Passion vs. Paycheck  ## Metadata - Author: [[Hidden Brain]] - Full Title: Passion vs. Paycheck - Category: #podcasts - URL: https://share.snipd.com/episode/62e73a3e-250b-4c32-be49-d3bbbd344de4 ## Document Notes ## Highlights - **Calling Shift From Sacred To Secular** - The cultural idea of a calling moved from religious to secular and peaked around the early 2000s. - Steve Jobs' message exemplifies the modern demand that work be a core source of identity and meaning. Transcript: Shankar Vedantam This is Hidden Brain. I'm Shankar Vedantam. In 2005, an intense man with a receding hairline and glasses stood before thousands of young graduates in Palo Alto, California. He wore dark robes with a hood of cardinal red. Truth be told, he joked, I never graduated from college, and this is the closest I've ever gotten to a college graduation. The speech that Steve Jobs gave at Stanford University's commencement that year didn't just transfix his audience. It would transfix countless other audiences in the years to come. His central message was simple. As he put it, your time is limited. Don't waste it living someone else's life. I'm convinced that the only thing that kept me going was that I loved what I did. You've got to find what you love. And that is as true for work as it is for your lovers. Finding a vocation, the inventor and entrepreneur said, was no less important than finding a soulmate. As with all matters of the heart, you'll know when you find it. And like any great relationship, it just gets better and better as the years roll on. And what if you hadn't found something you loved? What if the work you did paid the bills but didn't complete you? The iconoclastic leader of Apple Inc. Had very definite advice for the recent graduates. Your work is going to fill a large part of your life, and the only way to be truly satisfied is to do what you believe is great work. And the only way to do great work is to love what you do. If you haven't found it yet, keep looking and don't settle. ([Time 0:01:14](https://share.snipd.com/snip/1b6ca7d5-767a-442b-9c21-c6a6db746a14)) - **Gauguin's Radical Break And Cost** - Paul Gauguin left a stable job and moved to Tahiti to pursue art, later gaining posthumous fame. - His personal choices produced celebrated work but caused severe harm to his family and legacy. Transcript: Shankar Vedantam I want to start with a story of a stockbroker in the 19th century. What do we know about Paul Gauguin's life as a middle-class breadwinner in 19th century Paris? Yeah. Jennifer Tosti-Kharas So before he was the celebrated world-renowned artist that we know today, Paul Gauguin was a workaday stiff. He was a very reluctant stock trader. He hated this job, which required him to sort of dress up, put in long hours in the office. And he had this sort of, let's call it a side pursuit, maybe not quite a side hustle, but he certainly had this interest outside of work, which was art and both making art and collecting Art. Shankar Vedantam Perhaps you know someone like this, whose days are filled with work they detest. Perhaps you feel this way yourself and wonder how your life could have turned out differently. In 1882, the stock market crashed and Paul Gauguin lost his day job. He started to look for work that would pay the bills. Jennifer Tosti-Kharas He was in a situation that so many people do find themselves, where essentially to try to make a living, to try to support your family, I mean, truly in a subsistence way, he was casting About for any job he could find. Shankar Vedantam Even as he was struggling to make ends meet, Paul Gauguin kept returning to his passion. Art was his refuge, his calling. Would he ever be happy if he kept ignoring it? Jennifer Tosti-Kharas This is part of the power of this story in the sense of what if then to escape this drudgery, I made a radical break. Sort of if I'm not fulfilled here, might I be better fulfilled or more fulfilled elsewhere? And in a way, that's a lot closer to my passions. Paul Gauguin took a move that a lot of us wouldn't. So after trying various attempts to move and new cities, he left everything, truly chucked it all, upended his life and moved to Tahiti and pursued his art full time. Shankar Vedantam Paul Gauguin's life after he moved to Tahiti has been the subject of a great deal of scrutiny among modern biographers and art historians. In Tahiti, then a French colony, he lived for years with a 13-year girl. He impregnated a 14-year Such behavior would be both illegal and disturbing to people in many parts of the world today. But in the 19th century, the legal age for sexual consent in France and French colonies was 13. When Paul Gauguin died in 1903, he was still relatively unknown. Jennifer says that changed after his death. Jennifer Tosti-Kharas So we know now posthumously he was extremely successful. And again, he's one of those names that if you can name a few painters, famous painters, he's likely one of them. Shankar Vedantam So we remember Paul Gauguin today, not for his acumen as a stockbroker or his skill as a sales rep, but for his art. And his paintings, of course, hang in the world's preeminent museums today. Do you think at least in death, he would say that his gamble paid off? Jennifer Tosti-Kharas It would be hard not to say that, again, given the level of fame, notoriety, perhaps infamy, but, you know, that he's enjoyed. So Paul Gauguin was so influential, not only on his peers, so people like Vincent van Gogh, but on, you know, generations of artists to come, not least of which was Pablo Picasso. So art historians have drawn a direct line from the oceanic iconography and styling. You know, it's not completely naturalistic. It's somewhat abstract representation of form in Gauguin's Tahitian figures and the work of Picasso and Cubism. So in terms of his impact on art today as we know it, it's been massive. And therefore, it's very hard to look and say that this gamble didn't pay off. ([Time 0:06:07](https://share.snipd.com/snip/718dadeb-9a34-4fd4-8a24-07e67d45c0fb)) - **Marie Curie's Transformative Obsession** - Marie Curie devoted herself obsessively to scientific work and transformed radiology and medicine. - Her intense pursuit likely contributed to health damage leading to her death. Transcript: Shankar Vedantam This is the scientist Marie Curie. She was a physicist who was famously devoted to her work. Talk about the impact she had, Jennifer. Jennifer Tosti-Kharas Her impact today is widely felt in the use of radiology and medicine. She's completely changed the way we think about radioactivity, evident in so many domains of modern life. Yet on top of that, perhaps in a way that we wouldn't say Gauguin was, Marie Curie was a groundbreaker. So she was the first woman to win a Nobel Prize. She was not only that, the first person to win a Nobel Prize twice and in separate disciplines, so in physics and in chemistry. Similarly, her sort of all or nothing, all in commitment to doing the science, I think really sets it apart. So this is similarly someone who was somewhat obsessed with her work, put a great deal into it. And for her, it wasn't about, you know, fame or recognition. She famously gave away her Nobel Prize money to students who needed it. But she, you know, she was a towering figure who we recognize today. Shankar Vedantam And it's also clear, Jen, that looking back, we know that she paid an enormous price for her success as a scientist. In fact, many people believe she died as a result of her pursuit of the study of radioactivity. ([Time 0:11:24](https://share.snipd.com/snip/247f7216-79a1-4397-aa5c-7a1ef7a0f32e)) - **Calling Narrative Rose With Knowledge Work** - The 'find your calling' narrative rose with knowledge work where people can own projects and identities. - Google Ngrams show the phrase peaked around the time of Steve Jobs' 2005 speech. Transcript: Jennifer Tosti-Kharas The idea of work as a calling goes way, way back to the Protestant Reformation, where the idea was work could be a calling. And specifically, that calling was to the ministry, to the clergy to serve God directly. Now, work as a secular calling started to gain a foothold around the time that we started having knowledge work, so kind of 80s, 90s, where I have a project I can own, I can really invest Myself into. And so therefore, I really feel like it's more than just my job. It's me. I'm actually putting me into it. I would say that the time of this Steve Jobs commencement speech, 2005, is right around the time of peak calling. And if you look at Google ngrams for find your calling or find your passion, it really follows this. We see this like, you know, meandering line, very low, starting to uptick in the early 1980s, and then reaching this, you know, kind of insane, asymptotic, almost peak in right around The early 2000s. ([Time 0:17:32](https://share.snipd.com/snip/3c29887e-840f-42e4-8b79-8583b6e2452d)) - **Callings Boost Enjoyment And Effort** - People who experience work as a calling report higher job and life satisfaction. - Calling increases enjoyment of tasks, which in turn raises effort and engagement at work. Transcript: Shankar Vedantam So your own research has explored the effects of having a calling. You've examined the happiness levels of people who have found a calling. Are these people more engaged and satisfied with their work, Jay? Jennifer Tosti-Kharas Yeah, they are. So I conducted, along with my co-authors, Shassa Dubrow, Hannah Weissman, and Danny Heller, we conducted about a 20 year survey, quantitative survey of results on what it means to Experience work as a calling. And we found very strongly that people with strong callings report greater satisfaction with their work and their life. And engagement at work and some behavioral indicators of better performance, lower absenteeism. And these are sort of consistent findings across studies about how and why experiencing work as a calling matters. Shankar Vedantam So Steve Jobs argued that having a calling allows you to work hard because you're working with passion. Do you find that? Is that borne out by the evidence? Are people with a calling, do they have a higher propensity for hard work? Jennifer Tosti-Kharas Greater effort. And we found empirically that they do. So when you have a stronger calling, you will expend more effort on calling relevant tasks. ([Time 0:19:06](https://share.snipd.com/snip/74cee3d7-1c46-42aa-bbc4-bdb2451a8811)) - **Military Officers Find Resilience In Calling** - A survey of mid-career military officers showed stronger callings reduced perceptions of career plateau and increased commitment. - Callings can act as a psychological reserve that sustains commitment during stagnation. Transcript: Jennifer Tosti-Kharas Yeah, so this was with Marco DiRenzo and Ned Paoli. We conducted a survey of military officers, so they were mid-career sort of junior officers, but with supervisory experience. They had about 10 to 12 years of service on average in the military, and we specifically looked at their perception that they had hit a career plateau, which is just what it sounds like. So rather than this sense that I'm on the typical career upward trajectory that is desired, that I have leveled off. Basically this subjective sense that I'm not learning and growing and developing in my current career. And we found that the stronger their callings toward the military, the less likely they were to perceive that they were at a plateaued space in their career. That in turn drove their commitment to staying in the military as an organization. Shankar Vedantam So Steve Jobs told us that following a calling helped him be more creative. Is there any evidence that that is the case more generally? ([Time 0:21:45](https://share.snipd.com/snip/7fe0ca0b-d21a-4765-acdd-b0628e22a191)) - **Passion Can Skew Self-Evaluation** - Strong callings can distort self-assessment, causing people to overestimate talent and ignore feedback. - That distortion increases likelihood of pursuing risky careers despite limited ability. Transcript: Jennifer Tosti-Kharas Yeah, so I agree, first of all, that this is startling to people because we have so encoded this cultural message of do what you love. The money will follow. Find your calling. Love your life. These are literally book titles that seem so obvious. You know, I find my calling and the rest is gravy. But the reality looks very different and musicians are fascinating to study because this is both a quintessential arts field, right? We would imagine to see a lot of callings, a lot of passion toward music. It's something, you know, a lot of us do pursue in some way or another. But yet, it's a very fraught profession, because we know that not everyone will make it as a professional musician who might want to in the same way with sports, arts, lots of different Fields operate like this. So I've done a series of studies and there's a series of interesting studies that have been done by my co-author Shassa Dubrow. She is not only a professor at the London School of Economics, but she is a professional bassoonist. So she knows this world very, very well. So she has been studying musicians over a long career span, so 11 years and counting. And she started studying them when they were in a program for talented high school students who were talented at music. And she assessed their level of calling toward music, then saw years later, do they pursue music professionally or not? Maybe not surprisingly, the stronger the calling, the more likely people are to pursue music professionally down the road. But that one of the drivers of this is not their actual ability or talent level, as we might think, but their perception that they're talented. And that actually with strong callings, people tend to have overinflated perception of their own ability level. So they think they're better than they are. And that leads them then to pursue this pretty risky career path. So that started this idea that strong callings might lead to a sort of a career tunnel vision where you truly can't imagine that you won't make it because I love it so much. You know, how can I not be the one to break through when this is my passion and this is my calling. Shankar Vedantam What happens when people who have a calling get feedback or guidance from others that in fact they're not as good as they think they are? Jennifer Tosti-Kharas Yeah, they do not listen to that feedback. So Shasa and I have studied this specifically in the context of musicians. ([Time 0:30:56](https://share.snipd.com/snip/85de45a2-7aa3-4095-8f85-cac89fe4e716)) - **Heed Trusted Mentors' Honest Feedback** - Listen to experienced mentors even when passion runs high. - Weigh mentor feedback to avoid career tunnel vision that passion can produce. Transcript: Jennifer Tosti-Kharas Yeah, they do not listen to that feedback. So Shasa and I have studied this specifically in the context of musicians. And so what we found was the stronger musicians calling toward music, the less likely they were to follow the advice of their private music teacher. If that music teacher discouraged them from going into music, they would basically say, thank you very much. I disagree. I'm doing it anyway. And lest we think this phenomenon is limited to or specific to musicians or the context of music or the arts, we replicated this exact finding in a sample of business school students Who said the stronger their callings toward business, they would not accept the advice of a trusted mentor. We left this one more open, a trusted mentor, who discouraged them from going into business professionally. So there does seem to be something about strong callings. ([Time 0:33:51](https://share.snipd.com/snip/a525e0e6-b59c-46f3-bb90-34c144b3dc93)) - **Meaning Often Replaces Fair Compensation** - Society often expects workers to trade pay for meaningful work, creating vulnerability to exploitation. - People with strong callings accept pay cuts and unpaid labor, raising burnout and health risks. Transcript: Jennifer Tosti-Kharas Yeah, so you're absolutely right that the more prototypical calling-oriented professions, whether it's nonprofit work, helping work, international aid work, et cetera, tend To not be well-paid. In general, are being asked implicitly to accept a pay cut relative to, I'm going to go work for that big bank and not ask too many questions, right? Or I'm going to go work for, you know, I'm going to work in a big law firm and not ask too many questions about who my clients are, things like that. So already we have some sense that we ask people in society to take their love for what they're doing or the meaning they get from the work they do and substitute it for pay. But actually we have found this in my own research and the research of others that people with stronger callings will actually make financial sacrifices to do the work that they love Doing. So suddenly the question becomes, is this potentially overwork and that basically sets people up to be taken advantage of? Shankar Vedantam I mean, I was just going to ask you this question, which is, if someone is willing to work without really seeking or demanding pay because they're saying, I'm pursuing my passion, doesn't That make them vulnerable to exploitation? Jennifer Tosti-Kharas Absolutely. And so that's something that I teach my students about and that I would really caution people about because we've already said that these are the good workers and that these are people That organizations really want to attract and really want to retain. So then if on top of that, I really feel like, gosh, no matter what I ask you to do, I ask you to come in, you know, off hours, all times of day or night, always go above and beyond. Oh, I know I can't count on my other employees, but I can really count on you. At what point is it unfair? Is it exploitative? And is it pushing into a personal space, personal life in a way that is depleting and frankly would lead to burnout? And in fact, that is what some studies have found is that people with stronger callings, the good way to say it is they go above and beyond their ideal employees. The more negative way to say it is they will sacrifice personal time even when it's not paid. ([Time 0:36:11](https://share.snipd.com/snip/164fdbda-267f-47c8-882a-e7c1778fab72)) - **Washington Square Pianist's Tragic Outcome** - Colin Huggins performed classical piano publicly and became beloved but financially unstable. - His passion left him homeless, illustrating extreme economic risk of following a calling in the arts. Transcript: Jennifer Tosti-Kharas So he plays his 900-pound Steinway Baby Grand piano in the middle of Washington Square Park. So listeners may have stumbled upon him if they've walked through Washington Square Park and heard absolutely beautiful classical music being played. East Village over to Washington Square Park and the moving blankets he would lay under the piano and invite people to lay down under the piano so they could really experience the wall Of sound that he was producing. He was doing this by choice. He used to be a professional accompanist for the Joffrey Ballet. He described that once he got a taste of this public performance, he was hooked. So he experienced a strong passion for music, a strong passion for public performance. And it may come as no surprise, this was not a lucrative way to make a living even pre-COVID. But the last, and this is already representing a real sacrifice to do one's work, but the last that I had read about Colin Huggins, and again, he's this beloved, you know, piano man of The village and of Washington Square Park. This was in 2023. It was reported that he was homeless, so couldn't keep paying the rent in the East Village, and was in fact sleeping in the park on his piano. ([Time 0:39:35](https://share.snipd.com/snip/9c9e688e-88bb-4141-b138-3db07002fa6d)) - **Failure Hurts When Work Is Your Identity** - Failing in a calling feels different and more devastating than ordinary job loss because identity is tied to the work. - Unfulfilled calling leads to regret, depression, and a sense of wasted destiny. Transcript: Shankar Vedantam So many people switch jobs as new opportunities come up. And if you don't like one job, you can go to another job. But if you're pursuing a calling and your career doesn't work out as planned, this feels emotionally very different than someone who loses a job or gets laid off from a position. I mean, they're both painful. But if you feel like you're doing something you're called to do, and it's deeply meaningful to you, losing out on a career like that can be very, very difficult. Can you talk about this idea that in some ways, one of the downsides of having a calling is what happens when it doesn't work out as a career? Absolutely. Jennifer Tosti-Kharas So not everyone is lucky enough to find work in their calling to begin with. Similarly, not everyone is able to sustain work in the calling. And we can imagine that could be for a lot of reasons. People might not be able to pursue their callings. Has shown that this is a deeply psychologically aversive state filled with frustration, regret, depression, because it's not just I need a job, any job. ([Time 0:41:33](https://share.snipd.com/snip/26192d00-0d71-4f6b-99f4-31de28667472)) - **Callings Improve Output But Strain Relations** - Callings create intense focus that helps performance but harms relationships and teamwork. - Called workers may be hardest-working yet hardest to work with and quick to criticize others. Transcript: Shankar Vedantam Being swept up by a calling can make people obsessive and single-minded. That might be good for the pursuit of passion, but it can be harmful for other dimensions of life, from your physical health to your relationships with family and friends. So often, it seems, the good and the bad go hand in hand when it comes to callings. Jennifer Tosti-Kharas Yeah, I would agree with that. I think it's certainly something that people should be aware of and look out for. So I think just in the same way that it might be this excuse, you know, we don't have to pay you as much because you really love it. It also might be an excuse to not engage fully in areas outside of work because I'm so consumed by work and my work is the most important thing to me, at what point do other domains of life, Whatever those are, whether they're a family who depends on you, whether they're just self-care and the cultivation of a life outside work, which has merit and benefit, at what point Do those things suffer because of this kind of all-in sense of performing the work? Shankar Vedantam You know, it's interesting. We've talked about how the idea of having a calling is a romantic idea, but I can't stop seeing the parallels with actual romance. So a century or two ago, everyone thought that work was just how you paid the bills. But similarly, a couple centuries ago, marriage was a very prosaic institution designed primarily for raising children. Today, people want romantic partners who are going to be their soulmates. Similarly, people with a calling might ignore good advice. People in love can be blind to reason. And if having a calling that doesn't work out can leave you brokenhearted, failing at love can also leave you grief-stricken. And I'm wondering, psychologically, do you think in some ways there are the same processes that are at work here? Jennifer Tosti-Kharas Mind listeners who maybe haven't heard the Steve Jobs commencement speech in a while, he makes this parallel. He says, don't settle, keep looking until you found that perfect fit, that job that you love. It's as important in your work life as it is with your romantic partners. I mean, he makes this literal parallel to a romantic search and the search for the perfect job. And just as this is a very high bar to live up to in your romantic life, this is a very high bar for any job to live up to. And again, the research bears this out. So people with stronger callings tend to be, so again, we've talked about how they're all in on work. They're very, you know, go above and beyond, think outside of the box. The flip side of this is they can be extremely critical of those around them, whether it's the organization, leaders, co-workers, have a view that differs from their own. But in terms of actually performing the work, they can be quite tough to work with. ([Time 0:44:56](https://share.snipd.com/snip/9d42300e-2906-4757-8781-0a18b5438256)) - **Find Meaning Beyond A Single Vocation** - Do not treat lack of a calling as a moral failure; find meaning outside work when needed. - Seek or build meaningful aspects in jobs or life domains beyond career to nourish purpose. Transcript: Shankar Vedantam After doing all this research and thinking, where do you come down, Jen? Are callings a good thing? Yeah. Jennifer Tosti-Kharas So what I like to say is, absolutely, people should not be doing work that feels meaning less, that is drudgery, and that you believe is not just not making the world a better place, but Might actually be making the world a worse place. That's a fate I wouldn't want for anyone. That we as a society figure out how to offer jobs that provide a path to a sense that the work is meaningful and worthy of respect and human dignity. I do also want to say, I don't think that feeling that work is a strong calling is the only path or the best path to feeling that you have a good life or a meaningful life. So there are lots of people who find the meaning in their life outside of the meaning of their work. So in some ways, it's sort of like what you had said. If you're lucky enough to find work that you love doing, that's great. But I think for those who haven't yet found it, or maybe will never find it, don't despair. That's not a personal or moral failing as we sometimes make it seem. And there are so many ways that we can feel like we're making a difference and a contribution. It doesn't only need to be through our work or primarily through our work. ([Time 0:51:03](https://share.snipd.com/snip/56b3017e-d5cc-4b57-8b2b-e6dc96e1b432))