Perspectives With Lesley Sim  ## Metadata - Author: [[Crossword]] - Full Title: Perspectives With Lesley Sim - Category: #podcasts - URL: https://share.snipd.com/episode/0e356be3-b1cf-4ea4-81d7-45e225d2770e ## Document Notes ## Highlights - **Lesley Sim's WordPress Journey** - Lesley Sim started in WordPress around 2016 building her video agency site and then pivoted fully to WordPress plugin development after firing clients. - This transition led to creating Newsletter Glue and focusing on software products instead of client services. Transcript: Lesley Sim That's so cool. Yeah, I started on WordPress, I want to say maybe 2016, something like that. 2015, 2016. As most people start, I was looking for a cheap way to build a website. At the time, I think it must have been... So I was doing two things. I was helping a friend with their beer brewery business. Nice. And I was also trying to start a video agency. So the beer brewery ended up on Shopify and my video agency website ended up on WordPress so I kind of got a chance to play with the two um and I I guess I mean it's almost 10 years now but I still Distinctly remember what my experience was using WordPress. And I think that has kind of shaped a lot of my approach to building stuff to this day. Okay, yeah. So I should say, so I started, my first introduction to WordPress was around 2016, building my video agency. And then that kind of turned into a marketing agency and a design agency. And, you know, with small businesses, you kind of have to do it all. And so I built websites for clients over time. And it kind of got to the point where I was sick of having clients and I always thought about building software products and I've spoken to a lot of agency people and I think that's kind Of like a common thing they all dream about yeah yeah they're all sick of their clients yeah so I like I actually um well the harsh way to say is I fired my clients in 2019. Like I just kind of got rid of most of them and started figuring out this plugin world, plugin business. And I think it took us to about mid to late 2020 to launch our first one, which was Newsletter Glue. And that has a whole story in and of itself. ([Time 0:02:51](https://share.snipd.com/snip/60ab4370-00af-4eec-90ba-779bb73fb3c5)) - **Pandemic Boosted Newsletter Glue** - Newsletter Glue started as a pivot from a membership plugin during the pandemic, benefiting from more people being online. - Lesley and her co-founder built relationships remotely which helped spread adoption without in-person events. Transcript: Lesley Sim So I guess the medium length story is that we started in 2020. That must have been like at the start of COVID as well. And so everyone was online. And I think we benefited a lot from that. New Sutter Glue started as a pivot from a membership plugin that we were trying to build. And that didn't go so well because we were new players in an established niche. So it was hard to even get people to use to you know use a free version so we pivoted to newsletter glue which was kind of like a much smaller product but because there weren't many people Using it it became easier to convince the people who needed such a feature to try us because there weren't many options around um yeah and i think as i said like it was kind of during the Pandemic and that helped a lot with uh conversion because i'm over here in singapore and my co-founder is in egypt um and you know we weren't able to go to wordCamp US or WordCamp EU, ([Time 0:06:18](https://share.snipd.com/snip/baf1cc3c-efe2-47a6-9087-c9ad39d5c152)) - **Remote vs. In-Person Balance** - The pandemic made remote online relationships key, changing how WordPress developers build and support products. - This shift may result in future increased value placed on face-to-face meetings as they become rarer and more meaningful. Transcript: Lesley Sim Lesson for me as well. Jonathan Leslie, I want to just touch on that for just a moment because it's an interesting contrast that's just now clicking for me. Yeah, COVID gave us this opportunity where suddenly there was this all where we're not able to meet face to face. And what's occurring to me is with all this focus on AI now, I would argue that there is actually something like prickling up here around face to face becoming more valuable again, because Of this, like, how do you know what's real? Like kind of what's not like there's this it's an interesting contrast and timing here where we had this worldwide thing where we couldn't spend time in person and all and at least as I've been thinking about observing it's like it feels like there's a near-term future where there's a greater emphasis being placed on in person again which has its benefits but also Lesley Sim Trade-offs for those of us who've benefited so much from things like being accessible and online yeah i mean i couldn't put it better myself i'm curious to see yeah i i do think that um Yes there's like people appreciate that in real life part more, but I think there's also like a, you know, convenience thing that AI provides and also, you know, Zooms and Riverside Provides that once you have that, it's also hard to go back. ([Time 0:08:38](https://share.snipd.com/snip/c85d6306-d90f-4d7b-b8cc-8aa77a8369bd)) - **Learn and Structure Product Building** - Expect to learn marketing, design, and product management on the job when launching your product. - Avoid arbitrary feature building; structure product decisions thoughtfully over time. Transcript: Lesley Sim I didn't know anything about anything. I thought that I knew about marketing, but as it turns out, so my background before running my own agency business was I had worked at ad agencies for a number of years, and that was always Working on large global brands. And so I thought that I knew how marketing is done. But it turns out that doing marketing for a large global brand is very different from doing marketing for a small startup when nobody knows you. And I'd argue that you actually learn a lot more about marketing when you're doing a small startup because on the larger scale, like you're just kind of keeping the ship moving in the Right direction. But building the ship from the ground up is a whole other story. And it requires you to know, you know, like you have to make the strategic decisions. The strategic decisions weren't made for you by some CMO 10 years ago that you're just kind of like running the playbook for um yeah so you know even the thing that i thought i knew turned Out to not really even be that helpful um and so like we started in 2020 i didn't know anything about marketing turns out didn't know anything about design. Didn't know anything about product management. And those are all kind of skills that I've had to learn and teach myself over the years. And I think in particular, my lack of product management skills were frustrating for a bit when we first started working together. Because I'd be kind of doing the most annoying random, like, oh, hey, let's build this. Hey, let's build that. With no kind of reason other than I think people will like it. So I like to say that I've come ([Time 0:11:15](https://share.snipd.com/snip/23130952-86a3-41ee-8cfc-0946cd3a73e3)) - **Selling Newsletter Glue for Focus** - Managing two plugins, Newsletter Glue and EventKoi, simultaneously became mentally taxing for Lesley and team. - This workload led to deciding to sell Newsletter Glue to focus fully on EventKoi. Transcript: Lesley Sim So we've been building EventCoi for about just under six months now, or around six months. And it was getting harder and harder to manage the two because we'd be dealing with support requests, building new features, and then at the same time trying to build an entirely new Product. And we're a small team. It's always kind of been me and Ahmed, and then we have an additional developer who works on a contract basis part-time with us and then also a support person. And that's kind of always been about it. So juggling the two got more and more difficult. And yeah, so I think it kind of reached a tipping point early this year where I was like, I, you know, this is, I can't, I can't do it anymore. ([Time 0:13:57](https://share.snipd.com/snip/a7101281-1c4b-4baa-8080-ae20ea9afefb)) - **Platform vs Tool Plugins** - A platform plugin intentionally supports an ecosystem with extensibility and third-party add-ons, unlike tool plugins. - EventKoi is built as a platform to encourage integrations and ecosystem growth, contrasting with their earlier plugin Newsletter Glue. Transcript: Lesley Sim So one of the reasons is actually motivated by something we've talked about, or you've, like a concept. I'm going to attribute it to you, Jonathan. If it's good, thank you. We'll see. That's the concept of platform plugins versus tool plugins. And I think this was something that we kind of always found ourselves, like we kind of painted ourselves into a corner with Uceta Glue, which was kind of like a tool plugin masquerading As a platform plug-in. We were higher priced and we inevitably became one of the more important plug-ins for the publishers that used us. Just because... Jonathan You did carve out a niche for it, yeah. Lesley Sim Yeah, by the time we... By the time a publisher wanted to use us, they would have a large newsletter function in their company. And so we'd be kind of like a core piece of that puzzle. So it kind of felt like we were a platform plugin, but we weren't because there wasn't really any way to integrate with us. We tried for like a number of years because we have so many friends and partners in the WordPress world. But just the nature of how it works. Newsletter Glue connects email platforms like MailChimp into WordPress and lets you use the blog editor as the newsletter writer. So inevitably, when people wanted to connect to us, it actually makes more sense to connect directly to MailChimp because there's no piece that made sense for them to plug into us rather Than plug into MailChimp. And so when we were building the... When we were looking for a new plugin to build, we knew that we would definitely want to be a platform plugin because it just allowed so many more marketing opportunities, partnership Opportunities. Monetization Well, I mean, you could argue that tool plugins can be well-monetized as well, right? I would call it Yoast a tool plugin, and they're famously one of the larger, well-monetized plugins out there. Jonathan When I first started talking about this, I described it as like an ecosystem plugin. And one of the key hallmarks is this idea that you also have indirect monetization available. So in order to meet the test, it has to introduce a ([Time 0:16:25](https://share.snipd.com/snip/b35a8230-e0f8-4505-9b73-f0dbca4322e4)) - **Design Plugins That Feel Native** - Design plugins to feel native by embracing and extending WordPress UI rather than completely reinventing it. - Prioritize comprehensive, clean interfaces even if it means redesigning some parts for consistency and speed. Transcript: Luke Design point? And do you think that there's a design system here that could then actually be implemented by other plugins? Lesley Sim I mean, let me answer the second question first. So we actually thought about building kind of like a design system for plugins and trying to sell that you know kind of like tailwind ui and how they sell you know sell their design system But i think we figured that there wasn't but you couldn't monetize it that much because the audience is quite niche and i'm not sure how much they would be willing to pay if they're selling Plugins for $49 a year or $99 a year, how much are they going to be willing to pay for a design system that allows them to do that? So we dropped that idea. But I still think it's a fantastic idea, and if someone wants to do that, they should totally do that. So the first question, I think that's just like people build the things that are in their heads. And I think what you're seeing is like the manifestation of what is, of how me and Ahmed think about WordPress and plugins. So I think you're right, and people have pointed that out, that EventCoy has a completely different UI to WordPress. And frankly, for me, I did that because I feel like WordPress feels, it itself could use a fresh coat of paint. Bit stale. And I felt that, like, is it my first experience using WordPress in 2016? I still remember all my impressions of WordPress from then. And I remember thinking in 2016 that it looked kind of old and it you know you know somewhat then and that's 10 years ago um and um yeah so i just i just wanted to build something clean and Fast and we'd already been experimenting with react with newsletter glue um And once you kind of get used to that snappiness of everything, it's hard to go back to loading every single Page. Yeah, and then I think the other thing is also just, there were things, there were design things that we wanted to do, which WordPress didn't really allow you to do, like certain things, Right? And I feel like you see it sometimes with some plugins where they're like 90% WordPress and then 10% like random UI element because WordPress doesn't have it. And I find like, I don't, I just, I want it all to look kind of comprehensive. So for me, it's like, because of that, I'd rather do like a whole new thing. And then, so that's the design part. But I think for me and Agmet, like both, in our heads, the architecture is still the WordPress architecture. Because that's how we view WordPress, how we view how the plug-in should work inside of WordPress. And so that's kind of how you get that thing that you were talking about, Luke, where it looks not ([Time 0:22:20](https://share.snipd.com/snip/2d460fca-2cd1-4112-bc7a-7d8e556315e5)) - **Market by Building Community** - Use social media to build relationships within your community rather than direct sales. - Leverage those community connections to gain customers through word of mouth and partner sharing. Transcript: Lesley Sim And did you hate yourself, Luke, when you did that? Luke No, no, I don't mind. I don't mind because everybody's promoting everything on LinkedIn. That's all it's for, right? Lesley Sim Yeah, pretty much. I don't know. So I think with what I found with Newsletter Glue, when we started out, the idea was to build a Twitter following and somehow get customers from there. And I very quickly found out that that's not really how it works so the people that are on twitter are like fellow wordpress community people fellow wordpress plugin business owners Developers designers and so what i kind of stumbled into was realizing that social media, or at least Twitter, was a way to build relationships with the WordPress community who would Then in turn share it with potential customers via their blogs or their newsletters and so on and so forth. So that's kind of the playbook that I'm hoping to run this time around as well with EventCoy. You know, build up V2B relationships basically ([Time 0:28:11](https://share.snipd.com/snip/368332c6-3562-4a82-906f-37773816e03e)) - **Prioritize Features With User Feedback** - Launch new plugin features incrementally based on user feedback to stay on schedule. - Prioritize core event features first, postponing complex ticketing functionality for later releases. Transcript: Lesley Sim Overthink it so what are you currently thinking um i think with building something new and launching something new, it's hard to have a super rigid timeline because you never know what's Going to change. And as you talk to people, new information comes up and then that causes you to change direction and so on and so forth. So right now, we're hoping to launch in the first week of July. But again, things could change from there. But hopefully in July. That's kind of what we're hoping for. As an example of something that changed a lot, when we first started talking about EventCoy, and I got a handful of people using it. Honestly, like half the people immediately looked for tickets. Like, you know, how do I buy tickets to an event? And like, oh, that doesn't exist yet. And those people did it via screen recordings which was really helpful for me to kind of see people wandering around the plugin and like talking through and talking out loud I mean and That was like you know like seeing them wander around and being like where's tickets where's tickets you know is it me is it the plugin do you not have it yet or am I just not looking for it In the right places I was like oh okay we obviously have to build tickets now. And then that led us down a tickets rabbit hole for three months, not having done any e-commerce stuff before. And three months in, I was like, okay, if we continue down this path, we will not launch until the end of the year. And so we had to put tickets aside. We built like, I want to say, half of it, also knowing that the last probably 20% would be the, you know, take as long as the first 80%. So we'd already built half of it. And I was like, okay, we got to stop. And instead we chose to build out our event settings. So our event settings now, I think, are great, probably just as robust as the more established event plugins out there. So we've got like standard events, recurring events, a whole bunch of stuff there. And so we've chosen to do that instead and build that out and launch based on that first. And then hopefully maybe like end of the year, start tackling tickets again. ([Time 0:31:30](https://share.snipd.com/snip/dbf01050-18e6-49b7-9a7d-344f3ad4bf52)) - **Keep Pricing Flexible Early** - Don't overthink initial plugin pricing; start middle-market and adjust with feedback. - Frequent pricing changes are possible early when product discovery is ongoing and customer feedback is key. Transcript: Jonathan The initial efforts and conversations that I can imagine you could already be having with folks? Lesley Sim Yeah, so pricing, like you've mentioned, I haven't really, I'm not overthinking it and I haven't really thought about it. I think it would be like a day or two worth of like Googling to see what other event plugins are charging and then just being like, somewhere in the middle of that and trying to make it worthwhile For people who are purchasing a new plugin to the scene. So, you know, we obviously can't charge the same price as an established plugin because we don't have as many features. It's probably not going to be as stable. So, you know, you just kind of, you know, here's the starting price that makes sense. Jonathan You could tap into that hubris that you had at the beginning. Just, you know, double the price of what was out there it's it's a funny thing right you never know how it can work but it sounds like you're taking a sensible approach yeah i mean i'm taking Lesley Sim The approach that you can change your plugin pricing you know every other day when you're new because you don't have that much traffic nobody knows you and everyone understands that You're just starting so honestly I don't think the pricing on day one matters that much I could change it on day two I could change it on day three so it's more like putting it out there and Getting feedback I think that's always the most important thing so I see I see like uh so there's a slight sidetrack but i think worth talking about um i see launching as like a series of Like taking your thing to market um and in my case to market is just posting on Twitter and posting in Slack channels. And what you really want is just other people other than yourself to look at the plugin and give you their feedback with fresh eyes. And the same goes for pricing, right? So I probably just post it and if someone comments and says it's too expensive or too cheap or I was willing to pay twice the price, then that kind of gives me more information to then change The pricing. ([Time 0:34:52](https://share.snipd.com/snip/5c60bd53-118a-49ca-aaf2-4d0641322296)) - **Build for Extensibility Early** - Build your plugin with extensibility in mind by adding plenty of hooks and an API from day one. - This makes it easy for third-party developers to create add-ons and encourages ecosystem growth. Transcript: Luke Thinking about at all? Lesley Sim Yeah, for sure. I think a huge part of our success is going to come down to integrations and partnerships. Working with, you know, existing plugin owners and having really, really nice tight integrations that really make sense um and feel really seamless um i think oh i'm hoping that's Jonathan Kind of how we how we grow actually uh yeah what i think is gonna be interesting too leslie is i like i like your the the thought process of yeah you don't know what people are going to do you Want to you don't want to presume and you don't want to fix constraints i think at least in my experience though, sometimes people struggle with like a lack of imagination and there's Something that I'm interested in seeing of like, what does it look like for someone creating an ecosystem plugin to like put the, put the, cause you're going to come up with ideas, like Almost like put the ideas out there and make an explicit invitation where it's like, Hey, we, this is a friendly space. Like we want to work with you. Here's the ideas that we have so far that we haven't gotten to yet. If any of these trigger something for you, and if you've got other ideas, reach out, like we to sort of put a shingle out there that says we are consciously wanting to create an environment Where others can succeed in and we can share in that success together and help support. And that's something I haven't seen done much of. I think people get there eventually. And I think that there's something to be said about starting with that intentionality of saying, this is the direction we want to go. Here's what we have to offer so far, our thoughts and ideas, and just make that more direct invitation, which I think it sounds like you're already doing implicitly. And it'd be interesting to see it just be done more explicit. Luke Leslie, we should have known better than to get Jonathan started on ecosystem thinking. Lesley Sim I love talking to him about it. Jonathan We're excited to see what you actually do with this. And maybe Luke will be one of the early contributors to building things within EventCoy. Leslie, please go ahead. Sorry, let me just. Lesley Sim I think one of the, you know, even though we aren't necessarily, we don't necessarily have a laundry list of features. People to build on top of our plugin yet. I think we've gone into it on day one with that's kind of the intention. One of the key things about WordPress is its extensibility. And so when we built event cards with a thousand and one different hooks, with, you know, everything like code that's like easy to extend, easy to read, easy to understand. ([Time 0:41:23](https://share.snipd.com/snip/d581bf1c-48bd-4420-9221-d876f3c6c6f0)) - **Ultimate Frisbee Shaped Leadership** - Playing ultimate frisbee taught Lesley how to self-learn and lead without formal coaches. - Managing team logistics gave her confidence in handling complex organizational challenges in business. Transcript: Lesley Sim Sadly, I don't think Frisbee is super professional. I think there might be some leagues in the US that are trying to make a go of it. There are. Jonathan That's how I've heard of it. I heard of that before I knew that you had any involvement in it. Lesley Sim Yeah, but so I think my involvement is very much unprofessional, just enthusiastic amateur. I think I'm not sure how much it's affected how I run my business, but maybe it's probably given me confidence in certain things. Like training hard at Frisbee, learning how to learn, I would say, has been a huge thing that I got from playing Frisbee. When I when I started there weren't like so for example when I started there weren't much in the way of coaches if you if you are on a team with a coach you're quite lucky usually it's player Coaches and so you kind of have to spend a lot of time learning for yourself there isn't someone that's dedicated to giving you feedback and we spend a lot of time for example also doing All the admin to travel to a tournament so we don't have team managers or if the team manager exists it's going to be a player team manager and so we have to figure all that out and so learning How to do admin and like get a whole bunch of you know 20 something players off into a tournament get jerseys get hotels get cars all that stuff like um learning how to get all of that off The ground is i think very helpful for learning how to do anything in the world. And it gives you confidence. Once you're able to do that, it gives you confidence that you're able to do more things. You're confident in yourself. And I think that has helped me quite a bit. And also, I think that I was a bratty kid. And when I stepped up into leadership roles in Frisbee, it forced me to be less bratty because I realized, oh, I can't influence people and I can't inspire people and I can't teach people And coach people and do all these things because I'm too busy being selfish and wanting things to go my way and that's not how things work. Yeah, so I learned a lot of life lessons and had a lot of personal growth through Fisbee and I'm sure a lot of that has influenced the way I now operate my ([Time 0:48:07](https://share.snipd.com/snip/84cb34f2-2cad-4d96-a475-3ca61038d18d))