Perspectives With Zach Stepek  ## Metadata - Author: [[Crossword]] - Full Title: Perspectives With Zach Stepek - Category: #podcasts - URL: https://share.snipd.com/episode/92e065fa-9362-46c1-a4df-17b1b2d6cd11 ## Document Notes ## Highlights - **Zach's Entry to WooCommerce** - Zach started with e-commerce by building a WooCommerce site for a record label, combining his love of music and web technology. - This helped him deepen his expertise in WordPress and WooCommerce early in his career. Transcript: Jonathan Yeah. Zach Stepek So I started in the WordPress space, I'd say, it's got to be about 15 years ago now, almost 15 years. And I started out just helping a local agency owner who needed help building WordPress websites. And I dug in and really got to understand the platform. And then he came to me with needs for an e-commerce site. And I started looking at options and came across this thing that had just come out called WooCommerce. And, you know, started digging in and using that to build an e-commerce store for a record label. ([Time 0:03:07](https://share.snipd.com/snip/f7416a83-65d3-4726-98b8-8348a006f824)) - **Hosting Challenges for WooCommerce** - Larger ecosystem plugins often require special hosting considerations like disabling caching. - Hosting should focus on making WordPress fast even without caching for better overall performance. Transcript: Zach Stepek Well it's any of the the larger like ecosystem plugins i think you're the one that uh got me onto that term jonathan uh but these these ecosystem plugins tend to make their own rules once They're big enough, right? And so it can break things like caching. It can break things that, you know, maybe there are functions that require a version of PHP that's not the lowest possible denominator for WordPress or any of a number of other possibilities. And so I think that there's a lot to be said about trying to build a hosting environment that makes WordPress fast without caching, so that once you add that layer, it's just faster. But that ([Time 0:13:26](https://share.snipd.com/snip/9a2af031-799d-4116-8495-aea9ae3b4226)) - **WordPress Evolution & Gutenberg's Challenge** - WordPress evolved from a blogging platform to a versatile site and web app platform. - Gutenberg's role is unclear between content editing and supporting web app use cases. Transcript: Luke A platform to build any website and even web apps. You could build forums. You could build e-commerce. You could build anything on top of WordPress. Zach Stepek Yeah. Luke Then we went into this sort of third age where we are now. And I feel like it just, with the launch of Gutenberg, it started to get a bit more muddy and unclear. What is WordPress for? Is Gutenberg our, you know, renaissance of content writing and blogging? Or are we still focused on this web app idea, in which case, Gutenberg doesn't quite make as much sense in that context ([Time 0:19:45](https://share.snipd.com/snip/fd46d867-faf6-4677-9ae5-7f27d98c86bb)) - **Improve WooCommerce Order Storage** - Explore disabling compatibility mode in WooCommerce High-Performance Order Storage to improve performance. - Look out for data duplication as compatibility mode writes orders to two places, hurting speed. Transcript: Zach Stepek Don't start failing if they weren't written to use those crud classes I mentioned earlier. Right. So the compatibility mode, though, instead of reducing the number of calls and writes to the database that happen when an order is created, it actually increases the number of writes To the database because it's writing things to two places. And so while it is essential that it exists in order to make sure that stores don't break because plugin developers have done bad things, it also hurts performance before helping it. And as far as I'm aware, and I may be wrong on this, I need to get an update from the team that's working on HPOS. The last I knew there was no tool, CLI or otherwise, ([Time 0:25:30](https://share.snipd.com/snip/c686b54d-b958-411d-9213-a2f67d6f1ba0)) - **WooCommerce & Gutenberg UI Future** - WooCommerce is shifting towards utilizing Gutenberg blocks for UI. - Future improvements include breaking UI into smaller blocks and patterns, not single large blocks. Transcript: Jonathan New paradigm this new single application you know moat and some of that stuff is compatibility is one of the big drains in that context you have all these old plugins that have like specific Zach Stepek Uis that you know all these expectations yeah well that's part of the problem with gutenberg too is that you know there there are all these plugins that have their specific ui and how Do you make all of that that's existed, you know, in the context of TinyMCE and all these meta fields and other things you have to worry about, you know, how do you get these meta boxes to Exist in a Gutenberg context? And we're looking at the same things here with how do we get all of the plugin data or the plugins UI to exist in the the context of a WooCommerce admin screen. And so I think there are some difficult questions to answer there still. I think that as the team leans further into utilizing Gutenberg as a block editor and not as an editor where you throw an entire page in as one block, WooCommerce will start to grow in that Area. I love the thought of enforcing things needing to exist on a cart page or on a checkout page. I get that that's a thing, but I don't think the solution to that is one giant block. I think it's none of the blocks fully work in the browser outside of the editor until all the required pieces are in place, but let them put the pieces where they want, right? I think that's really the path forward. So when we really start to look at the block editor in the context of, you know, kind of that uh that block and element and modifier concept right that's why we called them blocks in the First place was so that we had individual independent reusable units of ui that's the whole reason that that was named a block so unless we really get to this BEM concept, and we start To solidify the fact that a block is just a building block as part of a pattern, and that patterns are building blocks as part of a page, and pages are building blocks as part of a site, and We really enforce where those lines are. Luke But what about templates, Zach? Templates? Zach Stepek Well, that's reusable patterns, right? Yeah. Luke You got to keep up, Luke. Zach Stepek Right, yep. But, you know, this is the important piece to really move forward with WordPress in general. And I think WooCommerce needs to do the same thing. So, you know, we can't have a block that's a whole pattern. It should be a pattern that's comprised of blocks. ([Time 0:29:14](https://share.snipd.com/snip/81e2ead0-2077-4144-81b6-9783d99ef0c3)) - **Complexity of WooCommerce Ecosystem** - Building a comprehensive WooCommerce solution is complex and requires a large team. - Alternatives like North Commerce, SaaS providers, and Shopify integrations complement WooCommerce's role. Transcript: Zach Stepek Uh but we don't really see that in e-commerce i think part of the problem is that it's a really difficult problem to solve, right? It is a complex system that has many interworking parts that all have to execute properly all the time. Things from inventory management to product data to order management, customer data management. All of these things have to work in concert. And building a solution that does all of that inside of WordPress is not easy. And, you know, I've been a fan of, you know, some of the alternatives that are emerging on the market, but they have their work cut out for them. Yeah i'm a fan of of north commerce i think kelly's doing great work to try and build a platform there um i'm a fan of you know some of the sass providers that are out there like equid and uh Even surecart who are trying to create alternatives um that aren't reliant on the WordPress site scaling necessarily as much as now. And I'm also a fan of these plugins from Shopify and from BigCommerce that allow you to bring some of their shopping experiences into the WordPress space. I think there's room for all three of those different layers. And I think that, you know, it's important that we allow each of them to have space, but building a solution as big as WooCommerce is hard. It's a very ([Time 0:32:32](https://share.snipd.com/snip/ecab5fcc-6543-405d-8440-91952a6d2951)) - **WooCommerce's Monetization Model** - WooCommerce monetizes via payment processing relationships, similar to Shopify and BigCommerce. - This monetization model supports development but includes transaction fees hidden from users. Transcript: Jonathan To what's done outside of the space. Like I think I, I'd agree with the heart of your contention that WooCommerce more than most is definitely more like business oriented in terms of what you're seeing and the very real Commercialization behind it. But it is still quite relative to... Luke No, I disagree. Jonathan, sorry. No, they're as dark pattern as anyone I've seen. App Store. Zach Stepek Go ahead. I think the point Jonathan's trying to make though is that even even the SaaS platforms in this space are just a giant sales funnel, right? Yes. They get you in on a $29 Shopify plan. You know, you don't realize at the time that you're signing up that if you use anything but ShopPay, where they make money off of their relationship with their processor, that if you Use anything else, you're going to be paying 2% more on every transaction. I It's because you didn't read the fine print. You didn't see that part. So if you want to support PayPal or Klarna or Affirm or anything that's not just built into ShopPay, Affirm is now. But if you want to support any of those other processors at their $29 a month plan, you're giving away 2% of your business. And, you know, that's the reason why it was so attractive to WooCommerce to build WooPayments, because that's a way to monetize a relationship with the customer in a way that they need Anyway, because everybody needs a payment processor. And they make money off of those transactions, which helps to fund the development. It's the same thing Shopify is doing. BigCommerce does the same things. You know, it's just, it's kind of par for the course in the e-commerce space now. And we don't even want to talk about what Adobe does to market all of what they sell ([Time 0:38:08](https://share.snipd.com/snip/9de27c07-4810-4f36-843f-9fa5cc7cb12e)) - **Simplify WooCommerce Onboarding** - Simplify WooCommerce onboarding by reducing pushy upsells and aggressive marketing. - Focus on calm, straightforward setup for users, especially smaller store owners. Transcript: Jonathan Really well. Can I collect a payment processor? And suddenly people were building applications because it was easy. Luke Well, the thing is, I don't know if Woo is overkill on a technical level, right? Sure. Maybe it is. And then Woo falls into this difficult spot where it's not, I mean, I think it probably is these days, but it has this reputation for not being good enough for huge, big enterprise stores And then too massive for small stores. And so it feels a large niche, but a niche nonetheless. But I think we could speak to a lot of the smaller e-commerce owners just by simplifying the onboarding, just by being less pushy, just by being a little more calm, you know, calm. Zach Stepek Yeah, I think that's a fair point. I think one of the great things about WooCommerce when it first started was that it was this blank slate that ([Time 0:43:18](https://share.snipd.com/snip/2c3292ac-6d69-4342-b02c-9c0115ee3e41)) - **WooCommerce Hosting Support Strategy** - Provide exceptional support to WooCommerce customers beyond just WordPress install issues. - Use dedicated hardware and modern infrastructure for better e-commerce hosting performance. Transcript: Jonathan The WooCommerce space? Zach Stepek Well, I think we look at it in much the way we look at the WordPress space as a whole. And that is our primary focus and will remain our primary focus is providing really amazing otherworldly support for our customers. Um, and I say that because I've only been here a month and I can tell you that I have never seen net promoters, uh, score scores as high as I'm seeing that big scoots. Our customers love our support team. It's kind of nutty to see an NPS score that average for the year right now is over 95. Jonathan But Zach, if I may, how much of that do you feel like is a, and I'm happy to hear that, how much of that is a symptom or a necessary result of things being hard in WordPress or in the e-commerce Context? Zach Stepek I don't know if that's really a symptom of that as much as it is just we help at a level that some hosts aren't willing to. You know a lot of hosts have this um thought that support should be limited to the wordpress install and the environment it lives in okay okay and that's about it right yep so there's a Jonathan Fill you're arguing that there's like you have a there's like a um a philosophical difference there or there is yeah it's like uh let's look more at the what they're trying to do rather Zach Stepek Than just like the specific uh technical thing yeah and so i think for for us the way we look at woocommerce is how can we best support the customers that are using it and you know the store Owners who need our support team and you know if we can win on the support side, then we're winning in general. Because when things go wrong, that's when people want to know their host has their back. Yeah, sure. Yep. And so we're really good at winning there. And, you know, we also just have really great hardware. We have our own data center, which a ([Time 0:45:41](https://share.snipd.com/snip/7a904e75-edf4-40e0-ae9f-5a328d922400))