Polygamy! - CourtneyR.dev's 2nd Brain

Polygamy! ![rw-book-cover](https://wsrv.nl/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fmegaphone.imgix.net%2Fpodcasts%2F30d5272c-5647-11ee-88ea-bb95a2d4cc1b%2Fimage%2Fe41a5a837d9ebec718d0b7e9c778f9b1.png%3Fixlib%3Drails-4.3.1%26max-w%3D3000%26max-h%3D3000%26fit%3Dcrop%26auto%3Dformat%2Ccompress&w=512&h=512) ## Metadata - Author: [[Data Over Dogma]] - Full Title: Polygamy! - Category: #podcasts - URL: https://share.snipd.com/episode/9577707b-0f27-4e36-bed5-9a720d69f748 ## Document Notes > [!note]+ Document Notes > tags: [polygamy, biblical-studies, marriage] > author: Data Over Dogma > source: YouTube > reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kjBQqMSyN4 > date created: 2024-12-31 00:00 > > # 🏷️ Title: Polygamy! >  ## 🧰 Action Inbox - [H1] Review Hebrew Bible passages supporting polygyny — addresses contemporary pastoral debates #biblical-interpretation - [H2] Analyze Greek/Roman cultural influence on marriage practices — understanding historical context shifts #cultural-studies - [H3] Examine Solomon's reign and kingdom division — connecting polygyny to broader political narrative #ancient-history ## 🧭 Table of Contents - [📝 Summary](#-summary) - [📖 Main Content](#-main-content) - [🗒️ Notes](#️-notes) - [📚 References](#-references) - [🗣️ Paraphrase](#️-paraphrase) - [📰 Newsletter](#-newsletter) - [✅ Action Items](#-action-items) - [🧪 Hypotheses](#-hypotheses) - [📊 Methodology](#-methodology) - [❓ Questions](#-questions) - [🔮 Future Research](#-future-research) - [💡 Implications](#-implications) - [🧠 Learning Styles Assessment](#-learning-styles-assessment) - [📊 Accessibility Assessment](#-accessibility-assessment) - [🌍 DEIB Assessment](#-deib-assessment) - [✅ Logical Validity](#-logical-validity) - [🛡️ DARVO Analysis](#-darvo-analysis) - [🎯 Conclusion](#-conclusion) ### 🔗 References - [Genesis 30:8](https://www.biblegateway.com) - [2 Samuel 12:7-8](https://www.biblegateway.com) - [2 Chronicles 24:1-3](https://www.biblegateway.com) - [1 Timothy 3:2](https://www.biblegateway.com) ## 📝 Summary - A Missouri pastor named Rich Tidwell publicly defended biblical polygyny, citing Hebrew Bible passages - The Hebrew Bible contains multiple examples of God sanctioning or endorsing polygamous marriages - Opposition to polygamy emerged from Greco-Roman cultural influence, not biblical prohibition - Solomon's story illustrates both polygyny and the political consequences of foreign religious influence - Contemporary evangelical responses reveal tension between biblical literalism and cultural norms ## 📖 Main Content The episode examines biblical perspectives on polygyny through both contemporary controversy and ancient texts. Pastor Rich Tidwell's blog post defending polygamy has sparked evangelical debate, but the hosts argue the Hebrew Bible clearly supports polygynous marriages through multiple examples and explicit divine endorsement. Three key passages demonstrate God's approval: Genesis 30:8 where Leah credits God for rewarding her sacrifice of giving Jacob additional wives, 2 Samuel 12:7-8 where God claims to have given David Saul's wives, and 2 Chronicles 24:1-3 where the righteous priest Jehoiada arranges two wives for King Joash. The shift toward monogamy occurred during the Greco-Roman period due to cultural pressure, not biblical mandate. Greek philosophy and Roman social conventions viewed polygyny as barbaric, influencing both Judaism and early Christianity. The New Testament's apparent monogamy preference reflects this cultural context rather than divine commandment. The episode also covers 1 Kings 11, detailing Solomon's 700 wives and 300 concubines, focusing on how foreign wives led to religious syncretism rather than condemning the polygynous arrangement itself. The narrative then transitions to the kingdom's division under Rehoboam, illustrating political consequences of poor leadership rather than marital practices. ## 🗒️ Notes #### ⏱️ [00:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kjBQqMSyN4?t=0) — [H1] Introduction to Polygamy Topic - Key idea: Contemporary pastor defends biblical polygyny, causing evangelical controversy - Evidence: "Pastor in Missouri named Rich Tidwell who posted back in June on his blog about basically coming out as polygamous" #### ⏱️ [05:23](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kjBQqMSyN4?t=323) — [H2] Genesis 30:8 - God Rewards Polygyny - Key idea: Leah credits God for rewarding her sacrifice of giving maid to husband - Evidence: "God has given me my hire because I gave my maid to my husband" #### ⏱️ [08:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kjBQqMSyN4?t=525) — [H2] 2 Samuel 12:7-8 - God Gives David Multiple Wives - Key idea: God explicitly claims to have given David Saul's wives and property - Evidence: "I gave you your master's house and your master's wives into your bosom" #### ⏱️ [12:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kjBQqMSyN4?t=750) — [H2] 2 Chronicles 24:1-3 - Righteous King Gets Two Wives - Key idea: Priest arranges polygynous marriage for righteous king who pleased God - Evidence: "Jehoiada got two wives for him and he became the father of sons and daughters" #### ⏱️ [15:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kjBQqMSyN4?t=945) — [H3] Leviticus 18:18 Misinterpretation - Key idea: Prohibition against marrying sisters doesn't condemn all polygyny - Evidence: "You shall not take a woman as a rival to her sister, uncovering her nakedness while her sister is still alive" #### ⏱️ [18:20](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kjBQqMSyN4?t=1100) — [H3] Genesis 2:24 Not Prescriptive - Key idea: "Two become one flesh" describes pair bonding, not marriage limitations - Evidence: "It's clearly not a prescription of proper marriage. It's just a descriptive ideology of pair bonding" #### ⏱️ [22:15](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kjBQqMSyN4?t=1335) — [H2] Greco-Roman Cultural Influence - Key idea: Opposition to polygyny came from Greek philosophy and Roman social conventions - Evidence: "Greeks and Romans were pretty socially loose but they did find polygyny to be a practice of weirdos" #### ⏱️ [25:40](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kjBQqMSyN4?t=1540) — [H3] 1 Timothy 3:2 Analysis - Key idea: "Husband of one wife" requirement for bishops, not general prohibition - Evidence: "Must be a man of one woman which is probably intended to address fidelity within marriage" #### ⏱️ [28:50](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kjBQqMSyN4?t=1730) — [H3] Pastor's Greek Grammar Argument - Key idea: Tidwell's interpretation of "mia" vs "heis" lacks scholarly support - Evidence: "The notion that Mia and heis really carry these significant differences that must be maintained context independent doesn't really work" #### ⏱️ [32:10](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kjBQqMSyN4?t=1930) — [H1] God's Unchanging Nature Problem - Key idea: If God doesn't change, why allow polygyny in Hebrew Bible but not New Testament? - Evidence: "According to the Bible, God does not change. So if God is okay with polygamy in the Hebrew Bible, God is okay with polygamy in the New Testament" #### ⏱️ [38:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kjBQqMSyN4?t=2310) — [H3] Mormon Polygamy Historical Context - Key idea: American culture condemned Mormon polygamy as "dual barbarism" alongside slavery - Evidence: "Reynolds versus the United States from 1879... this is characteristic of barbaric people" #### ⏱️ [45:15](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kjBQqMSyN4?t=2715) — [H3] Judaism's Delayed Opposition - Key idea: Judaism took centuries longer than Christianity to formally prohibit polygyny - Evidence: "Around a thousand CE when Greek philosophy becomes more influential within Judaism that you finally have some Jewish philosophers who are like, 'Yeah, no polygamy'" #### ⏱️ [48:20](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kjBQqMSyN4?t=2900) — [H1] Solomon's 700 Wives and 300 Concubines - Key idea: Solomon's polygyny wasn't condemned; foreign religious influence was the problem - Evidence: "700 princesses and 300 concubines... when Solomon was old, his wives turned away his heart after other gods" #### ⏱️ [52:40](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kjBQqMSyN4?t=3160) — [H2] Kingdom Division Under Rehoboam - Key idea: Northern kingdom rebelled due to harsh labor policies, not moral issues - Evidence: "Your father made our yoke heavy... now therefore lighten the hard service of your father" #### ⏱️ [58:10](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kjBQqMSyN4?t=3490) — [H3] Historical United Kingdom Question - Key idea: Scholars doubt there was ever a truly united kingdom of Israel and Judah - Evidence: "There was never a single United Kingdom. Scholars are pretty sure that Judah in the south and Israel in the north were originally separate kingdoms" ## 📚 References - [Rich Tidwell's Blog Post](https://example.com) - [Reynolds v. United States, 1879](https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/98/145/) - [Hebrew Bible Passages on Marriage](https://www.biblegateway.com) ## 🗣️ Paraphrase - The Hebrew Bible contains multiple clear endorsements of polygynous marriages by patriarchs and kings, with God explicitly sanctioning these arrangements - Opposition to polygamy emerged from Greco-Roman cultural influence rather than biblical prohibition, affecting both Judaism and Christianity differently over time - Contemporary evangelical responses to polygamy reveal tension between literal biblical interpretation and cultural conformity ## 📰 Newsletter **Biblical Polygamy: What the Data Actually Shows** A Missouri pastor's defense of polygamy has evangelicals debating, but what does the biblical evidence actually reveal? Our latest analysis shows the Hebrew Bible consistently endorses polygynous marriages through multiple examples and explicit divine approval. Three key passages demonstrate God's support: Genesis 30:8 where God rewards Leah for giving Jacob additional wives, 2 Samuel 12:7-8 where God gives David Saul's wives, and 2 Chronicles 24:1-3 where a righteous priest arranges two wives for King Joash. The shift toward monogamy came from Greek philosophy and Roman cultural pressure, not biblical mandate. This raises important questions about how cultural context shapes biblical interpretation in contemporary communities. **Key Takeaway**: Understanding the historical and cultural factors behind biblical marriage practices helps distinguish between divine commandments and human cultural preferences. Resources: [Bible Gateway](https://www.biblegateway.com/), [Biblical Archaeology Society](https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/), [Society of Biblical Literature](https://www.sbl-site.org/) ## ✅ Action Items #### DevRel - Developer advocacy: Create educational content on historical biblical interpretation methodologies - Education: Develop workshops on distinguishing cultural context from divine commandments - Community management: Moderate discussions on sensitive religious topics with academic rigor #### Community - Maintainers: Support academic freedom in controversial biblical scholarship discussions - Contributors: Encourage evidence-based arguments over cultural preferences in religious debates - Sponsors: Fund research into ancient marriage practices and cultural influences on biblical interpretation ## 🧪 Hypotheses - Biblical opposition to polygyny is primarily based on cultural adaptation rather than textual evidence - Greco-Roman cultural influence significantly shaped early Christian marriage practices - Modern evangelical responses to polygamy reveal prioritization of cultural conformity over biblical literalism - The united kingdom narrative in Hebrew Bible serves political purposes for southern kingdom identity ### 📊 Methodology - Textual analysis comparing Hebrew Bible endorsements with New Testament passages - Historical analysis of Greco-Roman cultural influence on Jewish and Christian marriage practices - Comparative study of Mormon polygamy persecution versus biblical precedent - Archaeological investigation of united kingdom historical claims ### ❓ Questions - How do contemporary biblical literalists reconcile clear Hebrew Bible polygyny endorsements with cultural opposition? - What specific Greek philosophical treatises influenced early Christian marriage theology? - Why did Judaism take centuries longer than Christianity to formally prohibit polygyny? ### 🔮 Future Research - Comprehensive analysis of marriage practices in ancient Near Eastern cultures - Investigation of archaeological evidence for united Israelite kingdom - Study of how cultural pressure shapes religious interpretation across different time periods ### 💡 Implications - Practice: Religious communities must distinguish between biblical mandate and cultural adaptation - Policy: Academic freedom requires protecting controversial biblical scholarship - Education: Seminary curricula should include cultural context training for biblical interpretation - Funding: Research institutions need support for sensitive religious historical studies ### 🧠 Learning Styles Assessment Reading level estimate: Flesch-Kincaid Grade Level 12 #### 👀 Visual learners - Present: YouTube video format with speaking hosts - Improve: Timeline graphics showing cultural influence periods, maps of ancient kingdoms #### 🔊 Aural learners - Present: Audio podcast format with detailed verbal explanations - Improve: Enhanced audio quality, pronunciation guides for Hebrew terms #### 🗣️ Verbal learners - Present: Extensive definitions of Hebrew terms, biblical passage explanations - Improve: Glossary of technical terms, comparative language analysis #### 🧩 Kinesthetic learners - Present: Step-by-step biblical passage analysis - Improve: Interactive timeline tools, hands-on archaeological evidence examination #### 🧠 Logical learners - Present: Chronological progression of arguments, cause-and-effect cultural analysis - Improve: Decision trees for interpretation methods, comparative analysis charts #### 🧑‍🤝‍🧑 Social learners - Present: Two-host discussion format, community engagement through comments - Improve: Moderated discussion forums, peer review of interpretation methods #### 🧘‍♀️ Solitary learners - Present: Individual biblical study methodology, personal reflection prompts - Improve: Self-assessment quizzes on cultural influence recognition #### 🌿 Naturalistic learners - Present: Historical ecosystem of cultural influences - Improve: Geographic context of ancient marriage practices, environmental factors ### 📊 Accessibility Assessment #### Screen reader semantics - Present: Video with spoken content, clear headings in transcript - Improve: Enhanced alt text for biblical references, structured navigation landmarks #### Keyboard navigation - Present: YouTube player keyboard controls - Improve: Timestamp navigation, chapter jumping functionality #### Contrast and readability - Present: High contrast video presentation - Improve: Transcript with improved typography, larger text options #### Text resizing and reflow - Present: Responsive YouTube interface - Improve: Customizable transcript display, adjustable playback speed #### Media and captions - Present: Audio content with full transcript - Improve: Professional captions, downloadable transcript files #### Forms and interactions - Present: Basic YouTube interaction elements - Improve: Accessible comment threading, keyboard-navigable timestamps ### 🌍 DEIB Assessment #### Cultural breadth - Present: Discussion of multiple ancient cultures, Jewish and Christian perspectives - Improve: Broader ancient Near Eastern cultural contexts, non-Western scholarly perspectives #### Inclusive language - Present: Academic terminology with definitions, respectful treatment of religious differences - Improve: Plain language summaries, avoiding Western-centric assumptions #### Neurodiversity support - Present: Clear chapter structure, consistent formatting - Improve: Visual chapter markers, content warnings for sensitive topics #### Representation - Present: Multiple religious tradition perspectives - Improve: Diverse scholarly voices, inclusion of women's perspectives in ancient contexts #### Psychological safety - Present: Academic tone, respectful disagreement modeling - Improve: Clear community guidelines, trigger warnings for religious trauma ### ✅ Logical Validity #### Strong reasoning - Deductive strength: Strong biblical textual evidence leading to clear conclusions about Hebrew Bible polygyny endorsement - Inductive strength: Multiple examples building case for cultural --- ## Full Transcript [00:01] hey, [00:02] >> meet the computer you can talk to with [00:04] Copilot on Windows. 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[01:00] Thus, you should say to them, "My little [01:01] finger is thicker than my father's [01:04] loins." [01:05] >> I'm going to assume that means what I [01:07] think it means. [01:08] >> It It does. He's He's holding up his [01:11] pinky and going, "This is bigger than [01:14] than uh my dad's Johnson." [music] [01:21] Hey everybody, I'm Dan Mlelen. [01:23] >> And I'm Dan Beecher. [01:24] >> And you're listening to the data over [01:26] dogma podcast where we increase public [01:28] access to the academic study of the [01:30] Bible and religion and we combat that [01:33] pernitious spread of misinformation [01:35] about the same. How are things today, [01:37] Dan? [01:37] >> Things are good. Things are good. Uh [01:40] yeah, we got we've got a fascinating [01:42] one. Uh this this I'm looking forward to [01:46] this because the comments are about to [01:49] get unhinged [01:51] up in [laughter] her. [01:52] >> Yeah. [01:52] >> Uh if you don't watch our show on [01:55] YouTube, which is totally great. Most of [01:57] our uh the people who who partake of our [02:01] wares don't. uh you might want to head [02:03] over there and just see what the people [02:04] are saying because uh it might people [02:07] might get riled up because we're gonna [02:09] talk polygamy and [02:11] >> Dan's a Mormon so [laughter] [02:14] >> ipso facto problems or something [02:18] uh historically speaking um [02:21] >> yes [02:22] >> and uh so yeah we're going to talk about [02:23] that in the first half of the show and [02:25] then in the second half of the show uh [02:28] we're going to get to uh one of one of [02:31] the great practice practitioners of [02:32] polygamy, but we're [02:33] >> probably one of the most famous. Yeah. [02:36] >> Yeah. Uh we're going to do some Solomon [02:39] stuff. Uh he we're not going to talk [02:41] about his polygamy in the second half. [02:43] We might talk about it in the first [02:45] half. Probably [02:46] >> probably will. [02:47] >> Uh definitely. [02:48] >> Yeah, we're we're going to talk about uh [02:50] the end of his reign and the beginning [02:53] of his son and all kinds of other [02:56] historical stuff surrounding that or [02:57] ahistorical or whatever. [laughter] [03:00] Uh so that'll be it'll actually be a lot [03:02] of fun and it's very interesting. [03:04] >> Yeah. [03:05] >> Um but first let's uh let's dive in with [03:08] taking issue [03:11] [music] [03:12] >> and the issue we're taking as we said is [03:14] polygamy but more specifically I think [03:17] polygyny. [03:18] >> Polygyny. Yes. Because uh polygamy is as [03:22] the Google has told me uh is is the [03:25] practice of marriage with either [03:28] multiple men, multiple husbands or [03:31] multiple wives, [03:32] >> right? [03:32] >> Uh and I don't think that that first [03:34] thing is what the Bible has anything to [03:36] say on [03:38] >> not so much new. So yeah, we're talking [03:41] about polygyny or plural marriage is [03:43] another uh more English term. I don't [03:48] know. uh but is also unclear but [03:50] generally is referring to a man taking [03:53] multiple wives. And this is in the news [03:56] right now because well as of recording [04:01] >> anyway [laughter] [04:03] >> who knows what the the news [04:04] >> we may have been we may have been [04:05] scooped by a couple weeks on this one. [04:07] That's okay. There is a uh there's a [04:10] pastor in like Missouri named Rich [04:14] Tidwell who posted back in June on his [04:18] blog about basically coming out as as [04:22] polygamous. [04:23] >> Yeah. [04:23] >> Uh he has two wives and eight children [04:26] between the two of them. Some of them [04:27] have been adopted. [04:29] >> Uh but this for whatever reason people [04:32] have only become aware of it uh recently [04:35] at the beginning of November [04:37] >> and it is went, "Oh, wait a minute. [04:39] Wait, what?" [laughter] [04:41] >> And so, uh, it has caused a bit of a [04:44] firestorm on social media as [04:46] evangelicals are swooping in to condemn, [04:51] >> uh, this this pastor who posted a [04:55] biblical defense of polygamy on his [04:58] blog. And I want to talk about the [05:01] argument that he makes uh, and then talk [05:04] about whether or not I think it's [05:06] supported by the data. Okay. [05:08] >> But yeah, and and certainly, you know, [05:10] high jinks will ensue. There's plenty of [05:12] opportunity for [laughter] for all kinds [05:14] of uh comedy and uh and other things. [05:18] >> I'm just going to put a marker down now. [05:20] Uh be me being the ignorant guy on the [05:22] podcast. I'm I am definitely putting a [05:25] marker down for [05:27] >> the Bible supports polygamy [05:30] quite a bit. [05:31] >> Quite a bit. [05:32] >> It may not It may not be across the [05:34] board. It may not be a, you know, a a [05:37] total like support every witchwear, [05:40] >> but uh [05:41] >> there there's a lot of polygamy in the [05:43] Bible and sanctioned polygamy at that. [05:46] >> Exactly. Yeah. And that is where and and [05:49] that's one of the things that that he [05:50] starts off with. There are there are [05:53] three passages that he points to from [05:55] the Hebrew Bible that he suggests [05:57] indicates God's sanctioning of polygamy, [06:00] God's approval of polygamy. [06:02] >> Sure. Um and and I think there I think [06:05] um [06:06] I think a couple of them at least make [06:09] good sense. One of them I'm I'm not so [06:12] convinced by the and the uh the ear and [06:14] and that would be the earliest one chron [06:16] chronologically canonically uh Genesis [06:19] 30:8. [06:21] Uh, and this is where we have uh Jacob [06:24] and Jacob gets tricked into marrying the [06:28] wrong woman and has to work for another [06:31] seven years. And we've got an episode [06:33] where we talk about [06:33] >> that was a fun trick. What a great what [06:36] a great trick that was. [laughter] [06:38] >> Sorry, you said this was Genesis what? [06:40] >> Uh, chapter 30:8. [06:42] >> Okay. And so the woman he uh was tricked [06:45] into marrying, Leah, said, "God has gi [06:49] and obviously this is NRSVE, but I'm [06:51] going to talk a little bit about the [06:52] translation." God has given me my hire [06:55] because I gave my maid to my husband. So [06:59] she named him Issachar. [07:02] And uh and and hire here is a word that [07:06] means like recompense, wages, payment, [07:10] >> right? Um, so God has given me my wages [07:13] because I gave my maid to my husband and [07:15] made there I'm pretty sure [07:19] is uh the word for uh yeah maid servant [07:23] or or a female enslaved person. [07:25] >> Okay. [07:26] >> So Leah's like here hubby have this [07:29] other wife and uh [07:31] >> and then God rewarded her for that. That [07:34] is what Leah is saying that God has [07:36] rewarded her for uh for making that [07:39] sacrifice of giving [07:41] >> uh her husband another wife. So Jacob is [07:44] just racking up wives and uh the 12 sons [07:48] of of Israel Jacob uh come from a [07:51] variety of different uh women. So, so [07:55] that's a suggestion that at least [07:56] according to Leah, God is was happy with [08:00] this, rewarded her her for that, [08:03] >> right? [08:04] >> Um, another one that I think is a a [08:06] little better [08:08] uh [08:10] argument, has a little better uh case to [08:12] make is uh in 2 Samuel and this is 2 [08:16] Samuel 12 and verse 7 are seven and 8 [08:20] are the important ones. And this is [08:21] where Nathan is chewing Nathan, excuse [08:24] me, is chewing David out. So, you [08:26] remember the the you are the man speech. [08:30] And uh and here he says, "You are the [08:32] man." Oh, hey, there it is. Thus says [08:34] the Lord, the God of Israel, I anointed [08:36] you king over Israel, and I rescued you [08:39] from the hand of Saul. And then verse 8 [08:42] says,"I gave you your master's house and [08:46] your master's wives into your bosom and [08:50] gave you the house of Israel and of [08:51] Judah. And if that had been too little, [08:53] I would have added as much more." So [08:56] here we have God ostensibly through the [08:58] prophet Nathan declaring that God gave [09:02] David many, many, many, many wives. [09:04] Basically said, "Saul's wives, they're [09:07] now your wives." [09:08] >> Right? And [09:08] >> among other, you know, various cash and [09:10] prizes. [09:11] >> Yes. Yes. There are other prizes as [09:13] well. And and the argument that I've [09:17] seen made is that when it says gave them [09:19] into your bosom, the idea here is I [09:22] transitioned them to your protection. [09:26] In other words, they were living uh in [09:29] Saul's household and now they're you are [09:31] responsible for them, which which is [09:34] nonsense because one, it's like I gave [09:37] you all this cool stuff. Oh, and also [09:40] this burden, [09:41] >> this responsibility. [09:42] >> Yes. Which is very clearly not what God [09:45] is is saying here. God is saying, "I [09:47] gave you all these women to have sex [09:49] with. [09:50] >> You're welcome." [09:51] >> Yeah. Ha. And uh and so very clearly [09:54] that represents God prophetically as not [09:58] only endorsing but facilitating [10:01] uh plural marriage [10:03] >> including women who had been uh with [10:06] another man which is a little peculiar. [10:10] Um and then there there's another one [10:13] that I think is uh might even be a [10:16] little stronger. 2 Chronicles [10:18] 24 [10:20] and we're looking at verses and we we [10:23] can start at verse one, but we're going [10:24] to go to verse three. [10:26] >> Verse one says, "Joash was 7 years old [10:29] when he began to reign. He reigned 40 [10:32] years in Jerusalem. His mother's name [10:34] was Zibia of Beersa. Joash did what was [10:39] right in the sight of the Lord all the [10:42] days of the priest Jehoeda." [10:46] Yeah. [10:46] >> And then verse three says, "Jeoeda got [10:49] two wives for him and he became the [10:52] father of sons and daughters." [10:55] >> Okay. [10:56] >> Pretty clearly the author is suggesting [10:59] that [11:01] if Jehoeda got two wives for Joash and [11:05] Joash did everything that was right in [11:07] the sight of the Lord all the days of [11:09] the priest, Jehoeda, that [11:11] >> and Jehoeda is the priest, God's [11:14] representative or whatever. [11:16] that that is sanctioned, endorsed by [11:19] God, [11:20] >> right? And that and that's some New [11:21] Testament stuff because I think I I I I [11:24] think when we talk about this that's [11:26] going to it it tapers off towards the [11:29] new like the the support for polygamy I [11:33] thought tapers off. [11:34] >> It does. It does tapers off. [11:37] >> But uh but so I'm actually surprised to [11:40] hear a to hear that. Yeah. And that [11:42] sounds like it's not there. There's [11:45] certainly no fullthroated condemnation [11:47] happening of uh of of politics. [11:51] >> No. No. Not uh not by any stretch of the [11:54] imagination. Although there is a passage [11:56] that some people will point to as [12:00] an indicator that polygamy was not what [12:04] God wanted. [12:05] >> And this is a weird one. Again, it's an [12:08] interpretation that is forced and is [12:10] nonsensical. [12:12] Um, but Leviticus 18:18, [12:17] uh, from the NRSVU, and you shall not [12:19] take a woman as a rival to her sister, [12:23] uncovering her nakedness while her [12:25] sister is still alive. So, the idea here [12:28] is obviously, hey, if you've already got [12:29] a wife, don't marry her sister also. [12:33] >> Okay, [12:34] >> that's, you know, that's uh that's a [12:37] problem. again that that that casts a [12:39] weird light on the Jacob story. [12:43] [laughter] [12:44] >> Yeah. Um [12:47] but and and some folks think Leviticus [12:50] 18 and 20 were actually these laws are [12:54] actually following the narrative of [12:57] Genesis. [12:58] And so the idea is they're they're [13:01] making laws basically to address all of [13:03] the circumstances and situations that [13:05] are that are happening in in Genesis. [13:08] And so this could be precisely saying, [13:11] "Hey, what happened with Jacob and and [13:13] Leah and and Rachel?" Yeah, maybe don't [13:15] do that. [13:16] >> That's not that's not for you. That was [13:18] for him, not you. [clears throat] [13:20] >> But the argument is that uh this does [13:24] not mean this is not only limited to a [13:26] biological sister. [13:28] But just don't take any woman as a uh [13:31] who could become a rival to a first [13:33] wife. Meaning polygamy no good. Uh and [13:38] and [13:39] >> that reading isn't supported by [13:40] anything. That's right. [13:42] >> That's silly. [13:44] >> Yeah. [13:44] >> But probably the most common objection [13:47] and I you know what? I don't even know [13:48] if if uh Tidwell [13:51] actually brings this objection up in his [13:55] blog post. seems like he should, [13:59] but I don't think he does. I don't think [14:01] he I don't think he engages the [14:02] argument. Genesis 2:24, which we've [14:05] talked about uh many times in the past, [14:07] thus a a man shall leave his father and [14:10] his mother's house and cleave unto his [14:13] woman, and the two of them shall be one [14:15] flesh. [14:16] >> Right? [14:16] >> And this is taken as a prescription of [14:19] how what God's pattern plan ideal for [14:23] marriage is. In other words, it's [14:25] supposed to be one man, one woman, one [14:29] vote. Um, [laughter] [14:32] [clears throat] but as we've discussed [14:34] before, it's clearly not a prescription [14:36] of proper u marriage. It's just a [14:39] descriptive ideology of pair bonding and [14:43] independent kinship units. It's not [14:45] saying it must be one man and only one [14:48] woman because obviously the rest of [14:50] Genesis is chock full of Israel's heroes [14:54] and even precursors marrying multiple [14:56] women. Uh and so the the authors are [14:59] very clearly okay with uh polygyny and [15:03] so are are obviously not condemning [15:05] that. So, there [clears throat] are a [15:08] bunch of passages in the Hebrew Bible [15:11] that [15:13] just outright endorse uh if not just [15:16] condone polygamy. [15:19] >> Yeah. [15:19] >> Things start to change when we get to [15:22] Greor Roman period Judaism. And not [15:25] because of the Bible, but in spite of [15:27] the Bible. It's because of Greek [15:29] philosophy and Greco Roman social [15:31] conventions and mores. Because while the [15:34] the Greeks and the Romans were pretty [15:37] socially loose maybe [15:40] >> um you know you wanted to uh [15:44] fidelity within marriage might not have [15:46] been at the top of their list of [15:47] priorities but they did find polygyny to [15:51] be a practice of weirdos. Um they didn't [15:54] really like it. [15:55] >> Right. And then there were um Greek [15:59] philosophical treatises that kind of [16:01] talk about the the structure of society [16:04] and things like that and the household [16:05] and and how it's all supposed to work [16:08] and uh and that endorsed monogamy as [16:11] well. Although, you know, slaves were [16:14] were entirely permitted and everything [16:17] like that. [16:17] >> Totally fair game. [16:18] >> Yeah. And [16:19] >> and a side piece here and there is [16:21] obviously fine, [16:22] >> right? So this [clears throat] this [16:24] rubbed off on Greor Roman period [16:25] Judaism. And so they didn't come out and [16:28] say we no longer accept polygamy, but it [16:33] was less and less common. So that you [16:35] didn't really you didn't really see it [16:37] happening because it wouldn't have been [16:38] acceptable within this Greco Roman [16:41] context. And so by the time of the New [16:43] Testament, you polygamy is not really [16:46] polygyny. Excuse me. We agreed before [16:49] filming that we were going to use [16:50] polygyny and not polygamy. I mean, we [16:52] could say polygamy. It's because most [16:54] times when someone uses the word [16:56] polygamy, they're talking about the [16:59] practice of marrying multiple wives [17:00] because that's that's been the only one, [17:03] you know, the only thing that's been [17:05] practiced in in for most of [17:08] >> what we what is commonly known in human [17:11] history. There may be some some uh [17:15] polyandrous [17:17] societies, but I've never heard of them. [17:21] Yes, the I think they m mostly exist in [17:24] comic books. Um, but [laughter] [17:28] [snorts] [17:28] >> but yeah, I'm I can't think of any off [17:30] the top of my head, but if you do know [17:32] of some, uh, by all means, [17:34] >> let us know. [17:36] >> Um, [clears throat] [17:37] >> and and so you polygyny is not really [17:40] that big a deal, but you do have some [17:42] places where it seems to be [17:44] >> uh poo pooed uh or or if not condemned. [17:48] So in the Dead Sea Scrolls, it seems to [17:52] uh to not approve of polygyny, [17:55] >> right? [17:55] >> New Testament has no outright [17:57] condemnation of polygyny at all. It just [18:00] seems to have been the norm that that [18:02] you only marry one wife at a time. The [18:05] one exception would be First Timothy [18:08] 3:2. Now, 1 Timothy, pastoral epistle, [18:13] not Paul. [18:14] >> Okay? Um this is uh this is pseudo [18:18] Pauline. This is after Paul's death. [18:20] This is somebody trying to appropriate [18:21] Paul's authority by pretending to be [18:23] Paul. But we have uh in this passage the [18:26] author is explaining what is required to [18:30] be an overseer or a bishop and says that [18:34] he must be a man of one woman [18:37] which is probably intended to address [18:40] fidelity within marriage and then not [18:42] remarrying after either divorce or the [18:44] death of a spouse. Because there there [18:47] was actually and and you know you see [18:48] this in Matthew that if a man divorces [18:51] his wife for anything other than than [18:53] sexual infidelity [18:56] that uh he commits adultery by marrying [18:59] another woman and causes her to commit [19:01] adultery if she marries another man. So [19:04] um you know you weren't supposed to get [19:06] remarried. You have one wife and and [19:08] that's your wife and and that's it. [19:10] >> You used yours. You used your one. [19:12] You're you're you're [19:13] >> ran out. Yeah. Um, but it does seem to [19:17] suggest that they're not they would not [19:19] approve of, right, [19:20] >> a polygamous uh polygenous [19:24] uh marriage for a a leader. And and a [19:27] lot of people try to insist that when it [19:29] says uh overseer or bishop, that means [19:33] pastor, but it doesn't. Uh pastor is [19:36] only mentioned once in all of the New [19:38] Testament, and that is in Ephesians 4. [19:41] >> What's the difference? [19:43] Well, they're different offices within [19:45] the church and they're entirely [19:46] different words in Greek, but but there [19:48] are folks who try to make the case that [19:50] there's a there's a passage in Acts that [19:52] talks about elders and overseers kind of [19:55] being the same and talking about how [19:57] they are to pasture or pastor the flock. [20:01] >> So, it uses verbs associated with [20:04] pastoring to refer to them and and so [20:07] people will say, see that means a pastor [20:09] is just the same thing. But [20:13] the Gospel of John uses the verb [20:16] pastoring to refer to an apostle as well [20:19] as Jesus as well as Jesus's followers. [20:21] So like that the use of that verb by [20:23] itself doesn't mean this is a reference [20:26] to the ecclesiastical office of a pastor [20:30] which again is only ever only known from [20:32] Ephesians. Ephesians also probably not [20:36] Paul. That's not one of the uh outright [20:38] spurious epistles, but one of the [20:41] disputed uh epistles. So, [20:44] >> but also probably a later thing like you [20:47] know, it it sounds to me like that's [20:48] that's when the organization the [20:50] organization chart has started to [20:53] appear. [20:53] >> Yes. Yes. The org chart is showing up in [20:55] emails and irritating everybody. Um but [20:59] yeah, that's that's a more developed [21:00] hierarchy, a more developed institution [21:03] where they've got these offices and [21:04] that's and Paul [21:06] would not have been operating with those [21:09] with those institutions. Anyway, [music] [21:14] >> Dan, I don't know about you, but I enjoy [21:17] a high-end mattress, but don't [21:20] necessarily enjoy sky-high price tags. I [21:23] know you love your mattress. What model [21:25] is yours? Uh, I got the Plank Firm Lux. [21:28] I got to have the firmst mattress I can. [21:31] I've got a back that has been struggling [21:34] for 15 years now. And this is one of the [21:36] only things that makes it so I can get [21:38] out of bed and jump to work. And I also [21:42] got the Glacioteex [21:44] uh covers just because I sleep hot. I [21:47] just run hot in general and this helps [21:50] keep me cool throughout the night. Keeps [21:53] me comfortable. 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[22:47] Brooklynbetting.com [22:48] promo code dogma. [22:52] Say hello to the all-new Alexa Plus and [22:55] see how Alexa can do so much more for [22:57] you. Need tickets to [music] see your [22:59] favorite artist? Craving your comfort [23:01] restaurant? Just sit back, relax, and [23:03] talk naturally. Alexa's on it. It learns [23:06] your style, anticipates [music] what's [23:08] next, and makes it happen across Echo, [23:10] Fire TV, and more. Learn more at [23:13] amazon.com/new [23:14] Alexa. [23:16] But anyway, 1 Timothy 3:2, even though [23:19] it probably is not directly addressing [23:22] polygyny, [23:24] it would preclude polygenous marriages. [23:27] Even though it it is also just about the [23:30] standards for someone who wants to hold [23:32] that position. It's not necessarily [23:34] saying any follower of Jesus cannot do [23:37] this, but it probably would have been a [23:40] standard that became pretty widespread. [23:42] So, we do have one passage that does [23:44] seem to uh seem to prohibit polygyny in [23:48] the New Testament, and Rich Tidwell is [23:52] not ignorant of that passage. So, [23:55] >> okay, [23:55] >> he makes an argument for why 1 Timothy [23:58] 3:2 does not prohibit polygyny. Uh he [24:02] says [clears throat] [24:04] in 1 Timothy 3:2, Paul utilizes the [24:06] Greek word mia, which we translated as [24:10] one in English. And he talks a little [24:12] bit about this in uh in another passage. [24:14] Although mia may translate as an [24:16] indefinite one or a as in the indefinite [24:20] article in the context of marriage in 1 [24:22] Timothy 3:2, MIA means ordinal first. [24:27] If Paul intended to communicate a man [24:29] must have numeral one wife to be in [24:32] ministry, he would have employed the [24:34] word he as he did in 1 Timothy 5:9, the [24:38] same epistle because he explicitly means [24:40] numeral one. Mia must be used in 1 [24:43] Timothy 3:2 as a grammatical rule. Uh [24:46] read my response titled the Mia and he [24:48] saga. Therefore, 1 Timothy 3:2 ought to [24:50] be translated the husband of his first [24:53] wife. [24:55] as Paul like Jesus is preventing [24:58] hypergami [25:00] and divorce. [25:02] In other words, he still has to be [25:05] married to his first wife. [25:07] >> Should I make a guess as to your [25:09] response to this? [laughter] [25:12] >> Let's see. [25:12] >> Because I don't know anything about the [25:14] the grammar or uh or words of Greek, but [25:17] I'm going to guess that you're going to [25:19] object to his uh his [25:22] explanation of how these words are used. [25:24] Yes, it's it's nonsensical. [laughter] [25:26] Um, he says, "A man who divorces his [25:29] first wife to marry another, as Jesus [25:31] prohibits in Matthew 19:19, also see [25:33] also Malachi 2:15-16, is not fit for [25:36] eldership in the church." Paul is not [25:39] addressing polygyny nor disqualifying [25:41] the patriarchs from ministry. He is [25:43] prohibiting hypergamy and serial [25:46] monogamy among the elders of the church. [25:50] And then then he goes on to say [25:51] something interesting. Moreover, do we [25:53] truly believe that if Abraham, Jacob, or [25:56] David resurrected, a possibility [25:59] according to Matthew 27:52-53, [26:02] they would not be permitted to hold [26:04] office or preach in the church. These [26:07] polygamous men wrote or are featured in [26:10] many of our holy scriptures, but we [26:11] wouldn't give them a microphone today. [26:14] What utter nonsense? I believe the [26:17] answer to these questions lies in Romans [26:19] 11:23. These polygamous men of the Bible [26:21] were called by God and retained their [26:24] offices despite their having several [26:26] wives. Um, and I and I saw somebody who [26:30] uh responded to that particular argument [26:34] by barking that yes, absolutely they [26:36] would be prohibited from being [snorts] [26:38] pastors. And and they went on to say [26:41] even God prohibited David from building [26:43] the temple because he was a a man of [26:46] war. And so God can withhold certain [26:50] offices and and responsibilities from [26:52] from people. He he didn't address Jacob [26:55] or Abraham, but um but I but I think [26:58] that's an interesting argument. And [27:00] yeah, the 1 Timothy 3:2, the notion that [27:03] um uh that Mia and Heath really carry [27:07] these these significant differences that [27:09] must be maintained context independent [27:12] uh doesn't really work. uh it it can be [27:16] used that way. Uh but it doesn't mean we [27:19] have to use it. [27:21] >> Well, if it can be used that way, then [27:22] there's some legitimacy maybe to his [27:24] argument. [27:25] >> Well, there's there's the Yeah, it's [27:27] basically the you can't prove it's false [27:30] argument. It's a it's possible. Um we're [27:33] we're jinning up that tiny little sliver [27:35] of of not impossible, [27:37] >> right? [27:38] >> Um [27:39] >> but yeah, there there are no scholars [27:40] who read it that way. Um, [27:44] but it is [27:45] >> he does seem like he has a a a [27:46] motivation a specific motivation to [27:50] little bit of motivation reading. [27:52] >> I [laughter] feel like it's I I feel [27:53] like the most interesting part of this [27:55] whole thing is that the, you know, if [28:00] you want to use the Bible to justify [28:02] polygamy, polygyny, whatever, that seems [28:06] easy. That's like he's not wrong. [28:09] >> Yeah. Not as easy as defending slavery, [28:12] but certainly uh easier than than [28:15] defending same-sex intercourse or [28:17] something like that. [28:19] >> Yeah. [28:19] >> Like there's there is ample ample [28:24] um evidence that that it was considered [28:28] okay by God. And this is another thing [28:29] that he talks about according to the [28:32] Bible, God does not change, [28:33] >> right? [28:34] >> So if God is okay with polygamy in the [28:35] Hebrew Bible, God is okay with polygamy [28:37] in the New Testament. And this is [28:38] something that that is a a bit of a a um [28:42] a problem for the folks who who want to [28:46] understand the Bible to be condemning [28:47] polygamy. [28:49] Why would God allow it in in one part of [28:51] the Bible and then prohibit it in [28:54] another if God does not [28:55] >> allow it in the most important figures [28:58] in the Bible? [28:59] >> Condone and even endorse it. Yeah. Yeah. [29:01] >> And and so it it does raise the question [29:03] of um you know we have other well not we [29:07] as in me but a lot of these folks assert [29:10] certain dogmas about God's unchanging [29:12] nature and about the universality of the [29:15] moral principles on which the gospel is [29:18] founded. [29:19] >> Yeah. [29:20] >> How do you get around that? And that is [29:22] why I think you have a lot of folks who [29:24] try to argue that that God actually [29:26] prohibited or didn't like polygyny, just [29:29] tolerated it. Like I'm not sure about [29:32] this. Um, but I I'll, you know, I'll see [29:35] where this is going. And and so people [29:37] will bring up the argument that [29:38] throughout the Hebrew Bible, [29:40] uh, polygenous marriages are are [29:43] characterized by conflict and problems. [29:47] It's like every relationship in the [29:49] Hebrew Bible is characterized by tension [29:52] and conflict. Uh [29:54] >> every relationship in humanity is [29:56] characterized by like I don't know if [29:58] you've had a spouse or a or or [30:01] [laughter] a relationship, but you're [30:03] going to have conflict. That is uh that [30:06] that's a guarantee. [30:06] >> And they're like, "Bad things always [30:08] happen." It's like Adam and Eve are a [30:10] monogous marriage. The worst thing [30:12] happened, right? Yeah. [30:14] >> And you know, you've got all kinds of [30:16] all kinds of circumstances. Like [30:19] everybody who has a brother in the [30:21] Hebrew Bible runs into all kinds of [30:23] problems. It's like, does that mean that [30:25] having a brother is is uh frowned upon? [30:28] God's like, I don't know about this one. [30:31] Um, let's get him. You know, I think I [30:34] it's so interesting that the Bible is so [30:37] obviously explicit about this and so [30:40] overwhelmingly [30:42] uh so so loaded with it as you know [30:47] example after example and you know I [30:49] suppose we should bring up Solomon who [30:52] like is the he's putting up Wilt [30:54] Chamberlain numbers with [laughter] [30:57] >> and and and that that works on two [30:59] different levels. So well well we might [31:02] get to the rest of that [laughter] but [31:04] uh but yeah I mean he he what does he [31:05] have 700 wives and 300 concubines or [31:09] something like according to the thing. [31:11] >> So like and you know there's no part of [31:15] that that's condemned. There are things [31:16] that like the Bible's like oh Solomon [31:18] wasn't good about this or whatever but [31:20] it's not that [31:21] >> well [31:21] >> that's that's ex except that they're [31:23] foreign wives and [31:24] >> yes they're foreign wives and they [31:25] influence him towards uh and and so and [31:28] you know people will bring that up as [31:29] well. Well, look what happened to [31:30] Solomon with all them foreign wives. [31:31] It's like, well, he still had more than [31:34] one local wife, and that didn't cause [31:36] any problems. God wasn't like, I'm not [31:38] too hot on that other thing, either. [31:41] >> And his dad was like his dad was loaded [31:43] up, too. [31:44] >> Yeah. [31:44] >> Uh David David had multiple wives as [31:47] well. [31:48] >> Yep. [31:48] >> So, I I don't know. It's just the thing [31:51] that's weird to me is that you can look [31:53] at this book, you can read all of those [31:55] stories of all of these men who have all [31:58] of those wives and then [32:02] because your culture [32:04] obviously is not okay with that. You [32:07] know, I my my parents were both LDS [32:10] historians. They were both historians of [32:11] Mormonism and uh they so I'm I'm fairly [32:16] familiar with uh Mormon history and of [32:19] course famously [32:21] >> infamously infamously [32:24] >> famously [laughter] [32:25] >> the Mormons the early Mormons and then [32:28] later fundamentalist break off offshoots [32:30] of Mormonism practiced polygyny. [32:33] >> Yes. [32:33] >> And uh the way that the world [32:36] >> I live in a city where one of them ran [32:38] for mayor. Yeah. [laughter] Yeah. Yeah. [32:42] >> I can see the house, their compounds uh [32:45] from my front yard. [32:47] >> Yeah. Okay. Well, there you go. So, it's [32:50] it's still around, but the way [32:52] historically that the uh that American [32:56] culture came crashing down on these [32:58] people [33:00] >> for this thing. And I, you know, to on [33:02] one hand, I get it in the sense that I I [33:05] think that the the polygyny of Mormonism [33:10] uh creates a a wild power imbalance. It [33:14] is something that is entered into uh [33:17] often unwillingly by the women. Yeah. [33:20] >> And and it is often forced upon women [33:23] and it is it like the way it is [33:24] practiced is not consensual and [33:26] therefore not there's no way to excuse [33:29] it. But [33:32] how did these did this country come down [33:36] so incredibly hard? Like literally [33:38] people were saying the dual barbarism. I [33:41] don't remember the exact quote, but they [33:43] were equating slavery and polygamy as [33:47] being the the two barbaric practices of [33:49] the United States of America. [33:51] >> Yeah. Reynolds versus the United States [33:54] from 1879. [33:55] >> Oh, okay. There you go. [33:56] >> There was the Yeah. And the um [33:59] [laughter] a lot of people have been [34:00] like this. They didn't really have that [34:03] good of an argument. Um because because [34:05] it was mainly just like you know this is [34:08] characteristic of barbaric people, [34:11] right? [34:11] >> And um and and I think also said it [34:15] always leads to abuse or or something [34:17] like that, right? [34:18] >> Um [34:19] >> which I I I think it's plain to see. I [34:22] if you watch any reality TV, you know [34:24] that it doesn't necessarily lead to [34:26] abuse. [34:28] wasn't I never actually watched a single [34:30] episode of Sister Wives, but it it seems [34:33] like he probably wasn't abusive. I don't [34:35] know. Would they He wouldn't get to keep [34:37] his his reality show if he was abusive. [34:38] [laughter] [34:39] >> I I didn't watch any of it either. I [34:41] don't I don't know. But yeah, you I [34:43] think [34:44] >> I couldn't get past his hairstyle to be [34:45] perfectly honest. And I'm not one to [34:47] talk. I know that. [laughter] [34:50] >> Uh I just think [34:51] >> I wasn't going to say anything. I just [34:53] think that it's really weird that uh [34:55] that Bible believing people, people [34:57] purporting to be Bible believers [35:01] are so [35:03] vehement against this. Like I get why [35:06] you're vehement against slavery. That [35:09] makes sense to me. And I get why you'd [35:11] be vehement against the a practice that [35:13] was entered into against a woman's will. [35:17] That I I understand as well. [35:19] >> Yeah. [35:21] But presuming that adults enter into a [35:25] an arrangement [35:26] of their own free will and with their [35:29] with their consent, full consent and uh [35:32] and approval. [35:34] I don't know how biblically minded [35:36] people condemn that. I [clears throat] I [35:38] don't get it. Well, we've we've already [35:40] seen that that folks who would identify [35:43] as biblically minded people have have a [35:45] way of massaging what the Bible [snorts] [35:48] is is minding them um about. So, um, but [35:53] it's interesting within Judaism because [35:56] I've mentioned before one of the reasons [35:58] that Christianity and Judaism, um, [36:01] deviated so so significantly from each [36:03] other is because Christianity really [36:05] leaned into uh, Greek philosophy and and [36:09] the [clears throat] Greco Roman world, [36:11] whereas Judaism tried to distinguish [36:13] itself from it and rejected [36:17] >> uh, Greek philosophy and to some degree. [36:20] it was still quite influential but you [36:22] know they they were like septuagent not [36:24] for us we're going back to the Hebrew [36:26] we're going back to hakic legislation [36:28] all this stuff and so for centuries [36:32] after the split from Christianity while [36:35] Christianity is is rejecting polygamy [36:38] Judaism was kind of like [36:41] we're a little uncomfortable with this [36:43] uh we we we can't really find a reason [36:46] to object in the Hebrew Bible but we [36:49] just don't like it. So, like you have [36:52] Josephus referring to it as an ancestral [36:54] custom in one of his texts, but and it's [36:58] like around a thousand CE when Greek [37:01] philosophy and and just philosophy in [37:04] general becomes a lot more influential [37:06] within Judaism that you finally have [37:08] some some uh Jewish philosophers who are [37:11] like, "Yeah, no polygamy. We're we're [37:13] just we're just outlawing it. It's just [37:15] not good." [37:16] So, um, so they they had a longer time, [37:21] um, coming down, uh, as firmly as they [37:23] ultimately did, uh, against polygamy. [37:27] But, but yeah, it it does seem like [37:29] something that, uh, you know, people [37:32] appeal to all the time. People appeal to [37:34] the Hebrew Bible and God's design for [37:36] marriage as as what should [laughter] be [37:38] governing how marriage works. Um, and [37:42] uh, except when it comes to that part [37:45] when they're like, and then they they'll [37:47] go to Genesis 2:24. Um, and and I just [37:51] want to be clear uh, because people are [37:53] going to accuse me of being a dirty [37:56] dirty Mormon who is just trying to [37:58] defend polygamy, [38:00] >> right? [38:00] >> You could not be more mistaken about [38:03] [laughter] my position on marriage. Uh, [38:07] so, so [laughter] [38:09] as as frequently as I have to remind [38:11] people that I'm doing my darnest to just [38:15] represent the data and the scholarly [38:17] consensus, that's what I'm doing here. [38:20] And this should in no way, shape, or [38:22] form whatsoever be misconstrued as me [38:25] >> defending polygamy cuz I like it. I have [38:28] already been accused of that countless [38:30] times [laughter] just because I posted a [38:32] video a few days ago about this. So, [38:34] >> of the two of us, I'm the one who's more [38:36] likely to [laughter] come to the defense [38:37] of [38:38] >> Yes. [38:39] >> of uh of non-traditional [38:43] uh uh marriage slash uh love practices. [38:48] I suppose I don't I don't support [38:50] polygyny, [38:52] religiously mandated polygyny. I [38:54] certainly don't support that. [38:55] >> Certainly not. Yeah. And and and and I [38:57] think that's one of the the big issues [38:59] is is if it is something that is [39:02] religiously sanctioned then I I think it [39:05] does pressure folks particularly young [39:07] folks growing up in that kind of society [39:09] that conditions them to think this is [39:11] this is my role this is what I have to [39:13] do. I mean, you already have women on [39:15] Twitter saying, "We need to repeal the [39:18] 19th amendment only because the men [39:21] around them in their lives and uh, you [39:24] know, kind of in control in of their [39:26] worldview are are [39:29] conditioning them and convincing them [39:31] that they need to defend that uh that [39:34] particular limit to their agency." And [39:37] and I think the last thing we need is uh [39:40] you know a bunch of folks raising up [39:43] young girls to to believe that uh they [39:45] have their only goal in life ought to be [39:49] becoming a polygamous wife of of uh [39:52] another uh Tidwell or whomever. [39:56] >> Yeah. And too often in those situations [39:58] as we see with fundamentalist uh Mormons [40:00] currently and uh historical Mormons back [40:04] in the 1800s and early 1900s uh when it [40:09] be when it's when it's culturally [40:12] especially when it's shrouded in [40:14] cultural shame uh and and becomes this [40:17] insular thing really bad practices crop [40:21] up. So like you know [40:23] 14year-old women being forcibly married [40:27] off to 50some year old men that sort of [40:29] thing it's [40:30] >> because God said so. [40:31] >> Yeah it's Epstein level not okay. So, [40:35] uh, so yes, [40:37] [sighs and gasps] [40:38] >> and as of recording, [40:40] >> as of there's been a bunch of emails [40:42] that have dropped and and you know, [40:44] well, I'm sure that the dust will have [40:46] settled to some degree unless more [40:48] emails are dropping. Uh, [40:50] >> yeah. Yeah. Who know? It's it's raining [40:52] Epstein letters at this point. [40:54] >> Okay. with [laughter] [40:57] right. Let let's let's erase uh our [40:59] brains from that for a little bit and [41:01] let's actually move on to our chapter [41:04] and verse. [41:08] >> This holiday, discover meaningful gifts [41:10] for everyone [music] on your list at K. [41:13] Not sure where to start? Our jewelry [41:14] experts are here to help you find or [41:16] create the perfect [music] gift in store [41:18] or online. Book your appointment today [41:20] and unwrap love this season only at K. [41:24] This episode is brought to you by Blink. [41:26] Blink Friday starts now with up to 65% [41:29] [music] off Blink Smart Security. Check [41:31] on your pets all season long with new [41:34] Blink Mini 2K Plus cameras. See your [41:36] gifts arrive in headtotoe view with [41:39] Blink Video Doorbell. Ready to use right [41:41] out of the box. Just unwrap Blink and [41:43] go. From pet parents to jet setters to [41:45] busy families, Blink Friday deals have [41:48] your holidays covered. Shop now at [41:50] amazon.com/blink. [41:55] This episode is brought to you by [41:56] [music] Netflix. Jay Kelly, the new film [41:58] from Academy Award nominee Noah Bombach. [42:01] George Clooney stars as an actor [42:03] confronting his past and present on a [42:05] journey of self-discovery alongside Adam [42:08] Sandler [music] as his devoted manager. [42:10] Critics are calling it a declaration of [42:12] love to the chaotic art of filmm with [42:14] the Wall Street Journal praising it as [42:16] [music] a transcendent comedy drama. [42:18] Watch J. Kelly December 5th only on [42:20] Netflix. [42:24] And the chapter I guess is we're I guess [42:27] what we're going to do is we're going to [42:28] get to first Kings chapter 11. [42:31] >> Yeah. [42:32] >> Uh and this is this is it's this is the [42:35] thing. It starts out with [snorts] [42:38] uh talking about uh the marriages of of [42:42] Solomon [42:43] >> uh and and the fact that he loved many [42:46] women, many foreign women. [42:49] >> Uh that was the problem. It wasn't the [42:50] many women. It was the fact that they [42:52] were Moabitete and Ammonite and Edomite [42:55] and Cidian and Hitittite uh women. [42:59] >> Yes. [43:00] >> Uh and not only were was he in love with [43:02] these women, but he was building shrines [43:04] to their gods on the hills. [43:08] Uh so so that's that's sort of the Yeah. [43:12] 700 princesses and 300 concubines. [43:15] Princesses. Okay. I have seen wives in [43:18] translations, but [43:19] >> what does it say? It says nashim, [43:22] which would mean women or or wives in [43:24] Hebrew. Why? Why does Why does it say [43:27] princess? [43:28] >> Oh, n rsv. Are you getting [43:29] >> Oh, no. No. It says wives and then it [43:32] says uh sot, which would be which would [43:35] be the feminine plural of uh sar, which [43:39] would be uh a prince or a noble. Okay. [43:41] Nobleman. So, yeah. [43:43] >> Um princesses and 300 concubines. So [43:46] wait, it says among his his wives were [43:49] 700 princesses. [43:51] >> The non-pres probably there's a couple [43:54] hundred more of those. Who knows? [43:56] [laughter] [43:57] >> Again, it's the it's those Chamberlain [43:59] numbers. Anyway, [44:00] >> and um yeah, who knows how many [44:02] trombones and [44:03] >> [laughter] [44:03] >> uh and the camels. Yes, June. Love the [44:06] camels. Um [44:08] >> see, I see how I was able to bring in [44:11] not just the music man, but also [44:13] Aladdin. [44:14] >> Yeah, man. You you you went all over the [44:16] map with that. You you encircled the [44:19] globe twice uh on that one. [laughter] [44:21] >> But it says, "When Solomon was old, his [44:23] wives turned away his heart after other [44:25] gods, and his heart was not true to the [44:28] Lord his God, as was the heart of his [44:30] father, David." [44:32] Kind of. [44:32] >> Yeah. Kind of. [44:33] >> And David kind of got the the raw end of [44:36] the heart. [44:37] >> David fudged the rules a little bit here [44:39] and there, but sure. Yeah. [44:40] >> Uh so and but I mean I think the main [44:43] thing is and this is something that [44:44] we've talked about the main one of the [44:45] things that we need to remember here is [44:47] that [44:48] >> uh and one of the things that was never [44:51] talked about in my religious upbringing [44:53] >> was the fact that these other gods that [44:56] Solomon was uh was kind of falling prey [44:59] to were real gods by [45:02] >> they believed them to be yes [45:03] >> they believed them to be real gods. So [45:05] this is a this is like really treading [45:08] on uh on Adonai's turf here. [45:12] >> Yeah. Yeah. And you you have uh a [45:16] first Kings 11 is interesting for so [45:18] many reasons. Verse 5 refers to Solomon [45:21] following Estarte, the goddess of the [45:22] Sidonians and Milcom, the abomination of [45:26] the Ammonites. [45:27] >> Right? [45:28] >> So Milcom was a patron deity of of the [45:31] Ammonites. But then you excuse me, you [45:33] go down to verse 7 and it says, "Then [45:34] Solomon built a high place for Kamosh, [45:38] the abomination of Moab." We've talked [45:40] about Chemosh before. And for Molech, [45:42] the abomination of the Ammonites. So [45:45] we've just seen it was Milcom, who's the [45:46] abomination of the Ammonites. And now we [45:48] have [45:48] >> Oh, yeah. That's right. [45:49] >> Molech, the abomination of the [45:51] Ammonites. This is this is a a scribal [45:54] corruption. [45:55] >> Okay. there has been a a change where [45:57] Milcom and Molech the only difference in [46:00] written Hebrew anciently is one letter [46:02] the M on the end um of of the uh the [46:07] word the name and so obviously the the [46:10] mem has just fallen out [46:13] >> uh from [46:14] >> excuse me from the uh from the word [46:17] milcom [46:18] >> and so a lot of people use this as a to [46:21] argue that Molech was recognized as a [46:23] deity and Molech is was not a deity. [46:26] Molech was just a a type of sacrifice [46:28] and then later Greek translators and and [46:30] later folks confused it for the name of [46:33] a deity that [46:34] >> Okay, so we're saying we're saying that [46:35] Milcom is the actual deity and Molech [46:38] was was an incorrect [46:40] >> corruption. Yeah, textual um oopsy. [46:44] >> I do think that Milcom is would be a [46:47] good name for a software company. [46:49] >> Um yeah, [46:50] >> it just sounds right. I don't know. Uh, [46:53] Milcom and Molech would be a good would [46:55] be an interesting name for a uh like a [46:59] >> affirm. [47:01] [laughter] Oh, a buddy comedy. I love [47:03] it. [47:03] >> The two the two abominations of the [47:05] Ammonites. Uh, [laughter] I I like it. [47:08] >> Yeah. [47:08] >> All right. So, [47:10] >> okay. [47:12] >> Let's Yeah, let's go on with the story [47:14] here. [47:14] >> I'm going to get down to verse uh 23. [47:17] >> Okay, sounds good. [47:18] >> We have some adversaries raised against [47:20] Solomon. Resin, son of Eliada, who had [47:23] fled from his master, King Hadada of [47:26] [laughter] Zoa. Um, the whenever [47:30] >> I just wanted to say that [laughter] [47:32] >> whenever on uh like the Simpsons, they [47:35] always have Ned Flanders saying some [47:37] kind of nonsensical name from [47:39] >> from uh from the Bible. This is this is [47:42] one that I would have if I didn't know [47:44] this passage, I would have been like, [47:45] they made that up. That's not in [47:46] [laughter] the Bible. King Hadad Desair [47:49] >> of Zad had deser. Yeah. Okay. [47:52] >> Yeah. Um it's just Hadad Ezer. Hadad was [47:56] the name of a deity. Ezer would just [47:58] means help of. So So help of Hadad. [48:01] Hadad's uh helper. And um [48:04] [clears throat] [48:05] >> while we're talking about names because [48:07] it's going to come up, what is the what [48:09] does the suffix boam mean? Um [48:12] >> because we're gonna get a Jeroboam and a [48:14] and a what's the son's name? [48:17] >> Uh Jeroboam and Reoboam, [48:21] >> right? [48:21] >> Yes. Um so the uh [48:26] the am on the end is not is not clear. [48:30] Uh it could mean uh like it could mean [48:34] people. Am means people. It could mean [48:37] uh uncle. Like there's there's a um [48:40] there's a form of this word that that [48:41] has reference to a male uh ancestor. [48:45] Could mean an uncle god. Uh it could be [48:49] a deformationation [48:50] of gerubal. [48:52] >> Oh, [48:53] >> so Jeroboam, Jerobal. The they're [48:55] spelled the same except for the the mem [48:58] on the end instead of a lamemed. So, um, [49:02] at least [clears throat] when it comes [49:03] to, uh, Jeroboam, it's not clear what [49:08] exactly is, uh, is going on with the [49:11] with the on the end of the name. Now, [49:13] when it comes to Rayoboam, [49:16] um, this is more likely to be like the [49:20] the um, ra means to be wide. Um, and [49:26] this is a word that can mean street uh [49:29] in Hebrew. So it might be this uncle god [49:33] is has made wide or maybe it's the [49:37] people have become extensive. They've [49:40] spread out. [49:42] >> Okay. [49:42] >> Um, so [49:44] >> uncle god on the street is what I'm [49:45] going with. [49:46] >> Uncle God on the street. Yeah. [49:48] [laughter] So that [49:50] >> all right. Sorry that was a that I I I I [49:53] took us off down a rabbit trail. No [49:55] worries. Um, but we have Jeroboam and [49:57] and this is a this is an interesting [49:59] story. Uh, oh, so, so anyway, a lot of [50:03] people made trouble in Solomon's [50:04] neighborhood. They were up to no good. [50:06] >> Um, and then Jeroboam uh shows up and [50:10] he's he's like a a day laborer and he's [50:14] coming down to Jerusalem and he's he's [50:17] helping up with helping out with stuff. [50:19] And verse 28 says, 'When Solomon saw [50:21] that the young man was industrious, he [50:23] gave him charge over all the forced [50:25] labor of the house of Joseph. And so [50:27] forced labor, this would be Corv labor. [50:30] This is the the king of Judah requiring [50:34] that the people from the northern [50:36] kingdom who would have been subjugated [50:38] to Judah require they send folks um on a [50:42] certain schedule to come do forced [50:44] labor. So [50:46] >> uh this is this is not really slavery. [50:48] It's something a bit different. And um [50:52] and then Jeroboam's leaving Jerusalem. [50:55] Work day is over. He's going home and a [50:58] prophet Ahijah the Shilonite found him [51:01] on the road and he had he and he had a [51:05] new garment on and he gives it to uh um [51:09] to uh Jeroboam but tears it into 12 [51:14] pieces which is kind of like cool. [51:16] Thanks. What? Um [51:19] >> uh [laughter] thanks for the shirt. I [51:21] guess I'll It's rags now. [51:23] >> Yeah. Um he says, "Take for yourself 10 [51:26] pieces, for thus says the Lord, the God [51:29] of Israel. See, I am about to tear the [51:31] kingdom from the hand of Solomon, and [51:33] will give you 10 tribes. One tribe will [51:36] remain his for the sake of my servant [51:38] David, and for the sake of Jerusalem, [51:40] the city that I've chosen out of all the [51:41] tribes of Israel." This is because he [51:43] has forsaken me. worshiped Estarte, the [51:45] goddess of the Sidonians, and so on and [51:48] so forth. [51:49] >> Um, so it it's this symbolic, you know, [51:52] the prophet's always doing weird [51:53] symbolic stuff. Look at this jar. I'm [51:55] going to break this jar. Look, I'm nude. [51:58] Look, I'm tearing your your coat into 12 [52:00] pieces. Um, so they're [52:02] >> Can you just put Can you put your [52:04] clothes back on, [laughter] please? No. [52:06] Oh. Oh, you're tearing it up. Great. [52:08] Okay. Um, so basically the the 10 pieces [52:11] are are represent the 10 tribes of [52:13] Israel, which would be the northern [52:14] kingdom. So basically Jeroboam. So what [52:17] what he's saying is Jeroboam is going to [52:19] get to be king even though he's just [52:20] this day laborer guy. [52:22] >> Yeah. The prophet is like, "Hey, guess [52:23] what? You're going to take over 10 of [52:25] the 12 tribes of Israel." And um and [52:28] Jeroboam is is represented as as rather [52:31] humble. Um but Solomon finds out about [52:35] this. And Solomon [52:37] >> That's you never want that. That's never [52:38] any good. [52:39] >> Solomon not happy. But uh so he tries to [52:42] kill Jeroboam. Jeroboam promptly flees [52:45] to Egypt uh to King Shishak of Egypt. [52:48] And he remains in Egypt until Solomon [52:50] dies. [52:51] >> Yeah. [52:52] >> Um and then Solomon's dead, reigned in [52:55] Jerusalem 40 years, slept with his [52:57] ancestors, was buried in the city of his [52:59] father David. And his son Rayoboam [53:02] succeeded him. Now, Rayoboam and and [53:05] here's the thing. There was never a [53:06] single United Kingdom. [53:09] Uh scholars are pretty sure that Judah [53:13] in the south and Israel in the north [53:15] were originally separate kingdoms. And [53:19] there there was a there would have been [53:20] a time maybe where uh where Israel might [53:23] have subjugated the southern kingdom or [53:26] maybe the southern kingdom subjugated [53:28] the northern kingdom which is how it's [53:29] represented in this text which is by the [53:31] way being written from the perspective [53:33] of somebody who lived in the southern [53:35] kingdom. Um and so Rayoboam goes up to [53:38] Sheckchham which is the the capital of [53:40] the northern kingdom for all Israel had [53:42] come to Sheckchham to make him king. And [53:45] then Jeroboam heard about it and he [53:48] comes back from Egypt. Um and uh or no, [53:53] he stays in Egypt and they they call him [53:56] and uh all the they sent and called him [54:00] in Jeroboam and all the assembly of [54:02] Israel came and said to Raboam, "Your [54:04] father made our yoke heavy." So you know [54:06] Jeroboam is a forced laborer. Um now [54:09] therefore lighten the hard service of [54:10] your father and his heavy yoke that he [54:12] placed on us and we will serve you. [54:13] basically saying, "Look, the Northern [54:16] Kingdom, your dad was mean to us. If you [54:19] will be nicer to us, we will happily be [54:21] part of your kingdom, [54:22] >> right? [54:23] >> Chill out a little bit. Let's uh let's [54:25] be kind. Rewind and uh and and maybe we [54:29] can all get along." [54:30] >> And King Rayoboam took counsel with the [54:33] older men who had attended his father [54:35] Solomon while he was still alive, [54:36] saying, "How do you advise me to answer [54:38] the people?" So he's he's basically [54:39] going to the elders who were his dad's [54:42] adviserss and they said if you will be a [54:44] servant to this people and serve them [54:47] and speak good words to them when you [54:49] answer them then they will be your [54:51] servants forever. [54:53] Then he went to the cool kids the [54:57] younger crowd [54:58] >> right [54:59] >> and uh who grew up with him. So his [55:02] >> Steven Millers of the world, [55:04] >> his friends and uh and he says, "What do [55:07] you advise?" Uh and they said, "Thus you [55:11] should say to this people who spoke to [55:12] you, your father made your our yoke [55:15] heavy, but you must lighten us for us. [55:17] Thus you should say to them, my little [55:18] finger is thicker than my father's [55:21] loins." [55:22] [laughter] [55:24] >> Which is [55:24] >> I'm going to assume that means what I [55:26] think it means. [55:27] >> It It does. He's he's holding up his [55:30] pinky and going, you know, this is this [55:32] is bigger than uh than uh my dad's [55:36] Johnson. [55:37] >> Mean meaning I suppose that like [55:41] >> my dad was a wimp and I and and because [55:46] having a big schlong is uh [55:50] >> it makes you stronger as a human, as a [55:52] person or [laughter] something makes you [55:54] more powerful as a man. [55:56] >> Yeah. you the the the one with the [55:58] bigger schnitz and grooin is is the the [56:01] manor man. Um so he says my father [56:05] disciplined you with whips but I will [56:06] discipline you with scorpions. [56:09] So he likey the sound of uh of that more [56:13] than the elders uh recommendation that [56:16] >> I want to make it worse for these people [56:18] rather than better. [56:19] >> Yeah cuz [56:20] >> though I got to say scorpions I' I'd [56:22] probably take a scorpion over over a [56:25] whip. whips seem like they do like way [56:27] more damage to me. [laughter] [56:30] >> Um because Yeah. He wants to flex on [56:33] them. [56:34] >> Yeah. [56:34] >> And you know that's that's the the [56:36] tendency [56:37] >> to show off the girth of his little [56:38] pinky. [56:39] >> Yeah. [laughter] [56:40] See that ring? That's like a that's like [56:42] a 12. That's a 13. [56:45] Um so Jeroboam and all the people came [56:47] to Rayoboam the third day as the king [56:49] had said, "Come to me again the third [56:51] day." The king answered the people [56:52] harshly. He disregarded the advice that [56:54] the older men had given him and spoke to [56:56] them according to the advice of the [56:58] young men. My father made your yoke [57:00] heavy, but I will add to your yoke. My [57:01] father disciplined you with whips, but I [57:03] will discipline you with scorpions. And [57:06] basically, they tried to kill him. [57:09] >> Yeah, it [clears throat] it does seem [57:11] like when it when he came face to face [57:12] with the people, he skipped the uh the [57:15] little finger bit. [laughter] [57:17] So, uh you know, it sounds like he [57:19] improvised a little bit in the moment. [57:22] Yeah. So the [57:23] >> we're out on that one. [laughter] [57:25] >> He was like, "Ah, I I don't want to try [57:28] that one out with this crowd." So, but [57:30] he goes back to Jerusalem. He sends [57:32] Adorum, who is the taskmaster over the [57:35] forced labor and uh he sent him up to [57:38] Israel to basically um say, "All right, [57:41] come on, let's go." And they stoned him [57:43] to death. [57:44] >> And so, yeah, King Rayoboam then [57:47] hurriedly mounted his chariot to flee to [57:50] Jerusalem. Mhm. [57:52] >> So, Israel has been in rebellion against [57:54] the house of David to this day. So, it's [57:57] it's the explanation for how uh the two [58:01] kingdoms that were always separate [58:02] kingdoms came to be separate. So it's [58:06] it's kind of an ASAPs fable for um [58:09] >> for a people who kind of um came up with [58:13] this [58:14] >> uh this origin story that we were once a [58:17] united kingdom and we got separated [58:20] >> and that is probably fiction. Um and [58:23] it's being told from a southern [58:24] perspective because after the [58:26] destruction of the northern kingdom, the [58:28] southern kingdom kind of appropriated [58:30] all their traditions and was like we're [58:31] Israel now, [58:32] >> right? And uh [58:33] >> and we're and we've got the lineage of [58:35] David. [58:36] >> Yeah. And the idea is, oh, we were [58:38] always Israel. The northern kingdom just [58:40] rebelled against us and that's why um [58:43] that's why they uh got destroyed in 7:22 [58:46] B.CE. [58:49] >> Is there any uh archaeological evidence [58:52] that Rayoboam and and Solomon were [58:55] Solomon a real person? [58:58] >> The scholars are a bit divided on that. [59:00] I think there are there are those who [59:02] would argue that David was uh probably a [59:06] real leader of a dynasty. We do have uh [59:09] the Tell Dan inscription. [59:11] >> I remember you talking about that [59:13] >> or the Teldan Steelely [59:15] uh no relation to Steelely Dan but um [59:18] that h that talks about how uh the [59:22] Haziel the Araan killed the somebody who [59:26] would have been the part of the house of [59:28] David. So that would have been a [59:29] dynasty, not a kingdom, just a dynasty [59:32] that that uh occupied Jerusalem. And so [59:37] it's it's certainly plausible that there [59:39] was a historical Solomon uh relationship [59:43] to David unclear uh because they you [59:46] know it tries to make David out to be [59:49] Saul's, you know, right-hand man [59:51] initially, right? Um, and uh, Saul then [59:55] is trying to kill David. And David is a, [59:57] you know, a mercenary for the for the [60:00] Phoenetians. Um, not not Phoenicians. Oh [60:03] my gosh. Did I say Phoenicians? I'm [60:04] having the worst time with with uh [60:07] [laughter] [60:07] names. [60:09] Oh my gosh. Um, who are the the sea [60:13] peoples? [60:14] >> Oh my gosh. I can't help you. Sorry. [60:17] [laughter] [60:17] >> You I mean, we've told that story. Go [60:19] back go back and look in our back [60:20] catalog. You'll get that story. Yeah, [60:22] you'll get that story. So, um, so [60:24] anyway, the a lot of these stories seem [60:27] to be coming from centuries later where [60:30] people are just kind of dressing it up [60:32] to serve their their memory of this [60:34] golden age. And and so there's a lot of [60:37] a lot of propaganda, a lot of fiction. [60:39] >> So, it's pos it's certainly possible. [60:41] Rayoboam, Jeroboam [60:44] more likely probably, I think, than than [60:46] Solomon to be to be historical. [60:49] >> Oh, really? Okay. [60:50] >> Yeah. Yeah, I think so. But it's really [60:52] about a hundred years after that that we [60:54] get into a period where we can begin to [60:57] archaeologically confirm [60:59] >> uh these kings. So the Omride dynasty is [61:03] uh is where things really take off and [61:06] uh and some scholar and and that was [61:08] probably the most successful ruler [61:11] ruling dynasty in Israel. Uh, and a and [61:15] some scholars think that it is the [61:17] memory of the Omrides that has been [61:19] shifted to David to make it seem like [61:21] David was really the one who expanded [61:24] Israel the most cuz we want the glory [61:26] down in the south, down in Jerusalem [61:29] rather than in Sheckchham in the north. [61:32] >> Okay, interesting. Well, there you go. [61:35] Uh, [61:36] Sheckchham if you got them and uh [61:38] [laughter] we'll we'll uh close it out [61:41] there. If you would like to help us make [61:44] this show go, please consider becoming [61:47] one of our patrons over on [61:48] patreon.com/data [music] [61:51] overdogma. You can just search it if you [61:53] want to uh you know be a become a [61:56] monthly subscriber and you could get [61:58] access to an early and adree version of [62:00] every show as well as access to our [62:04] afterparty which is a weekly we just do [62:07] it every week. Uh it's bonus material. [62:09] It's it's Dan and Dan at their best. A [62:12] lot of the guests come in and say cool [62:14] stuff. So, uh you you you don't want to [62:17] miss out on that. You you want to be a [62:19] part of it. So, [62:20] >> head on over there to Patreon and uh and [62:23] become a patron if you can. Uh if [62:27] otherwise, you can always leave us five [62:29] stars anywhere that five stars are [62:31] available to you. And you can, you know, [62:34] share us with your friends. That's [62:35] always very helpful and uh and we really [62:39] appreciate it. Thanks so much to Roger [62:41] Gaudy for editing the show and thanks to [62:43] you for tuning in. We'll see you again [62:45] next week. [62:46] >> Bye everybody. [62:50] [music] [62:51] >> Data Overdogma is a member of the [62:53] Airwave Media Network. It is a [62:55] production of Data Overdogma Media LLC. [62:57] Copyright 2025. All rights reserved. [63:00] What's something you learned in history [63:02] class that you feel like wasn't the [63:04] whole truth? Better yet, what's [63:06] something you didn't learn at all that [63:08] was omitted completely? That's what I [63:10] like to call redacted history. My name [63:13] is Andre White, the host of the Redacted [63:15] History Podcast. The place where [63:17] history's forgotten events, heroes, and [63:20] villains get their story told one [63:22] episode at a time. The Redacted History [63:25] Podcast. Real history never dies. Stream [63:29] the Redacted History podcast on Apple [63:31] Podcast, Spotify, or wherever else you [63:34] get your  ## Highlights - **Polygyny Is Deeply Embedded In Hebrew Scripture** - The Hebrew Bible frequently depicts and sometimes sanctions polygyny among key figures like Jacob, David, and Solomon. - This prevalence creates difficulty for modern readers who assume a single, unchanging divine moral standard. Transcript: Dan McClellan News we may have been we may by a couple weeks on this yeah that's okay there is a uh there's a pastor in like missouri named rich tidwell who posted back in june on his blog about basically Coming out as as polygamous yeah he has two wives and eight children between the two of them. Some of them have been adopted. But this, for whatever reason, people have only become aware of it recently, the beginning of November. Somebody went, oh, wait a minute. Wait, what? And so it has caused a bit of a firestorm on social media as evangelicals are swooping in to condemn this pastor who posted a biblical defense of polygamy on his blog. And I want to talk about the argument that he makes and then talk about whether or not I think it's supported by the data. Okay. But yeah. And, and certainly, you know, hijinks will ensue. There's plenty of opportunity for, for all kinds of, uh, of comedy and, uh, and other things. Dan Beecher I'm just going to put a marker down now, uh, be me being the ignorant guy on the podcast. I'm, I am definitely putting a marker down for the Bible supports polygamy quite a bit. Quite a bit. It may not be across the board. It may not ([Time 0:04:10](https://share.snipd.com/snip/73499e25-8ee4-474b-abe6-f401275be81c)) - **Pastor Rich Tidwell Sparks Controversy** - Dan McClellan describes the recent controversy around Missouri pastor Rich Tidwell, who publicly practices polygyny and posted a biblical defense. - The revelation sparked a social-media firestorm and evangelical condemnation. Transcript: Dan McClellan Yeah that's okay there is a uh there's a pastor in like missouri named rich tidwell who posted back in june on his blog about basically coming out as as polygamous yeah he has two wives And eight children between the two of them. Some of them have been adopted. But this, for whatever reason, people have only become aware of it recently, the beginning of November. Somebody went, oh, wait a minute. Wait, what? ([Time 0:04:13](https://share.snipd.com/snip/13d1ea01-4b95-496c-9b9e-79cdec1ce76c)) - **Greco‑Roman Culture Shifted Marriage Norms** - Polygyny becomes less common by the Greco-Roman period largely due to Greek philosophical and social influence, not because the Bible changed. - By the New Testament era, monogamy was culturally normative even if the Bible offered no sweeping biblical prohibition. Transcript: Dan McClellan Things start to change when we get to Greco-Roman period Judaism, and not because of the Bible, but in spite of the Bible. It's because of Greek philosophy and Greco-Roman social conventions and mores. Because while the Greeks and the Romans were pretty socially loose, maybe, you know, you wanted to—fidelity within marriage might not have been at the top of their list of priorities. But they did find polygyny to be a practice of weirdos. They didn't really like it. Right. And then there were Greek philosophical treatises that kind of talk about the structure of society and things like that in the household and how it's all supposed to work. And that endorsed monogamy as well. Although, you know, slaves were entirely permitted and everything like that. Totally fair game. Yeah. Dan Beecher And a side piece here and there is obviously fine. Right. Dan McClellan So this rubbed off on Greco-Roman period Judaism. And so they didn't come out and say, we no longer accept polygamy. But it was less and less common so that you didn't really see it happening because it wouldn't have been acceptable within this Greco-Roman context. And so by the time of the New Testament, polygamy is not really polygyny, excuse me. ([Time 0:15:24](https://share.snipd.com/snip/b7ed1bf5-896a-48e4-8858-df6278e8116b)) - **Leadership Standards Implicitly Favor Monogamy** - The New Testament contains no blanket ban on polygyny, but 1 Timothy 3:2 restricts church leaders to being 'a man of one wife.' - That restriction likely reflects emerging ecclesial standards, not a universal theological condemnation of polygyny. Transcript: Dan McClellan The one exception would be 1 Timothy 3.2. Now, 1 Timothy, pastoral epistle, not Paul. This is pseudo-Pauline. This is after Paul's death. This is somebody trying to appropriate Paul's authority by pretending to be Paul. But we have in this passage, the author is explaining what is required to be an overseer or a bishop and says that he must be a man of one woman, which is probably intended to address fidelity Within marriage and then not remarrying after either divorce or the death of a spouse. Because there was actually—and you see this in Matthew, that if a man divorces his wife for anything other than sexual infidelity, that he commits adultery by marrying another woman And causes her to commit adultery if she marries another man. So you weren't supposed to get remarried. You have one wife, that's your wife and that's it. Dan Beecher You used yours. You used your one. You ran out. Yeah. Dan McClellan But it does seem to suggest that they would not approve of a polygamous, polygynous marriage for a leader. ([Time 0:18:10](https://share.snipd.com/snip/92f4dd70-c380-4298-961b-7e4e4d06a889)) - **Grammar Tricks Don't Overturn Scholarly Reading** - Rich Tidwell's argument hinges on Greek grammar (mia vs. heis) to reinterpret 1 Timothy 3:2 as 'husband of his first wife.' - Dan McClellan calls that grammar-based defense 'nonsensical' and notes no scholars support that reading. Transcript: Dan McClellan It's not necessarily saying any follower of Jesus cannot do this, but it probably would have been a standard that became pretty widespread. So we do have one passage that does seem to prohibit polygyny in the New Testament, and Rich Tidwell is not ignorant of that passage. So he makes an argument for why 1 Timothy 3.2 does not prohibit polygyny. He says, in 1 Timothy 3.2, Paul utilizes the Greek word mia, which we translated as one in English. And he talks a little bit about this in another passage. Although mia may translate as an indefinite one or a, as in the indefinite article, in the context of marriage in 1 Timothy 3.2, mia means ordinal, first. If Paul intended to communicate a man must have numeral one wife to be in ministry, he would have employed the word peace, as he did in 1 Timothy 5.9, the same epistle, because peace explicitly Means numeral one. Mia must be used in 1 Timothy 3, 2 as a grammatical rule. Read my response titled The Mia and He Saga. Therefore, 1 Timothy 3, 2 ought to be translated the husband of his first wife. As Paul, like Jesus, is preventing hypergamy and divorce. In other words, he still has to be married to his first wife. Should I make a guess as to your response to this? Dan Beecher Let's see. Because I don't know anything about the grammar or words of Greek, but I'm going to guess that you're going to object to his explanation of how these words are used. Dan McClellan Yes, it's nonsensical. He says a man who divorces his first wife to marry another, as Jesus prohibits in Matthew 19, 19, I'll see also Malachi 2, 15 through 16, is not fit for eldership in the church. Paul is not addressing polygyny nor disqualifying the patriarchs from And then he goes on to say something interesting. Resurrected a possibility according to Matthew 27, 52 to 53. They would not be permitted to hold office or preach in the church. These polygamous men wrote or are featured in many of our holy scriptures, but we wouldn't give them a microphone today? What utter nonsense. I believe the answer to these questions lies in Romans 11, 23. These polygamous men of the Bible were called by God and retained their offices despite their having several wives. And I saw somebody who responded to that particular argument by barking that, yes, absolutely, they would be prohibited from being pastors. And they went on to say even God prohibited David from building the temple because he was a man of war, and so God can withhold certain offices and responsibilities from people. He didn't address Jacob or Abraham. But I think that's an interesting argument. And yeah, the 1 Timothy 3.2, the notion that Mia and Heath really carry these significant differences that must be maintained, context independent, doesn't really work. It can be used that way, but it doesn't mean we have to use it. ([Time 0:23:43](https://share.snipd.com/snip/67a02a4f-2927-45b3-8328-b40a48e18e6d)) - **Acknowledge Cultural Change In Biblical Arguments** - When debating biblical morality on polygyny, avoid assuming divine immutability forces a single interpretation across eras. - Instead, acknowledge cultural influence and be transparent about interpretive choices. Transcript: Dan McClellan And this is another thing that he talks about. According to the Bible, God does not change. Right. So God is okay with polygamy in the Hebrew Bible. God is okay with polygamy in the New Testament. And this is something that is a bit of a problem for the folks who want to understand the Bible to be condemning polygamy. Why would God allow it in one part of the Bible and then prohibit it in another if God does not change? Dan Beecher Allow it in the most important figures in the Bible. Yeah, and condone and even endorse it, yeah. Dan McClellan And so it does raise the question of, you know, we have other—well, not we as in me, but a lot of these folks assert certain dogmas about God's unchanging nature and about the universality Of the moral principles on which the gospel is founded. How do you get around that? And that is why I think you have a lot of folks who try to argue that God actually prohibited or didn't like polygyny, just tolerated it. Like, I'm not sure about this, but I'll see where this is going. ([Time 0:28:39](https://share.snipd.com/snip/e2741b8c-625d-4f43-879e-69e353031f1b)) - **Narrative Conflict Doesn't Equal Divine Disapproval** - Appeals that polygyny is always shown as problematic in the Bible are weak because the Hebrew Bible portrays conflict in most relationships. - Using narrative dysfunction as proof God disapproves of polygyny is inconsistent. Transcript: Dan McClellan It's like every relationship in the Hebrew Bible is characterized by tension and conflict. Dan Beecher Every relationship in humanity is characterized by, like, I don't know if you've had a spouse or a relationship, but you're going to have conflict. That is, that's a guarantee. Dan McClellan And they're like, bad things always happen. It's like, Adam and Eve are a monogamous marriage. The worst thing happened. Right. Yeah. And, you know, you've got all kinds of circumstances. Like, everybody who has a brother in the Hebrew Bible runs into all kinds of problems. It's like, does that mean that having a brother is frowned upon? God's like, I don't know about this one. Dan Beecher Let's get him. You know, I think it's so interesting that the Bible is so obviously explicit about this and so overwhelmingly so loaded with it as, you know, example after example. ([Time 0:29:57](https://share.snipd.com/snip/c01c48d8-7cea-46c0-9975-10f96ab3e2da)) - **Solomon's Problem Was Idolatry, Not Multiplicity** - Solomon's numerous wives (700 wives, 300 concubines) are recorded without an outright biblical moral condemnation of polygyny. - The narrative problem highlighted is foreign wives leading Solomon into idolatry, not polygyny itself. Transcript: Dan Beecher And that works on two different levels. Well, we might get to the rest of that. But yeah, I mean, what does he have? 700 wives and 300 concubines or something like, according to the thing. So like, and you know, there's no part of that that's condemned. There are things that like the Bible's like, oh, Solomon wasn't good about this or whatever, but it's not that. Except that they're foreign wives. Dan McClellan Yes, they're foreign wives and they influence him towards. And people will bring that up as well. Well, look what happened to Solomon with all them foreign wives. It's like, well, he still had more than one local wife and that didn't cause any problems. God wasn't like, I'm not too hot on that other thing either. Dan Beecher And his dad was like, his dad was loaded up too. Yeah. David, David had multiple wives as well. Yep. So I don't know. ([Time 0:31:06](https://share.snipd.com/snip/f7178a51-86e4-42c6-a34c-c1a757afafce)) - **Be Clear When Presenting Biblical Data** - When discussing polygyny publicly, separate descriptive biblical data from personal endorsement. - State scholarly conclusions clearly to avoid being miscast as defending a practice you personally reject. Transcript: Dan Beecher Of the two of us, I'm the one who's more likely to come to the defense of yes of uh of a non-traditional uh uh marriage slash uh love practices yes i suppose i don't i don't support polygyny Religiously mandated polygyny i certainly don't support that certainly not yeah and and and and i think that's one of the the big issues is is if it is something that is religiously sanctioned, Dan McClellan Then I think it does pressure folks, particularly young folks growing up in that kind of society that conditions them to think this is my role. This is what I have to do. We need to repeal the 19th Amendment only because the men around them in their lives, you know, kind of in control of their worldview are conditioning them and convincing them that they Need to defend that particular limit to their agency. ([Time 0:38:44](https://share.snipd.com/snip/f21c7b33-634b-4184-a2bd-8793c178b06f)) - **Text Emphasizes Apostasy Over Marital Count** - 1 Kings 11 frames Solomon's downfall as religious apostasy caused by foreign wives, not merely the fact of having many wives. - The text stresses worship of other gods as the primary transgression. Transcript: Dan Beecher And the chapter, I guess what we're going to do is we're going to get to 1 Kings chapter 11. Yeah. And this is the thing. It starts out with talking about the marriages of Solomon and the fact that he loved many women, many foreign women. That was the problem. It wasn't the many women. It was the fact that they were Moabite and Ammonite and Edomite and Sidian and Hittite women. Yes. And not only was he in love with these women, but he was building shrines to their gods on the hills. So that's sort of the, yeah, 700 princesses and 300 concubines. Princesses? Okay. I have seen wives in translations. Dan McClellan What does it say? It says Nashim, which would mean women or wives in Hebrew. Why does it say princesses? Dan Beecher Oh, N-R Are you getting sassy? Dan McClellan Oh, Sherot. No, no. It says wives and then it says Sarot, which would be the feminine plural of Sar, which would be a prince or a nobleman. So yeah, princesses and 300 concubines. Dan Beecher So wait, it says among his wives 700 princesses. Yeah. The non-princesses probably, there's a couple hundred more of those. Who knows? Again, it's those Chamberlain numbers. Dan McClellan Yeah. And yeah, who knows how many trombones and the camels. Yes, June, love the camels. I have no idea. See how I was able to bring in not just the music man, but also Aladdin. Yeah, man, you went all over the map with that. You encircled the globe twice on that one. But it says, when Solomon was old, his wives turned away his heart after other gods, and his heart was not true to the Lord God as was the heart of his father David kind of yeah kind of David Dan Beecher Kind of got the the raw end of the heart David fudged the rules a little bit uh here and there but sure yeah uh so and but I mean I think the main thing is and this is something that we've talked About the main one of the things that we need to remember here is that uh and one of the things that was never talked about in my religious upbringing, was the fact that these other gods That Solomon was kind of falling prey to were real gods. Dan McClellan They believed them to be, yes. ([Time 0:41:19](https://share.snipd.com/snip/9e699cf3-5088-4995-bd22-448d81fec934)) - **Rehoboam's Folly Splits The Kingdom** - The hosts retell Rehoboam's bad decision to follow youthful advisors, leading to Israel's split and violent rejection. - Dan Beecher jokes the 'pinky' boast was replaced by a harsher threat, and the people stoned the taskmaster sent to enforce labor. Transcript: Dan McClellan Oh, so anyway, a lot of people made trouble in Solomon's neighborhood. They were up to no good. And then Jeroboam shows up and he's like a day laborer and he's coming down to Jerusalem and he's helping out with stuff. And verse 28 says, when Solomon saw that the young man was industrious, he gave him charge over all the forced labor of the house of Joseph. And so forced labor, this would be corve labor. This is the king of Judah requiring that the people from the northern kingdom who would have been subjugated to Judah require they send folks on a certain schedule to come do forced labor. So this is not really slavery. It's something a bit different. And then Jeroboam's leaving Jerusalem, workday's over, he's going home, and a prophet Ahijah, the Shiloh knight, found him on the road, and he had a new garment on, and he gives it to Jeroboam, but tears it into 12 pieces, which is kind of like, cool, thanks. What? Thanks for the shirt. I guess it's rags now? Yeah. He says, take for yourself 10 pieces. For thus says the Lord, the God of Israel. Yeah. So it's this symbolic, you know, the prophet's always doing weird symbolic stuff. Look at this jar. I'm going to break this jar. Look, I'm nude. Look, I'm tearing your coat into 12 pieces. Dan Beecher Can you put your clothes back on, please? No? Oh, you're tearing it up. Great. Dan McClellan Okay. So basically the 10 pieces represent the 10 tribes of Israel, which would be the northern kingdom. Dan Beecher So what he's saying is Jeroboam is going to get to be king, even though he's just this day laborer guy. Dan McClellan Yeah, the prophet is like, hey, guess what? You're going to take over 10 of the 12 tribes of Israel. And Jeroboam is represented as rather humble, but Solomon finds out about this. And Solomon- You never want that. That's never any good. Solomon, not happy. But so he tries to kill Jeroboam. Jeroboam promptly flees to Egypt, to King Shishak of Egypt, and he remains in Egypt until Solomon dies. Yeah. And then Solomon's dead, reigned in Jerusalem 40 years, slept with his ancestors, was buried in the city of his father David, and his son Rehoboam succeeded him. Now, Rehoboam, and here's the thing, there was never a single united kingdom. Scholars are pretty sure that Judah in the south and Israel in the north were originally separate kingdoms. And there would have been a time maybe where Israel might have subjugated the southern kingdom, or maybe the southern kingdom subjugated the northern kingdom, which is how it's represented In this text, which is, by the way, being written from the perspective of somebody who lived in the southern kingdom. And so Rehoboam goes up to Shechem, which is the capital of the northern kingdom, for all Israel had come to Shechem to make him king. And then Jeroboam heard about it, and he comes back from Egypt. Or no, he stays in Egypt, and they call him. And they sent and called him and Jeroboam and all the assembly of Israel came and said to Rehoboam, Your father made our yoke heavy. So, you know, Jeroboam is a forced laborer. Now, therefore, lighten the hard service of your father and his heavy yoke that he placed on us, and we will serve you. Basically saying, look, the northern kingdom, your dad was mean to us. If you will be nicer to us, we will happily be part of your kingdom. Right. Dan Beecher Chill out a little bit. Let's be kind, rewind, and maybe we can all get along. Dan McClellan And King Rehoboam took counsel with the older men who had attended his father Solomon while he was still alive, saying, how do you advise me to answer the people? So he's basically going to the elders, who were his dad's advisors, and they said, if you will be a servant to this people and serve them and speak good words to them when you answer them, Then they will be your servants forever. Then he went to the cool kids, the younger crowd. Right. And who grew up with him. So his Stephen Miller's of the world, his friends. And and he says, what do you advise? Uh, and they said, thus you should say to this people who spoke to you, your father made your REO kevy, but you must lighten this for us. Thus you should say to them, my little finger is thicker than my father's loins, which is, I'm going to assume that means what I think it means. Dan Beecher It does. Dan McClellan He's, up his pinky and going, you know, this is bigger than my dad's Johnson. Dan Beecher Meaning I suppose that like my dad was a wimp. Yeah. And because having a big schlong makes you stronger as a human, as a person or something, makes you more powerful as a man. Dan McClellan Yeah, the one with the bigger schnitzengroobing is the man or man. So he says, my father disciplined you with whips, but I will discipline you with scorpions. So he liked the sound of that more than the elder's recommendation that... Dan Beecher I want to make it worse for these people rather than better. Yeah. Though I got to say, scorpions, I'd probably take a scorpion over a whip. Dan McClellan Whips seem like they do way more damage to me. Because, yeah, he wants to flex on him. Yeah. And, you know, that's the tendency. And show off the girth of his little pinky. Yeah. See, that ring, that's like a 12. That's a 13. So Jeroboam and all the people came to Rehoboam the third day, as the king had said. Come to me again the third day. The king answered the people harshly. He disregarded the advice that the older men had given him and spoke to them according to the advice of the young men. My father made your yoke heavy, but I will add to your yoke. ([Time 0:48:56](https://share.snipd.com/snip/52b5d4a9-1f9e-4b37-b1de-716801564734))