Popping the WordPress Bubble - CourtneyR.dev's 2nd Brain

Popping the WordPress Bubble ![rw-book-cover](https://share.snipd.com/share-image/resize?url=https%3A%2F%2Fimg.transistorcdn.com%2FYJfyq7ud2orYr_2i_v6hYJZt8pGmNGKqURWt0BkDAJI%2Frs%3Afill%3A0%3A0%3A1%2Fw%3A1400%2Fh%3A1400%2Fq%3A60%2Fmb%3A500000%2FaHR0cHM6Ly9pbWct%2FdXBsb2FkLXByb2R1%2FY3Rpb24udHJhbnNp%2Fc3Rvci5mbS9zaG93%2FLzM3NjI2LzE2NzMz%2FNzE3NjYtYXJ0d29y%2Fay5qcGc.jpg&width=512&height=512) ## Document Notes > [!note]+ Document Notes > tags: [wordpress, ai-development, agency-business, web-development] > author: Matt Cromwell > source: YouTube > reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WoGgDzpaJaM > date created: 2025-01-27 00:00 > > # 🏷️ Title: Popping the WordPress Bubble >  ## 🧰 Action Inbox - [H1] Evaluate whether WordPress fits each client project — avoid shoehorning #business - [H2] Build multi-disciplinary tech stack as agency scales — 12:30 #strategy - [H3] Focus on core competency first before expanding — 10:45 #growth ## 🧭 Table of Contents - [📝 Summary](#-summary) - [📖 Main Content](#-main-content) - [🗒️ Notes](#️-notes) - [📚 References](#-references) - [🗣️ Paraphrase](#️-paraphrase) - [📰 Newsletter](#-newsletter) - [✅ Action Items](#-action-items) - [🧪 Hypotheses](#-hypotheses) - [📊 Methodology](#-methodology) - [❓ Questions](#-questions) - [🔮 Future Research](#-future-research) - [💡 Implications](#-implications) - [🧠 Learning Styles Assessment](#-learning-styles-assessment) - [📊 Accessibility Assessment](#-accessibility-assessment) - [🌍 DEIB Assessment](#-deib-assessment) - [✅ Logical Validity](#-logical-validity) - [🛡️ DARVO Analysis](#-darvo-analysis) - [🎯 Conclusion](#-conclusion) ### 🔗 References - [Original LinkedIn Post by Jay Owen](https://linkedin.com) - [WordPress Abilities API](https://wordpress.org) ## 📝 Summary - Matt Cromwell responds to a LinkedIn post claiming agencies should abandon WordPress for "AI-driven workflows" - He argues the "WordPress bubble" perception comes from being within WordPress communities, not from WordPress being oversold - WordPress has value as open source software with continuity, community support, and established standards - Agencies should choose the right tool for each project rather than forcing WordPress into everything - AI coding has limitations in iteration and long-term maintenance compared to established platforms ## 📖 Main Content Matt Cromwell addresses claims that WordPress agencies are in a "bubble" and should abandon WordPress for AI-driven development. He argues that the bubble perception comes from participating in WordPress communities rather than WordPress being inappropriately promoted. WordPress serves specific use cases well - content publishing, e-commerce, memberships, donations - but isn't meant for everything. The key is for agencies to understand their core competencies and choose appropriate tools per project. Open source benefits like transparency, continuity between developers, and community support provide advantages over custom AI-generated code that only exists within one agency. While AI can help with initial development, it has limitations in iteration and lacks the 20-year foundation of WordPress. ## 🗒️ Notes #### ⏱️ [00:00](https://youtu.be/WoGgDzpaJaM?t=0) — [H1] LinkedIn Post Triggers Discussion - Key idea: Jay Owen posted about abandoning WordPress for "AI-driven workflow" - Evidence: "We're done with WordPress. Our agency is abandoning WordPress development this year for a full AI-driven workflow" #### ⏱️ [02:15](https://youtu.be/WoGgDzpaJaM?t=135) — [H2] WordPress Bubble is Perspective Issue - Key idea: The bubble exists only within WordPress communities discussing WordPress - Evidence: "If you're hearing this stuff at WordCamps and in WordPress communities... you're literally on the home court of the piece of software" #### ⏱️ [03:45](https://youtu.be/WoGgDzpaJaM?t=225) — [H3] WordPress Has Specific Use Cases - Key idea: WordPress works well for websites, e-commerce, memberships, donations, content distribution - Evidence: "At its essence, we're publishing words on the internet... getting content out there" #### ⏱️ [05:30](https://youtu.be/WoGgDzpaJaM?t=330) — [H2] Agency Responsibility to Choose Right Tool - Key idea: Agency owners must determine if WordPress fits each project - Evidence: "When somebody came to me with a particular project and it didn't fit, we didn't build it" #### ⏱️ [08:15](https://youtu.be/WoGgDzpaJaM?t=495) — [H3] Shoehorning WordPress Harms Business - Key idea: Forcing WordPress into wrong projects damages both agency and client - Evidence: "If you're shoehorning that solution into WordPress... you're harming your business" #### ⏱️ [10:45](https://youtu.be/WoGgDzpaJaM?t=645) — [H2] Build Core Competency First - Key idea: Master WordPress business before expanding to other technologies - Evidence: "Take care of your core competency first to build a healthy business" #### ⏱️ [12:30](https://youtu.be/WoGgDzpaJaM?t=750) — [H3] Multi-disciplinary Growth Strategy - Key idea: Successful agencies add Shopify, Webflow after scaling WordPress - Evidence: "There are agencies out there that once they scale the business of WordPress, they go 'What's next?'" #### ⏱️ [15:20](https://youtu.be/WoGgDzpaJaM?t=920) — [H2] Open Source Provides Transparency - Key idea: Open source allows understanding code, building on top, seeing decision trails - Evidence: "People want to know what's happening with the code. They want to be able to understand it" #### ⏱️ [18:00](https://youtu.be/WoGgDzpaJaM?t=1080) — [H3] WordPress Offers Continuity - Key idea: WordPress installations are identical across sites, providing consistency - Evidence: "When you install it on 100 sites, it is the same to the decimal point" #### ⏱️ [19:45](https://youtu.be/WoGgDzpaJaM?t=1185) — [H2] Client Insurance Through Portability - Key idea: Clients can move WordPress sites between agencies - Evidence: "I can take my WordPress site and bring it to XYZ firm and they can build on top of it" #### ⏱️ [22:30](https://youtu.be/WoGgDzpaJaM?t=1350) — [H3] Team Training Challenges with AI - Key idea: Training teams to support custom AI-generated code is difficult - Evidence: "How do you train the team to support that?" #### ⏱️ [25:15](https://youtu.be/WoGgDzpaJaM?t=1515) — [H2] AI Iteration Problems - Key idea: AI coding works well initially but degrades with modifications - Evidence: "Your first one-shot app... it's pretty awesome. But that 20% is nearly the hardest" #### ⏱️ [27:00](https://youtu.be/WoGgDzpaJaM?t=1620) — [H3] AI Training vs Thinking - Key idea: AI models are trained on data, not actually thinking or learning - Evidence: "These things aren't thinking... it's really just quickly comparing and disseminating what answer you want" ## 📚 References - [WordPress Abilities API](https://wordpress.org) - [Jay Owen LinkedIn Profile](https://linkedin.com) - [The WP Minute](https://thewpmin.com) ## 🗣️ Paraphrase - The perceived "WordPress bubble" stems from participating in WordPress-focused communities rather than WordPress being oversold as a universal solution - Successful agencies understand WordPress's strengths in content publishing and specific use cases while choosing appropriate tools for projects outside that scope - Open source WordPress provides transparency, continuity, and portability advantages over custom AI-generated solutions that exist only within individual agencies ## 📰 Newsletter Matt Cromwell tackles the hot debate about WordPress agencies being in a "bubble" and whether AI should replace WordPress development. His key insight: the bubble is really about perspective - if you're deep in WordPress communities, of course you'll hear WordPress solutions discussed! The practical takeaway for WordPress professionals is refreshingly clear: don't force WordPress into every project. Instead, build your core WordPress competency first, then expand to complementary technologies like Shopify or Webflow as you scale. What makes this especially valuable is Cromwell's emphasis on WordPress's unique advantages - open source transparency, cross-agency portability, and 20 years of community knowledge that AI can't replicate overnight. Resources: [Learn WordPress](https://learn.wordpress.org/), [Developer Docs](https://developer.wordpress.org/), [WP-CLI](https://wp-cli.org/) ## ✅ Action Items #### DevRel - Developer advocacy: Create content showing WordPress + AI integration possibilities - Education: Develop workshops on choosing right tools per project - Developer experience: Document WordPress Abilities API integration patterns - Community management: Moderate discussions about WordPress vs AI development #### WordPress - Core AI: Continue Abilities API development with clear use cases - Community: Address "bubble" perceptions with broader use case examples - Marketing: Highlight WordPress + AI complementary relationship - Documentation: Create project fit assessment guides for developers ## 🧪 Hypotheses - WordPress agencies in focused communities overestimate WordPress adoption pressure - AI-generated code becomes harder to maintain with iteration compared to established platforms - Open source continuity provides competitive advantage over custom AI solutions - Agency success correlates with matching technology to project requirements rather than technology specialization ### 📊 Methodology - Survey agencies about project selection criteria and tool choice rationale - Compare maintenance costs between AI-generated sites and WordPress sites over 12 months - Analyze developer transition rates between agencies using different tech stacks ### ❓ Questions - How do successful multi-disciplinary agencies decide between WordPress and other solutions? - What metrics indicate when an agency should expand beyond WordPress? - How will AI coding tools integrate with WordPress development workflows? ### 🔮 Future Research - Long-term sustainability comparison between AI-generated and WordPress solutions - Client satisfaction differences across various technology stacks - Developer career progression patterns in specialized vs multi-disciplinary agencies ### 💡 Implications - Practice: Agencies need clear project assessment frameworks beyond just WordPress capability - Policy: WordPress community should promote appropriate use cases rather than universal application - Education: Developer training should include technology selection criteria, not just implementation skills - Business: Specialized agencies may need expansion strategies as AI tools lower development barriers ### 🧠 Learning Styles Assessment Reading level estimate: 10th Grade #### 👀 Visual learners - Present: None identified in audio format - Improve: Add comparison charts of WordPress vs AI development workflows, decision trees for project assessment #### 🔊 Aural learners - Present: Full audio discussion with examples and analogies - Improve: Add chapter markers, summary audio clips #### 🗣️ Verbal learners - Present: Clear definitions of terms, business analogies (oxygen mask example) - Improve: Glossary of technical terms, more business case studies #### 🧩 Kinesthetic learners - Present: None in audio format - Improve: Project assessment checklists, hands-on WordPress + AI integration labs #### 🧠 Logical learners - Present: Structured arguments, cause-effect relationships (bubble perception explanation) - Improve: Decision matrices, ROI calculations for different approaches #### 🧑‍🤝‍🧑 Social learners - Present: Community discussion context, agency collaboration examples - Improve: Peer discussion prompts, agency case study sharing #### 🧘‍♀️ Solitary learners - Present: Individual business owner perspective, self-assessment prompts - Improve: Personal reflection questions, solo project evaluation worksheets #### 🌿 Naturalistic learners - Present: Technology ecosystem metaphors, growth patterns - Improve: More ecosystem analogies, sustainable business development concepts ### 📊 Accessibility Assessment #### Screen reader semantics - Present: Clear audio content with logical flow - Improve: Transcript with proper heading structure, time-stamped navigation #### Keyboard navigation - Present: Standard video player controls - Improve: Custom chapter navigation, transcript interaction #### Contrast and readability - Present: Audio-only content eliminates visual contrast issues - Improve: High-contrast transcript formatting #### Text resizing and reflow - Present: Audio content not affected by text sizing - Improve: Responsive transcript design #### Media and captions - Present: Full transcript provided - Improve: SRT caption file, downloadable transcript #### Forms and interactions - Present: No forms in content - Improve: Not applicable ### 🌍 DEIB Assessment #### Cultural breadth - Present: US-focused agency business perspective - Improve: Global WordPress agency examples, international business contexts #### Inclusive language - Present: Gender-neutral business terms, avoids exclusionary jargon - Improve: Define technical terms more consistently #### Neurodiversity support - Present: Clear audio pacing, logical argument structure - Improve: Content chapters, visual transcript organization #### Representation - Present: Single male perspective from established WordPress professional - Improve: Include diverse agency owner voices, different business scales #### Psychological safety - Present: Respectful disagreement tone, acknowledges multiple perspectives - Improve: Explicit acknowledgment of different valid approaches ### ✅ Logical Validity #### Strong reasoning - Deductive strength: Strong - "If you're in WordPress communities, you'll hear WordPress solutions" leads to bubble perception - Inductive strength: Moderate - Uses personal agency experience to generalize about industry - Causal reasoning: Strong - Links tool selection to business outcomes with clear mechanisms - Analogical strength: Strong - Oxygen mask analogy effectively illustrates business priority principle #### Fallacies - Ad hominem: Mentions Jay Owen's AI conference banner and marketing motivations rather than addressing arguments directly - False dichotomy: Occasionally presents WordPress vs AI as either/or choice rather than complementary tools #### Tone of voice - Overall tone: Conversational and experienced, with occasional defensive moments when discussing WordPress criticism ### 🛡️ DARVO Analysis - Deny: No significant denial patterns identified - Attack: Mild criticism of original poster's marketing motivations and AI conference promotion - Reverse victim/offender: No reversal patterns observed - Emotional cues and rhetoric: Protective of WordPress community, passionate but not manipulative ## 🎯 Conclusion WordPress isn't experiencing a bubble problem - it's experiencing a perspective problem within its own communities. The solution isn't abandoning WordPress for AI, but rather building stronger business practices around tool selection. Agencies should master WordPress for appropriate use cases while expanding to complementary technologies as they scale. Open source advantages and community continuity provide lasting value that current AI solutions cannot replicate. ## 🧱 Refactor Appendix ### 📚 Literature Split Pad Purpose: Stage CEE units that become Literature notes. Split level: H3 ### [L1] WordPress bubble perception stems from community participation > [!quote] [Popping the WordPress Bubble](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WoGgDzpaJaM) by [[Matt Cromwell]] via [[YouTube]]. Published 2025-01-27. Accessed 2025-01-27. > "If you're hearing this stuff at WordCamps and in WordPress communities... you're literally on the home court of the piece of software." Community immersion creates perception of overselling rather than actual overselling occurring. [view highlight](https://youtu.be/WoGgDzpaJaM?t=135#L1) #xref #articleseed ID:rw_bubble_perception ### [L2] Agency success requires appropriate tool selection > [!quote] [Popping the WordPress Bubble](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WoGgDzpaJaM) > "If you're shoehorning that solution into WordPress... you're harming your business." Project-tool fit determines business outcomes more than technology specialization. [view highlight](https://youtu.be/WoGgDzpaJaM?t=495#L2) #xref ID:rw_tool_selection ### [L3] Open source provides continuity advantages over custom solutions > [!quote] [Popping the WordPress Bubble](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WoGgDzpaJaM) > "When you install it on 100 sites, it is the same to the decimal point." Standardization enables cross-team collaboration and client portability. [view highlight](https://youtu. --- ## Full Transcript [00:00] All right. I said I wasn't going to [00:01] remark on this, but I think I'm going to [00:03] because why not. So, there's a uh [00:06] LinkedIn post by this guy Jay Owen. I [00:09] won't link to it, but you can search for [00:10] him. It starts out with his, of course, [00:13] clickbait intro written for LinkedIn, [00:16] probably assisted by AI considering he [00:18] has a join my AI conference banner on [00:22] his profile. We're done with WordPress. [00:24] Our agency is abandoning WordPress [00:27] development this year for a full [00:29] AIdriven workflow. I don't even know [00:32] what that means. Probably written by AI. [00:37] Then I took to uh Twitter to remark on [00:39] this because this was uh posted by Jeff [00:42] Chandler and of course friend of the [00:45] show Mark Samsky says it's nuance and I [00:48] sort of agree with this mentality. Well [00:50] young Mark and others here's my [00:52] thoughts. [00:54] WordPress has never been [00:58] the catch-all tool for everything. [01:01] And if you think we're living in this [01:02] bubble where it has been promoted in [01:05] that fashion, I would say, well, you're [01:07] in the bubble of WordPress agencies and [01:09] freelancers who are constantly talking [01:12] about it and wanting it to be a better [01:15] tool for XYZ, whatever XYZ means to [01:19] them. It's either a blogging platform, a [01:22] true content management system for the [01:23] enterprise, a professional website [01:25] builder tool. It's the unfortunate and [01:28] fortunate thing of WordPress is it just [01:30] doesn't have that one lane. And you can [01:32] sit here and debate what your favorite [01:34] page builder is and what WordPress [01:36] should be doing from a page building [01:38] perspective. But the beauty of WordPress [01:41] is that you can crack it open and at its [01:44] essence, we're publishing words on the [01:45] internet. Okay? We're getting content [01:48] out there. we're getting our message out [01:50] there and then WordPress has of course [01:52] its own way of doing things on with with [01:56] of course the Gutenberg project the [01:58] editor the site editor and how they want [02:00] you know to build sites but its essence [02:02] is an open source tool to put stuff on [02:05] the internet and when I hear people say [02:08] that [02:10] you know we're we're trying to force [02:12] feed WordPress into into everything I [02:16] would have to say that [02:18] maybe it seems that way from [02:22] a particular perspective or a particular [02:24] vantage point. Once again, if you're [02:27] hearing this stuff at word camps and in [02:29] WordPress communities and in WordPress [02:31] podcasts and in WordPress YouTube [02:33] videos, well, you're watching a [02:35] WordPress YouTube video and I'm [02:37] listening to a WordPress podcast and [02:38] going to a WordPress conference. So, [02:41] yes, it's going to seem like you're in [02:43] the bubble, but you're literally on the [02:45] home court of the piece of software. [02:50] When I was an agency owner, [02:53] the solution wasn't always WordPress. [02:56] Granted, that was 10 years ago. I'm [02:59] hoping that 10 years forward that people [03:01] say WordPress isn't for everything. [03:04] However, if you have a website, [03:07] e-commerce platform, membership [03:10] product you're trying to build, maybe [03:12] WordPress is the solution. And then [03:16] there's like the [03:18] 10% maybe even 1% outer edge. [03:22] Do you need some kind of intermediary [03:24] app to develop to write and and curate [03:27] and publish content to which it's then [03:29] distributed out to other platforms like [03:31] mobile apps and other headless systems? [03:33] Well, maybe WordPress is a solution for [03:35] that. Maybe you need a donation site, a [03:38] nonprofit site. Maybe WordPress is a [03:41] solution for that. [03:43] And when I see people say that we're in [03:47] a bubble or WordPress is not the AI [03:51] forward solution moving forward, [03:54] well, a few things come to mind. Number [03:57] one, the bubble thing. Well, I think I [03:59] just answered that. like you're in a [04:02] WordPress [04:03] community. We're all talking about [04:05] WordPress, but the onus is up to the [04:08] agency owner and the freelancer to say [04:11] maybe WordPress isn't the right [04:12] solution. So, it's not a particular [04:15] bubble that we're creating. It's maybe a [04:18] bubble that people are perceiving [04:21] because when I was that agency owner and [04:23] somebody came to me with a particular [04:24] project and it didn't fit, we didn't [04:26] build it. And since the core competency [04:30] of my agency was WordPress design and [04:33] development and support, we didn't [04:36] recommend another tool. [04:38] I'm sure there are agencies out there um [04:42] like my good friend good friends at uh [04:46] at uh Barrel Holdings which has a ton of [04:50] different like agencies in their [04:52] portfolios. Well, they have WordPress [04:54] solutions, they have Shopify solutions, [04:55] they have web flow solutions. So, if [04:57] you're going to an agency like that that [04:59] is multiddisciplinary, [05:02] then maybe another solution comes out. [05:05] And I said this in a tweet. [05:09] If you're an agency owner and you're [05:12] trying to take on a project that you're [05:15] unsure that WordPress can solve [05:19] and you're shoehorning that solution [05:23] into WordPress for the sake of doing it [05:25] in WordPress because that's all you know [05:27] potentially you're harming your [05:28] business. [05:31] And the same goes for if you're rolling [05:35] out that project for a customer and [05:36] you're giving that customer WordPress, [05:38] you're doing your customer a disservice. [05:43] I'm going to remark on the uh AI stuff [05:45] that this J guy mentioned a little bit, [05:47] but I think [05:49] what we're really missing the point on [05:51] here is we must educate [05:55] the freelancers and hopefully by the [05:57] time they're they go from freelancer to [05:59] agency owner, even if it's a boutique [06:01] agency, two, three people, 10 people, by [06:05] that time they've they've realized I've [06:08] leveled up my business. I understand [06:11] what works for the business. [06:14] Therefore, I can serve this group of [06:16] customers. In other words, take care of [06:18] yourself first. When the oxygen ma mask [06:21] drops, put it on yourself first so you [06:24] don't pass out before you try to get it [06:26] to the person next to you. [06:31] WordPress has never been, no one has [06:34] ever said, [06:36] "Oh, you're trying to build some kind [06:38] of, [06:41] you know, registry app that connects to [06:44] government APIs and some kind of uh [06:47] commercial ERP system and it has to have [06:50] uh mobile readiness and interactivity on [06:53] all." No one has ever said like, "Oh, [06:54] you should use you could use WordPress [06:56] maybe, but no one has ever said, oh, [06:59] certainly WordPress solves that. [07:05] So, we have to understand what the [07:10] abilities are, no pun intended, of [07:12] WordPress [07:14] as the freelancer/ agency owner. [07:19] Take care of your core competency first [07:21] to build a healthy business. [07:24] Understand which lane you can serve [07:28] through WordPress. And if you want to [07:30] become multi-disciplinary, [07:32] then you can learn another technology [07:35] stack alongside that. First thing that [07:38] comes to mind is a Shopify or a web [07:42] flow. There are agencies out there that [07:45] once they scale the business of [07:46] WordPress, they go, "What's next?" Okay, [07:49] maybe we bring in Shopify. Maybe we [07:52] bring in Web Flow. Maybe we bring in Woo [07:55] Commerce, right? As like a whole other [07:57] thing. Just because you know WordPress [07:59] doesn't mean you know Woo Commerce, you [08:01] know, depending on who you are and how [08:02] long you've been in the business. [08:06] Get grounded in the business first. Then [08:09] understand [08:11] at some point of of scale, have I scaled [08:14] to the point where I can no longer grow [08:16] with this solution and now I must bring [08:19] in other streams of revenue. Therefore, [08:21] I must learn another technology. [08:28] Why do people choose WordPress to begin [08:30] with? [08:32] I think if you're new to the space, it's [08:35] easy to criticize [08:38] people that just say, "Oh, you're just [08:40] picking WordPress because you're a fan, [08:43] right? You love this stuff. Uh you're [08:45] just you're you're you're tied to the [08:48] old ways, right?" Is as one of the [08:50] remark that Jay Owen has said again. And [08:53] and he retweets his or not retweets, he [08:56] reposts his LinkedIn post where he says, [08:58] "209 comments and climbing. Here's what [09:00] I learned." Yeah, you what you learned [09:01] was you're doing a great job at [09:03] marketing, right? It's always the case, [09:05] right? It's always the case. Salacious [09:07] comments, um, you know, get all of this [09:09] stuff. And of course, because people are [09:11] people love to beat WordPress is a big [09:13] target. It's so easy to just stand on [09:16] the corner and spew a [09:20] negative [09:22] tone. That's not the best phrase right [09:24] there, but a negative comment or some [09:26] kind of like, you know, this or that and [09:29] for people to pile on to it, especially [09:30] when you bring in AI. [09:34] But he says the future, I don't know [09:35] exactly how this play out, nobody does, [09:36] but I know that clinging to the old way [09:38] because it's a familiar because it's [09:40] familiar is the fastest way to become [09:42] irrelevant. Sure. Sure. Yes. Fine. [09:46] Clinging to the old ways. But what does [09:49] clinging to the old ways mean? it. I [09:52] mean, it's just as confusing as, you [09:54] know, we're dropping WordPress for a [09:56] full AIdriven workflow. You could have a [09:58] full AIdriven workflow with WordPress. [10:02] So, whatever. It's just marketing speak. [10:04] But people often look at go, "Oh, [10:05] WordPress is 20 years old. People are [10:07] stuck in the past." Am I the first one [10:09] to criticize leadership and where the [10:12] software has gone? Yes. But I am also, [10:14] by the way, the one that also supports [10:16] WordPress to those people who are just [10:19] like, "WordPress sucks. [10:23] So clinging to the old ways [10:27] is one phrase, but here's the other [10:29] phrase. WordPress is open source. [10:33] There's a debate going on with Mullen WG [10:36] and DHH and Jason Freed of Base Camp for [10:40] their new product Fizzy or Frizzy. It's [10:43] a it's a Trello like solution. It's open [10:46] source, but you can't, you know, I'm [10:48] just paraphrasing here. It's under a [10:50] license where you you cannot host it and [10:53] compete with I guess Base Camp or you [10:55] know the original creators however that [10:57] license is worded and Matt saying well [10:58] this is not the true essence of open [11:00] source but it's a flavor of open source. [11:03] I will take an open-source thing and [11:07] appreciate the fact that it's open [11:09] source so that I can at least see what [11:12] the code is doing and understand the [11:14] code and maybe I can build on top of [11:16] that. Um, and maybe I can just [11:18] understand how my data is being managed [11:20] and, you know, how the system is [11:24] understanding, you know, the the the [11:26] content and the data in it. I mean, I [11:28] can appreciate that. It doesn't have to [11:30] be [11:32] this pure WordPress GPL approach, which [11:36] by the way is, you know, an interesting [11:38] statement after all that's happened. [11:44] WordPress is chosen because it's open [11:46] source and it's not for the the fact [11:49] that it's just, oh man, you're just you [11:51] just want this open source thing, man. [11:52] No, it's for exactly what I just said. [11:56] People want to know what's happening [11:58] with the code. They want to be able to [12:00] understand it. They want to be able to [12:02] build on top of it. And they want to [12:04] want the idea of this future iteration. [12:09] I understand things are slow. we're not [12:12] getting the features that we want. But [12:14] all of that is because of everything I [12:16] said before because it is open source [12:20] and it does take time because there's a [12:21] bunch of people doing this thing. [12:26] There's a safety net there depending on [12:30] where your what your business needs are, [12:32] what your values are. [12:36] And a in the face of AI, sure, you can [12:40] write code that's available. But only [12:42] you and the AI and the LLM at that time [12:45] wrote that code. [12:48] 20 years of WordPress, as messy as it [12:51] is, at least has a paper trail. And at [12:54] least we can see where the decision [12:56] makers are and see the conversations [12:59] that are happening and understand how we [13:01] got to XYZ point to a degree. [13:07] Which leads me to the next point is [13:10] continuity. [13:12] There's this a Owen says, "I'm just [13:15] drive. I'm never building with WordPress [13:17] again. I I can just go to AI. I can whip [13:19] up a site." Great. And every time you do [13:21] that, you're going to make a new [13:23] solution for the next customer. Customer [13:26] comes in, I'm go, hey, I'm going to do [13:27] the same thing. You can write all the [13:29] clawed code project files that you want [13:32] and all the instructions that you want. [13:34] And sure, yeah, it might get better and [13:36] it might code a site exactly how you [13:38] want it to code it the next time, but [13:41] it's still stuck within your agency. [13:46] Now, I'll eat my socks if you tell me in [13:49] the future we have project file [13:52] standards that come out, right? Where [13:55] there's like an open source movement of [13:56] of standards where 100% of the time the [14:01] code that is written is written to that [14:03] standard because that's what WordPress [14:05] is. When you install it on a 100 sites, [14:08] it is the same [14:11] to the decimal point to the tab space in [14:15] the file, it is the same. [14:18] And there's that continuity aspect that [14:21] amateurs just don't understand. Or if [14:23] you're J and you're just, you know, [14:24] trying to hype the AI train. [14:27] So people are picking this for that [14:29] continuity. And you can say that, oh, AI [14:32] can do it. I can train it. I can write [14:33] it the same way. It's only going to be [14:36] within your organization. [14:39] Clients [14:41] hopefully choose WordPress because [14:44] there's a tiny bit of an insurance [14:46] there, that continuity where they say, [14:49] "I'm going to hire ABC firm. They're [14:52] going to build my website." But I know [14:53] if ABC firm screws it up or I want to [14:57] leave uh I'm out of their contract, they [14:59] don't perform well, I can take my [15:02] WordPress site and bring it to XYZ firm [15:06] and they can build on top of it. Yes, [15:09] there's going to be some, you know, I [15:12] can't believe they built it this way. [15:15] That's not how we would have done it. [15:16] like every, you know, contractor and [15:19] landscaper and plumber and electrician [15:22] that comes to your house and criticizes [15:23] the last guy that was at your house, [15:25] they're going to say that too in [15:26] WordPress. I get it. But the core is [15:28] WordPress. And that's the assurance, [15:32] insurance, and continuity allinone. [15:37] So when you're just building stuff in [15:39] your company, [15:41] at least in the year the end of 2025, [15:45] you're only building it for within your [15:47] walls. [15:51] And how does how do you train a team? [15:55] Go back to sustainability of your [15:57] business. How do we go and train your [15:58] team to say, "All right, I'm the agency [16:01] owner and to improve profits and speed [16:05] and rapid deployment and to keep up with [16:07] the breakneck speed of the technology [16:09] space. We will now use claude code to [16:11] build all static sites moving forward. [16:14] How do you train the team to support [16:16] that?" Because the website for the [16:19] amateur, the amateur sees it and goes, I [16:22] need to build a website for this person [16:23] and give them a website and they can [16:25] ship it and they can do their thing and [16:28] move on. The website is for hopefully [16:32] the length of your support contract, but [16:34] also for the next person that comes in [16:37] and takes over the website, whether [16:39] that's the customers, employees, if [16:42] you're selling into a bigger business [16:43] and they're not just a mom and pop shop, [16:45] or your own your own team to come in and [16:49] support that site. If there's a support [16:52] issue with the site, the site is down, [16:55] there's some kind of security thing, [16:57] it's running slow, [16:59] how do you how do you build that team? [17:01] Oh, I'm just going to run agents against [17:03] everything. Okay, fine. That's what you [17:05] that's what you want to do. But good [17:08] luck telling that to the customer who's [17:10] knocking on the door going, "Hey, the [17:12] site's still down." And you're going, [17:14] "I'm just waiting for the next release [17:17] of ChatGpt and it'll just get better. [17:20] the amateur can look at this thing and [17:22] go, "WordPress is old. WordPress doesn't [17:25] have all the things. I can build this. [17:27] Look how fast I can build this with with [17:30] AI." And I'm a I'm trending to the more [17:34] positive side of at least coding with [17:36] AI. But it's certainly not replacing the [17:39] backlog of 20 years, thousands of people [17:43] that have built an open source tool [17:45] which allows [17:49] more movement, [17:52] uh, more collaboration, more longevity [17:56] than just like the best LLM that's being [17:58] shipped right now. [18:02] And by the way, [18:04] once again, I don't know what a full [18:06] AIdriven workflow means to Jay. Owen, [18:11] but the abilities API is supposed to [18:13] help them, [18:15] right? So, if you're just sitting there [18:16] going, I WordPress isn't doing anything [18:18] with AI. Well, they are, and they only [18:20] started 6 months ago. And don't forget [18:21] of the disaster we had at the end of [18:23] 2024 going into 2025. So yeah, like I [18:27] said in another episode, give WordPress [18:31] and yourself some grace because look how [18:33] far we've come basically in the back [18:36] half of 2025. [18:39] Now, I don't know if I fully agree if [18:41] WordPress should be, you know, going [18:43] into [18:45] like where the thoughts are with [18:46] abilities API and how much AI is going [18:48] to control that. You know, I got to see [18:50] how it all plays out. [18:53] But if you just look at the essence of [18:56] open source [18:59] commented code is obviously open source [19:01] and public. So yeah that helps with AI. [19:05] There's a lot of like community forums [19:07] that I'm sure AI can scrape has scraped [19:10] to help its understanding of how to [19:13] develop with WordPress. So those things [19:15] sound particularly good. I I don't know [19:17] if you've ever done this with AI. [19:20] I mean, everyone say, "Oh, Chad, have [19:22] you seen this nano banana? Look how [19:23] great great these graphics are. You can [19:25] make these photos." Okay. I I I mean, I [19:29] spend a lot of time in AI and yeah, I [19:31] can make some good-looking photos the [19:33] first time. [19:36] And you see this too with AI coding. [19:39] Your first oneshot app, oh man, it's [19:42] pretty awesome. But poof, it's like 20% [19:44] off. [19:44] That 20% is nearly [19:47] the hardest. Like that is the hardest [19:49] part. Like it can write 5,000 lines of [19:51] code in one shot and you're like, "Oh my [19:53] god, look how cool this is. But now I [19:55] just got to tweak this." And then as [19:56] soon as you start to do that, it starts [19:57] to devolve. [20:00] You know, if you don't, you know, if [20:02] you're trying to make these big changes, [20:03] same thing with like photos. I've seen [20:05] this happen where you start to [20:07] continuously prompt it and it just [20:08] starts getting worse. [20:10] So, like I think on the AI stuff again, [20:13] at least in December 2025, [20:16] the first shot is fine and then when you [20:19] start to iterate on it and it's [20:20] constantly like building off of its own, [20:23] I don't know, data set or whatever you [20:25] want to call it, it gets worse. I can't [20:27] see a future of [20:31] supporting [20:33] uh the same AI app or the same AI [20:36] solution and it getting better. [20:39] I mean these things aren't thinking [20:42] right everybody realizes that like AI [20:44] isn't thinking it's being trained like [20:47] we all see that keyword right [20:52] yes the models get trained better with [20:55] more information and they get more [20:57] efficient [21:00] and while the chat system feels like [21:03] you're chatting with somebody thinking [21:05] it's really just quickly [21:08] comparing [21:10] and disseminating what [21:13] answer you want based on the prompt that [21:16] you gave it and the instructions and so [21:17] forth. So until it's actually thinking [21:20] and learning, which I don't know when [21:22] that is. I thought it was supposed to be [21:24] like 3 years ago, [21:26] then a lot of this stuff is still at the [21:30] at the mercy I don't know if that's the [21:32] right word of the training data going [21:34] into it. [21:39] We don't live in a WordPress bubble. [21:43] Let me take a step back. We live in a [21:46] WordPress bubble be of those of us who [21:49] want WordPress to win. Yes, that is the [21:52] bubble [21:54] on the commercial side where you're [21:55] making your money. If you're living in a [21:58] WordPress bubble, you're doing yourself [22:00] a disservice. [22:02] If you're in the bubble to make [22:03] WordPress better, that's fine. That's [22:05] what the community is all about. [22:08] On the outside, certainly look at other [22:12] solutions. Do I think you replace AI or [22:15] you replace WordPress with a pure AI [22:17] approach? Absolutely not. If you're Jen [22:20] and you're trying to sell tickets to an [22:21] AI event, sure. It sounds good. [22:25] If you're trying to sell seats to your [22:28] membership course that teach you how to [22:29] build stuff with AI, yeah, sounds good. [22:32] And hey, I'm not even mad about that. [22:36] I'm just here to support WordPress. [22:38] Anyway, [22:40] it's the WP Minute. Oh, no. Actually, [22:41] this is the Matt Report. It's the Matt [22:42] Report. Thanks for listening. If you [22:44] want to follow the WordPress stuff that [22:45] I got, go to thewpmin.com.  ## Highlights - **WordPress Isn't One Thing** - WordPress never had a single lane and fits many roles from blogging to enterprise CMS. - That flexibility causes insiders to perceive a WordPress 'bubble' when they only hear WordPress-focused conversations. Transcript: Matt All right. I said I wasn't going to remark on this, but I think I'm going to because why not? So there's a LinkedIn post by this guy, Jay Owen. I won't link to it, but you can search for him. It starts out with his, of course, clickbait intro written for LinkedIn, probably assisted by AI considering he has a Join My AI conference banner on his profile. We're done with WordPress. Our agency is abandoning WordPress development this year for a full AI-driven workflow. I don't even know what that means. Probably written by AI. Then I took to Twitter to remark on this because this was posted by Jeff Chandler. And of course, friend of the show, Mark Szymanski, says it's nuanced, and I sort of agree with this mentality. Well, young Mark and others, here's my thoughts. WordPress has never been the catch-all tool for everything. And if you think we're living in this bubble where it has been promoted in that fashion, I would say, well, you're in the bubble of WordPress agencies and freelancers who are constantly Talking about it and wanting it to be a better tool for XYZ, whatever XYZ means to them. It's either a blogging platform, a true content management system for the enterprise, a professional's website builder tool. It's the unfortunate and fortunate thing of WordPress is it just doesn't have that one lane. And you can sit here and debate what your favorite page builder is and what WordPress should be doing from a page building perspective. But the beauty of WordPress is that you can crack it open. And at its essence, we're publishing words on the Internet. Okay. We're getting content out there. We're getting our message out there. And then WordPress has, of course, its own way of doing things with, of course, the Gutenberg project, the editor, the site editor, and how they want to build sites. But its essence is an open source tool to put stuff on the internet. And when I hear people say that, you know, we're trying to force feed WordPress into everything, I would have to say that maybe it seems that way from a particular perspective or a particular Vantage point. Once again, if you're hearing this stuff at WordCamps and in WordPress communities and in WordPress podcasts and in WordPress YouTube videos, well, you're watching a WordPress YouTube Video and listening to a WordPress podcast and going to a WordPress conference. So yes, it's going to seem like you're in the bubble, but you're literally on the home court of the piece of software. When I was an agency owner, the solution wasn't always WordPress. Granted, that was 10 years ago. I'm hoping that 10 years forward that people say WordPress isn't for everything. ([Time 0:00:00](https://share.snipd.com/snip/eede6f1e-ccc6-4b46-8184-f0d8d8ab3fdc)) - **Don't Shoehorn Projects Into WordPress** - If a project doesn't fit your WordPress competency, don't force it into WordPress. - Avoid harming your business or doing your client a disservice by shoehorning solutions. Transcript: Matt When I was an agency owner, the solution wasn't always WordPress. Granted, that was 10 years ago. I'm hoping that 10 years forward that people say WordPress isn't for everything. However, if you have a website, e-commerce platform, membership product you're trying to build, maybe WordPress is the solution. And then there's like the 10%, maybe even 1%, outer edge. Do you need some kind of intermediary app to develop, to write and curate and publish content to which it's then distributed out to other platforms like mobile apps and other headless Systems? Well, maybe WordPress is a solution for that. Maybe you need a donation site, a nonprofit site. Maybe WordPress is a solution for that. And when I see people say that we're in a bubble or WordPress is not the AI forward solution moving forward, well, a few things come to mind. Number one, the bubble thing, well, I think I just answered that. Like you're in a WordPress community. We're all talking about WordPress but the onus is up to the agency owner and the freelancer to say maybe WordPress isn't the right solution so it's not a particular bubble that we're Creating it's maybe a bubble that people are perceiving because when I was that agency owner and somebody came to me with a particular project and it didn't fit we didn't build it and Since the core competency of my agency was WordPress design and development and support we didn't recommend another tool I'm sure there are agencies out there, like my good friend, Good friends at Barrel Holdings, which has a ton of different like agencies in their portfolios. Well, they have WordPress solutions. They have Shopify solutions. They have Webflow solutions. So if you're going to an agency like that, that is multidisciplinary, then maybe another solution comes out. And I said this in a tweet. If you're an agency owner and you're trying to take on a project that you're unsure that WordPress can solve, and you're shoehorning that solution into WordPress the sake of doing it In WordPress because that's all you know, potentially you're harming your business. ([Time 0:02:49](https://share.snipd.com/snip/68de9091-46f1-4419-927d-e8788d7583c5)) - **Scale Tech Stack With Business Needs** - Prioritize building a sustainable business before expanding tech stacks. - Learn additional platforms like Shopify or Webflow only when you need new revenue streams. Transcript: Matt I'm going to remark on the AI stuff that this J guy mentioned a little bit, but I think what we're really missing the point on here is we must educate the freelancers. And hopefully by the time they go from freelancer to agency owner, even if it's a boutique agency, two, three people, 10 people. By that time, they've realized, I've leveled up my business. I understand what works for the business. Therefore, I can serve this group of customers. In other words, take care of yourself first. When the oxygen mask drops, put it on yourself first so you don't pass out before you try to get it to the person next to you. WordPress has never been. No one has ever said, oh, you're trying to build some kind of, you know, registry app that connects to government APIs and some kind of commercial ERP system and it has to have mobile readiness And interactivity on all. No one has ever said like, oh, you should use it. You could use WordPress, maybe. But no one has ever said, oh, certainly WordPress solves that. So we have to understand what the abilities are, no pun intended, of WordPress as the freelancer slash agency owner. Take care of your core competency first to build a healthy business. Understand which lane you can serve through WordPress. And if you want to become multidisciplinary, then you can learn another technology stack alongside that. First thing that comes to mind is a Shopify or a Webflow. There are agencies out there that once they scale the business of WordPress, they go, what's next? Okay, maybe we bring in Shopify. Maybe we bring in Webflow. Maybe we bring in WooCommerce, right? As like a whole other thing. Just because you know WordPress doesn't mean you know WooCommerce, you know, depending on who you are and how long you've been in the business. Get grounded in the business first, then understand at some point of scale, have I scaled to the point where I can no longer grow with this solution and now I must bring in other streams Of revenue. ([Time 0:05:43](https://share.snipd.com/snip/d2254266-108a-410f-89f4-5b93c5fa0f24)) - **Open Source Is Practical Not Just Principled** - Many choose WordPress because it's open source and transparent, not just for ideology. - Open source access gives visibility into code, data handling, and future extensibility. Transcript: Matt So clinging to the old ways is one phrase, but here's the other phrase. WordPress is open source. There's a debate going on with Mullenweg and DHH and Jason Fried of Basecamp for their new product Fizzy or Frizzy. It's a Trello-like solution. It's open source, but you can't, you know, I'm just paraphrasing here, it's under a license where you cannot host it and compete with, I guess, Basecamp or, you know, the original creators, However that license is worded. And Matt's saying, well, this is not the true essence of open source, but it's a flavor of open source. I will take an open source thing and appreciate the fact that it's open source so that I can at least see what the code is doing and understand the code and maybe I can build on top of that And maybe I can just understand how my data is being managed and you know how the system is understanding you know the the the content and the data in it. I mean, I can appreciate that. It doesn't have to be this pure WordPress GPL approach, which, by the way, is, you know, an interesting statement after all that's happened. WordPress is chosen because it's open source. And it's not for the fact that it's just, oh man, you just want this open source thing, man. No, it's for exactly what I just said. People want to know what's happening with the code. They want to be able to understand it. They want to be able to build on top of it. And they want the idea of this future iteration. I understand things are slow. We're not getting the features that we want. But all of that is because of everything I said before. Because it is open source. ([Time 0:10:23](https://share.snipd.com/snip/57d4242e-f35f-4ffb-aaa1-f033c00e5f7c)) - **Value Continuity When Choosing Platforms** - Choose WordPress for client continuity and portability when you need long-term support. - Ensure clients can move to another firm without losing their core site investment. Transcript: Matt There's this, Owen says, I'm just, I'm driving. I'm never building WordPress again. I can just go to AI. I can whip up a site. Great. And every time you do that, you're going to make a new solution for the next customer. Customer comes in. I'm going to go, hey, I'm going to do the same thing. You can write all the cloud code project files that you want and all the instructions that you want. And sure, yeah, it might get better. And it might code a site exactly how you want it to code it the next time. But it's still stuck within your agency. Now, I'll eat my socks if you tell me in the future we have project file standards that come out, right? Where there's like an open source movement of standards where 100% of the time the code that is written is written to that standard. Because that's what WordPress is. When you install it on 100 sites, it is the same. To the decimal point. To the tab space in the file. It is the same. And there's that continuity aspect that amateurs just don't understand. Or if you're Jay Owen, you're just, you know, trying to hype the AI train. So people are picking this for that continuity. And you can say that, oh, AI can do it. I can train it. I can write it the same way. It's only going to be within your organization. Clients, hopefully, choose WordPress because there's a tiny bit of an insurance there. That continuity where they say, I'm going to hire ABC firm. They're going to build my website, but I know if ABC firm screws it up or I want to leave, uh, I'm out of their contract. They don't perform well. I can take my WordPress site and bring it to XYZ firm and they can build on top of it. Yes, there's going to be some, you know, I can't believe they built it this way. That's not how we would have done it. Like every, you know, contractor and landscaper and plumber and electrician that comes to your house and criticizes the last guy that was at your house. They're going to say that too in WordPress. I get it. But the core is WordPress. ([Time 0:13:12](https://share.snipd.com/snip/201d452a-2795-4086-94d2-a80869bdd57a)) - **AI First Drafts Don't Solve The Hard Part** - AI-generated first drafts can be impressive but often need significant iteration and fixing. - Iteration can degrade quality if models keep building on imperfect outputs without guardrails. Transcript: Matt And how do you train a team? Go back to sustainability of your business. How do we go and train your team to say, all right, I'm the agency owner and to improve profits and speed and rapid deployment and to keep up with the breakneck speed of the technology space? We will now use Claudeco to build all static sites moving forward. How do you train the team to support that? Because the website for the amateur, the amateur sees it and goes, I need to build a website for this person and give them a website. And they can ship it and they can do their thing and move on. The website is for, hopefully, the length of your support contract, but also for the next person that comes in and takes over the website, whether that's the customer's employees, If you're selling into a bigger business and they're not just a mom and pop shop or your own, your own team to come in and support that site. If there's a support issue with the site, the site is down, There's some kind of security thing. It's running slow. How do you build that team? Oh, I'm just going to run agents against everything? Okay, fine. That's what you want to do. But good luck telling that to the customer who's knocking on the door going, hey, the site's still down. And you're going, I'm just waiting for the next release of ChatGPT, and it'll just get better. The amateur can look at this thing and go, WordPress is old. WordPress doesn't have all the things. I can build this. Look how fast I can build this with AI. And I'm trending to the more positive side of at least coding with AI, but it's certainly not replacing the backlog of 20 years, thousands of people that have built an open source tool, Which allows more movement, more collaboration, more longevity than just like the best LLM that's being shipped right now. And by the way, once again, I don't know what a full AI driven workflow means to Jay Owen. But the abilities API is supposed to help them. Right. So if you're just sitting there going, WordPress isn't doing anything with AI. Well, they are. And they only started six months ago. And don't forget of the disaster we had at the end of 2024 going into 2025. So, yeah, like I said in another episode, give WordPress and yourself some grace because look how far we've come basically in the back half of 2025. Now, I don't know if I fully agree if WordPress should be, you know, going into like where the thoughts are with Abilities API and how much ai is going to control that you know i got to see How it all plays out but if you just look at the essence of open source commented code is obviously open source and public so yeah that helps with ai there's a lot of like community forums That I'm sure AI can scrape, has scraped to help its understanding of how to develop with WordPress. So those things sound particularly good. I don't know if you've ever done this with AI. I mean, everyone's like, have you seen this nano banana? And then look how great these graphics, I can make these photos. Okay. I mean, I spend a lot of time in AI. And yeah, I can make some good looking photos the first time. And you see this too with AI coding. Your first one shot app. Oh man, it's pretty awesome. But poof, it's like 20% off. And that 20 is nearly the hardest like that is the hardest part like you can write 5,000 lines of code in one shot and you're like oh my god look how cool this is but now I just got to tweak this And then as soon as you start to do that it starts to devolve you know if you don't you know if you're trying to make these big changes same thing with like photos I've seen this happen where You start to continuously prompt it and just starts getting worse. So like, I think on the AI stuff again, at least in December, 2025, the first shot is fine. And then when you start to iterate on it and it's constantly like building off of its own, I don't know, data set or whatever you want to call it, it gets worse. I can't see a future of supporting the same AI app or the same AI solution and it getting better. ([Time 0:15:50](https://share.snipd.com/snip/2d981d66-9991-49cb-ae0e-f029d871eac7)) - **Be Realistic About WordPress And AI** - Give WordPress time and be realistic about its AI progress. - Use WordPress's Abilities API and community improvements rather than declaring it dead. Transcript: Matt But the abilities API is supposed to help them. Right. So if you're just sitting there going, WordPress isn't doing anything with AI. Well, they are. And they only started six months ago. And don't forget of the disaster we had at the end of 2024 going into 2025. So, yeah, like I said in another episode, give WordPress and yourself some grace because look how far we've come basically in the back half of 2025. ([Time 0:18:11](https://share.snipd.com/snip/7eb47067-fefc-418c-b2b7-a27177be87a0)) - **There Is A WordPress Bubble — Locally** - The 'WordPress bubble' exists for people who want WordPress to win, not as a universal reality. - Commercially, agencies must evaluate other solutions; WordPress isn't always the right choice. Transcript: Matt We don't live in a WordPress bubble. Let me take a step back. We live in a WordPress bubble. Of those of us who want WordPress to win, yes, that is the bubble. On the commercial side, where you're making your money, if you're living in a WordPress bubble, you're doing yourself a disservice. If you're in the bubble to make WordPress better, that's fine. That's what the community is all about. On the outside, certainly look at other solutions. Do I think you replace AI or you replace WordPress with a pure AI approach? Absolutely not. If you're J. Owen and you're trying to sell tickets to an AI event, sure, It sounds good. If you're trying to sell seats to your membership course to teach you how to build stuff with AI, yeah, sounds good. And hey, I'm not even mad about that. I'm just here to support WordPress. ([Time 0:21:38](https://share.snipd.com/snip/e6565217-5746-41ed-85f3-1242046c99b9))