Read These Books To Start 2026 Right Cal Newport

Read These Books To Start 2026 Right | Cal Newport 🔗 **Source:** [Read These Books To Start 2026 Right | Cal Newport](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSNT4mtYR7o) > [!note]+ Document Notes > tags: [reading_recommendations, deep_life, lifestyle_design, personal_development] > author: Cal Newport > source: YouTube > reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSNT4mtYR7o > date created: 2024-12-19 00:00 > > # 🏷️ Title: Read These Books To Start 2026 Right >  ## 🧰 Action Inbox - [H1] Create lifestyle-centric planning experiment — baseline needs assessment #lifestyle_design - [H2] Develop moral intelligence through organized thinking and speaking — practice articulating values #moral_development - [H3] Implement phone-in-kitchen rule for family — establish tech boundaries #digital_minimalism ## 🧭 Table of Contents - [📝 Summary](#-summary) - [📖 Main Content](#-main-content) - [🗒️ Notes](#️-notes) - [📚 References](#-references) - [🗣️ Paraphrase](#️-paraphrase) - [📰 Newsletter](#-newsletter) - [✅ Action Items](#-action-items) - [🧪 Hypotheses](#-hypotheses) - [📊 Methodology](#-methodology) - [❓ Questions](#-questions) - [🔮 Future Research](#-future-research) - [💡 Implications](#-implications) - [🧠 Learning Styles Assessment](#-learning-styles-assessment) - [📊 Accessibility Assessment](#-accessibility-assessment) - [🌍 DEIB Assessment](#-deib-assessment) - [✅ Logical Validity](#-logical-validity) - [🛡️ DARVO Analysis](#-darvo-analysis) - [🎯 Conclusion](#-conclusion) ### 🔗 References - [Walden by Henry David Thoreau](https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/205) - [Lincoln's Virtues by William Lee Miller](https://www.amazon.com/Lincolns-Virtues-Ethical-Biography/dp/0375413781) - [The Case for God by Karen Armstrong](https://www.karenarmstrong.co.uk/books/the-case-for-god/) - [You Are Not a Gadget by Jaron Lanier](https://www.jaronlanier.com/gadgetwebresources.html) - [The Shallows by Nicholas Carr](https://www.nicholascarr.com/?page_id=16) - [Falling Upward by Richard Rohr](https://cac.org/falling-upward/) ## 📝 Summary - Cal Newport recommends six influential books (not self-help) that can provide deep wisdom for starting 2025 right - Books span from Thoreau's 1854 "Walden" to Richard Rohr's 2011 "Falling Upward" - Why it matters: These works offer foundational insights into lifestyle design, moral development, technology's human impact, and navigating life's challenges - Key audience: People seeking depth and meaning beyond typical self-help advice - Bottom line: Read books that weren't intended as self-help but contain transformative wisdom for living deeply ## 📖 Main Content Newport presents six books chosen not as definitive "best" recommendations but as personally meaningful works that offer profound guidance for deeper living. The selection spans 157 years and covers themes from deliberate living and moral development to technology's impact on humanity and navigating life's inevitable hardships. Each book approaches human flourishing from different angles - philosophical, historical, theological, technological, and psychological - providing a comprehensive foundation for thoughtful living in the modern age. ## 🗒️ Notes #### ⏱️ [00:00](https://youtu.be/dSNT4mtYR7o?t=0) — [H1] Introduction: Holiday Episode Book Recommendations - Key idea: Six non-self-help books with deep wisdom for starting 2025 right - Evidence: "Books that were not intended for you to help you improve your life, but nonetheless can help you make massive positive changes" #### ⏱️ [02:34](https://youtu.be/dSNT4mtYR7o?t=154) — [H2] Thoreau's Walden: Early Lifestyle Design - Key idea: Walden is one of the first true lifestyle-centric planning guides - Evidence: "Let me try to fix an understanding of what I want my life to be like and then work backwards from that systematically" #### ⏱️ [06:42](https://youtu.be/dSNT4mtYR7o?t=402) — [H3] Thoreau's Experiment: Understanding Baseline Needs - Key idea: Thoreau calculated exact survival costs to understand what's truly necessary versus optional - Evidence: "What is the base amount of money I need to spend to survive... everything else I spend money on is optional" #### ⏱️ [08:15](https://youtu.be/dSNT4mtYR7o?t=495) — [H2] Lincoln's Virtues: Developing Moral Intelligence - Key idea: Moral intelligence requires deliberate development through reading, thinking, and articulation - Evidence: "Lincoln had to develop it... through reading and experience and encounter and above all thinking" #### ⏱️ [11:23](https://youtu.be/dSNT4mtYR7o?t=683) — [H3] The Importance of Organized Thinking - Key idea: Lincoln's moral breakthroughs came from organizing thoughts to give speeches - Evidence: "The amount that Lincoln learned by trying to organize his talks... is really where so many leaps in his moral imagination actually happen" #### ⏱️ [13:45](https://youtu.be/dSNT4mtYR7o?t=825) — [H2] Karen Armstrong's Case for God: Pre-Enlightenment Religious Understanding - Key idea: Modern minds misunderstand religion due to post-Enlightenment thinking frameworks - Evidence: "All of the ancient religions emerged before any of those ideas were around. So they don't work with the idiom of modernity" #### ⏱️ [18:30](https://youtu.be/dSNT4mtYR7o?t=1110) — [H3] Religion as Approximation and Action - Key idea: Ancient religions saw God as ineffable, requiring approximation through ritual and action rather than empirical belief - Evidence: "Everything we do... is an approximation. We do these rituals... as a way of trying to approximate a truth that we'll never actually get our arms around" #### ⏱️ [22:17](https://youtu.be/dSNT4mtYR7o?t=1337) — [H2] Jaron Lanier's You Are Not a Gadget: Humanistic Technology Critique - Key idea: Technology should serve human flourishing, not squash it without consideration - Evidence: "We start first by prioritizing human flourishing in the human experience. Technology should serve that" #### ⏱️ [25:45](https://youtu.be/dSNT4mtYR7o?t=1545) — [H3] Authentic vs. Corporate Online Communities - Key idea: Small, idiosyncratic online communities create more magic than massive social platforms - Evidence: "The oud forum does the opposite [of Facebook]... You will see this strain through a lot of my writing" #### ⏱️ [28:30](https://youtu.be/dSNT4mtYR7o?t=1710) — [H2] Nicholas Carr's The Shallows: Neurological Impact of Technology - Key idea: Internet usage can permanently rewire brains in ways that diminish thinking capacity - Evidence: "These new technologies... really could rewire your brain in a way that's permanent" #### ⏱️ [31:22](https://youtu.be/dSNT4mtYR7o?t=1882) — [H2] Richard Rohr's Falling Upward: Life's Two Phases - Key idea: Life has two phases - initial ascent followed by hardship that leads to deeper wisdom - Evidence: "There's two phases to life... when hardship happens... that's when the interesting stuff begins" #### ⏱️ [34:15](https://youtu.be/dSNT4mtYR7o?t=2055) — [H3] Modern Lack of Hardship Navigation Tools - Key idea: Post-modern digital culture lacks frameworks for navigating hardship constructively - Evidence: "We don't have the tools for but how do you navigate that and climb? How do you... find beauty in life through things not going the way you want?" #### ⏱️ [37:45](https://youtu.be/dSNT4mtYR7o?t=2265) — [H1] Technology and Parenting: Smartphone Rules - Key idea: Phones should live in kitchen, used as tools not companions, even for teenagers - Evidence: "The phone lives in the kitchen. When you're home, it's plugged in in the kitchen... It is a tool, not a companion" #### ⏱️ [42:30](https://youtu.be/dSNT4mtYR7o?t=2550) — [H2] Creative Work Energy Management - Key idea: Accept slower progress on creative projects when day job drains same cognitive resources - Evidence: "Just be okay with that... I'm just kind of working on one thing... I'm expanding out to like what did I do this year" ## 📚 References - [Walden - Project Gutenberg](https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/205) - [Lincoln's Virtues on Amazon](https://www.amazon.com/Lincolns-Virtues-Ethical-Biography/dp/0375413781) - [Karen Armstrong Official Site](https://www.karenarmstrong.co.uk/) - [Jaron Lanier's Website](https://www.jaronlanier.com/) - [Nicholas Carr's Website](https://www.nicholascarr.com/) - [Center for Action and Contemplation](https://cac.org/) ## 🗣️ Paraphrase - Thoreau's Walden teaches lifestyle-centric planning by first understanding baseline survival needs, then carefully adding meaningful elements without falling into consumption traps - Lincoln's moral development shows that ethical intelligence requires deliberate cultivation through reading, thinking, and articulating ideas in organized ways - Armstrong's religious scholarship reveals how modern minds misunderstand spirituality by applying post-Enlightenment frameworks to pre-modern wisdom traditions - Lanier's technology critique prioritizes human flourishing over technological convenience, advocating for tools that serve rather than diminish our humanity - Carr's neurological research demonstrates that digital technology can permanently rewire brains in ways that reduce our capacity for deep thinking - Rohr's life philosophy maps two phases: initial ascent followed by hardship that, when navigated well, leads to deeper wisdom and connection ## 📰 Newsletter **Six Books to Deepen Your 2025 (None Are Self-Help)** As we head into the new year, many of us reach for self-help books promising quick fixes. But Cal Newport suggests something different: six books that weren't written to improve your life but contain profound wisdom for living more deeply. **The Lineup:** - **Thoreau's Walden** - The original lifestyle design manual - **Lincoln's Virtues** - How to develop moral intelligence through thinking - **The Case for God** - Understanding transcendent values in modern times - **You Are Not a Gadget** - Why humans should come before technology - **The Shallows** - How digital tools rewire our brains - **Falling Upward** - Navigating life's inevitable hardships **Key Insight:** These works offer something rare in our quick-fix culture: frameworks for thinking deeply about what makes life meaningful and how to deliberately craft the life you want. **Community Connection:** Have you found unexpected wisdom in non-self-help books? What works have shaped your thinking about technology, purpose, or navigating challenges? Resources: [Deep Work](https://calnewport.com/books/deep-work/), [Digital Minimalism](https://calnewport.com/books/digital-minimalism/), [A World Without Email](https://calnewport.com/books/a-world-without-email/) ## ✅ Action Items #### DevRel - Developer advocacy: Create reading programs connecting technical communities with humanistic texts - Education: Develop workshops on moral reasoning in technology design decisions - Developer experience: Research cognitive impacts of development tools and interfaces - Community management: Foster deeper, topic-focused communities over broad engagement #### WordPress - Community: Organize reading groups combining technical and philosophical development - Training: Integrate ethical technology considerations into curriculum design - Documentation: Write with awareness of cognitive load and human-centered design - Design: Prioritize interfaces that support rather than fragment human attention #### Community - Maintainers: Model thoughtful technology use and boundaries in project leadership - Contributors: Create spaces for reflection on technology's role in human flourishing - Sponsors: Support projects that prioritize human wellbeing alongside technical innovation #### FAIR - Policies: Develop guidelines balancing technological capability with human cognitive health - Governance artifacts: Include considerations of long-term human impacts in decision frameworks ## 🧪 Hypotheses - Reading non-self-help books provides more lasting wisdom than traditional self-improvement literature - Lifestyle-centric planning (working backwards from desired life) produces better outcomes than forward career planning - Moral intelligence can be systematically developed through structured thinking and articulation practice - Small, focused online communities create more meaningful connections than large social platforms ### 📊 Methodology - Track life satisfaction outcomes between readers of self-help vs. non-self-help wisdom literature - Compare decision-making quality between lifestyle-centric and career-centric planning approaches - Measure moral reasoning development through structured thinking exercises and speech practice - Analyze community engagement depth in small forums vs. large social platforms ### ❓ Questions - How can modern readers develop pre-Enlightenment approaches to transcendent values while maintaining critical thinking? - What specific practices best translate Thoreau's experimental approach to contemporary lifestyle design? - How do we balance technological efficiency with preserving human cognitive capabilities? ### 🔮 Future Research - Longitudinal studies on cognitive changes from sustained deep reading vs. digital consumption - Cross-cultural analysis of hardship navigation frameworks in different philosophical traditions - Investigation of optimal community sizes and structures for meaningful online connection ### 💡 Implications - Practice: Integrate philosophical reading into professional development routines - Policy: Consider cognitive health impacts in technology design and deployment decisions - Security: Recognize digital attention as a resource requiring protection and boundaries - Education: Balance technological literacy with humanistic wisdom in curriculum design - Funding: Support projects that prioritize long-term human flourishing over short-term engagement metrics ### 🧠 Learning Styles Assessment Reading level estimate: 12th grade (sophisticated vocabulary, complex philosophical concepts) #### 👀 Visual learners - Present: Book covers shown, physical copies displayed, organized chronological presentation - Improve: Timeline visualization, concept maps connecting book themes, author photos and historical context #### 🔊 Aural learners - Present: Podcast format with detailed verbal explanations and personal anecdotes - Improve: Audio chapter summaries, author interviews, discussion group recordings #### 🗣️ Verbal learners - Present: Rich definitions, historical context, analogies connecting concepts to modern life - Improve: Book club discussion guides, quote collections, comparative analysis frameworks #### 🧩 Kinesthetic learners - Present: Practical experiments suggested (Thoreau's cost calculations, Lincoln's speech practice) - Improve: Reading journals, reflection exercises, hands-on lifestyle design workshops #### 🧠 Logical learners - Present: Chronological organization, cause-effect relationships, systematic analysis - Improve: Decision trees for book selection, progress tracking systems, comparative analysis charts #### 🧑‍🤝‍🧑 Social learners - Present: Phone call interactions, community discussion elements, shared reading suggestions - Improve: Online book clubs, discussion forums, reading partnership programs #### 🧘‍♀️ Solitary learners - Present: Individual reading recommendations, personal reflection prompts, self-directed exploration - Improve: Private journaling guides, self-assessment tools, quiet reading space recommendations ### 📊 Accessibility Assessment #### Screen reader semantics - Present: Clear heading structure, descriptive content organization - Improve: Alt text for book covers, chapter summaries with clear navigation landmarks #### Keyboard navigation - Present: Standard video player controls, timestamp links - Improve: Skip-to-content links, keyboard shortcuts for different sections #### Contrast and readability - Present: Standard video format with clear audio - Improve: High-contrast transcript options, adjustable text sizing for companion materials #### Media and captions - Present: Full transcript provided, audio content accessible - Improve: Professional captions with speaker identification, downloadable text versions ### 🌍 DEIB Assessment #### Cultural breadth --- ## Full Transcript [00:04] Hey, this is the last time we're [00:06] recording before Christmas, which means [00:08] it's everyone's favorite time of the [00:09] year in the Deep Questions podcast, our [00:12] holiday episode. This is when we let [00:14] you, the listeners and viewers, take [00:17] over the show. So, we're going to do a [00:20] deep dive on the question that I [00:23] probably am asked the most by you, which [00:25] is, what should I read? We're going to [00:28] take a little bit of a twist here. What [00:29] I'm going to do is talk about six books [00:31] I pulled from my shelves that has what I [00:34] think is deep wisdom for making your new [00:37] year deeper. But none of them are [00:40] self-help or advice books. So these are [00:43] books that were not intended for you to [00:45] help you improve your life, but [00:46] nonetheless can help you make massive uh [00:50] positive changes in your life as we head [00:52] to the new year. Then we're going to [00:53] open up the phone lines and we have your [00:55] calls one after another. I haven't heard [00:57] any of these in advance. I don't know if [00:59] you're upset or angry or mad or have [01:01] deep questions or small questions. We're [01:03] going to get into it all because it is [01:04] the holiday episode and you are in [01:07] charge. All right, so I don't want to [01:08] waste any more time. As always, I'm Kell [01:10] Newport and this is deep questions. [01:14] Today's episode, what should I read to [01:17] start 2025 off right? And we'll get into [01:21] all of that right after the music. [01:24] Here's [01:31] our plan for this deep dive. I I [01:33] literally just went through my [01:34] bookshelves. I have to pluralize that [01:36] because I have many shelves and many [01:37] libraries, but I went to various [01:39] locations in which I have many [01:40] bookshelves. And I pulled six books off [01:42] the shelf that I all think have been uh [01:44] played important role in my own [01:46] development and my own quest for deep [01:48] life. And I want to briefly talk about [01:49] each. I didn't know how to organize [01:51] these, so I decided I would just do them [01:53] uh in publication order from the oldest [01:55] to the newest. I want to emphasize I [01:58] don't like superlatives. I'm not good at [02:00] saying like here are the five best or [02:02] here is the number one best. So, I'm not [02:03] claiming these are the six best books to [02:06] read to start off 2025 deeper. They're [02:08] just six books I think will help you do [02:09] that. They caught my attention. They're [02:11] meaningful for me. All right, I'm going [02:14] to start with a book I talk about often [02:16] on the show. I'll hold each of these up [02:18] to the screen since they're my books, my [02:19] copies, um, as we talk about them. I [02:21] talk about this book often on the show. [02:23] I'll hold it up now. We're talking about [02:25] Thorough's Walden [02:28] or Life in the Woods as the subtitle. I [02:31] have a lot of different copies of it. [02:32] This is my um, Do Thrift Edition. I also [02:35] have an older version, an early 20th [02:36] century version that I keep on my desk [02:38] um, at home. I once looked into [02:40] actually, Jesse, first editions, first [02:42] printings. Oh god, they're expensive. [02:44] >> How expensive. uh many tens of thousands [02:48] of dollars. [02:48] >> Really? [02:48] >> Yeah. So, you know, we need we need a [02:51] few more sponsors to make that possible. [02:52] But Walden is an important book. All [02:54] right. So, what's the deal with Walden? [02:55] What should you get out of it if you're [02:56] going to read this? It's often [02:58] misunderstood. I think people will say, [03:00] "Oh, Walden was one of the first great [03:03] nature writing books." Now, it's true. [03:06] It has beautiful nature writing in it in [03:09] a way that there wasn't a ton of before [03:10] this book came out, but that wasn't [03:12] really the point of it. Other people [03:13] say, "No, no, it's it's an argument for [03:15] why you should specifically [03:18] leave civilization and go live in the [03:20] woods." And then those people other [03:22] people come in like, "Aha, I got you [03:24] because I heard somewhere that his mom [03:26] did his laundry, so he wasn't really [03:29] living in the woods." And that becomes a [03:30] whole debate. Not really what the book [03:31] is about either. It is instead, in my [03:34] opinion, one of the first books to [03:37] tackle the idea of lifestyle ccentric [03:39] planning. this idea of let me try to fix [03:43] an understanding of what I want my life [03:45] to be like and then work backwards from [03:47] that systematically to figure out how I [03:48] get there. We talk about that a lot on [03:50] this show. Even today that is a bit of [03:53] an unusual notion. We tend to have ideas [03:55] like why don't you follow your passion [03:56] or make one radical change to improve [03:58] your life. But back when the was writing [04:00] man that was a radical idea. You didn't [04:02] engineer your life in any way back then. [04:04] You had your place. I'm at you know this [04:07] soio economic status in this part of the [04:09] world. [04:10] you know, this gender, this race, this [04:12] is what I do. Not going to question it. [04:15] Thorough wasn't having it. There was [04:17] enough tumult and opportunity and [04:19] flexibility and unsettling of cultural [04:22] convention going on in the sort of [04:23] postcolonial era America that people [04:26] began to ask, well, wait a second. If we [04:29] can invent our own lives, what lives [04:30] should we invent? This is what thorough [04:33] was doing in Walden when he went to sort [04:35] of live in the the woods by Walden Pond [04:39] is he was running experiments. [04:42] So he was having this idea of like okay [04:44] I want to figure out [04:46] what is the base amount of money I need [04:48] to spend to survive like that to have [04:51] shelter and to have you know enough food [04:54] that I'm not hungry. And he goes through [04:56] in the first part of this and we can [04:57] find it in the book. The first chapter [04:59] in here, you know, uh is called economy. [05:02] There's a lot of these tables in in here [05:04] where he goes in with like a lot of [05:05] detail and has real detailed accounting [05:07] of exactly how much everything cost for [05:09] him to build that cabin and to plant the [05:11] food he planted, etc. Because his [05:13] experiment here was what is the actual [05:16] dollar amount it takes so that I'm no [05:18] longer struggling. I have shelter and [05:20] food. And then he said once I have that [05:22] number, that's why he kept all those [05:23] numbers careful. Technically speaking, [05:27] everything else I spend money on is [05:29] optional. It's for things I choose to [05:30] spend money on. [05:32] So, what's actually important and what's [05:34] not? How can I get the things in my life [05:36] that are important without having to pay [05:39] the price that I see other people here [05:41] in conquered and where he lived are [05:43] paying to to get more money? He was [05:45] trying to figure out once I know this is [05:46] all I need, how do I get the other [05:49] things in my life that are important [05:50] without falling in the traps like debt [05:52] or falling in the traps where you were [05:54] conspicuously consuming things. He's [05:57] talking about Venetian blinds and copper [05:58] pots that required you to work all the [06:00] time to pay for and then what was the [06:02] point? So it was like these lifestyle [06:04] design experiments and like what is [06:06] actually needed. That's why he says, "I [06:08] went out there to confront what it means [06:09] to live deliberately." And then saying, [06:10] "Okay, if if that's what I need, it [06:14] doesn't cost me much to survive." [06:16] Then how can I very carefully add back [06:18] in other things in my life so I don't [06:20] end up with like three mortgages on a [06:21] giant farm that I have to work 40 hours [06:23] a day, uh, you know, or 60 hours a day [06:26] because I need all the that much farm [06:28] produce to try to afford like my nice [06:30] carriage or whatever. So his idea was [06:32] not, oh, we should all go live really [06:34] simply in the woods. That was just to [06:35] get his baseline. what's my baseline I [06:37] can live off of and then he could start [06:38] experimenting with what should come on [06:40] top of there and a lot of the book is [06:41] him riffing on these ideas of what's [06:43] important in life and what's not and how [06:44] do you figure out you know how can you [06:46] get those in your life without falling [06:47] into the traps of other sort of things [06:48] how have we gone astray so it's a [06:49] lifestylecentric planning guide the very [06:51] first one of the very first I think sort [06:53] of true deep self-help type thinkers was [06:55] Walden and that's why this book is [06:56] important you can run similar [06:58] experiments in your own life what really [07:01] matters and then how do I get the stuff [07:03] on top of that now how do I go forward [07:05] once I have a baseline and survival. [07:07] Adding good stuff without having to at [07:09] the same time fall into the traps of [07:10] bad. So important book. [07:13] Next one I picked off the shelf. I don't [07:15] even have the cover for this anymore. [07:17] You can see I have bookmarks in. I've [07:18] used it and cited it so many times. This [07:20] is William Lee Miller's book Lincoln's [07:23] Virtues. Um William Lee Miller is an [07:26] academic Lincoln historian. He writes in [07:29] a kind of an older kind of cool southern [07:33] style, but this book is bestly best [07:35] described as a moral biography [07:38] of Abraham Lincoln. So what he's [07:40] actually writing about in this book is [07:42] how the various moral precepts upon [07:45] which Abraham Lincoln increasingly lived [07:48] his life, was known for, how did he [07:50] develop those? What did he encounter? [07:52] What did he read? Who did he encounter? [07:53] What experiences did he had? I think [07:55] it's a very clever idea for a biography [07:57] and it's one of the more interesting of [07:59] the many many Lincoln biographies I've [08:00] read, one of the more interesting ones. [08:02] What I got out of that book and what you [08:04] might get out of it too [08:06] is what goes into actually developing [08:09] moral intelligence. Because what Miller [08:11] points out is it's not just you're born [08:14] moral, you're not or we all have the [08:16] same moral intuition fully formed and [08:20] it's just a matter of whether you listen [08:21] to it or not. Lincoln had to develop it. [08:24] He had those same intimations of what's [08:26] right and wrong that a lot of people are [08:27] born with. And he had to work at it [08:30] through reading and experience and [08:32] encounter and above all thinking, trying [08:34] to organize his thoughts, give speeches, [08:37] read some more, organize those thoughts, [08:39] give more speeches. He did work over a [08:41] lifetime to heighten those moral [08:43] intuitions into actual [08:45] moral intelligence. And so by the time [08:47] you have him heavily involved in in the [08:49] Civil War and his fight against slavery [08:51] and the try to keep the Union together, [08:53] by the time you get before that, him and [08:55] the Lincoln Douglas debates, you have [08:57] someone with an incredibly powerful [09:01] moral imagination that he was very [09:03] confident in. And that can power real [09:06] changes in the world. So the lesson [09:08] you'll get out of reading this book is [09:10] that you have to develop your moral [09:12] intuitions into an actual moral [09:14] intelligence if you really want to leave [09:16] a positive impact on the world. That [09:19] takes work, but it's meaningful work and [09:21] it's work that needs to be done. And [09:23] it's not just exposing yourself to [09:25] things. It involves a lot of thinking. [09:26] That's really a thing that goes through [09:28] that book more than anything else. the [09:29] the the amount that Lincoln learned by [09:32] trying to organize his talks and give [09:33] talk organize his thoughts to give talks [09:35] is really where so many leaps in his [09:36] moral imagination actually happen. This [09:39] is something that is completely at under [09:41] threat right now in our current world as [09:44] we offload or outsource more and more of [09:47] our thinking to digital tools. [09:49] We don't want to process complicated [09:51] information anymore from the for [09:53] entertainment or for learning. So, we [09:55] let uh social media apps or chat bots do [09:59] that for us. We don't want to produce [10:00] our thoughts in an organized way [10:01] anymore. That feels hard. So, we have [10:03] chat bots write for us or summarize [10:05] things for us. We're running away from [10:07] actually using our brain. Lincoln ran [10:08] towards using his brain and it made him [10:10] a moral giant of the likes that's at the [10:12] top of our, you know, pantheon of [10:15] American moral giants in the whole [10:16] history of this country. There's an [10:18] argument for using your brain, not [10:20] trying to outsource difficult thinking [10:22] and to aim that work at becoming uh more [10:26] moral, taking intuitions and sharpening [10:28] them into things you can understand and [10:29] take and argue and figure out actions [10:31] based on. So great ideas caption this [10:34] book very relevant to our current time. [10:36] Also, he's a very entertaining writer. [10:39] All right, book number three. We're [10:41] making big leaps in time here. [10:44] The Case for God [10:47] by Karen Armstrong. [10:50] This is another book I've read many [10:52] times. I'm looking through it now. Um, [10:54] and it's really marked up. I really [10:56] think it's an underappreciated work in [10:59] thinking of I guess like theological [11:01] apologia and moral imagination, all [11:03] these type of topics. Also, just like as [11:05] a historical work, Karen Armstrong is a [11:06] great religion uh religious I'm not [11:09] going to say religious historian, [11:10] religion historian. She's actually not [11:12] religious in a traditional sense [11:14] herself. She was a lapsed nun who now [11:16] has no participation in any organized [11:19] religions, but is a fantastic historian. [11:21] Here's what this book is about. The [11:23] central argument of this book, it's the [11:25] history of religion from, you know, the [11:26] Paleolithic to today. It starts with [11:29] what it must have the experience of [11:31] being in like the caves of Lascow with [11:36] the flickering torch light making the [11:38] animal drawings on the walls appear as [11:40] if they're moving like the the the sort [11:42] of this original sort of ritualistic [11:44] connection to the transcendent all the [11:46] way to modern religions. And her big [11:49] argument, and I'm gonna tell you why [11:51] this is important in a second, but her [11:52] big argument is that the enlightenment [11:56] messed up our understanding of religion. [11:58] And the average person today, [12:01] because we have enlightenment shaped [12:03] minds, doesn't know how to think about [12:05] religion properly. [12:08] So post enlightenment we have all these [12:10] ideas like the empirical evaluation of [12:13] truth [12:15] history as a thing where I'm trying to [12:16] like really clearly capture things that [12:19] specifically happen [12:21] information being delivered uh in a sort [12:24] of sequential actionoriented way. Let me [12:26] explain to you the steps of building a [12:29] telescope to like observe the stars. A [12:32] lot of even the notion of like truth as [12:34] like uh empirical verifiable coming out [12:36] of the scientific method. This has been [12:38] looked at and this is true and this [12:39] thing is not because we have a [12:40] falsifiable example but here we do not. [12:42] All of these ideas that are just [12:44] ingrained in our understanding of the [12:46] world into what you know like a [12:47] philosopher um would call like the [12:49] epistem in which we're we exist are [12:52] post-enlightenment ideas. All of the [12:54] ancient religions emerged before any of [12:56] those ideas were around. So they don't [12:59] work [13:00] with the idiom of modernity. That's not [13:03] what they were invented from. And when [13:04] we think about religion through the [13:06] idiom of modernity, this is where we [13:09] have a big disconnect. So through these [13:12] sort of post-enlightment idioms, we look [13:13] at and say, "Huh, I think about a [13:15] religion um as a collection of empirical [13:20] empirically verifiable facts that I'm [13:22] asenting to that this happened, that [13:25] happened, this person is this, that [13:26] person is that." But I don't I don't [13:28] where's the evidence? No one I don't [13:29] have like the empirical evidence like a [13:30] scientific thing. I don't want to ascent [13:32] to that. That's one way, you know, we [13:34] start to think about it today. Is this [13:36] true or not is the way that we're [13:37] thinking about religion today. That [13:38] would have been nonsense. Armstrong [13:40] argues that someone at, you know, the [13:42] turn of the first millennium. What do [13:43] you mean is this true or not? What are [13:45] you talking about? That's not the way [13:46] that we engage with like the world and [13:48] their notions of of uh making sense of [13:51] the world back then. So, she's really [13:53] arguing for you need a a [13:54] pre-enlightenment mind to approach [13:57] religion. And when you do, she says a [13:59] couple things come up. Read all the [14:01] ancient books from the main wisdom [14:02] traditions, right? They all see God as [14:05] ineffable, meaning too complicated for [14:08] your puny human minds to understand. [14:09] You're never really going to be able to [14:11] get your mind around and explain like [14:12] what God is or or or how that concept [14:15] even functions. So, everything we do, [14:16] the ancients knew this, everything we do [14:18] is an approximation. [14:21] We do these rituals. We we tell these [14:24] stories. We organize our world through [14:26] these parables as a way of of trying to [14:29] like approximate a truth that we'll [14:31] never actually get our arms around. [14:34] That through action you get these [14:36] intimations of what is actually true [14:38] that you'll never actually be able to [14:39] articulate and write down in some sort [14:41] of like clear post enlightenment sort of [14:42] empirical scientific way. That's just [14:43] not the way they thought. That's not the [14:45] way religion works. [14:47] Belief did not mean the way we would [14:49] believe today that yes, the car that [14:51] drove by 10 minutes ago was red or not. [14:53] Belief meant commitment to the actual [14:56] typically physical often sort of [14:58] physical to some degree intellectual [15:00] requirements of the religion. Through [15:02] that action, I will increasingly find [15:04] that the the intimations and moral [15:06] intuitions and transcendent intuitions I [15:08] have begin to fall into configuration [15:09] that makes more sense. It is through the [15:11] action. It is through the the the the [15:15] prayers. It's through the following of [15:17] the hokic requirements. It's through the [15:19] grappling with the text that over time I [15:22] feel like this this complicated world [15:25] and the way that I have these intuitions [15:26] about it begins to to fit into something [15:28] that kind of makes sense. That's belief. [15:31] That's the way they thought about it. [15:33] The modern world like well what what [15:34] facts am I asenting to? So anyway, she's [15:38] an argument for going back to a [15:39] premodern way of thinking of religion [15:40] opens up the possibilities of [15:42] introducing transcendent values into [15:44] your life, which itself then can become [15:46] like a a fantastic foundation and buffer [15:48] against which you can you can resist all [15:52] of the sort of nihilistic winds of [15:54] postmort uh postmodern digital and our [15:57] current type of culture, right? So it's [15:58] really thoughtprovoking and it will [16:00] change the way you think about the [16:02] transcendent um transcendent values. I [16:05] mean this I read this probably in the [16:08] 2000s [16:09] which was like a really for my [16:11] generation Jesse's generation like a [16:13] really interesting period religion had [16:15] become like in the American context like [16:17] very it become like politically coded um [16:20] it had become like intellectually coded [16:22] religion America was typically people [16:24] were talking about like Christianity was [16:26] like rightcoded [16:27] uh people forget like how important it [16:29] was like the dover verse kits Miller [16:30] decision that happened in the early [16:32] 2000s which was like this sort of court [16:34] case against a uh school district that [16:37] was trying to teach [16:39] intelligent design, some sort of [16:41] non-evolution thing. And they kind of [16:42] brought in all these scientific experts [16:44] that sort of smacked down these sort of [16:45] parochials. And and it was a time where [16:47] a lot of people, it was like John [16:48] Stewart, then the new atheist, you know, [16:51] post 911, religion is Bush, religion is [16:55] like jihadism, it's it's it's [16:57] superstition. It was like a really like [16:58] an anti-religion time. But that that [17:00] wheel is kind of turning again because [17:02] it turns out like the postmodern digital [17:04] that anything goes culture is fluid and [17:07] we move quickly through like digital [17:09] transition of information to reconfigure [17:10] our own sort of very fragile maps of [17:12] meaning that kind of shift from week to [17:14] week. This isn't cutting it. There's a [17:16] lot of nihilism and despair and and sort [17:18] of existential whatever. So there's a [17:20] there's an interest back once again in [17:21] transcendent values. You need something [17:23] like Karen Armstrong, I think, to make [17:25] sense of the moment. Like what does this [17:26] actually mean? What are these values? [17:27] what's the right way to approach them [17:28] with like humility? What's the right way [17:30] to engage spiritual technologies that [17:32] they're actually likely to make your [17:33] life better? Um, as opposed to lead you [17:36] even farther astray. So, I think this [17:37] book should be making a comeback. Very [17:39] smart, broad, sweeping history, which I [17:40] like as well. All right, Jesse, we got [17:44] uh three more books to get through. Um, [17:47] first, however, let's just take a quick [17:48] break. We got to pay the bills. I want [17:49] to talk briefly about some of the [17:50] sponsors that makes the show possible. [17:54] All [17:55] right, it's New Year's season, which [17:57] means if you're like me, you're starting [17:58] to think about how to get your finances [18:00] back in order for 2026 so that you can [18:04] start saving up for your visions of a [18:06] deeper life. 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[21:06] All right, the next book I want to talk [21:08] about, [21:10] You Are Not a Gadget, written by [21:15] uh Jiren Lair. All right, so this was [21:18] subtitled a manifesto. Um it came out in [21:20] the late 2000s, I think like right [21:23] around 2009 or 2010. [21:25] Uh this book was really influential to [21:28] me because what Lener brought into the [21:31] discussion of technology was humanism. [21:35] So he was talking about in this case web [21:38] 2 which was uh at this point dominated [21:42] by browserbased [21:44] social media like Facebook. Those were [21:47] like the big players he's talking about [21:48] in this book like Instagram was just [21:50] starting to take off. So this was really [21:51] like a a Facebook era. And he was [21:55] talking about the way that these online [21:58] services, these massive online platforms [22:02] were robbing us of our humanity. [22:04] Wasn't talking about it robbing us of [22:06] our data. He wasn't talking about its [22:09] impacts on other things in our life or [22:11] the time it was taking. It was it's [22:14] dehumanizing us. Now, if you go to Jiren [22:16] Lair's website even today, you will see [22:18] that it's this really like cool, messy, [22:20] old school HTML like website like you [22:22] would see in 1993. He advocates in here [22:24] for a much more individualistic sort of [22:26] eccentric homemade web. The aesthetic [22:28] that dominated before the massive web 2 [22:31] coat 2.0 companies took over and sort of [22:34] homogenized all the web into these fixed [22:36] interfaces. It's Facebook or it's [22:37] Twitter or it's Instagram. And he says [22:39] this is really robbing [22:41] possibilities for self-expression. Like [22:44] when you're on Facebook and you have to [22:45] just select things from drop- down [22:47] menus, that's your only chance for [22:48] expressing yourself. Everything's going [22:51] look exactly the same. you're just [22:52] changing like different statuses or you [22:54] have one little box to put your five [22:55] favorite books. Like that's robbing you [22:57] of your ability to really have [22:58] self-expression, which is what the [23:00] internet was all about. Now, I'm not [23:02] super [23:04] jazzed up about like the particular [23:06] arguments about expression necessarily [23:07] that were big, self-expression, [23:09] creativity that were really big back [23:10] then. I'm more jazzed up about Lenire's [23:13] approach, his philosophical approach, [23:15] which is we start first by prioritizing [23:20] human flourishing in the human [23:21] experience. Technology should serve [23:23] that. And if we're not careful about [23:26] that, it will come in and squash that [23:29] without even thinking about it. The [23:31] technology can have these massive side [23:32] effects on our humanity without even [23:35] caring because it's trying to whatever [23:36] at that point build up user count and [23:38] later try to get engagement, try to sell [23:39] more advertisement. So I I think it's a [23:41] you know his approach it's like half [23:43] insane. He's a brilliant sort of half [23:45] insane type of writer. Um this was an [23:48] important approach. Like I'm flipping [23:49] this open now. I'm just curious about [23:51] like stuff I have highlighted. All [23:54] throughout here I have different um [23:57] highlights. [23:58] All right. So I'm just going to read [24:00] something from it. Here's something I [24:02] marked in here. Jiren says, "It seems [24:05] ridiculous to have to say this, but just [24:07] in case anyone is getting the wrong [24:08] idea, let me affirm that I am not [24:10] turning against the internet. I love the [24:13] internet." Uh, he goes on to say the old [24:16] talking about a forum he was on that [24:18] revives the magic of the early years of [24:20] the internet. There's a bit of a feeling [24:21] of paradise about it. You can feel each [24:22] participant's passion for the [24:24] instrument. We help each We help one [24:26] another because become more intense. [24:28] It's amazing to watch. This is a form [24:30] for an ancient instrument called an oud. [24:32] OUD oud players from around the world [24:34] cheer on uh an oud builder as he post [24:37] pictures of an instrument in the [24:38] construction. It's thrilling to hear [24:39] clips from a young player capturing [24:40] midair um just as she's getting good. [24:42] The fancy web 20 designs of the early [24:44] 21st century start off by classifying [24:46] people into bubbles. You meet your own [24:48] kind. Facebook tops up dating pools. [24:51] LinkedIn corrals careerist and so on. [24:53] The oud forum does the opposite. Right? [24:56] You will see this strain through a lot [24:57] of my writing. I mean, I I've done some [24:59] writing for the New Yorker in particular [25:01] about the magic of homemade communities [25:03] online and how that's like the internet [25:05] at its best. The self-p policing really [25:08] narrow, idiosyncratic, very uh thickly [25:11] connected, [25:13] eentric communities that use the [25:15] internet to bring people from different [25:16] physical locations into a common [25:17] cognitive space. I think there's a lot [25:20] of magic in those spaces like the oud [25:21] form that Lener talks about or, you [25:23] know, I I talked about the talknats.com [25:25] website in one of my New Yorker pieces. [25:27] There's so much more magic there. I [25:29] completely agree with Lair than what you [25:30] get in I am one of [25:34] 500 million people that are like looking [25:36] at and posting tweets on X today and [25:39] that it's being going through cybernetic [25:40] algorithms just to try to show me the [25:42] things are going to press my buttons. [25:43] It's the opposite of community. It's the [25:45] opposite of expression. It's the [25:46] opposite of I these are real people that [25:49] I know about the details of them and [25:51] their life and I see them as [25:52] threedimensional not I'm just on some [25:54] massive conversation platform where [25:56] everyone is just like a name and text in [25:59] the exact same format one after another. [26:00] So that's a very some influential ideas [26:02] in there and it really influenced my [26:03] thinking and should influence the way [26:04] you think about technology. Humans [26:06] first, human flourishing first. [26:09] Technology should serve that where it's [26:10] not we should be more willing to stand [26:12] up and be stronger. All right. The next [26:13] book came out the same year. Um, this [26:16] was also very influential, but it took a [26:18] completely different tact on talking [26:19] about technology. This was Nick Carr's [26:22] The Shallows: What the Internet is Doing [26:24] to Our Brains. What he's doing in this [26:26] book might seem old hat today, but it [26:29] was pretty revolutionary at the time. He [26:31] basically said, "Look, I don't know if [26:33] you've noticed this, but I'm having a [26:35] harder time reading. I can't organize my [26:38] thoughts as much." And then he does like [26:40] really good cars, a good journalist, a [26:42] lot of investigation, talking to [26:44] scientists and reading the research lead [26:45] literature on brain functioning and [26:47] finding out, oh, [26:50] these new technologies, us being on the [26:52] web and on apps all the time, really [26:53] could rewire your brain in a way that's [26:55] permanent, [26:57] right? So, this technology actually can [26:58] have a permanent change on your brain. [27:01] It will change the way your brain [27:02] functions. That matters. We got to [27:04] discuss that and care about it. uh it [27:06] became a finalist for the Pulitzer Prize [27:08] sort of out of nowhere because uh the [27:10] the idea was like really big and the [27:12] Pulitzer Committee, let's be honest, is [27:13] is almost always now working backwards [27:15] from we want to have a book that [27:16] celebrates this and a book that [27:17] celebrates that. And I guess this was on [27:19] their mind back then, but it it still is [27:21] a mark that this is like a a really [27:22] important book. So now we're kind of [27:24] more used to this. I mean, you wouldn't [27:25] have like a John Height today without a [27:26] Nicholas Carr 15 years ago. I'm looking [27:29] at the science of how this technology [27:31] impacts us and we should know about it. [27:32] So you get a good onetwo punch here. [27:34] Lenire the humanism [27:37] the humanist impact of technology. How [27:39] is this uh supporting or going against [27:42] our ability to thrive is what it means [27:43] to be humans? Humans have to be define [27:46] themselves separate from technology. And [27:49] then cars like we got to care about the [27:51] biology of technological impacts. What [27:53] actually happens in our brain if we're [27:54] looking at the screens uh so much. [27:57] People talked about this book but they [27:58] didn't know what to do with it so they [27:59] just ignored it. And now it's really [28:00] hard to ignore it. Just we're just [28:02] dumber. we're just not thinking as much [28:04] anymore. And that's fine if we want to [28:06] go back to like an early Neolithic type [28:07] of situation where most of us don't have [28:09] to think that much because mainly what [28:10] we're doing is harvesting, you know, [28:12] wheat. [28:14] But I don't think our world or our [28:15] economy is going to support that. So, it [28:17] matters that we're losing our ability to [28:19] think. And this is sort of the the [28:20] Bible, the original source document [28:23] about why technology is not just a tool [28:26] and all that matters is how you use it [28:27] in the moment. It can have long-term [28:29] impacts. All right. final book I want to [28:31] talk about Richard Roars Falling Upward. [28:36] This is definitely especially an [28:38] important book if you're like leaving [28:39] your early adulthood. So basically the [28:41] idea of Richard Roar who is um a [28:45] Franciscan priest from New Mexico. His [28:49] basic idea is there's two phases to [28:51] life. There's this first phase of life [28:52] as you go through your 20s into your 30s [28:54] where what's happening here is it's all [28:55] uphill. Uh all ascent in a positive [28:58] sense like you have your goals, you're [29:00] going after them, you're making [29:01] progress, you're moving up the career [29:02] ladder, you you get married, maybe you [29:04] have a family, like things are going [29:05] well, you're comfortable, everything is [29:07] all potential. And then he says, guess [29:08] what happens at some point? The hammer [29:10] falls and hardship happens. That's just [29:12] the human condition. You lose this job, [29:14] you get sick, this didn't work out the [29:15] way you wanted, this plateaus, you deal [29:17] with like some sort of other types of [29:19] issues. the hardship enters the picture [29:22] and he says in this book great that's [29:24] when the interesting stuff begins. It's [29:27] the hardship that happens like as you [29:29] approach midlife that you emerge out of [29:32] and when you you have this second peak [29:35] that is much more built around deeper [29:37] wisdom. It's built around connection to [29:40] others. It's built around helping [29:42] others. It's built around like gratitude [29:43] and understanding of the beauty of the [29:45] world around you. putting your [29:47] circumstances into um into context, [29:50] getting out of this completely [29:51] egocentric part of view. And he's like, [29:54] this is where like the the beautiful [29:55] phase of life emerges if you navigate [29:57] that second that second slope properly. [30:01] So, it's like an instruction manual for [30:02] what you do in life when there's [30:03] hardship. David Brooks like kind of he [30:06] took the same idea. He basically took [30:07] Richard Roar and wrote a longer version [30:09] of this book with more stories. That's [30:10] the second mountain. So, if you want [30:12] like a more digestible storydriven [30:15] version of of Roar's ideas, you can also [30:17] read David Brooks's book, The Sucket [30:18] Mountain, which is about the same thing [30:20] about Brooks going through this [30:21] transition after his initial ascent to [30:23] be a very successful writer and op-ed [30:25] writer, his divorce and and other and [30:27] his uh nihilistic despair and sort of [30:30] how he he refound in this second half of [30:32] life like a different way um a much more [30:35] meaningful phase. So, I think it's like [30:39] read this before you need it. It's it's [30:40] a it's a really important book when [30:42] you're thinking about navigating life in [30:44] a deep way. And it's a book that I keep [30:46] thinking about again when you look [30:48] around the postmodern digital, [30:49] especially with younger people. There is [30:52] no [30:54] framework to deal with with hardship and [30:56] people just fall into hardship tunnels [30:59] or fall in the trauma tunnels. It all [31:01] just becomes I I can barely function. We [31:04] see these videos of, you know, college [31:05] students. Like I can barely I'm I'm [31:08] overcome with disordering rage around [31:13] god knows you know something that you [31:15] didn't even know was an issue until some [31:17] academic idea made it into the [31:18] mainstream about you know oh you you you [31:20] mentioned this whatever whatever like [31:22] people just um crippled by hardship [31:26] we don't have the frames anymore. We [31:28] have a lot of in the postmodern digital [31:30] we get a lot of tools to explain and [31:31] pass around understanding about all the [31:33] different ways that everyone's harming [31:34] everyone and the power dynamics etc. But [31:36] we don't have the tools for but how do [31:37] you navigate that and climb? [31:40] How do you like turn as a hardship is [31:42] also like how do you move through that? [31:44] How do you find like beauty in life [31:45] through things not going the way you [31:46] want? Like we don't talk enough about [31:48] that. This book is about that. And so I [31:51] think it's really important especially [31:52] again all of this goes into our current [31:54] moment where we're on our phones and not [31:55] in real life. or letting processors [31:57] think for us instead of our neurons. [31:59] This moment has all sorts of negative [32:01] side effects. These are the type of [32:02] books that can help you find grounding [32:04] and depth even in that world. All right, [32:06] so those Jesse, I grabbed those just off [32:08] the shelf. So again, these aren't the [32:09] best six, but they're six that I think [32:10] are really important. I've read all [32:11] those books multiple times. [32:13] >> Um, couple follow-ups. When do you think [32:15] we should have these books read by? [32:18] >> Um, I mean, let's be realistic. Like you [32:19] could take all the way to like the 5ifth [32:20] of January. [32:23] I don't want to be unreasonable. [32:25] Um, yeah, just read. I don't know. Pick [32:27] some Pick some that seem interesting. [32:28] Start reading them. Put down the phone, [32:30] actually read them. You know, I have a [32:32] goal for each just to because needing to [32:34] get a book done by a certain time forces [32:36] you to like put aside reading time and [32:37] not look at your phone because you're [32:38] like, I'm not going to get this done if [32:39] I have it there. So, I don't know. Read [32:41] one of them the first week of the new [32:43] year. How about that? And then see what [32:44] goes from there. [32:45] >> And then did IG start on a browser? [32:49] >> No. And that was part of why it was so [32:52] innovative [32:53] >> because it was using the phone on the [32:56] the camera on the phone. It was phone [32:58] native. Okay, that's why it was so [33:00] successful [33:01] >> is that Facebook was going through all [33:02] this effort to build out the mobile [33:04] version of Facebook and like how does [33:05] this work? IG was mobile native because [33:07] it had to use the phone. [33:09] >> And that's why and I'll give Zuckerberg [33:10] credit. Uh he's good at acquisitions. [33:13] He's bad at ideas. [33:15] look at the metaverse, you know, look at [33:17] they're like stumbling AI place, but [33:19] he's good at acquisitions. And I think [33:21] what he saw with IG was like, oh, wait a [33:23] second, this has to be on the phone [33:26] because that's where the camera is. But [33:27] if this is on the phone, people are [33:28] looking at it way more often because [33:30] their phone is with them. [33:31] >> Oh, having a good interface on the phone [33:34] means you're going to 10x your [33:36] engagement. [33:37] >> So, yeah, IG kind of kicked IG is who I [33:39] think kicked off the phone age. I mean, [33:41] Facebook mobile was a thing, but the [33:42] early versions of it were not very good [33:43] and people like, I'll just use the web. [33:45] >> I guess one of the things about [33:46] Zuckerberg and ideas is you can kind of [33:49] look at it like a GM and make an [33:51] acquisition. Say a GM has been on a of a [33:53] team for like 10 years and he makes good [33:55] acquisitions and bad acquisitions. I [33:57] mean, [33:57] >> yeah. Yeah. Like I I think um [34:00] >> he's definitely had some [34:01] >> IG and WhatsApp IG and WhatsApp were [34:03] really good acquisitions. Um he was I [34:08] think he was good to realize [34:10] from a financial perspective the [34:12] engagement model. Uh the main thing I [34:15] think his his most brilliant move was [34:16] probably recognizing a little late but [34:20] recognizing oh the power of data [34:23] targeted advertising. [34:25] He kind of he learned that looking at [34:27] Google like oh they have like um they're [34:30] using more information to target these [34:32] ads more they're using the the search [34:34] terms to target the ads and them [34:36] realizing [34:38] wait a second we have a lot more data [34:40] than that on people like our business is [34:42] making money off of data. So everything [34:45] is about gathering data and monetizing [34:47] data u and we use apps to do that. I [34:49] think that was like a huge shift in his [34:51] thinking. And you gotta give him credit. [34:52] That's that company is is um almost a [34:55] trillion dollar company, if not a [34:56] trillion dollar company right now. So, [34:58] you know, he correctly saw there's a lot [34:59] of money in that. And I guess when you [35:01] have that much money, there's also [35:02] something to be said for you can take [35:04] swings and absorb them. Why not? [35:05] >> Yeah. It's kind of like the Yankees or [35:06] the Dodgers. [35:07] >> Yeah. You can take those swings. Like I [35:09] don't know if this like pitch out of [35:10] Japan's going to, [35:11] >> you know, uh, pan out or not, but let's [35:14] just do a $75 million deal and see [35:16] because if they do, it can really help [35:19] you in your World Series run. All right. [35:21] Um, enough of that. Let's do God. We're [35:22] letting people take over the show, [35:23] aren't we? [35:24] >> Yeah. [35:24] >> It's all calls. [35:25] >> Yeah. [35:26] >> How many do we got? [35:27] >> Seven. [35:28] >> All right. I'm going to be quick. This [35:29] is my thing. Hold me to this. No long [35:31] answers. I'm going to be py, right? And [35:33] I ask people to do short calls. They're [35:35] mainly pretty short, right? [35:36] >> Yeah. [35:37] >> Okay. Um, and you will confirm. I have [35:38] not heard any of these. [35:40] >> Confirmed. [35:40] >> All right. Are these all from Mark [35:42] Zuckerberg? [35:44] >> You son of a [35:45] >> He wants to hire you. [35:46] >> Yeah. [35:46] >> To write his his biography. [35:48] >> I want to buy deep media is the new [35:51] WhatsApp. I want to buy your company. [35:53] You know what biography? [35:54] >> Actually, if he offered you like $5 [35:55] million, you'd probably write his [35:56] biography, wouldn't you? [35:57] >> You know what biography? I I would be [36:00] really interested in writing, but I [36:01] don't know why I would spend so many [36:02] years doing this. Like, it makes no [36:02] sense for me, but like I could make a [36:04] good pitch to the Family Foundation to [36:05] do it. Kryon. Oh, would that be [36:09] interesting? Like an I think I would It [36:11] would take me five years to do that, [36:12] right? And I That doesn't make sense. [36:15] So, I hope someone else does, but man, [36:18] there could be an epic like a [36:20] biography. It spans [36:22] before we landed on the moon all the way [36:25] through like the modern internet age. [36:26] And he was kind of involved in all of [36:28] this. And it's so there's like a there's [36:29] a there's a structural backbone there [36:31] for like the entire sort of history of [36:32] the post second half of the 20th century [36:35] uh of all these different economies and [36:37] ideas and televisions and movies and [36:39] what was happening in publishing and [36:40] he's this weird interesting guy. Um [36:42] there's a ton he found there's a ton of [36:45] papers on him. He's a very well [36:46] doumented guy. So I thought about that [36:49] for a second because I've been reading a [36:50] bunch of kite in my uh thriller [36:53] >> December. Yeah. But I was like oh man [36:54] why would I do that though? But if you [36:56] could pick a foresome, he'd probably be [36:57] in your golfing forsome, right? [36:59] >> Yeah. I mean, I don't think I'd go I [37:00] play golf because it would be terrible. [37:03] It would be like [37:04] >> kind of like some metaphor. [37:05] >> Michael, I have a lot of questions for [37:06] you. Let me just take my first shot [37:07] here. And the club is in his eye. He's [37:10] dead. I just killed him with my driver [37:12] by accident. That would be the [37:13] immediate. [37:14] >> He probably didn't play much golf [37:15] either. You guys go to the putting [37:17] green. [37:17] >> Yeah, he was like six nine or something. [37:20] Was he that tall? [37:20] >> 67. He's very tall. [37:22] >> Maybe 66. Yeah, he was a really tall [37:24] guy. Wow. Which I think makes golf [37:27] harder probably. I don't know. [37:29] >> It can I don't know. I guess Michael [37:31] Jordan played a lot of golf. All right, [37:32] this we're off track here. Let us get to [37:34] our first call. [37:38] >> Henrik beginning the deep work HQ from [37:41] Norway. I went to hypnosis to get rid of [37:43] my Facebook addiction back in 2010 to be [37:46] able to finish my master's thesis. So [37:49] later when I discovered your books, it [37:51] was like coming home. Thank you very [37:53] much. [37:54] Now I have two boys, one and four, [37:57] together with a smartphone addicted [37:58] mother and there's a power struggle [38:01] going on in the family and I need your [38:03] help to win it. My first question, I [38:06] realized the toxic effect social media [38:08] had on me on my own the hard way. How [38:10] can I help my boys do the same and come [38:13] to the same conclusion? [38:15] All the while, their mother and [38:17] grandparents use iPads and smartphones [38:20] as their go-to pacifier. My second [38:22] question, when I have won the boys over [38:24] to team dad/noscreens, [38:26] how can we together shame their mother [38:28] into submission to our screenfree cause? [38:31] This is our most desperate hour. Help [38:34] me, Obi-Wan Kenobi. You're my only hope. [38:37] >> All right, I appreciate the question. As [38:39] everyone I think any good couples [38:41] therapist will tell you, Jesse, one of [38:43] the key strategies of couples therapy is [38:46] shaming the other person in the [38:47] submission. I think that's like the name [38:48] of one of Esther Perll's books. Shame [38:51] the bastard in the submission. Um, let [38:53] me put aside what to do with your your [38:55] wife and grand and her parents or [38:56] in-laws. Like there be dragons. You [38:59] can't change other adults behaviors. But [39:00] how you raise your own kids, this really [39:02] matters. [39:04] Remember this idea that these [39:06] technologies are somehow fundamental. [39:08] This is like driving a car and everyone [39:10] has to do it eventually. So like why are [39:12] we putting this off is absolute [39:14] nonsense. [39:15] It is a massive attention conglomerate [39:18] that just tries to make money off of [39:20] your distraction. It doesn't mean that [39:21] it's evil for everyone or that it [39:23] necessarily needs to be banned, but it [39:24] is not fundamental and it's not [39:26] necessary. And the idea that it's [39:28] somehow important for these kids to be [39:29] exposed to it or you're holding them off [39:31] of an important life thing every month [39:33] that you're saying you can't be on [39:34] social media. It's nonsense. You got to [39:36] see this like you would see cigarettes. [39:38] Not that we necessarily want to ban [39:40] them, but it's completely reasonable to [39:41] be like, "My 14-year-old's not smoking." [39:43] So I do think you need to hold the line [39:45] and the line I think you need to hold is [39:47] I would typically say nothing like a [39:48] smartphone. Uh here we would say till [39:51] high school that might be different in [39:53] in Norway the ages but like roughly that [39:55] like 14 15 year old and even that's [39:57] going to be like a just for logistics. [39:59] That's a heavily locked down phone. [40:00] Certainly no social media apps or un [40:02] access to YouTube. It's just like you [40:04] need to be able to uh do text messaging [40:07] and like send photos around and look up [40:08] movie times on the phone or whatever. [40:10] And then 16 more or less is when you [40:12] begin to pull the restrictions back. The [40:15] thing I would hold until they leave the [40:17] house, no matter where they are on that [40:19] scale, the kitchen lives in the kitchen. [40:22] I mean, the uh the phone lives in the [40:24] kitchen. When you're home, it's plugged [40:26] in in the kitchen. It's not your [40:27] property. It is mine. It is not a [40:29] constant companion. You do not just [40:31] carry that phone with you and you just [40:33] kind of use it whenever. It is a tool [40:35] and when you need it, you come to the [40:36] kitchen. If you're in a text [40:37] conversation, you sit there in the [40:38] kitchen to finish the conversation. You [40:39] need to look something up, you come to [40:40] the kitchen and you look it up. They [40:43] learn. It's a tool, not a companion. And [40:46] is the absolute best way to do it. And [40:48] you should do the same with your own [40:49] phone. You should ask your wife to join [40:50] you. She probably won't, but whatever. [40:51] You just do it your way. I think that is [40:54] so vital. That's how you you break the [40:56] pacifier effect because so much what [40:58] happens is people see this as this uh [41:00] binary. [41:01] Either I'm not using a phone and it's [41:03] like this big to-do and I make a big [41:04] deal about it or I do it all. Right? I [41:07] mean, it's like someone saying like, "I [41:09] never touch a drop of alcohol." And then [41:10] someone is like, "Well, you know, it's [41:11] nice to have wine at dinner parties." [41:13] And then they they show up the next day [41:14] with a foam dome on with two uh beer [41:16] bottles on a helmet with straws coming [41:18] to their mouth. You don't It's not all [41:19] or nothing. [41:21] So, it's like, okay, you're now in high [41:22] school or the equivalent of Norway. You [41:24] have a smartphone because like this is [41:25] how you like, you know, you you [41:27] coordinate with your friends and look up [41:29] stuff. Does it mean you can be in your [41:32] bedroom till 4 in the morning, you know, [41:34] looking at porn while listening to [41:35] farright podcast? No, I don't want you [41:38] to do that. Not while you're living [41:39] here. I'm still your parent. The phone [41:42] lives in the kitchen. You use it there [41:43] when you need it. You can bring it with [41:44] you if you're going out with your [41:45] friends. When you come back, you put [41:45] your kitchen. So, you just learn to do [41:47] your homework, to watch TV, to be at [41:49] meals with your family, to be reading a [41:52] book in another room that the phone is [41:53] just not right there. You you prevent it [41:55] from becoming that default sort of [41:56] pacification. I think that is so [41:57] critical for kids. Now, here's the other [41:59] caveat I want to throw at you. An iPad [42:01] is just an inconveniently large iPhone. [42:04] It's the same. If they have an iPad with [42:06] all those apps on it and the internet [42:08] and it's theirs and they have it and [42:09] they can keep it in their room, you've [42:11] just given them a bad iPhone. It's hard [42:13] to fit in your pocket, but it it's it's [42:15] running iOS. It's the same thing. It's [42:16] just a bigger screen. When the first [42:19] iPads came out, this was the thing that [42:20] they were mocked at first before they [42:22] turned out to be a very popular uh [42:24] product. The mocking was like, "Wait a [42:26] second. This is just running the exact [42:27] same phone operating and software with [42:29] the exact same touch interface just on [42:30] like a bigger phone. This is just like a [42:32] worse phone. How is this ever going to [42:34] sell? And then it did because people [42:35] like having larger things for like [42:36] reading and watching things and phones [42:38] are pretty small. But it is just a [42:40] phone. So if they have an iPad that [42:42] lives in the kitchen, too. Same rules. [42:45] It's completely locked down until you're [42:47] 16. You do not have unrestricted access [42:49] to your own iPad before like 14 or 15. [42:52] The same rules. It's just an [42:53] inconveniently large iPhone. All right. [42:55] So that's that's what I say you need to [42:57] do. I think that is the best way to [42:59] raise kids. You're giving them a massive [43:01] competitive advantage. Not just [43:03] professionally and academically, but [43:04] just in terms of human flourishing. So, [43:06] I would hold that line. Say this is just [43:08] very important to me as a parent. I'll [43:09] be the parent in charge of technology. [43:10] That's fine. This is very important and [43:12] that's what we're doing. All right. Who [43:14] do we got next? [43:15] >> Hey Cal, this is Christian from Arizona. [43:17] I have a question about building a [43:18] creative deep life when your identity [43:20] spans more than one craft. I'm a [43:22] creative writer and photographer, and I [43:23] also DJ and book music events. I also [43:25] work a full-time digital job that leans [43:27] on a lot of these same creative [43:28] abilities. I'm efficient with the work, [43:30] so I usually have time left at the end [43:32] of the day. But after spending hours in [43:33] a screenheavy, creative but shallow [43:35] mode, I'm finding it hard to switch [43:36] gears into deeper creative work when I'm [43:38] done with my day job. Because of that, I [43:40] tend to only have the energy for one [43:42] craft at a time. The rotation has been a [43:44] pattern for most of my life, but now [43:45] that I'm well into my second career and [43:47] have my day job fairly locked down, I'm [43:49] trying to engage with my passions more [43:51] intentionally, especially writing and [43:53] photography, which I'd eventually like [43:54] to bring forward as my main work. But [43:56] the mental drain from my day job still [43:59] makes it hard to give more than one [44:00] creative pursuit steady momentum at any [44:02] given time. So my question is, how do [44:04] you design a deep life when your [44:06] identity is genuinely multimodal, but [44:08] your job draws from the same cognitive [44:10] and creative bandwidth you need for your [44:11] craft? Is this something you can handle [44:13] through seasonal focus or is there [44:15] another way to think about it? Thanks. [44:18] >> Uh, you got to just slow down, right? [44:20] You just have to accept it takes a lot [44:23] of energy to work on these projects. [44:25] they can be very meaningful these out of [44:27] work projects but it takes a lot of [44:28] energy and as you said sometimes that [44:29] energy is coming from the same reservoir [44:31] you've been pulling on all day during [44:32] work [44:34] so just be okay with that yeah I'm just [44:36] kind of working on one thing and often I [44:38] can just do a little bit and then [44:39] occasionally like I I have like a full [44:41] day I can make bigger progress and I'm [44:43] just happy I have that in my life and [44:45] I'm I'm expanding out to like what did I [44:47] do this year and not what did I get done [44:49] this week I'm leaving that sort of uh [44:51] short-term churn productivity mindset [44:53] with these [44:55] nonprofessional task and just it's a [44:56] slow productivity. I'm just going to I I [44:58] work on this slow and steady. Now, a [45:00] couple of things to consider. One, you [45:01] can if you need have a much more [45:03] definitive transition between work and [45:05] nonwork, that helps make it exercise [45:07] based, maybe outside if you're able to [45:09] do like a a hard run and like an outdoor [45:12] prison yard style workout, like [45:13] something that gets you like completely [45:15] changes your context and gets all your [45:16] muscles working and exhausts you and [45:18] then you come in and like, you know, you [45:19] eat and whatever, like you've completely [45:21] swapped your your context. Having a [45:23] separate really good space for doing [45:25] your non-professional task works as [45:26] well. Like here's my really cool [45:28] workshop I go to that I work on my [45:30] photography or whatever and care about [45:32] that space. So it's just sort of like [45:34] fun to be there, that helps as well. And [45:36] then also like this is more extreme, but [45:38] if your career is going well, your [45:40] finances are under control, I think it's [45:42] completely reasonable. Like one of the [45:44] lifestyle ccentric planning plans you [45:46] might explore at some point is like I'm [45:48] actually backing off my work some and [45:52] I'm going to spend more time working on [45:53] other things. That's that's really [45:55] common actually in lifestyle planning [45:56] where people who have the ability to do [45:58] so end up this is the thing they change [46:00] in their lifestyle is less work more [46:03] non-work projects and they just find [46:04] that like a maybe like a 5050 uh balance [46:08] is what they want. Now that sounds crazy [46:09] for a lot of people. How could you [46:10] possibly do that? But some people are in [46:12] a situation where they can they work [46:14] remotely. They're really good. They can [46:16] raise their rates. They live cheaply. [46:18] They whatever it is, right? And they can [46:19] kind of find a way to make that work. So [46:20] I would keep those all in mind. I mean [46:22] that's kind of what I'm doing here, [46:22] Jesse, was trying to get [46:24] >> the the office of the Deepwork HQ. [46:27] >> I'm really I mean it's hard for me to [46:28] pull the trigger on that because it's a [46:30] >> a Rube Goldberg machine of parts that [46:32] all fit together to try to get [46:34] everything I want to do, the lights and [46:36] this and that and someone has to install [46:37] this first before we do that. I I I [46:38] don't quite see the whole thing, but I [46:41] really want that space to be a space [46:43] about creation. It's like half [46:45] everything is there for me to like be [46:47] building things with like micro [46:48] electronics and 3D printing and half [46:50] like everything is there for motivation [46:51] for writing and it's like a creative [46:53] space where I go and all I think there [46:55] is like creating and like that makes a [46:57] difference like having that space makes [46:59] it easier and more fun and more [47:00] rewarding to switch over to that [47:01] mindset. [47:03] >> Um there we go. Let's uh what do we [47:06] we're only two questions in. Yep. [47:08] >> Should we uh should we do one more and [47:10] then we'll we'll hear from a sponsor. Is [47:11] that a good way to do it? [47:12] >> Do one more. [47:12] >> Do one more. All right. It's gonna be a [47:14] good one. [47:15] >> So, I work for myself and I largely get [47:18] to make my own schedule. One of the [47:20] challenges I'm encountering is that when [47:21] I'm trying to time block out my schedule [47:23] for the week, what I'll often encounter [47:26] is that I'll be inspired to do some [47:29] writing for the job while the time block [47:32] has me doing something else or I'm [47:34] supposed to be making some big [47:35] decisions, but my brain is just not [47:37] cooperating. What would you recommend [47:40] here? Do you stick with it? Do you just [47:43] sit there even if you're not getting [47:45] much done but to build that muscle the [47:47] way that sometimes you might be told to [47:50] do in meditation just stay on the [47:51] cushion or do you switch to the task [47:54] that maybe has more life force in it or [47:58] something else entirely? Thank you. [48:01] >> Um I don't know. I think the answer is [48:02] probably more empetamines. [48:04] You really can boom. You can rock and [48:07] roll on something when you're tweaking [48:09] and you're just like let's do it. [48:11] emails. A lot a lot of all caps emails. [48:14] Boom. You say you type boom a lot when [48:16] you're on amphetamines. [48:18] Boom. Attachment. Um, I'm gonna give you [48:21] a compromise. I think you're time [48:23] blocking too far in advance. Don't try [48:25] to figure out your whole week down to [48:27] the scale of time. Instead, you might [48:29] have a good weekly plan. I got to get [48:31] this writing done. I got to do the [48:33] research for this project. And then [48:34] here's like some key tasks I need to get [48:36] done. and during your weekly plan, [48:37] especially for like key things where you [48:38] have to go somewhere, maybe I have to go [48:40] across town, you might want to get those [48:41] on your calendar so you don't uh run out [48:43] of time, but then time block each day as [48:46] you get there. Leave yourself [48:47] flexibility so that you can approach the [48:49] day and say, "All right, I have some, [48:50] you know, some uh room to decide what to [48:54] do when." And you know what? I'm not [48:56] really feeling writing this morning. So, [48:57] what if instead I do all of my tasks [48:59] that I had for this week? That's the [49:01] mood I'm in. I'm all hyped up on [49:03] caffeine, but I'm feeling bad about this [49:04] writing project. or like maybe I'm going [49:06] to write midday or like tackle each day. [49:08] Look at your weekly plan and make the [49:10] best day you can. So now you're not [49:12] trying to predict too far in advance. [49:14] That works well. Now if you've just made [49:15] a plan for that day that's reasonable [49:17] and now you're in that plan and you're [49:18] like I don't know this is just kind of [49:20] hard. I don't want to do it. That's then [49:22] when this is the compromise. You're like [49:23] I'm this is my time block. I made this [49:25] time block plan for today. This is a [49:27] reasonable mix of my mood and available [49:29] energy and time. This is what I'm going [49:30] to do. And you just kind of practice [49:32] sticking with it, right? So, I wouldn't [49:34] planned like next Friday what you're [49:36] going to be doing at 10. But if I [49:37] planned what I'm doing today at 10, then [49:39] I would do my best to actually stick [49:40] with that. If you want a more extreme [49:41] version of that, check out my interview [49:43] with Oliver Burkeman. That's a couple [49:44] years ago. Oliver is more on the side of [49:48] like just like let it ride. Make sure [49:50] you get worked on whatever is most [49:51] important that day. Like whatever's most [49:53] important to you, and then it's just [49:54] like whatever you're in the mood for. [49:55] Now, we had an argument about it. I said [49:57] I think that's ideal, but most jobs just [49:58] don't allow that. we have to deal in the [50:00] reality of the workloads of most people. [50:02] You're working on 10 simultaneous [50:04] things. You just can't if you approach [50:06] the day like what am I in the mood to [50:07] do? It's not going to work. But I did [50:08] agree with him from a a cognitive [50:11] standpoint. It is a nice way to approach [50:13] work. So he pushes for a more extreme [50:14] version. So you could check that out my [50:16] interview with him if you want to see um [50:19] something that leans more towards [50:20] flexibility. But the compromise is where [50:22] I would fall. All right. Now we're going [50:23] to do Jesse a quick break to hear from [50:25] another sponsor. [50:27] There's been a lot of talk recently [50:29] about AI, including some big radical [50:31] visions of what this technology might [50:33] one day do. But here's what I care [50:36] about. How can the tools that exist [50:39] right now, make the shallow work that I [50:41] do right now easier? I'm all about the [50:45] pragmatism. This is where a new tool [50:47] from Notion comes in. It's called Notion [50:50] Agent, and it definitely caught my [50:51] attention. So, Notion, as you know, [50:53] longtime sponsor of the show, is a [50:55] service that brings all of your notes, [50:56] documents, and projects into one [50:57] connected space that just works. Notion [51:00] Agent now makes this space even easier [51:03] and more delightful by helping you do [51:06] busy work on your behalf. Like you just [51:08] had a meeting, Notion Agent can read [51:10] through your notes and add action items [51:12] right into Notion itself. It can tag [51:13] other team members on Notion so they can [51:15] go and see this information. Maybe [51:16] you're prepping for a presentation. [51:18] Notion agent can go through your [51:20] workspace and gather all the information [51:21] you need and put it together for you in [51:23] a sample template. It can even go beyond [51:25] your notion workspace itself and use [51:28] connected tools like Slack or Google [51:29] Drive to try to help take this busy work [51:32] off your plate. I love that it's focused [51:35] and practical. It's no wonder that over [51:38] half of the Fortune 500 plus fast [51:40] growing companies like OpenAI, Ramp, and [51:41] Versell are using Notion Agent to send [51:43] fewer emails, cancel more meetings, and [51:46] stay ahead. [51:48] Try Notion now with Notion agent at [51:51] notion.com/cowal. [51:53] Now you have to type that in all [51:54] lowercase letters. Notion.com/cal [51:58] to try your new AI teammate Notion agent [52:01] today. When you use our link, remember [52:03] you're supporting our show. That's [52:05] notion.com/cal. [52:08] Let's also talk about Wayfair. When you [52:10] need to get your home holiday ready [52:12] fast, Wayfair has you covered. from cozy [52:14] bedding to festive decor for every room. [52:17] They're literally a one-stop shop for [52:20] all things home. Now, let's say you [52:22] need, for example, because we all do, [52:24] evergreen accent pillows to make your [52:26] living room more sort of seasonally [52:27] appropriate. Wayfair has you covered. [52:29] Maybe you need an inflatable snow globe [52:31] for your yard because those are awesome. [52:33] They have you covered, too. If you're [52:35] like me and you think it's appropriate [52:36] to set up a winter wonderland decoration [52:38] scene inside of your house because that [52:40] allows you to keep it up throughout all [52:41] of January, Wayfair is going to have [52:44] what you need for that as well. Um, I [52:46] use Wayfair all the time. There's three [52:47] reasons. Three reasons why I'm a Wayfair [52:49] fan. Number one, they have what I'm [52:51] looking for. It's such a wide selection, [52:54] but the stuff they have is often very [52:55] distinctive. So, you'll get that chair [52:57] decoration or accent pillow will be [52:59] different than the other ones you've [53:00] seen. Number two, good prices. Man, the [53:03] prices are just right. And number three, [53:05] the shipping is fast and easy, even on [53:07] the big stuff, so you can get what you [53:09] need when you need it. No more huge [53:10] delivery fees for furniture. Get stuff [53:12] like sofas, dining tables, beds, desks, [53:14] and more uh shipped to you for free. I [53:16] love all those reasons. Um so, I'm a big [53:18] Wayfair plan. In fact, we're [53:19] redecorating my son's room this uh [53:21] season in January. That's going to be a [53:23] big Wayfair project. All right, but [53:25] we're still in the holidays now. So, get [53:27] your last minute hosting essentials, [53:29] gifts for all your loved ones, and decor [53:31] to celebrate the holidays for way less. [53:33] Head to wayfair.com right now to shop [53:35] all things home. That's w afir.com. [53:39] Wayfair, every style, every home. All [53:43] right, let's get back to the questions, [53:44] Jesse. [53:46] Um, I think we need to take a uh I was [53:48] just thinking about before we get to the [53:49] next question, do we need a sleigh bell [53:51] break? [53:52] >> Sure. I am worried that we're losing the [53:54] the holiday spirit. Ah, there we go. [53:58] Now we are ready [54:01] to hear some more questions. [54:02] >> Hey, Joe from Jerusalem. been a fan for [54:05] many years and I'm wondering if you see [54:09] a way of building the deep life for [54:12] areas and people who are not purely [54:15] knowledge work meaning salespeople or [54:18] other professions that require other [54:20] people's attention and are not strictly [54:23] focus-based. Thank you and would love to [54:26] hear what you think. [54:28] >> All right. Well, that's a good question. [54:30] U first caller from Jerusalem. That's [54:32] cool. Yeah, [54:33] >> it's a cool place to be around the [54:34] holidays. [54:35] >> Very like, you know, the audience is [54:37] from all over the world. [54:38] >> It's a very international audience. [54:39] Yeah. Um, a lot of UK people, too. [54:42] >> Yeah, I get emails from all sorts of [54:43] people. Well, my books are all over. I [54:45] think it's like we're getting closer to [54:46] 50 languages now. [54:48] >> So, it's it's hard [54:49] >> to stay away from all things Newport. [54:52] Uh, I got to help your terminology here. [54:56] You're saying, "Can I do the deep life [54:59] if I'm in a job in which people [55:01] constantly need my attention?" Let's be [55:03] careful of technology. The deep life is [55:06] my description of a life that you have [55:08] engineered to to focus heavily on things [55:10] that matter at you and the to you and to [55:12] reduce things that don't. Um, my [55:15] argument is if you don't pursue a deep [55:17] life, it's hard to do any of the other [55:18] stuff I talk about. Like why get off [55:20] your phone if you have nothing to do [55:21] when you put it down? Why like move away [55:24] from a job that's all emails if it's [55:26] just an empty boring void when you're [55:28] not you know an outlook. So I think the [55:29] deep life is a foundation on which like [55:31] everything else we talk about matters. [55:33] My key technique for the deep life is [55:35] lifestylecentric planning working [55:37] backwards from a vision of what you want [55:38] in your ideal lifestyle then saying how [55:39] do I move closer to that vision using [55:41] the the obstacles and opportunities that [55:43] I currently possess. That's the deep [55:44] life. I'm writing a book about that now [55:46] coming out next year. That's one topic [55:49] you're talking about more of the the um [55:52] distraction in the workplace which I [55:53] cover in my books deep work and in my [55:55] book a world without email and to a [55:56] lesser extent my book Slower [55:57] Productivity that's different [56:00] a more focused topic probably the one [56:02] I'm known most for so in that topic what [56:04] I'm arguing is the human brain has a [56:07] hard time context switching from one [56:08] thing to another if you need to produce [56:10] something new using your brain in a way [56:13] that's time efficient and produces the [56:14] best quality it has to be able to focus [56:16] without distraction on that thing that's [56:17] just how the human brain function. So, [56:19] we should be careful if that is your [56:21] job. We should be careful about putting [56:22] you in a work environment that has [56:25] collaboration styles that require you to [56:26] constantly be changing your attention [56:28] back and forth. That's what that theory [56:30] is about. [56:32] So, what you're talking about is like if [56:33] you have a job that's based on like [56:34] responding to people, I don't see it as [56:36] a problem with either of that because [56:39] they're we're talking about different [56:40] things. It has nothing to do with the [56:42] deep life. That's a bigger picture. Like [56:44] what do I want my ideal lifestyle to be [56:45] with and am I moving forward to it? you [56:47] should be doing that by the way but [56:49] that's above the the level right now of [56:52] your specific job and if you don't do [56:54] deep work in your job if you're not [56:55] trying to create new value from scratch [56:56] with your brain then worrying about [56:57] context switch or this or that is much [56:58] less important so you just worry about [56:59] like how do I do my job best [57:02] and so you can be a believer in the [57:04] ideas I talk about without feeling like [57:05] you're doing something wrong by being in [57:06] a job that's very like communication [57:08] based the caveat is if there is stuff [57:12] you do in your job that does require you [57:14] creating new value with your brain like [57:15] maybe you talk to a lot of clients but [57:17] also have to create white papers, [57:18] marketing white papers or really [57:20] beautiful proposals to try to sell [57:21] clients, things where you're creating [57:22] hard value with your brain. Find ways to [57:25] take those efforts and to protect them. [57:28] That doesn't mean like I can't be [57:29] reached by email and I'm in a cave, but [57:31] it might mean like I have these very [57:33] specific times where I work in a [57:34] different location and that's when I get [57:36] full focus on the creation things. So, [57:39] if you have things in your work life [57:40] that depend on deep work, protect those. [57:42] But again, these theories fit for what [57:44] they fit. They're not moral [57:46] prescriptions for what makes a good life [57:47] good or bad. The deep life is a [57:48] intentional approach to living. Deep [57:50] work and deep work theory and attention [57:52] capital theory is just a honestly a [57:55] cognitive science theory about how the [57:56] brain functions and how you create [57:57] symbolic knowledge using the brain. So [57:59] you're probably okay. People mix all [58:01] this stuff up all the time. It's my [58:03] fault for not being clear, but um you [58:06] know there all these things describe [58:07] very specific things. [58:08] >> Well, over time there's more and more [58:10] terminologies that you've been using too [58:11] and creating. So [58:12] >> yeah, I do I do create new [58:13] terminologies. Yeah, I think the right [58:14] terminology for all the deep work stuff [58:15] is attention capital theory. [58:17] >> That the best way to make value out of [58:19] attention capital to take the attention [58:21] capital someone has and to produce new [58:23] value using it is often to make sure [58:25] that you're creating a cognitive [58:26] environment with um minimal context [58:29] shifts. [58:30] >> That's attention capital theory. Deep [58:31] life theory is about um [58:34] you need to focus intentionally on [58:36] amplifying the stuff that matters and [58:38] reducing the stuff that doesn't in order [58:39] to get a life that feels like it's [58:40] meaningful and resilient and robust, [58:42] etc. All [58:43] right, what we got? [58:45] >> Hi, Cal. I'm trying to figure out how we [58:49] got to this point. [58:52] In the '9s, they called it [58:54] disintermediation. [58:56] And now we're all expected to do [58:59] everything for ourselves. [59:02] Each person, no matter how old or young, [59:05] is [59:06] supposed to be their own IT department, [59:09] dealing with a confluence of technology [59:12] that's really just completely [59:15] overwhelming to most people, let alone [59:18] get your arms around understanding [59:20] what's actually happening when you click [59:21] a button. I would love to hear your [59:24] thoughts about where this is headed and [59:27] how we can actually deal with this going [59:30] forward. I don't know. [59:32] >> All right. Uh, good question. I've [59:35] written about this exact issue many [59:36] times. My book, World Without Email, I [59:38] think, gets into this probably in the [59:39] most detail. Here is exactly what [59:41] happened. [59:42] When it came to the idea of how do we [59:45] increase productivity and knowledge [59:47] work, especially with the advent of [59:48] digital tools, the management class [59:51] focused myopically on salary. [59:55] They said here is our expense is salary. [59:59] So if we can reduce the number of people [60:01] we pay salaries to, we are a more [60:04] profitable and productive company. They [60:07] were entirely indifferent to what were [60:10] the things that you were paying these [60:12] salaries to which are uh essentially [60:14] brains. You're a knowledgeware company [60:17] brains surrounded by a bunch of stuff [60:19] that keeps the brain alive. You're [60:20] extracting value from brains. That's [60:21] your your main capital is attention [60:23] capital. And they completely ignored the [60:25] reality of like, well, wait a second. [60:27] These brains cannot just endlessly [60:30] produce value. They they can only do [60:32] certain things. It takes them a long [60:33] time to learn new things. It takes a [60:35] long time to switch from one thing to [60:37] another. We have to really care about [60:39] the environment in which we ask these [60:41] brains to produce valuable stuff for our [60:43] company. They completely ignored that [60:44] and said, "Here's what matters, salary." [60:46] And so when the personal computer [60:47] revolution in particular hit the front [60:49] office, they said, "Great. This is [60:52] making lots of things just easy enough [60:54] that we can fire the people who did this [60:55] as their full-time job. We don't need [60:57] typists. We don't need receptionists. We [60:59] don't need secretaries. We don't need a [61:01] travel pool to book the travel. Um, we [61:03] don't need uh people to keep track of [61:06] memos and move them around because in [61:08] theory, we could do this all on [61:09] computers. I can book my travel by [61:11] filling out online forms. I can send an [61:13] email instead of having to write out a a [61:16] memo. I don't need someone to take my [61:18] calls because they can just send emails [61:19] to me. I don't need a typist because I [61:21] can use a word processor. So even if I'm [61:22] a bad typer, I can eventually make the [61:24] thing in the word processor work and [61:26] then we can fire all those support staff [61:28] and now we're much more profitable. Now [61:30] of course that didn't work because [61:31] here's the thing those brains that [61:33] remained had to learn to do all those [61:34] other things and those other things take [61:36] time and more importantly and this is my [61:38] contribution that I think was missed [61:39] from the literature induce a lot more [61:41] context shifts which slows down [61:42] everything else. Now you're getting a [61:44] lot less work per unit time out of the [61:46] brains that are left. So guess what? If [61:48] you want to produce the same amount of [61:49] output you had before when all the [61:50] support staff was there, you got to hire [61:51] a lot more people [61:54] um and pay them a lot more salaries and [61:56] you end up spending more money anyways. [61:59] So it was a complete myopic view a [62:02] completely myopic view of productivity. [62:04] We we basically had this idea that if [62:08] you can do something a support staff [62:09] used to do on a computer that was free [62:12] now that would just automatically happen [62:13] and we could fire that support staff. [62:15] Not the way it worked. That takes time [62:16] and it takes context. So I think that is [62:18] at the core of the productivity paradox [62:19] in the digital age is we did not think [62:22] about how the human brains that produce [62:24] value actually work. I think it's been a [62:25] it's been a massive mistake that has [62:27] left quite a lot of economic growth and [62:28] human flourishing on the table. [62:31] I used to write a lot about that. It [62:33] kind of bores people. It turns out I'm [62:36] very interested in it. [62:38] It turns out it's not productivity [62:40] theories is not uh it's not what the [62:42] general public general public wants to [62:44] know what books to read. But anyways I [62:45] like that stuff. All right. What else do [62:46] we got? Uh, here we go. [62:48] >> Hey there, Cal. Thanks so much for your [62:50] thought leadership around AI. In both my [62:54] personal and professional worlds, I feel [62:56] exasperated by how many people seem to [62:59] be ignoring the very real costs of AI. [63:03] Loss of careers, not entire industries. [63:05] We're seeing that already. Diminishment [63:07] of skill development related to [63:09] everything from evaluation to [63:11] prioritization. concerns about [63:13] intellectual property, not to mention [63:15] the environmental impacts. I could go [63:17] on, but here's my question. What is your [63:20] suggested two to three sentence response [63:24] that would bring forward these very real [63:26] concerns about AI without coming across [63:28] the way that I think I come across as an [63:31] ignorant or cranky or both middle-aged [63:34] lite? Thanks. [63:37] I think with AI, here's what's [63:38] important, and this actually might put [63:39] me on the the opposite side of you for [63:41] some things as well, but I just want to [63:43] tell you the way I think about this. I I [63:45] think it's important that we do not [63:46] react to stories about what AI could do. [63:50] We there there's enough we have to deal [63:52] with with the real world and real things [63:54] that exist right now with technology [63:56] that we should be evidence-based [63:58] in the things that we're complaining [64:00] about that we should keep our for the [64:02] most part our energy focused on here is [64:05] an actual thing that's happening that's [64:08] bad. Here's why I think it's bad and [64:10] here's what I think we need to do to try [64:12] to stop this from happening or reduce [64:14] it. [64:16] Too many of the AI concerns are concerns [64:19] about stories about what AI might do. [64:21] And I think that's what's muddying the [64:22] water. And then the things that are [64:23] actually happening right now that we [64:24] need to be concerned about get mixed up [64:26] with the stories. And then if you're [64:28] just someone, the average person, you're [64:29] like, well, god, you're comp you're [64:31] complaining about everything. AI is [64:32] going to do all the things. It's going [64:34] to be it's going to be the Terminator. [64:35] It's going to take all my jobs. It's [64:37] going to get rid of homework. It's going [64:38] to be the end of movies and books. And [64:41] it there it's all these things. Like it [64:43] it sounds so dramatic that eventually [64:45] when you get to the real thing, we don't [64:48] have a the power capacity in our grid [64:50] for these data centers. Well, what who's [64:52] whose information is powering these [64:54] things that exist right now? And why is [64:55] that fair that you know a couple hundred [64:59] shareholders can reap all this value [65:00] from like hundreds of thousands of [65:02] authors or these things that are [65:03] happening right now? [65:04] What really happens when we allow, you [65:07] know, really online people to have uh [65:10] conversations with similacrims of [65:12] people? Why why do we think this is why [65:14] are we letting you off the hook? The [65:16] people that are uh setting up [65:18] conversational sessions that are leading [65:19] people to suicide right now. Why are we [65:21] letting you off the hook? There's all [65:22] these real issues. And the key to [65:24] actually, I think, taking action is [65:26] focus on the real. [65:28] I think a lot of the storytelling [65:30] reaction is actually coming from people [65:33] who are happy to smoke screen to real. I [65:36] mean, just look at the major AI company [65:39] leaders over the last year and a half [65:41] and the type of things they talk about [65:42] and are afraid of. It's always these [65:45] like fairy tale fears of half a white [65:48] collar jobs going away, uh, super [65:50] intelligence wiping out humanity because [65:53] it takes your eye once you you've thrown [65:55] all of this into the mixer. Who's paying [65:57] attention to the power usage of the new [65:59] uh data center? Who's paying attention [66:01] to the psychotic breaks induced by [66:04] introducing simulac people into [66:06] conversation? All these type of things. [66:08] So focus on the things that are [66:09] happening now. And there's so much [66:11] happening now with AI and these other [66:12] technologies. We can look at short form [66:14] video technologies. These are causing [66:15] harms right now. Look at John Height's [66:17] book. Why was that so successful? It [66:19] wasn't stories. I worry that phones one [66:22] day are going to make us dumber. It was [66:23] here is what's happening now to this [66:25] group of people with this technology and [66:26] it's it's driving up self harm and it's [66:29] driving down resilience and we can see [66:30] it in the data and we it's hurting these [66:33] kids now. Let's stop hurting these kids [66:34] now. That's a compelling argument. When [66:37] you're instead like you know Eleazar [66:39] Udowski like we need to talk about what [66:42] type of electronic net will do the best [66:44] job of catching the Terminator robots [66:46] when they come. You're in fantasy land [66:48] talking about fairy tales and it takes [66:50] the eye off the prize. So don't get [66:52] caught up in things that aren't actually [66:53] happening now, even if the story seems [66:55] compelling. So don't get caught up in [66:56] all the jobs are being replaced. That's [66:58] not happening now. Don't get caught up [67:00] in uh super intelligence things taking [67:02] over. That's not happening now. That's [67:04] not really possible. [67:06] Focus on the actual harms and saying I [67:08] want to fix this thing that's happening [67:11] right now. This is bad. How do we stop [67:13] this bad thing? I think that's the right [67:15] way to talk about it. [67:17] >> All right. How what are we at here? [67:19] >> We have one more. One more. All right. [67:21] Um, let's hear it. [67:24] >> Hey, Cal. A lot of people love the idea [67:28] of deep work, but they're not able to [67:30] pursue it because they don't know where [67:32] to start, and they feel like if they [67:35] stop all their distractions that are [67:37] keeping them comfortable, they won't [67:39] know what to do. So, the result is they [67:43] live a life of like Tim Ferris says, [67:46] unhappiness instead of uncertainty. [67:49] What advice would you have for someone [67:51] who's really distracted [67:54] but wants to start deep work but has no [67:57] idea where to start and what to do. [68:01] >> All right, this is a a great question to [68:03] end on because I think it's a [68:04] fundamental question. This is why the [68:06] notion of the deep life has become I [68:10] think so important. Here's the way I [68:12] think about this. One way to think about [68:14] this, my book, Deep Work, I think one of [68:16] the reasons why that book was popular [68:19] is there was an issue that people were [68:21] recognizing in the workplace, which was [68:23] we're really pretty distracted. Like I'm [68:26] on email all the time and we're running [68:28] back and forth and I have all these [68:29] projects and it seems very frenetic in [68:30] work. This doesn't seem great, right? [68:34] Like I'm I'm exhausted all the time and [68:35] what am I really doing? And what Deep [68:37] Work came in and said, that book came in [68:39] and said, "Yeah, that this is a problem, [68:40] but what I what I want to give you is a [68:42] bigger better offer." Deep work as an [68:44] alternative to shallow work that's [68:45] dominating your your day right now. The [68:48] bigger better offer was more compelling. [68:50] Oh, I see what I could be spending my [68:51] this instead of being on email all day, [68:53] I could be producing something really [68:54] hard. Oh, I want to do that. Bigger [68:55] better offer one out. In our current [68:58] world with uh smartphone distraction [69:02] is constantly looking at this thing to [69:03] pacify yourself. you need a bigger, [69:06] better offer. That's what we're missing. [69:08] We're talking about be worried about Tik [69:10] Tok. Be worried about Meta Vibes and [69:12] Sora. Be worried about spending all your [69:13] time yelling at people on X and [69:15] mindlessly scrolling through uh auto [69:17] recommendations on YouTube. What we're [69:18] missing in that discussion [69:21] is the bigger better offer of what you [69:22] should do next. Because you are [69:24] absolutely right. Without that bigger [69:25] better offer, people say, "I'll take the [69:27] devil I know because it's kind of fun [69:29] than the devil I don't which is staring [69:31] into the pit of existential despair." [69:32] That's exactly what was happening in the [69:34] workplace. People are like, "Yeah, we do [69:36] send a lot of emails, but like what am I [69:38] supposed to do instead? [69:40] Just like sit here?" They needed a [69:42] bigger, better offer. This is where the [69:44] deep work enters the picture. I don't [69:46] think we can deal with the issues of [69:47] phones and non-professional technology [69:49] use without giving people a vision of [69:51] how to make their life so interesting [69:52] and intentional, autonomous, and meaning [69:54] producing that the idea of looking at [69:56] YouTube shorts all day is nonsensical to [69:59] them. They're like, "Why would I do [70:01] that? I have this other stuff that's so [70:03] much more important. [70:04] And so I say this in part to point out a [70:06] problem in our current discussion about [70:08] technology and meaning. I say this in [70:10] part as a way to have empathy. If you're [70:13] struggling to put down your phone like [70:14] you're talking about with your friends, [70:17] this is not some moral flaw you have. [70:19] This is not a lack of will or [70:21] discipline. It is probably a really [70:24] rational calculus on the on the uh part [70:27] of your mind as saying we don't have [70:29] anything else to go to. So I'd rather be [70:32] here. It's it's it's I'd rather be here [70:34] than staring into the pit. Just like [70:37] late 19th century in the leadup to [70:39] prohibition. Well, I'd rather be at the [70:42] bar with like my friends, like something [70:43] to do than just be, you know, at the old [70:46] turf house, you know, pioneer house just [70:48] depressed, right? You have to have a [70:50] bigger, better offer. So, that's where [70:51] the deep life comes in. Now, I do have [70:52] this whole book, but it's going to be a [70:53] year. Uh, so let's like get to some key [70:56] principles right away. Like what you [70:57] need to do is you need to fix a a [71:00] contingent vision of your ideal [71:02] lifestyle. I say contingent so you don't [71:03] feel like you have to get this right [71:05] from day one. Good enough for now. What [71:08] do I want my daily life to actually be [71:11] like? This has to cover multiple areas. [71:13] On the show, we often call these [71:14] buckets. You can't just focus on your [71:16] job. You can't just focus on a single [71:18] hobby. You got to cover all of the areas [71:20] of your life and be able to describe in [71:22] each what you want that part of your [71:23] life to be like. Two, these descriptions [71:25] can't be concrete. I want to have this [71:28] job and live in this town. That's not a [71:30] lifestyle vision. That's a goals. So, [71:33] describe what you want in each of these [71:35] different areas in terms of first-person [71:36] declarative properties. I live in a a [71:40] city that's high energy. My job is one [71:43] in which um I can be done with work by [71:47] five and it's not a big deal, right? [71:49] Like it's not dominating my time. You're [71:50] describing the properties of the [71:51] different areas of your life. That's [71:52] your lifestyle vision. buckets plus [71:54] properties. [71:55] Now, the whole goal is how do I try to [71:57] get closer to those visions in each of [71:59] these buckets given the particular [72:02] obstacles I face and the particular [72:03] opportunities I have. I'm not going to [72:04] start from scratch, but I want to [72:07] navigate around specific obstacles. Oh, [72:09] living in this city makes all these [72:10] things really hard. Well, how do I get [72:12] out of this city? Oh god, if I could do [72:13] this, this, this, and this, we could [72:14] move and that's going to make these [72:15] other things better. Or I am a computer [72:18] programmer. How can I use that? That [72:19] that's a valuable skill. Where could I [72:21] go with that in a way that's going to [72:22] let me get closer to bucket A, B, and C? [72:25] And then this becomes the main wheel [72:28] cyclical process of lifestyle ccentric [72:31] planning. How do I move closer to these [72:33] uh visions and these buckets? Repeat, [72:35] repeat, repeat. And I suggest going [72:36] bucket by bucket. Let's spend a month [72:38] just working on the constitution bucket, [72:40] the bucket about our physical health. [72:41] Let's do some one-time goals and get in [72:43] place some new practices and feel good [72:44] about that. Okay, now let's move on to [72:45] the next bucket. All [72:47] right, now we're dealing with a craft or [72:49] like my job. Not going to solve it all [72:51] now, but I have this lifestyle vision [72:52] for what what I want these properties I [72:54] want in my job. I want to spend a month [72:56] or two make getting closer to that. [72:57] Finishing some project that builds up a [72:59] career capital store that might be [73:00] useful in the future. Changing up my [73:02] practices so that I'm not so distracted [73:04] and my work has less of a footprint on [73:05] my life. And you move through each of [73:07] your buckets and repeat and repeat. And [73:08] at least once a year on your birthday, [73:10] go back and make sure those properties [73:11] are right. That is the rhythm for [73:12] building a deep life. It's not done with [73:14] one radical change. It's not something [73:15] that's going to happen in two weeks, but [73:17] it it's going to be a creative like it's [73:20] going to get better as you move closer [73:21] to that ideal lifestyle vision. You're [73:22] going to feel more self-efficacious, [73:24] meaning you feel like you have the [73:25] ability to actually uh produce positive [73:27] change in your life. You're going to [73:28] feel more autonomous. [73:30] And now the distraction merchants are [73:32] going to seem more superolous. [73:34] And now suddenly what used to be your [73:36] lifeline, your pacifier is going to seem [73:39] sort of trit, going to seem kind of [73:41] embarrassing. You've got stuff you got [73:43] to do. You don't need to be looking at a [73:46] video of Abraham Lincoln, you know, [73:48] break dancing. I got real stuff I got to [73:50] do. I'm imshed in a real community that [73:53] I'm taking a leadership role in. I don't [73:55] care about the fight happening on [73:57] Twitter about some nonsense. Right? This [73:59] is the type of thing that begins to [74:02] happen as you begin the cycle of moving [74:04] closer to your deep life. So, I want to [74:05] end on this question because I think as [74:07] we enter the new year, the week after [74:10] you hear this episode, think about the [74:13] deep life as your bigger better offer [74:14] for all this other stuff that's [74:15] occupying your time. And suddenly that [74:18] challenge of of getting away from the [74:20] sort of Zuckerbergs and Altman's of the [74:22] world becomes a lot less [74:24] uh something that is scary or seeming [74:26] impossible and something that will [74:27] instead begin to seem inevitable. All [74:30] right, Jesse. Um, [74:33] that wraps us, right? That's our [74:34] questions. [74:34] >> That's our questions. [74:35] >> Let's get Can we get one more sleigh [74:37] bells? I think Santa's coming. [74:40] Deliver some coal, the Mark Zuckerberg. [74:44] And uh thank you for listening. I guess [74:45] I guess our next episode will be right [74:47] before the new year. So, we got another [74:49] episode. I think we're going to play a [74:50] classic episode you'll like. And then we [74:51] got some cool stuff all queued up in the [74:53] new year. So, we got a lot coming up in [74:54] the deep questions world. So, we will [74:56] see you soon. Have a good holidays. [74:57] Until then, as always, stay deep. Hey, [75:01] if you liked our discussion of books [75:03] that will help you improve your life, I [75:05] think you'll also like episode 381 where [75:07] I gave advice from famous writers that [75:10] will improve your life. So, keeping up [75:12] on this literary theme for [75:13] self-improvement. Check it out. I think [75:15] you'll like it. Today, I want to give [75:17] you some powerful advice for [75:18] accomplishing exactly this goal. advice [75:21] that comes from a perhaps unexpected [75:24] source. Famous writers