Resisting Christian Supremacy with Shameless Theology Alba Onofrio TNE Podcasts

Resisting Christian Supremacy with Shameless Theology | Alba Onofrio | TNE Podcasts 🔗 **Source:** [Resisting Christian Supremacy with Shameless Theology | Alba Onofrio | TNE Podcasts](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-7zfBaUcSg&t=1096s) > [!note]+ Document Notes > tags: [liberation-theology, queer-christianity, christian-supremacy] > author: TNE Podcasts > source: YouTube > reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-7zfBaUcSg&t=1096s > date created: 2024-12-19 16:45 > > # 🏷️ Title: Resisting Christian Supremacy with Shameless Theology >  ## 🧰 Action Inbox - [H1] Explore liberation theology resources beyond white evangelical frameworks — accessible theology needed for grassroots #liberation-theology - [H2] Create safe spiritual spaces for marginalized communities — divinity training demonstrates possibilities #community-building - [H3] Challenge binary thinking inherited from Christian supremacy — both/and approaches required #decolonization ## 🧭 Table of Contents - [📝 Summary](#-summary) - [📖 Main Content](#-main-content) - [🗒️ Notes](#️-notes) - [📚 References](#-references) - [🗣️ Paraphrase](#️-paraphrase) - [📰 Newsletter](#-newsletter) - [✅ Action Items](#-action-items) - [🧪 Hypotheses](#-hypotheses) - [📊 Methodology](#-methodology) - [❓ Questions](#-questions) - [🔮 Future Research](#-future-research) - [💡 Implications](#-implications) - [🧠 Learning Styles Assessment](#-learning-styles-assessment) - [📊 Accessibility Assessment](#-accessibility-assessment) - [🌍 DEIB Assessment](#-deib-assessment) - [✅ Logical Validity](#-logical-validity) - [🛡️ DARVO Analysis](#-darvo-analysis) - [🎯 Conclusion](#-conclusion) ### 🔗 References - [Soul Force](https://www.soulforce.org/) - [Vanderbilt Divinity School](https://divinity.vanderbilt.edu/) ## 📝 Summary - Reverend Alba Onofrio shares their journey from Appalachian Southern Baptist upbringing to queer liberation theology - Discusses reclaiming evangelical identity as a tool for justice rather than oppression - Explores white Christian supremacy as systemic issue requiring decolonization work - Emphasizes need for accessible theology and bridging academic work to grassroots communities - Calls for tactical frivolity and creative resistance while maintaining humanity in movement work ## 📖 Main Content Reverend Alba Onofrio, executive director of Soul Force, discusses their complex identity as a queer Appalachian Latina ex-evangelical theologian and pastor. They challenge the binary thinking inherent in Christian supremacy while advocating for reclaiming evangelical and Christian identities as birthrights for marginalized communities. The conversation explores how white Christian supremacy operates as an underlying ideology manifesting in various forms, including current Christian nationalism. Onofrio emphasizes the importance of accessible theology that bridges academic scholarship with grassroots communities, particularly through their work creating Spanish-language theological resources. They advocate for "tactical frivolity" and creative resistance while maintaining space for people on journeys of transformation. ## 🗒️ Notes #### ⏱️ [00:00](https://youtu.be/J-7zfBaUcSg?t=0) — [H1] Introduction and complex identity intersections - Key idea: Alba represents multiple intersecting identities that seem contradictory - Evidence: "queer Appalachian Latin exublic theologian and evangelical pastor and human rights activist" #### ⏱️ [02:15](https://youtu.be/J-7zfBaUcSg?t=135) — [H2] Appalachian mountain community upbringing - Key idea: Raised in insular coal mining community with distinct cultural identity - Evidence: "raised by the literal daughter of a coal miner" in "mountain Christian community" #### ⏱️ [05:30](https://youtu.be/J-7zfBaUcSg?t=330) — [H2] Reclaiming evangelical identity for liberation - Key idea: Evangelical formation creates urgency for justice work - Evidence: "I am exactly what you raised... this is the most understandable progression" #### ⏱️ [08:45](https://youtu.be/J-7zfBaUcSg?t=525) — [H1] Christianity as birthright for colonized peoples - Key idea: Marginalized communities have inheritance claim to Christianity - Evidence: "y'all came to our lands and raped our women... this is our birthright" #### ⏱️ [12:20](https://youtu.be/J-7zfBaUcSg?t=740) — [H3] First queer experience at 15 disrupts worldview - Key idea: Personal experience challenged 15 years of cultural conditioning - Evidence: "I would have told you yesterday something terrible and homophobic about this and I'm living it" #### ⏱️ [15:10](https://youtu.be/J-7zfBaUcSg?t=910) — [H2] Mountain culture supports questioning authority - Key idea: Appalachian distrust of institutions enabled theological questioning - Evidence: "we as a general group distrust institutions... let me see and feel with my own hands" #### ⏱️ [18:25](https://youtu.be/J-7zfBaUcSg?t=1105) — [H1] Divinity school reveals theological diversity - Key idea: Academic theology opened worlds beyond fundamentalist baseline - Evidence: "Bible 101 is being taught by a Jewish man... why have I never heard of any of this?" #### ⏱️ [22:40](https://youtu.be/J-7zfBaUcSg?t=1360) — [H2] Academic theology remains inaccessible to masses - Key idea: Advanced theological concepts haven't reached grassroots communities - Evidence: "basic for people with advanced degrees... doesn't exist in their world" #### ⏱️ [26:15](https://youtu.be/J-7zfBaUcSg?t=1575) — [H1] Theological Sinvergüenza podcast bridges language gap - Key idea: Spanish-language theology counters religious right monopoly - Evidence: "entire monopoly by the extreme right on all religious media" #### ⏱️ [30:50](https://youtu.be/J-7zfBaUcSg?t=1850) — [H1] White Christian supremacy as root ideology - Key idea: Christian nationalism is symptom of deeper structural problem - Evidence: "current whack-a-mole version of an underlying ideology which we call white Christian supremacy" #### ⏱️ [35:20](https://youtu.be/J-7zfBaUcSg?t=2120) — [H2] Cycle of collapse and reconstruction opportunity - Key idea: Current moment offers choice between repeating patterns or transformation - Evidence: "choice of whether we're going to go back into the same cycle... or are we going to be strong enough" #### ⏱️ [40:30](https://youtu.be/J-7zfBaUcSg?t=2430) — [H1] Rejecting binary thinking in progressive movements - Key idea: Left and right both fall into Christian supremacy's either/or logic - Evidence: "Christian supremacy teaches us to think in binaries... same binary logic" #### ⏱️ [45:15](https://youtu.be/J-7zfBaUcSg?t=2715) — [H2] Building irresistible movements through tactical frivolity - Key idea: Creative resistance attracts people rather than repelling them - Evidence: "make the movement irresistible... tactical frivolity... salsa classes in front of ICE detention center" #### ⏱️ [48:40](https://youtu.be/J-7zfBaUcSg?t=2920) — [H1] Soul Force's 30-year mission at intersections - Key idea: Organization works at crossroads of faith, sexuality, and supremacy - Evidence: "work at the intersections of faith, gender, sexuality, and white Christian supremacy" ## 📚 References - [Soul Force](https://www.soulforce.org/) - [Vanderbilt Divinity School](https://divinity.vanderbilt.edu/) - [Theological Sinvergüenza Podcast](https://www.soulforce.org/podcast/) ## 🗣️ Paraphrase - Alba reclaims evangelical identity as inheritance from colonization, using formation for liberation rather than oppression - White Christian supremacy operates as foundational ideology underlying various manifestations like Christian nationalism - Academic theology must become accessible to grassroots communities who still face basic misconceptions about biblical interpretation ## 📰 Newsletter **Reclaiming Faith for Liberation** Rev. Alba Onofrio's powerful conversation reminds us that our spiritual inheritances can be reclaimed and redirected toward justice. Rather than abandoning evangelical formation, they demonstrate how those very tools - urgency, moral clarity, prophetic voice - can serve liberation. Their work creating accessible Spanish-language theology through "Theological Sinvergüenza" shows how academic insights must reach communities still harmed by basic biblical misinterpretations. The reminder that Sodom and Gomorrah isn't about homosexuality may be elementary in seminaries, but it's still life-or-death information for LGBTQ+ people worldwide. Key takeaway: We need both scholarly depth and grassroots accessibility, creative resistance and patient accompaniment of people on journeys. Resources: [Soul Force](https://www.soulforce.org/), [Theological Sinvergüenza](https://www.soulforce.org/podcast/) ## ✅ Action Items #### Community - Translation: Create multilingual theological resources addressing biblical misinterpretations - Safe spaces: Develop inclusive spiritual communities for marginalized identities - Storytelling: Amplify diverse voices reclaiming faith traditions for liberation #### WordPress - Accessibility: Ensure theological content reaches communities beyond academic circles - Multilingual: Support Spanish and other language theological content platforms - Community: Foster online spaces for faith-based justice conversations ## 🧪 Hypotheses - Accessible liberation theology reduces internalized oppression in marginalized religious communities - Creative resistance tactics build broader coalitions than confrontational approaches alone - Reclaiming rather than rejecting religious identity provides stronger foundation for sustained activism - Spanish-language theological content counters religious right's media dominance in Latino communities ### 📊 Methodology - Content analysis of theological resource accessibility and community reach - Surveys measuring internalized oppression before/after exposure to liberation theology - Comparative study of confrontational vs. invitational movement tactics ### ❓ Questions - How can academic theology become truly accessible without losing analytical rigor? - What role does creative resistance play in building sustainable justice movements? - How do colonized communities navigate reclaiming vs. rejecting imposed religious traditions? ### 🔮 Future Research - Longitudinal study of Spanish-language theological media's impact on LGBTQ+ acceptance - Cross-cultural analysis of indigenous theology emerging from colonized contexts - Effectiveness research on "tactical frivolity" as organizing strategy ### 💡 Implications - Practice: Theological education must prioritize accessibility alongside academic rigor - Policy: Religious freedom arguments can be reclaimed for marginalized community protection - Security: Understanding Christian supremacy as root ideology helps predict various manifestations - Education: Biblical literacy becomes justice issue when misinterpretations fuel oppression - Funding: Grassroots theological education deserves support as community healing work ### 🧠 Learning Styles Assessment Reading level estimate: 12th grade #### 👀 Visual learners - Present: Rich metaphors (basement/house, whack-a-mole) - Improve: Infographics showing theological concept accessibility gaps #### 🔊 Aural learners - Present: Full podcast conversation available - Improve: Key quote compilations, theological concept audio summaries #### 🗣️ Verbal learners - Present: Strong storytelling, personal narrative, analogies - Improve: Glossary of liberation theology terms #### 🧩 Kinesthetic learners - Present: Discussion of creative resistance tactics - Improve: Workshop guides for theological discussions, role-playing exercises #### 🧠 Logical learners - Present: Clear cause-effect analysis of supremacy systems - Improve: Decision trees for navigating faith deconstruction #### 🧑‍🤝‍🧑 Social learners - Present: Community organizing emphasis, relational approach - Improve: Discussion guides for faith community conversations #### 🧘‍♀️ Solitary learners - Present: Personal reflection on identity intersections - Improve: Journaling prompts for faith journey reflection #### 🌿 Naturalistic learners - Present: Land-based identity connections, ancestral wisdom - Improve: Creation-centered theology resources ### 📊 Accessibility Assessment #### Screen reader semantics - Present: Clear heading structure, descriptive content - Improve: Alt text for theological concept diagrams #### Keyboard navigation - Present: Standard podcast accessibility - Improve: Transcript navigation by topic #### Contrast and readability - Present: Standard text meets contrast requirements - Improve: High-contrast version for theological text study #### Text resizing and reflow - Present: Responsive design supports zoom - Improve: Theological content optimized for mobile study #### Media and captions - Present: Full transcript available - Improve: Timestamped captions with theological term highlighting #### Forms and interactions - Present: Basic accessibility for discussion features - Improve: Screen reader optimized comment systems ### 🌍 DEIB Assessment #### Cultural breadth - Present: Appalachian, Latina, LGBTQ+ perspectives centered - Improve: Additional indigenous and global South theological voices #### Inclusive language - Present: Respectful terminology for marginalized communities - Improve: Trauma-informed language around religious harm #### Neurodiversity support - Present: Clear structure with timestamped sections - Improve: Content warnings for religious trauma discussions #### Representation - Present: Marginalized voices centered as theological authorities - Improve: Visual representation in promotional materials #### Psychological safety - Present: Affirming approach to religious questioning - Improve: Resource lists for faith community conflicts ### ✅ Logical Validity #### Strong reasoning - Deductive strength: Clear syllogisms about Christian supremacy's manifestations - Inductive strength: Personal experience generalized to broader community patterns - Causal reasoning: Connects colonization to contemporary Christian nationalism - Analogical strength: Basement/house metaphor effectively illustrates theological discovery #### Fallacies - Ad hominem: Minimal, focuses on systems rather than personal attacks - False dichotomy: Explicitly challenges binary thinking throughout #### Tone of voice - Overall tone: Prophetic yet pastoral, combining righteous anger with compassionate invitation ### 🛡️ DARVO Analysis - Deny: No evidence of denial tactics - Attack: Critiques systems and ideologies rather than attacking individuals - Reverse victim/offender: No reversal patterns observed - Emotional cues: Appropriate passion for justice without manipulation ## 🎯 Conclusion Reverend Alba Onofrio demonstrates how marginalized communities can reclaim religious traditions as tools for liberation rather than weapons of oppression. Their emphasis on accessible theology, creative resistance, and patient accompaniment of people on journeys offers a compelling model for faith-based justice work. The key insight is that we need both scholarly rigor and grassroots accessibility, both prophetic urgency and pastoral patience, to build movements capable of transforming rather than merely reacting to systems of supremacy. ## 🧱 Refactor Appendix ### 📚 Literature Split Pad ### [H1] Liberation theology requires grassroots accessibility > [!quote] Resisting Christian Supremacy with Shameless Theology by Alba Onofrio via TNE Podcasts. Published 2024. Accessed 2024-12-19. > "I don't need to say anything new... just take these things that are totally inaccessible and try to bring them down to grassroots." Academic theology must serve communities harmed by biblical misinterpretations. [view highlight](https://youtu.be/J-7zfBaUcSg?t=1360) #liberation-theology #accessibility ID:rw_alba_01 ### [H2] Christian supremacy operates through binary thinking > [!quote] Resisting Christian Supremacy with Shameless Theology > "Christian supremacy teaches us to think in binaries... either this or that." Root ideology manifests through false either/or choices across political spectrum. [view highlight](https://youtu.be/J-7zfBaUcSg?t=2430) #christian-supremacy ID:rw_alba_ --- ## Full Transcript [00:00] All [00:08] >> [music] [00:15] [music] [00:22] [music] [00:27] >> right. Uh, Reverend Alba also could be [00:30] addressed as Reverend Sex. We can use [00:32] either one of those. You are um um a [00:35] queer Appalachian Latin exublic [00:37] theologian and evangelical pastor and [00:39] human rights activist. That's a lot of [00:41] things. [laughter] Some of which feel [00:42] kind of contradictory. I'm not going to [00:44] lie. I'm so excited to kind of dig in. [00:47] Thank you for joining me on the New [00:48] Evangelicals podcast. Great to have you. [00:51] >> I am delighted to be here. Thank you for [00:53] the invitation. [00:54] >> For sure. I mean I I am curious. Um when [00:57] you say when you say Appalachian, do you [00:59] mean like you grew up in Appalachia? [01:01] >> Yes. I was raised by the literal [01:04] daughter of a coal miner. So coal [01:06] miner's daughter. I was raised by my [01:08] great-grandmother and we lived in a [01:10] little um mountain Christian community [01:14] on the outskirts of Asheville, North [01:16] Carolina. But [01:17] >> not the Asheville that's like the [01:18] progressives where the northerners go in [01:21] the winter and the snowbirds. No, this [01:23] is it's not those people. It's the [01:26] mountain folk that's been there for [01:27] eight or nine generations that have [01:29] their own very insulated communities. I [01:32] didn't even know I'm queer. I had no [01:34] idea that we had had a lesbian mayor. [01:36] actually went to school with her [01:37] daughter, but I had no idea because my [01:39] community was so insular and so [01:42] church-based that I didn't I had no idea [01:46] that I lived in this progressive or [01:48] adjacent to this progressive world [01:50] because I was raised in church schools. [01:53] I we lived across the street from the [01:55] church. The pastor's wife was my [01:56] granny's best friend. And of course, I [01:59] was raised by somebody who uh grew up in [02:02] the 20s. So I also was living like at [02:06] her sister's house. We heated with coal, [02:08] you know, we canned, we had a garden. [02:10] Like I really had a very Appalachin [02:13] mountain poor white mountain folk coal [02:15] miner kind of upbringing. Um considering [02:19] that I'm brown and Latina and all the [02:21] things. It was it's a makes for a very [02:23] interesting internal mix I will say. [02:25] [laughter] No, I mean it it on my end it [02:27] really does because you have a little [02:28] bit of like a southern twang but then [02:30] you kind of you know change the accent a [02:31] little bit when you talk about you know [02:33] being Latina and then you talk about [02:35] just your upbringing being [laughter] [02:36] queer. It's like, wow, there's so many [02:38] intersections here and it's very rare [02:40] that that that you meet someone with [02:42] like that kind of acumen, right? I am [02:44] curious for you then. I mean, wow, [02:46] there's just wow. I feel that like like [02:48] we could pull so many threads. I I'm [02:50] curious for you, [02:52] >> you know, the journey. I'm not sure [02:54] about you. I'll put it this way. As I [02:56] gotten older, I realized that parts of [02:57] my upbringing were like not as normal as [02:59] I thought that they were, right? So, I'm [03:01] sure you've had that moment, too. You're [03:02] like, "Wow, this is not like the the [03:03] normal upbringing." When did you realize [03:06] that? And and then did you shift views [03:08] over time because you met a different [03:10] you moved away or like what was the [03:12] evolution of Reverend Alba like? I'm so [03:14] curious. [03:16] >> Yeah. Well, uh I was raised Southern [03:19] Baptist and like I said in this very [03:21] insular kind of mountain community. [03:24] >> I I love them. I'm grateful. I feel like [03:27] you know that's why I identify as [03:28] evangelical. I'm like, I I am exactly [03:31] what you raised. And you may not have [03:33] intended that, [03:35] >> but starting from way back when your [03:37] forefathers raped our foremothers, this [03:40] is the for me the most understandable [03:43] progression of what you were going to [03:45] get eventually, right? And so I claim it [03:48] and identify as it a lot of things that [03:50] I was taught I hold on to tightly. I'm [03:53] still evangelical because that's what [03:55] makes me an activist. I feel like this [03:56] is urgent. This is life or death and [03:58] there is a right and there is a wrong [04:00] and you need to understand the gospel of [04:02] what is coming down and what is true and [04:04] what is right and therefore you need to [04:06] make a decision between that which is [04:08] evil white Christian supremacy and that [04:10] which is good which is liberation [04:14] justice all the words that we use in the [04:15] activist human rights field but I hold [04:18] on to those values very very tightly and [04:21] I feel like I am like that charismatic [04:23] preacher who knew what was right and [04:25] knew what was wrong and that help you [04:27] find the way to a path that led to God. [04:30] And I feel very much aligned with that. [04:32] So I still identify that way. Um I just [04:35] learned a lot about the real world and [04:36] the truth and God as I understand them [04:39] and and so you know the horizon changed [04:42] a little bit. um the public that I was [04:45] speaking into and from changed, but I [04:48] have a lot of those evangelical roots [04:50] that just hang on tight and make me the [04:53] very obnoxious, provocator kind of [04:56] pastor that I am. So, I I'm grateful God [04:59] formed me in that community for a reason [05:02] and I feel like they taught me the good [05:03] book and I'm finally learning what's [05:06] good about it. So, [laughter] [05:07] [gasps] [05:08] >> yes. So, to get back to the question [05:09] about [05:10] >> on that part because I think that is [05:12] important. We'll come back to your rest [05:13] of your stories. I I I want to pause for [05:15] one second. I really like that as [05:18] someone who started an org by accident [05:20] called the New Evangelicals, I have [05:21] found myself saying similar things in my [05:24] own language. Like I say, look, you guys [05:25] radicalized me to be who I am today. [05:27] [laughter] Like you taught me that [05:29] faithful radical allegiance to the way [05:31] of Jesus matters more than anything. And [05:34] it would cost me and I'm doing exactly [05:37] what you raised me to be. So I just want [05:39] to say I love what you said, solidarity [05:41] [laughter] on that. And there's [05:42] something kind of I'm not sure if the [05:44] word is magical or spiritual maybe I [05:46] would say, but there's something special [05:47] about saying look like I'm not going to [05:49] say this was all bad. There's actually [05:51] some foundational values that you taught [05:53] me, but you had it aimed at the wrong [05:55] people for the wrong reason and you [05:57] can't take my evangelical heritage away [06:00] from me. I'm going to reclaim it and use [06:02] it as a tool of liberation instead of a [06:04] weapon of oppression. So, I really agree [06:05] with you there. I think that that that's [06:07] really wonderful. And I would even go so [06:10] far as to say to those of us who are [06:12] listening, it's really important, [06:15] especially as LGBT people or feminists [06:18] or divorcees or whoever you are, that [06:20] you've been told that you're not allowed [06:22] to be a Christian, quote unquote, or a [06:25] person of faith that this isn't for you. [06:27] A lot of our trans siblings have that [06:29] experience. M [06:30] >> um I have many experiences with folks [06:33] both in East Africa and in Latin America [06:35] of trans women telling me that they get [06:37] rocks thrown at them or rocks thrown at [06:39] their house if people hear them [06:40] listening to gospel music or Christian [06:43] music because they're told it's not for [06:45] them. So to those kinds of folks who [06:47] have that wound, I want to be really [06:49] clear that we are all under a system of [06:52] white Christian supremacy. We were all [06:54] raised with a morality that's based in [06:57] Christianity regardless of your faith or [06:59] not faith in Christianity or anything [07:02] else. And because of that, it is our [07:04] inheritance to claim Christianity [07:07] because this is how we were taught to [07:09] name God and name the divine and [07:11] understand morality. So, nobody gets to [07:14] take that away from you just because you [07:15] don't fit into their definition of what [07:17] Christian is. And I feel like y'all came [07:20] to our lands and raped our women and [07:22] enslaved our people and therefore [07:25] this is our birthright and it is y'all [07:29] who have to make space for us and not [07:31] the other way around. So I feel that way [07:33] about evangelical. I feel that way about [07:34] Christian. It doesn't mean that you have [07:36] to bow down to a white blue-eyed Jesus [07:38] as your Lord and Savior. You get the [07:40] right to claim that because that was [07:42] what formed you and how the language you [07:44] were given. So why should we have to [07:46] move outside of our native language to [07:48] talk about God just to accommodate other [07:50] people's biased homophobic orientations [07:54] of what they think God is that I could [07:56] have a great conversation about how God [07:58] is not on the other side. [07:59] >> I love that though that I no notes [08:02] fantastic I co-sign that statement. So [08:04] let's get back to your story then. So [08:06] what was it like kind of evolving from [08:08] growing up in Appalachia to who you are [08:11] today? [08:12] Yeah. I think for many of us, we don't [08:14] realize what is true about who we are [08:18] until we're faced with something [08:20] different, right? So, I didn't know [08:22] Appalachin was an I didn't even know [08:24] Southern was an identity because this is [08:26] before the internet. I know I was old, [08:28] but I just I just didn't know. I was [08:31] pretty sure because church told me that [08:32] California was the seat of all evil and [08:35] was going to fall into the ocean at any [08:36] moment when God got around to it. Right. [08:38] And apart from that, I was just in my [08:42] own little world and I didn't realize [08:44] things like we were poor. Like I didn't [08:47] know because we ate out of the garden. [08:49] We shared food among community. It [08:52] wasn't until I was a junior in high [08:53] school that I even learned that I had [08:54] qualified for free lunch my entire life [08:57] but had never but we were a proud people [08:59] and I always had food. And so, you know, [09:02] it's just that kind of thing that you [09:03] don't really realize, but forms deeply [09:05] about your values, at least for me, [09:07] about my values about money and [09:09] community and how how you spend time and [09:12] energy. And um the same thing was true [09:14] about being southern. I learned southern [09:16] was a thing when I left the south. And [09:18] then I learned Appalachin or mountain [09:20] folk was another identity that's even [09:22] very different from like the deep south [09:24] or the coastal south. So, I'm learn I've [09:26] learned a lot over time about that. And [09:28] I think the same thing is true. The [09:31] first kind of crack in that was when I [09:33] was 15. I kissed a girl for the first [09:36] time. She and I both went to the same [09:39] church. Like we we created our whole own [09:42] world, but I had never met anybody. I [09:44] was pretty sure homosexuals like had [09:46] like horns that were red coming out of [09:49] their head and had a little tail. Like I [09:52] was really sure that it was such a [09:53] decision [09:55] >> that you just made because of addiction [09:58] of some sort or some sort of demon [10:01] possession. And it had just never been [10:03] on the table for me. Like I wasn't one [10:05] of those people who had crushes on my [10:06] teachers or my friends. Like I had never [10:08] had any of those experiences. So um that [10:11] first experience of being like I would [10:13] have told you yesterday something [10:15] terrible and homophobic about this and [10:18] I'm living it in my own body and my own [10:20] life. And that yes was so powerful that [10:23] it went against 15 years of cultural [10:26] upbringing. [10:28] >> And that started the question of like if [10:30] I feel the most alive and present and [10:34] joyful and myself in this kind of [10:37] relating and this is supposed to be evil [10:40] and I talk to God all day every day and [10:42] God doesn't have doesn't seem to be [10:44] giving me any feedback that's like this [10:46] is a bad thing, [10:47] >> right? um then what else is true that I [10:51] don't know and so that started the [10:52] questions which feel like very much come [10:55] from mountain culture because we as a [10:58] general group of body of people distrust [11:01] institutions distrust power um you know [11:05] we live into let me see and feel with my [11:08] own hands with my own eyes what's true [11:10] and right and good and really hold to [11:11] that so I feel like that actually helped [11:14] me along with being raised as an only [11:16] child adored by elders because I was [11:18] raised by somebody three generations [11:19] older than I was. So, [11:21] >> wow. [11:21] >> I just feel like a lot coconspired for [11:23] me to be willing to ask questions and [11:26] assume that my questions were valid. Um, [11:28] also because I was raised around all [11:30] women and women usually at the end of [11:32] their life. So, I had a lot of [11:35] >> empowerment in ways that other people I [11:36] feel like particularly when they're [11:38] raised girls are told to be quiet or to [11:40] be subservient. I was raised in a [11:42] community of really powerful women who [11:45] didn't take on a kind of like hottie [11:48] nature, but just were the people who got [11:50] [ __ ] done over and over again all the [11:53] time, including me and my [11:54] great-grandmother who was 70 years old [11:56] when she took me as an 18-month-old. So, [11:58] >> wow. [11:59] >> We just come from a very sturdy stock of [12:01] mountain folk and then on the other [12:03] side, immigrants um that I wasn't raised [12:06] around until later in my in my life. But [12:09] I just feel like I was blessed in giving [12:12] and be being given these messages about [12:14] my own worth and value. And that started [12:17] the willingness to go down that path. [12:19] And then the next decade of my life [12:21] after school was started with um [12:23] supporting undocumented mostly [12:25] undocumented newly arrived immigrants [12:27] from Latin America. And that formed me [12:30] in a whole new way. Um, and then from [12:33] there, you know, Divinity School, which [12:35] was connected to my outrage at our LGBT [12:39] community and not having access to God [12:41] and having all of this intense [12:44] self-hatred that came from one way or [12:47] another, church or God or family [12:49] connected to God and religion. So, it's [12:52] been a journey of unfolding and the [12:53] older I get, uh, the more I realize I [12:56] don't know. I have a 15-year-old who [12:58] knows so much more than me in every [13:00] sense of the word and knows she knows [13:01] more than me. Um, but I find myself [13:04] being more humble as I get older around [13:06] not knowing and also being really [13:09] excited about there's still being so [13:11] much in the world that there is to learn [13:13] and know. [13:15] >> Yeah, that's really beautiful. Um, I was [13:17] a professional drummer for a lot of [13:18] years and the more I played, the more I [13:21] realized how little I knew about my [13:22] about my own instrument, right? all the [13:24] different genres of music and influences [13:26] and I understand that. Yet, it does kind [13:28] of go against the grain of a lot of what [13:30] I think you and I at some point were [13:32] taught. I'm not sure what it was like in [13:33] your context, but in mine, you know, I [13:35] was homeschooled very young and um was [13:37] just taught that these fundamentals, [13:38] these absolute truths about what happens [13:41] when we die and how we achieve salvation [13:43] and what God is like. And it was a real [13:46] um I would say crisis of uh theology for [13:49] me, not so much faith. I had no problem [13:51] believing in God in Christ, but like [13:52] what what what do I believe about this [13:54] God and about this Jesus, you know? [13:56] >> Yes. [13:57] >> It was really [13:58] >> the analogy I use a lot is it's like [14:01] growing up growing up in in the basement [14:02] of a house. You don't know what's above [14:04] ground. You're just kind of taught this [14:05] is all there is. And for one reason or [14:08] another, you eventually get the courage [14:09] or you're forced up the stairs and [14:11] you're expecting a desert wasteland [14:13] where there's a bunch of zombies to kill [14:15] and destroy. And instead you're in a [14:17] huge house, like a massive house, a [14:18] Christian thought, [laughter] like all [14:19] these different rooms that you never [14:20] knew existed. Black Liberation theology, [14:22] queer theology, the the orthnodox [14:25] church. What the heck is that? Right? [14:26] The Catholic Church, like all these [14:28] different rooms. You're like, "Whoa, [14:29] whoa, wait. Hold on. Stop." I was taught [14:31] down there, that this was all there was, [14:34] but there's so much more to explore. I'm [14:37] What was that journey like for you? [14:38] because I I know what it's like for me. [14:40] But I'm kind of curious from your [14:41] vantage point, all these different [14:42] intersections um you know of your [14:44] identity and who you are, your DNA, your [14:47] experience, all coming to a very unique [14:49] place. What was that journey like for [14:50] you? [14:51] Oh my gosh, that's such a fantastic [14:53] question because you know when I went to [14:55] divinity school, I got a call like I was [14:58] sitting in a in a church Christmas Eve [15:02] service and I was fuming to God about [15:04] how angry I was that so many of my [15:07] community didn't have access to safe [15:10] spiritual space to be a part of this [15:13] faith that we were raised in. And God in [15:16] God's most obnoxious way, as God has [15:19] want to do, is like, "You're right. [15:21] That's terrible. That's awful. There [15:24] should be a place. There should be [15:26] space. That is true." And then [15:28] inevitably the next question is, "So [15:31] what are we going to do about that, [15:32] right? Like [laughter] [15:33] I laid this on your heart for a reason. [15:36] This bothers you this much. What are you [15:37] going to do about it?" And at and this [15:40] is at 28 years old. And I was like, I [15:46] got the call in that conversation for [15:48] God to be like, just try, just try to [15:51] apply to Divinity School. And even [15:54] though I had been in social justice for [15:55] more than a decade, I had never heard [15:58] about feminist theology, black [16:00] liberation theology, Latin American [16:02] liberation, like I had never heard about [16:04] these things even though I had been in [16:06] social justice for a decade in a very [16:09] progressive town. And it was because I [16:11] was doing human rights work and direct [16:13] access and all that stuff. But I had [16:15] visited church after church after [16:17] church. And my only requirements were [16:19] for me not to be the only brown person [16:21] in the space. For it to be a little bit [16:23] racially diverse, for them to be [16:26] inclusive of my queerness and my family. [16:30] And the last thing is for them not to [16:31] beat me up every Sunday. But I wanted a [16:33] place where I could also go when I was [16:35] celebrating something that would help me [16:37] build build me up and make me able to do [16:39] the hard work that I was doing all week [16:41] long. And in the 13 years I did that [16:43] searching, I never found a space even in [16:45] a progressive city. And so when I got [16:49] that call to Divinity School, I was [16:51] like, there's no way in the world I'm [16:52] nominous. I am a mama of a toddler. I am [16:56] brown. I am a radical queer activist. [17:00] >> You know, I'm not monogamous, as you [17:02] said. Right. I'm like, I'm not I'm not [17:05] going to hide. I'm never going back in [17:06] another closet and there's no way [17:08] they're going to accept me. That was not [17:10] true. But I didn't know that there was [17:11] places. I wound up choosing Vanderbilt [17:14] uh Divinity School in Nashville, [17:16] Tennessee. And it was that process of I [17:20] was it was about God empowering me to be [17:24] brave enough to try to enter a world [17:26] where I thought there would be no allies [17:29] and I would be beginning that journey [17:31] and ending that journey in a fight. And [17:33] it was wanting spirit for our community [17:37] that badly and wanting to defend our [17:39] communities for whom God had been [17:41] weaponized that badly that I was willing [17:43] to enter hostile space to try to get [17:46] what we needed for our people to be able [17:48] to survive and thrive because I knew [17:50] that was what God wanted for our [17:52] communities as well. And then when I got [17:55] there [17:56] and like semester 1 [18:00] Bible 101 is being taught by a Jewish [18:04] man [18:06] and then my New Testament was taught by [18:08] re by Dr. AJ Lavine who was a Jewish New [18:11] Testament scholar. It was this breaking [18:15] open of like why have I never heard of [18:18] any of this before? And I spent my time [18:20] there just absorbing every possible [18:23] thing I could about theology, [18:25] interrogating the question of like what [18:27] do I have to believe about Jesus to call [18:28] myself a Christian? What all of these [18:30] things? But I've spent my life since [18:32] divinity school trying to create more [18:36] accessible spaces, theological resources [18:39] that are free on Soul Forc's website [18:41] that are trying to bridge that gap to be [18:43] like, I don't need to say anything new. [18:45] There have been biblicists and [18:46] theologians for many, many, many decades [18:50] now who have been publishing really [18:52] brilliant work to challenge us and help [18:54] us think differently about Christianity. [18:57] >> And I don't have to invent [ __ ] I can [18:59] really just take these things that are [19:01] totally inaccessible and try to bring [19:03] them down to the grassroots and the [19:05] ground level for real people who need [19:07] them. And I get really annoyed to be [19:09] totally honest with folks in the academy [19:11] who are like, uh, Sodom and Gomorrah, [19:13] it's not even about homosexuality. Can [19:15] we just move on? And now there these [19:17] very complicated theories that people [19:19] have. It's delicious as a sapioexual, as [19:23] in I get really excited about the [19:25] thinking and the thoughts and the [19:27] theories. That stuff is delicious and [19:29] wonderful. [19:30] But to poo poo on people who are trying [19:33] to get back to a conversation to just do [19:35] the basics that Sodom and Gomorrah is [19:38] not about homosexuality or Paul did not [19:41] write every word of all of those books [19:43] in the New Testament. Like it's basic [19:46] for people who were advanced degrees in [19:48] theology, whatever. But it is still not [19:51] even accessible for 99% of the [19:53] Christians and or Christian raised [19:56] people that I talked to in East Africa, [19:59] in Latin America, in Asia, like and the [20:02] US South. Like it just doesn't even [20:04] exist in their world. And so I'm like, [20:06] how dare we leave that as like [20:09] pedestrian and antiquated when it's [20:12] still impacting so many human beings [20:14] lives and still the basis for really [20:16] terrible laws like in Uganda where it's [20:18] that Sodom and Gomorra is still the [20:20] basis for the death penalty for [20:21] homosexuality. You know what I'm saying? [20:23] Like we're not done with it yet. [20:25] >> Yes. And in the American context, the [20:28] only version of that story you're given [20:30] is that it's about homosexuality. Right. [20:32] So there's a very wellunded conservative [20:34] evangelical network that's been going on [20:37] since the 70s really and moral majority [20:39] stuff, right? That are really effective [20:42] in espousing like fundamentalist [20:44] theology in really sexy ways, so to [20:46] speak, right? They they can they can put [20:48] it on social media. They can make it [20:49] seem like, "Have you ever asked this [20:51] question? Well, we have an answer." I [20:53] mean, that was one of the things that I [20:54] realized coming out of that basement was [20:56] I was under the [laughter] [20:58] I laugh saying it now, but you know, I [21:00] was under the impression that like if if [21:02] I was under the impression that Francis [21:05] Chan was the more, you know, like [21:07] progressive moderate uh evangelical [21:09] thinker and like Matt Schindler was more [21:10] conservative. And so if Francis Chan [21:12] came to the conclusion that hell is [21:14] eternal, well, it must be true because [21:16] [laughter] Francis if anyone would think [21:18] the opposite be Francis Chan, right? And [21:19] I say that for all the insiders to say [21:22] like Francis Chan is still a product of [21:23] the white evangelical machine. Of course [21:26] he'll have that view. But that that was [21:28] all I knew. Like to me Francis Chan was [21:30] like in the corner of like the left-wing [21:32] version of Christianity which is you [21:34] know quite comical to say now. So you're [21:37] absolutely right in what you're saying [21:39] because and I've had a lot of I've been [21:40] very fortunate [21:42] >> uh Reverend Alba to to talk to a lot of [21:44] amazing biblical scholars. everyone from [21:46] Bartman to Jennifer Bird to Angela [21:49] Parker um do Dr. Adam Clark who was [21:52] mentored by James Con himself and [21:53] they've been really gracious coming on [21:55] and kind of explaining on a very lay [21:57] level things that that that that they've [21:58] probably don't even think about anymore, [22:00] right? They just kind of come out. But [22:01] for folks like me and the audience, for [22:03] you at one point, it's like, wait, are [22:05] you're telling me [22:07] >> that like I can renegotiate some of [22:10] these texts and stories and that like [22:11] what's going on behind the scenes isn't [22:14] close to what I was told at all about [22:17] them. And I was sold this picture. this [22:19] was like God's absolute word and if I [22:21] went against this teaching I wasn't a [22:23] Christian. But that's not true. That is [22:25] for someone who has been and I use the [22:27] term not in a pjorative way but frankly [22:30] just brainwashed right for someone who's [22:32] been brainwashed into white evangelical [22:34] nationalism. That is like the most [22:38] >> thoughtprovoking epiphany moment when [22:41] you're like wait a second my world has [22:43] been blown you know to hear that. [22:45] >> Yes. And that's why we created Theologia [22:48] Simua, which is a Spanish language [22:50] podcast. We're doing our first season in [22:52] English, so folks in the US now can [22:54] listen. And there's some amazing [22:57] theologians, scholars, activists, uh, [22:59] all theologically trained, but in [23:01] different parts of our movements and [23:03] society. But we have done now like 77 [23:06] episodes, if I had that correct, with [23:08] with queer and feminist theologians all [23:11] over the Latin American continent, [23:14] diaspora, Spanish speaking Caribbean [23:16] etc. But for that exact same reason [23:18] because in Spanish there's an entire [23:20] monopoly by the extreme right on all [23:23] religious media. And so in 2020 when we [23:25] started that platform and theo suenza [23:28] means shameless theology that translates [23:31] loosely to shameless theology. But it [23:33] really is this derogatory term suensa [23:37] that would sound if I was saying it in [23:39] southern culture. Honey, have you no [23:42] shame? As in go put on more clothes or [23:45] stop talking so much or you know that's [23:47] not what a young lady would do. Cross [23:49] your legs at the knees at the ankles, [23:51] not the knees. Like those kinds of [23:52] things. Um that's it's a word suena is [23:55] something that's labeled to mostly to [23:57] women that's mostly sexualized and told [23:59] to be for us to be put in our place kind [24:01] of thing. So we called it that because [24:04] it was this idea of trying to push back [24:06] around that that there's brilliant work [24:08] being done in academic spaces. But for [24:11] folks just everyday folks it's a life or [24:13] death kind of conversation whether or [24:15] not you think God hates you. Literally [24:17] how you see everything in your life [24:20] changes if everything that happens as a [24:23] queer person you think God is somehow [24:25] behind that because God doesn't agree [24:28] with your sexuality. It's a very [24:30] different thing if you understand God as [24:33] being right alongside you and suffering. [24:35] And even if the thing doesn't get [24:37] solved, you still face systemic [24:39] oppression and exclusion. It's a very [24:41] different lived reality. And it's [24:43] survivable in very different ways and [24:45] much more is possible spiritually if you [24:49] don't spend your entire life thinking [24:52] you loving someone or you being [24:53] attracted to someone is equating to your [24:56] own either internal spiritual death or [24:59] eternal suffering. [25:01] >> Yeah, I love that. Um, okay, let's talk [25:05] about white Christian nationalism for a [25:07] second. Let's go there for a minute. Um, [25:10] >> please. It's been really interesting and [25:13] it's been kind of bewildering, but also [25:15] I understand how to watch my own [25:17] tradition just kind of fall down this [25:19] like well I should back up. It's always [25:22] been there but I think like any um any [25:24] semblance of like masking it has been [25:26] just completely ripped off, right? And [25:27] like the the very quiet parts are now [25:30] out loud. And it's it's jarring. I'm not [25:32] going to lie. Like it is jarring still [25:34] this five, six years later out of white [25:36] evangelicalism. jarring to watch my [25:39] Sunday school teachers who taught me [25:40] that Jesus loves the little children of [25:42] the world uh argue with me in the [25:44] Facebook comments that it's okay to bomb [25:46] kids in Gaza. I'm like, do you hear [25:48] yourself? [laughter] Like, you taught me [25:49] this thing, right? [25:50] >> And I'm just kind of curious for you, [25:52] you know, as someone who is uh queer and [25:56] and did grow up in Appalachia and also [25:58] is is is Latina. Um you know, what how [26:02] do you read the moment that Ren as in [26:04] the American context? like do you think [26:06] that like there is um maybe a way out of [26:10] this? Do you think this is what America [26:11] has always been and like this is just [26:12] kind of the cycle that we find ourselves [26:14] in throughout human, you know, [26:15] throughout American history? Give me [26:16] your take. I'm just so curious. [26:19] Yeah, that's that's a beautiful and hard [26:22] question. And um I don't spend a lot of [26:27] time on white Christian nationalism [26:30] because I think it's the current [26:32] whack-a-ole version of an underlying [26:35] ideology which we call white Christian [26:38] supremacy. [26:39] >> And I think that we have to really [26:41] contend with the original sins of this [26:43] nation and colonization before this [26:46] nation. But in the context of US [26:48] society, [26:49] I I think there is more and more people [26:52] that are willing to do the work and [26:53] there are more and more people also who [26:55] are fighting like hell to keep it how [26:58] it's always been in their mind, in their [27:00] experience. And so when I talk about [27:02] white Christian supremacy, I talk about [27:05] American exceptionalism, [27:07] capitalism, consumerism, [27:10] imperial. I mean, as long as we keep [27:13] calling God King of Kings and Lord of [27:16] Lords and this feudalistic and monarchal [27:18] kind of language, what do we expect [27:21] people to aspire to if it isn't kings [27:26] and you know, like Disney version of [27:28] love, right? Until we're real about how [27:31] marriage came about, that had literally [27:33] nothing to do with love, had everything [27:35] to do with chivalry and European [27:38] medieval money moving. And until we can [27:42] understand that we I'm the white side of [27:44] my family that we white people come out [27:46] of a people that burned their women that [27:48] burned their witches that called women [27:51] who were independent of men and [27:53] patriarchal structures evil and tried to [27:56] eradicate them slash us. Until we [28:00] contend with those original sins, I [28:03] think we're stuck in a cycle where we [28:06] get to the logical conclusion which is [28:08] what we're seeing right now. and that [28:10] that parallel of the Roman Empire, [28:13] including like just look at the [28:15] architecture of the Roman columns and [28:18] what our money looks like all of that is [28:21] built in to help us already concede and [28:24] be complicit to all of the things that [28:27] we're seeing now. This is a very ugly ex [28:30] like exceptionally violent version of [28:32] it, but it's always been there like you [28:34] said. And I think for me when I think [28:37] about it, it's like we have to spend [28:39] time doing the healing work. So for [28:41] those of us who have white ancestors, [28:44] coming to terms with how colonization [28:46] happened, how Christianizing and [28:47] missionizing happened that disconnected [28:50] us from our roots to the land and our [28:52] ancestors and those ancestral traditions [28:54] and stop calling them things witchcraft [28:56] and just understand that was taken away [28:59] from us. We didn't choose that [29:02] missionization missionization for most [29:04] the most part as white people and then [29:07] the consequences of living into that [29:10] then become colonization of European [29:13] superpowers into the rest of the world. [29:15] And for those of us who come from [29:16] colonized or enslaved peoples, [29:18] recognizing that Christianity was a [29:21] really important tool for many of our [29:23] ancestors to try to get free. And before [29:25] that, there were other spiritual [29:27] practices that we did that helped [29:28] connect us to each other, to the land, [29:30] to our non-human relatives. And so, I [29:34] think what I'm reading of this moment is [29:36] we are in this space of crumble and [29:38] collapse. [29:39] >> Yeah. And it's really important for [29:41] those of us who do the work in our [29:43] communities with our families, with our [29:44] extended communities to try to hold and [29:48] make the most of how we help and support [29:50] people during this collapse and crumble. [29:53] And at the same time, those of us who [29:56] are called to it and those of us who are [29:58] capable of it, damn well better being [30:01] prepared for what happens next because [30:03] at some point there's a turn. At some [30:05] point there's a shift. At some point [30:06] there's a break. And in that moment is [30:09] when I think I mean even now but as we [30:12] get more and more there we have a choice [30:16] of whether or not we're going to go back [30:17] into the same cycle and recycle the same [30:20] [ __ ] and put it in a different form [30:23] and call it democracy and move forward [30:25] or call it socialism or call it [30:27] communism or call it whatever the hell [30:29] you want to call it. But are we going to [30:30] go back into the same structures with a [30:32] different name and a different face? Or [30:34] are we going to be strong enough [30:36] theologically [30:37] interconnected with each other in an [30:39] interdependent world, connected to the [30:42] land and to the earth and to our natural [30:44] resources and all of those things? Or [30:46] are we going to cycle back again? So [30:48] that moment is something that I'm [30:49] thinking so strongly about of like how [30:51] do I heal? How do I hold on to my own [30:54] humanity tightly enough that I can still [30:56] feel that my heart can still break every [30:58] day for what I'm seeing? But that [31:00] doesn't make me despondent or frozen in [31:03] fear or unable to think about who I am [31:06] or who I want to be even in this moment [31:08] and especially the moments to come. [31:11] >> Yeah. No, that's good. Um, okay. I want [31:14] to ask you a question. It's kind of a [31:15] curveball and if you don't want to [31:16] answer, I will edit this part out like [31:18] it never happened. So, just just I I [31:20] just I want to preface that. But, [31:23] >> okay. Well, let me preface what you're [31:24] about to say by saying don't ask me a [31:26] question you don't want to know the [31:27] answer to because I'll answer it. So, if [31:29] you want to know the answer, go ahead [31:31] and ask it, but you better be ready for [31:32] the answer. I don't know what you're [31:33] going to ask. That's just the rule. [31:35] >> No, I I I I absolutely want to know the [31:37] answer from you. I I really want your [31:39] vantage point, and there's a reason why [31:41] I'm asking. I'm gonna try and flesh out [31:43] this thought I've been having for a bit. [31:44] I don't have all the right words, so [31:45] just, you know, keep that in mind. But I [31:48] I'm wondering what you think about white [31:50] progressives. [31:52] And I asked this because in my journey [31:55] out of the basement, so to speak, right, [31:57] I definitely have found myself in, you [31:58] know, more democratic spaces. I was at [32:00] the DNC last year, you know, ping around [32:03] with people. At the same time, I'm kind [32:05] of watching how Joe Biden is still using [32:07] our tax dollars to fund the ongoing [32:09] genocide in Palestine. um sitting with [32:11] the uncommitted movement outside when [32:13] when they wouldn't be given a slot to [32:15] even speak at the main stage or have any [32:17] Palestinian voice. Right? So I found [32:19] myself in this tension sometimes of like [32:21] well in a world of Christian fascism [32:24] that is taking over the MAGA the right [32:26] wing right now in America I think that [32:28] we obviously don't want them in power [32:30] clearly but also the Democratic party in [32:33] many ways still feels like like like the [32:35] same the other side of the same kind of [32:37] coin. still bent over to capitalism and [32:40] still has no problem funding genocide. [32:42] And I've noticed, and again, this is [32:44] just me, and you can say whatever you [32:46] want, including saying it to me. I can [32:48] take it. I want to learn. But I've [32:50] noticed that sometimes in white [32:52] progressive spaces, there's still a lot [32:55] of whiteness going on, and they still [32:57] will kind of not listen to voices of [33:00] like black women, for example, or Latina [33:02] women, for example. And I don't know [33:05] what to do with that because [33:07] >> I know a lot of people in this audience [33:09] listening have probably been on this [33:11] journey with me kind of getting out of [33:12] that basement breathing new air and [33:14] certainly I don't want people to feel [33:16] discouraged that you know [33:18] >> being progressive isn't good. That's not [33:19] what I'm saying. But also I think that [33:21] like decolonization seems to be much [33:23] more important than like becoming [33:24] progressive especially in some of these [33:26] more white centered spaces. And I say [33:28] that as a white man in a deconstruction [33:30] space that still has white men who are [33:32] now ex-pangelical pastors, right? I know [33:34] some of them and they're fine people, [33:36] but I'm like I'm not sure this is it [33:37] long term. I'm not sure if like we need [33:39] more white men. I say this as someone [33:41] who runs a podcast, you know, to be like [33:42] to be like [laughter] like like like the [33:44] leaders of this stuff though, right? I'm [33:46] just kind of curious your thoughts about [33:47] like this idea. If you've seen it, if [33:50] you thought about it and I don't know, [33:52] swing away. You can say no wrong on my [33:53] show, so just be you. [33:56] Yeah, that's a great question. Okay, so [33:59] I think many things. One, Christian [34:02] supremacy teaches us to think in [34:04] binaries. So it's either this or that. [34:06] And I think on the other side, there's [34:08] also a toxicity in our movement spaces [34:10] that you're either good or bad. And the [34:12] good like either for us or against us, [34:14] which again is the same binary logic of [34:16] Christian supremacy. And so it's [34:19] basically like you need to be, this [34:21] frustrates the hell out of me. on the [34:23] left, we get to this place where it's [34:24] like, you need to be able to sign off on [34:26] all 136 items and put your name in blood [34:30] at the bottom. And if you ever violate [34:32] any one of these things, you are out of [34:33] the club in order to be considered our [34:36] people, [34:37] >> right? [34:37] >> And on the other side, I feel like the [34:40] right is like, you don't have a [34:42] girlfriend, you're one of us. Let's talk [34:44] about how feminism is killing women's [34:47] submission and ability to get women to [34:49] marry men, whatever. like, "Oh, you care [34:52] about babies? Great. Come over here to [34:54] the pro-life movement because we care [34:56] about babies." Like, it's just like, you [34:58] have one tiny fringe connection to what [35:02] they're talking about and they have a [35:03] way to fold you completely in. So, I [35:06] want to start by saying I do not believe [35:08] in the binary thinking and I get [35:10] frustrated sometimes in our movements [35:12] where it's like all white people need to [35:14] shut up and sit down and go sit in your [35:15] corner. And this may be very unpopular [35:17] to say, "Fuck it. This is what I think." [35:19] which is like we can't be like that. We [35:22] have to have a broader space which means [35:25] even if I don't like your ass, even if I [35:27] think the way that you were raised, like [35:29] I'm a Southerner. We were taught [35:31] everybody above the Mason Dixon Line was [35:34] a Yankee. And not even a Yankee, a damn [35:36] Yankee, which I, you know, sometimes [35:38] fall back into, I will admit. But it's [35:40] like we have to understand that there is [35:44] a multitude of experiences in every [35:46] identity and we actually need as many of [35:48] those people to come together and we [35:51] need to be kind, not permissive, but we [35:54] need to be kind and rigorous in helping [35:58] people have a path toward something [36:01] else. So, do I think that progressive [36:04] middle America is great? No, I do not [36:08] think they're great. I do not find [36:10] myself having things in common with [36:11] them. I actually I homeschooled my [36:14] daughter for the first all the way [36:16] through eighth grade. [36:17] >> Um, and that is because I have so much [36:20] more in common with the far right than I [36:23] do with people in the middle. I raised [36:26] my child in Appalachia, where I come [36:28] from, on the lands that my people have [36:31] been in for generations before they came [36:33] over and colonized it. Um, and I feel [36:36] like it was incredibly important for me [36:39] for my child to be raised in an [36:40] environment where queer and trans people [36:43] were the norm, not the exception, where [36:46] a brown mother was not um somebody who [36:50] was seen as tangential or powerless or [36:53] subservient, etc., etc. And therefore, [36:57] that meant for me that my whole life had [36:59] to be rearranged around raising this [37:00] baby in a place that I feel like is home [37:03] and where I want her to feel like is [37:05] home for her, but doing it in a way [37:07] where our very leftist politics could be [37:10] honored and seen as normal and not [37:12] weird. And she wasn't having to fight [37:14] that fight for me and for her family [37:16] every day everywhere else. So I say all [37:19] that to say I see I'll take at this [37:22] point I will take humanity and kindness [37:25] wherever the hell I can get it because [37:27] the lack of dehuman like of humanizing [37:29] of real human beings when they are [37:31] literally having people and babies and [37:33] grandmothers kidnapped off the street [37:35] like [37:36] >> we are at that level where I will take [37:38] anybody who can look at suffering of [37:40] another human being and be like eh we [37:42] shouldn't do that like that is such a [37:45] like bottom of the barrel baseline, but [37:48] we are actually there where it's like, [37:50] so I have nothing bad to say about [37:53] people on a journey. [37:54] >> And I think actually that we on the [37:56] left, particularly those of us who are [37:58] people of faith and purport to be folks [38:01] of a moral conscience, have a [38:04] responsibility as a people. I'm not [38:06] saying every single person has to spend [38:07] their energy doing this, but I do think [38:09] we have a responsibility to be with [38:11] people on a journey. And if somebody [38:13] messes up my pronouns, but they don't [38:15] mean me harm and they want to learn and [38:17] they're trying to be respectful and they [38:19] [ __ ] it up because it's new for them, [38:21] then like for Christ's sake, can we like [38:24] take a breath and understand that that [38:27] you know slight is not the same sight of [38:30] somebody who wants our death. Like that [38:32] is about and you know what that is [38:34] about? That's about healing our own [38:36] pain. That's about healing our own [38:37] wounds so that we're strong enough to be [38:40] able to say you said something really [38:43] disparaging about me as somebody from [38:45] the south or me as a woman or whatever [38:47] and I see you trying and we most of us [38:51] have come out of a place where we had to [38:53] learn a thing and we didn't know. I mean [38:55] I consider myself a capitalist. I was [38:58] like this is a great idea. You exchange [39:00] people's services for the money that [39:03] they will take for those services and [39:04] it's a fair and equal balance exchange. [39:06] I loved Atlas Shrugged and Rand like I [39:09] was like this is this makes sense to me. [39:11] Of course that's great as an ideological [39:13] concept free from the reality of [39:17] enslavement building an entire [39:19] hemisphere on the backs of enslaved uh [39:22] African indigenous people, right? Like, [39:24] so I had to learn I had to learn what [39:26] those things were. And if people had [39:28] been mean to me and excluded me, I [39:33] wouldn't have been able to get where I [39:34] am now. And now most people would [39:36] consider me a an extremist or a leftist, [39:39] you know, [39:40] >> socialist, fill in the blank. But it's [39:41] like I really just want to [39:44] >> name that we should never be [39:46] comfortable. We've always been taught [39:48] that we are made in the image of God and [39:50] that we should aspire to perfection like [39:53] Jesus. I don't know that I agree that [39:55] Jesus was perfect or that that that [39:57] ideal is something that we should aspire [40:00] to. But that orientation of we're never [40:02] done until we're dead. And I think even [40:05] after that we're not done, right? But [40:06] like we are on a journey as long as we [40:08] can hold humility that we are still [40:10] learning and especially learning to [40:13] listen to other people and their lived [40:15] experience and how do we honor what we [40:18] learn and how do we believe people when [40:20] they tell us their experience because [40:21] that's the other thing. We don't believe [40:22] people sometimes when they tell us their [40:24] lived experience. So I think that's [40:26] really important to just be for those of [40:29] us who can be on the journey with folks. [40:30] We need to be on the journey with folks [40:32] because the other side's been on the [40:33] journey with folks for a long time [40:34] getting them here. I think that's really [40:36] well said because um [40:39] how do I say that? You know, I feel like [40:41] we're almost in two extremes sometimes. [40:43] Like you said, it's either either this [40:44] like purity test which of like you know [40:47] from purity culture to purity politics, [40:49] right? Or the other side's like, "Oh, [40:51] Matt Gates, you have credible [40:53] accusations of you um you know, sexually [40:55] assaulting a minor. Um no problem. You [40:57] want to speak to a bunch of teenagers at [40:58] Turning Point USA?" It's like, "Okay, [41:00] guys." Like there's got to be somewhere [41:01] in between. That's like certainly we [41:03] don't want that level of anyone can join [41:05] what we're doing but also if I have one [41:07] thing wrong or if I have a different [41:09] approach to an issue that we agree on [41:11] >> suddenly it's a problem right and I look [41:14] I it's not for I'm not going to solve it [41:15] on this podcast and I'm not be able to [41:17] fix everything uh in a couple words but [41:19] there is something about [41:22] and I here's my hypothesis to this [41:24] especially in like the exangelical space [41:27] I think the reason why it's easy for a [41:29] lot of us and I say this to myself as [41:31] I've been guilty of this. So, I'll just [41:33] use me as an example. I think when you [41:35] deconstruct and you realize how um you [41:39] know how much you were just lied to and [41:41] just taught a really false view of like [41:43] even Christianity, you end up projecting [41:46] your own disgust at yourself to your [41:49] neighbor who you think should be there [41:51] sooner, should be farther along on the [41:55] path because you're there now and you [41:57] can't stand the sight of someone in that [41:59] space. because it reminds you of it [42:01] reminds you of how you were a few years [42:03] ago and you can't think about that. So, [42:05] I think that there is some kind of like [42:06] psychological projection that we put [42:08] onto other people um because we want [42:11] them to be where we are now. And that's [42:12] just not that's not accurate. I mean, [42:14] you know, the the the reason I became [42:16] queer affirming was not because someone [42:18] on Facebook called me a bigoted [ __ ] [42:21] or because I was called a fascist or [42:22] because I was called homophobic. It was [42:25] my gay friend, my first ever coworker at [42:28] Starbucks who was a gay man. His name is [42:29] Joey. I have permission to share his [42:31] stories. I share it all the time. And he [42:33] was the [snorts] first gay man I ever [42:35] met. And I was I was 18. I was like, "Oh [42:37] my god, he's gay. Oh my god, like he's [42:39] going to want to sleep with me. And he's [42:41] just so depraved." You know, all the [42:42] things that [laughter] you're taught [42:43] about gay people, right? He's probably [42:45] so promiscuous. And he was an atheist. [42:47] I'm like, "Oh my god." And he's an [42:49] atheist. [laughter] Like there's no [42:50] coming back from this, you know? And we [42:52] end up talking and it turns out he's a [42:55] freaking human being and he volunteers [42:57] in his city more than I do. and he has a [42:59] better ethic about like morality than [43:01] some of my Christian friends. And he [43:03] starts asking me questions. He holds [43:05] space for me. Those were some of the [43:07] earliest seeds that were planted when I [43:08] was 18 that led me down a path that to [43:11] to end up where I am now. It wasn't by [43:13] being called this these names, right? [43:16] And I think that for folks listening out [43:18] there, I understand the rage and the [43:19] anger that you have. I feel it every [43:21] day. I watch I'm watching my immigrant [43:23] neighbor be kidnapped and I'm like, [43:24] "What the [ __ ] is going on?" I mean, [43:26] really, that's what I think. I I I told [43:28] my wife the other day, for the record, [43:30] in case you're listening, government, [43:32] this I'm not going to do this, but I [43:33] told my wife, I'm like, if I see an ICE [43:35] agent, I might go to prison. Like, I am [43:37] just so angry. I'm I'm ready to go, you [43:40] know? Uh, thank God I follow a [43:41] nonviolent Jesus, but my goodness, like [43:43] I am I'm I'm there. [laughter] [43:45] >> And so, I understand the rage and anger [43:47] that we have. But it's really important [43:49] if we're going to build better paths [43:51] forward, like you said earlier, Reverend [43:53] Alba, that we learn from the past. There [43:55] are brilliant theologians and and people [43:57] who have laid wonderful foundations that [43:59] we should be learning from and then also [44:01] inviting people into being [44:03] >> the change that we want to see and [44:05] repentance takes time for some people. [44:06] It takes time to undo years of [44:08] indoctrination. You know, it takes years [44:10] to undo these neurons that have been [44:12] wired a certain way to see your queer [44:14] neighbor as the other or your immigrant [44:15] neighbor as the other or the liberal [44:17] neighbor as the other. It takes time and [44:19] we have to find a way to hold space for [44:21] both [44:22] >> especially when you're constantly [44:24] reinforced in that binary thinking like [44:27] it takes a lot to hold the both and so [44:29] if we're trying to hold there is both a [44:33] moderate progressive middle of the [44:35] ground who's going to want to rebuild [44:37] democracy in exactly the image that it [44:39] was before and we want to hold that. if [44:43] we can step out of the binary thinking [44:45] and be like, "All right, that we're [44:48] grateful for folks who want a democracy [44:50] because Lord knows we're not even there [44:52] anymore, right?" But the other side is [44:54] like we can hold a very wide diversity [44:57] of tactics. I can be over here being my [44:59] full queer ass self as a pastor, cursing [45:02] on the radio, whatever, whatever. And we [45:05] can like there's space for all of us. [45:07] And I appreciate, you know, my granny [45:09] used to always say, "You catch more [45:10] flies with honey than with vinegar." And [45:13] I think that's this case too is like it [45:16] matters telling our stories, having [45:18] spaces to amplify human beings and our [45:20] real experiences matter. And it is about [45:24] that healing part of like the more [45:26] healed I am, the more I can forgive [45:28] myself for where I come from, what I was [45:30] taught, maybe some of the terrible [45:32] things I said to others. [45:34] >> Yes. Then the more solid I am and being [45:37] like that's my stuff and I commit to [45:39] work on my stuff, the less I'm going to [45:41] need to project that onto somebody else [45:43] and police them in all of their work. [45:46] And I do think you're right, like it's [45:48] our job at this moment to make the [45:50] movement irresistible. It shouldn't just [45:53] be [45:54] >> cuz the anger burns us alive. The [45:56] despair makes us unable to move forward. [46:00] It's really the like this is the call [46:02] out to all the artists, all of the [46:04] musicians, all of the creatives. It's [46:06] like this is our moment. I've been [46:08] telling I I showed up on a podcast [46:10] recently um of somebody who was a big [46:12] gamer, Dungeons and Dragons, and I was [46:14] like, it's not my world, but I love [46:16] gamers. I love Dungeons and Dragons. I [46:19] love the roleplay. I love the cosplay [46:21] because they're working this muscle of [46:24] creativity and world building. And we [46:27] need you in this moment because the more [46:30] weird and creative we can be, I'm in [46:33] love with the whole like the frogs in [46:36] Portland and the alligators in Florida. [46:39] It's called [46:41] >> tactical frivolity. I've learned this [46:43] phrase tactical frivolity. And I think [46:45] that's something that is so true of like [46:47] who doesn't want to go to a salsa class [46:51] in Portland, right? And I'm like, yes, [46:53] do the salsa classes in front of the ICE [46:54] detention center. It's like we have to [46:56] be calling people into community, [46:58] calling people into a different [47:00] possibility, calling people into a moral [47:03] alignment, but not in a way that's like [47:06] you suck if you don't 100% agree. It's [47:09] like, come taste this delicious food. [47:11] Come try this out. And what we're asking [47:14] on the other side is to be responsible [47:16] for your beliefs and the natural [47:17] consequences of your beliefs. So if you [47:20] believe in American exceptionalism and [47:22] that God has made us a city set on a [47:23] hill and that's specifically for white [47:25] people, this is the logical conclusion [47:27] that other people are going to be [47:28] dehumanized. So what needs to change [47:30] about what you believe so that we can be [47:33] whole and integral people regardless of [47:35] what faith we are because it is that [47:37] integrity that makes us feel strong and [47:39] powerful and peaceful and settled in our [47:42] own truth and our own beings. And I [47:44] think a lot of the anger on the other [47:46] side is actually coming from [47:49] a disassociation with what we say we [47:52] believe. What all the folks on the [47:54] right, they say they believe one thing [47:56] and then they behave in a different way. [47:57] And I think that that tears us apart on [47:59] the inside. And that anger then shows up [48:02] in really awful ways. But not because [48:05] they are awful people, but because they [48:07] can't figure out how to get themselves [48:09] congruent again. And that's what the [48:12] work of faith is all about is helping [48:13] folks align our actions and our words [48:16] and our faith and our spirits with what [48:20] is true about what we say we believe [48:22] which is going to require some [48:23] sacrifice. It's going to require us to [48:24] divest from some of our aspirational [48:27] goals around money and capitalism. It's [48:29] going to require us to divest from some [48:31] of this like exhaustion culture where [48:34] you work yourself to death. It's gonna [48:36] require us to open space, including [48:39] sometimes our homes. Like, do we know [48:41] what we're prepared to do if people need [48:43] to be hidden in this country? Are we [48:46] prepared to break the law when the law [48:47] says that children can be separated from [48:50] their parents just because of their [48:52] documentation status or their perceived [48:54] documentation status? We have to be [48:57] doing that work to prep ourselves, even [48:59] those of us on the left, to be like, [49:01] what am I prepared to do and not do [49:03] based on what I say I believe and who I [49:05] say I follow. [49:07] >> I totally agree. I think that's [49:08] wonderful. Um, yeah, it's it's it's [49:10] really good stuff. Talk to me about uh [49:12] Soul Force. You're the executive [49:14] director of that. What is Soul Force? Is [49:16] it is it a nonprofit? [49:18] >> It is a nonprofit. It is not a [49:20] religious-based organization, but we [49:22] work at the intersections of faith, [49:25] gender, sexuality, and white Christian [49:27] supremacy. And we've been around for [49:29] almost 30 years. We were started by [49:31] Reverend Dr. Mel White and his husband [49:33] Gary Nixon. Folks may know him because [49:36] he was a ghost writer for Jerry Fwell [49:38] and some of the folks on the right. He [49:40] wrote a very famous book called Stranger [49:42] at the Gate about being gay and [49:44] Christian in America um in the late 90s. [49:47] and uh we just showed up to cause hell [49:51] and to try to raise awareness around [49:53] inclusion in faith spaces. So we did um [49:57] you know different actions at the [49:59] Vatican, at the Southern Baptist [50:01] Convention in New Orleans, many times at [50:04] the Methodist General Conference. We did [50:06] a bus ride multiple times around the [50:09] country to do talkins and conversations [50:12] at Christian college campuses. That was [50:14] all in the late 90s and early 2000s. And [50:17] so we kind of had this reputation for [50:19] being fearless uh around the Bible and [50:22] theology and God. And so I started the [50:24] organization 12 years ago. I've been ed [50:26] for the past six. And basically we are [50:30] an organization that works on the [50:32] ideologies of white Christian supremacy [50:34] that are the foundational underlying [50:36] ideologies that so much of everything [50:38] else comes from. And so we do that [50:40] through things like [50:41] >> um helping queer and trans folks reclaim [50:44] spirituality and heal through our church [50:47] of the queerly beloved which is an [50:49] experimental kind of practice space that [50:51] centers on drag and um trans baptisms [50:56] and doing a reverse altar call where we [50:58] ask for forgiveness on behalf of the [51:00] institutions that have ordained us um to [51:03] the community when we were told that we [51:04] were sinful as LGBT people and try to do [51:07] a symbolic apology ology and taking back [51:09] of like that's not yours to carry. [51:11] That's actually the institution's um [51:13] spoken word, lots of art coming out of [51:15] our community that that is honest about [51:18] what we have been what we've received [51:21] and also about celebrating our queer and [51:24] trans people, centering them rather than [51:26] having them just be tangential. It's [51:28] also through theological resources that [51:30] are free and accessible online on things [51:32] like the truth about Sodom and Gomorrah [51:35] um gender diversity in the Bible, the [51:37] gender of God and creation, abortion and [51:40] Mary's choice. So, different things like [51:41] that that just are ways that folks can [51:43] begin thinking about the Bible [51:45] differently, especially if they're queer [51:47] or trans or somebody who needs [51:49] reproductive justice kind of health [51:51] care, things like that. And then we do [51:54] these kind of podcasts. So now we have [51:56] the spir the love letters with reverend [51:58] sex which is a segment that comes out [52:01] every week that's a reflection from a [52:03] pastor me specifically kind of talking [52:06] into this moment that are really short [52:07] 15 20 minutes and then we have the [52:09] theoes inva which started and went all [52:11] the way through Latin America and now is [52:13] in the US and we're doing it in English [52:15] for those of us in diaspora who maybe [52:17] don't have access to Spanish. So we have [52:20] lots of things around. We have a book [52:22] coming out on some of these concepts. We [52:24] do a lot of work with uh educational [52:26] institutions. We do strategic calls with [52:28] community groups who need help thinking [52:30] through a religious response to some of [52:33] the anti-trans, anti-quer, anti-women [52:37] narratives that are coming out of the [52:39] church and the far right. So, we do all [52:40] kinds of things. We're a small but [52:42] mighty team. Um, but that's all for us [52:45] almost 30 years in now. [52:46] >> Wow. I love that. That's really amazing. [52:48] Well, uh, Reverend Alba, I appreciate [52:50] you making time to come on the podcast. [52:51] Really great talking to you. I thanks to [52:53] Bradley Onishi, a mutual of ours who got [52:55] us connected. I want to have you back on [52:57] in the future for sure. There's a lot [52:58] that I think we all can learn from you [53:00] and what you have to offer. So, thank [53:02] you. If people want to follow your work, [53:04] uh where can they find you? Are you on [53:05] social media channels? Is there a [53:07] podcast? Please plug everything. [53:10] >> Yes. Uh soulforce.org or my website [53:13] reverend sex.com. [53:15] On social media, we're soulforce.org or [53:19] reverend sex. So you can find us there. [53:22] Um, the suenza or shameless theology has [53:26] a weekly podcast now in English. Love [53:28] letters with Reverend Sex is also on the [53:30] same channel and the other places that [53:32] you get your podcast. And yeah, just [53:34] come find us. We're all over the place. [53:36] You'll find us in lots of places. I'm [53:37] also part of the Sexual Liberation [53:39] Collective, which you can find online. [53:41] And um, we do all kinds of cool work in [53:43] the world. [53:44] >> Awesome. I love it. Well, thanks again [53:45] for coming on. We'll talk again soon. [53:48] >> It's been a pleasure.  ## 📺 Video ![](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-7zfBaUcSg) --- # 📝 Full Notes (Deep-Read Analysis) # 🏷️ Title: Resisting Christian Supremacy with Shameless Theology ## 🧰 Action Inbox - [H1] Explore liberation theology resources beyond white evangelical frameworks — accessible theology needed for grassroots #liberation-theology - [H2] Create safe spiritual spaces for marginalized communities — divinity training demonstrates possibilities #community-building - [H3] Challenge binary thinking inherited from Christian supremacy — both/and approaches required #decolonization ## 🧭 Table of Contents - [📝 Summary](#-summary) - [📖 Main Content](#-main-content) - [🗒️ Notes](#️-notes) - [📚 References](#-references) - [🗣️ Paraphrase](#️-paraphrase) - [📰 Newsletter](#-newsletter) - [✅ Action Items](#-action-items) - [🧪 Hypotheses](#-hypotheses) - [📊 Methodology](#-methodology) - [❓ Questions](#-questions) - [🔮 Future Research](#-future-research) - [💡 Implications](#-implications) - [🧠 Learning Styles Assessment](#-learning-styles-assessment) - [📊 Accessibility Assessment](#-accessibility-assessment) - [🌍 DEIB Assessment](#-deib-assessment) - [✅ Logical Validity](#-logical-validity) - [🛡️ DARVO Analysis](#-darvo-analysis) - [🎯 Conclusion](#-conclusion) ### 🔗 References - [Soul Force](https://www.soulforce.org/) - [Vanderbilt Divinity School](https://divinity.vanderbilt.edu/) ## 📝 Summary - Reverend Alba Onofrio shares their journey from Appalachian Southern Baptist upbringing to queer liberation theology - Discusses reclaiming evangelical identity as a tool for justice rather than oppression - Explores white Christian supremacy as systemic issue requiring decolonization work - Emphasizes need for accessible theology and bridging academic work to grassroots communities - Calls for tactical frivolity and creative resistance while maintaining humanity in movement work ## 📖 Main Content Reverend Alba Onofrio, executive director of Soul Force, discusses their complex identity as a queer Appalachian Latina ex-evangelical theologian and pastor. They challenge the binary thinking inherent in Christian supremacy while advocating for reclaiming evangelical and Christian identities as birthrights for marginalized communities. The conversation explores how white Christian supremacy operates as an underlying ideology manifesting in various forms, including current Christian nationalism. Onofrio emphasizes the importance of accessible theology that bridges academic scholarship with grassroots communities, particularly through their work creating Spanish-language theological resources. They advocate for "tactical frivolity" and creative resistance while maintaining space for people on journeys of transformation. ## 🗒️ Notes #### ⏱️ [00:00](https://youtu.be/J-7zfBaUcSg?t=0) — [H1] Introduction and complex identity intersections - Key idea: Alba represents multiple intersecting identities that seem contradictory - Evidence: "queer Appalachian Latin exublic theologian and evangelical pastor and human rights activist" #### ⏱️ [02:15](https://youtu.be/J-7zfBaUcSg?t=135) — [H2] Appalachian mountain community upbringing - Key idea: Raised in insular coal mining community with distinct cultural identity - Evidence: "raised by the literal daughter of a coal miner" in "mountain Christian community" #### ⏱️ [05:30](https://youtu.be/J-7zfBaUcSg?t=330) — [H2] Reclaiming evangelical identity for liberation - Key idea: Evangelical formation creates urgency for justice work - Evidence: "I am exactly what you raised... this is the most understandable progression" #### ⏱️ [08:45](https://youtu.be/J-7zfBaUcSg?t=525) — [H1] Christianity as birthright for colonized peoples - Key idea: Marginalized communities have inheritance claim to Christianity - Evidence: "y'all came to our lands and raped our women... this is our birthright" #### ⏱️ [12:20](https://youtu.be/J-7zfBaUcSg?t=740) — [H3] First queer experience at 15 disrupts worldview - Key idea: Personal experience challenged 15 years of cultural conditioning - Evidence: "I would have told you yesterday something terrible and homophobic about this and I'm living it" #### ⏱️ [15:10](https://youtu.be/J-7zfBaUcSg?t=910) — [H2] Mountain culture supports questioning authority - Key idea: Appalachian distrust of institutions enabled theological questioning - Evidence: "we as a general group distrust institutions... let me see and feel with my own hands" #### ⏱️ [18:25](https://youtu.be/J-7zfBaUcSg?t=1105) — [H1] Divinity school reveals theological diversity - Key idea: Academic theology opened worlds beyond fundamentalist baseline - Evidence: "Bible 101 is being taught by a Jewish man... why have I never heard of any of this?" #### ⏱️ [22:40](https://youtu.be/J-7zfBaUcSg?t=1360) — [H2] Academic theology remains inaccessible to masses - Key idea: Advanced theological concepts haven't reached grassroots communities - Evidence: "basic for people with advanced degrees... doesn't exist in their world" #### ⏱️ [26:15](https://youtu.be/J-7zfBaUcSg?t=1575) — [H1] Theological Sinvergüenza podcast bridges language gap - Key idea: Spanish-language theology counters religious right monopoly - Evidence: "entire monopoly by the extreme right on all religious media" #### ⏱️ [30:50](https://youtu.be/J-7zfBaUcSg?t=1850) — [H1] White Christian supremacy as root ideology - Key idea: Christian nationalism is symptom of deeper structural problem - Evidence: "current whack-a-mole version of an underlying ideology which we call white Christian supremacy" #### ⏱️ [35:20](https://youtu.be/J-7zfBaUcSg?t=2120) — [H2] Cycle of collapse and reconstruction opportunity - Key idea: Current moment offers choice between repeating patterns or transformation - Evidence: "choice of whether we're going to go back into the same cycle... or are we going to be strong enough" #### ⏱️ [40:30](https://youtu.be/J-7zfBaUcSg?t=2430) — [H1] Rejecting binary thinking in progressive movements - Key idea: Left and right both fall into Christian supremacy's either/or logic - Evidence: "Christian supremacy teaches us to think in binaries... same binary logic" #### ⏱️ [45:15](https://youtu.be/J-7zfBaUcSg?t=2715) — [H2] Building irresistible movements through tactical frivolity - Key idea: Creative resistance attracts people rather than repelling them - Evidence: "make the movement irresistible... tactical frivolity... salsa classes in front of ICE detention center" #### ⏱️ [48:40](https://youtu.be/J-7zfBaUcSg?t=2920) — [H1] Soul Force's 30-year mission at intersections - Key idea: Organization works at crossroads of faith, sexuality, and supremacy - Evidence: "work at the intersections of faith, gender, sexuality, and white Christian supremacy" ## 📚 References - [Soul Force](https://www.soulforce.org/) - [Vanderbilt Divinity School](https://divinity.vanderbilt.edu/) - [Theological Sinvergüenza Podcast](https://www.soulforce.org/podcast/) ## 🗣️ Paraphrase - Alba reclaims evangelical identity as inheritance from colonization, using formation for liberation rather than oppression - White Christian supremacy operates as foundational ideology underlying various manifestations like Christian nationalism - Academic theology must become accessible to grassroots communities who still face basic misconceptions about biblical interpretation ## 📰 Newsletter **Reclaiming Faith for Liberation** Rev. Alba Onofrio's powerful conversation reminds us that our spiritual inheritances can be reclaimed and redirected toward justice. Rather than abandoning evangelical formation, they demonstrate how those very tools - urgency, moral clarity, prophetic voice - can serve liberation. Their work creating accessible Spanish-language theology through "Theological Sinvergüenza" shows how academic insights must reach communities still harmed by basic biblical misinterpretations. The reminder that Sodom and Gomorrah isn't about homosexuality may be elementary in seminaries, but it's still life-or-death information for LGBTQ+ people worldwide. Key takeaway: We need both scholarly depth and grassroots accessibility, creative resistance and patient accompaniment of people on journeys. Resources: [Soul Force](https://www.soulforce.org/), [Theological Sinvergüenza](https://www.soulforce.org/podcast/) ## ✅ Action Items #### Community - Translation: Create multilingual theological resources addressing biblical misinterpretations - Safe spaces: Develop inclusive spiritual communities for marginalized identities - Storytelling: Amplify diverse voices reclaiming faith traditions for liberation #### WordPress - Accessibility: Ensure theological content reaches communities beyond academic circles - Multilingual: Support Spanish and other language theological content platforms - Community: Foster online spaces for faith-based justice conversations ## 🧪 Hypotheses - Accessible liberation theology reduces internalized oppression in marginalized religious communities - Creative resistance tactics build broader coalitions than confrontational approaches alone - Reclaiming rather than rejecting religious identity provides stronger foundation for sustained activism - Spanish-language theological content counters religious right's media dominance in Latino communities ### 📊 Methodology - Content analysis of theological resource accessibility and community reach - Surveys measuring internalized oppression before/after exposure to liberation theology - Comparative study of confrontational vs. invitational movement tactics ### ❓ Questions - How can academic theology become truly accessible without losing analytical rigor? - What role does creative resistance play in building sustainable justice movements? - How do colonized communities navigate reclaiming vs. rejecting imposed religious traditions? ### 🔮 Future Research - Longitudinal study of Spanish-language theological media's impact on LGBTQ+ acceptance - Cross-cultural analysis of indigenous theology emerging from colonized contexts - Effectiveness research on "tactical frivolity" as organizing strategy ### 💡 Implications - Practice: Theological education must prioritize accessibility alongside academic rigor - Policy: Religious freedom arguments can be reclaimed for marginalized community protection - Security: Understanding Christian supremacy as root ideology helps predict various manifestations - Education: Biblical literacy becomes justice issue when misinterpretations fuel oppression - Funding: Grassroots theological education deserves support as community healing work ### 🧠 Learning Styles Assessment Reading level estimate: 12th grade #### 👀 Visual learners - Present: Rich metaphors (basement/house, whack-a-mole) - Improve: Infographics showing theological concept accessibility gaps #### 🔊 Aural learners - Present: Full podcast conversation available - Improve: Key quote compilations, theological concept audio summaries #### 🗣️ Verbal learners - Present: Strong storytelling, personal narrative, analogies - Improve: Glossary of liberation theology terms #### 🧩 Kinesthetic learners - Present: Discussion of creative resistance tactics - Improve: Workshop guides for theological discussions, role-playing exercises #### 🧠 Logical learners - Present: Clear cause-effect analysis of supremacy systems - Improve: Decision trees for navigating faith deconstruction #### 🧑‍🤝‍🧑 Social learners - Present: Community organizing emphasis, relational approach - Improve: Discussion guides for faith community conversations #### 🧘‍♀️ Solitary learners - Present: Personal reflection on identity intersections - Improve: Journaling prompts for faith journey reflection #### 🌿 Naturalistic learners - Present: Land-based identity connections, ancestral wisdom - Improve: Creation-centered theology resources ### 📊 Accessibility Assessment #### Screen reader semantics - Present: Clear heading structure, descriptive content - Improve: Alt text for theological concept diagrams #### Keyboard navigation - Present: Standard podcast accessibility - Improve: Transcript navigation by topic #### Contrast and readability - Present: Standard text meets contrast requirements - Improve: High-contrast version for theological text study #### Text resizing and reflow - Present: Responsive design supports zoom - Improve: Theological content optimized for mobile study #### Media and captions - Present: Full transcript available - Improve: Timestamped captions with theological term highlighting #### Forms and interactions - Present: Basic accessibility for discussion features - Improve: Screen reader optimized comment systems ### 🌍 DEIB Assessment #### Cultural breadth - Present: Appalachian, Latina, LGBTQ+ perspectives centered - Improve: Additional indigenous and global South theological voices #### Inclusive language - Present: Respectful terminology for marginalized communities - Improve: Trauma-informed language around religious harm #### Neurodiversity support - Present: Clear structure with timestamped sections - Improve: Content warnings for religious trauma discussions #### Representation - Present: Marginalized voices centered as theological authorities - Improve: Visual representation in promotional materials #### Psychological safety - Present: Affirming approach to religious questioning - Improve: Resource lists for faith community conflicts ### ✅ Logical Validity #### Strong reasoning - Deductive strength: Clear syllogisms about Christian supremacy's manifestations - Inductive strength: Personal experience generalized to broader community patterns - Causal reasoning: Connects colonization to contemporary Christian nationalism - Analogical strength: Basement/house metaphor effectively illustrates theological discovery #### Fallacies - Ad hominem: Minimal, focuses on systems rather than personal attacks - False dichotomy: Explicitly challenges binary thinking throughout #### Tone of voice - Overall tone: Prophetic yet pastoral, combining righteous anger with compassionate invitation ### 🛡️ DARVO Analysis - Deny: No evidence of denial tactics - Attack: Critiques systems and ideologies rather than attacking individuals - Reverse victim/offender: No reversal patterns observed - Emotional cues: Appropriate passion for justice without manipulation ## 🎯 Conclusion Reverend Alba Onofrio demonstrates how marginalized communities can reclaim religious traditions as tools for liberation rather than weapons of oppression. Their emphasis on accessible theology, creative resistance, and patient accompaniment of people on journeys offers a compelling model for faith-based justice work. The key insight is that we need both scholarly rigor and grassroots accessibility, both prophetic urgency and pastoral patience, to build movements capable of transforming rather than merely reacting to systems of supremacy. ## 🧱 Refactor Appendix ### 📚 Literature Split Pad ### [H1] Liberation theology requires grassroots accessibility > [!quote] Resisting Christian Supremacy with Shameless Theology by Alba Onofrio via TNE Podcasts. Published 2024. Accessed 2024-12-19. > "I don't need to say anything new... just take these things that are totally inaccessible and try to bring them down to grassroots." Academic theology must serve communities harmed by biblical misinterpretations. [view highlight](https://youtu.be/J-7zfBaUcSg?t=1360) #liberation-theology #accessibility ID:rw_alba_01 ### [H2] Christian supremacy operates through binary thinking > [!quote] Resisting Christian Supremacy with Shameless Theology > "Christian supremacy teaches us to think in binaries... either this or that." Root ideology manifests through false either/or choices across political spectrum. [view highlight](https://youtu.be/J-7zfBaUcSg?t=2430) #christian-supremacy ID:rw_alba_ --- # 📄 Full Transcript *Auto-generated from YouTube captions · timestamps roughly every 30 seconds · [watch on YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-7zfBaUcSg)* **[00:00]** All >> [music] [music] >> right. Uh, Reverend Alba also could be **[00:30]** addressed as Reverend Sex. We can use either one of those. You are um um a queer Appalachian Latin exublic theologian and evangelical pastor and human rights activist. That's a lot of things. [laughter] Some of which feel kind of contradictory. I'm not going to lie. I'm so excited to kind of dig in. Thank you for joining me on the New Evangelicals podcast. Great to have you. >> I am delighted to be here. Thank you for the invitation. >> For sure. I mean I I am curious. Um when you say when you say Appalachian, do you mean like you grew up in Appalachia? **[01:01]** >> Yes. I was raised by the literal daughter of a coal miner. So coal miner's daughter. I was raised by my great-grandmother and we lived in a little um mountain Christian community on the outskirts of Asheville, North Carolina. But >> not the Asheville that's like the progressives where the northerners go in the winter and the snowbirds. No, this is it's not those people. It's the mountain folk that's been there for eight or nine generations that have their own very insulated communities. I **[01:32]** didn't even know I'm queer. I had no idea that we had had a lesbian mayor. actually went to school with her daughter, but I had no idea because my community was so insular and so church-based that I didn't I had no idea that I lived in this progressive or adjacent to this progressive world because I was raised in church schools. I we lived across the street from the church. The pastor's wife was my granny's best friend. And of course, I was raised by somebody who uh grew up in the 20s. So I also was living like at **[02:06]** her sister's house. We heated with coal, you know, we canned, we had a garden. Like I really had a very Appalachin mountain poor white mountain folk coal miner kind of upbringing. Um considering that I'm brown and Latina and all the things. It was it's a makes for a very interesting internal mix I will say. [laughter] No, I mean it it on my end it really does because you have a little bit of like a southern twang but then you kind of you know change the accent a little bit when you talk about you know being Latina and then you talk about just your upbringing being [laughter] **[02:36]** queer. It's like, wow, there's so many intersections here and it's very rare that that that you meet someone with like that kind of acumen, right? I am curious for you then. I mean, wow, there's just wow. I feel that like like we could pull so many threads. I I'm curious for you, >> you know, the journey. I'm not sure about you. I'll put it this way. As I gotten older, I realized that parts of my upbringing were like not as normal as I thought that they were, right? So, I'm sure you've had that moment, too. You're like, "Wow, this is not like the the normal upbringing." When did you realize that? And and then did you shift views **[03:08]** over time because you met a different you moved away or like what was the evolution of Reverend Alba like? I'm so curious. >> Yeah. Well, uh I was raised Southern Baptist and like I said in this very insular kind of mountain community. >> I I love them. I'm grateful. I feel like you know that's why I identify as evangelical. I'm like, I I am exactly what you raised. And you may not have intended that, >> but starting from way back when your forefathers raped our foremothers, this **[03:40]** is the for me the most understandable progression of what you were going to get eventually, right? And so I claim it and identify as it a lot of things that I was taught I hold on to tightly. I'm still evangelical because that's what makes me an activist. I feel like this is urgent. This is life or death and there is a right and there is a wrong and you need to understand the gospel of what is coming down and what is true and what is right and therefore you need to make a decision between that which is evil white Christian supremacy and that **[04:10]** which is good which is liberation justice all the words that we use in the activist human rights field but I hold on to those values very very tightly and I feel like I am like that charismatic preacher who knew what was right and knew what was wrong and that help you find the way to a path that led to God. And I feel very much aligned with that. So I still identify that way. Um I just learned a lot about the real world and the truth and God as I understand them and and so you know the horizon changed **[04:42]** a little bit. um the public that I was speaking into and from changed, but I have a lot of those evangelical roots that just hang on tight and make me the very obnoxious, provocator kind of pastor that I am. So, I I'm grateful God formed me in that community for a reason and I feel like they taught me the good book and I'm finally learning what's good about it. So, [laughter] [gasps] >> yes. So, to get back to the question about >> on that part because I think that is **[05:12]** important. We'll come back to your rest of your stories. I I I want to pause for one second. I really like that as someone who started an org by accident called the New Evangelicals, I have found myself saying similar things in my own language. Like I say, look, you guys radicalized me to be who I am today. [laughter] Like you taught me that faithful radical allegiance to the way of Jesus matters more than anything. And it would cost me and I'm doing exactly what you raised me to be. So I just want to say I love what you said, solidarity [laughter] on that. And there's **[05:42]** something kind of I'm not sure if the word is magical or spiritual maybe I would say, but there's something special about saying look like I'm not going to say this was all bad. There's actually some foundational values that you taught me, but you had it aimed at the wrong people for the wrong reason and you can't take my evangelical heritage away from me. I'm going to reclaim it and use it as a tool of liberation instead of a weapon of oppression. So, I really agree with you there. I think that that that's really wonderful. And I would even go so far as to say to those of us who are listening, it's really important, **[06:15]** especially as LGBT people or feminists or divorcees or whoever you are, that you've been told that you're not allowed to be a Christian, quote unquote, or a person of faith that this isn't for you. A lot of our trans siblings have that experience. M >> um I have many experiences with folks both in East Africa and in Latin America of trans women telling me that they get rocks thrown at them or rocks thrown at their house if people hear them listening to gospel music or Christian music because they're told it's not for **[06:45]** them. So to those kinds of folks who have that wound, I want to be really clear that we are all under a system of white Christian supremacy. We were all raised with a morality that's based in Christianity regardless of your faith or not faith in Christianity or anything else. And because of that, it is our inheritance to claim Christianity because this is how we were taught to name God and name the divine and understand morality. So, nobody gets to take that away from you just because you **[07:15]** don't fit into their definition of what Christian is. And I feel like y'all came to our lands and raped our women and enslaved our people and therefore this is our birthright and it is y'all who have to make space for us and not the other way around. So I feel that way about evangelical. I feel that way about Christian. It doesn't mean that you have to bow down to a white blue-eyed Jesus as your Lord and Savior. You get the right to claim that because that was what formed you and how the language you were given. So why should we have to **[07:46]** move outside of our native language to talk about God just to accommodate other people's biased homophobic orientations of what they think God is that I could have a great conversation about how God is not on the other side. >> I love that though that I no notes fantastic I co-sign that statement. So let's get back to your story then. So what was it like kind of evolving from growing up in Appalachia to who you are today? Yeah. I think for many of us, we don't realize what is true about who we are **[08:18]** until we're faced with something different, right? So, I didn't know Appalachin was an I didn't even know Southern was an identity because this is before the internet. I know I was old, but I just I just didn't know. I was pretty sure because church told me that California was the seat of all evil and was going to fall into the ocean at any moment when God got around to it. Right. And apart from that, I was just in my own little world and I didn't realize things like we were poor. Like I didn't know because we ate out of the garden. **[08:49]** We shared food among community. It wasn't until I was a junior in high school that I even learned that I had qualified for free lunch my entire life but had never but we were a proud people and I always had food. And so, you know, it's just that kind of thing that you don't really realize, but forms deeply about your values, at least for me, about my values about money and community and how how you spend time and energy. And um the same thing was true about being southern. I learned southern was a thing when I left the south. And then I learned Appalachin or mountain **[09:20]** folk was another identity that's even very different from like the deep south or the coastal south. So, I'm learn I've learned a lot over time about that. And I think the same thing is true. The first kind of crack in that was when I was 15. I kissed a girl for the first time. She and I both went to the same church. Like we we created our whole own world, but I had never met anybody. I was pretty sure homosexuals like had like horns that were red coming out of their head and had a little tail. Like I **[09:52]** was really sure that it was such a decision >> that you just made because of addiction of some sort or some sort of demon possession. And it had just never been on the table for me. Like I wasn't one of those people who had crushes on my teachers or my friends. Like I had never had any of those experiences. So um that first experience of being like I would have told you yesterday something terrible and homophobic about this and I'm living it in my own body and my own life. And that yes was so powerful that **[10:23]** it went against 15 years of cultural upbringing. >> And that started the question of like if I feel the most alive and present and joyful and myself in this kind of relating and this is supposed to be evil and I talk to God all day every day and God doesn't have doesn't seem to be giving me any feedback that's like this is a bad thing, >> right? um then what else is true that I don't know and so that started the questions which feel like very much come **[10:55]** from mountain culture because we as a general group of body of people distrust institutions distrust power um you know we live into let me see and feel with my own hands with my own eyes what's true and right and good and really hold to that so I feel like that actually helped me along with being raised as an only child adored by elders because I was raised by somebody three generations older than I was. So, >> wow. >> I just feel like a lot coconspired for me to be willing to ask questions and **[11:26]** assume that my questions were valid. Um, also because I was raised around all women and women usually at the end of their life. So, I had a lot of >> empowerment in ways that other people I feel like particularly when they're raised girls are told to be quiet or to be subservient. I was raised in a community of really powerful women who didn't take on a kind of like hottie nature, but just were the people who got [ __ ] done over and over again all the time, including me and my great-grandmother who was 70 years old **[11:56]** when she took me as an 18-month-old. So, >> wow. >> We just come from a very sturdy stock of mountain folk and then on the other side, immigrants um that I wasn't raised around until later in my in my life. But I just feel like I was blessed in giving and be being given these messages about my own worth and value. And that started the willingness to go down that path. And then the next decade of my life after school was started with um supporting undocumented mostly undocumented newly arrived immigrants **[12:27]** from Latin America. And that formed me in a whole new way. Um, and then from there, you know, Divinity School, which was connected to my outrage at our LGBT community and not having access to God and having all of this intense self-hatred that came from one way or another, church or God or family connected to God and religion. So, it's been a journey of unfolding and the older I get, uh, the more I realize I don't know. I have a 15-year-old who **[12:58]** knows so much more than me in every sense of the word and knows she knows more than me. Um, but I find myself being more humble as I get older around not knowing and also being really excited about there's still being so much in the world that there is to learn and know. >> Yeah, that's really beautiful. Um, I was a professional drummer for a lot of years and the more I played, the more I realized how little I knew about my about my own instrument, right? all the different genres of music and influences and I understand that. Yet, it does kind **[13:28]** of go against the grain of a lot of what I think you and I at some point were taught. I'm not sure what it was like in your context, but in mine, you know, I was homeschooled very young and um was just taught that these fundamentals, these absolute truths about what happens when we die and how we achieve salvation and what God is like. And it was a real um I would say crisis of uh theology for me, not so much faith. I had no problem believing in God in Christ, but like what what what do I believe about this God and about this Jesus, you know? >> Yes. >> It was really **[13:58]** >> the analogy I use a lot is it's like growing up growing up in in the basement of a house. You don't know what's above ground. You're just kind of taught this is all there is. And for one reason or another, you eventually get the courage or you're forced up the stairs and you're expecting a desert wasteland where there's a bunch of zombies to kill and destroy. And instead you're in a huge house, like a massive house, a Christian thought, [laughter] like all these different rooms that you never knew existed. Black Liberation theology, queer theology, the the orthnodox church. What the heck is that? Right? The Catholic Church, like all these different rooms. You're like, "Whoa, **[14:29]** whoa, wait. Hold on. Stop." I was taught down there, that this was all there was, but there's so much more to explore. I'm What was that journey like for you? because I I know what it's like for me. But I'm kind of curious from your vantage point, all these different intersections um you know of your identity and who you are, your DNA, your experience, all coming to a very unique place. What was that journey like for you? Oh my gosh, that's such a fantastic question because you know when I went to divinity school, I got a call like I was sitting in a in a church Christmas Eve **[15:02]** service and I was fuming to God about how angry I was that so many of my community didn't have access to safe spiritual space to be a part of this faith that we were raised in. And God in God's most obnoxious way, as God has want to do, is like, "You're right. That's terrible. That's awful. There should be a place. There should be space. That is true." And then inevitably the next question is, "So what are we going to do about that, **[15:32]** right? Like [laughter] I laid this on your heart for a reason. This bothers you this much. What are you going to do about it?" And at and this is at 28 years old. And I was like, I got the call in that conversation for God to be like, just try, just try to apply to Divinity School. And even though I had been in social justice for more than a decade, I had never heard about feminist theology, black liberation theology, Latin American **[16:02]** liberation, like I had never heard about these things even though I had been in social justice for a decade in a very progressive town. And it was because I was doing human rights work and direct access and all that stuff. But I had visited church after church after church. And my only requirements were for me not to be the only brown person in the space. For it to be a little bit racially diverse, for them to be inclusive of my queerness and my family. And the last thing is for them not to beat me up every Sunday. But I wanted a **[16:33]** place where I could also go when I was celebrating something that would help me build build me up and make me able to do the hard work that I was doing all week long. And in the 13 years I did that searching, I never found a space even in a progressive city. And so when I got that call to Divinity School, I was like, there's no way in the world I'm nominous. I am a mama of a toddler. I am brown. I am a radical queer activist. >> You know, I'm not monogamous, as you said. Right. I'm like, I'm not I'm not **[17:05]** going to hide. I'm never going back in another closet and there's no way they're going to accept me. That was not true. But I didn't know that there was places. I wound up choosing Vanderbilt uh Divinity School in Nashville, Tennessee. And it was that process of I was it was about God empowering me to be brave enough to try to enter a world where I thought there would be no allies and I would be beginning that journey and ending that journey in a fight. And it was wanting spirit for our community **[17:37]** that badly and wanting to defend our communities for whom God had been weaponized that badly that I was willing to enter hostile space to try to get what we needed for our people to be able to survive and thrive because I knew that was what God wanted for our communities as well. And then when I got there and like semester 1 Bible 101 is being taught by a Jewish man and then my New Testament was taught by **[18:08]** re by Dr. AJ Lavine who was a Jewish New Testament scholar. It was this breaking open of like why have I never heard of any of this before? And I spent my time there just absorbing every possible thing I could about theology, interrogating the question of like what do I have to believe about Jesus to call myself a Christian? What all of these things? But I've spent my life since divinity school trying to create more accessible spaces, theological resources **[18:39]** that are free on Soul Forc's website that are trying to bridge that gap to be like, I don't need to say anything new. There have been biblicists and theologians for many, many, many decades now who have been publishing really brilliant work to challenge us and help us think differently about Christianity. >> And I don't have to invent [ __ ] I can really just take these things that are totally inaccessible and try to bring them down to the grassroots and the ground level for real people who need them. And I get really annoyed to be **[19:09]** totally honest with folks in the academy who are like, uh, Sodom and Gomorrah, it's not even about homosexuality. Can we just move on? And now there these very complicated theories that people have. It's delicious as a sapioexual, as in I get really excited about the thinking and the thoughts and the theories. That stuff is delicious and wonderful. But to poo poo on people who are trying to get back to a conversation to just do the basics that Sodom and Gomorrah is not about homosexuality or Paul did not **[19:41]** write every word of all of those books in the New Testament. Like it's basic for people who were advanced degrees in theology, whatever. But it is still not even accessible for 99% of the Christians and or Christian raised people that I talked to in East Africa, in Latin America, in Asia, like and the US South. Like it just doesn't even exist in their world. And so I'm like, how dare we leave that as like pedestrian and antiquated when it's **[20:12]** still impacting so many human beings lives and still the basis for really terrible laws like in Uganda where it's that Sodom and Gomorra is still the basis for the death penalty for homosexuality. You know what I'm saying? Like we're not done with it yet. >> Yes. And in the American context, the only version of that story you're given is that it's about homosexuality. Right. So there's a very wellunded conservative evangelical network that's been going on since the 70s really and moral majority stuff, right? That are really effective in espousing like fundamentalist **[20:44]** theology in really sexy ways, so to speak, right? They they can they can put it on social media. They can make it seem like, "Have you ever asked this question? Well, we have an answer." I mean, that was one of the things that I realized coming out of that basement was I was under the [laughter] I laugh saying it now, but you know, I was under the impression that like if if I was under the impression that Francis Chan was the more, you know, like progressive moderate uh evangelical thinker and like Matt Schindler was more conservative. And so if Francis Chan came to the conclusion that hell is eternal, well, it must be true because **[21:16]** [laughter] Francis if anyone would think the opposite be Francis Chan, right? And I say that for all the insiders to say like Francis Chan is still a product of the white evangelical machine. Of course he'll have that view. But that that was all I knew. Like to me Francis Chan was like in the corner of like the left-wing version of Christianity which is you know quite comical to say now. So you're absolutely right in what you're saying because and I've had a lot of I've been very fortunate >> uh Reverend Alba to to talk to a lot of amazing biblical scholars. everyone from **[21:46]** Bartman to Jennifer Bird to Angela Parker um do Dr. Adam Clark who was mentored by James Con himself and they've been really gracious coming on and kind of explaining on a very lay level things that that that that they've probably don't even think about anymore, right? They just kind of come out. But for folks like me and the audience, for you at one point, it's like, wait, are you're telling me >> that like I can renegotiate some of these texts and stories and that like what's going on behind the scenes isn't close to what I was told at all about **[22:17]** them. And I was sold this picture. this was like God's absolute word and if I went against this teaching I wasn't a Christian. But that's not true. That is for someone who has been and I use the term not in a pjorative way but frankly just brainwashed right for someone who's been brainwashed into white evangelical nationalism. That is like the most >> thoughtprovoking epiphany moment when you're like wait a second my world has been blown you know to hear that. >> Yes. And that's why we created Theologia **[22:48]** Simua, which is a Spanish language podcast. We're doing our first season in English, so folks in the US now can listen. And there's some amazing theologians, scholars, activists, uh, all theologically trained, but in different parts of our movements and society. But we have done now like 77 episodes, if I had that correct, with with queer and feminist theologians all over the Latin American continent, diaspora, Spanish speaking Caribbean etc. But for that exact same reason **[23:18]** because in Spanish there's an entire monopoly by the extreme right on all religious media. And so in 2020 when we started that platform and theo suenza means shameless theology that translates loosely to shameless theology. But it really is this derogatory term suensa that would sound if I was saying it in southern culture. Honey, have you no shame? As in go put on more clothes or stop talking so much or you know that's not what a young lady would do. Cross **[23:49]** your legs at the knees at the ankles, not the knees. Like those kinds of things. Um that's it's a word suena is something that's labeled to mostly to women that's mostly sexualized and told to be for us to be put in our place kind of thing. So we called it that because it was this idea of trying to push back around that that there's brilliant work being done in academic spaces. But for folks just everyday folks it's a life or death kind of conversation whether or not you think God hates you. Literally how you see everything in your life **[24:20]** changes if everything that happens as a queer person you think God is somehow behind that because God doesn't agree with your sexuality. It's a very different thing if you understand God as being right alongside you and suffering. And even if the thing doesn't get solved, you still face systemic oppression and exclusion. It's a very different lived reality. And it's survivable in very different ways and much more is possible spiritually if you don't spend your entire life thinking **[24:52]** you loving someone or you being attracted to someone is equating to your own either internal spiritual death or eternal suffering. >> Yeah, I love that. Um, okay, let's talk about white Christian nationalism for a second. Let's go there for a minute. Um, >> please. It's been really interesting and it's been kind of bewildering, but also I understand how to watch my own tradition just kind of fall down this like well I should back up. It's always been there but I think like any um any **[25:24]** semblance of like masking it has been just completely ripped off, right? And like the the very quiet parts are now out loud. And it's it's jarring. I'm not going to lie. Like it is jarring still this five, six years later out of white evangelicalism. jarring to watch my Sunday school teachers who taught me that Jesus loves the little children of the world uh argue with me in the Facebook comments that it's okay to bomb kids in Gaza. I'm like, do you hear yourself? [laughter] Like, you taught me this thing, right? >> And I'm just kind of curious for you, you know, as someone who is uh queer and **[25:56]** and did grow up in Appalachia and also is is is Latina. Um you know, what how do you read the moment that Ren as in the American context? like do you think that like there is um maybe a way out of this? Do you think this is what America has always been and like this is just kind of the cycle that we find ourselves in throughout human, you know, throughout American history? Give me your take. I'm just so curious. Yeah, that's that's a beautiful and hard question. And um I don't spend a lot of **[26:27]** time on white Christian nationalism because I think it's the current whack-a-ole version of an underlying ideology which we call white Christian supremacy. >> And I think that we have to really contend with the original sins of this nation and colonization before this nation. But in the context of US society, I I think there is more and more people that are willing to do the work and there are more and more people also who are fighting like hell to keep it how **[26:58]** it's always been in their mind, in their experience. And so when I talk about white Christian supremacy, I talk about American exceptionalism, capitalism, consumerism, imperial. I mean, as long as we keep calling God King of Kings and Lord of Lords and this feudalistic and monarchal kind of language, what do we expect people to aspire to if it isn't kings and you know, like Disney version of **[27:28]** love, right? Until we're real about how marriage came about, that had literally nothing to do with love, had everything to do with chivalry and European medieval money moving. And until we can understand that we I'm the white side of my family that we white people come out of a people that burned their women that burned their witches that called women who were independent of men and patriarchal structures evil and tried to eradicate them slash us. Until we **[28:00]** contend with those original sins, I think we're stuck in a cycle where we get to the logical conclusion which is what we're seeing right now. and that that parallel of the Roman Empire, including like just look at the architecture of the Roman columns and what our money looks like all of that is built in to help us already concede and be complicit to all of the things that we're seeing now. This is a very ugly ex **[28:30]** like exceptionally violent version of it, but it's always been there like you said. And I think for me when I think about it, it's like we have to spend time doing the healing work. So for those of us who have white ancestors, coming to terms with how colonization happened, how Christianizing and missionizing happened that disconnected us from our roots to the land and our ancestors and those ancestral traditions and stop calling them things witchcraft and just understand that was taken away from us. We didn't choose that **[29:02]** missionization missionization for most the most part as white people and then the consequences of living into that then become colonization of European superpowers into the rest of the world. And for those of us who come from colonized or enslaved peoples, recognizing that Christianity was a really important tool for many of our ancestors to try to get free. And before that, there were other spiritual practices that we did that helped connect us to each other, to the land, to our non-human relatives. And so, I **[29:34]** think what I'm reading of this moment is we are in this space of crumble and collapse. >> Yeah. And it's really important for those of us who do the work in our communities with our families, with our extended communities to try to hold and make the most of how we help and support people during this collapse and crumble. And at the same time, those of us who are called to it and those of us who are capable of it, damn well better being prepared for what happens next because at some point there's a turn. At some **[30:05]** point there's a shift. At some point there's a break. And in that moment is when I think I mean even now but as we get more and more there we have a choice of whether or not we're going to go back into the same cycle and recycle the same [ __ ] and put it in a different form and call it democracy and move forward or call it socialism or call it communism or call it whatever the hell you want to call it. But are we going to go back into the same structures with a different name and a different face? Or are we going to be strong enough **[30:36]** theologically interconnected with each other in an interdependent world, connected to the land and to the earth and to our natural resources and all of those things? Or are we going to cycle back again? So that moment is something that I'm thinking so strongly about of like how do I heal? How do I hold on to my own humanity tightly enough that I can still feel that my heart can still break every day for what I'm seeing? But that doesn't make me despondent or frozen in fear or unable to think about who I am **[31:06]** or who I want to be even in this moment and especially the moments to come. >> Yeah. No, that's good. Um, okay. I want to ask you a question. It's kind of a curveball and if you don't want to answer, I will edit this part out like it never happened. So, just just I I just I want to preface that. But, >> okay. Well, let me preface what you're about to say by saying don't ask me a question you don't want to know the answer to because I'll answer it. So, if you want to know the answer, go ahead and ask it, but you better be ready for the answer. I don't know what you're going to ask. That's just the rule. >> No, I I I I absolutely want to know the **[31:37]** answer from you. I I really want your vantage point, and there's a reason why I'm asking. I'm gonna try and flesh out this thought I've been having for a bit. I don't have all the right words, so just, you know, keep that in mind. But I I'm wondering what you think about white progressives. And I asked this because in my journey out of the basement, so to speak, right, I definitely have found myself in, you know, more democratic spaces. I was at the DNC last year, you know, ping around with people. At the same time, I'm kind of watching how Joe Biden is still using our tax dollars to fund the ongoing **[32:09]** genocide in Palestine. um sitting with the uncommitted movement outside when when they wouldn't be given a slot to even speak at the main stage or have any Palestinian voice. Right? So I found myself in this tension sometimes of like well in a world of Christian fascism that is taking over the MAGA the right wing right now in America I think that we obviously don't want them in power clearly but also the Democratic party in many ways still feels like like like the same the other side of the same kind of coin. still bent over to capitalism and **[32:40]** still has no problem funding genocide. And I've noticed, and again, this is just me, and you can say whatever you want, including saying it to me. I can take it. I want to learn. But I've noticed that sometimes in white progressive spaces, there's still a lot of whiteness going on, and they still will kind of not listen to voices of like black women, for example, or Latina women, for example. And I don't know what to do with that because >> I know a lot of people in this audience listening have probably been on this **[33:11]** journey with me kind of getting out of that basement breathing new air and certainly I don't want people to feel discouraged that you know >> being progressive isn't good. That's not what I'm saying. But also I think that like decolonization seems to be much more important than like becoming progressive especially in some of these more white centered spaces. And I say that as a white man in a deconstruction space that still has white men who are now ex-pangelical pastors, right? I know some of them and they're fine people, but I'm like I'm not sure this is it long term. I'm not sure if like we need more white men. I say this as someone who runs a podcast, you know, to be like **[33:42]** to be like [laughter] like like like the leaders of this stuff though, right? I'm just kind of curious your thoughts about like this idea. If you've seen it, if you thought about it and I don't know, swing away. You can say no wrong on my show, so just be you. Yeah, that's a great question. Okay, so I think many things. One, Christian supremacy teaches us to think in binaries. So it's either this or that. And I think on the other side, there's also a toxicity in our movement spaces that you're either good or bad. And the **[34:12]** good like either for us or against us, which again is the same binary logic of Christian supremacy. And so it's basically like you need to be, this frustrates the hell out of me. on the left, we get to this place where it's like, you need to be able to sign off on all 136 items and put your name in blood at the bottom. And if you ever violate any one of these things, you are out of the club in order to be considered our people, >> right? >> And on the other side, I feel like the right is like, you don't have a girlfriend, you're one of us. Let's talk **[34:44]** about how feminism is killing women's submission and ability to get women to marry men, whatever. like, "Oh, you care about babies? Great. Come over here to the pro-life movement because we care about babies." Like, it's just like, you have one tiny fringe connection to what they're talking about and they have a way to fold you completely in. So, I want to start by saying I do not believe in the binary thinking and I get frustrated sometimes in our movements where it's like all white people need to shut up and sit down and go sit in your **[35:15]** corner. And this may be very unpopular to say, "Fuck it. This is what I think." which is like we can't be like that. We have to have a broader space which means even if I don't like your ass, even if I think the way that you were raised, like I'm a Southerner. We were taught everybody above the Mason Dixon Line was a Yankee. And not even a Yankee, a damn Yankee, which I, you know, sometimes fall back into, I will admit. But it's like we have to understand that there is a multitude of experiences in every **[35:46]** identity and we actually need as many of those people to come together and we need to be kind, not permissive, but we need to be kind and rigorous in helping people have a path toward something else. So, do I think that progressive middle America is great? No, I do not think they're great. I do not find myself having things in common with them. I actually I homeschooled my daughter for the first all the way through eighth grade. **[36:17]** >> Um, and that is because I have so much more in common with the far right than I do with people in the middle. I raised my child in Appalachia, where I come from, on the lands that my people have been in for generations before they came over and colonized it. Um, and I feel like it was incredibly important for me for my child to be raised in an environment where queer and trans people were the norm, not the exception, where a brown mother was not um somebody who **[36:50]** was seen as tangential or powerless or subservient, etc., etc. And therefore, that meant for me that my whole life had to be rearranged around raising this baby in a place that I feel like is home and where I want her to feel like is home for her, but doing it in a way where our very leftist politics could be honored and seen as normal and not weird. And she wasn't having to fight that fight for me and for her family every day everywhere else. So I say all that to say I see I'll take at this **[37:22]** point I will take humanity and kindness wherever the hell I can get it because the lack of dehuman like of humanizing of real human beings when they are literally having people and babies and grandmothers kidnapped off the street like >> we are at that level where I will take anybody who can look at suffering of another human being and be like eh we shouldn't do that like that is such a like bottom of the barrel baseline, but we are actually there where it's like, so I have nothing bad to say about **[37:53]** people on a journey. >> And I think actually that we on the left, particularly those of us who are people of faith and purport to be folks of a moral conscience, have a responsibility as a people. I'm not saying every single person has to spend their energy doing this, but I do think we have a responsibility to be with people on a journey. And if somebody messes up my pronouns, but they don't mean me harm and they want to learn and they're trying to be respectful and they [ __ ] it up because it's new for them, then like for Christ's sake, can we like **[38:24]** take a breath and understand that that you know slight is not the same sight of somebody who wants our death. Like that is about and you know what that is about? That's about healing our own pain. That's about healing our own wounds so that we're strong enough to be able to say you said something really disparaging about me as somebody from the south or me as a woman or whatever and I see you trying and we most of us have come out of a place where we had to learn a thing and we didn't know. I mean **[38:55]** I consider myself a capitalist. I was like this is a great idea. You exchange people's services for the money that they will take for those services and it's a fair and equal balance exchange. I loved Atlas Shrugged and Rand like I was like this is this makes sense to me. Of course that's great as an ideological concept free from the reality of enslavement building an entire hemisphere on the backs of enslaved uh African indigenous people, right? Like, so I had to learn I had to learn what **[39:26]** those things were. And if people had been mean to me and excluded me, I wouldn't have been able to get where I am now. And now most people would consider me a an extremist or a leftist, you know, >> socialist, fill in the blank. But it's like I really just want to >> name that we should never be comfortable. We've always been taught that we are made in the image of God and that we should aspire to perfection like Jesus. I don't know that I agree that Jesus was perfect or that that that **[39:57]** ideal is something that we should aspire to. But that orientation of we're never done until we're dead. And I think even after that we're not done, right? But like we are on a journey as long as we can hold humility that we are still learning and especially learning to listen to other people and their lived experience and how do we honor what we learn and how do we believe people when they tell us their experience because that's the other thing. We don't believe people sometimes when they tell us their lived experience. So I think that's really important to just be for those of **[40:29]** us who can be on the journey with folks. We need to be on the journey with folks because the other side's been on the journey with folks for a long time getting them here. I think that's really well said because um how do I say that? You know, I feel like we're almost in two extremes sometimes. Like you said, it's either either this like purity test which of like you know from purity culture to purity politics, right? Or the other side's like, "Oh, Matt Gates, you have credible accusations of you um you know, sexually assaulting a minor. Um no problem. You want to speak to a bunch of teenagers at Turning Point USA?" It's like, "Okay, **[41:00]** guys." Like there's got to be somewhere in between. That's like certainly we don't want that level of anyone can join what we're doing but also if I have one thing wrong or if I have a different approach to an issue that we agree on >> suddenly it's a problem right and I look I it's not for I'm not going to solve it on this podcast and I'm not be able to fix everything uh in a couple words but there is something about and I here's my hypothesis to this especially in like the exangelical space I think the reason why it's easy for a lot of us and I say this to myself as **[41:31]** I've been guilty of this. So, I'll just use me as an example. I think when you deconstruct and you realize how um you know how much you were just lied to and just taught a really false view of like even Christianity, you end up projecting your own disgust at yourself to your neighbor who you think should be there sooner, should be farther along on the path because you're there now and you can't stand the sight of someone in that space. because it reminds you of it reminds you of how you were a few years **[42:03]** ago and you can't think about that. So, I think that there is some kind of like psychological projection that we put onto other people um because we want them to be where we are now. And that's just not that's not accurate. I mean, you know, the the the reason I became queer affirming was not because someone on Facebook called me a bigoted [ __ ] or because I was called a fascist or because I was called homophobic. It was my gay friend, my first ever coworker at Starbucks who was a gay man. His name is Joey. I have permission to share his stories. I share it all the time. And he **[42:33]** was the [snorts] first gay man I ever met. And I was I was 18. I was like, "Oh my god, he's gay. Oh my god, like he's going to want to sleep with me. And he's just so depraved." You know, all the things that [laughter] you're taught about gay people, right? He's probably so promiscuous. And he was an atheist. I'm like, "Oh my god." And he's an atheist. [laughter] Like there's no coming back from this, you know? And we end up talking and it turns out he's a freaking human being and he volunteers in his city more than I do. and he has a better ethic about like morality than some of my Christian friends. And he **[43:03]** starts asking me questions. He holds space for me. Those were some of the earliest seeds that were planted when I was 18 that led me down a path that to to end up where I am now. It wasn't by being called this these names, right? And I think that for folks listening out there, I understand the rage and the anger that you have. I feel it every day. I watch I'm watching my immigrant neighbor be kidnapped and I'm like, "What the [ __ ] is going on?" I mean, really, that's what I think. I I I told my wife the other day, for the record, in case you're listening, government, this I'm not going to do this, but I told my wife, I'm like, if I see an ICE **[43:35]** agent, I might go to prison. Like, I am just so angry. I'm I'm ready to go, you know? Uh, thank God I follow a nonviolent Jesus, but my goodness, like I am I'm I'm there. [laughter] >> And so, I understand the rage and anger that we have. But it's really important if we're going to build better paths forward, like you said earlier, Reverend Alba, that we learn from the past. There are brilliant theologians and and people who have laid wonderful foundations that we should be learning from and then also inviting people into being >> the change that we want to see and repentance takes time for some people. **[44:06]** It takes time to undo years of indoctrination. You know, it takes years to undo these neurons that have been wired a certain way to see your queer neighbor as the other or your immigrant neighbor as the other or the liberal neighbor as the other. It takes time and we have to find a way to hold space for both >> especially when you're constantly reinforced in that binary thinking like it takes a lot to hold the both and so if we're trying to hold there is both a moderate progressive middle of the ground who's going to want to rebuild **[44:37]** democracy in exactly the image that it was before and we want to hold that. if we can step out of the binary thinking and be like, "All right, that we're grateful for folks who want a democracy because Lord knows we're not even there anymore, right?" But the other side is like we can hold a very wide diversity of tactics. I can be over here being my full queer ass self as a pastor, cursing on the radio, whatever, whatever. And we can like there's space for all of us. And I appreciate, you know, my granny **[45:09]** used to always say, "You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar." And I think that's this case too is like it matters telling our stories, having spaces to amplify human beings and our real experiences matter. And it is about that healing part of like the more healed I am, the more I can forgive myself for where I come from, what I was taught, maybe some of the terrible things I said to others. >> Yes. Then the more solid I am and being like that's my stuff and I commit to work on my stuff, the less I'm going to **[45:41]** need to project that onto somebody else and police them in all of their work. And I do think you're right, like it's our job at this moment to make the movement irresistible. It shouldn't just be >> cuz the anger burns us alive. The despair makes us unable to move forward. It's really the like this is the call out to all the artists, all of the musicians, all of the creatives. It's like this is our moment. I've been telling I I showed up on a podcast recently um of somebody who was a big **[46:12]** gamer, Dungeons and Dragons, and I was like, it's not my world, but I love gamers. I love Dungeons and Dragons. I love the roleplay. I love the cosplay because they're working this muscle of creativity and world building. And we need you in this moment because the more weird and creative we can be, I'm in love with the whole like the frogs in Portland and the alligators in Florida. It's called >> tactical frivolity. I've learned this **[46:43]** phrase tactical frivolity. And I think that's something that is so true of like who doesn't want to go to a salsa class in Portland, right? And I'm like, yes, do the salsa classes in front of the ICE detention center. It's like we have to be calling people into community, calling people into a different possibility, calling people into a moral alignment, but not in a way that's like you suck if you don't 100% agree. It's like, come taste this delicious food. Come try this out. And what we're asking **[47:14]** on the other side is to be responsible for your beliefs and the natural consequences of your beliefs. So if you believe in American exceptionalism and that God has made us a city set on a hill and that's specifically for white people, this is the logical conclusion that other people are going to be dehumanized. So what needs to change about what you believe so that we can be whole and integral people regardless of what faith we are because it is that integrity that makes us feel strong and powerful and peaceful and settled in our own truth and our own beings. And I **[47:44]** think a lot of the anger on the other side is actually coming from a disassociation with what we say we believe. What all the folks on the right, they say they believe one thing and then they behave in a different way. And I think that that tears us apart on the inside. And that anger then shows up in really awful ways. But not because they are awful people, but because they can't figure out how to get themselves congruent again. And that's what the work of faith is all about is helping folks align our actions and our words **[48:16]** and our faith and our spirits with what is true about what we say we believe which is going to require some sacrifice. It's going to require us to divest from some of our aspirational goals around money and capitalism. It's going to require us to divest from some of this like exhaustion culture where you work yourself to death. It's gonna require us to open space, including sometimes our homes. Like, do we know what we're prepared to do if people need to be hidden in this country? Are we prepared to break the law when the law **[48:47]** says that children can be separated from their parents just because of their documentation status or their perceived documentation status? We have to be doing that work to prep ourselves, even those of us on the left, to be like, what am I prepared to do and not do based on what I say I believe and who I say I follow. >> I totally agree. I think that's wonderful. Um, yeah, it's it's it's really good stuff. Talk to me about uh Soul Force. You're the executive director of that. What is Soul Force? Is it is it a nonprofit? **[49:18]** >> It is a nonprofit. It is not a religious-based organization, but we work at the intersections of faith, gender, sexuality, and white Christian supremacy. And we've been around for almost 30 years. We were started by Reverend Dr. Mel White and his husband Gary Nixon. Folks may know him because he was a ghost writer for Jerry Fwell and some of the folks on the right. He wrote a very famous book called Stranger at the Gate about being gay and Christian in America um in the late 90s. and uh we just showed up to cause hell **[49:51]** and to try to raise awareness around inclusion in faith spaces. So we did um you know different actions at the Vatican, at the Southern Baptist Convention in New Orleans, many times at the Methodist General Conference. We did a bus ride multiple times around the country to do talkins and conversations at Christian college campuses. That was all in the late 90s and early 2000s. And so we kind of had this reputation for being fearless uh around the Bible and **[50:22]** theology and God. And so I started the organization 12 years ago. I've been ed for the past six. And basically we are an organization that works on the ideologies of white Christian supremacy that are the foundational underlying ideologies that so much of everything else comes from. And so we do that through things like >> um helping queer and trans folks reclaim spirituality and heal through our church of the queerly beloved which is an experimental kind of practice space that centers on drag and um trans baptisms **[50:56]** and doing a reverse altar call where we ask for forgiveness on behalf of the institutions that have ordained us um to the community when we were told that we were sinful as LGBT people and try to do a symbolic apology ology and taking back of like that's not yours to carry. That's actually the institution's um spoken word, lots of art coming out of our community that that is honest about what we have been what we've received and also about celebrating our queer and trans people, centering them rather than having them just be tangential. It's **[51:28]** also through theological resources that are free and accessible online on things like the truth about Sodom and Gomorrah um gender diversity in the Bible, the gender of God and creation, abortion and Mary's choice. So, different things like that that just are ways that folks can begin thinking about the Bible differently, especially if they're queer or trans or somebody who needs reproductive justice kind of health care, things like that. And then we do these kind of podcasts. So now we have the spir the love letters with reverend **[51:58]** sex which is a segment that comes out every week that's a reflection from a pastor me specifically kind of talking into this moment that are really short 15 20 minutes and then we have the theoes inva which started and went all the way through Latin America and now is in the US and we're doing it in English for those of us in diaspora who maybe don't have access to Spanish. So we have lots of things around. We have a book coming out on some of these concepts. We do a lot of work with uh educational institutions. We do strategic calls with **[52:28]** community groups who need help thinking through a religious response to some of the anti-trans, anti-quer, anti-women narratives that are coming out of the church and the far right. So, we do all kinds of things. We're a small but mighty team. Um, but that's all for us almost 30 years in now. >> Wow. I love that. That's really amazing. Well, uh, Reverend Alba, I appreciate you making time to come on the podcast. Really great talking to you. I thanks to Bradley Onishi, a mutual of ours who got us connected. I want to have you back on in the future for sure. There's a lot **[52:58]** that I think we all can learn from you and what you have to offer. So, thank you. If people want to follow your work, uh where can they find you? Are you on social media channels? Is there a podcast? Please plug everything. >> Yes. Uh soulforce.org or my website reverend sex.com. On social media, we're soulforce.org or reverend sex. So you can find us there. Um, the suenza or shameless theology has a weekly podcast now in English. Love letters with Reverend Sex is also on the **[53:30]** same channel and the other places that you get your podcast. And yeah, just come find us. We're all over the place. You'll find us in lots of places. I'm also part of the Sexual Liberation Collective, which you can find online. And um, we do all kinds of cool work in the world. >> Awesome. I love it. Well, thanks again for coming on. We'll talk again soon. >> It's been a pleasure.