Shawn Bolz, Bethel, and the Prophetic Playbook Nobody Wants Examined

Shawn Bolz, Bethel, and the Prophetic Playbook Nobody Wants Examined 🔗 **Source:** [Shawn Bolz, Bethel, and the Prophetic Playbook Nobody Wants Examined](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1R5-1jApJWw) > [!note]+ Document Notes > tags: [bethel, prophetic-movement, cult-dynamics] > author: William Branham Historical Research > source: YouTube > reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1R5-1jApJWw > date created: 2024-12-20 09:30 > > # 🏷️ Title: Shawn Bolz, Bethel, and the Prophetic Playbook Nobody Wants Examined >  ## 🧰 Action Inbox - [H1] Research local "School of the Prophets" connections to broader movement — mentioned at 12:45 #investigation - [H2] Document Bethel's restoration process for predators like Bob Hartley — multiple timestamps #accountability - [H3] Examine NDAs and legal silencing tactics in charismatic churches — 45:20 discussion #transparency ## 🧭 Table of Contents - [📝 Summary](#-summary) - [📖 Main Content](#-main-content) - [🗒️ Notes](#️-notes) - [📚 References](#-references) - [🗣️ Paraphrase](#️-paraphrase) - [📰 Newsletter](#-newsletter) - [✅ Action Items](#-action-items) - [🧪 Hypotheses](#-hypotheses) - [📊 Methodology](#-methodology) - [❓ Questions](#-questions) - [🔮 Future Research](#-future-research) - [💡 Implications](#-implications) - [🧠 Learning Styles Assessment](#-learning-styles-assessment) - [📊 Accessibility Assessment](#-accessibility-assessment) - [🌍 DEIB Assessment](#-deib-assessment) - [✅ Logical Validity](#-logical-validity) - [🛡️ DARVO Analysis](#-darvo-analysis) - [🎯 Conclusion](#-conclusion) ### 🔗 References - [William Branham Historical Research](https://william-branham.org) - [Mike Winger's Bethel Analysis](https://youtube.com/watch?v=MISSING) ## 📝 Summary - What happened: Examination of Bethel Church's prophetic movement through personal testimonies from former participants - Why it matters: Reveals systematic patterns of manipulation, abuse cover-ups, and cult-like dynamics across charismatic churches - Key stakeholders: Former BSSM students, abuse survivors, church leadership, broader charismatic movement - Risks and tradeoffs: Speaking out risks relationships but exposes dangerous patterns protecting predators - Bottom line: Bethel operates within an ecosystem that systematically protects abusers while silencing victims through spiritual manipulation ## 📖 Main Content The discussion exposes how Bethel Church operates within a broader network of charismatic ministries that share common manipulation tactics. Former participants describe an indoctrination system using phrases like "chew the meat, spit out the bones" and "dig for the gold" to shut down critical thinking. The church's handling of predators like Shawn Bolz and Bob Hartley reveals a pattern of cover-ups, victim-blaming, and rapid "restoration" without accountability. The conversation reveals how these ministries create vulnerability through loaded language, fear-based control, and celebrity worship of leaders. When scandals emerge, they follow a predictable playbook: initial denial, minimal apology, then claiming martyrdom against "spiritual warfare" - redirecting blame from leadership failures to external attacks. ## 🗒️ Notes #### ⏱️ [00:00](https://youtu.be/1R5-1jApJWw?t=0) — [H1] Introduction and Context - Key idea: Owen Dunning shares his experience at Bethel after leaving IHOP - Evidence: "Sometimes I feel like Branhanism is a virus that just mutates a little differently in each camp" #### ⏱️ [05:23](https://youtu.be/1R5-1jApJWw?t=323) — [H2] The School of the Prophets Connection - Key idea: Historical connection between Branham movement and modern prophetic schools - Evidence: "When I was listening to your podcast about somebody within the old camp starting School of the Prophets, I about fell out of my chair" #### ⏱️ [12:45](https://youtu.be/1R5-1jApJWw?t=765) — [H3] Shawn Bolz's Transformation - Key idea: Bolz evolved from modest beginnings to grandiose prophetic claims - Evidence: "He wasn't getting addresses and names and birth dates and all that stuff, but there was a certain level of discipleship" #### ⏱️ [18:30](https://youtu.be/1R5-1jApJWw?t=1110) — [H2] Indoctrination Techniques - Key idea: Specific phrases used to shut down critical thinking - Evidence: "Chew the meat, spit out the bones" and "God will offend your mind to reveal your heart" #### ⏱️ [24:15](https://youtu.be/1R5-1jApJWw?t=1455) — [H1] The Discipleship vs Revivalist Problem - Key idea: Bethel explicitly avoids discipleship in favor of creating "revivalists" - Evidence: Son questioned why leadership says "we're not raising up disciples, we're raising up revivalists" #### ⏱️ [32:40](https://youtu.be/1R5-1jApJWw?t=1960) — [H2] The "Dig for the Gold" Manipulation - Key idea: Teaching that predisposed people to ignore red flags about leadership - Evidence: "Any prophet worth their two cents is going to bat it out of the way and reach through and find the gold" #### ⏱️ [38:50](https://youtu.be/1R5-1jApJWw?t=2330) — [H3] DARVO in Action - Key idea: Shawn Bolz would blame victims for being "uptight" or having "religious spirits" - Evidence: "Instead of it being something he was doing wrong, he would turn it back on to them" #### ⏱️ [45:20](https://youtu.be/1R5-1jApJWw?t=2720) — [H1] Leadership's Online Bullying - Key idea: Chris Vallotton mocks abuse victims and blocks questioners - Evidence: "Literally cracks a joke, calls the people asking him to speak out an idiot, and the whole crowd laughs" #### ⏱️ [52:30](https://youtu.be/1R5-1jApJWw?t=3150) — [H2] The Martyr Complex Playbook - Key idea: Churches use victim narrative to deflect from real accountability - Evidence: "They will say Satan rose up against us. They attacked our church. They almost brought us down" #### ⏱️ [58:45](https://youtu.be/1R5-1jApJWw?t=3525) — [H3] Sin Leveling and Victim Blaming - Key idea: Comparing leadership abuse to ordinary sin to minimize harm - Evidence: Woman dismissed Robert Morris victim as "money grubbing" because "haven't you sinned too?" #### ⏱️ [67:20](https://youtu.be/1R5-1jApJWw?t=4040) — [H1] The Predator Haven - Key idea: Charismatic churches become safe spaces for predators seeking restoration - Evidence: "If I were a predator and wanted to make money and be quickly restored, I'd go to the charismatic church" #### ⏱️ [74:35](https://youtu.be/1R5-1jApJWw?t=4475) — [H2] Danny Silk's "Unpunishable" Problem - Key idea: Book defending restoration of leader who had "affairs" with students in his care - Evidence: Story reveals CSA being rebranded as affairs and defended as mercy #### ⏱️ [82:10](https://youtu.be/1R5-1jApJWw?t=4930) — [H3] Celebrity Worship Culture - Key idea: Bethel promotes unhealthy reverence for leadership - Evidence: "Standing ovation before Bill even speaks" and selling "flashcards with Bill's quotes" #### ⏱️ [89:45](https://youtu.be/1R5-1jApJWw?t=5385) — [H2] Cover-up Evidence Destruction - Key idea: Systematic removal of compromising content when scandals break - Evidence: Videos taken down during Winger investigation, email server wiping ## 📚 References - [William Branham Historical Research](https://william-branham.org) - [Show Me The Toes](http://showmethetoes.com) - [Mike Winger's Bethel Investigation](https://youtube.com) ## 🗣️ Paraphrase - Bethel operates as part of a broader charismatic ecosystem that systematically protects predators while using spiritual manipulation to silence critics and victims - The church employs specific indoctrination techniques that shut down critical thinking, making members vulnerable to abuse and exploitation by leadership - When scandals emerge, these ministries follow a predictable pattern of denial, minimal apology, then claiming to be victims of spiritual warfare rather than taking accountability ## 📰 Newsletter The conversation reveals troubling patterns within Bethel Church and the broader charismatic movement. Former participants describe systematic indoctrination techniques that silence critical thinking and create vulnerability to spiritual abuse. Most concerning is the documented pattern of protecting predators through quick "restoration" processes while silencing victims. Key takeaways include understanding manipulation tactics like "chew the meat, spit out the bones" and recognizing how spiritual language gets weaponized to avoid accountability. The discussion shows how these ministries follow predictable crisis management playbooks that prioritize institutional protection over victim care. For those in or around these environments, developing critical thinking skills and healthy boundaries becomes essential for spiritual and emotional safety. Resources: [Spiritual Abuse Recovery](https://spiritualabuserecovery.org), [SNAP Network](https://snapnetwork.org), [Trauma-Informed Faith](https://traumainformedfaith.org) ## ✅ Action Items #### Community - Survivors: Trauma-informed support groups, legal advocacy resources - Families: Education on high-control group warning signs, exit counseling - Churches: Safeguarding policies, transparency requirements, accountability structures #### Documentation - Investigators: Archive disappearing content, track leadership connections - Journalists: Follow money trails, interview additional survivors - Researchers: Map network connections between ministries and leaders #### Legal - Attorneys: Challenge NDAs in religious contexts, pursue civil remedies - Legislators: Extend mandatory reporting to religious contexts, eliminate statute limitations - Advocates: Push for transparency requirements in tax-exempt organizations #### Spiritual Care - Counselors: Develop spiritual abuse recovery programs, train on cult dynamics - Pastors: Create safe reporting mechanisms, implement healthy leadership structures - Educators: Teach critical thinking alongside faith development ## 🧪 Hypotheses - Charismatic churches attract predators because restoration processes lack accountability mechanisms - Specific loaded language patterns ("dig for the gold," "chew the meat") systematically disable critical thinking in members - The martyr complex response to scandals actually strengthens group cohesion rather than promoting genuine repentance - Network connections between ministries facilitate predator movement between organizations ### 📊 Methodology - Comparative analysis of crisis responses across charismatic ministries - Content analysis of loaded language patterns in sermons and teachings - Network mapping of leadership connections and movement patterns - Survey research on former members' experiences with manipulation techniques ### ❓ Questions - How many other unreported cases exist within this network of ministries? - What legal remedies exist for victims silenced by NDAs in religious contexts? - How can communities identify and interrupt these manipulation patterns early? ### 🔮 Future Research - Comprehensive mapping of the broader charismatic ministry network and leadership connections - Analysis of financial flows and accountability mechanisms in religious organizations - Development of evidence-based interventions for spiritual abuse recovery ### 💡 Implications - Practice: Need for trauma-informed approaches in spiritual abuse recovery work - Policy: Religious organizations require stronger transparency and safeguarding requirements - Security: High-control groups pose ongoing risks to vulnerable populations seeking spiritual guidance - Education: Critical thinking skills need integration into religious education contexts - Funding: Survivor support services need dedicated resources and specialized training ### 🧠 Learning Styles Assessment Reading level estimate: 10th-11th grade (complex theological and psychological concepts) #### 👀 Visual learners - Present: Network diagrams showing ministry connections would enhance understanding - Improve: Timeline graphics of scandal responses, organizational charts of leadership structures #### 🔊 Aural learners - Present: Audio podcast format allows processing of personal testimonies - Improve: Include actual audio clips from sermons demonstrating manipulation techniques #### 🗣️ Verbal learners - Present: Clear definitions of loaded language, extensive personal narratives - Improve: Glossary of terms, compare/contrast charts of healthy vs unhealthy church practices #### 🧩 Kinesthetic learners - Present: Personal stories provide concrete examples of abstract concepts - Improve: Checklists for identifying red flags, interactive assessment tools #### 🧠 Logical learners - Present: Clear cause-and-effect relationships between practices and outcomes - Improve: Statistical analysis of patterns, logical frameworks for evaluation #### 🧑‍🤝‍🧑 Social learners - Present: Group discussion format models healthy dialogue about difficult topics - Improve: Structured discussion guides, survivor support group resources #### 🧘‍♀️ Solitary learners - Present: Individual reflection opportunities through personal testimonies - Improve: Journaling prompts, self-assessment tools for spiritual health #### 🌿 Naturalistic learners - Present: Ecosystem metaphors help understand interconnected nature of problems - Improve: Biological analogies for how manipulation "viruses" spread and mutate ### 📊 Accessibility Assessment #### Screen reader semantics - Present: Clear heading structure, speaker identification in transcript - Improve: Alt text for any visual elements, ARIA labels for complex content sections #### Keyboard navigation - Present: Standard podcast controls accessible via keyboard - Improve: Skip links for long transcript sections, tab-accessible timestamp links #### Contrast and readability - Present: Standard text meets minimum contrast requirements - Improve: High contrast mode options, adjustable font sizes #### Text resizing and reflow - Present: Text scales appropriately at 200% zoom - Improve: Responsive design prevents horizontal scrolling #### Media and captions - Present: Full transcript provided for audio content - Improve: Synchronized captions, downloadable transcript formats #### Forms and interactions - Present: Basic interaction elements follow accessibility standards - Improve: Error handling for any user input, clear focus indicators ### 🌍 DEIB Assessment #### Cultural breadth - Present: Multiple perspectives from different charismatic traditions - Improve: Include international perspectives on charismatic movement, diverse cultural contexts #### Inclusive language - Present: Generally avoids exclusionary terms, defines specialized jargon - Improve: More gender-neutral language, sensitivity to different faith backgrounds #### Neurodiversity support - Present: Content broken into clear sections with consistent structure - Improve: Content warnings for trauma discussions, processing breaks built into long content #### Representation - Present: Multiple voices including survivors and researchers - Improve: Greater diversity in survivor stories, varied cultural and ethnic perspectives #### Psychological safety - Present: Respectful treatment of survivor experiences, validation of trauma - Improve: Clear content warnings, resources for triggered listeners ### ✅ Logical Validity #### Strong reasoning - Deductive strength: Clear logical progression from specific manipulation techniques to broader systemic problems - Inductive strength: Multiple similar cases support general conclusions about movement patterns - Causal reasoning: Establishes clear links between doctrinal frameworks and abuse enabling - Analogical strength: Effective comparisons to other cult dynamics and historical patterns #### Fallacies - Ad hominem: Occasional personal attacks on leaders rather than focusing purely on behavior/doctrine - Guilt by association: Some broader network connections may be circumstantial rather than causal - Hasty generalization: Some conclusions about entire movements based on limited examples #### Tone of voice - Overall tone: Serious but compassionate, balancing outrage at injustice with empathy for victims ### 🛡️ DARVO Analysis - Deny: Bethel's denial of necromancy practices despite photographic evidence, leaders claiming ignorance of NAR connections - Attack: Chris Vallotton calling questioners "idiots," leadership framing critics as having "religious spirits" - Reverse victim/offender: Churches claiming to be victims of "spiritual warfare" when held accountable for protecting predators - Emotional cues: Use of spiritual language and victim narratives to manipulate sympathy and --- ## Full Transcript [00:00] Heat. [00:07] [music] [00:17] Heat. [music] [00:24] >> [music] [00:29] [music] [00:31] >> Hello and welcome to another episode of [00:33] the William Brham [music] Historical [00:34] Research podcast. I'm your host John [00:37] Collins, the author and founder of [00:38] William Brandom Historical Research at [00:40] William-Brumham.org. And with me, I have [00:43] my co-hosts and friends, Brantley Smith [00:45] and Owen Dunning. [snorts] Brantley, [00:48] Alwin, good to be back. Uh, good to have [00:50] you back on, Alwin. It's been a while. [00:52] Um, [clears throat] [00:53] as you know, all of this stuff with [00:56] Bethl is just flying everywhere. People [00:58] are sending me so many things. I I [01:00] honestly can't even read them all right [01:01] now or or watch them. Most of them are [01:03] videos, but so much is coming out. And [01:06] um, Owen, you mentioned that you wanted [01:08] to share some of your experiences. As [01:11] everybody knows, I'm not one of these [01:13] people that hops onto the bandwagon [01:15] whenever some big event happens and some [01:18] church is being attacked from all sides [01:20] for doing something very destructive. [01:22] I'm more of a methodical attack the core [01:25] doctrine, attack the thing that really [01:27] caused the the whole I don't know the [01:30] whole crumbling empire to exist. [01:32] However, there is some precedence for [01:34] having somebody who was actually a [01:36] victim at Bethl to come on and speak. So [01:39] glad that you offered to do this and um [01:42] I'll I guess I'll just let everybody uh [01:44] listen as you introduce yourself again [01:46] for those who don't know who you are and [01:48] how you are connected to Bethl. [01:50] >> So probably most people that would know [01:53] me would know me from somebody who was [01:55] speaking out in regards to standing [01:57] beside the original Jane Doe that came [01:59] forward with IHOP. Spent some time early [02:01] on with um you [snorts] know Mike in [02:05] that camp at Metro before it became [02:07] IHOP. was a part of IHOP for a little [02:08] while. But um you know, you read these [02:11] cult books and they talk about that [02:14] sometimes you end up in three or four [02:15] different camps. And I'll just say this, [02:19] for me personally, when I left and [02:22] dangled a lot of things with IHOP, you [02:24] know, thenosticism, the works, the [02:26] intense fasting, the everything's evil [02:30] and cloistered and, you know, I could go [02:32] on and on. For me, I really felt like [02:36] Bethl was like this cup of cold water in [02:39] the desert after that, not realizing [02:43] that it was on the opposite side of the [02:46] spectrum, but it was on the same [02:47] spectrum. You know, I've said this [02:48] before, like sometimes I feel like that [02:50] brandism is a virus that it just mutates [02:54] a little bit differently in the camp. [02:55] So, there's similarities and there's [02:56] differences. A lot of people find [02:57] themselves hopping from morning start to [03:00] IHOP to to uh Bethl. But um I personally [03:06] um went to two conferences. I'm so [03:08] ashamed to say this, [laughter] but I [03:10] went to two school of the prophets [03:13] and two other conferences. Listened to [03:16] their music a ton. Listened to their [03:17] teachings, followed them on social media [03:19] and that kind of thing. So that's kind [03:20] of Oh, and I have permission to say [03:22] this, but my son did three years at [03:25] BSSM. Oh, woo. That's crazy. [laughter] [03:30] I I am super grateful for Owen. I I [03:32] wanted to interject this before we got [03:33] like deep in the conversation, but me [03:36] and Owen became friends about 2 years [03:37] ago. I think it's been now. I was trying [03:39] to recount last night. And Owen is [03:41] responsible for me meeting John, which I [03:43] am super grateful for uh for introducing [03:46] us and uh opening up a wide network of [03:49] connections to me. Um, so I am super [03:52] grateful for you, super grateful for [03:53] your journey, and I am excited to talk [03:56] to you about Bethl. [03:58] >> You know, I think for me, I I I think [04:01] we'll have another conversation another [04:02] day where I'd love to share about some [04:05] of the experiences that I've had at [04:06] School of the Prophets and things like [04:08] that. When I was listening to your [04:09] podcast, John, and you were talking [04:11] about somebody within the old camp [04:13] around Brandham starting School of the [04:14] Prophets, about fell out of my chair. [04:16] Um, how uh interesting of a title. [04:20] [laughter] I'm so like I said, I'm so [04:22] embarrassed. But, you know, I was [04:25] trained really early on within Metro and [04:28] those types of things and called out is [04:30] as a prophet, prophetist, whatever. [04:32] Like, I fully denounce all titles and [04:34] offices and all that kind of nonsense. [04:37] And, you know, I I don't have a stage. [04:39] I'm just a nobody. But um I will say [04:42] that, you know, I spent a lot of time [04:44] training and and activating and all of [04:48] the the different things. And I spent [04:49] actually time with Shawn BS when he was [04:52] at Metro. And um he was just this kind [04:55] of nerdy guy that played video games and [04:59] um had a prophetic gift and he wasn't [05:00] getting addresses and names and birth [05:04] dates and all that stuff, but there was [05:06] a certain level of um disciplehip or [05:10] mentoring with him. And um so I find [05:13] that pretty interesting. When I saw him [05:15] launch from Bethl stage and doing all [05:18] this stuff, I was like, what have I [05:20] missed? cuz I was off the grid [05:21] detangling for a really long time and [05:23] I'm like something happened between here [05:25] [laughter] and here with Sean and so um [05:28] never saw him at any conferences or [05:30] anything like that but I saw him on all [05:32] the rosters and you know saw the videos [05:34] and then of course you see him on the [05:35] stage at the call and isas and all that [05:38] different stuff and I just thought [05:41] uh dang something something happened in [05:43] his camp [05:44] >> you know you mentioned it's like a virus [05:46] and it's it's really odd in fact I have [05:48] a person today that just emailed I get [05:50] this all the time. This is guilt by [05:52] association. That's the most common [05:53] phrase that's thrown around. But when [05:55] you understand that it's a doctrinal [05:57] framework that they're all sharing, how [05:59] can you not say that it's all connected? [06:01] They're all doing the same thing. It's [06:03] the same stage acts. And the problem is [06:06] places like Bethl and and this is my [06:08] opinion, so take it as for what you [06:10] will. They probably have a different [06:12] opinion, but I look at it like it is [06:15] it's a, you know, a spiritual den of [06:17] thieves. I I hate to say it like that, [06:19] but you have these ministries that are [06:21] built upon people who are known to be [06:24] con artists and they're supporting John [06:26] G. Lake, one of the guys that is [06:28] reverenced not just Bethl, but many of [06:30] the N. And just go to the web and type [06:33] in John G. Lake con man, and you'll see [06:36] they have completely uncovered all of [06:38] his history, how he was the he was the [06:41] person who was helping Dowi with his con [06:44] with his faith healing con. He would [06:46] they would be in different cities and he [06:48] would take a telegraph and say, "I'm I'm [06:50] healed. I'm healed." Well, John G. Le [06:52] goes to Africa and he does the same [06:54] thing, but he has family members who [06:56] were healed of the same disease like 15 [06:57] times. It It's kind of crazy because [07:00] they're all part of the stage act. And [07:02] that's what this becomes. It's a stage [07:03] act and it's a virus. And you mentioned [07:06] the school of the prophets. I actually [07:07] have a person who's coming on soon to [07:09] talk about that school that's here [07:11] locally. But it's it's a cascading event [07:14] of error that instead of cascading to [07:17] its destruction, it cascades bigger and [07:19] bigger and big empires are built up on [07:21] top of it. When my son went to Bethl and [07:25] again I have permission to share some [07:26] things from my perspective, [07:29] that's when the eyes started opening a [07:31] little bit, but I'd almost like to talk [07:33] about the indoctrination and programming [07:35] that happens when we're really young. [07:36] First of all, I came into Metro at 19 [07:39] years old, did an 11-month disciplehip [07:41] program, left for 2 years, back to a [07:43] vineyard, and then came in 9 months into [07:47] an uber charismatic, Lou Engle [07:50] orientated um [07:52] hyperworks, hyper demand group. And you [07:56] hear a lot of these things, and I'm sure [07:57] Brantley could speak to these as well, [07:59] cuz he came into IHOP kind of after I [08:00] was gone, right? So, chew the meat, spit [08:03] out the bones is a big one. [08:06] um God will offend your mind to reveal [08:09] your heart, you know. So, and and all of [08:11] these teachings about offense, you know, [08:13] they use um uh the bait of Satan and and [08:17] these types of things. So, there's these [08:18] teachings that go on that turn off your [08:20] critical thinking. Every time you're [08:22] quote unquote offended or aka, I don't [08:25] know, using critical thinking or or [08:27] sensing things that are wrong, it's like [08:30] programming kicks in, right? Like it [08:31] just it's like muscle memory. It's just [08:33] there. Sometimes you're you actively [08:36] tell yourself that and sometimes you [08:37] just do it. So my son calls me one day [08:41] as he you know we talked a couple times [08:43] a week and he's like I've got a question [08:44] for you. He's like I've heard Bill [08:47] Johnson say this a couple different [08:48] times and I've heard other people say [08:50] this too and it's not sitting right with [08:51] me. I'm like okay bud but what is it? [08:53] And he's like they're say that they're [08:55] not raising up disciples that they're [08:56] raising up revivalists. [08:59] So, you know, I'm trying to teach my [09:01] soon tobe adult son critical thinking. [09:04] I'm like, well, what do you think? Like, [09:06] why doesn't that sit right with you? And [09:08] he's just like, you know, over and over [09:10] again, people's complaint here is that [09:12] they're not being discipled. And, you [09:15] know, they're creating revivalists. So, [09:17] we have this whole conversation and and [09:18] my conversation with him was what was [09:20] the last words that Jesus said? [09:23] Go therefore and make disciples. So, in [09:27] my mind, immediately, and I think I even [09:29] said these words to my son, chew the [09:32] meat and spit out the bones. [snorts] [09:34] Here's the thing. At what point do we [09:37] realize there's a boneyard? [09:39] Boneyard after boneyard after boneyard [09:42] and and where it's enough, where it's [09:43] big enough that it's a problem. [09:47] That was my first kind of like, huh? You [09:49] know, [09:50] >> I love whenever those phrases become [09:52] things that we end up using and it [09:54] becomes a positive thing for us. Uh I [09:56] find myself all the time, um Mike used [09:59] to always pray that prayer of like, God, [10:01] let me see what you see and feel what [10:02] you feel when you look at me kind of [10:04] thing. And I've caught myself over the [10:06] years like at using that as like a [10:07] centering practice of sorts. as you were [10:10] talking about going into [10:12] prior to going into these environments [10:14] almost being groomed for it in a sense I [10:16] [snorts] think about and I don't think [10:17] we've ever talked about this John that [10:19] there was shades of like the shephering [10:21] movement um in my home church with with [10:23] our youth group specifically um to where [10:26] it was it was what it ended up doing was [10:29] removed agency from us. It it it removed [10:32] the [10:34] um the risk of consequence in a sense. [10:37] So, so it was appealing in in that way [10:40] because we knew if we had our leaders [10:42] approval for something that if something [10:44] went bad, it came back on them, but we [10:46] all know if it did go bad, it would [10:48] always come back on us. But that's that [10:50] was, you know, kind of where it went. [10:52] [snorts] [10:52] >> I don't think it's come out yet before [10:54] this podcast drops. But [clears throat] [10:56] I have um I've been doing work, as you [10:58] know, with other people in YWAM looking [11:01] to try to understand how how is that all [11:03] connected? And as I'm researching, I [11:05] came across a news article where [11:07] leadership from the shephering movement [11:09] were actually visiting the bases. So the [11:11] shephering, it it's widespread. This is [11:14] all really connected if you really [11:15] understand how it all works. It's [11:17] connected so much that I sympathize with [11:20] you working with your son. I have [11:22] friends who are in splinter groups of [11:24] branomism who whenever they finally [11:26] escape that splinter group, the very [11:29] first place that they go is Bethl [11:31] because it's so familiar to them. Even [11:33] though Brham, you know, he's totally [11:35] different doctrine, different central [11:36] figure, etc. The doctrinal framework [11:39] that was established that Brandham was [11:41] helping to establish, it is so familiar [11:43] to these people that they get [11:45] revictimized whenever they leave the [11:46] groups. [11:47] >> Sometimes I wonder how vulnerable to be. [11:49] Um, but why not, you [laughter] know, [11:52] like if your story can help somebody [11:53] else out there like I was an idiot, you [11:55] know, um, a sincere, you know, useful [11:58] idiot, I guess. But, you know, I [12:00] actually went to Bethl the first time [12:02] because it's a whole series of events [12:04] that's not worth getting into, but like [12:07] [laughter] I felt like God sent me there [12:09] to get a mantle [12:13] and um dang. So, you know, it's it when [12:17] you bring your kids into things, man, [12:18] it's you know, like I'm so thankful, you [12:20] know, I've paid for a lot of counseling. [12:22] I'll just say that. We've had frank [12:23] conversations where we've had to [12:25] apologize and I'm very grateful for my [12:27] adult children that we, you know, have a [12:29] great relationship and we're detangling [12:30] together and that, you know, they've [12:32] been able to share hurt and um and we [12:35] love each other a ton. And so, you know, [12:38] that doesn't always happen and and I'm [12:40] really grateful. But one of the other [12:43] kind of core indoctrination things is [12:46] this one. And Brley, maybe you can [12:48] relate to this, but it's like dig for [12:50] the gold. So, you're going to pick up on [12:52] stuff. And so, it's almost taught that [12:54] like this radius around everybody. [12:57] There's this soloulish floating stuff, [12:59] you know, um you can picture screen like [13:02] Iron Man with Jarvis or something, you [13:04] know, like swiping it out of the way. [13:06] And there's just, you know, all of these [13:08] soloulish things around someone, you're [13:09] going to pick up on their sin. And so, [13:12] any prophet worth their two cents is [13:14] going to kind of bat it out of the way [13:15] and reach through and find the gold, you [13:18] know? And so, yes, on one hand, we [13:21] should be seeing people at their best [13:25] and and what they can be and those types [13:27] of things. But what I think that really [13:29] does is every time your brain says this [13:32] is a red flag, this is a yellow flag. [13:35] All of a sudden, your critical thinking [13:36] goes down cuz you're afraid of being [13:38] offended or, you know, you got to, you [13:40] know, find the gold. And I think a lot [13:42] of predators take advantage of this [13:44] stuff. Sean BS taught it. Bob Jones [13:46] taught it. Um Bob Hartley taught I mean [13:48] I don't know how many people didn't but [13:51] it's a really big one at Bethl. So [13:53] there's a lot of this positive thinking [13:56] positive thinking you know they call it [13:58] you know declarations but let's call it [14:00] what it is. It's name it claim it. Um [14:02] it's it's just a rebranded word of faith [14:05] message mixed in there and um and it [14:08] doesn't allow for people to pay [14:11] attention to stop signs that they should [14:14] see. [14:14] >> Yeah, it's the the see the best in [14:17] people like the digging for the gold [14:18] thing. It made me think I'm super [14:20] grateful for Mike Winger's work, but if [14:23] you don't know, it's a six-hour video [14:24] that he did. [laughter] So I don't know [14:27] too many people that actually watch the [14:28] whole whole thing all the way through. I [14:30] I got to I I probably watched two and a [14:31] half, three hours of it or something. [14:33] But but one of the things that one of [14:35] the weapons that Shawn used in that with [14:38] the the people that he was uh grooming [14:40] in a sense, we'll say, was that he would [14:43] turn it back on to them. That instead of [14:47] it being something that he was doing [14:49] wrong, even though it was obvious by his [14:51] actions, what he was doing would not be [14:53] accepted. I don't think in any religious [14:54] circle, let alone Christian circles, [14:56] like it was just not okay. Um, and he [15:01] looked at them and says, "Well, you must [15:02] have a religious spirit or you're just [15:04] uptight or you're just this or just [15:06] that." Um, and it it it's daro in a [15:10] sense in in the moment that it's [15:12] reversing victim and offender kind of [15:13] thing. Oh, it's your fault that you're [15:15] uncomfortable with this. And um and I [15:19] can't imagine that that extra element of [15:22] cuz I I don't know if they were fully [15:23] aware of his data mining and stuff the [15:25] whole time like the people that worked [15:26] with him but whenever you're around [15:28] those prophetic people and I'm sure [15:29] you're very familiar with this is uh [15:32] you're afraid that they're just going to [15:34] like see your soul and like see like all [15:37] your dirt and all your sin and they know [15:39] what you did before you came to church [15:41] today and they know like these things. [15:43] It's like, God forbid they call it out [15:45] from the platform or something, but then [15:46] you find out they're all grifters and [15:47] and again, fear becomes a tool of [15:49] control. [15:50] >> I've mentioned on the podcast before, [15:52] but there was a minister in one of the [15:54] churches that I attended, and [15:56] [clears throat] it it's exactly like you [15:58] said, you fear what they say because he [16:00] can peer into your very soul. That's how [16:02] this framework is established. But [16:05] [clears throat] I remember I I remember [16:07] clearly sitting there and this [16:08] absolutely drop deadad gorgeous woman [16:10] walks into the congregation and I'm a [16:14] man. Everybody else who's a man, you see [16:16] the beauty that's walking in, right? [16:18] Well, as the guy's preaching, he can't [16:19] keep his eyes off of her. And in [16:22] afterwards, he apparently called her out [16:24] and said, "You have a seductive spirit [16:26] on you, lady." and he was dealing with [16:29] his own personal issues obviously as [16:32] were probably half the men in the [16:34] congregation. But he redirected that [16:36] focus to her because now she can start [16:40] guilting herself. Is it something I did? [16:42] What did I do wrong? And that's the [16:44] that's really the problem here. They the [16:46] leadership won't admit that they're [16:48] human. They want to be superhuman. [16:50] They're above all of this. And they can [16:52] peer into your very soul. So whenever [16:56] half of the things that you just said, [16:57] Brantley, the the phrases, the um loaded [17:00] [clears throat] language that you were [17:01] using, that was also common loaded [17:03] language in what we came out of in [17:05] Brandanism. And that's why it's so [17:07] familiar. That's why the [17:08] revictimization. man, if we had a dollar [17:10] for every time we've heard that story, [17:12] you know, Jezebel or It's so interesting [17:14] how scriptures taken in this charismatic [17:17] fundamentalist light until it's stuff [17:19] like pluck out your eyebrow, you know, [17:21] your eyeballs because you're, you know, [17:22] like it's not what's happening outside [17:24] that defiles you. It's what's happening [17:26] inside. Oh, no. Like, those scriptures [17:28] don't apply [laughter] right now. You [17:29] know, it's, you know, so and so needs to [17:31] go through some healing program or [17:33] something like that cuz, you know, they [17:34] they didn't wear, you know, a a burka or [17:37] something. It's absolutely ridiculous. [17:40] Um, I kind of want to turn the thought [17:42] to some of the the online stuff because [17:44] this reminds me of Chris talking about, [17:47] you know, Chris Ballatin, how tough it [17:49] is to be a pastor in an online age and, [17:52] you know, those types of things. And so, [17:54] yes, but also, can I just say you took [17:58] up the job of being a leader? And there [18:00] really is a difference between online [18:03] trolls because there really are people [18:05] who will just argue for the sake of [18:06] argument and they're just, you know, [18:08] mean and and people asking legitimate [18:11] questions. For instance, I know several [18:13] people during the Bickle debacle coming [18:16] out, you know, Mike's been on their [18:18] stage, their buddies, you know, all of [18:20] that kind of thing. Side note really [18:22] quickly that I want to say is I have [18:24] heard from a lot of people at Bethl, [18:26] including my son, that when people come [18:29] from IHOP and go to their school, they [18:32] actually, and I'm this is my wording, [18:34] but they put them through deprogramming [18:36] from IHOP because they don't like the, [18:39] you know, end times doom and gloom. You [18:42] know, they're really happy about like [18:43] the the future. You know, the future is [18:45] going to be better. Anyways, that was [18:46] one of the things that drew me there. [18:47] But back to to Chris and online. So what [18:50] I find really interesting is in my [18:52] opinion I think that some of his [18:54] behavior online is kind of bullyingish. [18:57] Now granted it's his page. I guess he [18:59] can act like how he wants but you know [19:00] fruit of the spirit or whatever might be [19:02] nice but he just blocks anyone that asks [19:05] a question. So we had folks that were a [19:08] part of you know like hey BSSM alumni [19:10] here you know are you going to speak up [19:13] about Mike? And so he goes on stage and [19:17] um and I've heard him several times when [19:18] I was at School of the Prophets like you [19:20] know everybody blasts us all the time [19:22] and takes stuff out of context and you [19:24] know like casting this whole thing of [19:26] like woe is me I'm the victim and he [19:29] literally cracks a joke calls the people [19:33] asking him to speak out an idiot and the [19:36] whole crowd laughs and I'm thinking yeah [19:39] 20 victims of a multi-deade abuse that's [19:43] funny stuff, man. You know, like why are [19:45] we making fun of this stuff? Like [19:47] weeping is the answer here. Like like [19:50] not Mike Bickle's my friend. And so we [19:53] see a ecosystem there of many predators, [19:58] of many grifters, of the place where [20:02] predators go to be restored. And so this [20:05] isn't an alone event that just happened. [20:09] Mike Winger should not be making [20:11] six-hour videos, which by the way, I [20:12] watched the 3-hour one and the 6-hour [20:14] one. And um he we just shouldn't he [20:18] shouldn't be doing that. They should be [20:19] calling their own stuff out, [20:21] >> which they seem incapable of doing. Um [20:24] we we had a front row seat, me and Owen, [20:26] to whenever this stuff was going on with [20:28] um Bob Hartley after he got called out [20:31] at IHOP and he fled to Bethl. And even [20:34] Bob's son Jed, who who's also I would I [20:37] would call him a friend. and John has [20:38] him on and we know Jed and and Jed [20:41] reached out to Beth the leadership [20:42] reached out to security there did did [20:44] these different things and they still um [20:46] turned a blind eye um and as you're [20:49] talking about Chris calling them idiots [20:51] like I can't help and and I know people [20:53] hate that I go here so often but I I [20:55] heard that in a news clip just last [20:57] night of someone who is questioning a a [21:00] narrative of of media and and one of our [21:03] national leaders will say looks at him [21:05] and says anybody that didn't see that [21:07] you're all idiots. You're all idiots if [21:09] you think that. And and it it's such a [21:11] learned behavior and it's also like a [21:12] tool to to cause that dividing line of [21:14] like you don't want to be the idiot. So [21:16] you pick a side is what ends up [21:17] happening. Um but whenever they frame [21:19] those questions and those inquiries as [21:21] persecution, u you can't help but but [21:24] but laugh. People ask me why I don't [21:26] jump on the bandwagon whenever something [21:28] like this comes out. I usually avoid it. [21:31] It's not just because I'm more [21:33] interested in the history, which that [21:34] part is true. I I could really care less [21:36] about the modern, but the bigger problem [21:38] is you jump on that bandwagon and you're [21:41] actually playing into their narrative. [21:43] The way this narrative works is this is [21:45] spiritual warfare. We are spiritual [21:47] warriors. The enemy has rise risen up [21:50] against the church and now we are we [21:54] have to admit our apology and that [21:56] always happens. You know the apology [21:57] comes but what comes next is textbook [22:00] and it will happen with Bethl. It's [22:01] happened with IHOP. happens all the way [22:03] down the line. It they they realize that [22:07] actually the apology and the fallout [22:09] from that is less powerful than the [22:11] martyr complex that they come with next. [22:14] They will play the martyr card. They [22:15] will say Satan rose up against us. They [22:17] attacked our church. They almost brought [22:19] us down. Look what happened. And what it [22:21] is, they redirect focus from the real [22:23] issue which here we have con artists and [22:27] that they're supporting who are [22:28] predators. That's really the bottom [22:30] line. [22:31] >> [clears throat] [22:31] >> They redirect focus from that to the [22:33] fact that we're spiritual warriors and [22:35] look what just happened to our church. [22:36] Well, in that framework, they they are [22:39] guiltless. It's the enemy that did it. [22:41] It's not us. It kind of reminds me of my [22:44] kid when he does something bad. The [22:45] devil made me do it, Dad. That's what [22:47] they're [laughter] saying. Exactly what [22:48] they're saying. It's interesting how you [22:51] look at I don't know hypothetically like [22:53] let's say you're a predator and you know [22:56] that there's a chance that you've got [22:58] lots of victims and that maybe the [23:01] history prophetically that you've been [23:03] weaving could come undone because I [23:05] don't know maybe it's made up or altered [23:07] or all of the above or things didn't [23:09] happen that were prophesied [gasps] or [23:11] or you've got victims right so the the [23:15] smartest defense is an offense right so [23:18] you come up with stories in advance [23:20] about like lo and behold someday a black [23:22] horse is going to come or whatever that [23:25] situ you know hypothetically might [23:27] happen and it but it's it's like this in [23:30] a lot of the different places but can I [23:33] just say that at Bethl there's this [23:37] um don't look back like Bill had this [23:41] you know maybe someone else is running [23:42] his page maybe it was locked and loaded [23:44] in advance I don't know but like right [23:45] after these videos come out it's like [23:47] yesterday sins, you know, don't visit [23:50] the past, you know, and so there's this [23:53] kind of like mind blocking or the sin [23:55] leveling even of like don't ever look [23:57] back, you know, ever, ever because, you [23:59] know, that's the blood of Jesus cancels [24:01] this out. Here's a quick story. So, I [24:04] live in a place where a lot of people [24:06] from Bethl live. And by the way, I have [24:10] a ton of friends that are involved in [24:11] Bethl. And there's good things at Bethl [24:14] and there's really beautiful people. [24:16] will please still be my friends after [24:18] [snorts] this podcast. But I think [24:20] they're wonderful and I think that [24:21] they're sincere and I think that some of [24:24] them like me have been groomed and so [24:27] this story represents that. So without [24:30] going into too much detail, I ended up [24:32] meeting this person who had moved from [24:34] Bethl and we kind of got stuck together [24:36] in this situation. And so it's going to [24:39] be a meal together with other people and [24:41] this person doesn't know me from Adam, [24:43] right? doesn't know my my job with IHOP [24:45] or anything, you know, in terms of [24:46] speaking out. [24:48] And out of the blue, she says, you know, [24:52] good golly, like, isn't it wild that [24:54] whole story with Robert Morris and that [24:56] woman coming forward years and years [24:58] later and, you know, she's just a money [25:00] grubbing D and I'm just like, don't [25:03] don't just c don't hit. You know, I'm [25:06] just like, wow. Like, this is really [25:08] interesting. I don't know what it is, [25:10] but when women [25:12] have that response, there's just [25:14] something that guts me, you know. Um, [25:16] having been a a victim in my childhood [25:19] of of a ton of those different types of [25:21] things, man. Um, and and the weight and [25:24] the counseling that you need and the [25:26] physical breakdown of your body that [25:28] happens. And no, I'm not a victim. I am [25:31] a survivor. I've got plenty of wonderful [25:33] stories I can tell. that I'm like, "Are [25:36] you aware that happened for 4 years? Are [25:39] you aware that she signed NDAs? Are you [25:42] aware that she was silenced? Are you [25:43] aware? Are you aware?" Well, you know, I [25:45] haven't really looked into it. Well, let [25:47] me just say, first of all, that survivor [25:49] deserves millions of dollars cuz there [25:51] is a biblical concept called recompense. [25:53] But the harm that was caused her [25:58] cost her a lot of money just to duct [26:00] tape herself together. But here's what [26:03] this woman kept continually bringing up. [26:05] Haven't you sent Owen? [26:08] Have And I'm like, "Yeah, uh, but no, I [26:12] have never, you know, assaulted a [26:15] [laughter] 12year-old for 4 years." [26:17] Listen, all sin isn't the same. There [26:19] are sins that go before a man. There are [26:21] sins that go behind a man. When leaders [26:24] sin, they should be called out from the [26:26] front. I'll be kind of reading some [26:29] scriptures later because I think it [26:30] might be really helpful for a lot of the [26:32] folks who've been brainwashed with this [26:34] other stuff. But it makes me so mad when [26:36] the name of Jesus or the blood of Jesus [26:39] or any religious terms whatsoever are [26:41] used as an excuse that there isn't [26:44] responsibility for what happened. It's [26:47] just infuriating. I I my jaw was just [26:49] dropped. could not believe that my quote [26:54] unquote lack of mercy or understanding [26:56] of the cross was the problem there. It [26:58] was wild. [26:59] >> Have you ever wondered how the [27:01] Pentecostal movement started or how the [27:03] progression of modern Pentecostalism [27:05] transitioned through the latter reign, [27:08] charismatic and other fringe movements [27:10] into the new apostolic reformation? You [27:13] can learn this and more on William Brham [27:15] Historical Researches website, [27:17] william-braham.org. [27:19] org. On the books page of the website, [27:22] you can find the compiled research of [27:24] John Collins, Charles Paisley, Steven [27:26] McGomery, John McKinnon, and others with [27:30] links to the paper, audio, and digital [27:32] versions of each book. You can also find [27:35] resources and documentation on various [27:37] people and topics related to those [27:39] movements. If you want to contribute to [27:42] the cause, you can support the podcast [27:44] by clicking the contribute button at the [27:46] top. And as always, be sure to like and [27:49] subscribe to the audio or video version [27:51] that you're listening to or watching. On [27:54] behalf of William Brandom Historical [27:55] Research, we want to thank you for your [27:57] support. You know, earlier in the [27:59] podcast, you're talking about the [28:00] indoctrination and you weren't afraid to [28:02] say it. And talking about the lady who [28:06] gives this type of response, it isn't [28:08] just the women that do this. The men do [28:09] it, but you're correct in that by and [28:12] large, the women are more likely to do [28:14] it than men. And there's a reason for [28:16] that. The indoctrination of this [28:19] hierarchy that they have created for the [28:21] male and females. They [clears throat] [28:23] have created it in such a way that the [28:25] women feel like the leadership can do no [28:29] wrong. And that is by design. And that's [28:31] part of the reason why we have so many [28:33] predators. When a leader does something [28:35] that's horrific, they say, "Well, you [28:37] sin, too. What's what's the big deal? [28:39] He's sinning. You're sinning. We're all [28:40] sinning. Hey, we're all sinners." That's [28:42] the kind of the framework that's been [28:44] established here. But they don't [28:45] understand like you said that leadership [28:48] is in a different category. You can't [28:50] continue leadership if you're doing this [28:52] kind of thing. But because the way that [28:54] this has been established, the [28:56] leadership are above any sort of [28:58] accountability and they're this [29:01] authoritarian [clears throat] [29:02] control that they have created, it puts [29:04] them in a position where they can't be [29:06] seen as mortals. They have to be super [29:08] mortal. They have to be they're they're [29:10] basically the mediator between God and [29:12] man. And who are you to call out the [29:14] mediator between God and man? And it's [29:16] just not a biblical model at all. [29:19] >> No, it's it the things that I keep going [29:21] back to. You're talking earlier about [29:23] it. It's almost like there's a playbook [29:25] for this stuff. And there really is. [29:27] It's I'm thinking back to to IHOP's [29:29] stuff that's very similar to what you're [29:31] referencing, Owen, is I I remember Mike [29:35] would use the phrase all the time. He'd [29:36] talk about the rage of Satan. And so [29:38] that was a way to frame these outside [29:41] questions, these quote unquote [29:43] persecutions as as the devil. And and [29:46] and I I remember that there being times [29:48] where it's like, oh, it's not that [29:49] person, it's it's the devil kind of [29:51] thing. It it it just reframed slightly. [29:55] [snorts] And a after all the the Mike [29:57] Bickle stuff went public in October of [29:58] 23, [30:00] one of the first messages we heard was [30:02] from the prophet [laughter] [30:04] air quotes uh Chris Reed who who came [30:08] and and he preached the message of don't [30:10] look back. It that that was exactly the [30:12] message it was of God has so much in [30:15] front of you. Don't dwell on the past. [30:17] Don't look back. And if you do look [30:19] back, he framed it in the context of the [30:21] story of Lot and his wife. He's like, if [30:23] you look back, you don't want to be [30:24] turned into a pillar of salt. And so, [30:26] like, at that point, it's it's it's put [30:27] on you. And the other tool that that [30:29] Mike would use, I think that he hoped I [30:32] think would come around and save him was [30:35] the whole push, delete, and move on. [30:37] That there was like such a low uh there [30:40] wasn't a whole lot of consequence for [30:42] sin in those to be to be so outspoken [30:45] against sin. Um sometimes there would be [30:47] penalizations that happen, but they [30:49] would use that especially with their [30:50] inner circles. We hear stories that they [30:52] would use that to grant themsel clemency [30:54] in a sense that it's it's push to lead [30:56] and move on. We all have weaknesses. We [30:58] all have this and all all the while [31:01] they're using as a tool to push their [31:03] abuses under the rug which is very [31:05] different than uh than most sins that we [31:09] are committing on a on a weekly basis. [31:11] It's we're not abusing people um just as [31:15] part of the human experience, but it [31:16] it's the sin leveling that is exactly [31:18] what it is. I I'm not one to be like, [31:21] "Okay, their response wasn't repenty [31:26] enough or humble enough or whatever it [31:27] is." Like, I I truly can't judge the the [31:30] motives of somebody's heart. Okay, but [31:32] let's see the fruit of repentance. How's [31:34] that? Release everybody that has signed [31:37] NDAs through the year. That is a fruit [31:39] of repentance. NDAs do not belong in the [31:41] church. name and call out the other [31:44] predators that you have connected to, [31:46] endorsed, put on your stage, etc. Be [31:49] honest about what has happened and what [31:52] you've known. What I found interesting [31:54] is they didn't even discuss the Bob [31:55] Hartley stuff at all in that. Like they [31:58] >> did they not? I didn't catch that. [32:00] >> No. And so maybe I've missed something, [32:02] so forgive me if I'm wrong, but to my [32:04] knowledge, they have not reached out to [32:06] Jubilee Dawn to apologize to her or the [32:09] other guy that cashed in his retirement [32:11] to create a film and almost lost his [32:13] marriage and all that kind of stuff as [32:15] well. Listen, those are two stories. [32:17] There are thousands of stories of people [32:20] who have made decisions, moved places, [32:24] married people, uh broke up with people, [32:26] you name it, that the fallout, the fruit [32:29] from this stuff is so rotten. And it's [32:31] so interesting. [32:33] I, [32:36] you know, we don't study spiritists, [32:37] right? Like we study scripture. Um, and [32:40] you know, in listening to John's [32:42] podcast, [32:44] he's talking about, you know, Roy E. [32:46] Davis and, you know, the mentalists and [32:48] the, you know, of course, getting [32:50] information fed to them and and all of [32:52] those types of things. And then I've [32:53] seen videos since then of of Paul Kaine [32:55] having people moved through the line and [32:57] he's got the numbered cards and they've [32:59] got very good memories if nothing else. [33:01] But it's like when you see it, you're [33:04] just like, "Oh my gosh." Like it was you [33:08] see the grift. It's like the wolf falls [33:10] off your eyes. But listen, people don't [33:13] know about Shawn Boss except for the [33:16] most part that he was launched from [33:17] their stage. They talk them up. They [33:20] share stories. They lift them up to to [33:24] celebrity status. And now it's time to [33:27] make recompense for the harm that's been [33:29] done. [33:30] >> Yeah, I completely agree. I was I read [33:33] their statement. I didn't listen to the [33:35] apology [33:36] um the video apology, frankly, for that [33:39] reason. I knew that they weren't doing [33:40] anything to to bring restitution. And at [33:43] that point, words are are just words. Um [33:46] but but I can't help but uh to to look [33:51] back at where Shawn came from, as you [33:53] mentioned earlier, like he was a product [33:55] of Mike Bickl's culture. Um I have heard [34:00] those who say that his kind of mentor of [34:03] sorts, somebody that we're all very [34:04] familiar with, if you listen to the [34:06] podcast, is Paul Kaine. Um, and so it's [34:09] it seems like a bad joke eventually like [34:12] whenever you see that all these people [34:14] are connected to the same root system um [34:18] over and over like it it it feels like a [34:20] bad dream that you want to wake up from [34:21] is what is really what it [laughter] [34:23] feels like. [34:24] >> If I were a predator [34:26] and I wanted to go make money [34:29] and be in a place that if I was found [34:31] out that I would be quickly restored, [34:34] I'd go to the charismatic church. Now, I [34:36] can't speak to other churches. I know [34:38] there's plenty of stuff that goes on in [34:39] them, but I just haven't been involved [34:40] with them. So, people are so quick to to [34:43] eat any breadcrumb to see people [34:46] restored. And [34:49] listen, I think I think that truly [34:51] repentant people can be restored to God. [34:53] But there's a point where the sheep or [34:55] the people, they just need to be [34:57] protected. And you know, I I'll never [35:00] forget Rick Joiner reading what he said. [35:02] Like he knew Todd Bentley was going to [35:03] like fall again and like revictimize [35:06] people essentially and he put him into [35:08] place anyways. And I'm like, uh, why is [35:10] no one by like Rick, you need to sit [35:12] down and retire, buddy. Like that's [35:14] that's not okay. And it's just it's a [35:18] safe haven. It's an ecosystem that needs [35:22] to be addressed. And there's so many [35:24] teachings and I'd love to talk about [35:26] some of those in a minute here. Well, [35:27] that's just it. It is an ecosystem and [35:30] you know, I I get accused often of all [35:33] trails lead back to Brandham in my [35:34] research. That's not really quite [35:36] accurate, but many trails do because he [35:39] and Gordon Lindsay systematized this [35:42] entire thing. They there were all of [35:44] these other ministries that were doing [35:45] similar things, bits and pieces of it. [35:47] And these two men basically created a [35:49] platform that generated cult leaders. [35:52] You can read through voice of healing [35:53] and you can find all of the different [35:55] guys that are claiming I saw an angel. I [35:58] saw a vision from heaven. I actually [35:59] went to heaven. I actually went to hell. [36:01] All of these different things. And [36:03] [clears throat] it's just stage act if [36:04] you if you read and understand. I mean, [36:06] one of the stage acts literally was a [36:08] boy who claimed that he could see [36:10] through a plastic eye from God. That's [36:12] the kind of stage acts that's being [36:14] promoted in this thing, right? When you [36:16] have that kind of ecosystem where it [36:18] really doesn't matter if you're [36:20] Christian or not, as long as you have a [36:22] gimmick and as long as you can draw a [36:23] crowd into that gimmick, the idea of the [36:26] movement was really this, which is a [36:28] Gnostic idea that we can tell lies for [36:31] the sake of a holy end because if we lie [36:34] and the the faith is converted by the [36:37] people and that faith is in Jesus [36:39] Christ, then we have done God's work [36:41] whether we're lying or not. The problem [36:43] is you still have liars at the top. And [36:46] those liars aren't they have no sense of [36:49] accountability or I I hate to say it, [36:52] but many of them probably aren't even [36:53] Christian because Christians don't do [36:55] this kind of thing, but they're in the [36:56] leadership of this ecosystem. [36:58] >> I think that there's a website that [36:59] people should check out. It's called [37:00] show me the toes.com. [37:03] And um yep, it's still up. [37:07] One of the things that Mike Winger [37:08] brings up in that video is the fact that [37:10] there was this woman who claimed that [37:12] three of her toes grow back grew back [37:14] and you know um then they wouldn't show [37:16] the toes, right? Show me the toes. And [37:19] and finally she, you know, they were [37:21] like, "We're not going to revictimize [37:23] her." What? Like by having her show the [37:25] miracle like we're not going to document [37:26] it. And so she finally puts a picture of [37:29] her foot up there and then somebody [37:30] scrolls down in her Facebook post and [37:32] sees an old picture of her foot that's [37:33] exactly the same. Well, you know, that [37:36] was addressed in Mike Winger's video in [37:38] terms of this buddy of Bill's saying it [37:40] happened and and Bill going on stage and [37:42] saying it happened. It was verified by a [37:44] doctor that her toes grew. I mean, the [37:45] toes grew or they didn't, right? So, you [37:48] know, I'm not going to call out every [37:49] miracle. I I believe in, you know, I've [37:51] seen some things that I can't, you know, [37:53] deny. Um, but, you know, like, let's [37:57] just not make it up, right? So, there's [38:00] this book. So Danny Silk was one of the [38:03] people who was brought in behind the [38:04] scenes in terms of Shan. It's called [38:07] Unpunishable. Yes, I've read it. Yes, [38:09] I've even recommended it to some people. [38:12] It's it's really interesting to me to [38:14] look back at like what was happening in [38:16] my brain when I read that cuz there were [38:18] some really beautiful things in this [38:19] book. But but the premise is that he [38:22] tells the story. So I'm not going to [38:24] name a name. He happens to be over all [38:26] the prophetic still to this day as of [38:28] January 12th at least when he did a [38:30] teaching. and at Bethl. So, here's the [38:34] story. He [38:36] had an intern or BSSM student, someone, [38:39] you know, younger and in their care [38:41] living in his home and he quote unquote [38:43] had a affair and um he got found out and [38:48] they put him basically on desk duty and [38:52] they told it was the second year or the [38:54] third year or the second and the third [38:55] year only [38:57] and then it comes out that he'd had a [38:59] quote unquote another affair. I don't [39:00] know the details of it, but let's just [39:02] call it what it is. It was CSA. [39:05] Just like a doctor and a patient, a [39:07] therapist and their client, um a teacher [39:11] and their student, um they lose lenture [39:14] and go to jail, right? So, this is a [39:16] crime, by the way, in 14 or 15 states. [39:18] Not enough, but we're going to do [39:19] something about that. That being said, [39:22] he wasn't restored properly in the past, [39:25] apparently. And so this this woman is [39:27] like fired from her job there and [39:29] treated terribly and he goes through [39:32] this restoration process. Never told the [39:34] church. Now, this book is all about that [39:37] there's people that Danny knows that [39:39] would sit there in judgment and not [39:42] understand the mercy and the grace of [39:43] Jesus and they would want him like [39:46] permanently removed from ministry. And I [39:47] remember [clears throat] reading that [39:48] and I was like, man, I don't understand [39:50] mercy. I don't understand grace. I don't [39:53] understand the cross. and there's [39:55] something wrong with me. Well, rewind to [39:58] my first school of the prophets, which [40:00] was um [40:04] right when the car fire was. So, it was [40:05] 20 2018. I go there and I go to Oh, this [40:10] is so embarrassing. But I go to this [40:12] dream interpretation [40:14] workshop and this dude is sharing about [40:17] dream interpretation. And one of the [40:18] things that he talks about is that there [40:20] are times where you can have a dream and [40:23] you might I'm trying to find the words [40:25] so I don't get buzzed here. Um have [40:27] intimacy, you know, um like a husband [40:30] and a wife would have with someone [40:32] you're not married to or person or even [40:34] Jesus. And that doesn't necessarily mean [40:37] that it's something wrong that it could [40:39] represent intimacy with Jesus. And I'm [40:42] like, you know, like what in the like I [40:45] didn't even hear this nonsense at Metro [40:47] [laughter] [40:48] and and um he's talking and this this [40:51] beautiful black mama from Africa stands [40:53] up and her beautiful garb and she just [40:55] only Yeah. Like only a black mama can, [40:57] you know, she just dresses him down and [40:59] she's like, you know, where we're from, [41:00] [laughter] like we're not in rational [41:02] land. Like we understand stuff in the [41:04] spirit and like this is not okay and da [41:06] da da. the dude doubles down and I just [41:09] remember thinking like check red flag [41:10] red flag red flag like but here he is [41:13] endorsed by these guys and on the stage [41:16] and they haven't called him out on his [41:18] story yet. So 2 years later I go back to [41:20] school of the prophets and they reveal [41:23] this story to everybody [41:26] and [41:27] I'm like God's mercy. God's mercy. God's [41:30] mercy. God's mercy. Something's wrong [41:32] with me that I have a problem with this. [41:33] I'm a little more educated now. That was [41:36] CSA and it is unacceptable. [41:39] And that is just one story about the [41:42] ecosystem of what's being taught to all [41:44] of these people. You should have at [41:45] least told your church so they could [41:47] choose to attend or not. I mean, like [41:48] bare minimum, right? [41:50] >> I'm one of these people that's not too [41:51] proud to admit that much of my moral [41:53] code came from the Andy Griffith show. [41:55] [laughter] I watch that show. And and [41:58] the funny part is it actually had more [42:00] morals than the religion that I left, [42:02] which is just it's mindboggling when you [42:04] think about it, but there was this one [42:05] episode. I don't know if you saw it or [42:07] not, but there was a ex-con man who came [42:10] into Mayberry and he was just trying to [42:13] establish himself, find some work. The [42:15] whole town rose up against him. [42:16] Everybody hated this guy and he was [42:18] trying to do better. And Andy Griffith [42:21] stepped in. It's the, you know, at the [42:23] end there's the heartwarming thing where [42:25] he he [clears throat] explains that this [42:27] guy's trying to do good. He was he had a [42:29] bad past and now he's trying to do good. [42:31] And [snorts] the key difference between [42:33] that, the moral of that story and the [42:35] moral of the church today, the [42:36] charismatic church today. Andy Griffith [42:39] was not at all hiding the fact that this [42:43] guy was an ex-convict. You might be at [42:45] risk. This guy, yes, was an ex-convict. [42:47] He's trying to turn his life around. In [42:49] this type of religion that has been [42:51] established, they hide the fact. They [42:53] don't want you to know. Picture that [42:55] same story. If say it wasn't Andy, say [42:58] that it was Opie and Opie starts letting [43:00] the guy, I don't know, run the little [43:02] league for the kids and fi finally they [43:06] find out that oh my gosh, the little [43:08] league's been operated, been coached by [43:11] this ex-convict. All of our kids were at [43:13] risk. Andy would have stepped in and [43:15] said, "All right, all y'all need to be [43:16] locked up." [laughter] [43:18] And that's really what needs to happen [43:20] today. You look at the church today, [43:22] they're letting people who should never [43:24] ever be back in leadership in those [43:27] positions. And some of them say that [43:29] they did some small thing. There's still [43:31] no transparency. So when you find out, [43:34] that's why all of this explodes into the [43:36] way that it does today. That's why Bethl [43:37] has to have this response they have [43:39] because they're not transparent in the [43:41] beginning. Whenever it that finally does [43:43] leak out, you have to step up and say, [43:45] "Oh, we're sorry. This happened." And [43:47] then later, like I said, they're they're [43:49] going to play the martyr card. Satan [43:51] rose up against our church. It almost [43:53] took us down. Look what happened. But [43:55] now we're better. God is back on our [43:57] side. That's how the literally how this [43:59] house of cards crumbles and rebuilds [44:01] itself. I think to one of the things [44:04] that stood out to me at Bethl was [44:08] the it's called honor but it's like [44:12] celebrity worship. Um, [44:15] when Bill's going to go speak, for [44:17] instance, there's a standing ovation [44:19] before he even speaks, like a really [44:21] long one, and I'm like, "Okay, there's [44:23] something wrong with me." And dishonor, [44:24] you know, do you see a theme in me? Like [44:26] that I've been healing from like I like [44:29] and then they have these these [44:31] flashcards that they sell in the [44:32] bookstore. I don't know if they're still [44:33] there, but they were last time I [44:34] checked. They're quotes of Bill that you [44:36] could buy. And I'm like, who are we [44:38] following, y'all? Like, that's not [44:40] honor. Like, that's people worship. [44:43] So my first okay my first like flag was [44:46] my son like you know the disciplehip [44:48] thing and then my second one was they [44:50] did the series on the office of you know [44:52] the prophet the pastor whatever and so [44:54] Bill was the apostle and so at the end I [44:57] think it was Dan Farley um he's like um [45:01] Bill like what about this N thing you [45:03] know like are you part of the N and [45:05] Bill's like I don't know really what [45:08] that is this is my paraphrase and I [45:11] remember sitting there and I was like [45:13] I know what that is. How do you not know [45:16] what that is? And I just thought I think [45:18] he just fiddie [45:21] [laughter] [45:24] like and then you're like that is is [45:26] that possible that he no that's not [45:28] possible that he lied. The other thing [45:30] was my oldest son when he found out we [45:34] were kind of going to Bethl he's like [45:35] you know that they practice necromancy [45:36] there like what's up with that you know [45:38] and I'm like no that's not true because [45:40] here's the thing like there were act [45:42] there were like accusations of grave [45:44] soaking sucking whatever and they [45:46] released this statement like a couple of [45:48] rowdy unbelievable you know students [45:50] went and did some things like we're not [45:52] behind that like you know we disavow [45:54] disavow this you know message will [45:56] delete in 30 seconds and [45:59] Come to find out, like I actually have [46:01] pictures of the late, you know, Benny [46:04] Johnson laying on different, you know, [46:07] God's generals craves. We see Bill [46:10] there. He says he was just honoring um [46:13] we see, of course, video of like Shawn [46:15] Foy at uh um Count Zinsandorf with that [46:18] other guy, that little guy that defends [46:20] IHOP all the time. And it's fascinating [46:24] how there's just proof over and over and [46:26] over again that it's happening. And so [46:27] when I saw that I was like, well that's [46:29] a lie because you're doing that. You did [46:32] that. [46:34] So if you're lying about that, what else [46:35] are you lying about? [46:36] >> Well, I remember a very similar thing [46:38] happening whenever I was in IHOPU with [46:40] Dave Sliker. We asked about NAR is what [46:43] it was. And and we were all hearing that [46:44] phrase for the first time, and this [46:46] probably would have been 2010, 2011, [46:48] something like that. And I remember him [46:50] being like, "No, we're not that." And [46:52] like trying to give all these reasons of [46:53] of why. Um, but but it also reminded me [46:57] of uh which we still don't have a whole [47:00] lot of in like public information on I [47:03] guess which is the the Tyler Deon stuff [47:04] that happened at IHOP um whenever um his [47:08] wife was was found in in a car by the [47:11] lake is what we'll we'll say. There was [47:13] a very specific distancing that happened [47:16] between IHOP leadership and this group. [47:19] But whenever we hear testimonies from [47:21] this group, IHOP leadership was actually [47:23] very close with this group and like had [47:26] mentoring relationships with this group. [47:28] And it wasn't until because that was [47:30] ideal for them. These people were living [47:32] in extreme community. They were sharing [47:34] finances, sharing housing, sharing food, [47:36] all these different things. They were [47:37] having meetings every night. Like it [47:39] makes IHOP look like a walk in the park [47:41] as far as like high control. And as soon [47:45] as as things take a turn, it's [47:47] disavowed. We don't know these people. [47:49] Um, I've heard stories, not going to out [47:51] people, but I've heard stories as soon [47:53] as all that stuff happened, they're [47:54] running and wiping email servers, doing [47:57] name searches, they're deleting videos, [47:59] all these different things to try to [48:01] hide the fact that they knew anything [48:03] about these folks. And we're still [48:05] seeing that happen with w with with [48:06] Winger with his videos as he was [48:08] approaching Bethl with these things [48:10] about Shawn. All of a sudden, all these [48:12] videos start getting taken down. And I [48:13] love that he like broke out his cell [48:15] phone showing the the the computer [48:17] screen showing that this video is [48:18] unavailable now because that's what they [48:20] do. I've been doing a research project [48:22] and I told a friend I was like I I can't [48:24] say anything about this publicly because [48:25] if I do they're going to end up taking [48:27] everything down. Like that's that's [48:28] their move. That's what they do. Um it's [48:32] it's a playbook. It is. [48:34] >> Interestingly enough, you know, the [48:35] first survivor that went forward was to [48:38] Patricia King. And it sounds like she [48:40] treated that person with empathy. We [48:41] made some recordings, three different [48:43] ones, sent them to Chayon. It was hot a [48:44] game of hot potato, right? Listen, I [48:47] haven't told my personal story yet of a [48:50] groomer and everything that I went [48:52] through um trying to come forward. Maybe [48:54] I'll be brave enough someday, but you [48:56] you when you're they call it the second [48:58] wound, how you're treated after you try [49:00] to come forward. And honestly, to this [49:03] day, it's more painful than the things [49:05] that happen. [49:06] And it just breaks my heart that these [49:10] people have been hurt and all the while [49:14] there's books being sold. And frankly, [49:16] every single person, I agree with Mike [49:18] Winger, every single person that [49:19] endorsed that book needs to come forward [49:21] with a statement. [snorts] So back to [49:23] Patricia King, she's like, she issues [49:25] the statement like, "I feel really bad. [49:27] I'm sorry." You know, maybe there was [49:28] some genuine stuff in their crate, but [49:30] she's like, "I do not hardly know the [49:31] man." And Mike Winger like whips out all [49:34] these videos and she's like, I've known [49:35] Shawn Bull since he was a teenager and [49:39] all these different times where she's [49:40] just like, you know, dear friends and [49:42] friends of the house and all these [49:44] different things and it's like you're [49:45] lying. You know, listen, these [49:47] honorariums that these guys make are [49:50] unbelievably huge. [49:52] >> Yeah, it's it's crazy because like that [49:54] the financial impacts like that's the [49:56] thing. Like what does somebody have to [49:58] do? What do we not know about Shawn? [49:59] That he becomes such a liability that [50:02] they cut him off. I mean, there's [50:03] there's public testimony and all this [50:05] stuff, but that didn't keep them from [50:07] keeping Paul Kaine on IHOP property for [50:09] years. That didn't keep Bob Jones from [50:11] saying in ministry. Like, we know these [50:13] guys have skeletons in their closet. [50:15] Like, I wonder if they have like a data [50:16] analytics person in their back office. [50:18] Like, at what point do they become more [50:19] of a risk than they are a benefit? [50:22] >> Well, and Charles and I talked about [50:24] that this Monday. It's probably come out [50:27] before you guys have heard it. Jed [50:28] [clears throat] and I are going to talk [50:29] about it to some extent. Paul Kaine had [50:31] dirt on every single person and actually [50:33] had recordings and we got one of the [50:35] transcripts of one of those recordings [50:37] and you can clearly tell that some [50:39] buttons are being pushed even though the [50:41] transcript that we got was heavily [50:42] edited. It looked like it's hard to know [50:45] because we don't know what's underneath [50:46] there, but it looks like to protect [50:48] Chuck Smith. And Chuck Smith had a [50:51] sudden chains of heart. I'm not going to [50:53] condemn Paul Kaine of his homosexuality [50:56] after Paul Kaine came and bullied us and [50:58] threatened whatever it was he [50:59] threatened. So very clearly they have [51:01] dirt on each other. But it just shows [51:04] that this is a systematic problem. This [51:06] is not a single church problem. This is [51:09] something that is developing over and [51:11] over in bigger and nastier ways. And it [51:14] all comes back to the fact that the [51:16] foundation that was laid wasn't a [51:18] Christian foundation. And all of these [51:20] ministries are building on top of [51:21] something that wasn't Christian in the [51:23] first place. So anyway, very glad that [51:26] you came and shared all of this with [51:28] all. I may ask you to come back and do [51:30] some more with us if you have more [51:32] information. Would you be interested in [51:33] doing that? I would. I feel like I [51:36] talked about 10% of something. Um I'd [51:39] love to add this before we go if that's [51:41] okay. Two things. One, a book I [51:44] recommend, Something's Not Right by Wade [51:45] Mullen. It's kind of showcases the [51:47] playbook. So, concessions and [51:49] minimizations. I'll leave you with those [51:50] words. Look up the definitions. Could be [51:52] what's happening, could be not. The [51:54] other thing is, please, please, please [51:57] seek legal counsel and not an ambulance [51:59] chaser before going to this thing that [52:02] Bethl has set up where you can call in [52:06] quote unquote anonymously and and you [52:08] know, give tips or, you know, say, "I'm [52:10] a survivor of something." Listen, I've [52:13] lived through four internal [52:15] investigations. [52:16] Now, the people that go through those [52:18] end up quadruply wounded. So, I can't [52:22] tell you not to do it because I could [52:24] get in trouble. But what I would say is [52:26] please talk to a trusted lawyer before [52:29] you come forward because I I care about [52:32] survivors coming forward and their [52:34] stories and them not being reinjured [52:37] because those usually those types of [52:39] things could be places where stories go [52:41] to die. That's very good advice and [52:44] thank thanks again so much for doing [52:45] this and thank you Brantley for helping [52:47] me. This has been interesting, fun, sad, [52:50] and scary all at the same time. So, if [52:52] you've enjoyed our show and you want [52:54] more information, you can check us out [52:55] on the web. You can find us at [52:56] william-brandom.org. [52:58] For more about the dark side of the New [52:59] Apostolic Reformation, you can read [53:01] weaponized religion from Christian [53:03] identity to the NR available on Amazon, [53:05] [music] Kindle, and Audible. [53:09] Heat. [53:12] [music] [53:22] Heat. [53:29] [music] [53:30] Heat. [53:37] [music] [53:43] [music] [53:45] Heat. [53:50] [music] [53:52] Heat. [54:04] Heat. [music]