Should Wives Submit?  ## Metadata - Author: [[Data Over Dogma]] - Full Title: Should Wives Submit? - Category: #podcasts - URL: https://share.snipd.com/episode/dfdb0876-5b6b-4da0-9f6f-8ac113cad21a ## Document Notes > [!note]+ Document Notes > tags: [biblical-studies, gender-studies, ancient-history] > author: Data Over Dogma > source: YouTube > reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=efYng6wT4YY > date created: 2024-12-19 14:30 > > # 🏷️ Title: Should Wives Submit? > <!-- deep-read:sections start --> ## 🧰 Action Inbox - [H1] Research household codes in Greco-Roman literature — comparison study needed #biblical-studies - [H2] Investigate marital rape legalization timeline — historical context for modern applications #social-justice - [H3] Examine UFO interpretations of biblical texts — distinguish apocalyptic imagery from conspiracy theories #biblical-hermeneutics ## 🧭 Table of Contents - [📝 Summary](#-summary) - [📖 Main Content](#-main-content) - [🗒️ Notes](#️-notes) - [📚 References](#-references) - [🗣️ Paraphrase](#️-paraphrase) - [📰 Newsletter](#-newsletter) - [✅ Action Items](#-action-items) - [🧪 Hypotheses](#-hypotheses) - [📊 Methodology](#-methodology) - [❓ Questions](#-questions) - [🔮 Future Research](#-future-research) - [💡 Implications](#-implications) - [🧠 Learning Styles Assessment](#-learning-styles-assessment) - [📊 Accessibility Assessment](#-accessibility-assessment) - [🌍 DEIB Assessment](#-deib-assessment) - [✅ Logical Validity](#-logical-validity) - [🛡️ DARVO Analysis](#-darvo-analysis) - [🎯 Conclusion](#-conclusion) ### 🔗 References - [Data Over Dogma Podcast](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=efYng6wT4YY) - [Ancient Aliens TV Series](https://www.history.com/shows/ancient-aliens) ## 📝 Summary - Biblical scholars Dan McClellan and Dan Beecher examine Ephesians 5:22's command for wives to submit, revealing its roots in Greco-Roman household codes - The passage represents systematic misogyny adopted from Greek philosophy, not divine mandate - Christianity heavily incorporated existing patriarchal social conventions and created theological justifications for them - Discussion includes ancient alien conspiracy theories that misinterpret biblical apocalyptic imagery - Key insight: Biblical laws evolved culturally and should be understood in historical context, not as timeless mandates ## 📖 Main Content The Data Over Dogma podcast tackles two controversial topics: biblical gender roles and ancient alien theories. The hosts demonstrate that Ephesians 5:22's command for wives to submit isn't even a complete sentence - it borrows its verb from verse 21's "mutual submission." However, the context clearly establishes patriarchal hierarchy, as the husband is compared to Christ and the wife to the church. This passage exemplifies how Christianity adopted Greco-Roman "household codes" - standardized literary forms addressing master/slave, husband/wife, and parent/child relationships. Similar patterns appear in Aristotle's Politics and Jewish writers like Philo and Josephus, showing systematic cultural adoption rather than divine revelation. The discussion then shifts to examining how conspiracy theorists misinterpret apocalyptic biblical imagery as UFO encounters, particularly in Ezekiel and Zechariah. These interpretations ignore the literary conventions of apocalyptic writing and the theological purposes these visions served in their historical contexts. ## 🗒️ Notes #### ⏱️ [00:02:15](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=efYng6wT4YY?t=135) — [H1] Ephesians 5:22 lacks grammatical independence - Key idea: The verse "Wives, be subject to your husbands" doesn't contain its own verb - Evidence: "The verb is actually a participle that is in the previous verse... verse 22 is just borrowing the force of the participle from verse 21" #### ⏱️ [00:04:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=efYng6wT4YY?t=270) — [H2] Ancient Greek manuscripts had no punctuation - Key idea: Biblical verse divisions are modern editorial decisions, not original text features - Evidence: "It was just continuous text. They didn't put spaces between the words. They certainly didn't have verses" #### ⏱️ [00:06:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=efYng6wT4YY?t=405) — [H1] The complete sentence spans verses 18-22 - Key idea: "Be filled with the spirit" is the main command, followed by participles including mutual submission - Evidence: "Be filled with the spirit... singing... giving thanks... being subject to one another out of reverence for Christ" #### ⏱️ [00:08:20](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=efYng6wT4YY?t=500) — [H2] Apologetic attempts fail due to verse 23 - Key idea: Claims about mutual submission are undermined by the husband-as-Christ analogy - Evidence: "The husband is the head of the wife, just as Christ is the head of the church" #### ⏱️ [00:10:15](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=efYng6wT4YY?t=615) — [H3] Male sacrifice fantasy versus daily female labor - Key idea: Husbands fantasize about heroic self-sacrifice while wives perform actual daily work - Evidence: "While the wife's got to make the sandwiches... every single day because the husband said so, one day, probably not, but maybe one day he'll have to sacrifice his life" #### ⏱️ [00:12:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=efYng6wT4YY?t=750) — [H1] Ephesians likely not written by Paul - Key idea: Scholarly consensus questions Pauline authorship of Ephesians - Evidence: "The majority of scholars or a good number of scholars don't think that Paul was responsible for Ephesians" #### ⏱️ [00:14:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=efYng6wT4YY?t=885) — [H1] Household codes were standard Greco-Roman literature - Key idea: Biblical submission passages follow established literary conventions - Evidence: Aristotle's Politics covers "master and slave, the husband and wife, the father and child" - same three relationships addressed in Ephesians 5-6 #### ⏱️ [00:17:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=efYng6wT4YY?t=1020) — [H2] Aristotle believed women were "undercooked men" - Key idea: Greek philosophy provided pseudo-scientific justification for misogyny - Evidence: "Aristotle thought a woman was just an undercooked man, that the gestation just moved more slowly for women" #### ⏱️ [00:19:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=efYng6wT4YY?t=1170) — [H1] Christianity adopted Greco-Roman social conventions - Key idea: Early Christians didn't reject society but embraced and theologized existing practices - Evidence: "Christians were like, 'What society does is all that matters, and we're going to come up with rationalizations for why that's what God wanted all along'" #### ⏱️ [00:22:15](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=efYng6wT4YY?t=1335) — [H2] Marital rape was legal until 1993 in all US states - Key idea: Biblical patriarchy directly contributed to legal oppression of women - Evidence: "I was alive when marital rape was not a crime... It's only been since I think like 1993 that it has actually been outlawed in all 50 states" #### ⏱️ [00:25:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=efYng6wT4YY?t=1500) — [H3] Biblical laws evolved and changed over time - Key idea: Even within scripture, legal and moral standards undergo development - Evidence: "The laws change from Old Testament to new... Even within the Bible, the law continually changes and modifies itself" #### ⏱️ [00:30:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=efYng6wT4YY?t=1845) — [H1] Ancient alien theories misinterpret Sumerian texts - Key idea: Zechariah Sitchin's theories lack scholarly foundation despite popular appeal - Evidence: "Based on his arguments, he either didn't learn any discipline... or didn't really learn Sumerian that well" #### ⏱️ [00:35:20](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=efYng6wT4YY?t=2120) — [H2] Ezekiel's vision represents God's mobile throne - Key idea: The "wheels within wheels" imagery depicts divine mobility, not spacecraft - Evidence: "God's throne... has now been pimped out. And God can just floor it over to Babylon and ride his throne on his platform" #### ⏱️ [00:38:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=efYng6wT4YY?t=2280) — [H3] Apocalyptic imagery serves theological purposes - Key idea: Bizarre biblical visions were intentionally strange to provoke contemplation - Evidence: "One of the main points of apocalyptic imagery is to be... bizarre because it kind of forces you to think about this stuff" ## 📚 References - [Ephesians 5:18-33](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians%205%3A18-33&version=NRSVUE) - [Aristotle's Politics](https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0058) - [Philo's Hypothetica](https://www.philo.org/) - [Zechariah Sitchin Bibliography](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zecharia_Sitchin) ## 🗣️ Paraphrase - The biblical command for wives to submit comes from Greco-Roman household management literature, not divine revelation - Christianity systematically adopted existing patriarchal social structures and created theological justifications for them - Ancient alien conspiracy theories misunderstand apocalyptic literary conventions as literal descriptions of extraterrestrial encounters ## 📰 Newsletter **Biblical Gender Roles: Historical Context Matters** This week's deep dive reveals how Ephesians 5:22's submission passage actually reflects ancient Greco-Roman social conventions rather than timeless divine commands. The scholarly evidence shows these "household codes" were standard literary forms addressing power relationships in ancient society. Key learning: Understanding biblical texts requires historical and cultural literacy. What appears as religious mandate often represents cultural adoption and theological rationalization of existing practices. For modern believers, this highlights the importance of distinguishing between culturally-bound instructions and transcendent principles. The evolution of biblical ethics itself demonstrates that moral understanding develops over time. Resources: [Society of Biblical Literature](https://www.sbl-site.org/), [Biblical Archaeology Society](https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/), [Academic Study of Religion](https://www.aarweb.org/) ## ✅ Action Items #### DevRel - Developer advocacy: Create educational content distinguishing historical-critical from literalist interpretation methods - Education: Develop workshops on reading ancient texts in cultural context - Community engagement: Foster respectful dialogue between traditional and progressive biblical interpretations #### OSPO - Policy & Governance: Establish guidelines for discussing controversial religious topics in open source communities - Community Engagement: Support academic accessibility initiatives for biblical studies resources - Strategic Alignment: Connect open source values with academic freedom and critical inquiry #### Community - Maintainers: Support scholars using digital tools for textual analysis and manuscript studies - Contributors: Welcome diverse perspectives on ancient text interpretation - Sponsors: Fund digitization projects for ancient manuscripts and archaeological data #### WordPress - Community: Provide platforms for academic discourse while maintaining respectful dialogue standards - Documentation: Create guides for building academic research websites - Accessibility: Ensure scholarly content is available across devices and connection speeds ## 🧪 Hypotheses - Biblical submission passages primarily reflect Greco-Roman social conventions rather than divine mandates - Ancient alien interpretations of biblical texts correlate with scientific illiteracy about both astronomy and ancient literature - Modern apologetic attempts to soften patriarchal biblical passages often ignore historical and literary context - Religious communities that acknowledge cultural evolution in biblical ethics show greater gender equality ### 📊 Methodology - Comparative analysis of household codes across Greco-Roman literature and biblical texts - Survey research on correlations between biblical interpretation methods and gender equality attitudes - Content analysis of ancient alien conspiracy theories to identify common interpretive errors ### ❓ Questions - How do different Christian denominations handle the tension between biblical authority and evolving social ethics? - What role does scientific literacy play in resistance to conspiracy theories about ancient texts? - Can progressive biblical interpretation maintain religious authority while acknowledging cultural evolution? ### 🔮 Future Research - Digital humanities analysis of household code language patterns across ancient Mediterranean literature - Psychological studies on motivated reasoning in religious text interpretation - Anthropological research on how religious communities negotiate scriptural authority with social change ### 💡 Implications - Practice: Religious leaders need historical-critical training to contextualize ancient texts appropriately - Policy: Educational standards should include media literacy about conspiracy theories and ancient text interpretation - Security: Extremist movements often exploit literalist biblical interpretation to justify oppression - Education: Biblical studies curricula should emphasize cultural context and literary analysis - Funding: Support needed for public education about academic biblical scholarship ### 🧠 Learning Styles Assessment Reading level estimate: College/Graduate Level #### 👀 Visual learners - Present: None currently - Improve: Timeline infographics of household code development, maps of Greco-Roman cultural influence #### 🔊 Aural learners - Present: Full podcast audio available - Improve: Chapter markers for easy navigation to specific topics #### 🗣️ Verbal learners - Present: Clear definitions of technical terms, analogies explaining complex concepts - Improve: Glossary of biblical studies terminology, pronunciation guides for Greek terms #### 🧩 Kinesthetic learners - Present: None currently - Improve: Interactive manuscript comparison tools, hands-on exercises in textual analysis #### 🧠 Logical learners - Present: Systematic argument structure, evidence-based reasoning - Improve: Formal logic diagrams of interpretive arguments, decision trees for textual analysis #### 🧑‍🤝‍🧑 Social learners - Present: Dialogue format between hosts - Improve: Discussion questions, community forum links, study group guides #### 🧘‍♀️ Solitary learners - Present: Detailed notes and references for independent study - Improve: Self-assessment questions, private journaling prompts #### 🌿 Naturalistic learners - Present: Historical evolution analogies - Improve: Connections to cultural ecosystem dynamics, adaptation metaphors ### 📊 Accessibility Assessment #### Screen reader semantics - Present: Clear heading structure in transcript - Improve: Timestamp links with descriptive text, speaker identification tags #### Keyboard navigation - Present: Standard YouTube controls - Improve: Chapter navigation, transcript search functionality #### Contrast and readability - Present: Standard YouTube interface - Improve: High-contrast transcript options, adjustable text size #### Text resizing and reflow - Present: Responsive YouTube design - Improve: Transcript text scaling options #### Media and captions - Present: Full transcript available - Improve: Professional closed captions, audio descriptions for visual references #### Forms and interactions - Present: Basic YouTube interaction - Improve: Accessible comment threading, feedback forms ### 🌍 DEIB Assessment #### Cultural breadth - Present: Limited to Western Christianity and ancient Mediterranean cultures - Improve: Include perspectives from global Christian traditions, comparative religion insights #### Inclusive language - Present: Some technical jargon defined, respectful treatment of different viewpoints - Improve: Content warnings for sensitive topics, plain language summaries #### Neurodiversity support - Present: Clear section breaks, consistent structure - Improve: Visual topic indicators, processing time acknowledgments #### Representation - Present: Male hosts discussing gender issues - Improve: Include women scholars' perspectives, diverse academic voices #### Psychological safety - Present: Respectful disagreement modeling, academic tone - Improve: Explicit community guidelines, resource lists for those impacted by religious trauma ### ✅ Logical Validity #### Strong reasoning - Deductive strength: Sound syllogistic reasoning about textual relationships and cultural adoption patterns - Inductive strength: Well-supported generalizations from specific <!-- deep-read:sections end --> ## Highlights - **Verse 22 Is Syntactically Dependent** - Ephesians 5:22 borrows a participle from verse 21 so it isn't a standalone command but part of a longer syntactic sentence. - Dan McClellan argues translators and readers often misplace the verb, affecting interpretations about mutual submission. Transcript: Dan McClellan Okay. But we're not going to focus on all of that. We're really going to zoom in on verse 22, which is... Dan Beecher Yeah, you don't want to start with 18, because 18 says, do not get drunk with wine, for that is debauchery. Dan McClellan And we don't want anybody to know that it's in the Bible. Yeah, no, no, no, no. No, no, no. That's actually where the sentence begins. And this is part of the controversy of Ephesians 5.22. And if you have heard people talk about this, I'll just read 5.22, just verse 22 from the NRSVU, and then we'll talk about why it's a bit of a mistranslation. Okay. It says, wives, be subject to your husbands as to the Lord. And then verse 23 says, for the husband is the head of the wife, just as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its savior. So, and there's a pilcrow in the NRSV UE. And for those of you who grew up on the right side of the tracks, a pilcrow the little backwards P paragraph indicator, basically. Right. And a lot of translations of the Bible present verse 22 as the beginning of a new section. It's not even its own sentence. In fact, it doesn't have a verb in it. The verb is actually a participle that is in the previous verse. Now, this is actually relevant to what's going on here. A participle is like an ing verb in Greek. So I am running has a subject, a verb, and then this gerund, running. But the verb in the sentence is am. You are saying I, and then you are connecting it to running with the verb am. Am doing run. Yeah. So that is the am is the actual verb of that clause. Right. And running is helping out. And so in verse 22, we don't even have a participle. It's verse 21 that has the participle, and verse 22 is just, we're going to borrow the force of the participle from verse 21. But even verse 21 is not its own sentence. We have to go all the way back to verse 18. Dan Beecher Okay, but I'm just going to interject here because the thing that my head was bumping up against, I don't know how ancient Greek was structured. Okay. And so I know that I've seen ancient Hebrew texts, and it's just letters without any spaces and definitely no punctuation or anything. Dan McClellan Right, right. Dan Beecher What should I be imagining when I'm thinking of an ancient Greek text? Dan McClellan Oh, same thing. It was, yeah, just continuous text. They didn't put spaces between the words. They certainly didn't have verses in the earliest manuscripts. They didn't have chapters or anything like that. Dan Beecher And no punctuation? No punctuation. Dan McClellan They didn't even have the diacritics. If you look in a critical edition of the Greek New Testament, you've got rough and smooth breathings. You've got acute. You've got grave. You've got circumflex accents all over the place. None of that is in the earliest manuscripts. Dan Beecher It's just the letters. So when you say it's not even the same sentence, you're getting that, or that it is the same sentence, you're getting that just grammatically. You're not getting that from any kind of markings. Dan McClellan Just syntactically, yes. And this is one of the things you learn to do when reading Greek, is you got to go, okay, where's the verb? Okay, there's a verb. All right, I'm looking for objects. I'm looking for subjects and all this kind of stuff. And Greek is very cool. In English, word order, it tells you what role certain words are playing. So I am running. The subject frequently comes first. If I say, am I running? That sounds like a question. Right. Because we've switched the subject and the verb. In Greek, the word order doesn't really matter too much. It is a case-based language. And anybody who's learned like German or something like that will know that you use case in a case-based language, the word form itself changes to tell you what role it is playing in the Sentence. Whether it's a subject, an object, whether the thing is being done to it or something like that, you change the way the word looks in order to indicate that, which means you can fiddle With the word order all you want. And a lot of ancient Greek poets would fiddle with the word order like crazy. Interesting. Which makes it very hard to translate. But anyway, we got to go all the way back to verse 18, and it starts with this, do not get drunk with wine, for that is debauchery. And then we get the beginning of our sentence, but be filled with the Spirit. So we have this imperative, be filled with the Spirit. As you sing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs to one another, singing and making melody to the Lord in your hearts. So we've got another one of these participles, singing. Giving thanks to God the Father at all times and for everything in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. Being subject to one another out of reverence for Christ. So the the Spirit. Being filled with the Spirit either is caused by these other things, by the singing and by the giving thanks and by the being subject, or it results in the singing, the giving thanks, The being subject. And then we get to verse 22, which is again, kind of borrowing the participle from the verse before. So wives being subject to your husbands as to the Lord. ([Time 0:02:40](https://share.snipd.com/snip/b39363dd-a2f5-4b0f-a2d9-b637ba38bd09)) - **Mutual Submission Argument Faces Verse 23** - Some defenders claim verse 21's mutual submission covers wives and husbands equally by supplying the verb for verse 22. - McClellan notes verse 23 then reasserts a hierarchical husband-head metaphor that undercuts that reading. Transcript: Dan McClellan So wives being subject to your husbands as to the Lord. And an apologist who wants, well, there are actually two people who make this argument. There are folks who want this to not be misogynistic. They want this to be something that is not misogyny. The verbal force of verse 21 is feeding verse 22, and verse 21 says being subject to one another out of reverence for Christ, you maybe borrow that sense. And so really what this is saying is wives and husbands, you're both going to be subject to each other. Dan Beecher So sometimes folks will argue that. But then verse 23 exists. Right. Dan McClellan Yes, that's the main problem with this, because it then goes on to explain, yes, the husband is like Jesus, and the wife is like the church. Right. And so the wife has to submit to the husband as the church submits to Jesus. But then the other thing that folks who don't want this to be misogynistic will point out is that, well, wait a minute, wait a minute. The husband has to love the wife as Jesus loved the church. Jesus died for the church. The husband has to have this self-sacrificing, unending love for his wife, which means it's fair. It's okay. Because while the wife's got to make the sandwiches and got to do the dishes and got to do the laundry and got to do the vacuuming and everything like that every single day because the husband Said so, one day, probably not, but maybe one day he'll have to sacrifice his life for her, but probably not. Dan Beecher And so it's even. I see that so much in the sort of the Christian manosphere. Yeah. You know, when these guys are talking about how their job is as protector and provider and blah, blah, blah. And in their minds, when they start talking about this protector role, they bring up scenarios that are vanishingly small percentage chance that this could happen. Like, you're not going to get attacked in the way that you're imagining, but they're, you know, they're making themselves these grand heroes in their own imagination. Yeah. Dan McClellan It's a power fantasy. And ([Time 0:08:36](https://share.snipd.com/snip/02cef92f-e3da-4c5a-b9fc-998e33db6348)) - **Household Codes Mirror Greco‑Roman Norms** - Ephesians' household instructions mirror Greco-Roman household-code genres that list husband-wife, parent-child, master-slave roles. - McClellan shows the author repurposes cultural norms into Christian theological justification. Transcript: Dan McClellan We've been talking about the congregation as a whole, and then we say mutually submit to each other, and that submitting participle then becomes the hinge on which we pivot to what's Called household codes. And this is kind of a standard genre in the Greco-Roman period within broader Greco-Roman literature. So not just Jewish and Christian, but broader Greco-Roman literature. In fact, what the author is appealing to is a pretty standardized kind of checklist of the people involved. And to demonstrate this, I want to read a little something from Aristotle. This is Aristotle on government. Since it is now evident of what parts a city is composed, it will be necessary to treat first of family government, for every city is made up of families, and every family has again its Separate parts of which it is composed. When a family is complete, it consists of free men and slaves. But as in every subject, we should begin with examining into the smallest parts of which it consists. And as the first and smallest parts of a family are the master and slave, the husband and wife, the father and child, let us first inquire into these three what each of them may be and what They ought to be. That is to say, the herile, the nuptial, and the paternal. Let these then be considered as the three distinct parts of a family. What are the three things that the author addresses in between verse 22 and the beginning of chapter 6? Husband and wife, children, and slave people. So this is a pretty standardized way of approaching the question of the household and how it is governed. ([Time 0:14:04](https://share.snipd.com/snip/d94f0dd1-9a6d-4969-8df1-22a1c6d2c450)) - **Christian Texts Adopted Patriarchal Conventions** - Greek and Roman authors (Aristotle, Philo, Josephus) normalized female inferiority, and early Christian texts adopted similar conventions. - McClellan argues Christianity grafted gospel rationales onto prevailing patriarchy rather than transcending social norms. Transcript: Dan Beecher Perfectly in line with— It sounds quite Ephesian. Dan McClellan But yeah, this is very clearly a systemic power asymmetry. The idea that women are inferior, therefore they must submit, therefore they must be obedient, therefore the husband is in charge, is misogyny. Dan Beecher I mean, this goes back to, you know, we talked just a couple weeks ago about the ideas of adultery and how, and how it's the, the absolute double standard of like sexual double standard Between men and women. Yeah. Dan McClellan Yeah. Dan Beecher I, I, it, I should come as zero surprise to anybody that, that, that, you know, this patriarchal view is, is what is, is what is being promoted at that time in this region. It just seems right. And, of course, now, as you point out, the Greek influence is permeating the Jewish culture as well. So you get added and perhaps more nuanced patriarchy and misogyny. Dan McClellan And there are so many different ways. A lot of people don't realize it. There are so many different ways Greek philosophy and Greco-Roman society contributed to Christianity becoming what it is and contributed to the parting of the ways between Christianity And Judaism. Because one of the things that Judaism did with rabbinic Judaism, one of its priorities was trying to divest itself of this influence of the Gentile world. And there are debates to be had about the effectiveness and how committed to it everybody was. But there's a reason that rabbinic Judaism and down to the Judaism of today is very, very distinct from Greco-Roman period Judaism. And it was precisely a refutation of that influence. They went back to the Hebrew Bible and said, you know what, we're not going to do as much philosophizing like Philo and Josephus did. We're going to get back into the text of the Hebrew Bible, and we're going to engage in halakhic interpretations, hermeneutics, which is really just saying, what is the text telling Us? And that is one of the things I think that contributes to Judaism having a lot of positions that are far more closely aligned with what the Hebrew Bible says than does Christianity, which Is far more influenced by Greek philosophy. Idea about insolument and abortion, up to and including the enthusiastic Christian adoption of Greco-Roman patriarchy and social conventions. And that's not to say that rabbinic Judaism was an ally. Dan Beecher The bastion of feminism that is rabbinic Judaism. Dan McClellan No, no, no, no, no, no. But it is to say that Christianity leaned heavily into the influence of Greco-Roman social conventions. And Ephesians, you have it elsewhere. The pastoral epistles as well appeal to these household code ideas. And really what it is, is it is the authors saying, we like this social convention, we're taking it, this is ours now, and we're going to come up with a gospel rationalization for it. We're going to explain it in a Christological way. So you have the author doing that here in Ephesians 5 and Ephesians 6. ([Time 0:22:34](https://share.snipd.com/snip/a1b1feb0-2e63-4720-adb8-44b24d857402)) - **Theology Used To Legitimize Social Norms** - Early Christians often created theological rationales to legitimize existing social practices rather than oppose them. - McClellan highlights this process in passages like 1 Corinthians 11 and Ephesians 5. Transcript: Dan McClellan And Ephesians, you have it elsewhere. The pastoral epistles as well appeal to these household code ideas. And really what it is, is it is the authors saying, we like this social convention, we're taking it, this is ours now, and we're going to come up with a gospel rationalization for it. We're going to explain it in a Christological way. So you have the author doing that here in Ephesians 5 and Ephesians 6. But this is the same thing that happens in 1 Corinthians 11 with Paul saying women have to cover their heads when they're praying and prophesying. That was just a convention. And Paul's like, well, what if we said that it's about Christ is the head of the man, the man is the head of the woman, so therefore if a woman's head is uncovered, she's glorifying the man, But she needs to be glorifying God, so she's got to cover it. It's just saying, let's slap a gospel rationalization onto the Greco-Roman social convention we're adopting. Right. Because we're, again, leaning heavy into that. So when people talk about Christians not caring what society does, that's the exact opposite of what happened. ([Time 0:25:57](https://share.snipd.com/snip/5c637e79-ec5b-44fa-90f3-87b134499f7c)) - **Read Biblical Laws As Historically Contingent** - Do treat biblical laws as historically contingent snapshots rather than eternally fixed rules. - Dan Beecher recommends updating social practices as cultures advance and learn more. Transcript: Dan Beecher You know what I mean? But I think one of the things that can be comforting in all this is that the laws change from Old Testament to New. Like, the fact is that laws change. Even within the Bible, the law continually changes and modifies itself. Dan McClellan Well, even you can just, and I'll let you finish your point here, but even before you transitioned from the Hebrew Bible to the New Testament, things were changing. Yeah. You can just look at the Septuagint, the ancient Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible. Already they're reinterpreting stuff all over the place. And that's one of the things that Jesus was doing too. So I don't want to, I'm just saying this because I don't want to create this binary between Hebrew Bible versus New Testament. Dan Beecher Totally understand that. Yeah, and that makes sense. The Hebrew Bible actually spans more time, and therefore it would make sense for the Hebrew Bible to actually have more changes even inside of itself. ([Time 0:33:05](https://share.snipd.com/snip/69c34c6b-7163-41fb-a257-17c359ab6906)) - **Ezekiel's Vision As 'Pimped' Divine Throne** - Dan McClellan reads Ezekiel 1 and jokes some interpret it as a spaceship description but he frames it as apocalyptic throne imagery. - He imagines Ezekiel 'pimping God's ride' so God could visit exiles in Babylon. Transcript: Dan McClellan Ezekiel 1.4. As I looked, a stormy wind came out of the north, a great cloud with brightness around it and fire flashing forth continually. And in the middle of the fire, something like gleaming amber. So if you're thinking the movie Independence Day, where the thing is coming through the clouds, Like that's kind of what I think some people imagine. Okay. In the middle of it was something like four living creatures. This was their appearance. They were of human form. Each had four faces and each of them had four wings. Dan Beecher Okay. I'm going to just say that's not of human form. I'm just going to like if you can't tell me that they are human form and then but they have wings and four faces that's just that's not how human form is if the faces look human then sure and Dan McClellan I mean you don't do you have do you have another thing to compare it to just skip that you don't have to say it. Dan Beecher Okay, fine. Go. Keep going. Dan McClellan Their legs were straight, and the soles of their feet were like the sole of a calf's foot, and they sparkled like burnished bronze. Under their wings, on their four sides, they had human hands, and the four had their faces and their wings thus. Their wings touched one another. Each of them moved straight ahead without turning as they moved. As for the appearance of their faces, the four had the face of a human being, the face of a lion. On the right side, the face of an ox on the left side, and the face of an eagle. Such were their faces. Their wings were spread out above. Each creature had two wings, each of which touched the wing of another, while two covered their bodies. Each moved straight ahead. Wherever the spirit would go, they went without turning as they went in the middle of the living creatures there was something that looked like burning coals of fire like torches moving To and fro among the living creatures the fire was bright and lightning issued from the fire the living creatures darted to and fro like a flash of lightning and i think we can just pause Here for a little bit but can i just say, you've convinced me I believe they are aliens. Dan Beecher That description to me is sufficient to say, yeah, we're talking about aliens. Dan McClellan I don't know why anyone's arguing with this. I mean, what else is it going to be? Do you have another category for this? Yes, we do. It's apocalyptic imagery. Right. This is just, and a lot of people, you know, this is one of the things that convinces a lot of people that they were all on drugs back then. Like not every apocalyptic author was on drugs. Dan Beecher Okay. I mean, it wouldn't hurt to come up with this kind of imagery. I think drugs is a perfectly reasonable explanation for what's happening here. Dan McClellan And Ezekiel looks at the living creatures. I saw a wheel on the earth beside the living creatures, one for each of the four of them. And here's something that gets brought up. You've heard of Dyson spheres, right? Yes. And there was a paper. But you need to explain. Dan Beecher It's a sphere, but it's like a planet, but you live on the inside. It's hollow, right? Dan McClellan Well, the idea is, the idea is this is a hypothesized, if there were these advanced civilizations, what would, what we would expect to see a lot more energy coming off these planets, Unless they created these things around the planets to absorb the energy. And that would explain why planets of certain mass, certain whatever, might be giving off less energy than we expect them to give off. And there was a paper, and I'm sure I'm getting that very wrong, and anybody out there who is an expert in this is going to be like, I'm so disappointed in you, Dan. Me too. Me too. But there was a paper published a bit ago that said, if there is such a thing as Dyson spheres, here are some candidates. Here are some planets we've identified that would be giving off less energy than we would expect. And it was just a hypothetical, like, hey, if we imagine that these things exist, these are a handful of planets or a handful of celestial objects that could be. And people took that to mean we've discovered Dyson spheres. Right. Because people don't read. Right. Dan Beecher And so, but- Can we just say, like, for the sake, just for everyone out there, the concept of a Dyson sphere is impossible. Basically, like, you can't- Yeah, you wouldn't have the materials. Dan McClellan You wouldn't have the, it's just impossible. Yeah. But when we get to this part of Ezekiel, a lot of people are like, that's what the Dyson sphere is. Because they looked at artist renderings of what a Dyson sphere might look like. But as for the appearance of the wheels and their construction, their appearance was like the gleaming of barrel. And the four had the same form, their construction being something like a wheel within a wheel. When they moved, they moved in any of the four directions without veering as they moved. Their rims were tall and handsome, for the rims of all four were full of eyes all around. When the living creatures moved, the wheels moved beside them. And when the living creatures rose from the earth, the wheels rose. Dan Beecher What you're saying is spaceship. That's exactly what you're saying. Dan McClellan Spaceship, yeah. And actually, I tend to think that what Ezekiel is actually doing here is trying to say that God's throne was pimped. We pimped God's ride by mobilizing it, giving it these wheels that have to be fantastical and have to be grotesque and have to be all these things because it there's a throne on top of a Dan Beecher Platform on top of wheels yeah so like the the idea which if you just describe it like that not that cool but if it's like wheels within wheels and it's going like left right up and down you Dan McClellan Don't know which way blinking eyes all over and and the reason that i think ezekiel doing is this, Ezekiel's sitting on the river in Babylon. They're exiled. They cannot access their God that is way back in the temple in Jerusalem that has been destroyed. Woe is us. What are we going to do? We cannot sing the song of Adonai in a foreign land. And suddenly they hear the rumbling of God's new ride because suddenly the throne, which used to be stuck in the temple has now been pimped out and God can just floor it over to Babylon And ride his throne on his platform on his wheels to come visit. Dude's got a new Cadillac and he is ready to rumble. And it's got eyes all over it. And so, so I'm going to say, I'm going to say something that sounds a little weird. It's not that far off to think of this as kind of like a flying saucer or a UFO, because I think Ezekiel was probably thinking, what if God's throne had wheels and could fly? ([Time 0:46:31](https://share.snipd.com/snip/e8603f29-d094-4f4e-a446-4321e5c4b7c1)) - **Flying Scrolls Are Apocalyptic Symbols** - Zechariah 5's flying scroll and basket are apocalyptic metaphors describing wickedness and judgment, not technology. - McClellan stresses ancient authors used bizarre imagery to provoke moral action, not to report aircraft. Transcript: Dan McClellan And this is, I'm just going to jump right into it because there's no prepping for this. Again, I looked up and saw a flying scroll. And he said to me, what do you see? I answered, I see a flying scroll its length is 20 cubits and its width is 10 cubits and i'm googling real quick how uh 20 cubits is about 30 feet ish um then he said to me this is the curse that Goes out over the face of the whole land for everyone who has stolen as is forbidden on one side, has gone unpunished. And everyone who has sworn falsely, as is forbidden on the other side, has gone unpunished. I have sent it out, said the Lord of hosts, and it shall enter the house of the thief and the house of anyone who swears falsely by my name, and it shall abide in that house, and consume it, Both timber and stones. Dan Beecher I gotta say, a flying scroll does not sound to me like a fighter jet. I don't know what these people are talking about. Dan McClellan I think of, do you remember the meme where the guy finds the scroll of truth, and then reads it, and you know, whatever inconvenient truth is on there, and then he goes, yeah, and chucks It. That's what I think of with the flying scroll, but it gets better. Then the angel who spoke with me came forward and said to me, look up and see what this is that is coming out. I said, what is it? He said, this is a basket coming out. And he said, this is their iniquity in the whole land. Then a leaden cover was lifted and there was a woman sitting in the basket. And he said, this is wickedness. So he thrust her back into the basket and pressed the leaden weight down on its mouth. Then I looked up and saw two women coming forward. The wind was in their wings. They had wings like the wings of a stork. And they lifted up the basket between earth and sky. Then I said to the angel who spoke with me, why are they taking the basket? Where, excuse me, are they taking the basket? He said to me, to the land of Shinar, to build a house for it. ([Time 0:56:53](https://share.snipd.com/snip/9d4ce386-804c-4c59-a6b3-21844cd935d6)) - **Apocalyptic Imagery Intends Shock And Action** - Apocalyptic literature intentionally uses grotesque, bizarre images to shock and motivate audiences. - McClellan and Beecher argue these symbols function as speech acts to provoke ethical change. Transcript: Dan McClellan And it makes you dwell on it a little bit if you're taking it seriously. And, and I think that is part of the way that these were really speech acts. These were ways to achieve a goal. And the goal was to get these people to be like, don't want that to happen. And, you know, so I guess I better shape up and ship out or something right or something. I don't know what to say. Straighten up and fly right. Straighten up and fly right. So that we don't have weird scrolls flying around. Right. Inhabiting and consuming houses. Yeah. That is grotesque. That's bizarre. And that is what is intended to be achieved. This is why Revelation, people have spent so, they've just wasted so many years trying to figure out what all these symbols mean to, you know, the 21st century. Nothing. It was just imagery. Imagery. Let it do what it's there to do. Dan Beecher You don't have to, yeah. It's there to be scary. Just let it be scary. Yeah. ([Time 1:01:41](https://share.snipd.com/snip/582c51c7-c200-4f73-b62c-3b5f6bd23ac6))