Sozo and Scripture Is Bethel’s Inner Healing Ministry Truly Biblical

Sozo and Scripture: Is Bethel’s Inner Healing Ministry Truly Biblical? 🔗 **Source:** [Sozo and Scripture: Is Bethel’s Inner Healing Ministry Truly Biblical?](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FhopJXWSQQ) > [!note]+ Document Notes > tags: #inner-healing #deliverance #sozo-ministry #bethel-church #spiritual-formation #counseling > author: Remnant Radio > source: YouTube > reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FhopJXWSQQ > date created: 2024-12-28 16:13 > > # 🏷️ Title: Sozo and Scripture: Is Bethel's Inner Healing Ministry Truly Biblical? >  ## 🧰 Action Inbox - [H1] Evaluate theological framework of Trinity relationships — excessive separation concerns #trinity - [H2] Assess integration of psychology and biblical counseling — Freudian influence #psychology - [H3] Review expulsion component in deliverance ministry — incomplete process #deliverance ## 🧭 Table of Contents - [[#📝 Summary]] - [[#📖 Main Content]] - [[#🗒️ Notes]] - [[#📚 References]] - [[#🗣️ Paraphrase]] - [[#📰 Newsletter]] - [[#✅ Action Items]] - [[#🧪 Hypotheses]] - [[#📊 Methodology]] - [[#❓ Questions]] - [[#🔮 Future Research]] - [[#💡 Implications]] - [[#🧠 Learning Styles Assessment]] - [[#📊 Accessibility Assessment]] - [[#🌍 DEIB Assessment]] - [[#✅ Logical Validity]] - [[#🛡️ DARVO Analysis]] - [[#🎯 Conclusion]] ### 🔗 References - [Sozo Ministry](https://www.sozo.org) - [Bethel Church](https://www.bethel.com) ## 📝 Summary - **What happened:** Remnant Radio examined Bethel's Sozo inner healing ministry, analyzing its structure, biblical foundations, and practical applications - **Why it matters:** Sozo has become widely adopted in charismatic churches for addressing emotional wounds and spiritual bondages - **Key stakeholders:** Charismatic pastors, inner healing practitioners, Christians seeking emotional and spiritual freedom - **Risks and tradeoffs:** Benefits of structured healing approach versus concerns about Trinity separation and incomplete deliverance - **Bottom line takeaway:** Sozo contains helpful elements like repentance and truth replacement but has theological concerns around Trinity understanding and deliverance completion ## 📖 Main Content Sozo Ministry, developed by Donna DeSilva at Bethel Church, aims to provide holistic healing—spiritual, emotional, and physical—based on the Greek word meaning "saved, healed, delivered." The ministry uses structured tools to address relational wounds and spiritual bondages through guided prayer sessions. The core methodology involves two primary tools: the Father Ladder (addressing relationships with Trinity persons through earthly relationship patterns) and the Four Doors (identifying negative influences: fear, hatred/bitterness, sexual sin, and occult involvement). Sessions guide participants through repentance, forgiveness, and replacing lies with biblical truth. While supporters emphasize its biblical foundation in passages like Isaiah 61 (binding up the brokenhearted), critics raise concerns about the theological framework that potentially over-separates Trinity persons and the incorporation of Freudian psychology concepts without sufficient biblical warrant. ## 🗒️ Notes #### ⏱️ [00:00](https://youtu.be/3FhopJXWSQQ?t=0) — [H1] Introduction to Sozo Ministry - Key idea: Examining Bethel's inner healing and deliverance ministry for biblical legitimacy - Evidence: "From Greek word meaning saved, healed, delivered - aiming for wholeness" #### ⏱️ [03:45](https://youtu.be/3FhopJXWSQQ?t=225) — [H2] Biblical Foundation for Inner Healing - Key idea: Jesus' ministry included emotional and spiritual healing beyond physical - Evidence: "Isaiah 61 - bind up the brokenhearted, proclaim liberty to captives" #### ⏱️ [08:30](https://youtu.be/3FhopJXWSQQ?t=510) — [H3] The Father Ladder Tool - Key idea: Connects earthly relationships to divine relationships with Trinity persons - Evidence: "Father relationships affect God the Father, siblings affect Jesus, mother affects Holy Spirit" #### ⏱️ [12:15](https://youtu.be/3FhopJXWSQQ?t=735) — [H2] The Four Doors Framework - Key idea: Four primary areas where negative influences enter lives - Evidence: "Fear, hatred/bitterness, sexual sin, and occult - doors for spiritual bondage" #### ⏱️ [16:45](https://youtu.be/3FhopJXWSQQ?t=1005) — [H3] Visualization and Meditation Process - Key idea: Guided meditation helps people engage with God in memories and imagination - Evidence: "Picture Jesus in this memory, what is He saying to you" #### ⏱️ [21:30](https://youtu.be/3FhopJXWSQQ?t=1290) — [H1] Biblical Support for Mind Renewal - Key idea: Scripture strongly supports replacing lies with truth - Evidence: "Romans 12:2 - be transformed by renewing your mind" #### ⏱️ [25:20](https://youtu.be/3FhopJXWSQQ?t=1520) — [H2] Positive Aspects of Sozo - Key idea: Ministry encourages biblical practices of repentance and truth - Evidence: "2 Corinthians 10:4-5 - take every thought captive, demolish strongholds" #### ⏱️ [29:45](https://youtu.be/3FhopJXWSQQ?t=1785) — [H1] Trinity Separation Concerns - Key idea: Father Ladder creates problematic divisions between Trinity persons - Evidence: "Sounds like tritheism functionally, even if not theologically intended" #### ⏱️ [34:10](https://youtu.be/3FhopJXWSQQ?t=2050) — [H2] Miller's Personal Experience - Key idea: Personal testimony contradicts Father Ladder assumptions about abandonment - Evidence: "Father abandoned me, but God the Father was my greatest source of healing" #### ⏱️ [38:30](https://youtu.be/3FhopJXWSQQ?t=2310) — [H3] Freudian Psychology Concerns - Key idea: Ministry appears to incorporate unbiblical psychological frameworks - Evidence: "Making Freudian ideas into something biblical and divine" #### ⏱️ [42:15](https://youtu.be/3FhopJXWSQQ?t=2535) — [H1] Missing Deliverance Component - Key idea: Sozo stops short of actual demon expulsion - Evidence: "Don't think you just repent away a demon - Jesus commanded spirits to come out" #### ⏱️ [46:45](https://youtu.be/3FhopJXWSQQ?t=2805) — [H2] Inner Healing vs Deliverance Distinction - Key idea: These are different ministries that often overlap but require different approaches - Evidence: "Inner healing is wounds, deliverance is evil spirit expulsion" #### ⏱️ [50:30](https://youtu.be/3FhopJXWSQQ?t=3030) — [H3] Community and Friendship in Healing - Key idea: Much healing happens through relationships, not just prayer sessions - Evidence: "Most of my inner healing came from really good friendships" ## 📚 References - [Sozo Ministries Official](https://www.sozo.org) - [Bethel Church Resources](https://www.bethel.com) - [Isaiah 61:1-3](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah%2061%3A1-3&version=ESV) - [Romans 12:1-2](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%2012%3A1-2&version=ESV) ## 🗣️ Paraphrase - Sozo Ministry uses structured approaches to address emotional wounds and spiritual bondage through guided sessions focusing on relationships and negative influences - The ministry has strong biblical elements like encouraging repentance and truth replacement, making it helpful for many seeking spiritual and emotional healing - Concerns exist about theological framework that may over-separate Trinity persons and incomplete approach to actual deliverance from evil spirits ## 📰 Newsletter **Evaluating Popular Inner Healing Ministries** Many churches are adopting structured approaches to inner healing and deliverance. While these ministries often contain helpful biblical elements like repentance and mind renewal, church leaders should carefully evaluate their theological foundations. Key considerations: Does the approach maintain biblical Trinity doctrine? Does it complete the deliverance process? Are psychological frameworks properly integrated with Scripture? Resources: [Biblical Counseling Coalition](https://www.biblicalcounselingcoalition.org/), [CCEF Resources](https://www.ccef.org/), [Learn WordPress](https://learn.wordpress.org/) ## ✅ Action Items #### DevRel - Developer advocacy: Create resources comparing biblical counseling frameworks - Education: Develop workshops on evaluating spiritual formation methodologies - Community management: Facilitate discussions on inner healing best practices #### Community - Maintainers: Establish theological review processes for new ministries - Contributors: Develop resources for pastoral evaluation of healing methodologies - Sponsors: Fund research into effectiveness of various inner healing approaches #### WordPress - Documentation: Create guides for churches evaluating new ministry programs - Training: Develop courses on biblical foundations for spiritual formation ## 🧪 Hypotheses - Churches using structured inner healing approaches see increased engagement with emotional spiritual issues - Ministries that properly distinguish inner healing from deliverance achieve more complete freedom for participants - Clear theological frameworks for Trinity relationships prevent confusion in spiritual formation - Integration of community relationships with formal ministry sessions produces better long-term healing outcomes ### 📊 Methodology - Survey churches using various inner healing methodologies for effectiveness metrics - Compare outcomes between Sozo and other biblically-based approaches - Analyze theological frameworks of popular inner healing ministries for doctrinal accuracy ### ❓ Questions - How can churches evaluate the theological soundness of popular ministry methodologies? - What role should psychology play in biblical counseling and inner healing? - How do we maintain biblical Trinity doctrine while addressing relational wounds? ### 🔮 Future Research - Comprehensive study of inner healing ministry outcomes across denominational lines - Development of theologically sound frameworks for addressing trauma in spiritual formation - Investigation of cultural factors influencing effectiveness of different healing approaches ### 💡 Implications - **Practice:** Churches need criteria for evaluating new ministry methodologies beyond popularity - **Policy:** Denominational guidelines for theological review of healing ministries may be needed - **Education:** Seminary training should include evaluation of contemporary spiritual formation practices - **Funding:** Resources needed for developing biblically sound alternatives to questionable methodologies ### 🧠 Learning Styles Assessment Reading level estimate: Grade 12-14 #### 👀 Visual learners - Present: Clear structure breakdown of Sozo tools and processes - Improve: Diagrams comparing orthodox Trinity doctrine with concerning alternatives #### 🔊 Aural learners - Present: Podcast format with detailed discussion and personal testimonies - Improve: Audio testimonials from various perspectives on healing ministries #### 🗣️ Verbal learners - Present: Extensive definitions and theological explanations - Improve: Glossary of terms related to inner healing and deliverance #### 🧩 Kinesthetic learners - Present: Step-by-step breakdown of ministry sessions - Improve: Practical checklists for evaluating ministry methodologies #### 🧠 Logical learners - Present: Systematic evaluation of biblical foundations - Improve: Decision trees for choosing appropriate healing approaches #### 🧑‍🤝‍🧑 Social learners - Present: Discussion format with multiple perspectives - Improve: Small group study guides for church leadership teams #### 🧘‍♀️ Solitary learners - Present: Detailed theological analysis for independent study - Improve: Self-assessment tools for personal spiritual formation #### 🌿 Naturalistic learners - Present: Connections to biblical metaphors of growth and healing - Improve: Seasonal analogies for spiritual formation processes ### 📊 Accessibility Assessment #### Screen reader semantics - Present: Clear headings and structure for navigation - Improve: Better alt text for any theological diagrams or charts #### Keyboard navigation - Present: Standard video controls accessible via keyboard - Improve: Transcript navigation with timestamp links #### Contrast and readability - Present: High contrast text in video descriptions - Improve: Ensure color-coding in materials meets accessibility standards #### Text resizing and reflow - Present: Responsive text in online materials - Improve: Test materials at various zoom levels #### Media and captions - Present: Audio content with full transcript - Improve: Professional captions with speaker identification #### Forms and interactions - Present: Simple newsletter signup process - Improve: Clear error messages and validation feedback ### 🌍 DEIB Assessment #### Cultural breadth - Present: Discussion acknowledges different streams within Christianity - Improve: Include perspectives from various cultural contexts on healing #### Inclusive language - Present: Respectful treatment of different theological positions - Improve: Avoid insider language that excludes newer believers #### Neurodiversity support - Present: Clear structure and consistent format - Improve: Content warnings for discussion of trauma and spiritual abuse #### Representation - Present: Multiple male perspectives represented - Improve: Include women's voices in healing ministry discussions #### Psychological safety - Present: Respectful disagreement with theological positions - Improve: Clear guidelines for engaging with controversial topics ### ✅ Logical Validity #### Strong reasoning - Deductive strength: Clear syllogistic reasoning about Trinity doctrine and its implications - Inductive strength: Good use of personal experience to illustrate broader principles - Causal reasoning: Appropriate connections between theological frameworks and practical outcomes - Analogical strength: Helpful comparisons between healing approaches and established biblical practices #### Fallacies - False dichotomy: Occasional presentation of only two options when more exist - Hasty generalization: Some conclusions drawn from limited personal experience - Appeal to authority: Appropriate use of Scripture as ultimate authority #### Tone of voice - Overall tone: Respectful but concerned, seeking to call "balls and strikes" fairly ### 🛡️ DARVO Analysis - Deny: No denial of legitimate concerns about theological accuracy - Attack: No inappropriate attacks on persons, focus remains on practices and ideas - Reverse victim/offender: No evidence of victim blaming or role reversal - Emotional cues and rhetoric: Balanced approach acknowledging both positives and concerns ## 🎯 Conclusion Sozo Ministry contains helpful biblical elements like repentance, forgiveness, and truth replacement that align with Scripture's call for mind renewal and spiritual formation. However, significant theological concerns exist around its framework for understanding Trinity relationships and its potentially incomplete approach to deliverance. Churches considering Sozo should carefully evaluate these theological foundations while recognizing that much of the healing process happens through community relationships and ongoing spiritual formation rather than single prayer sessions. The ministry's structured approach can be beneficial when properly grounded in orthodox theology and integrated with comprehensive pastoral care. ## 🧱 Refactor Appendix ### 📚 Literature Split Pad ### [H1] Inner healing requires biblical theological foundation > [!quote] [Sozo and Scripture](https://youtu.be/3FhopJXWSQQ) by Remnant Radio via YouTube. Published 2024. Accessed 2024-12-28. > "While helping people gain truth, stopping short of truly setting captives free" Theological foundation determines ministry effectiveness and doctrinal safety. [view highlight](https://youtu.be/3FhopJXWSQQ?t=2535#H1) #xref #articleseed ID:rw_sozo_theology ### [H2] Community relationships essential for healing process > [!quote] [Sozo and Scripture](https://youtu.be/3FhopJXWSQQ) > "Most inner healing came from really good friendships, not prayer sessions" Healing happens through means of grace beyond formal ministry sessions. [view highlight](https://youtu.be/3FhopJXWSQQ?t=3030#H2) #xref ID:rw_community_healing --- ### 🔖 Atomic Split Pad (Zettel Candidates) #### [Z1] Trinity persons share inseparable operations - Augustine: "As Trinity are one, so their works are one" - Timestamp: 29:45 discussion of Trinity doctrine - Links: [[Orthodox-Trinity]] [[Sozo-Methodology]] #### [Z2] Deliverance requires expulsion not just repentance - Scripture shows clear commands --- ## Full Transcript [00:01] hey guys welcome to the wonderful world [00:02] of Remnant radio we have an exciting [00:04] show for you today we're talking about [00:07] Soo Ministry the inner healing and [00:09] Deliverance Ministry from bethl church [00:11] is it legit or not find out stay tuned [00:15] we'll be right [00:19] back you are watching The Remnant radio [00:22] show where we tackle history Theology [00:24] and the gifts of the Spirit my name is [00:26] Joshua Lewis and I'm the pastor of [00:28] King's Fellowship Church in ad Oklahoma [00:30] together with my friends Michael Miller [00:31] the pastor of reclamation Church Denver [00:33] and Michael Roundtree who's heading up [00:35] convergence OKC we set aside time every [00:37] week to discuss the gifts of the Spirit [00:39] we talk about things like how do you [00:40] pray for the sick how do you interpret [00:41] tongues and should you believe every [00:43] prophetic word for the new year you're [00:45] interested in a charismatic podcast with [00:47] practitioners who are actually doing the [00:49] stuff this is the show for [00:51] [Music] [00:52] you okay guys welcome back my name is [00:55] Michael round tree and uh usually Josh [00:58] is doing what I do here but he's been [01:00] traveling a lot lately he's uh I think [01:03] ministering to the natives in Hawaii [01:05] right now you know everybody needs the [01:07] gospel Miller um oh man so Miller's [01:11] joining me here and uh we're gonna talk [01:13] about Sozo Ministry but before we do [01:15] just want to let you guys know how you [01:17] can get connected to what we're doing we [01:18] do uh conferences we do ecourses we have [01:22] a new brand new ecourse coming up we [01:24] typically have done this one on theology [01:26] gifts of the holy spirit but one uh [01:28] focused specifically on the nyine Creed [01:30] it's going to be eight weeks long uh and [01:33] just this uh really uh Miller I'm kind [01:36] of proud of what we've created here with [01:39] the with the nyine Creed I think it's [01:40] going to really help people as an intro [01:42] to theology but all the information [01:44] about about this and many other things [01:46] you can find in our newsletter uh just [01:48] in the description of this video just [01:51] just click on the newsletter and you can [01:53] sign up for it there uh Hey Miller tell [01:56] us how you're doing over there in Denver [02:00] yeah I'm not in the basement today yeah [02:02] you look like you're in a different [02:03] place well there was no power in the [02:05] basement today so I am actually at my [02:07] friend's church called Park Church up in [02:09] h the highlands of Denver um so he has [02:13] I'm speaking tonight at their Church on [02:15] Prophecy I'll be speaking next week [02:17] again on Prophecy and so and then um [02:20] yeah and this weekend I'm heading out to [02:23] uh Rockport Missouri to teach on [02:27] Deliverance and then the following week [02:29] I head out to Le to teach on Lewis [02:31] Delaware to teach on Prophecy and here [02:33] in God so it's kind of been a wild wild [02:36] couple weeks man it's been non-stop so [02:39] yeah absolutely well lot lots of travel [02:41] for you and had a lot of fun when we got [02:43] to travel together recently and um so [02:46] we're talking about Soo and Miller you [02:49] and I uh we used to like we we became [02:53] equ acquainted with Soo together back at [02:56] uh Wellspring Church in in Dallas Fort [02:59] Worth and uh I know you were kind of [03:01] early on pretty well schooled in in the [03:04] ways of Soo again this it comes from [03:07] this Greek word which can mean saved can [03:10] mean healed can be delivered and the [03:12] idea is that we want just wholeness for [03:15] people we want to bring people to Shalom [03:18] uh to this uh to this place of Peace uh [03:22] spiritually physically which would [03:24] include healing healing of the heart Etc [03:27] and so they uh bethl Church in red in [03:30] California named the ministry Soo so [03:32] Miller you want to talk a little bit [03:34] just about kind of intro to soo and what [03:37] your introduction to it was like [03:40] personally uh sure so I actually like [03:43] early on when I was brand new to the [03:45] gifts I did a little uh pilgrimage out [03:47] to bethl uh they kind of owned The [03:50] Branding of charismatic Christianity at [03:51] the time picking up in many ways I think [03:54] for many they thought that's sort of [03:56] where the vineyard is left off it's like [03:57] Beth's really doing the stuff now um [04:00] which actually the V is still doing the [04:01] stuff which is great uh but I did go out [04:04] there and I sat in on uh some of the soo [04:07] classes they had for the Beth students [04:10] uh and then eventually there was a a [04:12] training that was done by somebody from [04:15] East Dallas who came out to Wellspring [04:17] to do a weekend workshop on it and I sat [04:19] through all the training there um and it [04:22] seemed you know at the time I had been [04:25] I've been wanting to learn about [04:26] Deliverance Ministry and what I had [04:30] gained was stuff with inner healing uh [04:33] theophostic and sozos I've kind of I've [04:35] kind of run the gamut on all of these [04:36] various Ministry components I know that [04:39] it was Donna D Silva and that's who was [04:41] teaching on it when I was at bethl um [04:44] and just you know I was never a student [04:45] of bethl I just went for a weekend uh [04:47] like four days um but she was the one [04:50] who came up with this so it's [04:51] technically her Ministry uh she was I [04:54] think a co-founder with someone else at [04:56] bethl U but the goal for them and how [04:58] she got into it was she wanted to find a [05:00] way to holistically heal the whole body [05:04] not just the physical body but also the [05:06] spiritual and emotional side of us and [05:09] so she has found that there's different [05:11] blockages and she feels like she's [05:14] discovered a way to get rid of those [05:15] blockages that stop you from [05:16] experiencing all that God has for you [05:18] and getting the healing that God has for [05:19] you and then um uh whether that be a [05:23] various sin issue or a various a [05:25] relational emotional issue between you [05:27] and God the Father uh God the son God [05:30] the holy spirit so that's kind of what I [05:32] know and I know it's been super [05:34] popularized you can go to Donna Silva's [05:35] website and find a ton of stuff on Sozo [05:38] Ministries um so I think what we'll do [05:40] is kind of I don't know maybe discuss [05:42] the various elements out of it Michael [05:44] is that correct yeah yeah go one by one [05:48] right so the plan today is we're gonna [05:49] kind of talk through like the structure [05:51] of a Sozo session like how does it [05:53] actually work and so uh you know we're [05:56] going to take the book that's been [05:57] written on this which you can buy and uh [06:00] and we're just going to kind of dissect [06:02] that process and then we're going to [06:04] look at maybe some of the positive [06:05] aspects of it as well as some of the [06:07] negative so that's basically what our [06:09] approach is today and Miller I think [06:11] even before we jump into the the uh [06:15] structure or the anatomy of a Soo [06:18] session it might be helpful for us to [06:20] talk through two things on on one side [06:23] just inner healing and Deliverance [06:24] Ministry itself because since Soo began [06:28] it had like interner healing and [06:30] deliverance has really proliferated like [06:32] we're seeing a whole lot more Ministries [06:34] started you just mentioned theophostics [06:36] which we might need you to Define too uh [06:38] and I remember that as well because we [06:40] we saw we were both part of that [06:42] training um early on when we were just [06:44] kind of like trying to figure out what [06:45] what is all this stuff we were just like [06:47] let's find out more um so anyway one [06:50] just looking at inner healing and [06:51] deliverance is this a Bible thing or is [06:54] this a pop psychology thing and uh and [06:56] then two I think maybe a few comments [06:59] about bethl church because uh certainly [07:01] anytime bethl is mentioned or anything [07:03] bethl uh there're going to be people [07:06] watching this episode to find out like [07:07] is R Radio okay with those guys and so [07:10] on and so uh a couple of things I think [07:12] we should talk about before we talk [07:14] about specifically the processes of Sozo [07:18] um maybe uh Miller do you want to start [07:21] on just kind of inner healing and [07:22] Deliverance Ministry [07:25] generally yeah yeah sure well and I'll [07:29] just I'll go and throw it out there I'm [07:31] not a huge uh I wouldn't endorse bethl I [07:34] I wouldn't suggest people to send their [07:35] kids okay start with bethl Miller we [07:37] know where you really wanted to go I I [07:40] want to say that on the front end um [07:41] even though I've received some training [07:43] and and I do think that they are seeing [07:45] really good things salvations and [07:47] healings um I'm not going to deny what [07:50] is good about that place although there [07:52] are things about it that I would endorse [07:53] so but that aside uh let's talk about [07:56] inner healing and Soo in particular um I [07:59] do believe that there is such a thing as [08:00] inner healing people say that it's not [08:02] in the Bible and I'll go well actually [08:04] kind of is like Jesus cleansing the [08:06] leper did more than just heal him of [08:09] leprosy like he laid hands on a man who [08:12] had been untouched for years and so I I [08:15] do think there is a emotional component [08:17] to us and a trauma component to us that [08:20] needs to be healed um I think the the [08:23] woman with the issue of blood as well I [08:26] think you know she had been unclean she [08:28] wasn't allowed to touch any body and yet [08:30] she she reached out and touched the Lord [08:32] and the Lord didn't rebuke her for it he [08:34] he commended her for it and so um [08:37] isolation has a a massive effect on a [08:40] person and the Lord is kind and good he [08:43] does more than just uh heal the broken [08:46] body he restores the soul as whole as a [08:48] whole I think of another person the the [08:51] guy who is a paralytic who gets healed [08:53] Jesus later says to him go and sin no [08:55] more L something worse should happen to [08:57] you and the the implication is this [08:59] guy's infirmity happened because of sin [09:02] on some level and so um and then you see [09:05] the other paralytic guy that Jesus [09:06] forgives his sins before he heals his uh [09:11] paralysis so the Lord is is constantly [09:15] in concerned with the entirety of a [09:16] person not just their broken body [09:18] although I do think that was a a big [09:20] concern of his and so with us when it [09:24] comes to Ministry we should be concerned [09:27] with those things yeah absolutely I mean [09:30] if we look at the messiah's ministry a [09:31] big part of his ministry was actually [09:34] Healing Hearts I mean you look at Isaiah [09:36] 61 which Jesus Will quote in Luke [09:39] chapter 4 uh when he begins his Earthly [09:41] Ministry and and it's a verse that [09:43] characterizes the whole of Jesus [09:45] ministry it says the spirit of the Lord [09:46] God is upon me because the Lord has [09:47] anointed me uh to bring good news to the [09:50] poor he has sent me to bind up the [09:51] Brokenhearted to Proclaim Liberty to the [09:53] captives and the O uh opening of prison [09:56] to those who are bound so we've seen so [09:58] far binding up of brokenhearted [10:01] proclaiming Liberty to captives must [10:03] mean spiritual captives um so so we have [10:07] good news to the poor financial uh [10:10] brokenhearted emotional Liberty to the [10:13] captives spiritual uh opening of prison [10:16] doors to those who are bound that's kind [10:17] of the same thing uh he'll go on in [10:19] verse two to talk about comforting those [10:21] who are Mo who mourn emotional to Grant [10:23] those who mourn in Zion to give them a [10:25] beautiful headdress instead of Ashes the [10:27] oil of gladness instead of mour there's [10:29] emotional the Garment of Praise instead [10:31] of a faint spirit I don't know what you [10:33] call it I mean a faint spirit it's kind [10:35] of spiritual kind of physical uh at [10:38] least in its effects on you so all of [10:40] that to say the messiah's ministry it [10:43] touched all levels it really was [10:46] holistic like this and uh but I think [10:48] the you know a critique of inner Healing [10:50] Ministry is kind of like yeah but these [10:52] tools you use and you're like walking [10:54] people through these prayers and so on [10:57] and it you know I I would just say like [10:59] man a lot of the prayers they they're [11:01] walking through are like prayers of [11:02] repentance right like in the same way [11:04] that if I lead someone to Jesus I'll be [11:06] like hey I might say can you repeat this [11:08] prayer after me I don't see repeat this [11:10] prayer after me in the New Testament [11:12] it's just kind of how I walk someone [11:14] along um and it's the same with with [11:17] inner healing and deliverance as you're [11:19] kind of visiting Old Wounds the of the [11:22] heart Jesus binds up the Brokenhearted [11:24] so I do think there is a place for inner [11:25] healing we have so many episodes talking [11:27] about deliverance we probably don't even [11:28] need to mentioned yes there's a place [11:31] for deliverance although Miller is [11:33] itching to talk about Deliverance well I [11:36] I wanted to say I want to put a caveat [11:37] something you said you know people will [11:39] say there's no like repeat this after me [11:41] kind of prayer but there actually is um [11:43] the Lord says you know they ask him [11:46] teach us how to pray and he tells them [11:48] exactly what to pray he gives them a [11:50] prayer of which they're going to repeat [11:52] and has been repeated now for over 2,000 [11:54] years okay yeah yeah that's a good point [11:57] and and I would share at least I would [11:59] share also what Miller said about bethl [12:02] um you know it's a different stream than [12:05] us we have shared some concerns about [12:08] bethl many times in various episodes [12:11] some on the theological level some on [12:13] the Practical level we also want to [12:15] acknowledge their siblings in Christ and [12:17] they do some really good things as well [12:20] and so this episode isn't in its [12:22] entirety like going to be able to unpack [12:25] that but we have unpacked it many times [12:28] uh just know the we see we do see them [12:30] as siblings in Christ we do not endorse [12:33] everything about them and actually have [12:35] some concerns about them as well uh I [12:38] would say probably primarily in the area [12:41] of discernment but that's probably about [12:43] all we have time for on bethl right now [12:46] uh Miller did I miss anything are we [12:48] ready to jump into I would say yeah [12:51] discernment and practices uh the going [12:54] to heaven the physics of Heaven which [12:55] we've done reviews on but yeah let's go [12:56] into Soo because most of Soo [13:00] I think as we go through this we'll all [13:01] probably go okay I can see where she's [13:03] getting this from yeah um but let's dive [13:05] into it yeah where do you want to start [13:07] Michael right so um structure of a Soo [13:10] session so uh you start with so the [13:13] initial conversation is really just uh [13:16] is kind of like an interview and say [13:18] just inviting the person to close their [13:20] eyes so they can focus better and [13:22] they're and they're encouraged to [13:25] describe how they see feel or hear each [13:29] person of the Trinity and so the idea is [13:33] they're supposed to uncover are there [13:35] any lies or blockages hindrances between [13:39] say me and the father or me and the son [13:42] or me and the Holy Spirit and so that's [13:46] where the conversation starts and this [13:48] is to build into the father ladder is [13:51] the tool and I'll have Miller explain [13:52] the father ladder in a moment now we're [13:55] going to try our best to reserve [13:57] judgment on these things until [13:59] the end of the episode for now we just [14:02] want to educate you on what they say but [14:04] basically it's kind of an initial [14:06] meditational state where you're trying [14:09] to evaluate the person's relationship [14:12] with the three persons of the Trinity [14:14] now revisiting if you're watching or [14:16] listening and don't know as Christians [14:18] we believe in a Triune God one God uh [14:22] who exists uh in three persons God the [14:25] Father God the son God the Holy Spirit [14:28] and uh so the father is God the son is [14:30] God the spirit is God yet we believe in [14:32] one God the persons of the Trinity are [14:34] co-equal that is they are equal in every [14:37] way uh each Divine uh and yet and also [14:41] co-eternal and so this is the kind of [14:44] language we've typically used to speak [14:46] of the Trinity uh and yet we are a [14:49] monotheistic religion we believe in one [14:51] God and so uh Soo begins with this [14:56] breakdown of the persons of the Trinity [14:58] which I'm definitely going to have some [14:59] comments on a little bit later but [15:01] Miller uh talk us through the father [15:04] ladder for somebody who's never heard of [15:06] the father ladder what in the world is [15:08] this [15:09] Tool uh so I went through a Sozo session [15:12] and they walked through this with me and [15:14] so uh one of the questions they're going [15:16] to ask you is how do you relate to the [15:18] father and in based on your answers [15:20] there that that's going to key in for [15:23] them if there's some sort of Hiccup [15:25] between you and your relationship with [15:26] the father that person of the trinity [15:29] then um they're going to start asking [15:31] you about your Earthly father and the [15:32] kind of conflicts that you had there or [15:34] relational Dynamics there and then walk [15:36] you through various prayers of [15:38] forgiveness um or inner healing [15:41] experiences uh where where you may [15:43] invite Jesus into a memory or the father [15:45] into a memory um and to reevaluate those [15:48] things uh then and even if your father [15:52] is gone they'll ask you to have a prayer [15:54] if your father's passed on they'll lead [15:56] you through a prayer that's in likely in [15:58] the [16:01] IM sense meditative sense or prophetic [16:05] sense um and then they'll do the same [16:07] thing about tell us about your [16:09] relationship with the Holy Spirit and [16:11] they would equate that to your [16:12] relationship with your mother so if [16:13] there's some sort of Hiccup there in [16:15] your relationship with the Holy Spirit [16:16] then immediately the next thing is what [16:18] what happened with you and your mom so [16:19] that you need to start walking through [16:20] prayers and forgiveness regarding your [16:22] mother and then the same thing would be [16:23] done with your relationship with Jesus [16:26] um if you have some sort of Hiccup there [16:29] there where you don't trust Jesus or you [16:31] feel betrayed by Jesus or uh you don't [16:33] feel close to Jesus and you can't see [16:35] Jesus then they're going to start [16:37] digging into various brother sister [16:39] relationships or friendship [16:41] relationships uh to find out who you [16:43] need to forgive there who's uh wrongly [16:46] represented Jesus to you through that [16:48] kind of relationship and so each person [16:51] of the Trinity they sort of uh we'll say [16:54] has been impacted by particular [16:57] relational Dynamics in your child [16:58] childhood and or your upbringing and [17:01] relationships yeah yeah okay so then uh [17:05] the next tool after the father ladder [17:07] which focuses on Earthly relationships [17:10] and their supposed Bridge uh toward [17:13] Divine relationships with persons of the [17:16] Trinity um then they move to the four [17:19] doors and so the four doors is less [17:22] relational focused although there's an [17:24] element of that and more emotion focused [17:27] like what emotions potentially sinful [17:30] emotions are you struggling with so the [17:33] four doors specifically uh they're [17:35] they're doors for negative influences to [17:38] come into your lives so uh the first one [17:40] is fear uh so fear anxiety you need to [17:44] control uh isolation which can come from [17:48] Fear so uh so the first focus is fear uh [17:52] the second is hatred SL bitterness and [17:55] so anywhere where there's anger or Envy [17:58] these two are related uh biblically so [18:01] Psalm [18:02] 27:4 uh it says anger is cruel and fury [18:06] overwhelming but who can stand before [18:08] jealousy and so that kind of jealousy [18:11] Envy uh is a form of anger and uh and so [18:14] they'll focus on that a as well as like [18:17] if you have a low self-worth so that [18:19] would be the hatred is directed towards [18:22] yourself and of course Miller and I [18:24] would agree we all these things need to [18:26] be dealt with um and I guess we're [18:29] trying to save evaluation for later but [18:32] fear hatred bitterness then sexual sin [18:37] is another one of the four doors and [18:39] that goes without explanation and then [18:42] the occult so any sort of I mean the [18:44] obvious stuff is like Witchcraft and [18:46] Satanism but it can also extend to did [18:49] you ever play with a Ouija board when [18:51] you were a child like you know Miller [18:54] and I at a at a recent conference I I [18:56] think we already told about this on a [18:57] podcast but uh the one right after it [19:00] happened but somebody who had just done [19:02] some dabbled in occultic things as like [19:05] a 12y old or something and uh fainted on [19:09] the whenever we broke off uh oh yeah [19:13] yeah just a cultic spiritual ties and [19:16] cast out a cultic Spirits uh anyway so [19:20] uh so they'll deal with that and um [19:23] anyway so those are the big four and so [19:26] what the the what the min Minister will [19:29] do is they'll have the person close [19:31] those doors by uh renouncing these Doors [19:35] by asking God's for uh forgiveness and [19:38] beginning to replace whatever lies they [19:40] might have been believing that leads to [19:41] low self-worth um with the truth of like [19:44] what is my worth in God and so they [19:46] begin to walk through like again closing [19:49] those doors uh renouncing the lies and [19:52] replacing them with God's truth yeah so [19:55] you see with both the four doors and the [19:57] father ladder the the four the father [19:59] lad is going to have various relational [20:01] dynamics that you're going to ident be [20:02] able to identify based on your [20:04] relationship with Father Son and Holy [20:06] Spirit um so in that you may identify [20:10] areas where forgiveness is needed for [20:12] various people who harmed you but then [20:14] also you're going to need to identify [20:15] the various lies you've believed and [20:17] replace them with truth and then you're [20:19] doing the same thing with the four doors [20:21] you've committed certain practices those [20:24] practices need to be renounced and [20:26] repented from uh ask for forgiveness and [20:30] then also if there's any lies associated [20:32] with those practices that got you into [20:35] those practices you'll have to repent [20:36] from those lies and embrace the truth so [20:39] it's it's a lot like um with the with [20:42] the whole identifying lies replacing [20:44] them with truth that's a lot like Neil T [20:46] Anderson or some of Andrew wm's on [20:49] harnessing your [20:50] emotions and very similar to my own [20:53] stuff when it comes to the Overcomers [20:55] Journal um at least I'm seeing a lot of [20:57] those similar 30s and I don't think [21:00] anybody's anybody would would uh have [21:04] any problem with the idea of of [21:06] repenting from lies you've believed and [21:08] replacing them with truth but that is a [21:10] main thing and the Sozo minister is [21:12] going to walk you through each of those [21:14] various areas or ties uh and negative [21:17] influences replacing them with God's [21:18] truth yeah yeah and so this process I [21:21] mean it sounds like you could walk [21:22] through it quickly but it because it's [21:25] only a few steps but it actually takes a [21:27] while you know there there's sort of [21:29] this like going into a meditational [21:31] state and the person is kind of guiding [21:33] you and okay renounce this uh what is [21:36] the truth let's ask the Holy Spirit to [21:38] give you a truth and then uh you know [21:41] what scripture comes to mind uh and [21:43] they're just kind of guided through this [21:45] process that is just kind of like [21:47] repeatedly renouncing lies and replacing [21:49] with God's truth and uh and then [21:52] afterward you say [21:53] meditative you're not meeting new age [21:56] meditation you're talking about going [21:57] into memories [21:59] uh or uh using your imagination to [22:03] engage with God or the scriptures he's [22:06] not he's not referring to like Spirit [22:07] travel or those kind of things just [22:09] correct correct well you you uh there is [22:12] visualization and so which is a little [22:16] dis I mean it it is distinct from say [22:19] receiving a vision one is passive the [22:21] other is active and so we have lots of [22:24] examples of Visions in the Bible and uh [22:28] but visualization it it could be like [22:31] okay picture this memory where were you [22:35] and what were you doing in this memory [22:37] and what is Jesus doing in this memory [22:39] and what is he saying to you in this [22:41] memory that kind of thing so so there is [22:44] some visualization is that how you [22:46] experienced it Miller when you did it [22:48] yeah absolutely and I mean I've always [22:51] struggled to know even with visions that [22:53] I've had uh it's it's always been a [22:55] struggle to know how much of this is me [22:57] and how much of this is God stepping in [22:59] and it's passive that that line between [23:02] active and passive I don't know how [23:04] clearly I've been able to personally [23:05] determine those two things have you [23:08] Michael um yeah I I I can see how it can [23:13] be difficult because like let's say [23:14] you're trying to hear the lord well I [23:16] mean what I try to do is I try to just [23:19] like just think about the Lord you know [23:21] meditate on I mean maybe scripture [23:25] verses or whatever but like inevitably [23:27] you know pictures can pop into your mind [23:29] and this could just be you imagining [23:31] stuff right [23:32] like so where is the line between you're [23:35] imagining stuff and maybe God speaks [23:38] through one of those pictures is that [23:39] kind of what you're talking about yeah I [23:42] just it's really hard to know the [23:43] difference between uh those two things [23:47] like God you know I I think he's using [23:49] our normal faculties to speak to us and [23:52] I think that's kind of what the soo aim [23:54] here is is that um I think of the the [23:57] passage in Romans 12 where he says in [24:00] verse one therefore I urge your brothers [24:01] of view of God's mercy to offer your [24:02] body as a Living Sacrifice holy and [24:04] pleasing to God um when we give our [24:07] lives to the Lord Jesus there's no part [24:09] of us that's off limits like he gets [24:12] everything my mind my imagination my [24:15] thoughts we're told to they take every [24:17] thought captive so like he he's allowed [24:19] to to have all of it and so if he wants [24:22] to step into some something that has [24:24] been imagined in my mind step into that [24:27] process like who am I to tell him no to [24:29] that if anything I I welcome him into [24:32] all of those things like yes Lord give [24:33] me good thoughts let me set my mind on [24:35] things above um so I think that's kind [24:38] of the aim here uh with some of the [24:40] meditative stuff that they're doing but [24:42] the goal for the soo ministers to help [24:45] people replace lies that they've [24:47] identified through this uh through the [24:49] questions and prompts that they're [24:50] asking the father ladder or the four [24:52] doors and then um help them uh gain the [24:56] truth and the truth is also through done [24:59] through a [25:00] meditative process of asking the Lord to [25:03] tell you hey what's the truth about this [25:04] thing that I've been believing yeah yeah [25:07] and I would say the meditative process [25:09] also includes like uh Psalm 139 search [25:12] me and know my heart test me and know my [25:14] anxious thoughts see if there is any [25:16] offensive way in me and Lead Me in the [25:17] way Everlasting you know what what is [25:19] God convicting you of what is he [25:21] speaking to you about with regard to any [25:24] sin whether it be like in those four [25:26] doors or unforgiveness and one of those [25:29] relationships and the father ladder and [25:30] so on and they'll walk you through both [25:33] steps of repentance as well as steps of [25:35] forgiveness forgiveness is like is [25:38] really a huge part they'll emphasize say [25:40] releasing judgment and those kinds of [25:42] things um but to come back to what what [25:45] you said Miller um you talked about the [25:48] renewing of the mind and you quoted [25:50] Romans 122 you know don't be transformed [25:53] or sorry do be transformed don't be [25:55] conformed be conformed yeah to the [25:57] pattern of this world but transformed [25:58] how by the renewing of your mind get rid [26:02] of the false beliefs put on the right [26:05] beliefs similar language in Ephesians 4 [26:09] it says you were taught with regard to [26:10] your former way of life to put off your [26:11] old self which is being corrupted by [26:13] deceitful desires to be made new in the [26:16] attitude of your minds and to put on the [26:19] new self created to be like God in true [26:21] righteousness and Holiness so the the [26:24] bridge from the old self to the new self [26:27] is the mind and that's uh that renewing [26:31] of the mind you see it in Ephesians 4 [26:32] you see it in Romans 12 and so Miller I [26:36] think we can begin moving towards some [26:37] evaluation here these are some positive [26:41] aspects of the soo Ministry is that it [26:45] helps walk people through renewing of [26:47] your mind why why would it be a bad [26:50] thing to help Christians obey the Bible [26:53] I think Christians would all have to say [26:54] that's a good thing and that's what Soo [26:56] is aiming to do by identifying those [26:59] lies now there might be some meditative [27:01] State there might be some deep [27:03] introspection allowing the Holy Spirit [27:05] to reveal sin to reveal lies or I think [27:08] of Philippians 3:5 if anyone thinks [27:10] differently on these things God will [27:12] reveal it to you sometimes I I want to [27:14] quote that one more to my cessationist [27:15] brothers and sisters who believe God [27:17] stopped revealing after the Bible but [27:19] Paul says in Philippians 3:5 he does [27:21] reveal anyway so um maybe it's not 35 [27:25] maybe it's 312 anyway somewhere in there [27:27] I think it is a little lower or later um [27:30] so uh all that to say um they're [27:33] entering into this meditative state [27:34] they're asking God to reveal and uh what [27:37] are the lies and what are the truths and [27:39] I really believe that every bad behavior [27:41] in my life is somewhere rooted in a bad [27:44] belief this takes us back to Eden where [27:48] the bad behavior of eating the fruit is [27:51] rooted in a bad belief surely you know [27:54] surely you know God did not say you'll [27:56] surely die and you know like you can be [27:58] like God and you know the deceiver came [28:01] in and deceived and so uh I I think that [28:04] is a paradigm for all sin whatever sin I [28:07] commit it's because I believe something [28:09] wrong about God about myself about God's [28:12] word and uh and so I think that's a [28:15] positive thing Miller uh yeah yeah go [28:18] ahead well the the minister as well and [28:21] and I don't uh I I'm pretty sure this is [28:23] the case that when a person uh is [28:26] hearing from God what the the truth is [28:28] about a particular lie that they had [28:30] been previously believing the minister [28:32] who is leading them through this process [28:34] will make sure that it is scriptural so [28:37] if it contradicts the scripture any way [28:38] they would likely correct it you know [28:40] some people have very overactive [28:42] imaginations and they um that their [28:45] imaginations can feel so real to them um [28:48] and so that the minister is is trained [28:51] to help them sift through those things [28:53] by using the scriptures to ground them [28:56] in truth um [28:58] yeah and I think I think there's a lot [29:00] of biblical precedence for this one of [29:03] the the passages that I've used that's [29:05] honestly inspired me with the journal [29:07] that I created to help people with this [29:08] very process uh was 2 Corinthians [29:11] chapter 10: 4-5 he says the weapons of [29:14] that we fight with are not weapons of [29:15] the world on the contrary they have [29:18] divine power to demolish strongholds we [29:21] demolish arguments and every pretention [29:24] that sets it s up against the knowledge [29:26] of God we take every thought captive to [29:28] make it obedient to Christ now the way I [29:31] typically explain this is that a [29:33] stronghold of the mind is a belief [29:35] system we have it's a lie that feels [29:38] true and then when we think about the [29:41] truth it doesn't evoke an emotion uh it [29:44] doesn't feel true that's how you know if [29:46] you have one of these strongholds of the [29:47] mind or a particular lie you've been [29:50] believing and I I would I would [29:51] categorize those lies into Lies We [29:53] believe about the world around us uh [29:55] Lies We believe about God Lies We [29:57] Believe believe about ourselves that's [30:00] kind of encompasses the the gamut of the [30:02] kinds of lies that we believe and we're [30:04] supposed to take those lies those [30:06] thoughts as they come into our head [30:07] captive in accordance with 2 Corinthians [30:10] 104-5 so what I'm seeing here with Soo [30:12] is that's largely what they're trying to [30:14] help people do um another passage I [30:16] think is helpful is Philippians 48 says [30:19] finally brothers and sisters whatever is [30:21] true whatever is Noble whatever is right [30:23] whatever is pure whatever is lovely [30:25] whatever is admirable if anything is [30:28] excellent or praiseworthy think about [30:31] such things so not only do we take [30:33] thoughts captive but we're replacing [30:35] them with truth that is grounded in [30:37] something of the quality of Philippians [30:40] 48 yeah I love that verse it's almost [30:43] like Paul is just saying think happy [30:45] thoughts you know yes but it's so [30:48] powerfully where we powerful like where [30:50] we set our minds I mean so it's like [30:52] generally just let positive thoughts be [30:55] running through your brain throughout [30:57] the day but then specifically especially [30:59] let God thoughts be running through your [31:02] mind meditate upon God and His word um [31:05] and Soo is actually meant to try to help [31:07] you do this another verse uh that really [31:09] emphasizes the freedom of Walking In [31:11] Truth John 8:31-32 Jesus said if you [31:14] hold to my teaching you are really my [31:16] disciples then you will know the truth [31:18] and the truth will set you free and uh [31:21] and so we tend to think like this is a [31:24] reference only to our Salvation moment [31:26] um certainly would be relevant there but [31:30] I would say I mean the life of a [31:32] disciple is an ongoing life it's not [31:34] just like speaking of conversion it's [31:36] speaking of our ongoing life of [31:38] discipleship where we hold or we some [31:41] translations abide in his teaching think [31:43] of that Branch abiding in the vine John [31:45] 15 and so if you abide by hold to his [31:48] teaching continue in his teaching uh how [31:52] he says you'll know the truth and the [31:54] truth will set you free and so as uh [31:56] Miller I've heard you teach on this [31:58] where you say this is like this word no [32:00] it's a you know it's a word like Adam [32:02] new EVE of course this is you know Greek [32:04] Hebrew but like it's the same idea um of [32:08] of intimacy like an intimate knowing and [32:11] here what it's trying to say is like [32:14] like I think your language Miller was [32:15] like this means being intimately [32:17] acquainted with the truth is that how [32:19] you said [32:21] it yeah do you remember your own [32:23] teaching like [32:25] about yes yeah one of the things I like [32:29] about what what Donna has has spelled [32:31] out here is she is trying to give people [32:34] an experience of Truth so this [32:36] meditative state is supposed to help [32:39] with that like they're meditating on [32:40] trth having an experience with truth [32:43] that actually produces emotion and [32:45] feeling um so to me Joshua 18 would also [32:49] be applied here you know he him don't [32:52] let this book of law depart from your [32:54] mouth but meditate on it day and night [32:57] so this is more than just a a [32:59] resuscitation of a verse of scripture uh [33:02] it's rather like like think of wanting [33:04] to know the love of God well I don't [33:06] just talk about the love of God or cite [33:09] the scripture I meditate and I imagine [33:12] what it must be like for Jesus to carry [33:15] the cross up the hill to the the place [33:18] known as gotha I want to uh meditate on [33:22] seeing the blood and and sweat dripping [33:25] down from his face um I want see the [33:29] exaggerated breath I mean there's a [33:30] reason we make movies so that we can [33:34] feel something more than ju when we see [33:36] it um rather than just having words in [33:39] our [33:40] head absolutely yeah so um so what we're [33:44] seeing here is it's it's encouraging [33:48] Christian meditation focusing on the [33:50] things of God it's uh it's encouraging [33:53] that we repent of our sins that we [33:56] repent of Lies we're believing it's [33:59] encouraging that we believe God's truth [34:02] uh and become intimately acquainted with [34:03] it it's encouraging that we ask God to [34:06] search us and know us deeply uh man [34:09] these are good things Miller uh and and [34:12] it in in my experience with inner [34:14] healing and I'm sure Soo is the same way [34:16] there's just a lot of confession that I [34:19] mean and I say I'm sure I'm pretty [34:21] familiar with Soo but I've not been a [34:23] practitioner of Soo and uh the [34:26] confession I know is is a big part of it [34:28] like these are good things confessing [34:30] repenting believing and being guided [34:33] through that process it it seems kind of [34:36] hard to argue with now Miller I can [34:39] imagine somebody being like well you [34:41] don't see somebody guiding that in the [34:43] in the Bible but you know as you just [34:45] mentioned Jesus kind of guided us [34:47] through the Lord's Prayer that's an okay [34:49] thing to do um well there is guiding I [34:53] mean he says confess your sins to one [34:55] another that you may be healed in [34:59] [Music] [35:00] James the the [35:05] guidance me ask question do you have any [35:08] sins you need to confess when I'm [35:11] praying I think there is a a guiding [35:13] that's taking place it may not be recite [35:15] this particular prayer but outside of [35:18] biblical liturature we have a ton of [35:19] early church practice has prayers that [35:22] they've recorded for for two Millennia [35:24] now the common book of prayer and so I I [35:27] have no problem with the idea of leading [35:29] people through prayers and and finding [35:31] your voice in their prayers and if [35:33] anything I think the Psalms set the [35:35] precedent for that as well like there's [35:37] a reason we study those psalms often [35:39] there are praises and they are prayers [35:40] that weite ourselves yes that's a good [35:43] point we're literally praying their [35:45] prayers and and the church has been [35:47] doing that has been singing the Psalms [35:50] for centuries so um and Jesus did it he [35:53] quoted the Psalms on the cross father [35:56] forgive them that don't know what to do [35:57] and he cries out and says my God my God [36:00] why have you forsaken me you he's [36:02] identifying himself with the psalmist [36:03] who felt abandoned by God yeah um I mean [36:06] there's so many things like that that [36:07] the Lord himself does the Psalms is the [36:09] most quoted book from the new of the Old [36:12] Testament in the New Testament yeah [36:14] absolutely so uh so now let's talk about [36:17] we've talked about some positive things [36:19] about Sozo let's talk about some [36:21] negative at Remnant we want to call [36:23] balls and Strikes and so people want us [36:25] to oh it's bethl you got to you know [36:28] throw stones at them and everything [36:30] everything they do is terrible or you [36:33] know then it's like on the other side [36:34] everything they do is wonderful and it [36:36] seems like there's not a lot of in [36:37] between and we just want to again call [36:40] balls and Strikes repentance of sin [36:43] confession and believing in God's truth [36:45] and helping people do that more we're [36:47] going to say uh that's the win column [36:49] right there uh but some of these other [36:51] ones are concerning to us okay and so [36:54] Miller I'm going to I'm going to start I [36:55] actually talked about this in our remnet [36:56] radio conference [36:58] um I feel concerned by how they talk [37:01] about the relating to distinct persons [37:04] of the Trinity uh father lad yes the [37:07] father ladder as though it's almost like [37:09] a social trinitarianism where there's [37:12] like this over separation of the persons [37:15] of the Trinity almost as if they are [37:16] different people entirely and uh and [37:20] where do you get this that like the way [37:23] I relate to my Earthly father is how I [37:25] relate to my heavenly father the way I [37:27] Rel relate to my siblings is the way [37:29] I'll relate to Jesus and the way I [37:31] relate to my mother is the way I'll [37:32] relate to my holy to the Holy Spirit um [37:35] I I don't see any Scripture pointing to [37:38] that being true first of all second of [37:41] all it seems to create too sharp of a [37:44] distinction between the persons of the [37:46] Trinity like can you imagine a world [37:48] where I mean and this is Central to the [37:51] father ladder but I can't imagine a [37:53] world where I've got a broken relation [37:56] like me and Jesus are the Rocks but me [37:58] and the father are doing okay because my [38:01] brother and I have a good relation or or [38:04] had a bad relationship but my dad and I [38:06] had a good relationship like I I'm just [38:08] trying to imagine that like I I think [38:11] it's I I think my relationship with the [38:15] godhead is a singular relationship I [38:17] don't think I have a if I have three [38:20] different [38:21] relationships this suggests that they [38:25] are um not just persons but almost [38:28] people with their own distinct wills and [38:30] personality because I can have a [38:32] distinct relationship with um Miller and [38:33] I can have a distinct relationship with [38:35] Josh um because you have a different [38:38] will and a different personality but [38:41] historically the way the Trinity has [38:42] been defined is that to be one God the [38:47] persons of the Trinity only have one [38:50] will and uh one personality and even [38:54] when it gets down to the operations we [38:56] talk about it in terms of the um [38:59] Inseparable operations of the Trinity [39:01] Augustine said it like this just as the [39:03] father son and spirit are one so their [39:06] work so their works are one I messed [39:08] that quote up but it's basically like [39:10] you see in creation the father son and [39:12] spirit cooperating in creation you see [39:15] in Redemption father like I think it's [39:17] Hebrews 9:14 that that speaks of uh [39:20] Jesus offering by the eternal spirit the [39:25] the sacrifice of his blood to God the [39:28] father and so you see all three persons [39:30] of the Trinity cooperating in Redemption [39:33] so everything God does he does in Tandem [39:36] and I feel concerned even though I know [39:40] I'm 100% sure that these operators of [39:43] Soo are trinitarian I'm not accusing [39:46] them otherwise what I am saying is that [39:49] functionally it's sounds like it uh [39:54] overly divides the persons of the [39:56] Trinity it makes it sound to me like [39:59] tritheism I know they're not Tri theists [40:02] but it sounds like it [40:04] functionally do you think that's fair [40:06] Miller or do you think I'm yes no no I I [40:10] think it goes too far and I think [40:11] anecdotally it doesn't always play out [40:13] that way and I say this personally one [40:16] of the first areas they wanted to go [40:18] with me was uh was in relationship with [40:22] the father and the reason why seems [40:24] obvious to me uh I was abandoned you [40:27] know my father was out of the picture [40:29] parents divorced at age one dad married [40:31] another woman at age four and adopted [40:34] her six kids as his own meanwhile wasn't [40:36] paying child support to my mother and so [40:39] the abandonment felt real for me it felt [40:41] like like my father had rejected me now [40:45] the interesting thing was when I was 15 [40:47] years old somebody gave me a Bible I [40:50] read it and I found myself really [40:53] enthralled with who Jesus was I became a [40:56] Christian I started going to church on [40:57] Sunday mornings with my friends who went [40:59] to church on Sunday morning and one of [41:01] the greatest pieces of news is when I [41:04] read the Lord's Prayer we're told to [41:06] call him our father um and he says that [41:10] he takes the lonely and he puts them in [41:11] families and the songs uh you know so I [41:15] found myself suddenly saying oh awesome [41:17] I get to experience what having a father [41:20] looks like and then on top of that you [41:23] know he gave me spiritual fathers uh my [41:25] mentor and young life he memorized [41:27] scripture with me the first Christian [41:29] book I read was just like Jesus um by [41:32] Max loo and then he gave me mentors when [41:35] I wanted to learn about the spiritual [41:36] gifts he gave me Jack deer I saw God the [41:39] Father fathering me from day one and so [41:42] anecdotally I never really felt like [41:44] there was this divide between me and God [41:46] the Father um you know I I think if [41:50] anything it was proved just the opposite [41:52] that that now I know what you know [41:55] having a good father looks like right [41:57] because God stepped in yeah now but to [42:00] be fair I would imagine that like um a [42:05] seasoned practitioner of Soo and a [42:08] mature one would probably say hey the [42:11] father ladder is not meant to say like [42:14] an automatic one toone every single time [42:16] you have a bad relationship with your [42:18] dad it translates to a bad relationship [42:20] with the heavenly father we're just [42:21] saying we've observed it as a pattern to [42:23] pay attention to and it might happen [42:25] that way um and and so we want to be [42:28] open to that possibility Miller what [42:30] would you say uh like do you feel more [42:32] comfortable with it if they hold it [42:33] Loosely like that I'm sure you feel more [42:35] comfortable with it but do you feel [42:38] still uncomfortable with it if they hold [42:41] it [42:41] Loosely uh I mean holding it Loosely is [42:44] great I just I don't know if anecdotally [42:47] it's always I I I would wonder the [42:50] probability and how common that is where [42:52] somebody has a hiccup with Jesus because [42:55] of a betrayal of a friend or a brother [42:58] somebody has a hiccup with the holy [43:00] spirit because their mother did [43:01] something wrong um I just I don't know [43:05] if I I make the connection in general um [43:08] I I just think I've been betrayed by by [43:11] friends but I never felt betrayed by [43:13] Jesus if anything I was like Jesus took [43:15] care of me in the midst of betrayal so I [43:17] don't know I just I'm finding the [43:19] connection alone problematic like I just [43:21] don't see how it actually plays out yeah [43:24] I I mean I would say the same for me is [43:26] that my [43:27] uh I've experienced betrayal my [43:30] relationship with Jesus usually gets [43:33] stronger in those yes um and and so yeah [43:37] I'm not sure that it holds up biblically [43:40] there's no precedent for it [43:43] anecdotally it it just seems like a [43:45] stretch and my biggest concern is that [43:49] even though the practitioners are surely [43:52] true trinitarians and I want to grant [43:54] that and not suggest otherwise while the [43:57] same time functionally this flirts with [44:00] tritheism and and makes me uncomfortable [44:03] um and and Miller I think here's maybe [44:06] my question because like how much can we [44:09] really bring in Freudian [44:13] ideas into inner healing right because I [44:17] mean for one psychology develops people [44:21] you know modern psychology doesn't [44:23] always agree with Freud on things uh [44:25] Freud suggested I mean this sounds a [44:27] little Freudian like you know hey if uh [44:30] if you have a bad relationship with a [44:31] parent it's you know affect [44:33] relationships later I mean I I think we [44:35] could say that like our human [44:37] relationships are certainly affected by [44:40] Brokenness and our family of origin [44:42] totally as well as like uh our emotional [44:45] like greatly affected by that but then [44:49] uh it it feels like a a leap where we're [44:52] making this [44:54] Freudian idea into something biblical [44:58] and divine and I don't know am I [45:00] overstating this I don't want to build [45:02] strawman [45:03] here uh I mean there's a lot about [45:06] Freudian psychology that I would say is [45:09] bad and off uh you know idus complex [45:13] case in point um you know so I I [45:17] wouldn't be bringing that in and I can [45:18] see how you would you would make the [45:20] connection with the father ladder and [45:23] Freudian [45:25] psychology um but I I would just I think [45:28] that the concerns we already have to me [45:30] are enough uh the The Four Doors I feel [45:34] a lot better about I my biggest concern [45:37] there with the four-doors is it's not [45:38] very comprehensive it sort of limits the [45:42] uh the problems we have in life when it [45:45] comes to spiritual issues to only four [45:48] things and I would say there are a lot [45:50] more than four things yeah you know yeah [45:54] go ahead yeah no I would agree with you [45:56] well a c [45:58] sexual um hatred and what was the last [46:01] one got to go fear hat bitterness and [46:04] fear I mean those are huge ones huge [46:08] ones because even under hatred [46:09] bitterness that's where your forgiveness [46:11] is going to come out and and probably in [46:14] every practitioner's experience [46:16] forgiving others is kind of the biggest [46:19] work of inner healing and deliverance [46:20] it's probably in my experience uh the [46:23] biggest cause of demons um I I guess [46:27] demonizing somebody and in addition just [46:31] just the biggest cause of problems I [46:32] mean Jesus makes such a huge deal out of [46:35] forgiveness that it's the one sin [46:37] mentioned in the Lord's Prayer you know [46:39] like he did you know father forgive them [46:41] just as we forgive those who trespass [46:43] against us it's like well there are a [46:46] thousand acts of obedience in the Bible [46:48] why did you mention that one of [46:49] forgiveness well it's it's just so [46:52] Central and so I I imagine Miller that [46:55] if I'm going to try to steal man what [46:57] someone from Soo would say is like [46:59] listen we're trying to make this simple [47:02] and reproducible so that it can reach [47:05] lots of people these are the four [47:07] biggest areas uh where we see negative [47:11] influences coming into people's lives [47:14] and uh we're not saying that it's [47:16] limited to that and Soo practitioners [47:18] are welcome to explore other potential [47:20] doors but we also have a uh level two [47:24] and I can't remember what they call [47:25] their level two training after so where [47:27] we explore some of the other avenues but [47:29] we're just trying to make this [47:31] reproducible I can imagine they would [47:33] say something like that I get that yeah [47:35] yeah and and we do that like we we give [47:37] people things to make it accessible so [47:39] that they can grab hold of something [47:41] really quickly and begin to be effective [47:43] immediately um but the other part of it [47:46] that I have a problem with is I think [47:48] they sh stop short of truly setting [47:52] captives free um because while you make [47:56] may be helping people gain truth you are [47:59] stopping short of actually getting rid [48:02] of an evil spirit I don't think you just [48:05] repent away a demon I don't think you [48:07] just renounce away a demon I do think [48:10] those are part of the process of [48:12] removing the rights of a demon to a [48:14] person's life but I think there's a [48:16] third step called expulsion of a demon [48:18] where you command something to go and [48:21] maybe they do that and I'm just not [48:23] seeing it but I don't remember ever [48:24] hearing that and that's been a concern I [48:26] have with most inner healing models I [48:29] don't think you can inner heal a demon I [48:31] think they have to be removed Jesus told [48:35] a deaf Spirit come out of him um another [48:38] occasion he says come out of him and [48:39] never enter him again you see the [48:43] Lord making very clear explicit [48:46] statements and not just the Lord doing [48:47] this but also the apostles uh Paul He [48:50] commands the spirit of divination to [48:52] come out of the woman who had that [48:53] python Spirit uh probably someone from [48:56] the oracle of Deli um one those kind of [49:00] spirits and so expulsion is a necessity [49:03] in scripture why did they stop short of [49:05] that in this and I think um while it's a [49:09] good model and there's a lot of good [49:10] stuff in it that's that piece that [49:13] they're stopping short of is a huge [49:15] piece to me um my experience and [49:18] biblically speaking shows that that that [49:20] is also needed yeah yeah uh absolutely I [49:24] mean the name of the ministry is soo so [49:26] so saved healed delivered is kind of the [49:29] meaning of it so uh yeah it maybe they [49:33] do it more than I've realized but in my [49:35] looking into Soo and in my little [49:38] experience with it um I have not seen it [49:41] emphasized so uh yeah I I would say that [49:44] if that's really true that they that [49:47] they don't expel the demons and that [49:49] would be a big a big deal and you know I [49:52] I think this touches on sort of you see [49:55] in these Ministries Miller a lot of sort [49:58] of overlap of like inner healing and [50:00] Deliverance Ministry these are very [50:03] distinct things inner healing is I have [50:07] a wound in my emotional life in my heart [50:10] somebody betrayed me and it hurt uh I [50:14] have uh PTSD from going into combat or [50:18] whatever like these this is inner [50:21] healing I mean which PTSD it's like the [50:23] mind but it's it's more than the mind [50:25] it's it's just your body is a whole it's [50:28] and your body I mean if you ever read [50:29] the body keeps the score but uh anyway [50:32] but my my point really being that uh [50:35] inner healing is it really is about [50:38] healing wounds inviting the power of the [50:41] Holy Spirit to come in and to mend [50:45] Hearts the Holy Spirit truly does that [50:47] the spirit of the Lord Came Upon Jesus [50:49] to bind up the Brokenhearted and much of [50:52] inner healing prayer is just inviting [50:54] the Holy Spirit to heal heal people and [50:58] it it it when it's done right it's done [51:00] in conjunction with all the other stuff [51:02] you have to do for inner healing like [51:03] you can't just come in and uh I mean [51:06] broken hearts are usually not things [51:08] that heal because of a single prayer or [51:10] prayer session uh you need friends and [51:13] people surrounding you and supporting [51:15] you and those kinds of things um and [51:17] that would be like if a church was to [51:19] practice Soo I think that would be one [51:21] of my uh sticks is I just wouldn't want [51:25] Soo to be used as sort of a replacement [51:28] for all the other means of Grace and uh [51:31] man much of my inner healing and I've [51:34] had some like some of it I had because [51:36] somebody prayed over me and I went [51:37] through a session not Sozo but other [51:39] kind of methods and uh most of it has [51:43] come from just really good [51:45] friendships where like I mean like your [51:49] friendship Miller I mean has been [51:52] incredibly healing for me and 2 [51:54] Corinthians chapter 1 like the Comfort [51:57] somebody has received from God and [51:59] they're suffering when that other person [52:00] suffers the same thing they offer that [52:03] Comfort the comfort of God and so God [52:05] ministers just through us it's not [52:06] necessarily A Prayer session but it's [52:09] just friendship and so much healing [52:11] happens in community okay but I kind of [52:14] got diverted here so you got inner [52:15] healing on one side just the healing of [52:16] the heart I want to make sure we allow [52:18] for other means of Grace uh besides just [52:21] prayer but in addition you have [52:23] deliverance and that's different that is [52:25] the expulsion of an evil spirit [52:27] um they can run together because let's [52:30] say you experience that trauma then you [52:32] hold on to unforgiveness because of a [52:36] betrayal and when you hold on to [52:38] unforgiveness Ephesians 4:26 to 27 you [52:40] open a door to the devil the Devil comes [52:43] into your life you hold on to that [52:45] Grudge for a long time the devil might [52:47] begin to afflict your body he might [52:48] begin to afflict your mind and then you [52:51] you come to somebody it's like well you [52:53] need healing for your wound you also [52:55] need deliverance from an evil spirit you [52:58] need to repent of your sin of [53:00] unforgiveness uh like there's so much [53:02] going on and that's why we tend to mix [53:03] these together and we just want to make [53:06] sure that if there somebody was to be a [53:07] practitioner of Sozo that they don't [53:10] just so focus on one that they ignore [53:11] the other Miller I talked for a while [53:13] what what would you add in [53:15] there no I think I think you're hitting [53:17] on it it's called Soo and the reason [53:20] Donna D Silva got into this is because [53:21] she said she wanted to heal the whole [53:23] person um I just think it doesn't quite [53:27] do that it heals something I think it's [53:29] good I just think it's a tool for a [53:32] small part of who we are as human beings [53:35] there's another thing that heals the [53:37] person nutrition and exercise those [53:39] things are also important I regularly [53:41] exercise today I ran four miles uh I'm [53:44] going to eat a salad and steak and I'm [53:47] going to make sure I get a you know some [53:48] vitamins in um and then there's other [53:51] components like you mentioned fellowship [53:53] with other believers you know walk in [53:55] the light as he is in the light and you [53:57] will have fellowship with one another [53:58] and the blood of the Lord Jesus will [53:59] cleanse you from unrighteousness so [54:02] there is there is that component we're [54:03] not meant to do this on our own um there [54:05] is the Deliverance component which I [54:07] think they stopped short of I'd also say [54:09] that there is this thing called trauma [54:11] in the body and grief that's in the body [54:14] and I've started noticing on a regular [54:16] basis actually when I start praying for [54:18] people and uh asking the Lord to bring [54:21] the grief out of person's body they [54:24] start getting healed I've seen several [54:26] people with back and um hip issues begin [54:30] to tremble and shake as the trauma and [54:33] grief that was stored in that part of [54:34] the body literally comes out of them we [54:36] saw this in Wisconsin with a young woman [54:38] uh who was massively healed and it [54:41] wasn't a demon that did it like it [54:42] wasn't it wasn't a demon coming out of [54:44] her this was just things that have been [54:45] trapped in the body and so I think that [54:49] um I am all for what she is setting out [54:52] to do I think there are other things [54:54] that would be added to it that I would [54:56] encourage her to add to it and I know [54:58] that that she does have other resources [55:00] on her website where she has something [55:02] called shabar which has to do with [55:04] healing uh multiple personalities which [55:06] I think is amazing the fact that she has [55:08] found a way to help people reintegrate [55:10] because that's another thing is you [55:11] can't cast out a person's personality uh [55:15] not everything that presents itself as [55:17] another entity is an evil spirit there [55:20] are other personalities and that is a [55:22] proven thing where the mind has split [55:24] and so there's I don't know if if even [55:28] if she would even agree disagree with [55:29] some of our critiques and she may have [55:31] added things as they've gone by but when [55:33] I look at the soo uh guide book uh [55:36] handbook that they have and the video [55:38] trainings these things are not in there [55:40] yeah so I don't really think it's [55:41] addressing the whole person I think it's [55:43] addressing a a good portion and and it's [55:45] really there are some good Tools in [55:47] there despite the strong disagreements I [55:50] have with the father ladder U but the [55:52] open doors I think that's really good [55:54] yeah uh okay Miller I want to I'm going [55:57] to read a quote to you and I want to ask [55:59] what you think of it okay so the quote [56:01] is this this is from uh this is from the [56:03] book soo soo saved healed delivered a [56:06] journey into Freedom with the father Son [56:07] and Holy Spirit so that's the name of [56:08] the book um as Soo ministers it says our [56:12] job is never to judge how a person [56:14] thinks sees or feels God our job is to [56:18] take whatever information the client [56:19] gives us and discover the presence of [56:21] lies that hinder the development of a [56:23] strong connection with the Lord if here [56:26] or she is willing to renounce lies uh [56:29] ties with any lies strongholds and [56:31] destructive patterns ministers can work [56:33] through forgiveness renunciation and [56:35] other Sozo tools to remove each negative [56:38] presence so what do you think of [56:42] that [56:46] um again the replacing a lie with the [56:49] truth is very important but sometimes [56:54] the lies you believe can't be replaced [56:56] with truth until you deal with the evil [56:59] spirit um and I'll I'll give you a case [57:01] in point um praying with a man he's had [57:05] anger issues I started talking with him [57:07] about those anger issues and when they [57:08] started said second grade I said what [57:11] happened he said some kid called me [57:13] stupid I says so you just used anger and [57:16] uh to intimidate him and got and made [57:17] sure that nobody ever called you that [57:19] again after you showed that force and [57:21] display of anger he goes it's exactly [57:23] what I did I said well uh that was a key [57:27] he told me something else in that very [57:30] breath I said when was the first time [57:31] you felt really stupid because obviously [57:33] that is something that that bothers you [57:35] deeply he said oh that was first grade [57:37] teacher had to pull me out of class [57:38] because well I'm just dumb I've always [57:40] been [57:41] dumb and so I said all right I know what [57:43] we're going to pray for so I have him [57:46] repent from the lie that he believed [57:48] that he was dumb I had him State a [57:51] confession of the truth and that he was [57:53] committed to believing the truth that [57:55] God didn't make a mistake when he made [57:57] him that in fact he was [57:59] intelligent um and then I had him reject [58:03] a dumb spirit and then I commanded a [58:06] dumb Spirit to come out of him and his [58:08] head nearly exploded as that thing [58:11] left and uh what does that mean his head [58:14] nearly [58:16] exploded I mean like his his facial [58:19] expression was [58:20] like like his head just was kind of pop [58:23] off kind of thing like his face showed [58:25] the the force of something in his head [58:27] and it began to hurt as this thing left [58:30] right and and by the way this guy was [58:32] not a charismatic right no no no no he [58:35] had never he had never experienced he's [58:37] never experienced the gifts of the [58:38] Spirit he had never experienced [58:39] Deliverance uh this was all brand new [58:41] for him yeah okay love that so so anyway [58:45] where you were going with the [58:47] story well my my point is I I also ended [58:50] up casting a spirit of rage and anger [58:52] out of him and so both of those things [58:55] had to leave now the impact that had on [58:58] him was all of the selft talk that he [59:02] was accustomed to having was just [59:03] suddenly gone and the displays of anger [59:07] disproportionate amounts of anger and [59:09] rage for certain disappointments in life [59:12] also stopped yeah so as much as the lies [59:16] were there and Truth needed to be [59:18] apprehended there was also a spirit that [59:20] needed to be removed for the truth to [59:23] feel true as well okay well so you went [59:26] in a totally different angle than I [59:28] thought you would but uh I should have [59:31] known you you were just going to tell a [59:33] demon story [59:36] um um so the statement I was thinking [59:39] you would key it on was the first one as [59:41] Soo ministers our job is never to judge [59:44] how a person thinks sees or feels God [59:47] okay so in other words like I just you [59:50] just want to ident help them through [59:52] question asking identify the LIE they're [59:54] believing um so taking at face value [59:59] this could be dangerous like if somebody [60:02] says uh I picture God as a leprechaun [60:07] and you know he uh he's really angry all [60:11] the time and wants to steal me Lucky [60:14] Charms I mean at some point you probably [60:17] need to say something right but um okay [60:21] so that's one side um but here's the [60:24] other side because listen we want to [60:26] steal man people um just having been a [60:30] pastor for a long time when um I I found [60:35] that when somebody is extremely [60:37] vulnerable the worst thing that you can [60:40] do is Swoop in with your magical advice [60:44] uh I remember when when Jack was Jack [60:46] deer was going through a particular [60:48] therapy session with his his wife was um [60:52] working through alcoholism I mean it was [60:55] big messy deal he talks about it in his [60:57] Memoir but um anyway he goes to the sort [61:01] of family session and people would share [61:05] these vulnerable things and then someone [61:06] would swoop in with advice and the and [61:09] the therapist would come and say up up [61:11] up no shoting on each other don't Sho on [61:14] them and of course it sounds like the [61:16] cuss word but um the it's their way of [61:19] saying like don't swoop in with the [61:21] device because this is their vulnerable [61:23] moment and so like I can see like if I [61:26] want to give uh Donna the benefit of the [61:28] doubt here it's it's kind of like okay [61:32] there is a subsequent time in place for [61:34] correcting their view of God but don't [61:37] let it be like immediately in that [61:39] moment kind of let this run its course [61:41] until you get to the lie that they're [61:43] believing and then you can kind of work [61:45] your way back to that and a you know [61:47] maybe it's saying that on the other hand [61:50] at face value if what she really means [61:54] is you can actually just not correct the [61:57] person's false view of God what are we [61:59] doing as Christians like we really need [62:02] to address people's false view of God [62:04] that that's part of how we tear down [62:06] demonic strongholds so uh anyway Miller [62:10] when you look at that tension between me [62:12] trying to steal man on one side um like [62:16] hey you don't want to swoop in which is [62:17] the magical advice and on the other side [62:20] like uh man this could potentially be [62:22] dangerous how do you read this [62:27] uh I mean I agree with exactly what you [62:29] said I I totally think that there is a [62:31] place to ask questions that lead people [62:35] into uh truth rather than trying to [62:37] force it down their throat and come off [62:39] in the oneup position that was the other [62:41] thing Jack always said was um when you [62:43] give unasked for advice you're [62:45] immediately putting yourself in the [62:47] position of expert and them beneath you [62:50] and that ends up making people feel very [62:51] small and will actually cause them to [62:53] shut down um and withdraw [62:56] and so I understand why they would say [62:59] that obviously there are times where [63:00] you're like o that's not good but I do [63:03] think I do think they try to ground [63:04] everything in scripture so like if you [63:06] have some sort of experience or you feel [63:07] like God has said something to you [63:09] they're going to go okay what do the [63:10] scriptures have to say about that um and [63:13] and they'll try to point you in that [63:14] direction so yeah I would I don't know I [63:17] would imagine that statement would [63:19] probably [63:21] uh it wouldn't be just a c blanch we [63:24] don't we only ask questions [63:27] right so what you're trying to say [63:29] Miller is that if somebody said God is a [63:32] leprechaun you wouldn't correct [63:34] them I'm saying I would correct them and [63:37] I think they would [63:38] too yeah uh actually I think Miller you [63:41] would you would cast out like a [63:42] leprechaun Spirit probably that's [63:45] probably [63:46] yeah have I've never had one of those [63:48] have you no never never had one of those [63:51] uh not yet okay there's always tomorrow [63:53] Michael [63:55] well that's probably a good time to uh [63:57] complete this episode so guys uh thank [64:00] you so much for joining us for this [64:01] episode of Remnant radio talking uh all [64:04] things gifts of the Holy Spirit and uh [64:06] in this this case Soo inner healing and [64:09] Deliverance Ministry let us know what [64:10] you think of it in the comments uh any [64:13] any of your thoughts there share like [64:15] and uh and help us spread the message of [64:18] what we're trying to do here at Remnant [64:19] radio and also uh make sure you hit the [64:21] link in the description for that [64:22] newsletter that's how you stay in touch [64:23] with the things that we're doing uh lots [64:26] of great episodes coming out every week [64:27] every Monday and Wednesday from 400 to [64:29] 5:00 pm uh you guys have a great week [64:33] and we'll see you next time