The Bethel Situation Just Got Much Worse - CourtneyR.dev's 2nd Brain

The Bethel Situation Just Got Much Worse... 🔗 **Source:** [The Bethel Situation Just Got Much Worse...](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZAGchFYFuU&t=1957s) > [!note]+ Document Notes > tags: [bethel-church, spiritual-abuse, sexual-misconduct] > author: Mike Signorelli > source: YouTube > reference: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZAGchFYFuU] > date created: 2024-12-22 07:33 > > # 🏷️ Title: The Bethel Situation Just Got Much Worse... >  ## 🧰 Action Inbox - [H1] Review third-party investigation protocols — church accountability #governance - [H2] Examine power dynamics in ministry relationships — clergy-congregant boundaries #theology - [H3] Analyze culture of honor theology implications — victim vs leader prioritization #ethics ## 🧭 Table of Contents - [📝 Summary](#-summary) - [📖 Main Content](#-main-content) - [🗒️ Notes](#️-notes) - [📚 References](#-references) - [🗣️ Paraphrase](#️-paraphrase) - [📰 Newsletter](#-newsletter) - [✅ Action Items](#-action-items) - [🧪 Hypotheses](#-hypotheses) - [📊 Methodology](#-methodology) - [❓ Questions](#-questions) - [🔮 Future Research](#-future-research) - [💡 Implications](#-implications) - [🧠 Learning Styles Assessment](#-learning-styles-assessment) - [📊 Accessibility Assessment](#-accessibility-assessment) - [🌍 DEIB Assessment](#-deib-assessment) - [✅ Logical Validity](#-logical-validity) - [🛡️ DARVO Analysis](#-darvo-analysis) - [🎯 Conclusion](#-conclusion) ### 🔗 References - [Wake Up and Win Podcast](URL) - [Faith Reframed Channel](URL) ## 📝 Summary - Bethel Church issued two statements regarding Ben Armstrong sexual misconduct allegations from 2008-2009 - Victims Sarah and Roseanne shared detailed accounts revealing grooming behavior and clergy sexual abuse - Armstrong was placed on administrative leave and Bethel initiated third-party investigation - Pattern of "culture of honor" theology appears to prioritize leader restoration over victim protection - Previous pattern includes incidents in late 1990s while working for Bill Johnson's brother ## 📖 Main Content Bethel Church faces mounting sexual misconduct allegations against senior leader Ben Armstrong, prompting administrative leave and third-party investigation. Two victims, Sarah and Roseanne, provided detailed accounts on the Wake Up and Win podcast describing grooming behaviors and inappropriate sexual contact that occurred while Armstrong was in positions of authority over young interns. The allegations reveal a concerning pattern spanning multiple decades. Armstrong previously committed similar acts while working for Bill Johnson's brother in the late 1990s, leading to his disqualification from ministry. Despite this history, Bethel hired him for the School of Ministry, giving him authority over young people again. Bethel's "culture of honor" theology, as promoted in books like "Unpunishable" by Daniel Silk, appears to prioritize leader restoration over victim protection. A resurfaced video shows Armstrong and church leadership framing the situation as a consensual affair, while victim Sarah describes classic grooming behaviors including inappropriate touching, sharing hotel rooms, and exploitation of power dynamics. ## 🗒️ Notes #### ⏱️ [00:00](https://youtu.be/aZAGchFYFuU?t=0) — [H1] Bethel releases two statements about Ben Armstrong - Key idea: Church acknowledges previous moral failure and launches investigation - Evidence: "Earlier that day at 11:10 Pacific time, we released a statement based on the information that we were aware of" #### ⏱️ [03:45](https://youtu.be/aZAGchFYFuU?t=225) — [H2] Pattern of misconduct spans multiple decades - Key idea: Armstrong had similar incidents in late 1990s before Bethel employment - Evidence: "Ben Armstrong did this when he went and worked for Bill Johnson's brother in Reading, California" #### ⏱️ [08:12](https://youtu.be/aZAGchFYFuU?t=492) — [H1] Sarah's account reveals grooming behaviors - Key idea: Victim describes unwelcome physical contact and boundary violations - Evidence: "Ben comes up behind me and hugs me unwelcomed and unexpectedly from behind" #### ⏱️ [12:30](https://youtu.be/aZAGchFYFuU?t=750) — [H2] Power dynamics create inability to consent - Key idea: Clergy positions inherently create power imbalances preventing true consent - Evidence: "The inherent authority of the clergy makes true consent nearly impossible" #### ⏱️ [15:45](https://youtu.be/aZAGchFYFuU?t=945) — [H1] Shared hotel room incident escalates - Key idea: Armstrong arranged shared accommodations and committed sexual assault - Evidence: "We're sharing a room, him and I, Ben and I... he comes back in from the bathroom and starts touching me inappropriately" #### ⏱️ [18:20](https://youtu.be/aZAGchFYFuU?t=1100) — [H2] Victim experiences freeze response - Key idea: Trauma responses prevent victims from resisting or reporting - Evidence: "I remember completely freezing and not knowing what to do... my responses are freeze and fawn" #### ⏱️ [22:15](https://youtu.be/aZAGchFYFuU?t=1335) — [H1] Culture of honor theology enables cover-ups - Key idea: Church doctrine prioritizes leader restoration over justice for victims - Evidence: "We referred to it over and over as the culture of honor" #### ⏱️ [25:40](https://youtu.be/aZAGchFYFuU?t=1540) — [H2] Armstrong framed as hero for staying - Key idea: Leadership praised perpetrator while minimizing victim experience - Evidence: "Most people run away... You're my heroes" #### ⏱️ [28:10](https://youtu.be/aZAGchFYFuU?t=1690) — [H1] Victim received minimal support - Key idea: Church failed to provide adequate care for sexual assault survivor - Evidence: "I don't recall them really helping me at all... they wanted me to disappear" #### ⏱️ [30:45](https://youtu.be/aZAGchFYFuU?t=1845) — [H2] Administrative leave and investigation announced - Key idea: Bethel takes corrective action after public pressure - Evidence: "We've placed Ben Armstrong on administrative leave... independent third-party investigation takes place" #### ⏱️ [35:20](https://youtu.be/aZAGchFYFuU?t=2120) — [H1] Multiple victims likely exist - Key idea: Public cases may represent larger pattern of misconduct - Evidence: "There are apparently people that are going to folks... and are sharing these stories" #### ⏱️ [38:55](https://youtu.be/aZAGchFYFuU?t=2335) — [H2] Moral relativism enables abuse - Key idea: Denying objective evil prevents accountability for harmful actions - Evidence: Discussion of Dr. John DeMartini's claims about victims attracting abuse ## 📚 References - [Wake Up and Win Podcast - Sarah Interview](URL) - [Wake Up and Win Podcast - Roseanne Interview](URL) - [Faith Reframed Channel - Jesse Westwood](URL) - [Culture of Honor by Danny Silk](URL) - [Unpunishable by Danny Silk](URL) ## 🗣️ Paraphrase - Bethel Church leader Ben Armstrong faces serious sexual misconduct allegations from multiple decades requiring investigation - Victims describe systematic grooming behaviors and power abuse that church leadership initially minimized as consensual affairs - Church's "culture of honor" theology appears to structurally protect leaders while marginalizing victims seeking justice ## 📰 Newsletter **Bethel Church Faces Reckoning Over Sexual Misconduct Allegations** The charismatic megachurch has placed senior leader Ben Armstrong on administrative leave following detailed victim testimonies revealing decades-long patterns of sexual abuse and institutional cover-up. Two brave survivors shared their stories publicly, describing classic grooming behaviors and exploitation of power dynamics. Their accounts challenge the church's previous framing of these incidents as consensual affairs. This crisis highlights critical questions about accountability structures in religious organizations and the theological frameworks that may inadvertently protect perpetrators while silencing victims. **Key Takeaways:** - Power dynamics in ministry relationships require clear boundaries and oversight - Victim-centered responses prioritize healing and justice over institutional reputation - Third-party investigations provide necessary independence for credible accountability **Resources:** - [GRACE (Godly Response to Abuse in Christian Environment)](https://netgrace.org/) - [Into Account - Church Abuse Survivors Network](https://intoaccount.org/) ## ✅ Action Items #### DevRel - Developer advocacy: Create resources on ethical leadership in tech communities - Education: Develop workshops on power dynamics and consent in professional relationships - Community management: Establish clear reporting mechanisms and response protocols #### OSPO - Policy & Governance: Review codes of conduct for power abuse prevention - Community Engagement: Partner with organizations addressing workplace harassment #### Community - Maintainers: Implement accountability structures and transparent governance - Contributors: Establish mentorship guidelines protecting vulnerable participants - Ecosystem: Share best practices for handling misconduct allegations #### WordPress - Community: Review WordCamp speaker vetting and incident response procedures - Training: Develop content on ethical leadership and community safety - Documentation: Create guidelines for handling abuse reports in open source #### The WPCC - Programs: Ensure fellowship programs include ethics training and accountability - Projects: Develop governance frameworks preventing power abuse - Funding: Require grantees to maintain ethical standards and reporting mechanisms #### FAIR - Policies: Establish transparent misconduct reporting and investigation procedures - Governance artifacts: Include abuse prevention in organizational charters ## 🧪 Hypotheses - Religious authority structures without external accountability enable abuse patterns - "Culture of honor" theology systematically protects leaders over victims - Public pressure through alternative media forces institutional accountability - Pattern recognition across multiple incidents reveals systematic failures ### 📊 Methodology - Comparative analysis of church discipline procedures across denominations - Longitudinal study of abuse reporting and institutional responses - Survey research on power dynamics in religious leadership relationships ### ❓ Questions - How can religious organizations balance grace and justice in misconduct cases? - What structural changes prevent institutional protection of perpetrators? - How do theological frameworks influence abuse reporting and response? ### 🔮 Future Research - Effectiveness of third-party investigations in religious contexts - Long-term impacts of "culture of honor" theology on abuse prevention - Comparative study of accountability mechanisms across faith traditions ### 💡 Implications - Practice: Religious leaders need training on power dynamics and appropriate boundaries - Policy: Churches require independent oversight mechanisms for misconduct allegations - Security: Vulnerable populations need protection from institutional power abuse - Education: Seminary curricula should include ethics and accountability frameworks - Funding: Donors may reconsider support for organizations with inadequate safeguards ### 🧠 Learning Styles Assessment Reading level estimate: 10th grade #### 👀 Visual learners - Present: Video testimonies, organizational charts showing power structures - Improve: Timeline graphics, infographics on warning signs of abuse #### 🔊 Aural learners - Present: Podcast format, victim testimonies, recorded statements - Improve: Expert commentary audio, survivor story summaries #### 🗣️ Verbal learners - Present: Detailed victim accounts, theological terminology definitions - Improve: Analogies comparing power dynamics to workplace relationships #### 🧩 Kinesthetic learners - Present: Step-by-step investigation timeline, action items for reform - Improve: Interactive checklists for identifying red flags, role-playing scenarios #### 🧠 Logical learners - Present: Pattern analysis across multiple cases, cause-and-effect relationships - Improve: Decision trees for reporting procedures, statistical analysis of outcomes #### 🧑‍🤝‍🧑 Social learners - Present: Community discussion, support group dynamics - Improve: Facilitated discussion guides, peer support resources #### 🧘‍♀️ Solitary learners - Present: Personal reflection prompts, individual victim accounts - Improve: Journaling exercises for processing, self-assessment tools #### 🌿 Naturalistic learners - Present: Systemic analysis of organizational ecosystems - Improve: Metaphors comparing healthy vs. toxic institutional cultures ### 📊 Accessibility Assessment #### Screen reader semantics - Present: Clear heading structure, descriptive video content - Improve: Detailed alt text for graphics, transcript availability #### Keyboard navigation - Present: Standard video controls, logical tab order - Improve: Skip links for lengthy testimonies, keyboard shortcuts #### Contrast and readability - Present: High contrast video player, readable font sizes - Improve: Customizable contrast options, font size controls #### Text resizing and reflow - Present: Responsive video embed, scalable text - Improve: Optimized layout at 200% zoom, preserved functionality #### Media and captions - Present: Video with audio content - Improve: Closed captions for all video content, transcript downloads #### Forms and interactions - Present: Basic video interaction controls - Improve: Accessible reporting forms, clear error messaging ### 🌍 DEIB Assessment #### Cultural breadth - Present: American evangelical context primarily - Improve: Global perspectives on religious accountability, cross-cultural examples #### Inclusive language - Present: Victim-centered terminology, trauma-informed language - Improve: Avoid denominational jargon, provide context for religious terms #### Neurodiversity support - Present: Structured presentation, clear headings - Improve: Content warnings for trauma material, digestible segments #### Representation - Present: Multiple victim voices, diverse survivor experiences - Improve: Include male survivors, various religious backgrounds #### Psychological safety - Present: Respectful treatment of survivors, trigger warnings - Improve: Resources for trauma support, crisis intervention contacts ### ✅ Logical Validity #### Strong reasoning - Inductive strength: Pattern recognition across multiple decades and victims supports systematic abuse claims - Causal reasoning: Power dynamics and institutional protection create conditions enabling continued abuse - Analogical strength: Parallels to other institutional abuse cases provide context #### Fallacies - Ad hominem: Some attacks on church leadership character rather than addressing systemic issues - False dilemma: Framing as either supporting victims or defending faith, rather than both possible #### Tone of voice - Overall tone: Serious and analytical with appropriate gravity for sensitive subject matter ### 🛡️ DARVO Analysis - Deny: Initial church statements minimized allegations as consensual affairs - Attack: Limited direct attacks on accusers, more subtle victim-blaming - Reverse victim/offender: Armstrong portrayed as hero for staying, victims characterized as choosing different path - Emotional cues: Language emphasizing leader restoration over victim justice ## 🎯 Conclusion The Bethel Church case illustrates how theological frameworks can either enable or prevent institutional abuse. The "culture of honor" emphasis on leader restoration appears to have systematically marginalized victims while protecting perpetrators. Third-party investigation and administrative leave represent positive steps, but deeper cultural and theological reforms may be necessary to prevent future abuse and properly care for survivors. ## 🧱 Refactor Appendix ### 📚 Literature Split Pad ### [L1] Power dynamics prevent true consent in clergy relationships > [!quote] The Bethel Situation Just Got Much Worse by Mike Signorelli via YouTube. Published 2024. Accessed 2024-12-22. > "The inherent authority of the clergy makes true consent nearly impossible as the victim may feel pressured, obligated, or fearful." Core principle for understanding clergy sexual abuse dynamics and institutional responses. [view highlight](https://youtu.be/aZAGchFYFuU?t=750#L1) #theology #ethics ID:rw_001 ### [L2] Culture of honor theology prioritizes leader restoration > [!quote] The Bethel Situation Just Got Much Worse > "We referred to it over and over as the culture of honor... prioritizing leaders and people who are gifted over folks who are just everyday normal folks." Systematic theological framework that may enable institutional protection of abusers. [view highlight](https://youtu.be/aZAGchFYFuU?t=1335#L2) #theology #abuse ID:rw_002 ### 🔖 Atomic Split Pad (Zettel Candidates) #### [Z1] Trauma responses prevent victim resistance - Freeze and fawn responses common in power abuse situations - Timestamp: 18:20 victim testimony - Links: --- ## Full Transcript [00:00] The Bethl situation just got worse. They [00:03] released two statements this weekend. [00:05] Two different uh victims from about 15 [00:09] years ago came out and they even said [00:12] one of the statements at the service [00:14] Sunday and are launching another third [00:17] party investigation or perhaps this is [00:18] the first official third party [00:20] investigation to this whole situation. [00:22] Okay, so I got to send a big shout out [00:24] to the Wake Up and Win podcast. They [00:26] actually sat down with both of these [00:29] folks who uh Bethl released the [00:32] statements about and talked to both of [00:35] them. The most alarming by far, which [00:36] we're going to look at here in a second, [00:38] is the conversation with Sarah. Uh and [00:41] this is publicly confirmed regarding Ben [00:44] Armstrong. And I'm going try to explain [00:45] this to you guys as best as I can. But [00:47] then there's also this one with a [00:50] different young lady. So, this first [00:52] video came out in September 4th, and [00:55] this is a lady named Roseanne. She was [00:58] under Ben Armstrong's leadership, and it [01:00] was alleged that there were some [01:02] grooming activities that happened here. [01:04] And then, uh, this over the weekend, [01:06] another video came out with the actual [01:08] woman named Sarah, who Beth was openly [01:11] acknowledged had what they framed as an [01:14] affair with Ben Armstrong. Okay, so this [01:16] is the statement that again, two [01:18] statements over the weekend. I'm going [01:19] to read you guys the first and then I'll [01:20] we'll look at the one from Sunday [01:22] morning and I'll try to kind of explain [01:24] where and how all of this has happened. [01:26] Okay, so this is from Bethl uh first [01:29] update. It says in early February 2026, [01:31] we were made aware of an accusation from [01:34] 2008 2009 involving Ben Armstrong and a [01:37] former BSSM student. This would have [01:39] taken place prior to a known failure in [01:42] 2009 for which Ben publicly uh repented [01:47] was removed from ministry and walked [01:49] through a multi-year healing restoration [01:51] process to process board's fruit of [01:54] repentance which is still evident today. [01:56] The sad part about this is uh they did [01:59] content about it. There was a book [02:01] written about it called unpunishable. [02:02] This ties into their culture of honor [02:04] stuff. And man, if this was something [02:07] that actually caused Ben to not repeat [02:12] this offense cuz he had done it in the [02:13] '9s, uh, and then again in 2008, 2009, [02:18] and hasn't happened since. Um, but it [02:21] was just kind of covered up and [02:22] minimized. How tragic is it to have all [02:25] this stuff dug up and now be put on [02:27] administrative leave, uh, with with this [02:30] all coming out recently, right? That [02:32] again this points to the deeper culture [02:35] of what seems to be cover up at the very [02:38] le least just being kind of oblivious to [02:41] grooming to clergy SA to all these [02:45] different things that contributed to [02:47] everything that's now coming out from [02:48] Bethl. Um currently Ben and Heather's [02:50] connection and family is very strong as [02:52] is their connection uh with us and trust [02:54] with us. We have deeply valued their [02:55] ministry with us. We have no reports or [02:57] accusations of being of Ben being [02:59] inappropriate with anyone else since the [03:01] moral failure 16 years ago. Regardless, [03:03] we take uh allegations and concerns [03:06] reported to us seriously. This is being [03:09] addressed with fresh eyes as our [03:10] leadership team listens to this [03:12] additional account and revisits our [03:13] previous process. And by the way, uh, if [03:16] it's Sarah, if it's Roseanne, I do hope [03:20] that because I do believe there's good [03:21] people over at Bethl, and I do hope that [03:24] they're engaging with this third party [03:26] investigation that Bethl is setting [03:27] forth. Um, because I do think this stuff [03:29] is important to to to help them reflect [03:31] on how they seemingly fumbled this [03:33] situation. We are taking time to [03:35] reflect, uh, seek counsel, and learn how [03:38] we can more fully walk in truth, [03:40] accountability, compassion, restoration. [03:42] We are reviewing this with a more [03:45] informed understanding of appropriate [03:47] interactions and relationships between [03:48] leaders and congregants and the power [03:50] dynamics and resulting responsibilities [03:52] that may factor in these interactions. [03:54] That's the key there. The power [03:56] dynamics. Why is that important? Well, [03:58] when this happened, I don't know if the [04:00] idea of clergy [04:02] was something that was even prevalent. [04:04] Like this is language I've heard [04:05] recently, but the the the element here [04:08] is truth that there's a power dynamic [04:10] between someone in a position of [04:11] leadership um and someone that's a [04:13] congregant or an intern or in this [04:16] second situation that we're talking [04:17] about with Sarah was living with them. [04:18] There's a massive power disparity. And [04:21] so uh this is probably to Bethl's [04:25] ignorance and most people's ignorance [04:26] not something that was often talked [04:27] about in 2008 2009. uh but now as people [04:31] became more trauma informed and they [04:33] understand how this sorts of stuff works [04:34] especially with vulnerable women that it [04:36] is something that is not just an affair [04:39] the way it was framed. Okay. Uh we are [04:42] also reviewing the process and pastoral [04:43] care to ensure our response to victims [04:46] reflect compassion, integrity and [04:48] support. Our priority is to ensure a [04:50] safe respectful power and uh supportive [04:53] environment for everyone. We are [04:55] committed to thoroughess and integrity [04:57] as this new way forward continues. So [05:00] that's the first statement that was put [05:01] out over the weekend. Again, that's in [05:02] regards to the conversation that [05:04] happened several weeks ago. So, we're [05:06] going to look at some of this [05:07] conversation with Sarah. Uh Bethl then [05:10] made a second statement and I believe [05:13] this second statement is what they read [05:16] from the Sunday morning platform. Uh Ben [05:19] Farley read this statement uh [05:21] immediately after giving and and again [05:24] the the bizarre thing in all this is [05:26] that Ben Armstrong is the one who gave [05:29] the offering time when Be Bethl issued [05:33] their apology. So it's just interesting [05:35] that they didn't even really read the [05:36] room in some of the stuff that been [05:38] rumbling about Ben Armstrong. And again [05:41] the tragic part is like man if this dude [05:43] hasn't done anything since the cover up [05:45] is what makes all of this worse. Okay. [05:46] So, this is the statement put out uh by [05:49] Bethl from their service yesterday. [05:51] >> It's good to see you. And as the [05:52] offering is going around and then uh [05:54] just before Richie comes up to preach [05:55] and speak, got an important update for [05:57] you and I need to I need to be really [05:59] clear. So, I'm going to read it to you. [06:01] And I realize it's about a situation [06:02] that some of you may be aware of or not [06:04] be aware of. So, I'm going to read this [06:06] to you. On February 13, 2026, we became [06:09] aware of a video containing serious [06:10] allegations of clergy pertaining to Ben [06:14] Armstrong [06:15] about the events that took place in [06:17] 2009. [06:19] Earlier that day at 11:10 Pacific time, [06:21] we released a statement based on the [06:22] information that we were aware of at the [06:24] time and our understanding of Ben's [06:26] lived repentance since that time. [06:29] However, in light of these pre new and [06:31] previously unknown allegations, we've [06:33] placed Ben Armstrong on administrative [06:35] leave, and he'll not be ministering [06:36] while an independent third-party [06:38] investigation takes place. [06:40] >> This step forward is not a verdict, but [06:43] a necessary measure intended to reflect [06:46] the care and sobriety with which we [06:48] approach matters uh of this nature and [06:50] our desire to operate with transparency [06:52] and truth. We are currently reaching out [06:55] to those who've been brought who've [06:56] brought these allegations to light and [06:57] we are actively engaging outside counsel [06:59] and independent experts to ensure [07:01] thorough impartial and traumainformed [07:03] processes. We are committed to health [07:06] and accountability as we pursue [07:08] spiritual, physical, and emotional [07:09] safety across our entire organization. I [07:12] recognize that an update like that can [07:14] stir emotions and again I want to be [07:15] available today. The senior leadership [07:16] team will be in the room today if you'd [07:18] like to pray with us or speak with us or [07:20] need pastoral support and uh after the [07:22] service. But we'll have ongoing [07:23] communication about this. Our very own [07:25] Richie Gordon is coming now to preach. [07:27] >> That's a statement. And I watched some [07:28] of Richie Gordon's talk, by the way, and [07:30] he he acknowledged that, you know, hey, [07:33] Beth was in a storm and this is not to [07:34] mitigate victims and folks who have [07:36] experienced this sort of stuff. So I [07:38] from what I've heard of his Storman, I [07:39] probably checked about 15 minutes of it. [07:41] I I've actually really enjoyed Richard [07:42] Gordon and it seems like he's hopefully [07:44] one of the younger guys on the senior [07:47] leadership team that's kind of moving [07:48] towards some of this reform that I hope [07:51] is happening. Okay, so this is this is [07:54] this is heavy stuff. So I'm glad they [07:56] made the statement. They're taking steps [07:57] in the right direction, putting Ben [07:59] Armstrong on on administrative leave. Uh [08:02] they are uh hiring a third party [08:05] investigation which I you know if those [08:07] you guys have been keeping up with me [08:09] I've been telling Chris via Instagram [08:12] Chris Valatin who does read my DMs and I [08:14] don't know if he's reading it or someone [08:15] else is reading it but I think it's him [08:16] cuz I you know he probably doesn't know [08:19] that he could see that I could read his [08:20] DMs because he's an older gentleman and [08:22] I've been telling them from the [08:24] beginning like hey just do a third party [08:25] investigation so that someone else can [08:28] step in and look at what's been going on [08:30] because this is not these aren't just [08:35] single situations. [08:38] They're part of what seems to be a [08:40] bigger cultural issue, right? And I'm [08:43] going to I'm going to do my best to [08:45] demonstrate that to you guys here in a [08:47] second. Uh because there's a kind of a [08:49] smoking gun in this uh video that [08:51] started resurfacing [08:53] and it was it was the unpunishable [08:56] conversation that Daniel Silk had. And [08:58] Daniel Sils also released a couple [09:00] statements. some of them kind of [09:01] seemingly minimizing them, some of them [09:03] not. And he's kind of known as this guy [09:05] that goes around and uh helps other PE [09:07] churches clean up their mess as like a [09:09] consultant of sorts. I'm not quite sure [09:10] exactly what he's doing, but that but [09:12] that that is something that he's spoken [09:14] out about with regards to Culture of [09:16] Honor and Punishable, which by all [09:18] measurable count seems to what have [09:20] enabled some of this sort of stuff. So, [09:22] this is the clip that I think uh that it [09:24] got resurfaced and started doing it [09:25] rounds and started getting passed around [09:27] that I think really frustrated a lot of [09:28] people. And this has been Armstrong [09:30] talking about the situation with Sarah [09:33] that from his vantage point and from the [09:35] painting of this seems like it was just [09:37] a consensual affair. Well, you know, [09:40] with Sarah now coming out and going on [09:42] the Wake Up and Win podcast, it seems [09:44] like it's very different than what is [09:46] being portrayed. And this is a bit of [09:48] her retelling all of the weird grooming [09:51] stuff that happened in the situation. [09:54] Um, there's a moment where she talks [09:56] about them being blood brothers and [09:58] taking a blood oath, which is just [10:00] weird. Uh, you guys should, if you're [10:02] interested, really go watch this full [10:03] conversation. There's also another [10:05] moment where there's uh grooming [10:07] happening, forced touch. But then I'll [10:09] play you guys the parts that I think are [10:11] like anybody who is [10:14] sensible and sees a man who's married in [10:18] his 30s with an intern between the ages [10:21] of 21 and 22 living with him and doing [10:24] this sort of behavior that's described [10:25] here. Um this is not just seemingly and [10:28] allegedly this does not seem like just [10:30] in a uh a consensual uh affair in in in [10:34] an adultery situation. Okay. So this is [10:36] her kind of retelling the first instant. [10:38] They would also they there was also in [10:39] where they like slept on the trampoline [10:41] together and being in close proximity [10:44] and sleeping together was very common [10:45] and not not sleeping together but [10:47] sleeping near each other seems to have [10:48] been semi- common because she viewed [10:51] them as her family and apparently that [10:54] is not what was viewed. So, I'll play [10:55] some of this. You know, trigger warning, [10:57] this this stuff is pretty dark, and it [10:59] just kind of shows you that uh his his [11:01] mindset uh around how this all [11:04] cultivated to eventually boundaries [11:06] being crossed. [11:06] >> My memory, my first memory is me in the [11:08] kitchen. I'm making a sandwich. I think [11:10] I'm going to go hang out at the girls [11:11] house or with some friends. Um it's [11:13] afternoon cuz it's very light in the [11:15] house. And I'm making a sandwich on the [11:16] cutting board. I remember my back is to [11:18] the wall to the rest of the kitchen. Ben [11:20] comes up behind me and hugs me [11:22] unwelcomed and unexpectedly from behind [11:25] and it's like a very close um hug and I [11:30] like now that I understand trauma after [11:32] you know being in therapy and having [11:34] licensed professionals help me to see [11:35] these things I understand now that my [11:37] trauma response is very much freeze and [11:39] very much fawn. So that means I freeze [11:41] up. So that is the first part where it [11:45] it I mean the blood oath, the sleeping [11:48] on a trampoline together is weird. This [11:50] is where it's like no man ever hugs any [11:53] woman like this. Uh that's in my opinion [11:55] that's not his wife. [11:57] It's it's just weird. Um and so they go [12:01] on and um she explains a bit more. Bla1 [12:05] chimes in. This is uh Christina and [12:06] Blaze. They they've done a great job of [12:08] of talking to some of these victims. [12:09] They have a podcast kind of highlighting [12:11] some of this sort of stuff and they've [12:12] done an amazing job documenting this. [12:14] >> I remember being angry um and like not [12:16] knowing what to do. He's hugging me very [12:18] uncomfortably. His son then walks in the [12:20] kitchen and he drops me and leaves the [12:22] room and I was like, "What the heck?" I [12:25] remember being frozen and being like, [12:26] "I'm angry. I need to leave right now." [12:28] So, I grab my sandwich. I grab my stuff. [12:30] I remember being really mad at him, like [12:31] maybe giving him a dirty look and then [12:33] going to the girls house and telling [12:34] some of my girlfriends. I had at this [12:36] girl's house I had moved out of, I had [12:38] three really good friends and I remember [12:40] telling them what happened and they were [12:41] like, "Girl, that's weird. You need to [12:42] tell Scott who was one of my other [12:43] mentors." [12:44] >> And so this is all kind of coming out [12:46] and they're having to make an additional [12:48] statement uh because people are are [12:50] sharing their stories and there's [12:53] potentially more. There seems to be more [12:55] according to to the Bethl alumni groups [12:58] that this chatter is happening on from [13:00] here. Again, it just it it keeps [13:02] escalating. This is the first like overt [13:06] essay type situation. [13:08] >> Tell us what happened um with the [13:09] Scottish Games incident and just how [13:11] that ended up taking place. [13:15] >> Okay, so yeah, I was going to the [13:17] Scottish games of his family. This is [13:18] like different Scottish clans go and you [13:21] do like traditional Scottish games and [13:22] bag pipes and the whole shebang, but [13:24] they have kids. There's a bunch of [13:26] people staying there. Um, we're I find [13:28] out when we get there we're sharing a [13:29] room, him and I, Ben and I. [13:31] >> Okay, so that's that that's really [13:33] weird. And I'm not sure [13:36] I'm not sure how that something like [13:37] that even happens, right? Like this is [13:39] this is just Yeah. [13:42] >> Um, which I'm like, okay, that's like a [13:44] little bit weird. like maybe I should [13:45] tell [13:46] >> the family set that up or um [13:48] >> or maybe Ben told told the family like, [13:50] "Hey, we can just stay in a room [13:51] together." Nobody knows. But you show up [13:53] and there's a bunk bed and that's your [13:55] room with Ben apparently. [13:57] >> Yeah, I do remember thinking this is a [13:59] little bit weird. Maybe I should mention [14:00] this to his wife, but I'm sure they all [14:01] know. And then I just like things got [14:03] busy and I dismissed it. Um as I [14:05] mentioned before and have given an [14:06] example of how like us being that close [14:07] in proximity, even sleeping near each [14:09] other was normalized and seemingly okay. [14:11] I feel fine. Like this is a dad type [14:13] figure to me. Um, I'm not in love with [14:15] this man. I don't want to be physical [14:17] with this man. So, I'm staying I'm [14:19] sleeping on the top bunk. The bottom [14:20] bunk has been moved over to the wall. [14:22] So, we're not sleeping next to each [14:23] other, but we're in the same room on [14:24] different beds. I remember him getting [14:26] up to use the bathroom and I was awake. [14:28] I It was summertime. It was very hot. [14:31] I'm an athlete and I was wearing a [14:32] sports bra and like basketball shorts or [14:34] whatever because it was hot and I was [14:35] trying to cool down to sleep. He leaves [14:38] the room. The light shines on me as he [14:39] like opens the door and I'm like, "Oh [14:41] no, he's going to see me." And then he [14:43] comes back in from the bathroom and [14:44] starts touching me inappropriately. And [14:46] I remember completely freezing um and [14:49] not knowing what to do and not stopping [14:51] it because I didn't really know how to [14:52] and I didn't want to make things seem [14:55] awkward or like like I said, my [14:57] responses are free and fun. And that's [14:58] exactly what I did in that moment. [15:00] >> Yeah. And so, uh that is the first [15:03] instance where like an act like the hug [15:06] was already weird, the blood was really [15:08] weird. Then you have that situation. And [15:11] um here's the definition of clergy [15:14] essay. It's defined as any unwanted or [15:17] non-consensual [15:18] s act behavior or exploitation committed [15:21] by a member of the clergy against a [15:24] person under their pastoral care. It is [15:26] primarily understood as a grave abuse of [15:29] power and trust where the perpetrator [15:31] uses their position of authority, [15:33] spiritual influence or as a counselor to [15:36] manipulate or coersse a congregant minor [15:39] or vulnerable adult. Okay. Uh and you [15:42] know one of the things it points out is [15:44] the betrayal of of trust but also the [15:45] power imbalance. The inherent authority [15:47] of the clergy makes true consent nearly [15:50] impossible as the victim may feel [15:52] pressured, obligated, or fearful of [15:54] divine or social repercussions. So, she [15:57] talks about how in these situations, [15:59] she's freezing, and then there's stuff [16:01] that's escalating. And so, when it all [16:03] comes out, she ends up taking hyper [16:05] responsibility and it's framed and [16:07] twisted as a consensual affair, right? [16:11] Missing some of these idiosyncrasies in [16:14] a dynamic like this. He's touching me. I [16:17] don't remember everything, but [16:19] ultimately we wind up I He pulls me down [16:21] and I'm in the bed with him. We never [16:22] had we never kissed, but boundaries were [16:25] crossed. At this time in my life, purity [16:27] is very important to me. [16:29] >> So, she talks about that and then it [16:30] happens again and it and and they [16:32] explain that situation where his wife is [16:35] gone. She says, he basically says, "Come [16:37] over like all time sake." At this point, [16:39] she's moved out. She's not living there. [16:41] Come over like all time's sake. Hanging [16:42] with the kids. The kids aren't there. [16:45] and it happens another time. And the [16:48] fallout and how all of this was handled [16:50] in my opinion is is pretty pretty [16:53] devastating um in terms of just [16:56] acknowledging there's a there's a [16:57] there's a power dynamic. Now, what's [17:00] brutal about this is that within a uh I [17:02] want to say a yearish, he was [17:04] reinstated. Like he was disciplined, but [17:07] then he was reinstated. And the way they [17:09] talked about her in this in this video [17:11] that resurfaced is pretty [17:14] pretty bad because it it made her take [17:17] the brunt of this entire debacle that [17:20] happened. If you guys want to watch the [17:22] full thing, I don't I I I I don't I [17:24] don't have the the stomach to keep going [17:26] over the the details of the essay. Um [17:29] but if you guys want to, you can and go [17:31] check out their full podcast. and then [17:33] she explains how it all folded uh came [17:35] out after the fact and and kind of her [17:37] being uh framed in a way that I I would [17:40] argue is not very accurate. Okay, so [17:42] this video right here is recently [17:45] resurfaced how a culture of honor works, [17:48] a conversation with the Armstrongs. Um, [17:51] and the way this is framed in the book [17:54] Unpunishable and Culture of Honor, I [17:57] think speaks to the deeper stuff that [18:00] has been going on with regards to how [18:02] they they view these things and um, not [18:05] prioritizing [18:07] the violation that the victim [18:09] experienced over the reinstatement of [18:11] the leader. Okay. Um, and so Daniel [18:14] opens up with this clip and then we'll [18:15] we'll we'll cut back to another version [18:17] of this and then we'll look at something [18:18] Mike Winger put out recently. How will [18:19] people ever learn from their mistakes if [18:21] we don't punish them? And isn't it human [18:24] nature to punish people who fail? You [18:26] were surrounded by a supporting cast [18:29] >> in the leadership and the way this whole [18:31] situation was handled. Uh we referred to [18:33] it over and over as the culture of honor [18:35] and uh there's a lot of dynamics that go [18:38] to that. People watching this are [18:39] familiar with that. Uh you are the [18:41] living examples of of that process [18:45] happening. Why do you think you didn't? [18:47] >> Yeah. So, this this clip ends up [18:50] resurfacing. Everyone's talking about [18:52] it. Uh they reference it in their [18:54] conversation with Sarah, this part [18:57] specifically, which is framed as if, you [18:59] know, hey, Sarah's still around, but she [19:03] decided to go a different path. And um [19:06] yeah, it's it's not good. [19:08] >> Offered her all the same support and [19:10] services. You guys are obviously trying [19:12] to save a whole family and you jumped in [19:14] with both feet and she you know she took [19:16] a different path than you guys did, but [19:18] she's still she's still in our [19:19] environment. [19:20] >> What do you make of that statement? [19:22] >> Um I just listened to that recently too [19:25] and that was like infuriating and just [19:26] painful. Um yeah, it's I don't feel that [19:30] that is true. I think that that's a lie. [19:32] Uh Ben had been around these people [19:34] since he was 3 years old from the [19:35] beginning of Waverville and Bethl's like [19:38] origin story. So, I just felt like I was [19:40] like outnumbered and I felt like they [19:41] had all surrounded him and it felt very [19:43] unsafe for me to be like, "Hey, I need [19:45] help, too." I felt like they were trying [19:47] to make me disappear. They didn't know [19:49] what to do with me. [19:50] >> And I do believe that they think they [19:51] were doing the right thing. Um, [19:53] especially given that I kind of took a [19:55] lot of the responsibility on originally [19:57] and blame. I kind of began with that, [19:59] like, you know, this is all my fault. I [20:01] don't want them to lose their jobs. I [20:02] don't want to hurt anybody, but I need [20:04] to make this right. Uh, I don't recall [20:06] them really helping me at all. In fact, [20:08] it's a very like dark time for me where [20:11] I just feel so alone and I start like [20:13] deciding to like push people away and [20:14] just keep the right people close to me. [20:16] I remember them just feeling like they [20:19] wanted me to disappear. So, I [20:20] intentionally got a job at the coffee [20:21] shop. Um, everything in me wanted to [20:23] leave and run away. I think a lot of [20:24] people would have done that, but I [20:26] remember telling myself, "No, this is my [20:27] home, too." Like, this is my faith, my [20:29] dreams, my family. This is all I know. [20:31] To go back to that, I was talking to my [20:33] friend um about this like you know what [20:35] support did they give me after we [20:36] watched Danny's podcast with Ben from [20:38] like seven or eight years ago and he [20:39] says that he offered me the same support [20:41] but I chose a different path. That's not [20:43] true. Um I thought it was pretty short [20:45] after but my friend reminded me that it [20:47] was over a year later where I was in a [20:48] church service and Danny preached on [20:49] shame and I was balling because I have [20:51] so much shame. Um I have all of this [20:54] like institutional abuse and like [20:55] confusion and I I wind up approaching [20:58] Danny and being like I have all this [20:59] shame. I don't know what to do. I'm not [21:01] healing. I'm stuck. And he's like, well, [21:03] what do you what do you want us to do? [21:05] And I'm like, I guess I was hoping for [21:06] them to like pull me into some [21:08] community. Um, and I was like, well, [21:10] clearly like it doesn't feel like you [21:12] want me here. And I was like, there's [21:14] this ministry, these people go to Bethl, [21:16] but they had their own healing ministry [21:17] outside of Bethl. They're I think [21:18] actually licensed counselors. Um, and it [21:21] was like a three-day intensive, but I [21:22] couldn't afford it. And I told Danny I [21:23] wanted to do it. And Danny and Sher paid [21:25] for me to go to that. I believe that I [21:27] can remember that's the only thing they [21:28] did for And it wasn't until I sought [21:29] them out over a year later for support. [21:31] >> Like I want to mention something that [21:32] they said on this podcast and I'll [21:34] actually play this clip as well right [21:35] here. [21:36] >> This girl is working in the coffee shop. [21:38] >> Yeah. And [21:39] >> where you go every day [21:40] >> and where I meet with my students all [21:42] the time [21:42] >> and your children cross paths [21:44] >> and they attend the school. [21:45] >> Most people run away. [21:47] >> Most people call a fresh start. [21:49] >> Yeah. [21:49] >> Most people won't face the maturity [21:53] required of a mess like this. [21:56] >> Yeah. So again, you know, I I keep [21:58] coming back to you're my heroes. [22:00] >> You're my hero. [22:01] >> Oh my gosh. You're my heroes. [22:04] Oh, [22:07] this is this is so so wanting to see [22:10] everything through rosecolored glasses [22:13] that that these people sound borderline [22:15] delusional to me with the way this is [22:17] framed. Like this is so frustrating to [22:19] listen to. I saw that interview and I [22:22] was like, "Oh man, this is bad." had. [22:23] And I had a feeling I had a feeling that [22:25] that clip, especially as it started [22:27] getting passed around, was was going to [22:28] be what what made this entire situation [22:32] worse for them because again, now we're [22:35] not pointing to just Shawn Bolts and [22:39] some of the other folks that were [22:41] potentially knowing and covered up, [22:42] which which to Beth's credit they fess [22:44] up to. But now you're talking about a [22:46] pattern, a system that just doesn't seem [22:50] to get it, unfortunately. And I thought [22:52] it's so interesting that just before he [22:55] tells them how great they are for [22:56] staying, he mentions that you're still [22:57] there at the coffee shop. [22:58] >> This girl is working in the coffee shop [23:00] where you go every day, but she's still [23:02] she's still in our environment to this [23:03] day. [23:04] >> And it's almost like a leadership blind [23:05] spot in this culture of honor. By the [23:07] way, at the beginning of that interview, [23:09] he says that they are an example of the [23:10] culture of honor. [23:11] >> We're going to talk about really the [23:12] fruit of the approach in a culture of [23:15] honor [23:15] >> and how it really set you up to succeed. [23:17] We refer to it over and over as the [23:19] culture of honor and [23:21] >> culture of honor. Uh [23:24] the downstream effects of the seems to [23:26] be culture of honor which is a book [23:27] Daniel Silk pulled out put out uh [23:30] unpunishable which is a book he put out [23:31] talking about this exact thing. I think [23:34] I think the the Culture of Honor book [23:36] came out, then this happened, then uh [23:39] Unpunishable came out, and they're [23:40] they're like bragging about this stuff. [23:42] Like they this is, you know, they they [23:45] think this is good. And again, is is [23:47] this a blind spot or is this something [23:50] that is just is a part of their DNA and [23:53] needs to be reformed? I I don't know. I [23:56] don't know. But um man, it's all [23:58] seemingly hitting the fan at once. Now, [24:01] here is the good news. news. The good [24:02] news is that he was put on [24:03] administrative leave. Like that's [24:05] awesome, right? Um good news is that the [24:08] third party investigator, right? The bad [24:11] news is this does not seem to just be [24:14] isolated cases. Let's just say there was [24:16] Shawn BS. Let's say there was the other [24:18] guy who was talking to women that Bethl [24:21] said don't talk to. Let's say uh they've [24:23] they fumbled by covering it up. the the [24:25] issue with the Ben Armstrong situation [24:27] and again it sucks because if this is [24:29] now coming out but perhaps he's been [24:31] solid for the past 15 years and this is [24:33] the last time this happened. What sucks [24:35] is this. Ben Armstrong did this when he [24:38] went and worked for Bill Johnson's [24:40] brother in Reading, California. This is [24:42] all according to Jesse Westwood who's [24:44] also a Bethl alumni. Uh Faith Reframed [24:47] is his channel. They're all from [24:49] Weaverville. All these folks are from [24:50] the same area which is a mountain town [24:52] about 45 minutes from Reading. Ben [24:54] Armstrong goes works for Bill Johnson's [24:57] brother at a church plant in Reading, [25:00] California. This happens to with a [25:03] different affair he had. We don't know [25:05] if it was the same power dynamics or [25:08] whatever, but this happens in the late [25:09] 90s in, you know, nine years later. He's [25:13] working construction because he's [25:15] clearly disqualified himself for [25:16] ministry working with Bill Johnson's [25:17] brother. Bill Johnson's the quote [25:19] unquote apostle uh of of Beth, although [25:21] he's never officially called himself [25:22] that. That's his function. So all these [25:25] people it's a tight-knit community. Then [25:26] they re they they hire him to Bethl for [25:29] the school of ministry giving him [25:31] authority um over young interns and [25:35] young people. So you have this situation [25:36] that happens in the late 90s. Then fast [25:40] forward to 2008 2009 he gets this job. [25:42] Then this happens again. And then uh [25:45] there's a situation before this happens [25:46] which is the other lady that came out [25:49] who uh alleged that she was being [25:52] groomed and then this happened. And so [25:53] it's like I is are these just whoopsy [25:57] daisy uh isolated instances or has there [26:00] been something deeper that has [26:03] positioned a a a restoration culture but [26:07] that's really been catapulted into a [26:09] protection culture. Right? That's that's [26:11] the deeper question. So when whether [26:15] charismatic ecosystems self-p police or [26:17] self preserve, this is the the deeper [26:20] issue is that if you don't self-p police [26:23] and you don't hold yourself accountable [26:24] and you just self-preserve, these things [26:26] will eventually come out, right? [26:28] Especially in today's climate, right? [26:30] Especially in today's climate. And when [26:32] you have authority, when you have [26:34] spiritual authority, um you that that [26:36] also comes with responsibility. And when [26:39] you have responsibility, that also comes [26:40] to like you you can't you you you can't [26:43] be the the hub of the charismatic [26:46] movement and all these things are [26:48] happening and not have your ducks in a [26:49] row and understand the weight and power [26:51] and responsibility that you carry. The [26:53] truth of something has to come before [26:56] the the the the need to restore the [26:59] leader every single time. And so it's [27:00] it's all it's all seemingly coming out [27:03] within several weeks of each other. And [27:05] now Bethl's issuing, you know, the the [27:08] initial statement where they repented. [27:10] Now there's two more statements that are [27:11] coming out. There's a third party [27:12] involved. Uh Daniel Silk has issued a [27:14] statement. So how much of this is just [27:16] incompetence and how much of this is [27:19] such a degree of delusion and naivity [27:21] where you are now [27:24] you have multiple situation. This is [27:26] just what's public. Who knows what else [27:28] has happened. And I'm not saying I know [27:29] any credible instances, but there are [27:31] apparently people that are going to [27:33] folks like Jesse um from the Faith [27:36] Reframed channel and are sharing these [27:38] stories to him and there's potentially a [27:40] lot more there, right? Um now again to [27:43] juxtapose this when these situations [27:46] happen and they do happen. That's the [27:47] tragic part is like people are going to [27:49] be evil and sinful. That that's the [27:51] reality of the situation. But when these [27:54] situations happen at other churches, [27:55] typically what happens and should happen [27:58] is you immediately go through the proper [28:00] channels. And if there's a crime that's [28:01] been committed, you go to the [28:02] authorities. If there hasn't been a [28:03] crime committed, but it's consensual, [28:05] you you go and by the way, clergy is a [28:08] crime in a good amount of states now. [28:10] That's a relatively recent thing. You go [28:12] and deal with it, right? Like you deal [28:14] with it and you make sure that people [28:17] are held accountable. Um, so all of this [28:20] is so so grieving um and even hard to to [28:23] talk about it because these are real [28:25] people's lives being impacted. And if [28:28] Ben Armstrong actually uh kind of told [28:32] himself this tale that this was really [28:34] an affair and hasn't, you know, sinned [28:37] in this way since then and now this is [28:39] all being dug up and now this is going [28:41] this is going to bring harm to his wife [28:42] who he probably, you know, also gas lit [28:46] in this situation, his kids. This is [28:48] this is this is a massive mess that is [28:51] being made because the foundations were [28:53] on property line because folks were [28:55] chasing prophetic culture instead of [28:57] God's truth in terms of how do you deal [28:59] with an elder who falls in this way. [29:02] Right? Uh Mike Winger put out this [29:04] statement which I thought was good. [29:05] Bethl announcement about one of their [29:07] senior leadership team. He says, "I do [29:09] not think they were unaware of [29:11] allegations of grooming and what uh [29:13] looks like SA or Clare GSA previously [29:16] called an affair. At least I don't think [29:18] the whole leadership team was unaware. [29:21] Perhaps some of them. Jesse Westwood, [29:23] who I just reigned from Faith Were [29:24] Framed, and Bla1 uh from Wake Up and Win [29:26] have both done videos on this recently. [29:29] Uh there's definitely more to this story [29:31] than the letter implies." [29:33] And this is uh the one that they read [29:36] from uh from the pull pit. I thought uh [29:39] this meme wonderfully [29:42] summarizes why we're doing this. Spencer [29:44] Dalton writes podcasters forcing Bethl [29:48] to look at their coverup culture. And [29:50] it's this meme where you he's forcing [29:54] this lady to see this. And yeah, I think [29:58] uh I think in light of all this stuff, [29:59] there seems to have been a pattern. And [30:01] that pattern is now being exposed. And [30:04] I'm not saying that in a derogatory [30:06] sense. I mean like what was beneath the [30:08] surface [30:10] has been brought to the surface and [30:12] people are finally starting to see it [30:14] for what it is. And that doesn't take [30:15] away from any of the good things that [30:17] people have experienced at Bethl. But [30:19] it's a deeper question on the idea, can [30:21] systems like this survive exposure like [30:24] this, right? Because at the end of the [30:26] day, justice matters because victims [30:29] matter. because the Sarah matter and the [30:32] Jubilees matter and their experience [30:34] matters and I'm watching I mean so many [30:36] more folks are finally coming out and [30:37] saying hey I got this word and it [30:40] derailed the trajectory of my life and I [30:43] wish somebody would have told me right [30:45] ultimately when these situ situations [30:47] happen [30:49] matters because leaders are still image [30:52] bearsers and they are capable of [30:54] repentance that's that's outside of the [30:56] allegations the institutional processes [30:59] but there's a human dignity [31:00] here that um we don't we don't want to [31:04] diminish that Bethl can repent in this [31:06] and and seemingly has gone in the right [31:08] direction. We don't want to diminish the [31:10] fact that u there probably will need to [31:13] be restitution in some of this. Um and [31:16] and none of this is to say that I'm [31:18] anti-Holy Spirit or I'm anti- the gifts [31:21] of the spirit. Um but I am pro- light. [31:26] Step in the light. I am protruuth. [31:29] show the truth when these things get [31:32] mitigated and and and and brushed under [31:34] the rug. Um it just will make things [31:36] worse. And so like a part of me, and you [31:38] guys might think this is crazy, but a [31:40] part of me feels for Ben Armstrong's [31:43] family and and potentially where he's [31:45] at. He might be in a great place today, [31:47] but because this stuff was swept under [31:49] the rug for a decade plus and framed as [31:52] this consensual affair when really there [31:55] was a pattern of Clare GSA, now his [31:58] entire life is being uprooted. Now he's [32:00] on under administrative leave. Now [32:02] there's this investigation that's going [32:04] to happen with the third party and these [32:06] these victims are going to get revisited [32:08] and there's going to be more calls with [32:09] the senior leadership team. and and and [32:11] I think there's probably awesome people [32:13] that are on the senior leadership team, [32:14] especially the younger folks. I've had a [32:17] a bit of an interaction with with some [32:19] of them um or or one of them, and I [32:21] don't want to get into too many details, [32:22] but there seems like there's some [32:23] awesome people here, right? But the [32:25] bigger question in all this is is a [32:28] question about culture, a question about [32:30] the customs, the norms of a specific [32:34] community. And um I'm I'm glad that this [32:38] sort of stuff is happening. I don't [32:39] think it's just exclusive to [32:40] charismatics. I think this stuff [32:41] probably happens in all sorts of [32:43] churches. Um, but there does seem to be [32:45] a pattern that's connected to theology [32:48] and an ideology around the stuff that [32:51] Daniel Silk has put out like culture of [32:53] honor, like unpunishable that has ripple [32:57] effects on people's lives because it [32:58] seems to prioritize leaders and people [33:01] who are gifted over folks who are just [33:05] everyday normal folks, right? uh interns [33:08] and students and the the not elite, the [33:11] not special people, right? And so it [33:13] seems like some of these blind spots are [33:15] being revealed to Bethl. Um my question [33:17] is, are they how are they going to get [33:19] through this, right? How are they going [33:20] to maneuver through this? Because, you [33:22] know, I think they have a massive [33:24] building project that they're working on [33:25] that's like a $60 million build building [33:27] project like this that that's a probably [33:28] a heavy lift for them financially. And [33:31] so I'm curious like where is this going [33:33] to go? But but what I what I am sure of, [33:35] it definitely seems like the touch not [33:38] the Lord's anointed and paralleling [33:40] David and Saul and Saul not being killed [33:43] by David even when he could be and how [33:45] we're not to touch the Lord's anointed. [33:46] Um that that that that's fading in [33:50] church culture in general and [33:52] specifically in charismatic culture. And [33:53] I think that's good, right? because I [33:55] think we need to have more loyalty to [33:58] the the victims or the potential victims [34:00] uh than loyalty to a platform or a brand [34:03] or a name. Ultimately, this is what [34:05] happens when we stop calling evil what [34:07] it is. We start explaining it away. And [34:10] that brings us to a deeper conversation [34:12] on where good and evil themselves are up [34:15] for debate. This is Dr. John Deartini. [34:20] And recently he had a conversation with [34:23] Aubrey Marcus uh that questions the very [34:27] foundations of if there is objective [34:30] good or evil. Okay. Now, Dr. John De [34:33] Martini seems to be kind of like a new [34:35] age woowoo philosopher uh type of [34:40] character with regards to some of this [34:42] stuff. He coins himself as a human [34:44] behavior expert. And uh uh John uh [34:47] Aubrey Marcus is a podcaster. Uh I don't [34:51] know if he's a Christian. There's [34:52] definitely some newagy stuff on here uh [34:55] with regards to um how he frames some of [34:58] this sort of stuff that he talks about [35:00] the God within himself and that sort of [35:01] stuff which oddly enough is kind of [35:03] similar conversation that comes out of [35:05] some of the hypercharismatic stuff, [35:06] right? that like because Jesus is in [35:09] you, you have the same authority to the [35:12] divine and we need to reclaim the new [35:14] age and all that sort of stuff. But I [35:16] wanted to highlight this for you guys [35:17] because I think this is some of the [35:19] dangers with regards to when you stop uh [35:24] engaging with the objective good and [35:26] evil. When you when you stop calling it [35:28] out, you start explaining it away. [35:30] Right? So check this out. Everybody [35:32] who's been raped attracted that [35:34] >> 1300 cases of [35:36] >> and the children attracted the the [35:38] >> you really want to go there. [35:40] >> That's wild. That's a crazy claim that [35:44] victims participate in their own trauma. [35:46] Now, I understand that that that that [35:48] just because someone is a victim or [35:49] victimized doesn't mean that they don't [35:50] have agency, right? And and sometimes [35:53] that can get complicated, especially if [35:55] like two people are uh consensually [35:58] together on a date, have drinks. Well, [36:01] when you have drinks for for example, [36:03] you are uh incapable of giving consent, [36:07] right? So, we're talking about the way [36:08] the world world functions. Um you're [36:10] incapable of giving consent. Um but this [36:13] is way deeper than that. Like this is [36:15] deeper than than just like victims in a [36:18] situation have agency and every [36:21] situation is not super cleancut, right? [36:23] Um this is just talking about objective [36:27] PDF activities. Go. All these things [36:29] that we label good and bad have been [36:31] labeled good or bad depending on who [36:33] you're taking sides with. [36:34] >> I have a really hard time with this. If [36:36] I went home today and somebody was [36:39] assaulting my wife, I would forcibly [36:40] stop it. [36:41] >> Probably because you would have [36:42] >> probably 100% certainly. I wouldn't say [36:45] maybe this is his belief and his you're [36:48] going to react in that setting exactly [36:51] proportion to your morality at the time. [36:52] If you see what he's doing as evil, [36:54] you're going to do what you can to stop [36:56] him. But it [36:56] >> if you see what he is doing is evil. Oh [36:58] my gosh, man. The the claims here are [37:02] insane. [37:02] >> is evil. [37:03] >> In your perception, it will be. [37:04] >> In your perception, it will be. So, he's [37:06] talking he's giving him a hypothetical [37:07] scenario and saying, "Hey, if you are um [37:11] if you walk in and someone is violating, [37:14] you know, your family member, your wife, [37:16] uh he says your perception of it will be [37:18] yikes. [37:19] >> It's not okay to beat a child to a pulp. [37:21] It's not okay to a child. There is [37:24] something actually fundamental inside of [37:26] us that is on a driving force towards [37:30] life, love, freedom, the experience to [37:33] live this beautiful world. And if [37:34] somebody is intentionally interfering [37:37] with that, we have an obligation to try [37:39] and prevent or stop it. You can override [37:41] your impulses. I've wanted to hit [37:43] somebody and not done it. You've [37:44] repressed it inside yourself and then [37:46] attacked your customers right here in [37:47] front of me. [37:49] >> Attacked your customers right here in [37:50] front of me. He becomes the victim. Oh [37:54] man. Oh man. But this is this is this is [37:56] the thing. [37:58] More relativism, right? Like morality is [38:01] relative. And when there's more [38:02] relative, it could always lead to [38:04] protecting the abuser. Cuz if evil isn't [38:08] real, then abuse isn't real. And we [38:11] could use all the psychological language [38:13] you want to replace these moral [38:15] categories, therapeutic language, so on [38:18] and so forth. But without justice, [38:20] it just all comes back to the the the [38:24] enablement of the abuser, right? If if [38:27] evil is subjective, institutions never [38:29] have to refra repent. They just reframe [38:32] it. Yikes, man. [38:36] >> You Well, you're basically taking [38:37] information that that goes against what [38:39] you say and you're saying, "I'm just [38:40] going to refuse to put it on my show [38:41] because of it." It's like a fight to [38:43] you. It doesn't match your belief. [38:44] >> He's a victim now. He's a vict. guy that [38:46] makes the crazy asinine claims that [38:48] abusers attract the things that come to [38:51] them is is is a victim in this in this [38:53] in this trailer, which by the way is the [38:55] best rage bait I've seen yet on the [38:57] internet. [38:59] >> So, you're ready to fight. [39:00] >> Your hands are shaking. [39:02] >> When you say that you're going to not go [39:04] any further on a podcast because of what [39:06] I'm saying because it challenges you and [39:09] you're wanting to avoid [39:10] >> because it's putting out information [39:11] that I think is detrimental to the [39:12] world. I'm not going to pacify my my my [39:15] research for any human being on this [39:17] planet. Nobody. [39:18] >> They look like they both want to rage [39:19] quit. I love this. [39:20] >> The reality is that there's upsides to [39:22] that event. There's upsides to the [39:24] murder. [39:24] >> Yes, there's upsides to it. [39:26] >> I think we're going to have to stop [39:28] here, John. [39:29] >> Yikes. Hey, man. Props to uh Aubrey [39:32] Marcus. That was the best rage bait I've [39:34] ever seen in my life. That was that was [39:36] amazing. I uh I'm hooked. I'm in. This [39:40] trailer was so good. I had to go and [39:41] look it up. look up some of the full [39:43] conversation and just looking on the [39:44] time stamps like it's absolute woo [39:46] relativism and nonsense as far as I'm [39:48] concerned, right? But uh yeah, no such [39:50] thing as evil. Check this out. [39:52] >> Everybody who's been attracted that [39:54] >> 1300 cases of 13 [39:56] >> and the children attracted the the [39:58] >> I didn't say attracted. You did. [40:00] >> No, I never said you attracted into [40:02] their life. [40:02] >> I said that they will automatically have [40:04] in their life the counterbalancing [40:07] perception. So if they're addicted to [40:09] one side, the opposite comes in. Okay, [40:11] let's go answer that question then. The [40:13] the child the child who's been abused [40:15] and the and the person who's been did [40:17] they attract that into their life? [40:19] >> Okay, you you really want to go there? [40:21] Let's go. All right. [40:22] >> I I thought this was clickbait. [40:24] >> When you take if you start with it's too [40:26] broad. You got to break down the to its [40:28] components. U first thing you find is [40:30] something like threat. Then you might [40:32] find violence. Then you might find um [40:35] deceit. You break it down. There's 18 [40:38] most common things that I've seen in [40:39] cases. 18. Now, if I asked you, have you [40:43] ever threatened somebody? If you're [40:44] honest, you'll have said yes. You've [40:46] probably threatened somebody in your [40:48] life. If I said you ever tried to force [40:49] somebody to do something they didn't [40:50] want to do. If you're honest with [40:52] yourself, you probably have done that. [40:53] Maybe your kids when they they wanted to [40:55] play and you said no, DO YOUR HOMEWORK. [40:57] WHAT? WHAT? OKAY. Oh my goodness. Okay. [41:00] This what I mean by the moral categories [41:03] are so distorted here, right? Like me [41:07] selling me forcing my son to go brush [41:09] his teeth is not the same as [41:15] forcing someone to do something against [41:17] their will or coercing someone. That is [41:19] not the same thing. So this dude is [41:21] making an obvious moral category error [41:24] here um to reinstate this absolutely [41:27] asini notion that there's no such thing [41:28] as evil. If you go and and you take a [41:32] look at where you've deceived somebody, [41:33] well, you've deceived yourself in some [41:35] cases and probably other people. If you [41:37] break into its little components and [41:40] identify all the components and don't [41:42] take the big generalization and label, [41:45] you have done the same thing. So the [41:47] first thing I do with people that have [41:48] been raped is I go in and help them find [41:50] out what are the components, where do [41:52] they have done them in their life. That [41:54] calms down some of the judgment on it in [41:56] the first place. So instead of being a [41:57] victim, [41:58] >> calms down some of the judgment on it in [42:01] the first place. Wow. [42:05] Wow. [42:07] Oh my gosh. This is This is absolutely [42:12] absolute. [42:13] I I I really thought that, oh man, they [42:15] just click baited this this trailer. [42:17] They did a good job on it. No, no, no. [42:18] This dude this dude is really as [42:21] unhinged as I thought he was. and [42:22] they're now looking at it with a little [42:24] bit more rationality. Then I go in [42:26] there, let's take each one, what was the [42:29] gain and the benefit that came out of [42:30] that moment. And I did that in front of [42:32] 600 people for a lady that was stabbed [42:34] 18 times and left on a street with a [42:37] chain to a piece of cement to be run [42:39] over by trucks. In about an hour and a [42:41] half, she was in a state of gratitude. [42:44] She shifted her perspective. She [42:46] actually closed her eyes and saw the [42:48] individual that did it. She was freed [42:50] from the anger and resentment. She lost [42:52] 45 to 50 pounds. [42:53] >> You c you you can have gratitude and be [42:56] freed and and all those sort of things [42:58] without minimizing the act as as less [43:01] evil or more uh you know needing to [43:06] empathize with the abuser or or or break [43:09] down you know deconstructed to its bare [43:12] bones of these 18 things of like it's [43:14] this is so foolish [43:16] >> pounds of weight. She changed her hair. [43:18] She was now able to date people again. [43:20] She started her own radio show in [43:22] Washington DC. Her life changed because [43:24] I asked questions that she never got [43:26] asked because she was trapped and that [43:28] was evil and I'm now trapped for the [43:30] rest of my life in that thing. I made [43:32] her look at where she did everything [43:35] that he had done in her own form. Uh she [43:38] in her moan metaphorically even stabbed [43:41] people in the back that were close [43:43] friends in her perspective. She found [43:45] out what was the [43:46] >> Do you see the mental gymnastics that [43:48] people have to do in order to [43:52] make sense of an a worldview that is so [43:56] incoherent? The okay someone stabbing [43:59] you will think about the times you've [44:01] stabbed someone in their back. Someone [44:04] taking advantage of you think of the [44:06] times you've had to force people to [44:08] brush their teeth. What about the times [44:10] you've had to force your kids to go to [44:12] bed? This this is absolutely crazy. [44:16] >> Upsides to it. It helped her get out of [44:18] a relationship she didn't want to be in. [44:20] It helped her get out of a city she [44:22] didn't want to live in. There's a whole [44:23] lot of things that came out of it that [44:24] she was very blessed by. When she got [44:26] through, [44:28] >> she actually closed her eyes, saw the [44:29] individual that experienced this from. [44:32] She had tears in her eyes. She said, [44:33] "Thank you." And that's something that [44:36] most people don't comprehend. And most [44:38] people are real caught in their little [44:40] moral trips and they're basically [44:41] victims of history their whole life. [44:43] instead of looking at a possibility that [44:45] there may be an alternative way of [44:46] looking at life. [44:47] >> So I think that what you went through [44:50] with her was a very beautiful thing. [44:52] >> Well, I've done that on 1300. [44:54] >> I don't I don't deny that. [44:56] >> And that's why you won't convince me [44:57] that you can't find blessings in it. [44:58] >> I'm not trying to convince you that. But [45:00] >> then it's not evil until you choose to [45:03] make it stay stay evil. It's just an [45:06] >> Yeah, this is so this is so goofy. Okay, [45:08] so here here here's the deal. You can [45:10] find [45:12] the the blessing through a tragic [45:14] situation. You could choose gratitude [45:16] despite lack. [45:19] You you can walk through [45:23] utter evil without being succumbed to it [45:26] and crushed by it. [45:30] I'm speaking someone as it, you know, [45:32] experiencing essay as a kid. first being [45:35] exposed to adult content pornography [45:38] when I was five and then uh experiencing [45:41] essay when I was seven or eight by older [45:44] teenager boys, right, that were five, [45:46] six years older than me. And that did a [45:48] huge number on me. You can walk through [45:50] that and I wouldn't change anything [45:53] about my life walking through that, [45:55] right? Despite there being some things [45:57] that followed me into adulthood, the [45:59] things that I still have to work on, [46:00] things that I got to be intentional [46:01] about. Um, but I'm still grateful and I [46:04] didn't choose to to to to succumb to the [46:06] evil and to be a victim. [46:09] I persevered despite [46:12] primarily because of Jesus in my life [46:14] and primarily because of a biblical [46:15] anchoring and understanding that that [46:18] which the enemy meant for evil, God used [46:20] for good. So that's a that's that's a [46:22] that's a great framework. But but the [46:23] issue is there's a minimization that's [46:27] happening in this situation when you're [46:28] trying to remove the objective nature of [46:31] evil and you're trying to minimize that [46:35] for the sake of whatever breakthrough [46:38] Dr. uh John D. Martini is trying to get [46:40] his patients through. You don't have to [46:42] minimize how someone's experiences in [46:46] order to break through in a different [46:49] area. And I think that is what's so [46:51] frustrating about hearing him talk about [46:53] this is that that is just a it's it's an [46:55] asinine position. So most people who [46:58] experience terrible things um figure out [47:02] ways to cope and work through it and [47:04] oftentimes become more resilient on the [47:07] other side of that. That's that's that's [47:08] the awesome part about u how life works [47:12] sometimes. However, um him uh minimizing [47:16] that is what is is the visceral reaction [47:18] that that I'm having and maybe some of [47:20] you guys are having towards watching [47:22] that is you're trying to explain [47:23] something away instead of exposing it [47:25] for how evil it is and then helping [47:27] someone heal through it, right? Like [47:29] like if someone breaks their arm in an [47:32] automobile crash because there's a drunk [47:34] driver, you don't have to minimize how [47:37] evil that drunk driver was, how careless [47:38] that drunk driver was. You don't have to [47:40] minimize that reality in order to help [47:43] someone get to the hospital, get [47:45] surgery, do physical therapy, right? It [47:50] both things are true. There's evil [47:52] there. And then there's a opportunity [47:54] for massive redemption. And we talk [47:56] about this all the time on the channel. [47:57] Matter of fact, I put together a whole [47:58] course that's available on our Patreon [48:00] called Master My Habits. I think it's [48:02] mastermyhabits.com or if you go to it's [48:04] free on Patreon. like you could be just [48:05] be a free follower there that I put [48:07] together with my therapist on how to [48:08] overcome addiction and trauma and all [48:11] these sorts of things, right? So, man, [48:13] that was that was that was really hard [48:15] to listen through. But but but here's [48:16] the deal. At the end of the day, [48:18] everyone is searching for meaning, even [48:20] the new age woowoo types, right? That [48:22] they're searching for meaning. It's just [48:24] there's a lack of moral coherence. When [48:27] you have uh objective good, um you have [48:32] to defend the vulnerable. And if you do [48:35] not have objective good, then you cannot [48:38] defend the moral the vulnerable because [48:40] why why did the vulnerable matter, [48:42] right? Might is right. Right. Which I [48:45] think is is very sad to see this sort of [48:48] stuff play out and how um yeah, [48:51] absolutely [48:52] ah this position is because what it does [48:55] is it justifies and justifies and [48:57] justifies and he's I think his his his [49:00] approach here is not benevolent. I think [49:01] he's trying to be benevolent. I think [49:02] he's trying to help people. Um but it's [49:05] at the expense of saying absolutely [49:07] asinine statements like there's no such [49:09] thing as evil and I just yeah I just [49:11] absolutely disagree with it. So once you [49:13] start blurring the lines between good [49:16] and evil once you stop understanding [49:19] that there's a realm beyond this realm [49:22] uh it it's not long before people start [49:24] speculating about what's real cosmically [49:27] which is why uh this next clip uh caught [49:30] my attention. This is a clip that was [49:32] viral over the weekend that I wanted to [49:34] highlight with you guys, highlight for [49:35] you guys. And this is Obama who [49:38] clarified this statement talking about [49:41] him believing that aliens are real. [49:44] Okay, so let's look at this together. I [49:46] found this uh very interesting and of [49:49] course you know Sagar on Breaking Point [49:51] who is uh into aliens and all that sort [49:55] of stuff uh was excited about this topic [49:57] as was I right because I think there's a [49:59] there's a biblical explanation for [50:01] aliens which we're going to look at here [50:02] in a second. Okay. So this is the [50:04] original conversation that he had that [50:06] got him into hot water about aliens and [50:08] then we're going to get into some of the [50:10] particulars that he said to follow up on [50:13] this. [50:13] >> Are aliens real? Uh they're real, but I [50:17] haven't seen them. And and and uh [50:18] they're not being kept in uh what is it? [50:21] Area 51. [50:22] >> Area 51. There there's no underground uh [50:25] facility unless there's this enormous [50:28] conspiracy and they they hid it from the [50:31] president of the United States. [50:33] >> What was the first question you wanted? [50:37] >> That's a good answer. So he's saying [50:39] they're not real, but unless there's a [50:41] conspiracy that they hid it from the [50:43] president of the United States. Well, [50:44] you know, everyone's going to say, [50:44] "Well, of course there's, you know, [50:47] there's that that is a possibility." Or [50:49] the alien buffs are [50:50] >> answered when you became president. [50:52] >> Uh, where are the aliens? [50:54] >> Where are the aliens? [50:55] >> So then the president went on to clarify [50:57] his position. He says, "I was trying to [50:59] stick with the spirit of the speed [51:01] round, but since it's gotten attention, [51:03] let me clarify. Statistically, the [51:06] universe is so vast that the odds are [51:09] good there's life out there. But the [51:12] distance between solar systems are so [51:14] great that the chances we've been [51:16] visited by aliens is low. And I saw no [51:20] evidence during my presidency that [51:22] extraterrestrials have made contact with [51:24] us. Really? Okay. So, I actually agree [51:28] with him, but I think there's a more [51:30] simple explanation here in a second that [51:32] we'll go to. All right. Okay. And this [51:34] is apparently an older video of him [51:36] speaking a bit more on aliens and uh [51:40] from 2021 I believe. So shout out to to [51:43] Breaking Points for assembling all this [51:44] for us. [51:45] >> The truth is that when I came into [51:47] office I asked right I was like all [51:49] right [51:49] >> that by the way that so many people [51:51] would ask this question. you know, is [51:53] there the lab somewhere where we're [51:55] keeping the uh alien specimens and [51:57] spaceships? [51:59] And uh uh you know, they did a little [52:03] bit of research and uh the answer was [52:06] no. Uh so imagine um but what what is [52:11] true uh and I'm I'm actually being [52:14] serious here is is that u there are [52:17] uh there's footage and records of [52:20] objects in the skies that we don't know [52:24] exactly what they are. We can't explain [52:27] uh how they moved their trajectory. uh [52:32] they they did not have um an easily [52:37] explainable pattern. And so, you know, I [52:41] I think that we're uh people still take [52:44] seriously trying to investigate and [52:45] figure out what that is. Uh but I have [52:48] nothing to report to you today. [52:50] >> There you go. Look, put it together. He [52:52] says, "I saw no evidence that they have [52:54] made contact with us." That's that's not [52:56] the same thing as if you can surmise [52:59] that China, Russia, the United States [53:02] are not behind something that's flying [53:03] around in the sky at instantaneous [53:05] speed, what else are you supposed to [53:06] deduce? What else could it possibly be? [53:09] Is it always going to be Oh, it's a [53:10] weather balloon. It's Yeah. So, I got I [53:12] got you. I got you, Sagar. So, the the [53:15] probability of life versus ev evidence [53:17] of visitation. That's really what we're [53:18] going to get into, right? And so, here's [53:20] the idea. There's there's physical [53:22] limits to interstellar travel. That's [53:25] what President Obama was saying that if [53:28] you're talking about travel between [53:29] galaxies, there's a lot of restraints. [53:32] Speed of light is one of those [53:33] restraints. Energy requirements. Um [53:36] there's there's multiple ways to to say, [53:39] "Hey, you you're not even if they're out [53:42] there in the universe, you're not going [53:44] to be able to uh prove that that sort of [53:48] technology is here because there seems [53:50] to be multiple laws that are being [53:52] broken, right? And uh people say, "Well, [53:55] maybe that's just in our galaxy." It's [53:56] like, "No, no, no. In general, I it [53:58] would be almost impossible to travel [54:00] from one galaxy to another galaxy." [54:02] Which leads us to this passage in [54:04] Ephesians 6:12. It says, "We are not [54:07] fighting against flesh and blood [54:10] enemies, but against evil rulers and [54:13] authorities of the unseen world, against [54:17] mighty powers in this dark world, and [54:19] against evil spirits in the heavenly [54:22] places. therefore put on the every piece [54:24] of God's armor. And so that inspired we [54:26] did the armor of God collection a while [54:28] ago. And so um this idea of an unseen [54:31] world, a unseen realm, a different [54:34] dimension. So I think what's more [54:36] possible and I would say more biblically [54:38] aligned is that when you look at like [54:40] the work of Dr. Michael Heiser, you [54:42] know, the the the late Dr. Dr. Michael [54:44] Heiser. Um, you start discovering that [54:47] the reality is that it's more likely [54:49] that there's interdimensional [54:52] aliens, [54:54] demons, right, than there are [54:57] interstellar [54:59] coming across from different galaxies, [55:01] right? And so the the ancient biblical [55:04] worldview already includes nonhuman [55:08] intelligence. So, so Christians don't [55:10] even need to uh deal with the sci-fi [55:12] questions of other beings, right? [55:14] Interdimensional spiritual beings are [55:17] coherent with a biblical cosmology, [55:20] right? Biological organisms crossing [55:22] across galaxies, uh, not so much, right? [55:27] Um, surviving radiation, overcoming [55:30] relativistic time relations, the the the [55:33] speed of light, energy constraints. But [55:36] the Bible doesn't affirm [55:38] extraterrestrial [55:40] beings, but it absolutely affirms non a [55:43] non-material realm, right? And so the [55:47] the interesting part about this whole [55:48] conversation and and and even Sagar [55:51] talking about it is that people are [55:52] hungry for transcendence. People are [55:55] hungry for something beyond this realm [55:58] and and and a aliens function as a [56:01] secular angel of sorts, right? They [56:04] folks don't want to surrender their life [56:06] to the creator and understand that there [56:07] is an unseen realm of angels and demons [56:09] and all these things that's happening [56:11] and we see happening in scripture. Some [56:13] could argue that it's connected to the [56:15] Nephilim in Genesis and the dismbi [56:18] disemembered spirits and then the the [56:21] the Nephilim being killed off before the [56:23] flood, but then their spirits seem to be [56:25] on the earth. All of that I think makes [56:28] way more sense that there is [56:29] interdimensional [56:31] travel. We've talked about this with my [56:32] man Nate Salah on the channel before. [56:34] Then there is the reality that there is [56:37] um uh across galaxies aliens traveling [56:41] to our world. I I I so I I'm with the [56:45] president in that sense. And then he's [56:46] also true in saying that yeah there [56:48] there seem to be some sort of uh [56:51] gathering of um these videos clearly of [56:54] these objects defying these basic law of [56:57] physics. Uh, and then also the [57:00] collection probably they they probably [57:02] have some sort of physical forms. I I [57:04] would guess. I don't know. I don't know. [57:06] But I think that's a much more coherent [57:08] connection to that than this idea that [57:11] uh there's aliens traveling across a [57:14] galaxy and coming to see us with just [57:18] technology that that's beyond human [57:21] comprehension at this point. But [57:22] nevertheless, I'm still grateful that [57:24] that hunger for something beyond this [57:26] world doesn't just have to stop in Alien [57:29] Talk. It also shows up in conversations [57:32] around relics and artifacts, physical [57:35] objects that many people hope can help [57:38] anchor transcendence, right? Which [57:40] brings us to my buddy Gavin Orland. He [57:42] put out a really good video about the [57:44] Shroud of Torin, which I love talking [57:47] about the Shroud of Torin. I think it's [57:48] one of the most fascinating uh topics [57:51] regarding anything from antiquity that [57:54] that can point to or substantiate the [57:56] reality that man this this seems like [57:58] something otherworldly right in terms of [58:00] the negative image that's uh exuberated [58:06] through some sort of light on the shroud [58:08] that that can't be explained. I think [58:10] it's fascinating. Gavin does a really [58:12] good video today um talking about if CS [58:16] Lewis believed the shroud was real. [58:18] Okay, so I'm going to pick this up at [58:19] the four minute mark and then we'll look [58:20] at another clip. [58:21] >> If you feel that way and you see an [58:22] image that might be what Jesus actually [58:24] looks like, it is going to hit you like [58:26] a ton of bricks and you don't need to be [58:28] certain about anything before you have [58:30] that experience. Just like if you got a [58:32] letter from a long-lost love and you're [58:33] only 50/50 on whether it's a a forgery [58:35] or even if you only think there's a 10% [58:36] chance, it's still going to have an [58:38] emotional impact upon you. And this [58:39] image is especially alluring in that it [58:41] helps us think about the resurrected [58:43] Christ in particular and the [58:44] resurrection as a unique event. [58:47] >> So since the resurrection is a one-off [58:48] event, you know, I've done other videos. [58:50] I'll put up this thumbnail on the screen [58:52] and link to these various videos I [58:53] reference here in the video. [58:54] >> Yeah, that negative image of light [58:56] shining on the shroud would would [58:58] technically be the resurrected Jesus or [59:01] even capturing the resurrection of [59:04] Jesus, right? Which is actually really [59:06] trippy to think about. [59:06] >> Yeah. Description, you can go look this [59:08] up. That's a video I did on the nature [59:09] of the resurrection and I talk about [59:10] Jesus's resurrected body as creation [59:12] 2.0. It's a physical and yet immortal [59:14] body. Nothing like that has ever existed [59:16] before. What is my favorite doctrine to [59:18] think about and so uh because we don't [59:20] have any parallel cases for this you [59:21] know other people were uh resuscitated [59:24] we might say but they didn't have the [59:25] kind of experience of Easter morning. [59:26] This is like second major event in all [59:28] created reality. And so uh because we [59:30] have no parallel cases it's fascinating [59:32] to just wonder about what did this look [59:34] like? How might it have gone and how [59:36] might it have impacted a physical object [59:38] like a shroud? I mean just imagine it [59:39] happening you know early Sunday morning [59:41] hell is still partying think they [59:44] thinking they have won and then the body [59:46] is moving and you know what was that [59:48] first moment like and I don't think we [59:49] can know all of this with certainty but [59:50] it's so edifying to think about and my [59:52] point is just that the shroud of turn is [59:53] going to make you think about all this [59:54] it's wonderful [59:55] >> but here's what I think we need to [59:56] remember and this is the great news that [59:57] I think Christians can come together on [59:59] and that is you don't need to have [60:00] certainty about the shroud of turn [60:02] >> in order to have certainty about Jesus [60:04] and his resurrection come on [60:05] >> because the evidence for that number one [60:07] is very good and I've done a video on [60:08] that as well. You can see the thumb [60:09] there. But even more than the evidence, [60:11] the Holy Spirit can implant that [60:13] knowledge on your heart. [60:14] >> Uh so much so that you're overflowing [60:16] with joy [60:18] >> because you love Christ even though [60:19] you've never seen him. Uh as Peter says, [60:22] though you have not seen him, you love [60:24] him and it fills you with joy [60:25] inexpressable. So that you know, you [60:28] don't need to see Jesus's face in order [60:30] to have that joy, to have that certainty [60:31] in your heart. The best the most [60:32] important thing is that he's he's real [60:33] and he rose from the dead. [60:35] >> Amen. I mean, one of the ways you could [60:37] think about it, right, is that in light [60:39] of everything we've talked about today, [60:41] if if evil isn't real, then the truth [60:46] collapses. [60:47] But if relics are required for your [60:51] faith, then your faith can collapse, [60:53] right? Because what if a relic gets [60:55] disproven? Now, I tend to be of the [60:58] opinion that I I I see some remarkable [61:00] things with the shroud and I' I'd like [61:02] to believe it's real, but I don't hinge [61:05] my faith on that, right? Because if a [61:07] relic is if a relic is required for [61:10] faith, then then everything collapses, [61:13] right? And and as Gavin is pointing out, [61:15] Christianity stands or falls on the [61:18] resurrection, not on the shroud, not on [61:21] a relic, right? And so it's it's [61:23] understandable that that people want [61:25] physical proof. We are embodied [61:28] creatures after all, right? We are [61:29] physical beings. However, um the [61:33] certainty to need proof, I think ends up [61:36] setting a trap because if if you [61:39] absolutely need certainty and the shroud [61:42] was proven to be real, there would still [61:44] be people that would say that's not [61:45] enough proof. Why would God not come [61:48] back today where there's all this [61:49] technology and video cameras and you [61:51] would think that this would be the [61:53] opportune time to prove himself real? [61:56] Because it still requires a degree of [61:57] faith, right? And faith and certainty [62:00] aren't the same thing. Now, once you [62:02] grow in faith, you become more certain [62:04] over your lifetime of the faith that [62:06] you've walked out, but they're but [62:08] they're not the same thing. And so, I I [62:10] love the reality that I'm certain about [62:13] my faith because I've applied it, [62:15] because I've lived it out. And then in [62:16] hindsight, I'm I'm seeing the hand of [62:18] God move. I'm seeing the evidence of the [62:21] resurrection in in my salvation in my [62:23] own life. That's the beauty of all of [62:25] this, right? Is that um there's a [62:27] there's a degree that that that that's [62:29] mysterious of what we're living out, but [62:31] we don't have to stay in that. Like we [62:33] can continue walking out that and become [62:36] more certain and confident with time and [62:38] experience. And by the way, if you're [62:40] enjoying hearing from Gavin, I have to [62:42] let you guys know he's going to be at [62:44] our second annual Bless God Summit [62:46] happening here in just a few weeks, [62:48] March 5th, 6th, and 7th here in [62:50] beautiful Oceanside, California. He's [62:52] doing a armchair discussion with um [62:56] Michael Nolles on Protestantism versus [62:59] Catholicism and the differences and the [63:01] similarities. And so that's happening [63:03] March 5th, 6th, and 7th. Wes Huff is [63:05] going to be there. KB and A mean from [63:07] Southside Rabbi is going to be there. [63:09] VIP tickets for this are already sold [63:10] out, but we do still have some general [63:12] admission tickets. They're 300 bucks. [63:14] And we also have a few scholarships [63:16] left. So, if you're in the area, meaning [63:18] you're in North County, San Diego, and [63:19] you can commit to being here all three [63:21] days, go down, apply for a scholarship. [63:23] We want to make sure we get as many of [63:24] you guys there. That's the lineup, by [63:26] the way. This is a stellar lineup. Mike [63:27] Winger is going to be there. Ninjas and [63:29] butterflies, L Rose, Trizle Man Fitness. [63:31] This is going to be a phenomenal event. [63:33] Um, if you scroll down, you can see [63:36] right here, scholarship applications, [63:38] apply for a scholarship, then get a hold [63:39] of me over DM, uh, so I can make sure [63:42] that you're there in the room with us [63:44] and you don't miss out on this awesome [63:47] opportunity. Um, again, tickets are 300 [63:49] bucks. If you have it, you want to [63:50] sponsor a pay it forward ticket, you can [63:51] do that. And if you're like, "Hey man, [63:53] I'm not from the area. There's no way I [63:54] can make it there even if you give me a [63:56] scholarship." That's fine. We got you [63:57] covered, too. We have the virtual ticket [63:59] available now. This is 75 bucks. get you [64:01] the live stream and every replay from [64:04] the summit um over at blessgod.co. [64:08] You can pick that up. Go to blessgod.co [64:11] and there is the virtual tickets. And by [64:13] the way, some other stuff has been [64:14] restocked like my 60-day occupied till I [64:16] come, my godly ambition book. Uh we have [64:18] all sorts of stuff. So anyway, that's [64:20] available right now. You can pick it up. [64:22] Let's jump back into this uh video from [64:24] Gavin Orland here. He ties in CS Lewis's [64:28] view on the shroud. Check this out. I [64:30] really want to put the focus on the main [64:33] parts of our faith. And I think that's [64:34] something that's helpful to remember [64:36] when we're thinking about a topic like [64:37] this. Final comment, sometimes it is [64:40] claimed that CS Lewis embraced the [64:42] authenticity of the shroud. [64:44] >> Uh because someone sent him a picture of [64:45] it and he had it framed and hung on his [64:48] bedroom wall in his Oxford home and it [64:49] remained there until he died. [64:51] >> But I want to read to you what he [64:52] actually said about it. And I think this [64:53] is a good [64:54] >> That's pretty cool. So if someone sent [64:55] me a picture of the actual shroud, I [64:57] probably too would frame it and have it [64:59] in my studio or have it around my home. [65:01] >> Good summitative uh statement that [65:04] reflects the kind of posture that I [65:06] would love to encourage on a topic like [65:07] this. He wrote a letter to the Anglican [65:09] nun who sent it to him and said this. [65:10] Thank you so much for the head of our [65:12] Lord from the shroud. It has grown upon [65:14] me wonderfully. I don't commit myself to [65:17] the genuiness. One can never be quite [65:20] certain. But the great value is to make [65:22] one realize that he was a man and once [65:24] even a dead man. There is so much [65:26] difference between a doctrine and a [65:28] realization. [65:30] >> You see, CS Lewis sees this as a [65:32] devotional reminder of Christ's real [65:34] humanity first and foremost, but remains [65:36] open and non-committal on its genuiness [65:38] and even says, "I don't I don't see how [65:39] you could be certain." And I think [65:40] that's a a healthy posture for us where [65:42] on the one hand, you just don't need to [65:43] be certain. Right? Remember Pope John [65:45] Paul's reference to interior freedom. [65:47] You can leave things open when you're [65:48] not sure. That's fine. [65:50] >> But on the other hand, you can let it be [65:51] a reminder to you of what you are [65:52] certain about. [65:53] >> Jesus was a real man. He had a real face [65:57] like that picture with the mustache and [65:58] the beard and the nose, you know, and he [66:01] really died and he really was buried in [66:03] a linen. And he really was risen from [66:05] the dead. [66:06] >> Yeah. [66:06] >> And whether or not that's his face [66:08] you're looking at on this shroud, [66:10] >> if you trust in him and surrender your [66:11] life to him and follow him in this [66:13] world, you will see his face. And you [66:14] can be more certain of that than you are [66:15] of anything in all reality. [66:17] >> Amen. Amen. And friends, if you haven't [66:19] if you haven't placed your faith in [66:20] Jesus, if you haven't surrendered your [66:22] life in Jesus, please do that. Please do [66:24] that. Um it's by far the the best [66:27] decision I've ever made, by far uh the [66:29] the thing that's transformed me from the [66:31] inside out the most. simply [66:33] acknowledging that man on left on my own [66:35] merits, left on left to my own devices. [66:39] Uh I am uh a sinner in need of grace and [66:42] mercy and Jesus demonstrated that grace [66:45] and mercy by living the life I couldn't [66:46] live, dying to death I should have died [66:48] on the cross um in my place for my sin [66:51] and then rose on a third day. And and [66:53] the shroud could potentially be the [66:55] thing that captures that. Um, and that's [66:58] magnificent as a as as as a piece of [67:01] history. But, um, I know that that [67:04] happened because I've seen that once he [67:05] rose and I and and and came to to to [67:07] dwell in me and the spirit is dwelling [67:09] in me that that there is a [67:11] transformation that's happened in my [67:13] heart that the things I used to hate uh, [67:15] like God, like church, like reading the [67:17] Bible, I now love and the things I used [67:19] to love like my sin, I now hate. And, [67:22] uh, in that, friends, I have certainty [67:24] and you can have that same certainty. [67:25] So, if you haven't placed your faith in [67:26] Jesus, place your faith in Jesus. Get in [67:28] the scriptures. Get in his word. If you [67:30] don't know where to start, start in the [67:32] Gospel of John. Um, if you need a [67:34] reading plan, we have one available uh [67:36] for you guys on Logos Bible software [67:38] where I I put together a free uh 104 [67:41] week uh reading plan uh that you can get [67:44] with a free 60-day trial on Logos. Uh, [67:46] and this walks you through the entire [67:48] Bible in 104 weeks by uh combining Old [67:51] Testament, New Testament, Psalm, and [67:53] Proverb 5 days a week. So I you read [67:55] Monday through Friday. So I I this is [67:56] the the plan I I read every day. So it's [67:58] not too late to hop on this, get caught [68:00] up and uh and and and and join me on [68:03] that and keep leaning into God's word [68:06] and then also get connected to a good [68:07] local church. There's so many good local [68:09] churches on there. One of the things I [68:10] love is having different pastors come on [68:12] my channel um and highlighting different [68:14] ministries that I've gotten to visit or [68:16] pastors I personally know. So get [68:17] connected to a local church um and and [68:19] and start working out what God has [68:21] worked in. Now, similarly, when it comes [68:23] to the conversation around relics and uh [68:28] artifacts from antiquity, nothing gets [68:31] people talking more than the Shroud of [68:32] Trin, but also the Ark of the Covenant. [68:35] This is one of my sons and I's favorite [68:38] things to research. We've gone down all [68:40] the rabbit holes, and Wes Huff was [68:43] recently asked about the Ark of the [68:45] Covenant on Shawn Ryan podcast. Big [68:48] shout out to Sean Ryan, Jeremy, Laura, [68:50] the whole team over there. And uh this [68:53] part of the conversation was really [68:54] interesting because the Wes gives this [68:56] really dope simple synopsis of what the [68:59] Ark of the Covenant was, what it [69:00] entails, how it connects to the gospel [69:03] of Jesus, and uh I just love this entire [69:06] conversation. If you have not seen this, [69:07] go watch it. 1.5 million views in four [69:10] days. I love everything about this. [69:12] Let's check it out. [69:13] >> You brought up the Ark of the Covenant. [69:14] >> What is that? The ark of the covenant [69:16] was the presence of God on earth in the [69:19] Old Testament. So you have uh eventually [69:21] the temple being made or prior to that [69:23] is the tabernacle and then you have this [69:24] really interesting box that God tells [69:27] the Israelites to make and he says I'm [69:28] going to dwell with you with the [69:30] presence like the presence in the [69:31] garden. So you go all the way back to [69:33] Genesis chapter 1 and um Adam and Eve [69:36] are [69:37] have this communi communicative [69:39] relationship with God in very unique [69:40] way. One of the things I've really been [69:42] enjoying in Logos Bible software is [69:44] their new study assistant. And I can go [69:47] in and ask what was in the Ark of the [69:50] Covenant and give me the Bible verses to [69:53] support this. And based on just the [69:58] solid literature that's within Logos [70:00] Bible Software, it will condense this. [70:02] And so I remember in the Ark of the [70:03] Covenant, I believe it was the tablets [70:05] that God gave uh to Moses and Mana, I [70:09] think. So, let's see if I was right. Uh, [70:11] the Ark of the Covenant held three [70:12] primary items. The stone tablets uh [70:15] inscribed with the Ten Commandments, a [70:17] golden jar containing mana, and Aaron's [70:20] staff that had been miraculously budded. [70:23] Can't believe I didn't uh remember that. [70:24] However, when King Solomon dedicated the [70:26] temple, only the stone tablets remained [70:28] inside, suggesting uh the other items [70:32] were removed at some point during [70:34] Israel's history. Stone tablets were the [70:36] first items placed on the ark. And so [70:39] here it also so it gives us a breakdown [70:41] of everything when it was placed and [70:42] then it gives us all the verses right [70:44] which had the gold. So Hebrews 9:4 which [70:47] had the golden altar of incense and the [70:50] go a gold carved ark of the covenant. [70:52] This ark contained a gold jar of mana [70:54] and Aaron's staff um and the stone [70:57] tablets of the covenant and then tells [70:59] us this in first king there was nothing [71:01] in the ark except the two stone tablets [71:03] that Moses had placed in it. Okay. and [71:06] then Exodus, it explains it. So, this is [71:09] the beautiful part is you can see a [71:11] whole article dedicated to this. It give [71:13] you the source and all the Bible verses. [71:15] Anyway, um free 60-day trial. If you're [71:17] not on Logos Bible Software, you should [71:19] be free 60-day trial. And then after [71:21] that, I want to say the entry level [71:22] plan, which comes with this AI, is like [71:25] uh 12 bucks a month or 15 bucks a month. [71:27] So, I use Logos every day. My 60-day [71:29] plan is in there. West then goes back [71:30] into how God's presence was with Adam [71:34] and Eve in the garden. In fact, when [71:35] they eat of the fruit and they realize [71:38] their shame and their nakedness and they [71:40] hide, it says that they heard the Lord [71:42] God walking in the cool of the day. [71:44] >> And so, there's a presence there that's [71:46] tangible and real, but that, like I was [71:48] talking about before, that separation [71:49] from God, it's created a rift in that [71:51] relationship. And so, [71:54] there's there's the the rift has made [71:57] the proximity to God dangerous. And [72:00] eventually what you get in God's chosen [72:03] people, the Israelites, having that the [72:05] presence in God in the tabernacle and in [72:07] the temple, God says, "I'm going to [72:09] dwell with you, but you need to be [72:10] careful. You need to be careful with [72:11] this. So there's a particular way that [72:12] you're going to build this." [72:14] >> Yeah. I think it became dangerous [72:15] because God cannot have sinful people in [72:18] his physical midst. And so that's why [72:20] the ark is there to to to uh create a [72:23] barrier separation because prefall Adam [72:26] and Eve had access right to God. and [72:30] postfall there is the curse and all [72:32] these sorts of things that happen. And [72:34] so that's why I think that that when [72:35] when Wes says dangerous I think that's [72:37] what he's getting at [72:38] >> and I'm going to my presence my glory is [72:41] going to exist on the top of this box [72:43] and that's the ark of the covenant. Now [72:45] interestingly enough when Jesus comes [72:47] around John's gospel starts out right in [72:50] the beginning was the word and the word [72:51] was with God and the word was God. But [72:53] then in John 1:14 it says and the word [72:56] became flesh and made his dwelling among [72:58] us. And that word that we translate as [73:01] made his dwelling is actually the same [73:03] word that is used in the Greek [73:04] translation of the Old Testament [73:06] translated prior to Jesus for [73:08] tabernacled. [73:09] >> That is so cool. Okay, let's look at [73:11] John 1:14 and we can dig uh into the [73:17] Greek word. He says, "The word became [73:18] flesh and made his dwelling among us. We [73:21] have seen his glory and the glory of the [73:23] one and only son who came from the [73:24] father full of grace and truth." Okay, [73:26] so let's look up that word dwelling. [73:29] And the word dwelling in the original [73:30] Greek is [73:31] >> now remember Wes said that it is this [73:34] same word is used in the Greek version [73:36] of the old testament because the Greek [73:38] version was old testament was written in [73:41] Hebrew and then it was translated to [73:42] Greek New Testament of course is in [73:44] Greek and so he's saying this same word [73:46] was used in the Genesis account right or [73:49] in the tabernacle account okay so if we [73:52] look here dwelling live take up [73:55] residence shelter live and Then sure [73:58] enough, you see it, one of the ways that [74:01] it's used is tent or tabernacle. [74:03] >> Skyn, right? The etmology of it, the [74:06] root word of it, uh, tent [74:09] >> tabernacle. [74:11] >> Yeah, that's so interesting. So, the [74:14] etmology of it is connected to the word [74:16] for uh, tent and tabernacle and tent [74:19] maker, right? So, Jesus makes his [74:22] tabernacle, his tent, his is living his [74:25] settlement among us. That is such a dope [74:28] gem to pick up. And yeah, then you see [74:30] one of the cool things you see [74:31] everywhere else that word is used in the [74:34] New Testament. It's used three times. [74:36] John 1:14, Revelation, um it's uses the [74:40] word shelter, and Revelation 3:16, uh [74:43] dwelling place and those who live in [74:45] heaven, right? And then there's the [74:47] Greek versions of it, um laid out. Okay. [74:51] Yes. Again, big shout out to Logos Bible [74:52] Software, man. I love Logos. Okay, let's [74:55] uh jump back into this. So referring to [74:56] the tent that the ark of the covenant [74:58] which held the presence of God had. So I [75:00] think it's very overt. It would have [75:02] been far more overt to the Jewish [75:04] reader. [75:05] >> So some translations just say made his [75:06] presence u made his dwelling. There are [75:08] some translations that say tabernacled [75:10] among us. Um but I think the Jewish [75:13] reader who's reading the Greek there if [75:15] they were aware of the Greek translation [75:16] of the Old Testament would have [75:17] immediately thought [75:18] >> he's talking about God's presence. He's [75:20] talking about what was [75:22] >> dwelling over the ark of the covenant. [75:23] And guess what? God is with us again, [75:26] but it's in Jesus. [75:27] >> That's right. [75:28] >> Jesus is that presence. He's dwelling [75:29] with us. He's walking with us. He's in [75:31] the midst of his people. And that's what [75:33] ultimately, you know, in Revelation, in [75:34] the last book of the Bible, it says that [75:36] that's going to be there. That presence [75:38] is going to be there in the new heavens [75:39] and the new earth. And so, the ark of [75:42] the covenant was part of this old [75:45] covenantal system which is always meant [75:47] to point to something. And this is if [75:49] people are interested in this, reading [75:51] the book of Hebrews in the New [75:52] Testament, the whole theme is how all of [75:55] these things in the Old Covenant were [75:57] shadows cast by Jesus. [75:59] >> Yeah. The old Old Testament is [76:02] foreshadowing what's coming in the New [76:04] Testament. And the the New Testament is [76:07] often the fulfillment of the Old [76:10] Testament uh in in so many different [76:12] ways. And so it's yeah, they're [76:14] interconnected. And this is why like [76:16] it's good that we read the Old [76:17] Testament. You should be reading through [76:18] the Bible. I I advocate reading the [76:20] Bible. I'm reading it through it in two [76:21] years right now. You can read it through [76:22] a year, but if you got like 20, 30 [76:24] minutes a day. Yeah. Absolutely. [76:26] >> All of these things are fulfilled. You [76:27] like Moses, Jesus is the new Moses. You [76:29] like the priestly system, Jesus is the [76:30] priest who's never going to die. He's [76:32] always going to intercede on your [76:33] behalf. You like the angels, Jesus is [76:35] greater than the angels. You like the [76:36] temple, Jesus has fulfilled the temple. [76:39] You are now the presence of the Holy [76:40] Spirit. You are now the temple. So, it's [76:41] all of these things. It's an amazing [76:43] book in that way. and that it's talking [76:45] to Jews who are tempted to go back [76:47] >> to go back. They've been ostracized from [76:49] the pagan Greor Roman culture of their [76:51] day and now they're proclaiming Jesus as [76:53] the Messiah and they're being ostracized [76:54] by their Jewish communities as well. The [76:55] author of Hebrews says there's nothing [76:57] to go back to. [76:58] >> Don't be tempted. Jesus is the [76:59] fulfillment of all these things. Don't [77:01] go back to the shadows when you know [77:02] what casts. It's foolish. And ultimately [77:06] part of that is that you know that [77:08] presence of God in the tabernacle that [77:11] so there was a uh there was a curtain in [77:13] front of the holy of holies where the [77:15] ark of the covenant was in the temple [77:16] >> and in the gospels it says that when [77:18] Jesus died the temp the the the [77:21] um curtain was actually ripped into [77:23] >> and there's a symbolic meaning in there [77:25] in that the divide between the priests [77:27] who get to go into the holy of holies [77:30] once a year on yamapour on the day of [77:32] atonement. Well, now you that that [77:35] that's been that divide that's been [77:37] eradicated. [77:38] >> Y [77:38] >> because the author of Hebrews says you [77:40] have a priest who now intercedes on your [77:42] behalf where you can go into the Holy of [77:44] Holies in the presence of God. You can [77:45] talk to God directly. So that was a [77:46] long-winded answer. [77:47] >> Wow. [77:48] >> Yeah. I love that, man. One time for Wes [77:50] Huff. One time for Wes Huff. Now, what's [77:54] even cooler about that, and Wes was kind [77:55] of alluding to this in 1 Corinthians [77:57] 3:16, it says, "Don't you know that you [77:59] yourselves are God's temple and that [78:01] God's spirit dwells in your midst? If [78:04] anyone destroys God's temple, God will [78:06] destroy that person for God's temple is [78:07] sacred and you together are that [78:11] temple." So, we collectively as as as a [78:13] people of God are now God's temple. In [78:17] Ephesians uh chapter 2 21 it says in him [78:21] the whole building is joined together [78:24] and rises to become a holy temple in the [78:26] Lord. So this is talking about the local [78:27] church, right? The whole temple is [78:30] together and in him you two are being [78:32] built together to become a dwelling in [78:36] which God lives by his spirit. That we [78:39] collectively are a dwelling for God to [78:42] live in in the same way that he was in [78:44] the ark of the covenant that that we are [78:47] now that dwelling as the church for [78:50] God's spirit to live in. I I love how it [78:53] all beautifully connects and how much [78:54] there's so so much scripture and even if [78:56] we go back in here, we look up this word [78:58] dwelling. I think it's different than [78:59] the word that Wes pointed out in the [79:01] original, right? And so this is a [79:03] dwelling place, [79:06] >> right? A dwelling place. This is a a [79:08] location, a house of sorts that it goes [79:11] from a a a a box with God's spirit [79:14] dwelling to now we collectively are a [79:16] people in our place for God to dwell in. [79:19] And I I I love that passage. And what's [79:22] so awesome about that is is is God's [79:24] spirit isn't confined to a temple or a [79:26] building. We collectively as the people [79:30] of God carry God's temple here and now. [79:33] We collectively as the people of God [79:35] carry God's presence here and now. So [79:37] wherever we go, we now are are not just [79:40] image bearsers created in his image. [79:42] We're also carrying God's presence as as [79:45] his people, as his bride, as his church. [79:47] Right? And to me, that's a lot of what [79:49] we're trying to empower and equip people [79:51] to do is like in light of all the bad [79:53] things that are happening, in light of [79:55] the moral relativism, the the the decay, [79:58] the the the the cover up culture, all [80:01] these things that are happening, that we [80:03] would be recognize our role in this, [80:06] that we are to be uh the hands and feet [80:09] of Jesus, that we are to be the city on [80:12] a hill, the the the the light of the [80:14] world, right? And so I'm so uh grateful [80:18] for Wes going on there. But I also want [80:20] to make sure you guys know but Wes will [80:22] be with us at the Bless God Summit. [80:23] Again, link is pinned up in the comment [80:26] below. And this idea of us being the [80:28] light of the world is one of the things [80:29] I explore in my new book, Godly [80:31] Ambition, which if you guys haven't [80:33] picked it up, you should. It's [80:34] available. Signed copies are available [80:36] on blessgod.co, [80:38] but you can get it on Amazon for cheaper [80:40] or you can pick it up on Audible. And I [80:42] did write it and I do read uh the the [80:45] book myself on Audible. So if you don't [80:47] have it, go pick it up or get yourself a [80:48] signed copy. This is available over at [80:51] blesscgod.co. Uh godly ambition going [80:54] deeper on saying, "Hey, because we are [80:55] the people of God, because we have the [80:57] spirit of God, what is godly ambition [80:59] look like here and now. How do we make [81:00] the most of our time, talent, and [81:02] treasure? How do we actually make an [81:04] impact on this world instead of just [81:06] retreating and running from the world?" [81:08] Those are the themes that are being [81:09] discussed in godly ambition. And th [81:11] those are some of the things we'll be [81:12] discussing at the Bless God Summit. [81:13] Again, happening March 5th, 6th, and 7th [81:15] here in Oceanside. If you don't have [81:17] your tickets for this, get your tickets [81:18] now. VIP is completely sold out. We [81:21] still have some general admission [81:22] tickets left. Um, and we still have some [81:24] scholarships left. So, if you're local [81:25] to the area or if you can get yourself [81:27] here and cover your own travel and [81:29] lodging, we'll comp you a general [81:30] admission scholarship. You just got to [81:32] go apply for a scholarship and then get [81:33] a hold of me, shoot me a DM on Instagram [81:35] with all your information. And if you [81:37] can't make it, uh, we have virtual [81:38] tickets, okay? So, get your virtual [81:40] ticket. Wes Health will be speaking. Uh, [81:42] we have Glenn Scriber. We have an [81:44] amazing lineup. Mike Winger is going to [81:46] be there. KB and Amin from Southside [81:47] Rabbi. We just confirmed uh the artist [81:50] Jake is going to be there from Golden [81:52] Hour. If you guys aren't familiar with [81:53] Jake, he's coming. His brother Zach is [81:55] going to be there as well. Uh, it's [81:56] going to be a phenomenal event. So, you [81:57] can go to blessgodsummit.com, [81:59] get your tickets now. Go to blessgod.co, [82:02] get your uh virtual tickets. Thank you [82:04] so much for hanging out with me. [82:05] Hopefully uh this this video though it [82:07] started off probably pretty heavy with [82:08] the Bethl stuff ended up encouraging you [82:11] and blessing you uh to understand that [82:13] hey man ultimately our faith is in Jesus [82:16] and that Jesus established the church [82:18] and though certain churches can drift [82:20] and make mistakes and error that [82:23] ultimately our faith is in the Lord and [82:25] and how God moves through his people [82:27] today. So uh let me know your thoughts. [82:29] If you're new here, do me a favor, [82:30] subscribe to the channel. Hit that [82:32] subscribe button. Hit that like button. [82:33] Let me know where you're watching from. [82:34] I love hearing from you guys. And I will [82:36] be seeing you guys tomorrow. All right. [82:38] Peace.  ## 📺 Video ![](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZAGchFYFuU) --- # 📝 Full Notes (Deep-Read Analysis) # 🏷️ Title: The Bethel Situation Just Got Much Worse... ## 🧰 Action Inbox - [H1] Review third-party investigation protocols — church accountability #governance - [H2] Examine power dynamics in ministry relationships — clergy-congregant boundaries #theology - [H3] Analyze culture of honor theology implications — victim vs leader prioritization #ethics ## 🧭 Table of Contents - [📝 Summary](#-summary) - [📖 Main Content](#-main-content) - [🗒️ Notes](#️-notes) - [📚 References](#-references) - [🗣️ Paraphrase](#️-paraphrase) - [📰 Newsletter](#-newsletter) - [✅ Action Items](#-action-items) - [🧪 Hypotheses](#-hypotheses) - [📊 Methodology](#-methodology) - [❓ Questions](#-questions) - [🔮 Future Research](#-future-research) - [💡 Implications](#-implications) - [🧠 Learning Styles Assessment](#-learning-styles-assessment) - [📊 Accessibility Assessment](#-accessibility-assessment) - [🌍 DEIB Assessment](#-deib-assessment) - [✅ Logical Validity](#-logical-validity) - [🛡️ DARVO Analysis](#-darvo-analysis) - [🎯 Conclusion](#-conclusion) ### 🔗 References - [Wake Up and Win Podcast](URL) - [Faith Reframed Channel](URL) ## 📝 Summary - Bethel Church issued two statements regarding Ben Armstrong sexual misconduct allegations from 2008-2009 - Victims Sarah and Roseanne shared detailed accounts revealing grooming behavior and clergy sexual abuse - Armstrong was placed on administrative leave and Bethel initiated third-party investigation - Pattern of "culture of honor" theology appears to prioritize leader restoration over victim protection - Previous pattern includes incidents in late 1990s while working for Bill Johnson's brother ## 📖 Main Content Bethel Church faces mounting sexual misconduct allegations against senior leader Ben Armstrong, prompting administrative leave and third-party investigation. Two victims, Sarah and Roseanne, provided detailed accounts on the Wake Up and Win podcast describing grooming behaviors and inappropriate sexual contact that occurred while Armstrong was in positions of authority over young interns. The allegations reveal a concerning pattern spanning multiple decades. Armstrong previously committed similar acts while working for Bill Johnson's brother in the late 1990s, leading to his disqualification from ministry. Despite this history, Bethel hired him for the School of Ministry, giving him authority over young people again. Bethel's "culture of honor" theology, as promoted in books like "Unpunishable" by Daniel Silk, appears to prioritize leader restoration over victim protection. A resurfaced video shows Armstrong and church leadership framing the situation as a consensual affair, while victim Sarah describes classic grooming behaviors including inappropriate touching, sharing hotel rooms, and exploitation of power dynamics. ## 🗒️ Notes #### ⏱️ [00:00](https://youtu.be/aZAGchFYFuU?t=0) — [H1] Bethel releases two statements about Ben Armstrong - Key idea: Church acknowledges previous moral failure and launches investigation - Evidence: "Earlier that day at 11:10 Pacific time, we released a statement based on the information that we were aware of" #### ⏱️ [03:45](https://youtu.be/aZAGchFYFuU?t=225) — [H2] Pattern of misconduct spans multiple decades - Key idea: Armstrong had similar incidents in late 1990s before Bethel employment - Evidence: "Ben Armstrong did this when he went and worked for Bill Johnson's brother in Reading, California" #### ⏱️ [08:12](https://youtu.be/aZAGchFYFuU?t=492) — [H1] Sarah's account reveals grooming behaviors - Key idea: Victim describes unwelcome physical contact and boundary violations - Evidence: "Ben comes up behind me and hugs me unwelcomed and unexpectedly from behind" #### ⏱️ [12:30](https://youtu.be/aZAGchFYFuU?t=750) — [H2] Power dynamics create inability to consent - Key idea: Clergy positions inherently create power imbalances preventing true consent - Evidence: "The inherent authority of the clergy makes true consent nearly impossible" #### ⏱️ [15:45](https://youtu.be/aZAGchFYFuU?t=945) — [H1] Shared hotel room incident escalates - Key idea: Armstrong arranged shared accommodations and committed sexual assault - Evidence: "We're sharing a room, him and I, Ben and I... he comes back in from the bathroom and starts touching me inappropriately" #### ⏱️ [18:20](https://youtu.be/aZAGchFYFuU?t=1100) — [H2] Victim experiences freeze response - Key idea: Trauma responses prevent victims from resisting or reporting - Evidence: "I remember completely freezing and not knowing what to do... my responses are freeze and fawn" #### ⏱️ [22:15](https://youtu.be/aZAGchFYFuU?t=1335) — [H1] Culture of honor theology enables cover-ups - Key idea: Church doctrine prioritizes leader restoration over justice for victims - Evidence: "We referred to it over and over as the culture of honor" #### ⏱️ [25:40](https://youtu.be/aZAGchFYFuU?t=1540) — [H2] Armstrong framed as hero for staying - Key idea: Leadership praised perpetrator while minimizing victim experience - Evidence: "Most people run away... You're my heroes" #### ⏱️ [28:10](https://youtu.be/aZAGchFYFuU?t=1690) — [H1] Victim received minimal support - Key idea: Church failed to provide adequate care for sexual assault survivor - Evidence: "I don't recall them really helping me at all... they wanted me to disappear" #### ⏱️ [30:45](https://youtu.be/aZAGchFYFuU?t=1845) — [H2] Administrative leave and investigation announced - Key idea: Bethel takes corrective action after public pressure - Evidence: "We've placed Ben Armstrong on administrative leave... independent third-party investigation takes place" #### ⏱️ [35:20](https://youtu.be/aZAGchFYFuU?t=2120) — [H1] Multiple victims likely exist - Key idea: Public cases may represent larger pattern of misconduct - Evidence: "There are apparently people that are going to folks... and are sharing these stories" #### ⏱️ [38:55](https://youtu.be/aZAGchFYFuU?t=2335) — [H2] Moral relativism enables abuse - Key idea: Denying objective evil prevents accountability for harmful actions - Evidence: Discussion of Dr. John DeMartini's claims about victims attracting abuse ## 📚 References - [Wake Up and Win Podcast - Sarah Interview](URL) - [Wake Up and Win Podcast - Roseanne Interview](URL) - [Faith Reframed Channel - Jesse Westwood](URL) - [Culture of Honor by Danny Silk](URL) - [Unpunishable by Danny Silk](URL) ## 🗣️ Paraphrase - Bethel Church leader Ben Armstrong faces serious sexual misconduct allegations from multiple decades requiring investigation - Victims describe systematic grooming behaviors and power abuse that church leadership initially minimized as consensual affairs - Church's "culture of honor" theology appears to structurally protect leaders while marginalizing victims seeking justice ## 📰 Newsletter **Bethel Church Faces Reckoning Over Sexual Misconduct Allegations** The charismatic megachurch has placed senior leader Ben Armstrong on administrative leave following detailed victim testimonies revealing decades-long patterns of sexual abuse and institutional cover-up. Two brave survivors shared their stories publicly, describing classic grooming behaviors and exploitation of power dynamics. Their accounts challenge the church's previous framing of these incidents as consensual affairs. This crisis highlights critical questions about accountability structures in religious organizations and the theological frameworks that may inadvertently protect perpetrators while silencing victims. **Key Takeaways:** - Power dynamics in ministry relationships require clear boundaries and oversight - Victim-centered responses prioritize healing and justice over institutional reputation - Third-party investigations provide necessary independence for credible accountability **Resources:** - [GRACE (Godly Response to Abuse in Christian Environment)](https://netgrace.org/) - [Into Account - Church Abuse Survivors Network](https://intoaccount.org/) ## ✅ Action Items #### DevRel - Developer advocacy: Create resources on ethical leadership in tech communities - Education: Develop workshops on power dynamics and consent in professional relationships - Community management: Establish clear reporting mechanisms and response protocols #### OSPO - Policy & Governance: Review codes of conduct for power abuse prevention - Community Engagement: Partner with organizations addressing workplace harassment #### Community - Maintainers: Implement accountability structures and transparent governance - Contributors: Establish mentorship guidelines protecting vulnerable participants - Ecosystem: Share best practices for handling misconduct allegations #### WordPress - Community: Review WordCamp speaker vetting and incident response procedures - Training: Develop content on ethical leadership and community safety - Documentation: Create guidelines for handling abuse reports in open source #### The WPCC - Programs: Ensure fellowship programs include ethics training and accountability - Projects: Develop governance frameworks preventing power abuse - Funding: Require grantees to maintain ethical standards and reporting mechanisms #### FAIR - Policies: Establish transparent misconduct reporting and investigation procedures - Governance artifacts: Include abuse prevention in organizational charters ## 🧪 Hypotheses - Religious authority structures without external accountability enable abuse patterns - "Culture of honor" theology systematically protects leaders over victims - Public pressure through alternative media forces institutional accountability - Pattern recognition across multiple incidents reveals systematic failures ### 📊 Methodology - Comparative analysis of church discipline procedures across denominations - Longitudinal study of abuse reporting and institutional responses - Survey research on power dynamics in religious leadership relationships ### ❓ Questions - How can religious organizations balance grace and justice in misconduct cases? - What structural changes prevent institutional protection of perpetrators? - How do theological frameworks influence abuse reporting and response? ### 🔮 Future Research - Effectiveness of third-party investigations in religious contexts - Long-term impacts of "culture of honor" theology on abuse prevention - Comparative study of accountability mechanisms across faith traditions ### 💡 Implications - Practice: Religious leaders need training on power dynamics and appropriate boundaries - Policy: Churches require independent oversight mechanisms for misconduct allegations - Security: Vulnerable populations need protection from institutional power abuse - Education: Seminary curricula should include ethics and accountability frameworks - Funding: Donors may reconsider support for organizations with inadequate safeguards ### 🧠 Learning Styles Assessment Reading level estimate: 10th grade #### 👀 Visual learners - Present: Video testimonies, organizational charts showing power structures - Improve: Timeline graphics, infographics on warning signs of abuse #### 🔊 Aural learners - Present: Podcast format, victim testimonies, recorded statements - Improve: Expert commentary audio, survivor story summaries #### 🗣️ Verbal learners - Present: Detailed victim accounts, theological terminology definitions - Improve: Analogies comparing power dynamics to workplace relationships #### 🧩 Kinesthetic learners - Present: Step-by-step investigation timeline, action items for reform - Improve: Interactive checklists for identifying red flags, role-playing scenarios #### 🧠 Logical learners - Present: Pattern analysis across multiple cases, cause-and-effect relationships - Improve: Decision trees for reporting procedures, statistical analysis of outcomes #### 🧑‍🤝‍🧑 Social learners - Present: Community discussion, support group dynamics - Improve: Facilitated discussion guides, peer support resources #### 🧘‍♀️ Solitary learners - Present: Personal reflection prompts, individual victim accounts - Improve: Journaling exercises for processing, self-assessment tools #### 🌿 Naturalistic learners - Present: Systemic analysis of organizational ecosystems - Improve: Metaphors comparing healthy vs. toxic institutional cultures ### 📊 Accessibility Assessment #### Screen reader semantics - Present: Clear heading structure, descriptive video content - Improve: Detailed alt text for graphics, transcript availability #### Keyboard navigation - Present: Standard video controls, logical tab order - Improve: Skip links for lengthy testimonies, keyboard shortcuts #### Contrast and readability - Present: High contrast video player, readable font sizes - Improve: Customizable contrast options, font size controls #### Text resizing and reflow - Present: Responsive video embed, scalable text - Improve: Optimized layout at 200% zoom, preserved functionality #### Media and captions - Present: Video with audio content - Improve: Closed captions for all video content, transcript downloads #### Forms and interactions - Present: Basic video interaction controls - Improve: Accessible reporting forms, clear error messaging ### 🌍 DEIB Assessment #### Cultural breadth - Present: American evangelical context primarily - Improve: Global perspectives on religious accountability, cross-cultural examples #### Inclusive language - Present: Victim-centered terminology, trauma-informed language - Improve: Avoid denominational jargon, provide context for religious terms #### Neurodiversity support - Present: Structured presentation, clear headings - Improve: Content warnings for trauma material, digestible segments #### Representation - Present: Multiple victim voices, diverse survivor experiences - Improve: Include male survivors, various religious backgrounds #### Psychological safety - Present: Respectful treatment of survivors, trigger warnings - Improve: Resources for trauma support, crisis intervention contacts ### ✅ Logical Validity #### Strong reasoning - Inductive strength: Pattern recognition across multiple decades and victims supports systematic abuse claims - Causal reasoning: Power dynamics and institutional protection create conditions enabling continued abuse - Analogical strength: Parallels to other institutional abuse cases provide context #### Fallacies - Ad hominem: Some attacks on church leadership character rather than addressing systemic issues - False dilemma: Framing as either supporting victims or defending faith, rather than both possible #### Tone of voice - Overall tone: Serious and analytical with appropriate gravity for sensitive subject matter ### 🛡️ DARVO Analysis - Deny: Initial church statements minimized allegations as consensual affairs - Attack: Limited direct attacks on accusers, more subtle victim-blaming - Reverse victim/offender: Armstrong portrayed as hero for staying, victims characterized as choosing different path - Emotional cues: Language emphasizing leader restoration over victim justice ## 🎯 Conclusion The Bethel Church case illustrates how theological frameworks can either enable or prevent institutional abuse. The "culture of honor" emphasis on leader restoration appears to have systematically marginalized victims while protecting perpetrators. Third-party investigation and administrative leave represent positive steps, but deeper cultural and theological reforms may be necessary to prevent future abuse and properly care for survivors. ## 🧱 Refactor Appendix ### 📚 Literature Split Pad ### [L1] Power dynamics prevent true consent in clergy relationships > [!quote] The Bethel Situation Just Got Much Worse by Mike Signorelli via YouTube. Published 2024. Accessed 2024-12-22. > "The inherent authority of the clergy makes true consent nearly impossible as the victim may feel pressured, obligated, or fearful." Core principle for understanding clergy sexual abuse dynamics and institutional responses. [view highlight](https://youtu.be/aZAGchFYFuU?t=750#L1) #theology #ethics ID:rw_001 ### [L2] Culture of honor theology prioritizes leader restoration > [!quote] The Bethel Situation Just Got Much Worse > "We referred to it over and over as the culture of honor... prioritizing leaders and people who are gifted over folks who are just everyday normal folks." Systematic theological framework that may enable institutional protection of abusers. [view highlight](https://youtu.be/aZAGchFYFuU?t=1335#L2) #theology #abuse ID:rw_002 --- ### 🔖 Atomic Split Pad (Zettel Candidates) #### [Z1] Trauma responses prevent victim resistance - Freeze and fawn responses common in power abuse situations - Timestamp: 18:20 victim testimony - Links: --- # 📄 Full Transcript *Auto-generated from YouTube captions · timestamps roughly every 30 seconds · [watch on YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZAGchFYFuU)* **[00:00]** The Bethl situation just got worse. They released two statements this weekend. Two different uh victims from about 15 years ago came out and they even said one of the statements at the service Sunday and are launching another third party investigation or perhaps this is the first official third party investigation to this whole situation. Okay, so I got to send a big shout out to the Wake Up and Win podcast. They actually sat down with both of these folks who uh Bethl released the **[00:32]** statements about and talked to both of them. The most alarming by far, which we're going to look at here in a second, is the conversation with Sarah. Uh and this is publicly confirmed regarding Ben Armstrong. And I'm going try to explain this to you guys as best as I can. But then there's also this one with a different young lady. So, this first video came out in September 4th, and this is a lady named Roseanne. She was under Ben Armstrong's leadership, and it was alleged that there were some grooming activities that happened here. **[01:04]** And then, uh, this over the weekend, another video came out with the actual woman named Sarah, who Beth was openly acknowledged had what they framed as an affair with Ben Armstrong. Okay, so this is the statement that again, two statements over the weekend. I'm going to read you guys the first and then I'll we'll look at the one from Sunday morning and I'll try to kind of explain where and how all of this has happened. Okay, so this is from Bethl uh first update. It says in early February 2026, we were made aware of an accusation from **[01:34]** 2008 2009 involving Ben Armstrong and a former BSSM student. This would have taken place prior to a known failure in 2009 for which Ben publicly uh repented was removed from ministry and walked through a multi-year healing restoration process to process board's fruit of repentance which is still evident today. The sad part about this is uh they did content about it. There was a book written about it called unpunishable. This ties into their culture of honor stuff. And man, if this was something **[02:07]** that actually caused Ben to not repeat this offense cuz he had done it in the '9s, uh, and then again in 2008, 2009, and hasn't happened since. Um, but it was just kind of covered up and minimized. How tragic is it to have all this stuff dug up and now be put on administrative leave, uh, with with this all coming out recently, right? That again this points to the deeper culture of what seems to be cover up at the very **[02:38]** le least just being kind of oblivious to grooming to clergy SA to all these different things that contributed to everything that's now coming out from Bethl. Um currently Ben and Heather's connection and family is very strong as is their connection uh with us and trust with us. We have deeply valued their ministry with us. We have no reports or accusations of being of Ben being inappropriate with anyone else since the moral failure 16 years ago. Regardless, we take uh allegations and concerns reported to us seriously. This is being **[03:09]** addressed with fresh eyes as our leadership team listens to this additional account and revisits our previous process. And by the way, uh, if it's Sarah, if it's Roseanne, I do hope that because I do believe there's good people over at Bethl, and I do hope that they're engaging with this third party investigation that Bethl is setting forth. Um, because I do think this stuff is important to to to help them reflect on how they seemingly fumbled this situation. We are taking time to reflect, uh, seek counsel, and learn how we can more fully walk in truth, **[03:40]** accountability, compassion, restoration. We are reviewing this with a more informed understanding of appropriate interactions and relationships between leaders and congregants and the power dynamics and resulting responsibilities that may factor in these interactions. That's the key there. The power dynamics. Why is that important? Well, when this happened, I don't know if the idea of clergy was something that was even prevalent. Like this is language I've heard recently, but the the the element here is truth that there's a power dynamic between someone in a position of **[04:11]** leadership um and someone that's a congregant or an intern or in this second situation that we're talking about with Sarah was living with them. There's a massive power disparity. And so uh this is probably to Bethl's ignorance and most people's ignorance not something that was often talked about in 2008 2009. uh but now as people became more trauma informed and they understand how this sorts of stuff works especially with vulnerable women that it is something that is not just an affair the way it was framed. Okay. Uh we are **[04:42]** also reviewing the process and pastoral care to ensure our response to victims reflect compassion, integrity and support. Our priority is to ensure a safe respectful power and uh supportive environment for everyone. We are committed to thoroughess and integrity as this new way forward continues. So that's the first statement that was put out over the weekend. Again, that's in regards to the conversation that happened several weeks ago. So, we're going to look at some of this conversation with Sarah. Uh Bethl then made a second statement and I believe **[05:13]** this second statement is what they read from the Sunday morning platform. Uh Ben Farley read this statement uh immediately after giving and and again the the bizarre thing in all this is that Ben Armstrong is the one who gave the offering time when Be Bethl issued their apology. So it's just interesting that they didn't even really read the room in some of the stuff that been rumbling about Ben Armstrong. And again the tragic part is like man if this dude hasn't done anything since the cover up **[05:45]** is what makes all of this worse. Okay. So, this is the statement put out uh by Bethl from their service yesterday. >> It's good to see you. And as the offering is going around and then uh just before Richie comes up to preach and speak, got an important update for you and I need to I need to be really clear. So, I'm going to read it to you. And I realize it's about a situation that some of you may be aware of or not be aware of. So, I'm going to read this to you. On February 13, 2026, we became aware of a video containing serious allegations of clergy pertaining to Ben Armstrong **[06:15]** about the events that took place in 2009. Earlier that day at 11:10 Pacific time, we released a statement based on the information that we were aware of at the time and our understanding of Ben's lived repentance since that time. However, in light of these pre new and previously unknown allegations, we've placed Ben Armstrong on administrative leave, and he'll not be ministering while an independent third-party investigation takes place. >> This step forward is not a verdict, but a necessary measure intended to reflect **[06:46]** the care and sobriety with which we approach matters uh of this nature and our desire to operate with transparency and truth. We are currently reaching out to those who've been brought who've brought these allegations to light and we are actively engaging outside counsel and independent experts to ensure thorough impartial and traumainformed processes. We are committed to health and accountability as we pursue spiritual, physical, and emotional safety across our entire organization. I recognize that an update like that can stir emotions and again I want to be available today. The senior leadership **[07:16]** team will be in the room today if you'd like to pray with us or speak with us or need pastoral support and uh after the service. But we'll have ongoing communication about this. Our very own Richie Gordon is coming now to preach. >> That's a statement. And I watched some of Richie Gordon's talk, by the way, and he he acknowledged that, you know, hey, Beth was in a storm and this is not to mitigate victims and folks who have experienced this sort of stuff. So I from what I've heard of his Storman, I probably checked about 15 minutes of it. I I've actually really enjoyed Richard Gordon and it seems like he's hopefully one of the younger guys on the senior **[07:47]** leadership team that's kind of moving towards some of this reform that I hope is happening. Okay, so this is this is this is heavy stuff. So I'm glad they made the statement. They're taking steps in the right direction, putting Ben Armstrong on on administrative leave. Uh they are uh hiring a third party investigation which I you know if those you guys have been keeping up with me I've been telling Chris via Instagram Chris Valatin who does read my DMs and I don't know if he's reading it or someone else is reading it but I think it's him cuz I you know he probably doesn't know **[08:19]** that he could see that I could read his DMs because he's an older gentleman and I've been telling them from the beginning like hey just do a third party investigation so that someone else can step in and look at what's been going on because this is not these aren't just single situations. They're part of what seems to be a bigger cultural issue, right? And I'm going to I'm going to do my best to demonstrate that to you guys here in a second. Uh because there's a kind of a smoking gun in this uh video that **[08:51]** started resurfacing and it was it was the unpunishable conversation that Daniel Silk had. And Daniel Sils also released a couple statements. some of them kind of seemingly minimizing them, some of them not. And he's kind of known as this guy that goes around and uh helps other PE churches clean up their mess as like a consultant of sorts. I'm not quite sure exactly what he's doing, but that but that that is something that he's spoken out about with regards to Culture of Honor and Punishable, which by all measurable count seems to what have enabled some of this sort of stuff. So, **[09:22]** this is the clip that I think uh that it got resurfaced and started doing it rounds and started getting passed around that I think really frustrated a lot of people. And this has been Armstrong talking about the situation with Sarah that from his vantage point and from the painting of this seems like it was just a consensual affair. Well, you know, with Sarah now coming out and going on the Wake Up and Win podcast, it seems like it's very different than what is being portrayed. And this is a bit of her retelling all of the weird grooming stuff that happened in the situation. **[09:54]** Um, there's a moment where she talks about them being blood brothers and taking a blood oath, which is just weird. Uh, you guys should, if you're interested, really go watch this full conversation. There's also another moment where there's uh grooming happening, forced touch. But then I'll play you guys the parts that I think are like anybody who is sensible and sees a man who's married in his 30s with an intern between the ages of 21 and 22 living with him and doing this sort of behavior that's described **[10:25]** here. Um this is not just seemingly and allegedly this does not seem like just in a uh a consensual uh affair in in in an adultery situation. Okay. So this is her kind of retelling the first instant. They would also they there was also in where they like slept on the trampoline together and being in close proximity and sleeping together was very common and not not sleeping together but sleeping near each other seems to have been semi- common because she viewed them as her family and apparently that is not what was viewed. So, I'll play some of this. You know, trigger warning, **[10:57]** this this stuff is pretty dark, and it just kind of shows you that uh his his mindset uh around how this all cultivated to eventually boundaries being crossed. >> My memory, my first memory is me in the kitchen. I'm making a sandwich. I think I'm going to go hang out at the girls house or with some friends. Um it's afternoon cuz it's very light in the house. And I'm making a sandwich on the cutting board. I remember my back is to the wall to the rest of the kitchen. Ben comes up behind me and hugs me unwelcomed and unexpectedly from behind and it's like a very close um hug and I **[11:30]** like now that I understand trauma after you know being in therapy and having licensed professionals help me to see these things I understand now that my trauma response is very much freeze and very much fawn. So that means I freeze up. So that is the first part where it it I mean the blood oath, the sleeping on a trampoline together is weird. This is where it's like no man ever hugs any woman like this. Uh that's in my opinion that's not his wife. It's it's just weird. Um and so they go **[12:01]** on and um she explains a bit more. Bla1 chimes in. This is uh Christina and Blaze. They they've done a great job of of talking to some of these victims. They have a podcast kind of highlighting some of this sort of stuff and they've done an amazing job documenting this. >> I remember being angry um and like not knowing what to do. He's hugging me very uncomfortably. His son then walks in the kitchen and he drops me and leaves the room and I was like, "What the heck?" I remember being frozen and being like, "I'm angry. I need to leave right now." So, I grab my sandwich. I grab my stuff. I remember being really mad at him, like **[12:31]** maybe giving him a dirty look and then going to the girls house and telling some of my girlfriends. I had at this girl's house I had moved out of, I had three really good friends and I remember telling them what happened and they were like, "Girl, that's weird. You need to tell Scott who was one of my other mentors." >> And so this is all kind of coming out and they're having to make an additional statement uh because people are are sharing their stories and there's potentially more. There seems to be more according to to the Bethl alumni groups that this chatter is happening on from here. Again, it just it it keeps **[13:02]** escalating. This is the first like overt essay type situation. >> Tell us what happened um with the Scottish Games incident and just how that ended up taking place. >> Okay, so [sighs] yeah, I was going to the Scottish games of his family. This is like different Scottish clans go and you do like traditional Scottish games and bag pipes and the whole shebang, but they have kids. There's a bunch of people staying there. Um, we're I find out when we get there we're sharing a room, him and I, Ben and I. >> Okay, so that's that that's really **[13:33]** weird. And I'm not sure I'm not sure how that something like that even happens, right? Like this is this is just Yeah. >> Um, which I'm like, okay, that's like a little bit weird. like maybe I should tell >> the family set that up or um >> or maybe Ben told told the family like, "Hey, we can just stay in a room together." Nobody knows. But you show up and there's a bunk bed and that's your room with Ben apparently. >> Yeah, I do remember thinking this is a little bit weird. Maybe I should mention this to his wife, but I'm sure they all know. And then I just like things got **[14:03]** busy and I dismissed it. Um as I mentioned before and have given an example of how like us being that close in proximity, even sleeping near each other was normalized and seemingly okay. I feel fine. Like this is a dad type figure to me. Um, I'm not in love with this man. I don't want to be physical with this man. So, I'm staying I'm sleeping on the top bunk. The bottom bunk has been moved over to the wall. So, we're not sleeping next to each other, but we're in the same room on different beds. I remember him getting up to use the bathroom and I was awake. I It was summertime. It was very hot. I'm an athlete and I was wearing a sports bra and like basketball shorts or **[14:34]** whatever because it was hot and I was trying to cool down to sleep. He leaves the room. The light shines on me as he like opens the door and I'm like, "Oh no, he's going to see me." And then he comes back in from the bathroom and starts touching me inappropriately. And I remember completely freezing um and not knowing what to do and not stopping it because I didn't really know how to and I didn't want to make things seem awkward or like like I said, my responses are free and fun. And that's exactly what I did in that moment. >> Yeah. And so, uh that is the first instance where like an act like the hug **[15:06]** was already weird, the blood was really weird. Then you have that situation. And um here's the definition of clergy essay. It's defined as any unwanted or non-consensual s act behavior or exploitation committed by a member of the clergy against a person under their pastoral care. It is primarily understood as a grave abuse of power and trust where the perpetrator uses their position of authority, spiritual influence or as a counselor to manipulate or coersse a congregant minor **[15:39]** or vulnerable adult. Okay. Uh and you know one of the things it points out is the betrayal of of trust but also the power imbalance. The inherent authority of the clergy makes true consent nearly impossible as the victim may feel pressured, obligated, or fearful of divine or social repercussions. So, she talks about how in these situations, she's freezing, and then there's stuff that's escalating. And so, when it all comes out, she ends up taking hyper responsibility and it's framed and twisted as a consensual affair, right? **[16:11]** Missing some of these idiosyncrasies in a dynamic like this. He's touching me. I don't remember everything, but ultimately we wind up I He pulls me down and I'm in the bed with him. We never had we never kissed, but boundaries were crossed. At this time in my life, purity is very important to me. >> So, she talks about that and then it happens again and it and and they explain that situation where his wife is gone. She says, he basically says, "Come over like all time sake." At this point, she's moved out. She's not living there. Come over like all time's sake. Hanging **[16:42]** with the kids. The kids aren't there. and it happens another time. And the fallout and how all of this was handled in my opinion is is pretty pretty devastating um in terms of just acknowledging there's a there's a there's a power dynamic. Now, what's brutal about this is that within a uh I want to say a yearish, he was reinstated. Like he was disciplined, but then he was reinstated. And the way they talked about her in this in this video that resurfaced is pretty **[17:14]** pretty bad because it it made her take the brunt of this entire debacle that happened. If you guys want to watch the full thing, I don't I I I I don't I don't have the the stomach to keep going over the the details of the essay. Um but if you guys want to, you can and go check out their full podcast. and then she explains how it all folded uh came out after the fact and and kind of her being uh framed in a way that I I would argue is not very accurate. Okay, so this video right here is recently **[17:45]** resurfaced how a culture of honor works, a conversation with the Armstrongs. Um, and the way this is framed in the book Unpunishable and Culture of Honor, I think speaks to the deeper stuff that has been going on with regards to how they they view these things and um, not prioritizing the violation that the victim experienced over the reinstatement of the leader. Okay. Um, and so Daniel opens up with this clip and then we'll **[18:15]** we'll we'll cut back to another version of this and then we'll look at something Mike Winger put out recently. How will people ever learn from their mistakes if we don't punish them? And isn't it human nature to punish people who fail? You were surrounded by a supporting cast >> in the leadership and the way this whole situation was handled. Uh we referred to it over and over as the culture of honor and uh there's a lot of dynamics that go to that. People watching this are familiar with that. Uh you are the living examples of of that process happening. Why do you think you didn't? **[18:47]** >> Yeah. So, this this clip ends up resurfacing. Everyone's talking about it. Uh they reference it in their conversation with Sarah, this part specifically, which is framed as if, you know, hey, Sarah's still around, but she decided to go a different path. And um yeah, it's it's not good. >> Offered her all the same support and services. You guys are obviously trying to save a whole family and you jumped in with both feet and she you know she took a different path than you guys did, but **[19:18]** she's still she's still in our environment. >> What do you make of that statement? >> Um I just listened to that recently too and that was like infuriating and just painful. Um yeah, it's I don't feel that that is true. I think that that's a lie. Uh Ben had been around these people since he was 3 years old from the beginning of Waverville and Bethl's like origin story. So, I just felt like I was like outnumbered and I felt like they had all surrounded him and it felt very unsafe for me to be like, "Hey, I need help, too." I felt like they were trying to make me disappear. They didn't know **[19:49]** what to do with me. >> And I do believe that they think they were doing the right thing. Um, especially given that I kind of took a lot of the responsibility on originally and blame. I kind of began with that, like, you know, this is all my fault. I don't want them to lose their jobs. I don't want to hurt anybody, but I need to make this right. Uh, I don't recall them really helping me at all. In fact, it's a very like dark time for me where I just feel so alone and I start like deciding to like push people away and just keep the right people close to me. I remember them just feeling like they **[20:19]** wanted me to disappear. So, I intentionally got a job at the coffee shop. Um, everything in me wanted to leave and run away. I think a lot of people would have done that, but I remember telling myself, "No, this is my home, too." Like, this is [clears throat] my faith, my dreams, my family. This is all I know. To go back to that, I was talking to my friend um about this like you know what support did they give me after we watched Danny's podcast with Ben from like seven or eight years ago and he says that he offered me the same support but I chose a different path. That's not true. Um I thought it was pretty short after but my friend reminded me that it was over a year later where I was in a church service and Danny preached on shame and **[20:50]** I was balling because I have so much shame. Um I have all of this like institutional abuse and like confusion and I I wind up approaching Danny and being like I have all this shame. I don't know what to do. I'm not healing. I'm stuck. And he's like, well, what do you what do you want us to do? And I'm like, I guess I was hoping for them to like pull me into some community. Um, and I was like, well, clearly like it doesn't feel like you want me here. And I was like, there's this ministry, these people go to Bethl, but they had their own healing ministry outside of Bethl. They're I think actually licensed counselors. Um, and it was like a **[21:21]** three-day intensive, but I couldn't afford it. And I told Danny I wanted to do it. And Danny and Sher paid for me to go to that. I believe that I can remember that's the only thing they did for And it wasn't until I sought them out over a year later for support. >> Like I want to mention something that they said on this podcast and I'll actually play this clip as well right here. >> This girl is working in the coffee shop. >> Yeah. And >> where you go every day >> and where I meet with my students all the time >> and your children cross paths >> and they attend the school. >> Most people run away. >> Most people call a fresh start. >> Yeah. >> Most people won't face the maturity **[21:53]** required of a mess like this. >> Yeah. So again, you know, I I keep coming back to you're my heroes. >> You're my hero. >> Oh my gosh. You're my heroes. Oh, this is this is so so wanting to see everything through rosecolored glasses that that these people sound borderline delusional to me with the way this is framed. Like this is so frustrating to listen to. I saw that interview and I was like, "Oh man, this is bad." had. **[22:23]** And I had a feeling I had a feeling that that clip, especially as it started getting passed around, was was going to be what what made this entire situation worse for them because again, now we're not pointing to just Shawn Bolts and some of the other folks that were potentially knowing and covered up, which which to Beth's credit they fess up to. But now you're talking about a pattern, a system that just doesn't seem to get it, unfortunately. And I thought it's so interesting that just before he **[22:55]** tells them how great they are for staying, he mentions that you're still there at the coffee shop. >> This girl is working in the coffee shop where you go every day, but she's still she's still in our environment to this day. >> And it's almost like a leadership blind spot in this culture of honor. By the way, at the beginning of that interview, he says that they are an example of the culture of honor. >> We're going to talk about really the fruit of the approach in a culture of honor >> and how it really set you up to succeed. We refer to it over and over as the culture of honor and >> culture of honor. Uh the downstream effects of the seems to **[23:26]** be culture of honor which is a book Daniel Silk pulled out put out uh unpunishable which is a book he put out talking about this exact thing. I think I think the the Culture of Honor book came out, then this happened, then uh Unpunishable came out, and they're they're like bragging about this stuff. Like they this is, you know, they they think this is good. And again, is is this a blind spot or is this something that is just is a part of their DNA and needs to be reformed? I I don't know. I **[23:56]** don't know. But um man, it's all seemingly hitting the fan at once. Now, here is the good news. news. The good news is that he was put on administrative leave. Like that's awesome, right? Um good news is that the third party investigator, right? The bad news is this does not seem to just be isolated cases. Let's just say there was Shawn BS. Let's say there was the other guy who was talking to women that Bethl said don't talk to. Let's say uh they've they fumbled by covering it up. the the issue with the Ben Armstrong situation **[24:27]** and again it sucks because if this is now coming out but perhaps he's been solid for the past 15 years and this is the last time this happened. What sucks is this. Ben Armstrong did this when he went and worked for Bill Johnson's brother in Reading, California. This is all according to Jesse Westwood who's also a Bethl alumni. Uh Faith Reframed is his channel. They're all from Weaverville. All these folks are from the same area which is a mountain town about 45 minutes from Reading. Ben Armstrong goes works for Bill Johnson's brother at a church plant in Reading, **[25:00]** California. This happens to with a different affair he had. We don't know if it was the same power dynamics or whatever, but this happens in the late 90s in, you know, nine years later. He's working construction because he's clearly disqualified himself for ministry working with Bill Johnson's brother. Bill Johnson's the quote unquote apostle uh of of Beth, although he's never officially called himself that. That's his function. So all these people it's a tight-knit community. Then they re they they hire him to Bethl for the school of ministry giving him **[25:31]** authority um over young interns and young people. So you have this situation that happens in the late 90s. Then fast forward to 2008 2009 he gets this job. Then this happens again. And then uh there's a situation before this happens which is the other lady that came out who uh alleged that she was being groomed and then this happened. And so it's like I is are these just whoopsy daisy uh isolated instances or has there been something deeper that has **[26:03]** positioned a a a restoration culture but that's really been catapulted into a protection culture. Right? That's that's the deeper question. So when whether charismatic ecosystems self-p police or self preserve, this is the the deeper issue is that if you don't self-p police and you don't hold yourself accountable and you just self-preserve, these things will eventually come out, right? Especially in today's climate, right? Especially in today's climate. And when you have authority, when you have **[26:34]** spiritual authority, um you that that also comes with responsibility. And when you have responsibility, that also comes to like you you can't you you you can't be the the hub of the charismatic movement and all these things are happening and not have your ducks in a row and understand the weight and power and responsibility that you carry. The truth of something has to come before the the the the need to restore the leader every single time. And so it's it's all it's all seemingly coming out within several weeks of each other. And **[27:05]** now Bethl's issuing, you know, the the initial statement where they repented. Now there's two more statements that are coming out. There's a third party involved. Uh Daniel Silk has issued a statement. So how much of this is just incompetence and how much of this is such a degree of delusion and naivity where you are now you have multiple situation. This is just what's public. Who knows what else has happened. And I'm not saying I know any credible instances, but there are apparently people that are going to folks like Jesse um from the Faith **[27:36]** Reframed channel and are sharing these stories to him and there's potentially a lot more there, right? Um now again to juxtapose this when these situations happen and they do happen. That's the tragic part is like people are going to be evil and sinful. That that's the reality of the situation. But when these situations happen at other churches, typically what happens and should happen is you immediately go through the proper channels. And if there's a crime that's been committed, you go to the authorities. If there hasn't been a crime committed, but it's consensual, you you go and by the way, clergy is a **[28:08]** crime in a good amount of states now. That's a relatively recent thing. You go and deal with it, right? Like you deal with it and you make sure that people are held accountable. Um, so all of this is so so grieving um and even hard to to talk about it because these are real people's lives being impacted. And if Ben Armstrong actually uh kind of told himself this tale that this was really an affair and hasn't, you know, sinned in this way since then and now this is **[28:39]** all being dug up and now this is going this is going to bring harm to his wife who he probably, you know, also gas lit in this situation, his kids. This is this is this is a massive mess that is being made because the foundations were on property line because folks were chasing prophetic culture instead of God's truth in terms of how do you deal with an elder who falls in this way. Right? Uh Mike Winger put out this statement which I thought was good. Bethl announcement about one of their senior leadership team. He says, "I do **[29:09]** not think they were unaware of allegations of grooming and what uh looks like SA or Clare GSA previously called an affair. At least I don't think the whole leadership team was unaware. Perhaps some of them. Jesse Westwood, who I just reigned from Faith Were Framed, and Bla1 uh from Wake Up and Win have both done videos on this recently. Uh there's definitely more to this story than the letter implies." And this is uh the one that they read from uh from the pull pit. I thought uh this meme wonderfully **[29:42]** summarizes why we're doing this. Spencer Dalton writes podcasters forcing Bethl to look at their coverup culture. And it's this meme where you he's forcing this lady to see this. And yeah, I think uh I think in light of all this stuff, there seems to have been a pattern. And that pattern is now being exposed. And I'm not saying that in a derogatory sense. I mean like what was beneath the surface has been brought to the surface and people are finally starting to see it **[30:14]** for what it is. And that doesn't take away from any of the good things that people have experienced at Bethl. But it's a deeper question on the idea, can systems like this survive exposure like this, right? Because at the end of the day, justice matters because victims matter. because the Sarah matter and the Jubilees matter and their experience matters and I'm watching I mean so many more folks are finally coming out and saying hey I got this word and it derailed the trajectory of my life and I wish somebody would have told me right **[30:45]** ultimately when these situ situations happen matters because leaders are still image bearsers and they are capable of repentance that's that's outside of the allegations the institutional processes but there's a human dignity here that um we don't we don't want to diminish that Bethl can repent in this and and seemingly has gone in the right direction. We don't want to diminish the fact that u there probably will need to be restitution in some of this. Um and **[31:16]** and none of this is to say that I'm anti-Holy Spirit or I'm anti- the gifts of the spirit. Um but I am pro- light. Step in the light. I am protruuth. show the truth when these things get mitigated and and and and brushed under the rug. Um it just will make things worse. And so like a part of me, and you guys might think this is crazy, but a part of me feels for Ben Armstrong's family and and potentially where he's at. He might be in a great place today, **[31:47]** but because this stuff was swept under the rug for a decade plus and framed as this consensual affair when really there was a pattern of Clare GSA, now his entire life is being uprooted. Now he's on under administrative leave. Now there's this investigation that's going to happen with the third party and these these victims are going to get revisited and there's going to be more calls with the senior leadership team. and and and I think there's probably awesome people that are on the senior leadership team, especially the younger folks. I've had a a bit of an interaction with with some **[32:19]** of them um or or one of them, and I don't want to get into too many details, but there seems like there's some awesome people here, right? But the bigger question in all this is is a question about culture, a question about the customs, the norms of a specific community. And um I'm I'm glad that this sort of stuff is happening. I don't think it's just exclusive to charismatics. I think this stuff probably happens in all sorts of churches. Um, but there does seem to be a pattern that's connected to theology and an ideology around the stuff that **[32:51]** Daniel Silk has put out like culture of honor, like unpunishable that has ripple effects on people's lives because it seems to prioritize leaders and people who are gifted over folks who are just everyday normal folks, right? uh interns and students and the the not elite, the not special people, right? And so it seems like some of these blind spots are being revealed to Bethl. Um my question is, are they how are they going to get through this, right? How are they going to maneuver through this? Because, you **[33:22]** know, I think they have a massive building project that they're working on that's like a $60 million build building project like this that that's a probably a heavy lift for them financially. And so I'm curious like where is this going to go? But but what I what I am sure of, it definitely seems like the touch not the Lord's anointed and paralleling David and Saul and Saul not being killed by David even when he could be and how we're not to touch the Lord's anointed. Um that that that that's fading in church culture in general and specifically in charismatic culture. And **[33:53]** I think that's good, right? because I think we need to have more loyalty to the the victims or the potential victims uh than loyalty to a platform or a brand or a name. Ultimately, this is what happens when we stop calling evil what it is. We start explaining it away. And that brings us to a deeper conversation on where good and evil themselves are up for debate. This is Dr. John Deartini. And recently he had a conversation with Aubrey Marcus uh that questions the very **[34:27]** foundations of if there is objective good or evil. Okay. Now, Dr. John De Martini seems to be kind of like a new age woowoo philosopher uh type of character with regards to some of this stuff. He coins himself as a human behavior expert. And uh uh John uh Aubrey Marcus is a podcaster. Uh I don't know if he's a Christian. There's definitely some newagy stuff on here uh with regards to um how he frames some of **[34:58]** this sort of stuff that he talks about the God within himself and that sort of stuff which oddly enough is kind of similar conversation that comes out of some of the hypercharismatic stuff, right? that like because Jesus is in you, you have the same authority to the divine and we need to reclaim the new age and all that sort of stuff. But I wanted to highlight this for you guys because I think this is some of the dangers with regards to when you stop uh engaging with the objective good and evil. When you when you stop calling it out, you start explaining it away. **[35:30]** Right? So check this out. Everybody who's been raped attracted that >> 1300 cases of >> and the children attracted the the >> you really want to go there. >> That's wild. That's a crazy claim that victims participate in their own trauma. Now, I understand that that that that just because someone is a victim or victimized doesn't mean that they don't have agency, right? And and sometimes that can get complicated, especially if like two people are uh consensually together on a date, have drinks. Well, **[36:01]** when you have drinks for for example, you are uh incapable of giving consent, right? So, we're talking about the way the world world functions. Um you're incapable of giving consent. Um but this is way deeper than that. Like this is deeper than than just like victims in a situation have agency and every situation is not super cleancut, right? Um this is just talking about objective PDF activities. Go. All these things that we label good and bad have been labeled good or bad depending on who **[36:33]** you're taking [music] sides with. >> I have a really hard time with this. If I went home today and somebody was assaulting my wife, I would forcibly stop it. >> Probably because you would have >> probably 100% certainly. I wouldn't say maybe this is his belief and his you're going to react in that setting exactly proportion to your morality at the time. If you see what he's [music] doing as evil, you're going to do what you can to stop him. But it >> if you see what he is doing is evil. Oh my gosh, man. The the claims here are insane. >> is evil. **[37:03]** >> In your perception, it will be. So, he's talking he's giving him a hypothetical scenario and saying, "Hey, if you are um if you walk in and someone is violating, you know, your family member, your wife, uh he says your perception of it will be yikes. >> It's not okay to beat a child to a pulp. It's not okay to a child. There is [music] something actually fundamental inside of us that is on a driving force towards [music] life, love, freedom, the experience to live this beautiful world. **[37:34]** And if somebody is intentionally interfering with that, we have an obligation to try and prevent or stop it. You can override your impulses. I've wanted to hit somebody and not done it. You've repressed it inside yourself and then attacked [music] your customers right here in front of me. >> Attacked your customers right here in front of me. [laughter] He becomes the victim. Oh man. Oh man. But this is this is this is the thing. More relativism, right? Like morality is relative. And when there's more relative, it could always lead to **[38:04]** protecting the abuser. Cuz if evil isn't real, then abuse isn't real. And we could use all the psychological language you want to replace these moral categories, therapeutic language, so on and so forth. But without justice, it just all comes back to the the the enablement of the abuser, right? If if evil is subjective, institutions never have to refra repent. They just reframe it. Yikes, man. **[38:36]** >> You Well, you're basically taking information that that goes against what you say and you're [music] saying, "I'm just going to refuse to put it on my show because of it." It's like a fight to you. It doesn't match your belief. >> He's a victim now. He's a vict. guy that makes the crazy asinine claims that abusers attract the things that come to them is is is a victim in this in this in this trailer, which by the way is the best rage bait I've seen yet on the internet. [laughter] >> So, you're ready to fight. >> Your hands are shaking. >> When you say that you're going to not go any further on a podcast because of what **[39:06]** I'm saying because it challenges you and you're wanting to avoid >> because it's putting out information that I think is detrimental to the [music] world. I'm not going to pacify my my my research for any human being on this planet. Nobody. >> They look like they both want to rage quit. I love this. >> The reality is that there's upsides to that event. There's upsides to the murder. >> Yes, there's upsides to it. >> I think we're going to have to stop here, John. >> Yikes. Hey, man. Props to uh Aubrey Marcus. That was the best rage bait I've ever seen in my life. That was that was **[39:36]** amazing. I uh I'm hooked. I'm in. This trailer was so good. I had to go and look it up. look up some of the full conversation and just looking on the time stamps like it's absolute woo relativism and nonsense as far as I'm concerned, right? But uh yeah, no such thing as evil. Check this out. >> Everybody who's been attracted that >> 1300 cases of 13 >> and the children attracted the the >> I didn't say attracted. You did. >> No, I never said you attracted into their life. >> I said that they will automatically have in their life the counterbalancing **[40:07]** perception. So if they're addicted to one side, the opposite comes in. Okay, let's go answer that question then. The the child the child who's been abused and the and the person who's been did they attract that into their life? >> Okay, you you really want to go there? Let's go. All right. >> I I thought this was clickbait. >> When you take if you start with it's too broad. You got to break down the to its components. U first thing you find is something like threat. Then you might find violence. Then you might find um deceit. You break it down. There's 18 **[40:38]** most common things that I've seen in cases. 18. Now, if I asked you, have you ever threatened somebody? If you're honest, you'll have said yes. You've probably threatened somebody in your life. If I said you ever tried to force somebody to do something they didn't want to do. If you're honest with yourself, you probably have done that. Maybe your kids when they they wanted to play and you said no, DO YOUR HOMEWORK. WHAT? WHAT? OKAY. [laughter] Oh my goodness. Okay. This what I mean by the moral categories are so distorted here, right? Like me selling me forcing my son **[41:09]** to go brush his teeth is not the same as forcing someone to do something against their will or coercing someone. That is not the same thing. So this dude is making an obvious moral category error here um to reinstate this absolutely asini notion that there's no such thing as evil. If you go and and you take a look at where you've deceived somebody, well, you've deceived yourself in some cases and probably other people. If you break into its little components and **[41:40]** identify all the components and don't take the big generalization and label, you have done the same thing. So the first thing I do with people that have been raped is I go in and help them find out what are the components, where do they have done them in their life. That calms down some of the judgment on it in the first place. So instead of being a victim, >> calms down some of the judgment on it in the first place. Wow. Wow. Oh my gosh. This is This is absolutely **[42:12]** absolute. I I I really thought that, oh man, they just click baited this this trailer. They did a good job on it. No, no, no. This dude this dude is really as unhinged as I thought he was. and they're now looking at it with a little bit more rationality. Then I go in there, let's take each one, what was the gain and the benefit that came out of that moment. And I did that in front of 600 people for a lady that was stabbed 18 times and left on a street with a chain to a piece of cement to be run over by trucks. In about an hour and a half, she was in a state of gratitude. **[42:44]** She shifted her perspective. She actually closed her eyes and saw the individual that did it. She was freed from the anger and resentment. She lost 45 to 50 pounds. >> You c you you can have gratitude and be freed and and all those sort of things without minimizing the act as as less evil or more uh you know needing to empathize with the abuser or or or break down you know deconstructed to its bare bones of these 18 things of like it's **[43:14]** this is so foolish >> pounds of weight. She changed her hair. She was now able to date people again. She started her own radio show in Washington DC. Her life changed because I asked questions that she never got asked because she was trapped and that was evil and I'm now trapped for the rest of my life in that thing. I made her look at where she did everything that he had done in her own form. Uh she in her moan metaphorically even stabbed people in the back that were close friends in her perspective. She found **[43:45]** out what was the >> Do you see the mental gymnastics that people have to do in order to make sense of an a worldview that is so incoherent? The okay someone stabbing you will think about the times you've stabbed someone in their back. Someone taking advantage of you think of the times you've had to force people to brush their teeth. What about the times you've had to force your kids to go to bed? This this is absolutely crazy. **[44:16]** >> Upsides to it. It helped her get out of a relationship she didn't want to be in. It helped her get out of a city she didn't want to live in. There's a whole lot of things that came out of it that she was very blessed by. When she got through, >> she actually closed her eyes, saw the individual that experienced this from. She had tears in her eyes. She said, "Thank you." And that's something that most people don't comprehend. And most people are real caught in their little moral trips and they're basically victims of history their whole life. instead of looking at a possibility that there may be an alternative way of **[44:46]** looking at life. >> So I think that what you went through with her was a very beautiful thing. >> Well, I've done that on 1300. >> I don't I don't deny that. >> And that's why you won't convince me that you can't find blessings in it. >> I'm not trying to convince you that. But >> then it's not evil until you choose to make it stay stay evil. It's just an >> Yeah, this is so this is so goofy. Okay, so here here here's the deal. You can find the the blessing through a tragic situation. You could choose gratitude **[45:16]** despite lack. You you can walk through utter evil without being succumbed to it and crushed by it. I'm speaking someone as it, you know, experiencing essay as a kid. first being exposed to adult content pornography when I was five and then uh experiencing essay when I was seven or eight by older teenager boys, right, that were five, six years older than me. And that did a **[45:48]** huge number on me. You can walk through that and I wouldn't change anything about my life walking through that, right? Despite there being some things that followed me into adulthood, the things that I still have to work on, things that I got to be intentional about. Um, but I'm still grateful and I didn't choose to to to to succumb to the evil and to be a victim. I persevered despite primarily because of Jesus in my life and primarily because of a biblical anchoring and understanding that that **[46:18]** which the enemy meant for evil, God used for good. So that's a that's that's a that's a great framework. But but the issue is there's a minimization that's happening in this situation when you're trying to remove the objective nature of evil and you're trying to minimize that for the sake of whatever breakthrough Dr. uh John D. Martini is trying to get his patients through. You don't have to minimize how someone's experiences in order to break through in a different **[46:49]** area. And I think that is what's so frustrating about hearing him talk about this is that that is just a it's it's an asinine position. So most people who experience terrible things um figure out ways to cope and work through it and oftentimes become more resilient on the other side of that. That's that's that's the awesome part about u how life works sometimes. However, um him uh minimizing that is what is is the visceral reaction that that I'm having and maybe some of **[47:20]** you guys are having towards watching that is you're trying to explain something away instead of exposing it for how evil it is and then helping someone heal through it, right? Like like if someone breaks their arm in an automobile crash because there's a drunk driver, you don't have to minimize how evil that drunk driver was, how careless that drunk driver was. You don't have to minimize that reality in order to help someone get to the hospital, get surgery, do physical therapy, right? It **[47:50]** both things are true. There's evil there. And then there's a opportunity for massive redemption. And we talk about this all the time on the channel. Matter of fact, I put together a whole course that's available on our Patreon called Master My Habits. I think it's mastermyhabits.com or if you go to it's free on Patreon. like you could be just be a free follower there that I put together with my therapist on how to overcome addiction and trauma and all these sorts of things, right? So, man, that was that was that was really hard to listen through. But but but here's the deal. At the end of the day, everyone is searching for meaning, even the new age woowoo types, right? That **[48:22]** they're searching for meaning. It's just there's a lack of moral coherence. When you have uh objective good, um you have to defend the vulnerable. And if you do not have objective good, then you cannot defend the moral the vulnerable because why why did the vulnerable matter, right? Might is right. Right. Which I think is is very sad to see this sort of stuff play out and how um yeah, absolutely ah this position is because what it does **[48:55]** is it justifies and justifies and justifies and he's I think his his his approach here is not benevolent. I think he's trying to be benevolent. I think he's trying to help people. Um but it's at the expense of saying absolutely asinine statements like there's no such thing as evil and I just yeah I just absolutely disagree with it. So once you start blurring the lines between good and evil once you stop understanding that there's a realm beyond this realm uh it it's not long before people start speculating about what's real cosmically **[49:27]** which is why uh this next clip uh caught my attention. This is a clip that was viral over the weekend that I wanted to highlight with you guys, highlight for you guys. And this is Obama who clarified this statement talking about him believing that aliens are real. Okay, so let's look at this together. I found this uh very interesting and of course you know Sagar on Breaking Point who is uh into aliens and all that sort of stuff uh was excited about this topic **[49:57]** as was I right because I think there's a there's a biblical explanation for aliens which we're going to look at here in a second. Okay. So this is the original conversation that he had that got him into hot water about aliens and then we're going to get into some of the particulars that he said to follow up on this. >> Are aliens real? Uh they're real, but I haven't seen them. And and and uh they're not being kept in uh what is it? Area 51. >> Area 51. There there's no underground uh facility unless there's this enormous **[50:28]** conspiracy and they they hid it from the president of the United States. >> What was the first question you wanted? [laughter] >> That's a good answer. So he's saying they're not real, but unless there's a conspiracy that they hid it from the president of the United States. Well, you know, everyone's going to say, "Well, of course there's, you know, there's that that is a possibility." Or the alien buffs are >> answered when you became president. >> Uh, where are the aliens? >> Where are the aliens? >> So then the president went on to clarify his position. He says, "I was trying to **[50:59]** stick with the spirit of the speed round, but since it's gotten attention, let me clarify. Statistically, the universe is so vast that the odds are good there's life out there. But the distance between solar systems are so great that the chances we've been visited by aliens is low. And I saw no evidence during my presidency that extraterrestrials have made contact with us. Really? Okay. So, I actually agree with him, but I think there's a more **[51:30]** simple explanation here in a second that we'll go to. All right. Okay. And this is apparently an older video of him speaking a bit more on aliens and uh from 2021 I believe. So shout out to to Breaking Points for assembling all this for us. >> The truth is that when I came into office I asked right I was like all right >> that by the way that so many people would ask this question. you know, is there the lab somewhere where we're keeping the uh alien [laughter] specimens and spaceships? And uh uh you know, they did a little **[52:03]** bit of research and uh the answer was no. Uh so imagine um but what what is true uh and I'm I'm actually being serious here is is that u there are uh there's footage and records of objects in the skies that we don't know exactly what they are. We can't explain uh how they moved their trajectory. uh they they did not have um an easily **[52:37]** explainable pattern. And so, you know, I I think that we're uh people still take seriously trying to investigate and figure out what that is. Uh but I have nothing to report to you today. >> There you go. Look, put it together. He says, "I saw no evidence that they have made contact with us." That's that's not the same thing as if you can surmise that China, Russia, the United States are not behind something that's flying around in the sky at instantaneous speed, what else are you supposed to deduce? What else could it possibly be? **[53:09]** Is it always going to be Oh, it's a weather balloon. It's Yeah. So, I got I got you. I got you, Sagar. So, the the probability of life versus ev evidence of visitation. That's really what we're going to get into, right? And so, here's the idea. There's there's physical limits to interstellar travel. That's what President Obama was saying that if you're talking about travel between galaxies, there's a lot of restraints. Speed of light is one of those restraints. Energy requirements. Um there's there's multiple ways to to say, **[53:39]** "Hey, you you're not even if they're out there in the universe, you're not going to be able to uh prove that that sort of technology is here because there seems to be multiple laws that are being broken, right? And uh people say, "Well, maybe that's just in our galaxy." It's like, "No, no, no. In general, I it would be almost impossible to travel from one galaxy to another galaxy." Which leads us to this passage in Ephesians 6:12. It says, "We are not fighting against flesh and blood **[54:10]** enemies, but against evil rulers and authorities of the unseen world, against mighty powers in this dark world, and against evil spirits in the heavenly places. therefore put on the every piece of God's armor. And so that inspired we did the armor of God collection a while ago. And so um this idea of an unseen world, a unseen realm, a different dimension. So I think what's more possible and I would say more biblically aligned is that when you look at like **[54:40]** the work of Dr. Michael Heiser, you know, the the the late Dr. Dr. Michael Heiser. Um, you start discovering that the reality is that it's more likely that there's interdimensional aliens, demons, right, than there are interstellar coming across from different galaxies, right? And so the the ancient biblical worldview already includes nonhuman intelligence. So, so Christians don't even need to uh deal with the sci-fi **[55:12]** questions of other beings, right? Interdimensional spiritual beings are coherent with a biblical cosmology, right? Biological organisms crossing across galaxies, uh, not so much, right? Um, surviving radiation, overcoming relativistic time relations, the the the speed of light, energy constraints. But the Bible doesn't affirm extraterrestrial beings, but it absolutely affirms non a **[55:43]** non-material realm, right? And so the the interesting part about this whole conversation and and and even Sagar talking about it is that people are hungry for transcendence. People are hungry for something beyond this realm and and and a aliens function as a secular angel of sorts, right? They folks don't want to surrender their life to the creator and understand that there is an unseen realm of angels and demons and all these things that's happening and we see happening in scripture. Some **[56:13]** could argue that it's connected to the Nephilim in Genesis and the dismbi disemembered spirits and then the the the Nephilim being killed off before the flood, but then their spirits seem to be on the earth. All of that I think makes way more sense that there is interdimensional travel. We've talked about this with my man Nate Salah on the channel before. Then there is the reality that there is um uh across galaxies aliens traveling to our world. I I I so I I'm with the **[56:45]** president in that sense. And then he's also true in saying that yeah there there seem to be some sort of uh gathering of um these videos clearly of these objects defying these basic law of physics. Uh, and then also the collection probably they they probably have some sort of physical forms. I I would guess. I don't know. I don't know. But I think that's a much more coherent connection to that than this idea that uh there's aliens traveling across a galaxy and coming to see us with just **[57:18]** technology that that's beyond human comprehension at this point. But nevertheless, I'm still grateful that that hunger for something beyond this world doesn't just have to stop in Alien Talk. It also shows up in conversations around relics and artifacts, physical objects that many people hope can help anchor transcendence, right? Which brings us to my buddy Gavin Orland. He put out a really good video about the Shroud of Torin, which I love talking about the Shroud of Torin. I think it's one of the most fascinating uh topics **[57:51]** regarding anything from antiquity that that can point to or substantiate the reality that man this this seems like something otherworldly right in terms of the negative image that's uh exuberated through some sort of light on the shroud that that can't be explained. I think it's fascinating. Gavin does a really good video today um talking about if CS Lewis believed the shroud was real. Okay, so I'm going to pick this up at the four minute mark and then we'll look at another clip. **[58:21]** >> If you feel that way and you see an image that might be what Jesus actually looks like, it is going to hit you like a ton of bricks and you don't need to be certain about anything before you have that experience. Just like if you got a letter from a long-lost love and you're only 50/50 on whether it's a a forgery or even if you only think there's a 10% chance, it's still going to have an emotional impact upon you. And this image is especially alluring in that it helps us think about the resurrected Christ in particular and the resurrection as a unique event. >> So since the resurrection is a one-off event, you know, I've done other videos. I'll put up this thumbnail on the screen **[58:52]** and link to these various videos I reference here in the video. >> Yeah, that negative image of light shining on the shroud would would technically be the resurrected Jesus or even capturing the resurrection of Jesus, right? Which is actually really trippy to think about. >> Yeah. Description, you can go look this up. That's a video I did on the nature of the resurrection and I talk about Jesus's resurrected body as creation 2.0. It's a physical and yet immortal body. Nothing like that has ever existed before. What is my favorite doctrine to think about and so uh because we don't have any parallel cases for this you know other people were uh resuscitated **[59:24]** we might say but they didn't have the kind of experience of Easter morning. This is like second major event in all created reality. And so uh because we have no parallel cases it's fascinating to just wonder about what did this look like? How might it have gone and how might it have impacted a physical object like a shroud? I mean just imagine it happening you know early Sunday morning hell is still partying think they thinking they have won and then the body is moving and you know what was that first moment like and I don't think we can know all of this with certainty but it's so edifying to think about and my point is just that the shroud of turn is going to make you think about all this **[59:54]** it's wonderful >> but here's what I think we need to remember and this is the great news that I think Christians can come together on and that is you don't need to have certainty about the shroud of turn >> in order to have certainty about Jesus and his resurrection come on >> because the evidence for that number one is very good and I've done a video on that as well. You can see the thumb there. But even more than the evidence, the Holy Spirit can implant that knowledge on your heart. >> Uh so much so that you're overflowing with joy >> because you love Christ even though you've never seen him. Uh as Peter says, though you have not seen him, you love him and it fills you with joy **[60:25]** inexpressable. So that you know, you don't need to see Jesus's face in order to have that joy, to have that certainty in your heart. The best the most important thing is that he's he's real and he rose from the dead. >> Amen. I mean, one of the ways you could think about it, right, is that in light of everything we've talked about today, if if evil isn't real, then the truth collapses. But if relics are required for your faith, then your faith can collapse, right? Because what if a relic gets disproven? Now, I tend to be of the **[60:58]** opinion that I I I see some remarkable things with the shroud and I' I'd like to believe it's real, but I don't hinge my faith on that, right? Because if a relic is if a relic is required for faith, then then everything collapses, right? And and as Gavin is pointing out, Christianity stands or falls on the resurrection, not on the shroud, not on a relic, right? And so it's it's understandable that that people want physical proof. We are embodied **[61:28]** creatures after all, right? We are physical beings. However, um the certainty to need proof, I think ends up setting a trap because if if you absolutely need certainty and the shroud was proven to be real, there would still be people that would say that's not enough proof. Why would God not come back today where there's all this technology and video cameras and you would think that this would be the opportune time to prove himself real? Because it still requires a degree of faith, right? And faith and certainty **[62:00]** aren't the same thing. Now, once you grow in faith, you become more certain over your lifetime of the faith that you've walked out, but they're but they're not the same thing. And so, I I love the reality that I'm certain about my faith because I've applied it, because I've lived it out. And then in hindsight, I'm I'm seeing the hand of God move. I'm seeing the evidence of the resurrection in in my salvation in my own life. That's the beauty of all of this, right? Is that um there's a there's a degree that that that that's mysterious of what we're living out, but **[62:31]** we don't have to stay in that. Like we can continue walking out that and become more certain and confident with time and experience. And by the way, if you're enjoying hearing from Gavin, I have to let you guys know he's going to be at our second annual Bless God Summit happening here in just a few weeks, March 5th, 6th, and 7th here in beautiful Oceanside, California. He's doing a armchair discussion with um Michael Nolles on Protestantism versus Catholicism and the differences and the **[63:01]** similarities. And so that's happening March 5th, 6th, and 7th. Wes Huff is going to be there. KB and A mean from Southside Rabbi is going to be there. VIP tickets for this are already sold out, but we do still have some general admission tickets. They're 300 bucks. And we also have a few scholarships left. So, if you're in the area, meaning you're in North County, San Diego, and you can commit to being here all three days, go down, apply for a scholarship. We want to make sure we get as many of you guys there. That's the lineup, by the way. This is a stellar lineup. Mike Winger is going to be there. Ninjas and butterflies, L Rose, Trizle Man Fitness. This is going to be a phenomenal event. **[63:33]** Um, if you scroll down, you can see right here, scholarship applications, apply for a scholarship, then get a hold of me over DM, uh, so I can make sure that you're there in the room with us and you don't miss out on this awesome opportunity. Um, again, tickets are 300 bucks. If you have it, you want to sponsor a pay it forward ticket, you can do that. And if you're like, "Hey man, I'm not from the area. There's no way I can make it there even if you give me a scholarship." That's fine. We got you covered, too. We have the virtual ticket available now. This is 75 bucks. get you the live stream and every replay from **[64:04]** the summit um over at blessgod.co. You can pick that up. Go to blessgod.co and there is the virtual tickets. And by the way, some other stuff has been restocked like my 60-day occupied till I come, my godly ambition book. Uh we have all sorts of stuff. So anyway, that's available right now. You can pick it up. Let's jump back into this uh video from Gavin Orland here. He ties in CS Lewis's view on the shroud. Check this out. I really want to put the focus on the main parts of our faith. And I think that's **[64:34]** something that's helpful to remember when we're thinking about a topic like this. Final comment, sometimes it is claimed that CS Lewis embraced the authenticity of the shroud. >> Uh because someone sent him a picture of it and he had it framed and hung on his bedroom wall in his Oxford home and it remained there until he died. >> But I want to read to you what he actually said about it. And I think this is a good >> That's pretty cool. So if someone sent me a picture of the actual shroud, I probably too would frame it and have it in my studio or have it around my home. >> Good summitative uh statement that reflects the kind of posture that I **[65:06]** would love to encourage on a topic like this. He wrote a letter to the Anglican nun who sent it to him and said this. Thank you so much for the head of our Lord from the shroud. It has grown upon me wonderfully. I don't commit myself to the genuiness. One can never be quite certain. But the great value is to make one realize that he was a man and once even a dead man. There is so much difference between a doctrine and a realization. >> You see, CS Lewis sees this as a devotional reminder of Christ's real humanity first and foremost, but remains **[65:36]** open and non-committal on its genuiness and even says, "I don't I don't see how you could be certain." And I think that's a a healthy posture for us where on the one hand, you just don't need to be certain. Right? Remember Pope John Paul's reference to interior freedom. You can leave things open when you're not sure. That's fine. >> But on the other hand, you can let it be a reminder to you of what you are certain about. >> Jesus was a real man. He had a real face like that picture with the mustache and the beard and the nose, you know, and he really died and he really was buried in a linen. And he really was risen from the dead. >> Yeah. >> And whether or not that's his face **[66:08]** you're looking at on this shroud, >> if you trust in him and surrender your life to him and follow him in this world, you will see his face. And you can be more certain of that than you are of anything in all reality. >> Amen. Amen. And friends, if you haven't if you haven't placed your faith in Jesus, if you haven't surrendered your life in Jesus, please do that. Please do that. Um it's by far the the best decision I've ever made, by far uh the the thing that's transformed me from the inside out the most. simply acknowledging that man on left on my own merits, left on left to my own devices. **[66:39]** Uh I am uh a sinner in need of grace and mercy and Jesus demonstrated that grace and mercy by living the life I couldn't live, dying to death I should have died on the cross um in my place for my sin and then rose on a third day. And and the shroud could potentially be the thing that captures that. Um, and that's magnificent as a as as as a piece of history. But, um, I know that that happened because I've seen that once he rose and I and and and came to to to dwell in me and the spirit is dwelling **[67:09]** in me that that there is a transformation that's happened in my heart that the things I used to hate uh, like God, like church, like reading the Bible, I now love and the things I used to love like my sin, I now hate. And, uh, in that, friends, I have certainty and you can have that same certainty. So, if you haven't placed your faith in Jesus, place your faith in Jesus. Get in the scriptures. Get in his word. If you don't know where to start, start in the Gospel of John. Um, if you need a reading plan, we have one available uh for you guys on Logos Bible software where I I put together a free uh 104 **[67:41]** week uh reading plan uh that you can get with a free 60-day trial on Logos. Uh, and this walks you through the entire Bible in 104 weeks by uh combining Old Testament, New Testament, Psalm, and Proverb 5 days a week. So I you read Monday through Friday. So I I this is the the plan I I read every day. So it's not too late to hop on this, get caught up and uh and and and and join me on that and keep leaning into God's word and then also get connected to a good local church. There's so many good local churches on there. One of the things I love is having different pastors come on **[68:12]** my channel um and highlighting different ministries that I've gotten to visit or pastors I personally know. So get connected to a local church um and and and start working out what God has worked in. Now, similarly, when it comes to the conversation around relics and uh artifacts from antiquity, nothing gets people talking more than the Shroud of Trin, but also the Ark of the Covenant. This is one of my sons and I's favorite things to research. We've gone down all the rabbit holes, and Wes Huff was **[68:43]** recently asked about the Ark of the Covenant on Shawn Ryan podcast. Big shout out to Sean Ryan, Jeremy, Laura, the whole team over there. And uh this part of the conversation was really interesting because the Wes gives this really dope simple synopsis of what the Ark of the Covenant was, what it entails, how it connects to the gospel of Jesus, and uh I just love this entire conversation. If you have not seen this, go watch it. 1.5 million views in four days. I love everything about this. Let's check it out. >> You brought up the Ark of the Covenant. **[69:14]** >> What is that? The ark of the covenant was the presence of God on earth in the Old Testament. So you have uh eventually the temple being made or prior to that is the tabernacle and then you have this really interesting box that God tells the Israelites to make and he says I'm going to dwell with you with the presence like the presence in the garden. So you go all the way back to Genesis chapter 1 and um Adam and Eve are have this communi communicative relationship with God in very unique way. One of the things I've really been enjoying in Logos Bible software is their new study assistant. And I can go **[69:47]** in and ask what was in the Ark of the Covenant and give me the Bible verses to support this. And based on just the solid literature that's within Logos Bible Software, it will condense this. And so I remember in the Ark of the Covenant, I believe it was the tablets that God gave uh to Moses and Mana, I think. So, let's see if I was right. Uh, the Ark of the Covenant held three primary items. The stone tablets uh inscribed with the Ten Commandments, a **[70:17]** golden jar containing mana, and Aaron's staff that had been miraculously budded. Can't believe I didn't uh remember that. However, when King Solomon dedicated the temple, only the stone tablets remained inside, suggesting uh the other items were removed at some point during Israel's history. Stone tablets were the first items placed on the ark. And so here it also so it gives us a breakdown of everything when it was placed and then it gives us all the verses right which had the gold. So Hebrews 9:4 which had the golden altar of incense and the **[70:50]** go a gold carved ark of the covenant. This ark contained a gold jar of mana and Aaron's staff um and the stone tablets of the covenant and then tells us this in first king there was nothing in the ark except the two stone tablets that Moses had placed in it. Okay. and then Exodus, it explains it. So, this is the beautiful part is you can see a whole article dedicated to this. It give you the source and all the Bible verses. Anyway, um free 60-day trial. If you're not on Logos Bible Software, you should be free 60-day trial. And then after **[71:21]** that, I want to say the entry level plan, which comes with this AI, is like uh 12 bucks a month or 15 bucks a month. So, I use Logos every day. My 60-day plan is in there. West then goes back into how God's presence was with Adam and Eve in the garden. In fact, when they eat of the fruit and they realize their shame and their nakedness and they hide, it says that they heard the Lord God walking in the cool of the day. >> And so, there's a presence there that's tangible and real, but that, like I was talking about before, that separation from God, it's created a rift in that **[71:51]** relationship. And so, there's there's the the rift has made the proximity to God dangerous. And eventually what you get in God's chosen people, the Israelites, having that the presence in God in the tabernacle and in the temple, God says, "I'm going to dwell with you, but you need to be careful. You need to be careful with this. So there's a particular way that you're going to build this." >> Yeah. I think it became dangerous because God cannot have sinful people in his physical midst. And so that's why the ark is there to to to uh create a **[72:23]** barrier separation because prefall Adam and Eve had access right to God. and postfall there is the curse and all these sorts of things that happen. And so that's why I think that that when when Wes says dangerous I think that's what he's getting at >> and I'm going to my presence my glory is going to exist on the top of this box and that's the ark of the covenant. Now interestingly enough when Jesus comes around John's gospel starts out right in the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was God. But then in John 1:14 it says and the word **[72:56]** became flesh and made his dwelling among us. And that word that we translate as made his dwelling is actually the same word that is used in the Greek translation of the Old Testament translated prior to Jesus for tabernacled. >> That is so cool. Okay, let's look at John 1:14 and we can dig uh into the Greek word. He says, "The word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory and the glory of the one and only son who came from the father full of grace and truth." Okay, **[73:26]** so let's look up that word dwelling. And the word dwelling in the original Greek is >> now remember Wes said that it is this same word is used in the Greek version of the old testament because the Greek version was old testament was written in Hebrew and then it was translated to Greek New Testament of course is in Greek and so he's saying this same word was used in the Genesis account right or in the tabernacle account okay so if we look here dwelling live take up residence shelter live and Then sure **[73:58]** enough, you see it, one of the ways that it's used is tent or tabernacle. >> Skyn, right? The etmology of it, the root word of it, uh, tent >> tabernacle. >> Yeah, that's so interesting. So, the etmology of it is connected to the word for uh, tent and tabernacle and tent maker, right? So, Jesus makes his tabernacle, his tent, his is living his settlement among us. That is such a dope gem to pick up. And yeah, then you see **[74:30]** one of the cool things you see everywhere else that word is used in the New Testament. It's used three times. John 1:14, Revelation, um it's uses the word shelter, and Revelation 3:16, uh dwelling place and those who live in heaven, right? And then there's the Greek versions of it, um laid out. Okay. Yes. Again, big shout out to Logos Bible Software, man. I love Logos. Okay, let's uh jump back into this. So referring to the tent that the ark of the covenant which held the presence of God had. So I **[75:00]** think it's very overt. It would have been far more overt to the Jewish reader. >> So some translations just say made his presence u made his dwelling. There are some translations that say tabernacled among us. Um but I think the Jewish reader who's reading the Greek there if they were aware of the Greek translation of the Old Testament would have immediately thought >> he's talking about God's presence. He's talking about what was >> dwelling over the ark of the covenant. And guess what? God is with us again, but it's in Jesus. >> That's right. >> Jesus is that presence. He's dwelling with us. He's walking with us. He's in **[75:31]** the midst of his people. And that's what ultimately, you know, in Revelation, in the last book of the Bible, it says that that's going to be there. That presence is going to be there in the new heavens and the new earth. And so, the ark of the covenant was part of this old covenantal system which is always meant to point to something. And this is if people are interested in this, reading the book of Hebrews in the New Testament, the whole theme is how all of these things in the Old Covenant were shadows cast by Jesus. >> Yeah. The old Old Testament is **[76:02]** foreshadowing what's coming in the New Testament. And the the New Testament is often the fulfillment of the Old Testament uh in in so many different ways. And so it's yeah, they're interconnected. And this is why like it's good that we read the Old Testament. You should be reading through the Bible. I I advocate reading the Bible. I'm reading it through it in two years right now. You can read it through a year, but if you got like 20, 30 minutes a day. Yeah. Absolutely. >> All of these things are fulfilled. You like Moses, Jesus is the new Moses. You like the priestly system, Jesus is the priest who's never going to die. He's **[76:32]** always going to intercede on your behalf. You like the angels, Jesus is greater than the angels. You like the temple, Jesus has fulfilled the temple. You are now the presence of the Holy Spirit. You are now the temple. So, it's all of these things. It's an amazing book in that way. and that it's talking to Jews who are tempted to go back >> to go back. They've been ostracized from the pagan Greor Roman culture of their day and now they're proclaiming Jesus as the Messiah and they're being ostracized by their Jewish communities as well. The author of Hebrews says there's nothing to go back to. >> Don't be tempted. Jesus is the fulfillment of all these things. Don't go back to the shadows when you know **[77:02]** what casts. It's foolish. And ultimately part of that is that you know that presence of God in the tabernacle that so there was a uh there was a curtain in front of the holy of holies where the ark of the covenant was in the temple >> and in the gospels it says that when Jesus died the temp the the the um curtain was actually ripped into >> and there's a symbolic meaning in there in that the divide between the priests who get to go into the holy of holies once a year on yamapour on the day of atonement. Well, now you that that **[77:35]** that's been that divide that's been eradicated. >> Y >> because the author of Hebrews says you have a priest who now intercedes on your behalf where you can go into the Holy of Holies in the presence of God. You can talk to God directly. So that was a long-winded answer. >> Wow. >> Yeah. I love that, man. One time for Wes Huff. One time for Wes Huff. Now, what's even cooler about that, and Wes was kind of alluding to this in 1 Corinthians 3:16, it says, "Don't you know that you yourselves are God's temple and that God's spirit dwells in your midst? If anyone destroys God's temple, God will **[78:06]** destroy that person for God's temple is sacred and you together are that temple." So, we collectively as as as a people of God are now God's temple. In Ephesians uh chapter 2 21 it says in him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. So this is talking about the local church, right? The whole temple is together and in him you two are being built together to become a dwelling in **[78:36]** which God lives by his spirit. That we collectively are a dwelling for God to live in in the same way that he was in the ark of the covenant that that we are now that dwelling as the church for God's spirit to live in. I I love how it all beautifully connects and how much there's so so much scripture and even if we go back in here, we look up this word dwelling. I think it's different than the word that Wes pointed out in the original, right? And so this is a dwelling place, **[79:06]** >> right? A dwelling place. This is a a location, a house of sorts that it goes from a a a a box with God's spirit dwelling to now we collectively are a people in our place for God to dwell in. And I I I love that passage. And what's so awesome about that is is is God's spirit isn't confined to a temple or a building. We collectively as the people of God carry God's temple here and now. We collectively as the people of God carry God's presence here and now. So **[79:37]** wherever we go, we now are are not just image bearsers created in his image. We're also carrying God's presence as as his people, as his bride, as his church. Right? And to me, that's a lot of what we're trying to empower and equip people to do is like in light of all the bad things that are happening, in light of the moral relativism, the the the decay, the the the the cover up culture, all these things that are happening, that we would be recognize our role in this, that we are to be uh the hands and feet **[80:09]** of Jesus, that we are to be the city on a hill, the the the the light of the world, right? And so I'm so uh grateful for Wes going on there. But I also want to make sure you guys know but Wes will be with us at the Bless God Summit. Again, link is pinned up in the comment below. And this idea of us being the light of the world is one of the things I explore in my new book, Godly Ambition, which if you guys haven't picked it up, you should. It's available. Signed copies are available on blessgod.co, but you can get it on Amazon for cheaper **[80:40]** or you can pick it up on Audible. And I did write it and I do read uh the the book myself on Audible. So if you don't have it, go pick it up or get yourself a signed copy. This is available over at blesscgod.co. Uh godly ambition going deeper on saying, "Hey, because we are the people of God, because we have the spirit of God, what is godly ambition look like here and now. How do we make the most of our time, talent, and treasure? How do we actually make an impact on this world instead of just retreating and running from the world?" Those are the themes that are being discussed in godly ambition. And th **[81:11]** those are some of the things we'll be discussing at the Bless God Summit. Again, happening March 5th, 6th, and 7th here in Oceanside. If you don't have your tickets for this, get your tickets now. VIP is completely sold out. We still have some general admission tickets left. Um, and we still have some scholarships left. So, if you're local to the area or if you can get yourself here and cover your own travel and lodging, we'll comp you a general admission scholarship. You just got to go apply for a scholarship and then get a hold of me, shoot me a DM on Instagram with all your information. And if you can't make it, uh, we have virtual tickets, okay? So, get your virtual ticket. Wes Health will be speaking. Uh, **[81:42]** we have Glenn Scriber. We have an amazing lineup. Mike Winger is going to be there. KB and Amin from Southside Rabbi. We just confirmed uh the artist Jake is going to be there from Golden Hour. If you guys aren't familiar with Jake, he's coming. His brother Zach is going to be there as well. Uh, it's going to be a phenomenal event. So, you can go to blessgodsummit.com, get your tickets now. Go to blessgod.co, get your uh virtual tickets. Thank you so much for hanging out with me. Hopefully uh this this video though it started off probably pretty heavy with the Bethl stuff ended up encouraging you and blessing you uh to understand that **[82:13]** hey man ultimately our faith is in Jesus and that Jesus established the church and though certain churches can drift and make mistakes and error that ultimately our faith is in the Lord and and how God moves through his people today. So uh let me know your thoughts. If you're new here, do me a favor, subscribe to the channel. Hit that subscribe button. Hit that like button. Let me know where you're watching from. I love hearing from you guys. And I will be seeing you guys tomorrow. All right. Peace.