The Future of Laravel Partnerships With Dave Hicking  🔗 **Source:** [The Future of Laravel Partnerships With Dave Hicking](https://share.snipd.com/episode/95c351f3-c769-437a-a27e-8e486a5eaae9) ## Highlights - **How Using a Laravel App Led Dave To Tighten** - Dave's first exposure to Laravel came from using HelpSpot at UConn without knowing it was built on Laravel. - That connection plus Ian Lansing's LaraJobs post led Dave to join Tighten (then Titan) as employee number eight and begin his Laravel journey. Transcript: Dave Hicking Yeah, my first exposure to Laravel was by using an app that was created, that was written in Laravel. I didn't know it was written in Laravel at the time. So I used to work at the University of Connecticut. We were customers of HelpSpot, which is made by Userscape, Ian Lansing's company. Friend of the podcast, yep. Friend of the podcast. I was one of those annoying power users who was like spending enough money that I could like get requests in and get things to happen, you know, got to know Ian a little bit that way. Um, you have 2014, which does not feel that long ago, but is very long ago at this point. Um, you know, because Ian also runs Lara Jobs. He tweeted out, I followed him on Twitter. He tweeted out in Lara Jobs link to a job posting at a place called Titan. And I happened to see it. And I ended up stumbling into working at Titan way back. ([Time 0:01:39](https://share.snipd.com/snip/6d9f28a0-ec8b-411a-964c-967bbf5a5a18)) - **From Tighten To Yale And Back Again** - Dave left Tighten to work at Yale's Beinecke library running digital and tech, then returned to Tighten after finding remote-to-commute life unsustainable. - That move helped him accumulate cross-sector experience in IT, higher ed, and agencies before later joining Userscape and Laravel. Transcript: Dave Hicking Worked at Titan for a couple of years. And then I was like, see you later. Matt Stauffer No, I left your dream job came along, which is funny because your even dreamier job came along later. But I mean, at that time it felt pretty dreamy. Dave Hicking No, it was definitely, it was a crazy opportunity to go work at Yale University. So I live in Connecticut. That's why I worked at UConn. Capital Y, Yale. Yale University. Like among Yale, Harvard, all those, the Yale. And they have the largest rare book and a special collections library in the Western hemisphere. It's called the Beinecke library. And they needed somebody to run their, basically their digital and their tech side of things. So I had worked in IT at UConn. So kind of going a little bit back to my roots there, worked there for just over a year and a half. And, you know, I learned a lot working at Yale, made a lot of good friends, got a lot of things done, but the, the, the allure called me back to tighten up, uh, you know, it was a combination Of, you know, when you work remotely and then all of a sudden you're driving 45 to 60 minutes each way. And And you're just like, I could do this or I could go work with my friends again and commute upstairs. Can you walk upstairs from my commute? It's pretty it's a pretty compelling pitch. So I came back to Titan in a similar but slightly different role. And I was at Titan for goodness. That must have been four and a half years that time. ([Time 0:03:40](https://share.snipd.com/snip/0c900ccd-1e1c-49d3-98eb-078dff9021dc)) - **Technical Project Management Is A Distinct Strength** - Dave realized his strength wasn't writing production-level code but connecting teams, running processes, and organizing projects. - That non-developer technical PM skillset let him bridge devs, clients, and product teams across universities and agencies. Transcript: Dave Hicking Yeah, I mean, I at UConn, I did a million things. When you work for a public institution, there is never enough time, never enough people to do all the things you want to do. So when you are in your mid to late 20s and you're just like, yeah, I'll do it. Yeah. I'll do it. You know, they're just, you understand. I mean, I understand now in my forties, cause I said, but it's like, you're like, yeah, sure. Go ahead. Knock yourself out. Like go, go crazy. Right. And so it was a great environment where I could honestly, what I really just did is I just accumulated responsibilities and just pick stuff up. But it meant that I could get into things like, oh, I learned how to project manage. I learned how to hire. I learned how to work with developers. I learned how to do all these things that I was then able to kind of piece together, come work at Titan and kind of get started down that path. The move back to Yale was, you know, I truly do love higher ed. You know, I felt such a connection to UConn granted my alma mater, but I felt such a connection to them when I worked there and working at Yale. You know, listen, love the people I work with there. Didn't feel the same connection. It wasn't the same thing. It's not your alma mater, but also my job was just fundamentally different. I didn't like supervise students. I wasn't like in the day to day. You know, I could sometimes look up and be like, Oh, I guess the kids are on break this week. I can go to lunch with no line. That's, you know, like that sort of a thing. Matt Stauffer Yeah. Dave Hicking Yeah. There was a little bit of a, of a common thread there, but you know, beyond that, I mean, I think what for me, like the last, I guess, eight, eight, eight or so years of my career, the, the Common thread, you know, coming back to Titan, going to Userscape, coming here is that increasingly I realize this, you know, I'm not a developer, really. I pretend to be one sometimes. You don't want me working on a serious project, but I'm not a developer, but I'm a part of the Laravel community. This is kind of where I've made my home. And so finding all these ways to help, you know, draw connections between groups, help run processes, organize, keep things moving. These are all things that I enjoy doing that I'm good at doing. And I've just found different ways to kind of do that and kind of learning and picking up, hopefully picking up new skills along the way, you know? ([Time 0:06:30](https://share.snipd.com/snip/adf168d3-fd46-452f-acc0-34fd8c9b4a70)) - **Use A 30 60 90 Listening Plan When Starting New Roles** - In your first 30/60/90 days, listen and meet everyone: talk to existing partners and recent leavers to map the landscape. - Dave followed Rands' 30/60/90 approach, used partner conversations to find friction and pick low-hanging fruit. Transcript: Dave Hicking A longtime reader of, are you familiar with RANS? Do you know who that is? Matt Stauffer Yeah. I know about RANS because of you when you worked at RANS. Okay. There you go. Dave Hicking I'm just going to say, there's no way I could have worked for you and not told you about RANS. Matt Stauffer Not everyone's familiar. So. Dave Hicking The website is randsinrepose.com. He's written several books about engineering management, just leadership in general. And when I started sort of working my way up at UConn a little bit, because I started at UConn, truthfully, when I was 17. But I even started like working not as a student when I I was 21. And I was there for 10 years after that. And so as I was working my way up, I was like, you know, there's no playbook. There's no like, here's how you do this. And so I'm like, okay, I need to learn how to work with these devs. I need all those sort of steroids. You know, I had to understand that. And so I was just like a sponge reading his blog posts. And um, he has one blog post talks about sort of like 30, 60, 90, right? Like your first 30 days or this, your first 60 days or this, your first 90 days or this. So like, initially it was just like, I need to listen, go meet every single existing partner, go talk to people who have just recently left the partner program. There's some, there's some really smart. There's some good info there. And I'm just like, I'm talking to people internally. I'm talking to people externally because I had worked at UserScape, worked at Titan. There were some partners who I knew, obviously, I knew you, but other folks who I'd seen at Laracons, other folks, I was like, I'm just meeting them for the first time, even though they Had been Laravel partners for a very long time. So it's like this initial thing is trying to understand what are the dynamics? What do people even want out of a partner program? Like just all that kind of like trying to get up to speed as quickly as possible, as voraciously as possible, trying to understand and consume all this information before I really go And do anything major. But in the meantime, it's a lot of like, okay, working with each partner, what's something I can like help you with? Like let's, it just is a good intro. First of all, it's great relationship building, but it's also very tangible in terms of like, it helps me discover, oh, when I try to do this with a partner, it's either really easy or, Oh, there's some friction. How do I like, it just, it's, it's like a really easy way or just picking the slow hanging fruit. And it's like, let me map the territory, understand what's going on. And you're just going bit by bit by bit, trying to build that trust, build that relationship, um, uh, over and over again. ([Time 0:17:38](https://share.snipd.com/snip/213f5a35-9978-4a13-aa6f-74e2e4a40531)) - **What A Balanced Laravel Partner Network Looks Like** - A healthy partner network is balanced by geography, agency size, industry focus, and product specialization to cover 80–90% of client needs. - Dave wants partners who fit time zones, cultural fit, and vertical expertise (e.g., higher ed, finance, Livewire/Filament stacks). Transcript: Dave Hicking I'm trying to do, I would say, two things with the partner program, which I think really nicely tie in to one another. So on the one hand, this is going to sound very obvious, but I want to build a, and I love this word, I want to build a balanced network of agencies around the world that are doing great work With Laravel and balanced meaning different locations, but people in, you know, agencies in different locations have customers at first, but like, sometimes people want to work With somebody for cultural reasons. Sometimes it's for time zone reasons. I don't have to tell you, right. But for the, both for the agency, as well as the, as the, as the client, you might have a really awesome potential lead that shows up on your doorstep. But if they are 12 hours different from your dev team, you're just going to be like, that's just not really going to work for us. Right. So, um, different locations, different types and sizes of agencies. Some people want to work with a small, almost boutique sized, uh, smaller, like super small. Yeah. Um, there are pros and cons that come with that. Some people want something in the middle. Some people want, um, let's describe it as like, it's like the full car wash. It's like, I want to go in one end and pop out the other. And along the way I want branding. I want SEO. Like they want the whole thing. And they are looking for a larger agency, right? So I want different sizes. For partners who have these different sort of specialties or different, I'll say actually more like different industries or ICPs, right? So some partners, they will work with just about everybody and their sort of niche is either their tech capability or their geographic region or whatever. But we have some partners where it's like, no, actually we really want to work with higher ed or we really want to work with financial companies and we have expertise specific for that, Right? Not all partners do, but it's really nice to have those in the mix. And then also different tech stacks or different products that people are pairing with Laravel. So everybody's using Laravel, right? That's supposed to be a given, but it's like, we truly have some partners where they're like, no, no, no. We really, we're like our bread and butter is like Livewire, it's filament, it's Laravel, we're gone. Like that's what we really want to do. And of course, when you run an agency, when you run our consultancy, sometimes you just like, Hey, this seems like good work. Maybe it's not like ideal, but it's okay. Like I understand all that, but like trying to understand, like given, you know, if you had your, your say, if you had your pick, right. We have other partners where it's like, Oh, what we really want to do is we want to build statomic plus this, that's how we do it, right? So trying to get a good mix of all of that. Ideally, if somebody needs help from an agency, if somebody has a product they want to build, if somebody has a product that needs rescuing, if somebody needs consulting advice and They don't already have one in mind because they've heard about them or they've learned about them or they visit or whatever, they come to the Laravel partner page within reason. I want to accommodate a healthy 80 to 90%, right? There's, there's edge cases everywhere where it's just like, I'm sorry, I actually don't have 20 partners around the world who can all take your code igniter three apps and turn them Like, okay, we have, you know, like there there's, there's gonna be some edge cases there. Right. Um, so that's one thing I want to do with the partner program. ([Time 0:21:16](https://share.snipd.com/snip/4c508f31-cf3c-495b-bc71-48464f12fc13)) - **Product Success Fuels Open Source And Partners** - Laravel is both an open-source ecosystem and a product company; success of Laravel products funds open-source and community activities. - Dave frames partner success and Laravel product success as mutually reinforcing in a flywheel. Transcript: Dave Hicking But we want to work alongside these partners to help them with their clients, like build new apps on cloud or find great opportunities to migrate them over. Laravel is always going to be an open source ecosystem. It's like it's the foundation. It's at the base of everything we're doing. But we are also a product company. Truthfully. We've been a product company for a long time to a certain degree. I mean, forge the original Laravel product. The reason why Taylor could go independent. Matt Stauffer Exactly. Yeah. Dave Hicking We've been a product company for a very long time. And truthfully, the more successful we are with our products, that's obviously great for Laravel. We think that it's very self, I can selfishly say that, but that's also more that we are able to invest in open source. We have grown the open source team. We have a larger portion of people devoted to open source, you know, in terms of raw numbers than I think we probably ever have. Events. We sponsor meetups. We send swag out. We actively are facilitating that. We have people who are doing exactly that because the more people we bring into the ecosystem, the more people we bring into the community. Yeah, sure, the better it is for Laravel, but the better it is for our partners, the better it is for every dev listening to this. And so these things operate in this lovely cycle, ideally, right? That's the dream, but that's what we're working to do. ([Time 0:25:27](https://share.snipd.com/snip/54ef5d3e-6d71-4494-8f3b-f90ab39e4dd6)) - **Host Closed Partner Sessions At Conferences** - Deepen partner ties by creating closed-door partner events where Laravel leadership and partners talk candidly about needs and roadmap. - Dave ran partner meetups at Laracon EU/India to surface frank feedback and foster cooperative deals. Transcript: Dave Hicking Like one of the things I, you know, you talked earlier, like, what did I do that first year? You know, especially initially, what I really tried to do is that word partner, like it really does matter to me. And so like sort of helping to deepen the connections between our partners and all parts of Laravel, I think is great for our partners. I think it's great for Laravel, right? So helping our partners get into early access programs or helping answer questions or all those sorts of like tighter connections. And that also like these partner events that we're doing now also play a role there where it's like, oh, no, like you actually can really openly. In the room, sitting across the table from Taylor and Tom or whoever else, but also with fellow partner where it's not just like this sort of async distributed messaging in, but it's Like somebody says something and somebody's like, oh yeah, I would love that too. And you can kind of plus on top of each other. It's just a totally different environment. We got awesome feedback from, uh, from partners in India and Europe. We're going to do, do it again. We'll have even more partners at the U S one. It might even be something bigger. The Laracon U.S. Schedule is getting a little crazy. Like there's so much going on, but that's another way where it's like we can, you know, Laravel partners, they, yes, they're agencies, but you run the Laravel podcast. Vehicle does the Laravel Worldwide Meetup. It's not uncommon for not every partner, but lots of partners are involved, either involved or they help run local meetups or they're doing things that like our partners are really Deeply involved in the ecosystem and the community. And like, one of the things that I love doing is I love connecting like in a weird way. Like that's one of the things I feel like I'm really good at is connecting. And so I can kind of go, Oh, I see this person's doing this. I see this person's doing this, like not even just making that connection, but it's like facilitating that. It's like, Oh, you're trying to make that happen. Can I, can I make that connection and let that go run off and bear fruit? And Oh, let's do this. ([Time 0:31:21](https://share.snipd.com/snip/4a9e5d0c-d350-4421-a277-8772ff5e3d1c)) - **Add A Free Community Tier To Grow Partner Reach** - Offer a free community partner tier alongside a paid tier to lower friction for small agencies and expand global coverage. - Dave replaced four tiers with two: a paid tier for deeper collaboration and a community tier to include small or geographically important agencies. Transcript: Dave Hicking So what was coming was, so we previously had four different tiers to the partner program and it was, you know, we were trying to figure out, okay, if this tier does this and what, what does It mean to be in this tier and what benefits do you get and how does this all work? And it just wasn't working. There was all sorts of reasons why it wasn't working. It was a little, a little more complicated than we wanted it to be. But like when I talked before about these two things that we're trying to accomplish, right, we want to build a balanced network of agencies and we want to work with a portion of those, To help sell our products, truthfully, but help them also win work using our products, using our framework, to do that kind of a thing. It's, we have two tiers and that's all those two tiers too. But truly, like we now have a, we have a tier that is called the community partner tier. And it is designed to allow us for the first time, because I'll just say it up until this point, we charged to be a Laravel partner, period. That was always the way that it had worked. The prices scaled in the different tiers, but then you're getting into a world where it's like, I'm spending this much. What am I getting? And how am I doing this? And how am I doing that? And we wanted to have it be a world where we have a paid tier where we can hopefully, and you know, if you disagree, tell me offline, I'm just kidding. Um, where we can hopefully make the value so obvious that we can focus and make that like a really compelling case. And then we have another tier. And by the way, I, every partner that I add to the network, we do research, we check references, like we are vetting. It's not just like send Dave an email and we add you to the list, but it allows us to get to work with different kinds of agencies who are either in parts of the world where that price might Not have, might've been pretty prohibitive, but maybe there's some, maybe there's a home for a partner there. Or in some cases it's like, oh, we really weren't going to work with a super small two to five person shop before, because even though the price is scaled, the smaller you are, the bigger Of a chunk of your budget that is. And now you're just like, I got to justify that. And what's the ROI and everything else. You know, I, I have a smaller subsection of partners where sure, let's talk about ROI. Let's make that worthwhile. Let's do everything else. But I need to have a longer tail of partners where it's like, no, no, no. Like that's great. We want to work with you to do all those other things, but like, I want you in the, in the network because you're helping to fill a role or you're really involved in the community or you're, You're balancing us out in so many ways. And the other thing that lets us do is it hopefully lets us work with an agency might be starting really small. And then as they grow, as they bring on more, as their budgets get bigger, as they do whatever, they might look at this and go, Oh, maybe it's time to move up. Like we never had a way for agencies to really like do that, to progress, to grow with Laravel. We still have to prove that out. Cause we literally just launched this like six weeks ago, five weeks ago. ([Time 0:38:35](https://share.snipd.com/snip/9ce1fbd4-dc97-4ddd-bfa9-c7ac6282e6ad)) - **Let A New Partner Structure Prove Itself Before Scaling** - After restructuring, measure what works then iterate: watch which partner mixes and demand emerge before expanding the program. - Dave plans to observe real-world outcomes for a year, then adjust partner composition and scale support. Transcript: Dave Hicking What I'm really looking forward to over the next year, I'll start with the year. What I'm looking forward to over the next year is, okay, so I got in here, took stock of what was working, what was now working, tucked lots of partners, starting to build that trust, build Those relationships. Now I've kind of taken my stand and going, okay, here's how I think I want this to work. First of all, I get to see what works about this, what doesn't work about this, right? Continue to adjust, continue to try to understand. Oh, okay. Like I thought I needed two partners over here with this kind of thing, or this is an emerging part of the market. And is this a case where it's like, oh, I need to like find existing work with existing partners and go, Hey, do you know this exists? Like it's, it's really just now that I've got the structure in place, um, letting it play out a little bit and, and, and letting it actually work and actually seeing what it's like to do This. And then the goal is, okay, well, now that we're doing things like doing more with selling alongside our partners and marketing their wins and okay, great. You did this awesome thing. We were there. Great. Now let's do a video, a webinar, a case study to keep that whole like flywheel moving. We're going to see what the sort of the demand is. I'm currently a partner program of one at some point that will change. And so, okay, what do we need more of? We need more of this. We need more of that, which then frees me up to go to other things, right? To go tackle other challenges, to go work with our partners in other different ways or, or to, to, to do more for Laravel in whatever way that might be. ([Time 0:41:59](https://share.snipd.com/snip/66ee0a36-8bc9-447a-a674-7f4351bcc84a)) - **AI Lowers Implementation Cost But Not Product Judgment** - AI will make it cheaper and faster to write code but won't replace judgment about product fit, architecture, or scale. - Dave argues agencies' domain expertise and architectural judgment remain critical as AI handles boilerplate and speed. Transcript: Dave Hicking Um, I'm going to try to say something that doesn't involve AI because we're all sick of, I'm sure we're all sick of hearing about AI. Um, uh, we have a, we have an internal Slack channel at Laravel. It's just called AI, but we almost need two ones. We need like the, I'm sick. We need like the anti, not anti, but just like, all right, you know, like, okay, can I, can I take a break? We're in this like paradox right now where it's like on the one hand, I'm just going to echo a conference talk. I did. I'm turning in that person. It's never been cheaper to write a line of code. All things considered. Yeah. Doesn't mean it's the right code. It doesn't mean it's the right feature. It doesn't mean it's what the business needs. It doesn't mean any of that. It just means this it was it was easier faster cheaper to get something that is that you know i used to talk all the time i type about the 80 20 rule right yeah it's never been easier to get To that 80 20 okay great is this worth polishing is this worth building is this worth not even just making not even saying like is this worth making like real or like coded by like because There are plenty of lid happens every day at Laravel. I'm sure it happens every day at Titan. Now plenty of very real, very credentialed, very experienced engineers, software devs are using AI substantially. Right. So it's not even about like, this is not real unless no, it's not even about that. It's more like, Oh, okay. We got this. Should we have done this? Yeah. Is this actually the right thing to do? You know, um, uh, uh, you know, sure. Whatever level it's we're amongst friends here who however many thousands people are gonna listen to this. Um, you know, um, you know, Anthropic has been on this torrid pace of releasing features. And we were just having a conversation in Slack today where it's like, um, I just pulled the, cause I'm a millennial. So of course I love animated gifts. Um, I pulled the animated gift of, of Goldblum from Jurassic Park where it's like the scientists were so busy trying to figure out if they could, they never stopped to think if they should. And, you know, for such a long time, it felt like there was this friction with regard or, you know, or even just like thinking of engineering or devs as this scarce resource. And it's like, we've all like flipped that in a sense, or at least people think they flip that, but like, there's so much more that goes along with that. Right. And so like, it's going to be terrifying. It's going to mean that some things are going to change, but like what agencies, what partners have always been about, what Laravel has always been about is like, we are helping people Solve problems, business problems, personal things are trying to do dreams that they're trying to accomplish. The method was using Laravel and writing Laravel code. Devs have lots of agency, lots of experience, lots of expertise. Our partners have so many of those, so many of those qualities. And to be able to leverage that, there's never going to be so many more Laravel apps out there. Yeah. And you're going to, sure. AI is going to do a lot of boilerplate, going to write a lot of things. Awesome. Great. Um, but you still have to understand how it works. Yeah. You still have to understand, you still have to think about things like, how am I going to scale this? How is this, is this even the right feature to build in the first place? Just cause I, great, cool. I built, um, yeah, I built a fourth way to, to SSO into our system. Why? I don't know. I, I, Claude said I could, you know? Um, I think, I think, I think agencies have so much to offer there, so much to offer. It's always been about expertise, right? The code is just a means to an end to a certain, and it's not, that's not to denigrate it, right? The code was the method. It was the hammer. And now we, you know, but there's always been other tools and, you know, watching our partners and helping our partners and working with our partners to make sure that they can articulate, Like, yeah, we have those other tools along with this other skill. ([Time 0:43:34](https://share.snipd.com/snip/cd48fec0-6a47-49b6-8572-317883f3ca43)) - **Have Experienced Devs Oversee AI Generated Work** - Use experienced developers to leverage AI effectively by choosing the right packages, architecture, and trade-offs instead of blindly accepting generated code. - Dave highlights examples like selecting Filament or Livewire when appropriate rather than AI-chosen ad-hoc stacks. Transcript: Dave Hicking And to be able to leverage that, there's never going to be so many more Laravel apps out there. Yeah. And you're going to, sure. AI is going to do a lot of boilerplate, going to write a lot of things. Awesome. Great. Um, but you still have to understand how it works. Yeah. You still have to understand, you still have to think about things like, how am I going to scale this? How is this, is this even the right feature to build in the first place? Just cause I, great, cool. I built, um, yeah, I built a fourth way to, to SSO into our system. Why? I don't know. I, I, Claude said I could, you know? Um, I think, I think, I think agencies have so much to offer there, so much to offer. It's always been about expertise, right? The code is just a means to an end to a certain, and it's not, that's not to denigrate it, right? The code was the method. It was the hammer. And now we, you know, but there's always been other tools and, you know, watching our partners and helping our partners and working with our partners to make sure that they can articulate, Like, yeah, we have those other tools along with this other skill. ([Time 0:46:18](https://share.snipd.com/snip/70c65fa2-ecff-4f62-9c89-7efcbfcef059)) - **Producer Dave Has A Long Hip Hop And Podcast Career** - Outside Laravel, Dave has produced hip hop since the early 2000s, runs the Clack Radio podcast for 15 years, and composes theme music for podcasts. - He frequently edits technical podcasts, creates social clips, and is adding Ian and Aaron's new podcast to his production roster. Transcript: Dave Hicking Oh man, I have a life. No. Um, uh, yeah, I have been, uh, producing, uh, hip hop music for, I'm going to date myself, uh, longer than some listeners of this show possibly been alive, probably since 2002, 2003, Very long time. Um, I've been recording, uh, my own podcast on, on hip hop called Clack Radio Speakers. Uh, I've got a Patreon for that. I've had that for, this is, it's going to sound ridiculous for 15 years now, which is incredible. I didn't know if I knew that Patreon was around 15 years ago. So Patreon's not been around 15 years, but the podcast has been around for 15 years. Um, Patreon's been around for a while, but not that long. Um, I have some albums out on streaming services. So yeah, um, just a self-taught music producer. Been editing podcasts for a long time. I used to edit Ian's old Bootstrap.fm with Andre Bintov. Matt Stauffer Love that show. Yeah. Oh, I love that show. Dave Hicking You know, I mean, when I worked at Titan, I worked on 20% Time. You know, I co-host Cheese and weather, which is an occasional podcast with fellow Titan alum, uh, Zuzana, former Titan client, Ben Holman. So yeah, I have, uh, and now I'm, you know, producer Dave for mostly technical where I edit the show. I do the video clips on social. I do all that. And now I've got a new, uh, we're adding a new one to the, to the repertoire. Uh, Ian and Aaron are starting a new podcast. So I'll be doing that as well. And for those podcasts and all my podcasts, I also do theme music. ([Time 0:52:24](https://share.snipd.com/snip/f845ca78-d50c-4751-a772-d1df5435c11d))