The Importance of Humility and Sincerity in DevRel  ## Metadata - Author: [[Community Pulse]] - Full Title: The Importance of Humility and Sincerity in DevRel - Category: #podcasts - URL: https://share.snipd.com/episode/f4abde08-174d-4d4f-bb98-895f1084930f ## Document Notes ## Highlights - **Authenticity in DevRel** - Bring your authentic self to DevRel, whether onstage or offstage. - Authenticity builds trust and resonates with the community. Transcript: Mary Thengvall Awesome. And one of the things that we've talked about a lot, Chris, like offline, whether we're at conferences or karaoke bars, it doesn't really matter, was why it's important to bring yourself To this job. Everyone says, bring yourself to your job every day. And it's like, yeah, when I was an engineer, I didn't feel like I really needed to bring 100% of my authentic self. I just needed to write code that was authentic. With this, it's a little bit different. Why, like, how do you ensure that you bring who you are to what you do? No, ([Time 0:01:34](https://share.snipd.com/snip/cb79f0d1-704c-4808-b941-eceedfc138bf)) - **Vulnerability and Empathy** - Being vulnerable and showing empathy is crucial for building connections in DevRel. - People appreciate genuine interactions over facades, so embrace vulnerability. Transcript: Chris DeMars That's a great question. And that's, that's one of the things I always talk about, whether that's in like a, like a professional setting or like if I'm doing interviews, because I'm currently doing interviews, But being, you have to be, And our buddy, Char, he always kind of gives me that compliment that, Chris, you're so real and that's why people like you. People in community can see through BS and they'll see through the fakeness, right? And if they see that, then that's going to kind of bring their perception down of what you might be able to bring to the table, whether that's in a personal setting or professional setting, Right? This is all transactional. We're not just giving all of ourselves to the community. We're also consuming that piece of the community as well. So being able to be yourself and have those enriching conversations with people and not just putting up a facade is going to let people know that a you are welcoming b you can be vulnerable Which you've seen me be vulnerable whether it's a conference talk or hallway track doesn't matter in a group of friends uh being able to show that part of you shows that you're a human And you're empathetic by being your ([Time 0:02:05](https://share.snipd.com/snip/e13497c1-3ab2-4302-894c-3432281214e5)) - **Staying Humble** - Acknowledge praise but deflect some back to others. - Share credit and make others feel good; don't hoard compliments. Transcript: Speaker 3 And you're very visible. So you do a lot of talks, you do a pod podcasts and interviews. And when it's something that's difficult for other people to be is like real and themselves. And but once you do it often, you are good at it because of practice makes perfect. I thing. I think that You start to get a lot of praise and a lot of recognition for just being yourself. How do you stay humble when you're dealing with not only all the accolades, but you're putting yourself in a lot more, let's say, times at bats where you have more opportunity to get that. So how do you deal with the deluge of all the compliments, even though you deserve them, but at the same time managing to stay humble? How do you do? Chris DeMars Yeah, no, that's another great question. You know, I try to be as humble as possible. And in those times I've tried to be humble, I've had people tell me, you know, show up. Like give yourself props, Chris, like accept that and hold it and celebrate that. Me personally, like I like to be humble. I also like to, like I was saying, accept the props and the kudos when I get them. But I know that if it's not just me that makes me me, right? It's Wesley and PJ, and everybody else that's around me that I feed off of that makes me me, right? And being able to just take that, and then even if PJ was like, oh, Demar, you're so great, I'd turn it into a joke and flip it so I can give that prop back to PJ. It's like, oh, you're so silly. You're the great one, right? So I can flip it. So now it's taken away from me, and now I'm giving that back to that person, and now they feel good about themselves because they just don't have to, like, it's going back and forth. I don't want to always just take those props. I'll take it, celebrate it, but then I'm just going to flip it back on you and tell you that you are better and you're the one that's amazing. It's not me. And then just ([Time 0:03:23](https://share.snipd.com/snip/2bc5d850-f1b5-4231-88e2-6dc7d17d1831)) - **Rejecting the Influencer Label** - Avoid "influencer" label; prefer educator or mentor. - Focus on two-way communication and helping others achieve their goals. Transcript: Mary Thengvall Carry on. I mean, it's interesting you say that because one of the things that I've faced recently, very recently, like within the last couple of hours, was a colleague saying like, well, yeah, Because you're an influencer. I think that very few people who have ever seen me speak or, or do talks, especially on the topic of DevRel that you understand that I actually, I hate the term influencer. Um, I prefer educator. I prefer, you know, whatever influencer gets too, too close to that. I'm a ninja. I'm a rock star. I'm something special. It's like, no, I have a few skills that other people don't have. And I have a lot of skills that a lot of people do have. I don't want to influence what's going on. I just want to help people get to the goals that they have. I want them to achieve the things that they want through the tools I'm talking about or the software or whatever it is. How do you feel when people kind of come? I mean, especially because when I met you, Chris, like you were Mr. Instagram, Mr. Twitter, Mr. You know, Mr. Onstage with the cool fonts and the horror tattoos. How do you kind of avoid that influencer label while still kind of low key being an influencer? Chris DeMars I'm like you, like thought leader influencer. I can't stand those terms. Right. Because it just brings the sense of like, I don't even know the word. Like it, to me, it brings a weird connotation, right? I'm not a thought leader, right? I'm not an influencer. Like go do whatever you want. If I, if I spark something in you where you want to go build something dope and you want to talk about cool things, go for it. If I have cool thoughts, cool. Take those thoughts and run with them, right? I think it's more or less like how you were saying, like, don't approach me as a, like, to consider me as a thought leader, right, or an influencer. I'm an educator. I'm a mentor. I'm a person. Like, flip the script on that because a thought leader and an influencer aren't going to have those conversations. They're just going to talk. But a mentor is going to give it back and then consume it and then give it back. A teacher, that's the whole point of being a mentor and a teacher. Narando did a talk on this yesterday. He did a talk on what not to do as a mentor. And he took two sides of the coin, a mentee and a mentor. And he talked about all the crucial things you need to do as both the mentor and the mentee. And it's extremely transactional. Being a community person, an ambassador to the community. And I got some pushback on that the other day about calling yourself an ambassador. I'm sorry. I'm a community ambassador. Like that's what I'm doing. I'm here for the community. Making sure that it's transactional is the whole part of being a mentor and the mentee, as well as a teacher. There is no transaction between a thought leader and an influencer, right? You just do it and people, you don't listen to what the other people say because you're the thought leader. Right. Right. It's a one way communication. It's a one. Yeah. It's one directional. Right. It's not bi directional. Right. So that's why I try to flip the script a little bit and say, listen, let's let's talk about something else. What can I help you with? You help me with. And let's all just learn together instead of me just throwing everything out there. ([Time 0:05:20](https://share.snipd.com/snip/5cae0f41-df1f-453e-8fd4-0b84b1d86e3d)) - **Embracing Polarization** - Be prepared to be polarizing when expressing opinions or taking stances in DevRel. - Sharing perspectives, even controversial ones, fosters meaningful dialogue and growth. Transcript: Speaker 3 I was like, I love that. That's really great. I just had a quick question about some people in terms of influencer or high personality. There's like, in order to be relatable, you have to have a certain level of transparency about who you are as a person. Which means that you also have to take stances on things. Like you have an opinion on something. You have a value system. Do you wonder, or are you concerned about being polarizing? Because once you take a stance, there's going to be people on the one side of it and people on the other. Is that something that is in your consideration of as you think about approaching how you put yourself out there? Going into the situation, I'm already polarizing. Chris DeMars I mean, we're all friends. Y'all have seen me. I'm six foot three covered in tattoos from the neck down. I'm already a polarizing person, right? I don't even have to open my mouth. I walk into a conversation and people start like, oh, gee, I don't know how I feel about this person. I do. I have to, it's a fine line. It's a fine line because there's a lot of things I take a stance on. One of them being CSS frameworks and stuff like that. Are we all doing something to be better? Yes, we are. Are we using tools that make things harder? Yes, we are. Is it something that I'm going to completely disagree with? Yes, I am. Do people get pissed off when they don't like to hear what comes out of my mouth? Yeah, they do. But I have to be able to walk that line because there's a lot of people that won't say anything that are on that side of the quote unquote aisle in web, you know, the other side of the tab, Let's say that, right, that don't want to speak up. And then you have the other side that's like, oh, yeah, inline styles for the win. But you have to be able to ride that line and not piss off too many people to the point where they're like, oh, I don't want to interact with this person anymore, but have those meaningful Conversations to actually die on that hill. ([Time 0:08:37](https://share.snipd.com/snip/aa3d0490-a9bd-495c-aa82-f23826cab0dc)) - **Finding Your Voice in DevRel** - When starting in DevRel, find your voice and build a trusted network first. - Gradually share more of yourself as your brand and community connections strengthen. Transcript: Mary Thengvall Yeah, it's good. I mean, I think that the interesting thing is I think that people, especially in DevRel, kind of have this balance of like, how much do I show? How much do I let people in? How much do I not let people in? And again, Chris is a guy that we bring on the show because he lets people in on just about everything. Um, you know, he's like, there's, there's no aspect of my life. I'm not afraid to show. I mean, I, I used to joke with him about that. His past is a juggalo and how that informed the way that he seriously, how that informed the way that he does community. I accept everything and everything is, is pertinent to what we do. But I think the question I have here is when someone's new to DevRel, how do they kind of figure out, like when you were, think back to when you first started doing this, how did you figure Out like how much do I share and how much do I just, you know, make into this DevRel person? I know for me it was a little bit different because like DevRel wasn't a job or even a term when I started doing it. It was like, I was just kind of like, okay, so I do talks and I write blog posts and I contribute to open source. Cool. That's my job. I am a community engineer. So there was less of this, you know, and also, you know, because I'm so old, like Instagram was still a new thing. So there was less of this like, you know, oh, there's a facade or there's an attitude that you have when you go up on stage. It's just like, no, you make slides and you go up and you talk. But now it's a different it's a different field. How do you what's your answer? If someone was to come to you who's like, hey, I'm new to DevRel. I want to be my authentic self. But how much do I put in? How much do I hold back? ([Time 0:12:31](https://share.snipd.com/snip/1e8a54d8-faa0-409f-a2bc-d4d69eae78cd)) - **Preparing and Recovering** - Understand your audience and the event's atmosphere before engaging. - Decompress after DevRel activities to recharge and avoid burnout. Transcript: Speaker 3 You're really good at something, it does feel effortless. At least it appears that way from the outside looking in. I was hoping that we could look behind the curtain a little bit and see exactly what are the things that you do either to prepare, recover, or to keep up with your visibility and your authenticity And be able to be humble? Like, where are you? What is your maintenance level or what is your care level or how do you prepare? Chris DeMars Well, that's a great question. I think the way I go into it, first thing is really understanding the audience and understanding like who the, like the speaker, like the level of speakers. Right. I get, I get weird. It throws me off if I'm speaking at an event and none of my friends are there. Right. Like it just, it's weird. I'm like, great. Now what? Cause like, I don't mind making friends, but are these people that I'm going to be making friends with, are they going to be like me? Right? Like, cause the law of attraction, right? I don't know, Wesley, if PJ has ever told you his and his and mine, our origin story, but it's a hilarious origin story. Mary Thengvall This is a very good story. Chris DeMars It is a very good story. And I won't get into that, but PJ's like me, right? He loves music and hockey player and loves hockey and community, right? So, you know, I was, he and I kicked it off. And then I know that PJ's friends are going to be like PJ. And if PJ's friends are like PJ, and I'm also like PJ, then his PJ's friends are also going to sort of be like me a little bit. So figuring out the landscape is a good way for me to prepare. So I know what I'm getting myself into when it comes to conferences or community. After the fact, I never knew this, but Steve Hicks, he told me years ago, he said, he said, you decompress when you're done doing your thing, Chris. And I'm like, what are you talking about? Decompress? I don't want to decompress. Because there's been times when PJ, well, Ken totally, he knows. I've seen friends of mine after they give a conversation, they're gone. You don't see them the rest of the day or for a few hours. I'm like, where the hell? Where did everybody go? And then Steve, it took Steve to tell me, Chris, you leave. And I'm like, no, I don't leave. I'm always around. But PJ can vouch for this saying, I do leave. Like once I'm done with the conversation, I'm gone. You can't, you don't know where I'm at. Like I'll go back to the hotel. I'll go to a bar. I'll just go kick it somewhere all by myself and decompress. And I never actually realized I did that until like six, seven years into my speaking career. I was like. ([Time 0:18:10](https://share.snipd.com/snip/ff343ac1-6315-4fa0-962a-aba88fb1a5e8)) - **Individuality and Company Fit** - Companies "lease" your brand and network in DevRel, making individuality valuable. - Some orgs value boisterous advocates while others prefer low-key content creators. Transcript: Mary Thengvall These are all individual traits. I want to know, in your opinion, and I know this is tough because you're a job searcher right now, do you think companies are pushing back or maybe they're really happy about the fact that A lot of people in DevRel now have very individualized. You're kind of bringing your own brand to the company. Not just, it's not just a matter of like, yeah, we're hiring you and you're doing the job for the product. At this point in time, it's like they're hiring your brand to be a part of their brand. And do you think there's a lot of pushback from that? Or do you think companies are totally fine with you being the individual that wears the t-shirt and says the things? Chris DeMars I think it's half and half, right? I bring that up in all my interviews anytime i talk about developer advocacy and dev rel as an organization if they're going to hire you they're leasing you they're leasing your brand And they're leasing your network right and they're doing that because you you have a track record of just being a loud boisterous person with a brand that makes the company stand out And does good things now and this brings up like the whole the whole community ambassador thing I was I was in an interview the other day and I kept saying that and the person the person Was like well you need to really you know figure out how you're saying that because it sounds like you're doing it just for the community. And I'm like, well, that's what this role is for, right? You have to be the community person to be able to bring and start that relationship between a product and the organization, right? Do companies like that? If you start saying, oh, well, I'm doing this for the community. You're not doing it to build your community. You already have the community, right? You already have that network of people. It's not a personal mission. It's a mission for the company because they don't have a community. So I think it really depends. It might be outputting to some organizations, but I think if the org truly understands developer relations in the role of a developer advocate, they want that person who's going to Be loud and out there. And there's a lot of our friends in the community who do just that are the ones that still have jobs and they're always doing amazing work whether that's at a conference or like quick videos Or youtube shorts they're they're just doing the thing and they're doing it loud and proud and i think it really matters but then you might have those other organizations but we don't Really want you doing this type of thing you need to keep it low-key we're high or only we hired as a developer advocate, but we don't really care about community. You need to be pumping out content. And I've been in that situation. And therefore I don't longer work at that company anymore. They don't like the boisterousness, right? They just want you to do a thing for the community. Right. Mary Thengvall Please just say these words. Here's a slide deck. Please just say these words. Chris DeMars Yep. So I think, I think it's 50, 50, but when you find that place, try to stick around because I'm getting, and this is going off on a tangent. You know, I've interviewed with a company. They're like, we don't lay people off. I'm like, we talked about this. I'm like, don't know. Don't tell me you don't lay people off. I can wake up tomorrow and not have a job. Right. And that's just what happened recently. Like I woke, I could wake up tomorrow and not have a gig i don't want to hear this we don't lay people off the retention rate is low blah blah blah there is no more job security so anyways sorry Yeah i had to get it out of my system ([Time 0:22:30](https://share.snipd.com/snip/cb6bee69-48f1-4a59-b747-264692537adc)) - **Independent Content Creation** - Creating content without an employer offers freedom but can lack direction. - Focus on self-improvement and learning publicly, even if the content isn't widely valuable. Transcript: Speaker 3 Wanted to bring me on for that one i wanted to touch on that. Like I've been in, you know, this nimble space of like still creating content or putting myself out there, but not having an employer, not having that label. The stuff that you make from when you are flying someone's flag to when you're flying your own what is the difference in those periods and is either the type the frequency or even the the Chris DeMars The tenor or the voice of that content yeah i think i think the big difference is like if you're if you're just doing it solo you're you can you the the gates are open right to do anything Mary Thengvall That you want to do um when you're have to and that and that that could kind of be a double-edged sword though too like without direction sometimes you're just creating content you're Chris DeMars Not like you're like i don't even know if there's value for this let's go right but then but it's also creating content without value still brings value to you, the writer and the creator, Because the best way to learn is to teach. And if you don't know the, the, the tool or the product or the language, but you find it super intriguing, you're like, Oh damn, this would be sweet. Like if I could figure this out and then you figure it out and you write a blog post about it, there might be a hundred other blog posts out there about that thing, right? It's not going to be the same because everybody has their own style and their own writing tone and whatever the case may be. But that might not provide value to a thousand community members because they've already read about it. But it's providing value to yourself and investing in yourself because you had to learn that thing. So now that's just one more thing that you can bring to the table. ([Time 0:26:05](https://share.snipd.com/snip/a52ae600-2789-4603-877f-aa1f9528bb3a))