The Long Shadow of 9/11  🔗 **Source:** [The Long Shadow of 9/11](https://share.snipd.com/episode/56c06762-7d46-491f-b551-f702dbc4ad53) ## Highlights - **Romans 13 Sermon Survives A Tornado** - Diana Butler Bass preached Romans 13 after a tornado devastated Wild Goose Festival, initially provoking groans from the audience. - Her reinterpretation transformed a text used to demand obedience into an emotionally powerful sermon that left people crying. Transcript: Diana Butler Bass But then I also closed the goose after there was a tornadic thunderstorm that hit the campground the day before, which was traumatizing and really violent. No one was hurt. But trees fell on cars, tents were squashed, 40 tents were carried off like they were props from the Wizard of Oz. I mean, it was just incredible. And so we picked it up, though, and we just went on and finished the festival. So my sermon was the last event. And my text was at Wild Goose, Romans 13, let everyone submit to the government. And it was, I love doing that kind of thing at Wild Goose, taking a text, what I call a text of terror against evangelicals, and then going right for it and unpacking it in a completely different Way. People really loved it. Robert P. Jones So I think I've mentioned that I did this little experiment with, I know we're going to talk about AI a little later. I think we were at least huddling about that, but that when I did this little experiment with AI Jesus, you can do this kind of chat with Jesus on AI, but you can calibrate Jesus to be Southern Baptist Jesus or UCC Jesus. And I set up two dueling Jesuses and had them have a conversation about immigration. And Southern Baptist Jesus kept going to Romans 13. Like every, no matter what question I would ask, Southern Baptist Jesus would go to Romans 13. So there you go. Diana Butler Bass Well, when I said I was going to preach on Romans 13, you should have heard. It was, you know, there were a lot of people who left because of the terrible storm, but there were several hundred people left. And you should have heard the groan in that arena because it's like, no way. I am so sorry I stayed if that's what she's going to preach on. And by the end of it, people were crying and it was really beautiful. ([Time 0:03:00](https://share.snipd.com/snip/b42eb1f9-8e99-4425-9313-2d0fc2aa493f)) - **The Emotional Highs Of A Book Launch** - Robert P. Jones described launching Backslide through exhausting interviews, bookstore appearances, and constant sales tracking. - He saw the book reach number two in Amazon’s democracy category, behind Howard Zinn’s A People’s History of the United States. Transcript: Robert P. Jones Well, I'm here. That's kind of what I feel like. It's like, okay, I'm just trying to be present for the moment. So, you know, look, it is in my hands. So here it is. Backslide, Reclaiming a Faith in a Nation After the Christian Turn Against Democracy, which I can now say without looking at the cover of the book. After this many interviews. Oh, thank you very much. There it is. In my suitcase. I had a wild goose and held it up. But, you know, but it's been great. I've had one on one with Jamar. I've had a one on one with Diana. Lots of other friends. Kristen, I knew better than to ask you because you're in the middle of your own. Kristin Kobes Du Mez Definitely do a one-on though. We can make this happen. Robert P. Jones We can make it happen, yeah. But no, it's been great. I will say this, though, that the great thing is seeing it in a bookstore. Like that, to me, you know, it's one thing to kind of see it at home and you get them a couple weeks early. But I went to my local indie bookstore, People's Book in Tacoma Park, who's handling like, you know, the signed copies and just saw it on the table there, you know. And also it's great to see like it's there there with Eddie Glaude's book. I'm going to be on stage with him at the Mississippi Book Festival in a few weeks, you know, and just kind of seeing it out there with all these other authors that I admire, that is like a Real moment, you know, of kind of just seeing it, seeing it there. I will say that the sort of the way mine's been arranged is like two weeks, three to four interviews a day, just sitting right here in this space, you know, just churning it out and talking, You know, and trying to kind of keep fresh and trying to have a real conversation and not just have the stump speech recorder turn on when you're talking. That may be my least favorite part of it, even though it's that you need to do it. Next week, I'm going to hit the road. That's actually my favorite part of talking to actual real people in the flesh, in person. And I'm going back home, I'm happy to say, to Mississippi. That's launch week on the road. I'm going to University of Southern Mississippi in Hattiesburg, Mississippi. And they're doing a lecture at the university and then a lecture at the church the next day. I'm doing a little Southern tour first. And then, Kristen, you and I are going to be together at the Decatur Book Festival in Decatur, Georgia, just suburb of Atlanta in a few weeks as well. So that part I'm looking forward to. As you all know, first week of book sales, they determine a lot about a book's trajectory. So it is all hands on deck for me until Saturday night. I've told Jody, my wife, I was like, oh man, I'm just going to get a big glass of wine, come close the business Saturday. Just feel like I'm, you know, old sports metaphor, like I want to leave it all in the field, right? And it's feeling like that now, but just got like a couple more days, and then it can be a more manageable push. But thank you to everyone here who's bought the book already, my book, Kristen's book, because it really does matter, you know, really the first couple of weeks of really the first week Of each book's sale matter a lot. So thank you. ([Time 0:08:02](https://share.snipd.com/snip/22371e25-17cf-4d41-b17d-1c32e7607bc4)) - **Books Matter Beyond Launch Week** - A book’s value is not ultimately determined by launch-week rankings or sales numbers. - The real goal is to place ideas in the world so the right readers can discover, discuss, and carry them forward. Transcript: Diana Butler Bass And then you go on. I think that after this past book, which was number 12 for me, I did not look at sales rankings on any of the online bookstores once. Kristin Kobes Du Mez Oh, good for you. See, you're a better person than we are. Robert P. Jones You were so much more spiritually mature than both of us. Diana Butler Bass Absolutely. We know that. Well, it's because it would make me sick. I mean, I don't know if it has anything to do with maturity. That hasn't stopped us. Robert P. Jones I mean, yes, absolutely. It makes you crazy. But yes, it does. Diana Butler Bass Like you're saying, pushing the browser. I can remember times doing that. And I just thought, you know, this time I'm going to relieve myself of that insanity and just do something else. And so, you know, I did my work, just kind of went on with things. Robert P. Jones So I'm just going to say here, Diana, thank you to you, because Diana wrote me a really nice note on release day saying exactly this. Like basically, the book is in the world. You've done your work. Yes. You know, the value of it is not in the numbers. And I just want to say, I'll say a public thank you here to you, Diana, for that. Because you're absolutely right and almost impossible to hold on to. Kristin Kobes Du Mez Like I said, Diana is a better person than we are. But that's very sweet. And that is a good reminder. And it is true. Books can take on a life of their own. So as much as that first week is really critical, you know, ideally what happens is the book that the point of that first week is simply to like, give it this launch, like a literal launch, Like toss it out into the world with the hope that the right people catch it, right? And when the right people catch it, then they start talking about it and sharing it. And that's ultimately what makes a book successful. And it can be a lot of people that catch it and, you know, take it to heart, which is ideal, obviously, but it can also just be a smaller number, but the right people, the people who really Needed the book. And so, and we all know that, but still there's so much pressure that that's put on that first week to give it the best chance that we can. ([Time 0:13:14](https://share.snipd.com/snip/ae17be07-1eb6-4cff-83bc-7d2dc4105c01)) - **The Books That Changed Their Lives** - Kristin Kobes Du Mez credited historical works on gender, race, and sexual violence with changing her academic direction. - Robert P. Jones highlighted John Rawls and Howard Thurman’s Jesus and the Disinherited as books that reshaped his political ethics and understanding of Jesus. Transcript: Robert P. Jones Should we all do one? That'd be fun. Kristin Kobes Du Mez Yeah, yeah. Okay. Robert P. Jones Should I start? Because I just said that. Kristin Kobes Du Mez Oh my gosh. I have so many. Honestly, graduate school was that for me. Just books in U.S. History, which is why I fully understand why the Trump administration is trying so hard to control U.S. Education, the books that are allowed to be read, the textbooks, all of that, because they know full well that just plain old history changes lives. So one of the, okay, I'm going to, I'm already going to cheat and mention two. And it was really the books that introduced me to gender and power in American history, things that we aren't supposed to talk about these days, apparently, but, and it didn't do so from A theoretical level, just historical evidence. First one was a book by the name of Good Wives, Nasty Wenches, and Anxious Patriarchs, Colonial America, the intersection of race and gender, and just very much on the ground, legal Outworkings, like just very, very practical, tangible history, but it just opened my eyes. And it was that book that made me change my course of study from religious and intellectual history to studying gender. And then honestly, so many books on the civil rights movement and movies coming of age in Mississippi, but Danielle McGuire's book, The Dark End of the Street on the role of sexual violence In the civil rights era and pre-civil rights era South and how women mobilized behind the big names like Martin Luther King and so on. The men, it was women, not just Rosa Parks, but many others who were organizing. And it's because they were first organizing to address the rampant sexual abuse of Black women at the hands of white men, including law enforcement, right? Books like that, you don't need CRT. You don't need any theory. Just read these books and it will profoundly change the way you understand our country. Okay, that was a lot, but I could go on, right? Books change lives. Robbie, how about you? Robert P. Jones Yeah, so I think grad school for me too, and I will say this about, I was doing a podcast on theological education a couple of weeks ago, and I remember recalling advice that I got from a Professor of mine at seminary when I was thinking about going to grad school, who said about grad school, he said, look, if you're going there as a means to an end, like to get a job, like, I can't advise you to do it because the job market is terrible, right? If you want to go because it's going to change the way you see the world and understand your place in it, then absolutely go for it, right? And at the end of the day, that's why I went. And he was absolutely right. Early books, actually by a political theorist. It was John Rawls's theory of justice that for me was, I was realized like, oh, you could take this kind of instinct about the golden rule and then be like really rigorous in how you think About its social implications, political implications. And that's really what that book does. It's really an amazing book. He also worked on that book from 1956 to 1971, right? So it's also that kind of book. You can go back and read an article he wrote in 56 and then see the book that came out in 71. It was already 20 years old when I read it, but it was still like making waves there. And then I think, you know, the other book that I actually write about in Backslide is Jesus and the Disinherited by Howard Thurman, which is another book that changed. If that one changed the way I thought about how you could think rigorously about a simple insight like the golden rule and think about its policy implications. This one was a way of rethinking Jesus for me, right? Because it was about, and the Bible in some ways, Jesus, you know, is the person who's with those whose backs are against the wall. That's the way Howard Thurman puts it in the book and tells a story about, you know, his grandmother who was enslaved, who loved the Bible, but would never let him read from Paul. She couldn't read herself and she wanted him to read, but wanted to just read me what Jesus said. That's what I want to stay. That's where I want to stay. ([Time 0:17:55](https://share.snipd.com/snip/61ab9c1a-c5c1-4064-9836-f56bbb230e27)) - **Meeting The Writer Who Changed Her Career** - Kathleen Norris’s The Cloister Walk showed Diana Butler Bass how memoir, theology, spirituality, and the Christian year could reach broad audiences. - Years later, Bass discovered Norris reading Scripture at a Hawaii church and became friends with the writer who had shaped her career. Transcript: Diana Butler Bass Diana? You know, it's funny to mention books in graduate school, because there were so many books in graduate school. It's like every week professors were throwing at you these amazing, transformative, you know, creative works. You know, there was a little one that meant a lot to me, William McLaughlin's Revival's Awakenings and Reform, University of Chicago Press, 1979. So I was reading it quite a few years after it was published. It introduced me to the idea that there were potentially patterns in American history. And I found that to be a pretty compelling idea. How does history really repeat itself? And what kinds of things repeat themselves in such way that they become part of a culture or society? So, I really like that book. I quote it a lot on the road. One of my entire books was sort of a reworking of that. Probably the single book that changed the trajectory of my entire writing career and everything I wanted to do was a book called The Cloister Walk by Kathleen Norris, who wrote this Sort of memoir-y kind of book about spending a year in a Catholic monastery in Minnesota. And she took her readers through the Christian year. Gosh, doesn't that sound familiar? Kathleen is a writer. She's a beautiful, amazing, professional writer. Her biggest books were right around the turn of the year 2000. And I remember reading that book and just thinking about what a masterwork it was of memoir, spirituality, theology, and that it was all right there on the front table at Barnes and Noble. That if somebody read that book, they'd understand Catholic theology, they'd understand the Christian year, they'd understand all kinds of things. And I thought, that's what I want to do with the rest of my life. And she became a real hero of mine. I thought I would be okay if I never wrote another academic book again in my life and only wrote one book that was as great as Cloyster Walk. I would think I had achieved what I was called to do here. So. Kristin Kobes Du Mez I did not know that about you, but as soon as you said Cloyster Walk, I could see how your career has kind of been mapped onto that path forward. It makes so much sense because that is, in fact, the kind of work that you're that you've been writing. And I think it's so needed for this moment. And even with a beautiful year, right, that won the Wilbur Award, which is like spiritual kind of work religious work but with a secular publisher right to reach those audiences so so Diana Butler Bass For me there were many graduate school books that changed who I am and how I think but then there were that was this one book from just an amazing person who I believe she was the director Of a creative writing program for a while. I feel really honored that I've gotten to know her through the years. And I was in a church in Hawaii many years ago. I arrived very early in the morning to the sacristy because I was, you know, preaching. In Hawaii, they have 7.30 in the morning services at mainline churches, which is like an insane thing. And so, I got there like 7 a.m., and I'm going to preach at 7.30 in the morning. And I looked at the program, and I said to the person who was helping me get the altar ready, I said, look at that. The person who's going to read the Bible for me this morning is named Kathleen Norris, just like the writer. And the person looked at me and said, well, it is Kathleen Norris, the writer. And someone had failed to tell me that she was actually a member of their congregation. She was sitting there in the front row. I was preaching a sermon on the prodigal son. And I was just going, I think I'm scared to death. It's like my hero is in the front row. It was like if a James Baldwin showed up for one of Robbie's sermons or something. So eventually the priest at the church told me, yeah, we tend not to tell visiting preachers that this could happen because it usually does scare them. It's terrifying. But she took me out to lunch and we wound up being friends. It was a great part of the journey, my journey, to get to know the hero who had changed my life as a writer. ([Time 0:22:10](https://share.snipd.com/snip/30e09626-51e1-452d-a1cf-1c3288692d03)) - **Remembering The Morning America Changed** - The panel reflected on the twenty-fifth anniversary of September 11 and recalled how suddenly ordinary routines became scenes of national crisis. - Robert P. Jones was teaching at Emory when students’ phones began lighting up and the group watched the second plane hit. Transcript: Kristin Kobes Du Mez Yeah, we should. This is, we are also marking this week, the 25th anniversary of the September 11 attacks, right? So, you know, 25 years out, my goodness, we can all remember where we were on that day. I have found that as the kind of commemorations are airing and the reminders of that day, I've been having kind of a hard time, just not really wanting to go there. I know that there's importance in commemoration and to do this communally and nationally. I also find, you know, it still feels raw. It still feels hard to look directly at this event, the violence, the suffering, and the aftermath. And I remember, you know, in the days after, just feeling like the world had changed. And it certainly had, but we had no idea the ways in which the world would change in the years ahead. So how are you either commemorating or processing this really important anniversary of a formative event in our country's history? I want to hear Robbie. Robert P. Jones Yeah, I was teaching a class at Emory University in religious ethics when the news broke and everybody's phones started going off. So I always back about that. And we all gathered in the student seminary lounge, like to kind of watch what was going on, you know, was there when the second plane hit the building. So that's a kind of vivid, you know, memory there. And then like, you know, the other things that come to mind is I had a professor at the law school who was Muslim who lived in my neighborhood and being scared to death that he and his wife Would, you know, take their traditional after dinner walks in this suburb of Atlanta and really worried, right, that somebody would just attack them. So I'm thinking about that. ([Time 0:26:52](https://share.snipd.com/snip/c2df845b-b815-46f5-99f9-d96bc88b353f)) - **How Leadership Deepened Islamophobia** - Robert P. Jones found that Americans remain divided over whether Islam conflicts with American values, but partisan differences have dramatically widened. - Republican agreement rose to 76 percent versus 30 percent among Democrats, showing how political leadership shapes religious attitudes. Transcript: Robert P. Jones And then, you know, we've been also, I think, sad about where the data has gone. I think it's the last thing I'll say, you know, know, we've been tracking attitudes about Islam at PRI over the years. And what we have seen is that like a one question we've asked about whether this talking point you hear sometimes about Islam being incompatible with democracy. Right. We've asked about that, whether people think that Islam is at odds with American values and way of life. The country's basically divided on that question and has been divided largely. Since we've been tracking the data, here's what's notable. The parties are much farther apart than they were. So even though the general population hasn't moved, the two parties have gone like this on the question, right? And today, you know, it's 76% of Republicans who agree with that statement, and it's only 30% of Democrats who agree with that statement. And, you know, this is largely taking cues from the leadership of the Republican Party, and particularly the Trump and the MAGA movement over the last 10 years, right? And we just see that funneling through. And at the 10th anniversary of 9-11, two parties were only 10 points, I'm sorry, 20 points apart. Today, they're 46 points apart in their attitudes. ([Time 0:28:44](https://share.snipd.com/snip/4bd60ed7-d4ec-4a6f-9c3f-c06a4eeaca53)) - **How Fear Turned Solidarity Into Revenge** - The panel argued that fear after September 11 enabled civil-liberties erosion, surveillance, war, and the political dehumanization of Muslims. - They connected the United States’ revenge-driven response to later warnings that Israel should not repeat the same mistake after October 7. Transcript: Kristin Kobes Du Mez And also thinking about, you know, you talked, about the ripple effects, and they're almost all bad. But in that moment, just really feeling such a strong sense of patriotism and care and love for the victims, for the families, for the country, and where that led. You know, I'm not always the most hopeful person today, but looking back, I think I was very naive and thinking that, you know, this is going to draw us together, not realizing that history Teaches us otherwise, that so often a sense of threat is what drives people apart because it is such an effective weapon to drive people apart. It can be weaponized so easily. And that's exactly what has happened. And, you know, we can talk about the erosion of civil liberties, rise of a surveillance state, all of it justified because of this threat. And we are now, you know, living in that aftermath. And so it's kind of, it's multiple layers of sadness, I would say. Diana Butler Bass I thought one of the most telling moments in this history, because I asked myself that same question, when did that goodwill, which was like, people just were coming into churches, Crying and sitting there, our staff, we couldn't send anybody ever home, because somebody had to be in the building all the time, people wanted to pray and process things. It was just amazing. And so all that goodwill, when did that turn? And I've made a case on several occasions that has gotten me in trouble, but I nevertheless think it's true. W. Bush went up to the pile and got out there with the bullhorn and threatened revenge rather than trying to think of something more creative to say, perhaps. They're going to hear us, you know, across the world. We're going to, you know, we're going to get even for this. Why I think that was so important and why it was so bad is that, I don't know if you all remember this, but after October 7th, or 8th in Israel, after the attacks of Hamas on Israel and Biden Talked to Netanyahu, Biden actually said to Netanyahu, don't let this terrorist attack do to you what 9-11 did to us. And that was, of course, what Netanyahu completely disregarded and actually did essentially got on a pile functionally with a bullhorn and said, vengeance is going to be, you know, Ours. And we're going to, you know, we're going to go and kill all the people who did this to us. And I thought to myself, you know, who in my lifetime in, you know, basically 22, 23 years apart, I watched the possibility because the first moment of that attack against Israel, you Saw people being sympathetic to Israel who were never sympathetic to Israel. People felt for the young people who were killed at that music festival. People felt for the families whose lives were tortured and lost, and those who had been taken captive. And they squandered that so quickly with this other brutal response. And we did too in the United States. We took the goodwill of the world and we squandered it. And that to me, I never thought I'd see two moments that were so rawly inhumane followed by such rawly stupid responses when another path was always possible ([Time 0:35:46](https://share.snipd.com/snip/7cfa97d1-41e4-445d-899e-634ffb65e0c2)) - **How 9/11 Built A Fear-Based Security State** - Homeland Security and ICE emerged rapidly from post-9/11 fears, with Somali refugees among the first communities targeted. - The panel linked this institutional response to broader Islamophobia, including violence against Sikh Americans mistaken for Muslims. Transcript: Robert P. Jones So, you know, so I think, again, that kind of leadership really does matter. Kristin Kobes Du Mez Because so, you know, some kind of mixed message from George W. Bush. But what was interesting is I saw somebody on the Christian right today posting an image of exactly that moment that you talked about, Diana, and saying, wasn't this like the greatest Moment ever when you push with the bullhorn, right? So that's an interesting, you know, commentary where you see that as lamentable and other people are holding it up as, oh my, you know, that was just great, wasn't it? And I think that a figure that may be missing from this timeline and this narrative is Dick Cheney, right? If we want to talk about influence, you know, drawing us into the Iraq war, we can think about why, and we can think about the misinformation there, how this played into the hands of defense Contractors, right? Who benefits from war and endless wars? And, you know, I think that's a question we should be asking today. Who benefits from the war in Iran? We certainly aren't. The Iranian people aren't. Who's actually coming out ahead here? Well, we're, you know, just blowing through our munitions stockpiles, making our national security increasingly vulnerable. And, you know, who benefits defense industry here and, you know, among the oil companies to oil and the oil. Right. So, you know, it's it just it's it's hard not to be cynical end of the day. Diana Butler Bass Yeah. And it's interesting. I think that I think part of the the conversation, that we would have in a bigger sort of frame is he, I mean, he's right about how the attitudes didn't show up until 10 years later. But what were they saying about Obama when he was running for president, which was not 10 years later? That was only, what, six, seven years later. The big rap was, oh, he's a secret Muslim, Barack Hussein Obama. And then, as soon as he was president and made overtures to some of these countries, it was like, look, he's going to go and reward the people who are really his co-religionists. And there were all those fake pictures of him dressed up like a mullah. And it was really interesting. So while the numbers don't show the divide, what was clearly true is the extremes of the Republican Party were already shifting towards that anti-Islamic stance as early as Obama's First run for president. So the number doesn't show, but the cultural sort of hatred and the dehumanization of Islam is showing up in those more extreme quarters of political life fairly early or quickly, I Would say. Sometimes things don't show up in the numbers, but that they're showing up in cultural patterns that are having impact. And I think that the anti-Islam peace was really pretty big in and around the election of Obama. It didn't mean he didn't get elected. He did get elected. And it's worth saying that John McCain actually defended Obama against those charges, against kind of, you know, he's, no, a good christian guy he's a family man you know don't say all These terrible things about him so you have both bush and then mccain is coming to the defense essentially of american muslims in different ways but you also saw there was this slow and Steady empowerment of the the most parts of the Republican Party around this Islamophobia. Robert P. Jones And there was that whole Sharia law push, like passing bills against Sharia law, non-existent Sharia law, right? It was just a strategy. Those were messaging bills, right, designed to kind of get the scare tactics out. It's not lost to me that the Department of Homeland Security was formed eight days after 9-11. It was very quick. We don't get the Department of Homeland Security and we don't get ICE without 9-11. Right. And so it was this kind of fear, you know, reaction, right, that then gets out. I mean, can you imagine that time that if somebody had said, oh, yeah, we're going to create this little thing called Immigration and Customs Enforcement, and it's eventually going To get billions of dollars of funding? Kristin Kobes Du Mez Yeah, people warned us, people warned us, right? But we traded freedom for, quote unquote, security. And look where we are now. Robert P. Jones Yeah. And then the other thing to mention is that, you know, and where did ICE roll into and what communities did they target right out of the box? Somalis. Yeah. And what's distinctive about the Somali refugee community? They're almost all Muslim. They're brown skin and they're Muslim. And so I think that's no accident, right? That that was the group that was targeted right out of the box from the agency that was created out of the Islamophobic fears of 9-11. Diana Butler Bass I think it's also in 9-11 worth remembering the first American to lose their life on American soil in the war on terror not not of course the people in the towers that that's that's the Event itself. But following the event was a Sikh man who was filling his car up with gas in a gas station in Mesa, Arizona. And when someone saw him in his turban, which is what Sikhs wear, or Sikhs wear religiously, they thought he was a Muslim and yelled Allah Akbar and shot the guy. ([Time 0:40:38](https://share.snipd.com/snip/b878675e-001b-41ce-a7d7-ffd1d2a900ee)) - **Small Signs Of Resistance Still Matter** - The panel identified small acts of institutional resistance as meaningful signs of democratic and moral integrity. - Examples included the Washington Sun launching independent coverage and Archbishop Paul Coakley urging Trump to stop mass deportations of Haitians. Transcript: Kristin Kobes Du Mez So that brings us up to, you know, our contemporary moment. There's been, you know, as there is every week, just wild things happening in the Trump administration. We had the Trump of Palooza, which seemed, I mean, I didn't hear much about it. It's just, you know, I think there's a lot of Trump fatigue and this Trump looks at his numbers and thinks, let's, you know, have a rally and make it all about me and that'll fix things. And not working for him decides to promise $5,000 to every American if Republicans hold Congress. Right. Yeah. Do we have laws against that? Because anyway, but we have a couple of glimmers of light here. I'll mention one, Robbie, you had mentioned one as well. What caught my eye today is the announcement of a new newspaper in your hometown, the Washington Sun, put together from journalists who were fired or pushed out, left the Washington Post. And so this is going to cover the nation's capital. I'm excited for this for a couple of reasons. I'm excited to see what kind of news comes out of that when we've seen the collapse, the cowardice of so many other news organizations. Hey, we live in a capitalist society. Where are the people taking advantage of the opportunity, right? Meeting the demand because so many of us want hard-hitting, honest news coverage of the things that are happening, not sugarcoating things, right? Clear coverage and analysis. And so I'm excited to see this new paper step in to meet the need and hope it inspires other opportunists out there to also cater to the more than 50 percent of Americans who are deeply unhappy With this nation's leadership. So that's my little ray of sunlight. How about you, Robbie? Robert P. Jones Well, I will say I haven't actually looked at the roster to see who's who's there. I'm guessing I know some refugees from the Washington Post. Here's something that I don't have any inside knowledge of this. But I just want to point out that the Washington Post old motto was democracy dies in darkness. Yeah. And they have named this the Washington sun. So kudos to them for that little move. Not lost on me. And I'm guessing not lost on the folks still at what's left of the Washington Post here. The other thing I'll just draw some attention to is I do think there's some, again, these are little signs. They're not a tidal wave. But these days, I'm willing to take all the little signs of resistance and integrity that I can get. One of them I will point to is that the U.S. Catholic Bishops Conference president, Archbishop Paul Coakley of Oklahoma City, and let me just say he is no liberal, right? He is known to be very, very conservative, issued a letter on Tuesday urging Donald Trump to cease the mass deportation of Haitian immigrants. And this is what he wrote. As citizens of this great country, we have been entrusted with a tremendous moral responsibility. And this is true most of all for you as our head of state, Mr. President. To this end, I respectfully ask, what good is the immense wealth, prosperity, and influence with which we have been blessed as a nation, if not used in service of our humanity? So, you know, the Bishop's Conference has been remarkably silent through all kinds of really outrages by this president. So to see them standing up for anything, I'm really welcoming this and to really put it on moral, rightly, put it on really the moral ground. So I'm just going to hold that up as a little ray of light this week. ([Time 0:46:52](https://share.snipd.com/snip/bb496a66-4508-4991-ac2d-68212ce2ae48))