The Modern WooCommerce Playbook Safe Iteration & Scaling

The Modern WooCommerce Playbook: Safe Iteration & Scaling 🔗 **Source:** [The Modern WooCommerce Playbook: Safe Iteration & Scaling](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ykZJawPzgw) > [!note]+ Document Notes > tags: [woocommerce, ecommerce, modernization, wordpress, theme-switching] > author: WebDev Studios > source: YouTube > reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ykZJawPzgw > date created: 2024-12-28 14:30 > > # 🏷️ Title: The Modern WooCommerce Playbook: Safe Iteration & Scaling >  ## 🧰 Action Inbox - [H1] Evaluate WooCommerce checkout experience with CheckoutWC plugin — 15:45 #checkout - [H2] Enable HPOS (High Performance Order System) for mature stores — 25:30 #performance - [H3] Consider Theme Switcher Pro for iterative modernization — 35:20 #modernization ## 🧭 Table of Contents - [📝 Summary](#-summary) - [📖 Main Content](#-main-content) - [🗒️ Notes](#️-notes) - [📚 References](#-references) - [🗣️ Paraphrase](#️-paraphrase) - [📰 Newsletter](#-newsletter) - [✅ Action Items](#-action-items) - [🧪 Hypotheses](#-hypotheses) - [📊 Methodology](#-methodology) - [❓ Questions](#-questions) - [🔮 Future Research](#-future-research) - [💡 Implications](#-implications) - [🧠 Learning Styles Assessment](#-learning-styles-assessment) - [📊 Accessibility Assessment](#-accessibility-assessment) - [🌍 DEIB Assessment](#-deib-assessment) - [✅ Logical Validity](#-logical-validity) - [🛡️ DARVO Analysis](#-darvo-analysis) - [🎯 Conclusion](#-conclusion) ### 🔗 References - [WooCommerce](https://woocommerce.com) - [CheckoutWC](https://checkoutwc.com) ## 📝 Summary - WebDev Studios and Mode Effect discuss WooCommerce modernization strategies without platform switching - WooCommerce powers 9% of all websites and 35% of e-commerce sites globally - Key pain points include plugin bloat, poor checkout UX, and host compatibility issues - Theme Switcher Pro enables iterative modernization by switching themes per page/section - Agencies can deliver faster results through selective updates rather than complete rebuilds ## 📖 Main Content Two experienced WooCommerce agencies share strategies for modernizing e-commerce stores without the panic of complete platform migrations. The discussion covers when WooCommerce excels (complex products, subscriptions, customization needs), common revenue-draining issues (checkout friction, plugin bloat, host mismatches), and practical solutions for iterative improvement. A key focus is avoiding the "shiny object syndrome" that leads to over-engineered sites with poor performance. ## 🗒️ Notes #### ⏱️ [00:00](https://youtu.be/6ykZJawPzgw?t=0) — [H1] Introduction to Modern WooCommerce Strategy - Key idea: Modernization doesn't require platform switching or complete rebuilds - Evidence: "WebDev Studios 18th year, Mode Effect 15 years - collectively 20+ years WooCommerce experience" #### ⏱️ [03:45](https://youtu.be/6ykZJawPzgw?t=225) — [H2] WooCommerce Market Dominance - Key idea: WooCommerce powers massive portion of global e-commerce - Evidence: "9% of all websites run WooCommerce, 35% of e-commerce sites, built on 43% of internet (WordPress)" #### ⏱️ [06:20](https://youtu.be/6ykZJawPzgw?t=380) — [H3] Modernization Without Panic Philosophy - Key idea: Knee-jerk platform switching often addresses wrong problems - Evidence: "There are no perfect platforms - success depends on implementation quality" #### ⏱️ [09:15](https://youtu.be/6ykZJawPzgw?t=555) — [H1] WooCommerce Sweet Spot Analysis - Key idea: Complex products and subscriptions favor WooCommerce over Shopify - Evidence: "Simple t-shirts with 6 sizes, 3 colors - launch on Shopify. Complex variations, add-ons, subscriptions - WooCommerce excels" #### ⏱️ [12:30](https://youtu.be/6ykZJawPzgw?t=750) — [H2] Revenue Threshold for Platform Switching - Key idea: Shopify costs scale aggressively; WooCommerce becomes cost-effective at scale - Evidence: "Shopify Plus ~$3000/month, 70-80% functionality ceiling vs WooCommerce unlimited customization" #### ⏱️ [15:45](https://youtu.be/6ykZJawPzgw?t=945) — [H1] Checkout Experience as Revenue Killer - Key idea: Out-of-box WooCommerce checkout significantly underperforms - Evidence: "WooCommerce checkout is just not great - CheckoutWC plugin provides Shopify-like UX with A/B testing" #### ⏱️ [18:20](https://youtu.be/6ykZJawPzgw?t=1100) — [H2] Plugin Bloat and Performance Impact - Key idea: Shiny object syndrome destroys site speed, especially during checkout - Evidence: "Cart and checkout processes can't be cached - performance problems compound with plugin bloat" #### ⏱️ [21:10](https://youtu.be/6ykZJawPzgw?t=1270) — [H3] Hosting Specialization Requirements - Key idea: E-commerce needs specialized hosting understanding vs regular WordPress - Evidence: "E-commerce has uncacheable interactions - need WordPress hosts with WooCommerce expertise" #### ⏱️ [25:30](https://youtu.be/6ykZJawPzgw?t=1530) — [H1] HPOS Performance Breakthrough - Key idea: High Performance Order System provides major speed improvements - Evidence: "HPOS massive wins for subscription stores with daily automated orders" #### ⏱️ [28:45](https://youtu.be/6ykZJawPzgw?t=1725) — [H2] When to Hire Professional Help - Key idea: DIY approach works initially but expert consultation prevents costly mistakes - Evidence: "Revenue threshold where you can afford help means undoing DIY implementations" #### ⏱️ [32:15](https://youtu.be/6ykZJawPzgw?t=1935) — [H3] Agency vs In-House Developer Economics - Key idea: Agency teams provide better ROI than single developer salaries - Evidence: "Sub-$100k budget gets generalist vs agency team of specialists with redundancy" #### ⏱️ [35:20](https://youtu.be/6ykZJawPzgw?t=2120) — [H1] Theme Switcher Pro Demo - Key idea: Iterative modernization through selective theme switching per page - Evidence: "Switch WooCommerce to Storefront theme while keeping rest of site on Twenty Twenty-Five" #### ⏱️ [38:40](https://youtu.be/6ykZJawPzgw?t=2320) — [H2] Page Builder Compatibility - Key idea: Theme Switcher works with Beaver Builder, Divi, and block themes - Evidence: "Compatible with page builders - can selectively replace templates for performance" #### ⏱️ [41:30](https://youtu.be/6ykZJawPzgw?t=2490) — [H3] Project Delivery Speed Advantages - Key idea: Results in weeks vs months through selective modernization - Evidence: "Landing more projects with switcher process - results in 1-2 weeks vs traditional rebuilds" ## 📚 References - [WooCommerce Official](https://woocommerce.com) - [CheckoutWC Plugin](https://checkoutwc.com) - [Theme Switcher Pro](https://themeswitcher.com) - [WebDev Studios](https://webdevstudios.com) - [Mode Effect](https://modeeffect.com) ## 🗣️ Paraphrase - WooCommerce dominates e-commerce with 35% market share, making platform switching decisions critical for store owners - The "modernization panic" often leads to unnecessary platform migrations when optimization would solve underlying issues - Revenue-killing problems include poor checkout UX, plugin bloat, and inappropriate hosting rather than platform limitations - Professional help becomes valuable when DIY stores reach revenue thresholds requiring undoing accumulated technical debt ## 📰 Newsletter **WooCommerce Modernization: Evolve Without Revolution** Tired of hearing "just switch to Shopify" every time your WooCommerce store feels sluggish? Two veteran agencies share a smarter approach to e-commerce evolution. **The Real Numbers**: WooCommerce powers 35% of all e-commerce sites globally - that's not a platform in decline, that's a platform worth optimizing. **Quick Wins Available Now**: - Replace checkout experience with CheckoutWC for Shopify-like UX - Enable HPOS (High Performance Order System) for subscription stores - Audit plugin bloat - every unused plugin slows your checkout - Verify your host actually understands WooCommerce (not just WordPress) **Revolutionary Tool**: Theme Switcher Pro lets you modernize page-by-page instead of rebuilding everything. Switch your shop to a modern theme while keeping your content pages unchanged. Resources: [CheckoutWC](https://checkoutwc.com), [Theme Switcher Pro](https://themeswitcher.com), [WooCommerce Docs](https://woocommerce.com/documentation/) ## ✅ Action Items #### WordPress - Core Performance: Investigate WooCommerce-specific performance bottlenecks and optimization opportunities - Plugins: Review checkout experience plugins and standardization opportunities - Hosting: Develop WooCommerce hosting requirements documentation - Community: Share iterative modernization strategies in WordCamp talks #### WooCommerce - Core: Improve out-of-box checkout experience based on user feedback - Performance: Promote HPOS adoption through documentation and migration tools - Themes: Develop theme switching best practices and compatibility standards - Education: Create modernization guides focusing on iterative improvements #### Agencies - Process: Develop iterative modernization service offerings vs full rebuilds - Tools: Evaluate Theme Switcher Pro for client project efficiency - Sales: Position optimization consulting before platform migration discussions - Training: Upskill teams on WooCommerce performance optimization techniques ## 🧪 Hypotheses - Iterative modernization reduces project risk and time-to-value compared to complete rebuilds - Plugin bloat correlates more strongly with checkout abandonment than platform choice - WooCommerce performance issues stem from implementation rather than platform limitations - Theme switching technology enables new business models for agency services ### 📊 Methodology - A/B test checkout experiences: default WooCommerce vs CheckoutWC implementations - Performance analysis: plugin count correlation with checkout completion rates - Cost analysis: WooCommerce + agency vs Shopify Plus + apps at various revenue levels - User experience testing: iterative theme updates vs complete redesigns ### ❓ Questions - What specific plugin combinations create the most performance degradation in WooCommerce? - How does checkout abandonment rate vary between WooCommerce default vs optimized implementations? - At what revenue threshold do WooCommerce total cost of ownership advantages become significant? ### 🔮 Future Research - Comprehensive WooCommerce performance benchmarking across hosting providers - Plugin ecosystem impact analysis on e-commerce conversion rates - Theme switching adoption patterns and business impact measurement ### 💡 Implications - Practice: Agencies can offer faster, lower-risk modernization services through iterative approaches - Education: Store owners need better guidance on when to optimize vs migrate platforms - Policy: WordPress community should develop WooCommerce-specific hosting standards - Funding: Investment in WooCommerce UX improvements could significantly impact market retention ### 🧠 Learning Styles Assessment Reading level estimate: 12th Grade #### 👀 Visual learners - Present: Live demo of Theme Switcher Pro functionality, before/after comparisons - Improve: Performance charts, cost comparison graphics, architecture diagrams #### 🔊 Aural learners - Present: Full webinar format with expert discussion and Q&A - Improve: Audio-only version, podcast format for mobile consumption #### 🗣️ Verbal learners - Present: Clear explanations of technical concepts, real-world examples - Improve: Glossary of WooCommerce terms, analogy-driven explanations #### 🧩 Kinesthetic learners - Present: Live demonstration, step-by-step implementation guidance - Improve: Hands-on labs, checklist-based optimization guides #### 🧠 Logical learners - Present: Market share statistics, cost-benefit analysis, systematic approach - Improve: Decision trees for platform choices, ROI calculators #### 🧑‍🤝‍🧑 Social learners - Present: Two-expert format with collaborative insights, community references - Improve: Discussion forums, peer review opportunities, case study sharing #### 🧘‍♀️ Solitary learners - Present: Comprehensive resource links, self-paced learning approach - Improve: Individual assessment tools, private consultation options #### 🌿 Naturalistic learners - Present: Ecosystem thinking about WordPress/WooCommerce relationships - Improve: Platform lifecycle analogies, sustainable growth strategies ### 📊 Accessibility Assessment #### Screen reader semantics - Present: Clear heading hierarchy, descriptive speaker introductions - Improve: Transcript timestamps, alt text for visual demos #### Keyboard navigation - Present: Standard video player controls accessible via keyboard - Improve: Chapter markers, skip-to-section functionality #### Contrast and readability - Present: Clear speaker visibility, readable presentation slides - Improve: High-contrast demo environments, larger text in screen shares #### Text resizing and reflow - Present: Video scales appropriately across devices - Improve: Responsive transcript layout, mobile-optimized viewing #### Media and captions - Present: Full transcript provided in source material - Improve: Professional captions, audio descriptions for visual demos #### Forms and interactions - Present: Simple chat interface for questions - Improve: Accessible question submission, clear feedback mechanisms ### 🌍 DEIB Assessment #### Cultural breadth - Present: Focus on global WooCommerce market, international e-commerce considerations - Improve: Multi-currency examples, regional hosting considerations #### Inclusive language - Present: Professional, jargon-explained terminology throughout - Improve: More diverse business examples, gender-neutral language consistently #### Neurodiversity support - Present: Clear structure, repeated key concepts, multiple explanation approaches - Improve: More frequent summaries, consistent visual formatting #### Representation - Present: Two experienced professionals sharing knowledge openly - Improve: Diverse case studies, varied business types and owners #### Psychological safety - Present: Supportive tone, acknowledgment of DIY approaches, no-judgment consulting - Improve: Clear failure-safety messaging, risk mitigation emphasis ### ✅ Logical Validity #### Strong reasoning - Deductive strength: Market data supports WooCommerce viability conclusions - Inductive strength: Agency experience generalizes to broader implementation patterns - Causal reasoning: Clear connections between plugin bloat and performance issues - Analogical strength: Appropriate comparisons between platforms and business contexts #### Fallacies - Appeal to authority: "20+ years experience" - valid expertise but experience alone doesn't guarantee correctness - False dilemma: Occasionally frames choices as WooCommerce vs Shopify without mentioning other platforms #### Tone of voice - Overall tone: Collaborative, educational, professional with friendly expertise-sharing approach ### 🛡️ DARVO Analysis - Deny: No denial patterns present - transparent about platform limitations - Attack: No attacking of accusers - respectful toward other platforms and approaches - Reverse victim/offender: No victim/offender dynamics present - Emotional cues and rhetoric: Professional advocacy for iterative approaches without manipulation ## 🎯 Conclusion WooCommerce modernization doesn't require platform abandonment or complete rebuilds. Through strategic optimization - improved checkouts, plugin auditing, proper hosting, and iterative theme improvements - store owners can achieve modernization goals while preserving their investment and avoiding migration risks. The key is addressing root causes rather than symptoms, and leveraging new tools like Theme Switcher Pro that enable gradual, safe evolution of e-commerce experiences. ## 🧱 Refactor --- ## Full Transcript [00:04] Whatever. [00:07] Hey everybody, welcome back to another [00:09] WebDev Studios webinar. We got a fun one [00:11] today, let me tell you, because we got [00:13] my man, one of my buddies, Cody L on [00:16] this, and we're talking the modern Woo [00:18] Commerce playbook, safe iteration [00:20] scaling. We're going to dig into Woo [00:21] Commerce. We're going to dig in a lot of [00:22] options. Cody's Cody and I have been [00:24] working on Woo Commerce really since the [00:25] start of Woo Commerce. So, we've got a [00:27] lot of uh a lot of stuff to dig into [00:29] today. So, let's get to it. First, who [00:32] are we? Well, I'm with WebDev Studios. [00:34] Cody's with his company agency, Mode [00:36] Effect. Uh, we're in our 18th year at [00:38] WebDev Studios. I'm a co-founder and [00:40] partner. So, we've been building [00:41] enterprise large uh WordPress focused [00:44] websites for a long time, including Woo [00:46] Commerce. A lot of work with Woo [00:47] Commerce over the years. Um, so really, [00:49] uh, excited to kind of dig in today and [00:51] share some of our experiences. Um, uh, [00:54] yeah. So, it's going to be fun. And of [00:55] course, Cody, I'll let you introduce [00:57] yourself. Absolutely. Thanks for having [00:59] me on, Brad. So, Cody Landerfeld, [01:02] co-founder at ModC and uh gosh, I think [01:06] collectively we've been around maybe 20 [01:08] years or so. Um I myself started my [01:11] agency back 15 years. I'm going to give [01:13] you way more information than you asked [01:14] for, but anyhow, we are uh primarily [01:18] focused on helping online stores with [01:21] their development needs and also digital [01:24] marketing. So we kind of have the full [01:27] surround of services for online stores [01:29] and people doing e-commerce and a big [01:33] part of that is on WooCommerce. So we're [01:34] excited to come together and uh help you [01:37] all and give some uh tidbits of advice [01:40] on the platform. [01:42] >> Absolutely. So what are we talking about [01:45] today? Woo. WooCommerce.com. If you're [01:48] not familiar with it, I'm guessing if [01:50] you're watching this, you probably are. [01:51] But we want to talk a little bit about [01:53] what we're going to cover today and then [01:54] we'll dive into some some data around [01:56] Woo Commerce and kind of get after it. [01:58] So, first we'll give a real quick [01:59] overview of Woo Commerce. Again, we're [02:01] assuming you kind of have an [02:02] understanding of what it is. We'll talk [02:03] a little bit about the numbers and [02:04] really how big of a platform it is. Uh [02:07] modernization without panic. This is [02:09] going to be a fun one, right? A lot of [02:10] people are seeing new things out there, [02:12] new shiny objects around performance and [02:14] scaling and you know what should they be [02:15] looking at? What should we do if we need [02:17] to modernize? This is all, you know, [02:19] flip it upside down and start over or [02:20] are there better ways to do it? That's [02:22] what we're going to get into today. [02:23] Smarter growth for store owners and [02:25] agencies. Um, and also kind of the [02:27] business side of it for more for store [02:29] store owners, right? Is this do you have [02:30] an in-house team? Do you work with an [02:32] agency like Cody or myself? Do you you [02:34] know do you have some other setup like [02:36] let's talk about some ways that work? [02:37] Um, and what we've seen over our [02:39] experience too. And of course at the end [02:40] I want to touch on our newest product [02:42] Theme Switcher Pro and really kind of [02:43] dig into some iterative modernization [02:46] using our product. So, I'll do a quick [02:47] uh a really quick live demo at the end. [02:50] If you're not able to stay for the full [02:51] webinar, that's fine. We have the whole [02:53] thing is published on YouTube. You can [02:54] watch it right after the event. Um so, [02:56] don't feel like if you miss part, it's [02:58] gone. You can come back and catch it [02:59] later. So, um but let's jump in because [03:02] we got a lot to cover. So, WordPress is [03:03] is a powerhouse. It still is. A lot of [03:05] people think WordPress is is is [03:07] shrinking. And while it's plateaued a [03:09] lot the last couple years, it's really [03:10] holding steady right around 43% of the [03:14] entire internet. So people say, "Oh, [03:16] it's down 0.1%." This is of the entire [03:19] internet. This is a staggering number of [03:21] websites still running WordPress today. [03:23] Uh you know, almost 500 million uh known [03:26] sites globally uh powered by WordPress. [03:28] Uh forget all the things behind you know [03:30] pay walls and or you know loginins and [03:32] things that can't even be counted. So [03:34] now of that if we break down Woo [03:36] Commerce. So Woo Commerce is a plugin [03:38] for WordPress. It's a plugin that [03:40] incorporates a lot of advanced [03:41] functionality for e-commerce. it turns [03:43] your WordPress website uh adds a whole [03:45] e-commerce store to your website. Right? [03:47] So, it is a plugin within WordPress. You [03:48] have to have WordPress to run Woo [03:50] Commerce. Um now, if you just separate [03:52] that out and look at Woo Commerce in [03:54] terms of how many websites are running [03:56] Woo Commerce, 9% of all websites. So, [03:59] approximately about 20 it's a it's a [04:01] staggering number about one in five [04:03] websites WordPress sites has Woo [04:06] Commerce running on it. Um and if you [04:08] look at just e-commerce as a whole, Woo [04:10] Commerce is about 35% of that. So, Woo [04:12] Commerce is a large chunk. It's it's one [04:14] of the it's the top e-commerce uh [04:17] certainly a top open source e-commerce [04:18] platform and it powers a huge chunk of [04:20] the internet for good reason because [04:22] it's a great platform. It's open source. [04:23] It's endlessly extensible. You can do [04:25] anything you want with it, right? Which [04:27] can be a blessing and a curse, which I'm [04:29] sure we'll talk about a little bit more. [04:30] So, some big numbers, but I think it [04:32] helps sets the stage that Woo Commerce [04:34] is a dominant player in the e-commerce [04:37] space and a dominant player in the [04:38] open-source e-commerce space. So, a lot [04:41] of people are using it. A lot of [04:42] opportunities for not only if you're a [04:44] builder, implement agency to work with [04:46] it for your clients or if you are a [04:48] owner, a a store website. A good [04:51] opportunity for look at if you're [04:52] looking to roll out a store or change [04:53] your platform. So, we're not getting to [04:55] thank yous just yet, but I'm going to [04:57] stop sharing. I don't have a ton of [04:58] slides. I'd rather you just look at our [04:59] faces while we talk and maybe do some [05:01] screen sharing. Um, but let's dive into [05:03] it. So one of the first things we want [05:05] to kind of get into Cody is and this is [05:07] something I think if you've worked with [05:09] really if you built websites in any [05:10] capacity for a period of time this comes [05:13] up but specifically I want to talk about [05:15] you know your e-commerce WooCommerce [05:16] platform which is really modernization [05:18] right so it's very you know web and the [05:21] tech and and what people do and designs [05:23] and everything it just the only constant [05:26] is change right it's always evolving so [05:28] you could have an amazingly beautiful [05:30] website today in a year or two now it [05:32] could look very dated Right. So, uh, and [05:35] many times there's a kind of a knee-jerk [05:36] reaction to that, right? It's like, hey, [05:38] I got to modernize. We got to do [05:39] something different. We need to jump [05:40] over to this platform or that platform [05:41] or do, you know, and it's it's almost [05:43] like, let's take a breath here. So, you [05:46] know, Cody, I want to kind of pass this [05:47] over to you, but like when when one of [05:49] your clients or even maybe just somebody [05:51] walks in the door and says, look, our [05:52] our, you know, we're on Woo Commerce, [05:53] it's just feeling stale. Maybe we need [05:55] to go to Shopify. Everyone's, you know, [05:56] we're hearing that buzz. Is that is it [05:58] time to jump ship to modernize? What's [06:00] your reaction to that? How do you [06:01] respond to that? [06:03] Yeah, I hear that almost every single [06:06] day with people that are, you know, [06:07] maybe either clients that work with us [06:09] or people that just come through our [06:11] front door and they're asking for advice [06:13] on what to do with their platform. And [06:15] my answer being sort of a, you know, [06:19] agnostic e-commerce shop, at least on [06:22] the front door, is that there are no [06:25] perfect platforms. Um, it really comes [06:28] down to the size of your business and [06:30] your store. I think that that it is [06:33] really tricky when your site's getting [06:36] built up when you're first starting out [06:39] and you get to a certain threshold of [06:41] sales. [06:43] That is where it's difficult to sort of [06:45] get to a certain point and determine [06:48] what makes sense as far as a platform. [06:51] So, I think for your simpler stores, you [06:55] you you definitely can look at Shopify [06:58] as getting online. And I think it's if [07:00] you have a techsavvy background or if [07:03] you've tinkered a little bit, you could [07:05] still get yourself online fairly quick [07:07] with Woo Commerce because, you know, you [07:09] can even start that journey on [07:11] WordPress.com. [07:13] But I think where you really start to [07:14] determine where there's good par is once [07:17] you have sort of your, you know, your [07:20] site to a certain level, um, where you [07:23] have sales, where you actually have a [07:25] business, then it kind of makes sense to [07:27] weigh out what features you use inside [07:29] of the platform because it, and we'll [07:32] probably get to this later on, but [07:34] basically there there are ways to [07:35] determine what true parody is as far as [07:39] platforms. So my answer is just wherever [07:42] you are, it takes work to make that [07:44] platform be the best match for your [07:47] online business. [07:49] >> Yeah, I mean that's a great point. Like [07:50] it's it's it kind of rings a bell in my [07:52] head of something I'm talking about with [07:53] my my company of the the project [07:55] management tool we use and it's like [07:57] we've used different ones over the years [07:59] and none of them are perfect, right? And [08:01] it's basically like our answer now is [08:02] well this is the least worst out of all [08:04] the ones we've used which doesn't sound [08:07] great but it's like it's to your point [08:08] of they're as good they're only one is [08:11] only as good as you're going to make [08:12] them and work with them right but it is [08:13] there is never a perfect platform ever [08:16] right ever like and I mean you could [08:17] have endless budgets endless time I mean [08:19] look at Amazon right but they're never [08:21] done right they're always still building [08:22] improving and modernizing so it's never [08:24] done but it's also kind of thinking that [08:26] longer term so so like what is the [08:28] psychological kind of [08:30] you know, I guess the the the thought or [08:32] idea when someone's like, I need to [08:33] modernize. And and and many times it is [08:35] that knee-jerk, maybe it's not this [08:38] isn't working for me. Maybe I should try [08:39] something else. But when you start to [08:41] kind of dig in, you know, as I like to [08:42] say, peel back the onion and really get [08:45] to what is the challenge, as you and I [08:47] have talked before, that's when you [08:49] realize it isn't really the platform [08:51] specific. It's how they're maybe using [08:53] the platform or maybe things they're not [08:55] using that they could be using or [08:56] integrations they're not doing. Can you [08:58] speak a little bit about that where it's [09:00] like kind of, you know, kind of getting [09:01] to the point the the the root of what [09:03] their issues are versus just saying, [09:05] "Yeah, let's flip it all upside down and [09:07] and change, [09:08] >> right?" Yeah. I mean, so often I see [09:12] folks that are, you know, in that DIY [09:14] situation, right? So, you got people [09:16] that build their website on their own or [09:19] they hire a freelancer or get a small [09:21] team to help them get online. And that's [09:24] a good way to start. You know, you want [09:25] to get yourself set up and be able to [09:28] start making transactions and see what [09:31] kind of traffic you can bring to your [09:32] website. And then after that, once [09:35] you've hit a certain threshold of sales, [09:38] then then it really helps you kind of [09:41] determine what's working, what's not. [09:42] And what I see a lot of times is that [09:46] there is so many there are so many [09:48] plugins and there are so many themes and [09:50] things that you can add to your website [09:53] that you know becomes a smorgus board of [09:55] of just bloat of things that just cause [09:59] problems with your site speed. [10:02] Especially when people add things to to [10:04] cart and they want to check out. That's [10:06] typically where you see problems [10:08] happening because, you know, you can hop [10:09] onto any of these, you know, manage web [10:11] hosts, which are all, you know, there's [10:12] so many great ones out there and you can [10:15] get a fast site, but where the game [10:18] changes is when there's something in the [10:21] cart and you try to check out, that's [10:23] typically when it creates some type of a [10:25] unique browsing experience and you tend [10:28] to see slowdowns. So that's when you [10:31] kind of need to take a step back as a [10:33] store owner and understand what kind of [10:36] plugins am I running on my website. What [10:38] are the things that are causing me to [10:40] understand or rather understand why I'm [10:44] having problems with speed or why I'm [10:46] having problems with [10:48] making good headway wherever you might [10:51] be in a competitive space. Why is your [10:53] site slower than your competitor's site? [10:55] Mhm. [10:56] >> Um I think there's a lot of things to [10:57] look at and then just try to understand [11:01] what things can you do without what [11:02] things um can you try to take out of [11:07] your website to simplify your [11:08] experience. And it's a journey. You [11:10] know, there's no I I think a lot of [11:12] people that are might listen to this and [11:16] certainly a lot of people that I meet on [11:18] a day-to-day basis, they're always in [11:20] this predicament where it's, you know, [11:22] add whatever the popular plugins are, do [11:25] whatever Google or sorry, what AI is [11:28] telling you to do nowadays, um, to add [11:30] to your website. It's it's easy to fall [11:33] victim into that and not know what the [11:35] best and breed plugins are and what's [11:37] going to cause your website to run most [11:40] optimally. So, um and and like I said, [11:43] there's no easy way to find that out [11:44] until you're kind of rubber meets the [11:47] road, taking transactions, getting [11:50] traffic, and understanding how your [11:51] website holds up against that. [11:54] >> Yeah. I mean, you you touched on this [11:56] the term you use like the shiny object, [11:58] right? like the the that is the blessing [12:00] and the curse of honestly WordPress but [12:02] also Woo Commerce of it is so easy to [12:05] install a plugin and start turn it on [12:08] and start using it right and um like you [12:11] said many stores start small and many of [12:14] these stores have were built by the [12:16] store owner in some way right and so [12:17] they're trying things but then when you [12:19] start to see that success which we all [12:21] want for for those online stores that [12:24] starts to add up right now you have 30 [12:26] plugins running and you're starting to [12:28] do some significant sales that's going [12:29] to have an impact on yeah performance [12:31] load times and performance is such a [12:33] huge metric especially in e-commerce as [12:36] we all know you know little fractions of [12:37] a second can lose sales. So, um, [12:40] performance is always the number one [12:41] thing we're focused on here, right? So, [12:42] they're adding all these plugins for us, [12:45] you know, kind of going back to what is [12:46] the root cause or what is the the the [12:48] the reason why they're doing this is [12:50] trying to understand, well, what is why [12:52] did you add that plugin? What is it [12:53] you're trying to is it just to get like [12:55] make another sale because you think it's [12:56] going to add another call to action [12:57] button or something? Is it somehow [12:59] optimizing your checkout process? It's [13:01] it's from our perspective, it's um it's [13:03] having more intention on what you're [13:05] doing and what it's really focused on [13:07] the goal and working back from there. I [13:09] always like to to align what we do with [13:11] like Batman and his bat belt, right? [13:13] Like we got a lot of tools, a lot of [13:15] things we could use for this whatever [13:17] the situation is, but what's the best [13:18] one for them? What's the best one for [13:20] you? Right? So, you know, I'd love to [13:22] hear a little bit more about how you you [13:24] kind of uh handle those situations, too. [13:26] >> Yeah. So obviously one of the biggest [13:30] things to focus on is the front end of [13:32] your website. Like I alluded to earlier, [13:34] there's a lot of web hosts that can give [13:35] you a fast site that's cached. You get [13:38] there and things load in really quick, [13:40] but it starts to have some problems once [13:43] you add things to the cart. Now, think [13:45] about your staff. Think about your CSRs. [13:48] Think about the people that actually do [13:50] fulfillment for your site. There gets to [13:53] a point of growth for an online store [13:56] that you have so many plugins running on [13:58] your site and you have so many uh things [14:01] in the back end that cause the the [14:04] actual logged in dashboard experience to [14:07] be just a mess and super slow. And I [14:10] hear that so constantly with people that [14:13] you know get to this certain point of [14:14] growth and that that's sort of a [14:16] neglected thing, right? So I think going [14:19] back to the shiny object syndrome, there [14:22] are so many themes that will allow you [14:24] to get a website uh built quickly [14:27] without code. And we live in a time [14:30] where, you know, everybody can easily [14:33] get a website. You can go on a cloud, [14:35] you can basically tell it to design you [14:38] a website, and you could probably teach [14:40] yourself how to put together a theme. [14:42] But a lot of people will get on there [14:44] and they'll set up a theme that's got a [14:46] builder and it will, you know, set [14:49] things up across the website and you're [14:53] loading in so many things and you're [14:54] causing so many database queries and so [14:57] that has an impact not only on the front [15:00] end of the website but also on the back [15:01] end of the website. So you got to factor [15:02] in your opportunity cost here and [15:05] determine you know how do you fix that? [15:08] And that's the that's the challenging [15:10] thing. Kind of like you said, Brad, [15:12] think about where you want to be and [15:13] then kind of take a step back. There's [15:16] no shame in taking these methods to [15:18] build your website and doing a DIY [15:21] process. I think if you've gotten to [15:23] this point where you're getting sales [15:24] and you know how to get traffic to your [15:26] website and you're converting it, [15:28] whichever way you get there, it's a win, [15:31] you know? So, so don't fault yourself. [15:33] And it's not a it's not a race either. [15:36] Like if you find yourself a good [15:38] partner, you have to grow to a point [15:40] where you can actually afford to hire a [15:42] good partner uh that will help you with [15:45] your WooCommerce site. And then just [15:48] come up with a game plan of [15:49] understanding what it is that it's on [15:52] your website that's sort of causing you [15:53] to get slowdowns on the front end and [15:55] what's causing your staff to have all [15:57] types of trouble on the back end doing [16:00] fulfillment and using the dashboard [16:02] overall. So, lots of things to think [16:04] about. Sorry, I probably answer that in [16:06] the longest way possible. [16:07] >> No, I love it. And and you know, I think [16:10] too is people also lose sight of the [16:14] what a normal, you know, quote unquote [16:16] normal online customer. The experience [16:18] that they expect is a very specific [16:21] experience when you're buying something [16:22] online, right? Like we've had to talk [16:24] clients out of trying to make this [16:27] unique. Let's do it different than [16:29] everybody. I'm like that's not this [16:30] isn't the place you want to do things [16:32] like massively different. Like there is [16:33] a certain expectation when you buy [16:35] something online. There's a cart. [16:37] >> Get your things in the cart, make sure [16:38] you got the quantities, whatever you [16:39] need, and then there's a checkout [16:40] process, right? You expect certain [16:42] things to happen in a certain order. Um, [16:44] generally speaking, right? This not an [16:45] area to really experiment with UI and [16:47] weird UX. It's like you need things to [16:49] work a certain way. And you don't want [16:50] to confuse someone when they're getting [16:52] ready to give you a credit card number, [16:53] right? Or or pay for something. You need [16:55] to make it familiar. And I think that's [16:56] important, too, is don't just start [16:58] throwing things on there just because [16:59] you're trying to. It needs to still be a [17:00] familiar process. this. You don't want [17:01] this Frankenstein checkout. And they get [17:04] to the checkout and they don't realize [17:05] they're in a cart because it's so [17:06] convoluted with stuff that they've lost [17:08] the focus of where's the button to [17:09] actually finish paying for this thing, [17:10] right? So, it's also not losing what is [17:12] it? Not losing side of the the the [17:14] forest through the trees or three [17:16] whatever. You know, like you got to [17:17] still focus on the number one thing [17:18] you're trying to do is make sales. So, [17:20] whatever you do, get out of their way [17:21] and make that easy, [17:22] >> right? the checkout experience is a big [17:25] thing to focus on because like you said [17:27] adding all that friction and trying to [17:28] do it uniquely is just isn't the best [17:31] idea. And I'll say something [17:33] controversial. I don't think it's [17:34] controversial but [17:35] >> WooCommerce box [17:38] >> um hot take the uh the out of the box [17:42] Woo Commerce checkout experience is just [17:45] not great. It's it's something that is [17:47] very much sort of a dogged type of thing [17:51] that a lot of people look at and they [17:52] point to Shopify as like, hey, I like [17:55] that, you know, user experience that's [17:58] very familiar, you know, because you can [17:59] get on to any Instagram ad nowadays and [18:02] you can be on a checkout page on Shopify [18:05] like that. So, there has to be some type [18:08] of UI and and fewer steps in order to [18:11] get through that. And uh there's [18:13] certainly ways to do that with Woo [18:14] Commerce. [18:16] you know, and it's a good point because [18:17] Shopify is kind of the the the the one [18:19] everyone's comparing WooCommerce to. [18:21] It's really the second, you know, [18:22] platform up there from a SAS [18:24] perspective. It's not open source, very [18:26] different kind of model, but it's it is [18:27] a good online store for many people, [18:29] right? So, I think it kind of begs the [18:31] the larger question of like where is the [18:34] sweet spot for Woo Commerce? Like what [18:36] is this? Is it just selling products? [18:38] Are there opportunities where digital [18:40] goods or LMS's or something really out [18:42] really outperform on Woo Commerce versus [18:45] trying to set up other, you know, [18:46] services that work with Shopify? Like, [18:48] and and this is really, you know, I'm [18:50] really asking you, Cody, from your [18:52] opinion, experience, like where do you [18:54] find that sweet spot is? And you're [18:55] like, this is exactly what Woo Commerce [18:57] just nails and people love it all day [18:59] long when they're kind of in this area. [19:00] Is that a question that's possible to [19:02] answer? And if it is, I'd love to hear [19:03] your thoughts. [19:04] >> Sure. So, I'll answer it with just [19:06] saying first and foremost, if you're [19:09] starting a business to sell clothes or [19:12] t-shirts that have, you know, six sizes [19:15] and three colors, it probably makes [19:17] sense to launch it on Shopify. And I'll [19:21] say that because the complex side of Woo [19:25] Commerce really works well for, you [19:29] know, when you get into products with a [19:30] ton of different variations, you have a [19:32] bunch of add-ons and you have sort of [19:34] complex [19:36] uh buying processes or buying journeys. [19:39] Um, one thing that we see at Modiffect [19:42] is, uh, some of a lot of our clients are [19:45] in using subscriptions on their [19:47] websites. And so, it's been a wonderful [19:52] tool for their business to be able to [19:53] use Woo subscriptions and be able to [19:56] have their custom setups for all all [19:59] their variations and be able to set up [20:01] their website that's all geared towards [20:02] that subscription flow. So, I'd say [20:05] subscriptionbased sites both for [20:07] products and digital goods are a great [20:10] fit for Woo Commerce. I think there's uh [20:12] one of our clients is uh in the HVAC [20:15] space. So, they sell large uh HVAC [20:19] systems and have a lot of different uh [20:21] things that need to be added on there [20:22] and it's it's a pretty complex uh buying [20:26] journey. So [20:28] >> you you know obviously it's not for the [20:29] faint of heart but obviously WooCommerce [20:32] is set up really well to be able to [20:33] handle that end to end and not only just [20:36] the front-end experience but also from a [20:39] customer service experience where [20:42] somebody's on the other side inside of [20:44] the website taking phone calls or [20:46] getting emails and putting orders into [20:48] the system and matching that up uh both [20:51] sides. So, I I think there there's [20:54] really great parody there. And, you [20:56] know, I'll say another thing. Um, I've [20:59] also had some conversations with people [21:01] that run their sites on Shopify. And [21:03] this is no I'm not trying to throw shade [21:06] at Shopify. Obviously, I work on Shopify [21:09] sites. We'll we'll help clients with [21:10] those, too. But I've also had [21:13] conversations with stores that run on [21:16] Shopify and for these larger fulfillment [21:20] instances with all types of different [21:22] things that they have to do through [21:23] their website, there's an acknowledgment [21:26] of the fact that they're only getting [21:28] really 70 to 80% [21:31] of what they want out of Shopify. And [21:34] the great thing about Woo Commerce is is [21:36] that you sort of have your own [21:38] development destiny that you can give to [21:41] your team and write out some type of a [21:46] uh you know like configuration or [21:48] whatever capabilities you need on your [21:51] website. And if you have a good partner, [21:52] they can build that out for you. And so [21:55] that's that's the beauty of a lot of [21:57] these plugins that are on Woo Commerce [22:00] that run or we would call them [22:01] extensions. You can further customize a [22:05] lot of those if you have a good team [22:06] that knows how to do that and get [22:08] exactly what you want on your platform [22:10] that best matches the the the way that [22:13] you do fulfillment or whatever way you [22:15] run your business from on the on the [22:17] administrative side. And that's that's a [22:20] great thing and that's sort of where [22:22] your limitation would be on Shopify. So, [22:25] I'd say that, you know, that is [22:27] certainly that [22:29] revenue range that sort of hits towards [22:32] maybe your 10 million and above when [22:34] you're around there in sales [22:36] >> because the cost of ownership on Shopify [22:39] is starting to get very large, you know, [22:41] with how many how many apps you got to [22:43] buy and how many just just if you're on [22:47] Shopify Plus, I think I want to say it's [22:49] close to three grand per month. [22:51] Somebody's going to fact check me on [22:52] that. [22:52] >> It scales. It scales quickly with [22:54] success which you know with success [22:56] there's more of an investment you'd [22:57] expect but it does start to scale up in [23:00] price very quickly once [23:01] >> right you can find millions and you know [23:03] so yeah [23:04] >> yeah you can find a good partner to get [23:06] your hosting you know dialed in and [23:09] configured and spend significantly less [23:12] just at a baseline to run your store. So [23:14] anyway um more to that of course. [23:18] >> Yeah I mean I love everything you said. [23:20] I think um you know I I I like Shopify [23:23] too like this isn't just a dog on [23:25] Shopify but it's it's right there with [23:27] Woo Commerce. So I think it's always the [23:28] one everyone's really comparing the two [23:29] right at the top right now for [23:30] e-commerce for most you know a lot of [23:32] the stores out there. So um and it is [23:34] the place I will recommend if someone's [23:36] like hey I got this product idea [23:38] >> and you know they always just like you [23:40] I'm sure friends family you know come to [23:42] us can you fix my printer? Can you can [23:44] you launch an online store? Of course [23:45] I'm the tech guy. I do it all right. So, [23:47] but I'm like, I don't want to really set [23:49] that up and manage it. So, Shopify is a [23:51] great way to test your idea, right? Hey, [23:53] you get a couple sales, start to [23:54] validate your idea, you might have [23:56] something and then when things start to [23:57] work, you want to then you want to make [23:59] the decision, well, where do I really [24:00] want to land? Because once it scales to [24:02] a certain point or even starts really [24:03] becoming successful, you know, that idea [24:06] of of switching platforms is not a small [24:09] lift. Um, even which either way you're [24:11] going, right? like there is a online [24:13] store, there is orders, there's a [24:15] customer history, there's accounts, [24:16] there's products, you know, inventory, [24:18] all this stuff that you'd have to go [24:19] from one system to another. So, it's a [24:21] it's a big lift going from one or the [24:23] other. So, you also want to be thinking [24:24] longer term of where do I want to be? [24:26] What are the costs going to look like [24:27] when I hit certain thresholds if I am on [24:29] Shopify and are those sustainable for [24:31] me? Or is now the time to switch over to [24:33] something Woo Commerce, like you said, [24:35] really optimize the store to exactly how [24:37] you want it. find a really elegant, you [24:39] know, fairly inexpensive host, which [24:40] there are many out there that specialize [24:42] on, uh, WordPress and Woo Commerce. Um, [24:44] and away you go and your costs are going [24:46] to be significantly less, especially as [24:48] you scale up into to much more success [24:50] and a lot more sales, right? But, um, so [24:53] totally agree with that. I did want to, [24:55] uh, kind of po I want to get some a [24:57] little more specific on some of your [24:58] advice on some of these things. So, we [25:00] talked um, you know, we think about like [25:02] leakiest bucket, right? when you go into [25:03] a WooCommerce store and I'd be curious [25:05] like is there something like one thing [25:07] that really drains revenue without [25:10] owners even knowing it? Like is there [25:12] something that you know maybe not every [25:13] site you look at but is there something [25:14] that kind of stands out that's something [25:16] you see that's very common that either [25:18] hurts revenue you know hurts sales or [25:20] whatever and it seems to be like a [25:21] common pattern a lot of people try and [25:23] it just doesn't work the way they think [25:24] it will. Anything come to mind that [25:25] stands out that people need to be aware [25:27] of? [25:28] >> What's Cody's big tip here? [25:30] >> Yeah, there's there's a few here. Um, so [25:32] obvious whatever you got. [25:34] >> Yeah, website host I think is is one [25:37] thing. So there there's a specific I [25:39] mean gosh one trying to isolate that. So [25:42] like obviously [25:43] >> a couple couple things. Host for sure. I [25:44] mean that's [25:45] >> right. A macro thing to bring up would [25:48] just be sight speed. So I think the the [25:51] the thing that online store owners are [25:53] always chasing is better sight speed. [25:55] Mhm. [25:56] >> And it's kind of a known thing that Woo [25:58] Commerce can slow your you can slow your [26:01] website down pretty quick if you don't [26:03] have the right partner and you slap in [26:05] all these plugins and you have you know [26:07] a site builder that's that's loading a [26:10] million inquiries with each page load, [26:12] right? So um you know just just having [26:16] too many plugins on your website. [26:18] Obviously less plugins you can you can [26:20] utilize the better. um kind of going [26:22] back to what you were saying is like you [26:23] know it's no frills like having don't [26:26] try to reinvent the wheel having [26:27] simplified things another thing is uh [26:29] your checkout experience so obviously [26:32] going back to what we talked about [26:34] >> I think that the out of the box [26:37] >> WooCommerce checkout flow is sometimes a [26:40] little cumbersome for a lot of online [26:42] buyers so we sort of have a [26:45] recommendation for a plugin here we use [26:48] uh um Kestrel's plugin and check out WC [26:53] as a uh a good tool that that basically [26:56] gives you a very similar Shopify UI that [27:00] that you can configure onto your website [27:03] and you can do a lot of customization [27:04] there and I believe in their new version [27:06] they have AB testing as well. So that's [27:09] a really good tool. So, I'd say sight [27:11] speed, checkout, and then I'd say as [27:15] like a more of a [27:18] it's not really like something super [27:20] specific, but more of another macro [27:22] thing is that relationship between your [27:25] code and your host. So, for instance, I [27:29] think a lot of people out there are just [27:30] having conversations saying, "Oh, we [27:32] need to go and get a faster server or, [27:36] oh, we need to get over here and get on [27:38] to AWS or get on to Google Cloud or, you [27:41] know, spend a lot more for their [27:43] hosting." and and all of our hosting [27:44] partners are probably uh kind of um [27:47] upset with us right now, but there is [27:50] sort of a nuance and a and a [27:52] understanding of the process and the [27:54] time that it takes in order to get that [27:56] sort of right harmony between your [27:59] website and your host. So, one thing [28:01] that that Woo Commerce recently launched [28:03] not too long ago is uh HPOS, which is uh [28:07] the high performance order system. And [28:10] we've seen some really good success in a [28:13] lot of the sites we've been a enabling [28:15] that on to get really good wins across [28:18] the board, especially with stores that [28:20] are doing say a subscription store that [28:23] does a bunch of orders every single day [28:26] and does that automated. Uh we got some [28:28] really massive wins implementing that on [28:30] some mature stores and that's part of [28:33] that process with that maturity we have [28:36] with the software alongside the server. [28:38] So, I I'm kind of pointing out these [28:41] things and it's maybe a little bit of a [28:43] frustrating answer because aside from [28:46] checkout WC, there there just really [28:48] isn't an easy win. Uh yeah, especially [28:51] when you have these sort of um you know, [28:54] things that happen on your site. I'd say [28:57] for people that are spending money to [28:59] get traffic uh on ads or SEO or [29:02] whatever, there's definitely, you know, [29:05] just making sure that your website is [29:08] fully tuned to be fast and be able to be [29:11] conversion ready and and understanding [29:13] you have, you know, possibly some maybe [29:15] versions set up. Um, I'd say those are [29:19] some of the things that are that we see [29:21] often. Some of the things that we see [29:23] that kind of affects our clients ability [29:25] to be able to, you know, get the sales [29:28] that they're looking for. [29:30] >> Yeah, great advice. Check out wc.com [29:33] if you want to take a look at that. I [29:35] firmly agree with the host u [29:37] recommendation because e-commerce has a [29:40] special set of requirements on a host [29:43] because it's a if you have a a marketing [29:45] site, a content site, caching is such an [29:48] important part of it, right? And that's [29:49] what helps make it blazing fast and you [29:51] don't have to go hit the database every [29:52] time the page loads. Well, with [29:54] e-commerce, there's some of that, right? [29:56] But some of it can't be cached, right? [29:58] Like you're not caching the checkout [29:59] process because you're live interacting [30:01] with the database, right? So, it has to. [30:03] And so that's where those special [30:04] considerations come in to make sure [30:06] you're working with a host that truly [30:07] understands that, right? So if you're [30:09] not working with one, I would say make [30:10] sure it's a WordPress managed host, [30:12] right? Make sure it's somebody that [30:14] specializes specifically in WordPress. [30:17] Not just saying you can host WordPress [30:18] here, but they specialize it, right? And [30:20] then talk to them about Woo Commerce. [30:21] Say, what do you do special for Woo [30:23] Commerce? Knowing there's certain [30:24] considerations. If you start to have [30:25] success and orders are flowing in, like [30:28] you said, the last thing you want is [30:29] your host of, you know, and fall [30:31] over when people are trying to pay you [30:32] money. That is absolutely, you know, a [30:35] e-commerce website owner's nightmare, [30:37] right? Is like people want to pay and [30:38] the site breaks. So, um, you know, [30:40] definitely that is almost one of the [30:41] most important things. Make sure you're [30:43] on the right host because almost nothing [30:44] else will matter if you're not, right? [30:46] So, a lot of good recommendations out [30:48] there, a lot of articles, but definitely [30:49] manage WP, manage WordPress host, and [30:52] then make sure they have famili [30:54] familiarity with Woo Commerce and they [30:56] can actually speak intelligently about [30:58] it because if they're just pulling out [30:59] buzzwords and stuff, that should be a [31:00] big red flag. [31:02] >> Don't don't uh launch your website and [31:04] then run a Super Bowl commercial and [31:06] with a [31:08] >> level Cloudflare account. They spent [31:10] like 70 million on AI.com and like7 [31:13] million on the commercial and then it [31:15] was like on a basic Cloudflare free plan [31:18] or something. [31:19] >> Yeah, it was like a $500 Cloudflare plan [31:21] or something. [31:22] >> I would have I would have told them that [31:23] for a lot cheaper than what they spent [31:24] on, you know, all in. So, um but they [31:26] got to talk with us, you know. [31:28] >> I validated that. I I was on the website [31:30] when I saw the the commercial ran and I [31:32] was like shocked the website just [31:34] wouldn't load. It was like totally [31:36] crashed. I'm like, you got to see me, [31:38] man. I mean, you're spend all that money [31:40] for a rush of traffic and then it can't [31:41] handle. I mean, that is a site owner's [31:42] nightmare, right? You have a rush of [31:44] traffic, you can't handle it. Whether [31:45] you know it's coming, and if you know [31:46] it's coming, that's really inexcusable. [31:48] But when you don't know what's coming is [31:49] even more, like something goes viral, [31:51] some celebrity wears something you're [31:52] selling, and boom, you got a thousand [31:54] orders in overnight when you're [31:56] sleeping. That's when you need to make [31:57] sure your website's solid and the host [31:59] is solid because you don't want to miss [32:01] that opportunity because it may never [32:02] come again. Um, so I do want to go back [32:04] to a point uh we you kind of touched on [32:06] but I want to dig in a little bit more [32:08] and especially as as you know stores [32:10] start to have some success right they [32:12] start to grow you know many of the [32:14] stores start on like you said they they [32:15] build they put them together themselves [32:17] they launch you know validate the idea [32:19] whatever they start to have some success [32:21] where is the threshold of where a store [32:23] should start looking for outside help [32:25] either freelancers agencies like ours [32:28] you know where is that and I know it's [32:29] not just a numbers thing of oh well once [32:30] you make 10 grand a month but like of Of [32:32] course, part of it is you got to have [32:33] the budget for stuff like that. But like [32:35] is there where is that when when should [32:36] shop owners start thinking, okay, I'm [32:38] getting to the point where this is one [32:40] beyond my skill set, but two, this is [32:42] getting it's going really well, but I [32:43] need somebody that knows how to kind of [32:45] continue to grow and make sure it's not [32:46] going to fall over. Like how do you help [32:48] people understand that as you're kind of [32:50] guiding them on this on this uh [32:51] e-commerce journey? [32:53] >> Yeah. So, I think again anybody who's [32:56] starting a business and starting an [32:57] online store, DIY is great. you know, [33:01] start it out, get it as far as you can. [33:03] It's good to at least get somebody who's [33:06] a expert in the platform you're running [33:08] on just to get their ear. Just at least, [33:11] my advice to you if you're starting a [33:13] store, book a consultation with a [33:16] WooCommerce developer to be able to [33:19] understand, just at least prepare [33:20] yourself for what you're getting into [33:22] and kind of understand the road map [33:24] you're going down. Because what will [33:27] happen is when you get to that revenue [33:29] point where you can afford to hire a [33:32] firm or a developer, whatever, you're [33:35] going to have to undo a lot of the [33:38] things that you've done to get you get [33:39] you to the point where you're at. So, I [33:42] think it's good just to get I think, you [33:44] know, at Modifact, we can I'm always [33:47] available for a free consult. I'll I'll [33:48] I'll talk to anybody who comes through [33:50] our front door just to give them [33:52] >> Cody's cell phone at the end here for [33:53] everyone just to shoot the text. [33:55] >> Yeah. Well, um uh [33:57] >> that's a I mean it's great advice [33:58] because like we're the same, right? You [34:00] walk in the door, we're going to have a [34:01] conversation, right? And then our big [34:03] philosophy and I know yours is the same [34:05] because we talk about this like if we're [34:07] not a good fit, [34:08] >> I would like to send you in a direction [34:10] that I think could be a good fit. Right? [34:11] So, doesn't mean I'm going to tell you [34:13] go hire this company or go hire that [34:14] person, but I'm usually going to we [34:15] have, you know, references and agencies [34:17] and Cody's one of them with modifact [34:19] where if it's just a project that's [34:20] either not a good fit or we just can't [34:22] hit their timeline or for whatever [34:23] reason, but looks like a good project. [34:25] We send it to people that we trust and [34:26] respect. I know if if Cody, you know, [34:28] lands that project, he's going to take [34:30] care of them. He's going to do a good [34:31] job. And that's how I put my karma out [34:32] in the world, right? I try to share the [34:34] leads that don't work for us with other [34:35] people. And I know other people share [34:36] leads with us. So, it's also making sure [34:38] again we have the conversation. What do [34:40] you look for? And if you're not a right [34:41] fit for us, no harm, no foul. Let me [34:43] send you on to where I think you might [34:44] be a right fit and people that we do [34:46] know don't trust. And so again, in the [34:48] WordPress community, in the WordPress [34:50] world, that's how a lot of us work, [34:52] right? Which is not like outside [34:53] WordPress. It's it's open source. We're [34:55] friendly. We're friends, even though [34:57] we're competitors. Cody and I are [34:58] competitors. [34:59] >> People are like, "Why is he why are you [35:00] coming on the podcast with a [35:01] competitor?" Because we're friends and [35:02] we share, you know, we send people back [35:04] and forth based on who's a better fit [35:05] for who. So, um you know, we're all in [35:08] this together and trying to help each [35:09] other. But I think the idea of just [35:10] getting some expert advice, cuz I'll [35:12] give people advice. I'm sure you do, [35:13] too. Things to look for, things to stay [35:14] away from. Oh, so and so said that, [35:16] >> that's a huge red flag. Do not go that [35:19] direction, right? Like you can hear some [35:20] of that. [35:21] >> Yes, it's free advice, but like we like [35:23] to help people as much as we can. So, [35:25] yeah, talk to someone. And there are a [35:26] lot of, you know, whether it's an [35:27] agency, whether it's a freelancer, [35:28] there's a lot of like really, really [35:30] solid Woo Commerce developers out there [35:32] because honestly, Woo Commerce is not [35:33] that far off from WordPress. It's built [35:35] and it's supported in a very similar [35:37] way. So, you know, it's just a more [35:39] complex plugin within uh for WordPress. [35:43] >> Absolutely. [35:44] >> Yeah. So, um let's see. We're going. If [35:47] anyone's got questions in the chat um [35:49] during this is live stream, of course, [35:50] if you're watching it later, uh good [35:53] luck. Put them in the comment. But if [35:54] you have questions, throw them in the [35:55] chat. We'll get to them here in just a [35:56] minute. U one thing I want to show a [35:58] little bit about shared hosting for the [36:00] win, Adam. I mean, it's kind of what [36:02] they did with AI.com, right? So, uh [36:04] how'd that work out? I think it was only [36:06] $20 a month. [36:07] >> I don't know if we're going to come back [36:09] to that question about the salary [36:11] framing. Um I think [36:13] >> Yeah, why don't we why don't we put in [36:14] on that and then I'll go on to the next [36:15] one. [36:16] >> Sure. So, yeah, I just wanted to share [36:18] on that because I think that's perfect [36:19] framing, Brad, as far as somebody who's [36:22] looking at hiring a developer inhouse. [36:25] So, I I see that all the time. A lot of [36:28] companies will, you know, just think, [36:30] hey, I want somebody I could see over [36:33] here in the bullpen. Gosh, I don't know. [36:35] I mean, that's probably rare a rare case [36:38] these days, but just having somebody [36:40] they can have a direct line to to have [36:43] one throat to choke so that they can [36:45] make sure all of their stuff is done on [36:47] their website. Well, you know, you kind [36:49] of think about that salary requirement. [36:51] You know, maybe somebody who needs, you [36:54] know, what is it 70 85k, can we make a [36:56] living on that amount anymore? I don't [36:59] know. It keeps keeps going up. But [37:01] anyhow, you think about a company [37:03] spending anywhere sub $100,000 a year. [37:07] You could find a generalist web [37:09] developer to bring onto your team that [37:12] may sort of know WordPress, that might [37:13] sort of know, you know, web development [37:15] and they're learning and they're jack of [37:17] all trades. Or you can hire a firm that [37:20] will be a really great fit that has a [37:23] team of experts and you can use that [37:25] investment to be able to, you know, use [37:29] different skill sets. Whether that's a, [37:31] you know, part of that's front end, part [37:32] of that's backend, part of that's [37:34] database optimization, part of that's [37:36] just having an overall hosting [37:39] environment knowhow. Uh, you can really [37:42] get a good uh investment level hiring an [37:45] agency. Of course, I'm an agency owner, [37:46] so I'm going to say that. But we we tend [37:49] to see that so often. And I also tend to [37:51] see a lot of companies that come to us [37:54] for help that have that generalist web [37:56] developer that have a laundry list of [38:00] issues and they things that they're [38:01] just, you know, that are way outside of [38:03] their depth. So something [38:06] >> I mean I I love that because I mean [38:08] that's that's a point that of course I'm [38:09] sure you use in sales calls just like I [38:11] do, but it's a very fair point, right? [38:13] like a one individual's salary just call [38:15] it 100 grand whatever that is um is a [38:18] great salary for that person and they [38:20] probably be maybe they are an amazing [38:22] fit and they do know stuff but it is [38:23] also one person right so there's also [38:25] one single point of failure sick days [38:27] PTO you know things like that right [38:29] versus [38:30] >> again spending a similar amount not [38:32] having that commitment of a employee [38:35] >> um and having you know Cody's team my [38:38] team a team of experts data specialists [38:40] UI UX SEO whatever uh to come come in [38:43] and help you out with a lot of [38:44] redundancy. So, it's I think it's a [38:46] great point. I'm glad you made it [38:46] because I think it's just again store [38:48] owners sit down and see where you're at [38:50] and see what makes sense. Maybe that [38:51] full hire does make sense based on what [38:53] you're doing. But, it's always good to [38:54] kind of think about other options and [38:56] and again, maybe it's just try it. Try [38:58] it. You know, hire Cody hire mode effect [39:00] for a month or two. Are you seeing [39:02] results? Is it there? If not, all right, [39:05] go somewhere else and you're not stuck [39:06] with a hire that's not producing [39:07] results, right? But I have no doubt Cody [39:09] and his team will produce results. um [39:11] because when either one of us get our [39:12] foot in the door, we're only going to do [39:14] amazing things um and help our clients. [39:16] So, great great advice. I want to um I [39:19] want to round it out here a little bit [39:20] with uh you know, we talked about [39:22] modernization, we talked about, you [39:25] know, staying away from shiny things, [39:26] smart growth. Um I want to show off a [39:29] little bit about what we've been doing [39:30] with theme switch around Woo Commerce [39:32] and specifically around how this can [39:33] actually help versus, hey, I'm on an old [39:35] store, I'm on an old site. We want to [39:36] modernize. We we we love Woo Commerce, [39:39] but we want to redesign. and we want to [39:40] rebuild. We want to redo the whole [39:42] thing, right? Well, that's that big, oh [39:44] gosh, this is going to be a big big [39:45] project, big commitment, big financial [39:47] commitment, everyone a lot of time. It's [39:49] just, you know, it's risky to the [39:50] business. What happens if something goes [39:51] wrong? There is still a world where that [39:53] makes sense, don't get me wrong. And [39:54] there's a world where that should make [39:55] sense for a lot of companies, but it's [39:57] not the only way we can accomplish this [40:00] now. So, um, I'm going to show this off [40:02] and I'm going to blow Cody's mind. No, [40:04] he's seen this. Um, [40:05] >> yeah, I'm excited, man, because we, uh, [40:07] we need something like this on the [40:08] Effect site. Mhm. Well, we'll get it on [40:12] there. All right. So, live local demo, [40:15] baby. These are always fun. Please work. [40:17] No, it'll work. Um, so really simple [40:19] basic example. This is a default [40:21] WordPress install. Uh, 6.9, maybe 0.1. I [40:25] don't know if I installed the point [40:26] release yet, but either way, it's 6.9. [40:28] It's running 2025, which is currently [40:31] the, you know, the default theme. You [40:33] can see we click around here, everything [40:34] is 2025. I even have Woo Commerce [40:37] running. This is again a default Woo [40:38] Commerce. Little side tip, too. If you [40:40] install Woo Commerce, the plugin, it [40:42] comes with a sample data file in the [40:44] plugin [40:45] >> that you can import a bunch of fake data [40:47] like I did here. So, if you want to test [40:49] it out, it's right in the plugin. Just [40:50] grab that file and import it uh in [40:52] WordPress and away you go. So, really [40:53] easy way to kind of test some things. [40:55] But, this is a store, fully functional [40:57] store. I don't have, you know, checkout [40:58] uh payment integration here. This is [41:00] just local, but everything else works. [41:02] Add to cart, whatever. So, this is where [41:04] the power of what we built comes in. And [41:06] so we build a plugin called theme [41:08] switcher and allows you to switch the [41:09] theme on a pa one page at a time, one [41:12] section at a time, you know, based on [41:15] category, based on custom post type, [41:17] based on whatever you want. So, but the [41:18] real power here for Woo Commerce is we [41:20] have an integration. So, as we know, Woo [41:22] Commerce, there's a products custom post [41:24] type. There's a number of pages Woo [41:26] Commerce makes. You could manually [41:28] switch all of those with theme switcher, [41:29] but we know what Woo Powers Commerce. [41:31] So, we've actually baked that in um to [41:33] theme switcher. So, it will recognize [41:35] any theme. You can't see me clicking the [41:37] drop down here, but if I click it, any [41:38] theme in my theme directory is in this [41:40] dropdown. I'm going to go with [41:41] storefront, which is the automatics [41:42] official Woo Commerce um theme, and I'll [41:45] just save that. And then when I switch [41:46] it back to my live website, guess what? [41:49] It's still 2025 because I didn't change [41:51] the live website. I changed the shop. [41:54] But when I go to the store, boom, now [41:57] we're running storefront. So everything [41:58] in Woo Commerce is running storefront. [42:01] Product details, add to cart, the cart, [42:04] everything. my account, it's all running [42:09] um storefront. But if I go anywhere else [42:11] on my website that is not Woo Commerce [42:13] about page, I'm right back to 2025. [42:16] Homepage, I'm right back to 2025. So, uh [42:19] pretty extreme example of just switching [42:21] the whole thing over. But you could also [42:23] just switch your shop main page. You [42:25] could switch just your product detail [42:26] page. You could build out using a new [42:29] theme, a new product detail page and [42:31] swap it. Now, imagine like the homepage. [42:34] You could just make homepage two that [42:35] runs on a block theme. Build out the [42:38] whole homepage. And you know what you [42:39] have to do to launch that? Just go to [42:41] your reading settings and change [42:42] homepage to homepage two and hit save. [42:44] And you've just relaunched your homepage [42:46] on a block theme. So this is a real game [42:48] changer in terms of modernization, [42:50] iterization, but doing it iteratively, [42:52] right? Chipping away at it again. And [42:54] this is a tool for for us. This is a [42:56] tool for Cody. This is a tool for [42:58] agencies, impleers, and store owners. So [43:00] even if you're not technical, you could [43:02] install this and start, you know, using [43:03] storefront or using a blockbased theme [43:05] on maybe a theme that is using old [43:07] classic editor um and really change the [43:10] game in a matter of minutes um versus [43:12] months of rebuilding your whole theme. [43:14] So [43:14] >> I have a real question for you for so we [43:18] talked about in the instance of [43:19] WooCommerce sites where they use these [43:21] builder themes or [43:22] >> you know these no code themes. So, what [43:25] about somebody who has a website that [43:27] comes on to, you know, that that wants [43:30] to sort of do this low buildout? Like if [43:32] we're working with a client, we're like, [43:33] "Hey, you really need to get on to using [43:37] Gutenberg because it's going to help [43:38] your website speed." So, will this be [43:41] compatible with people who use like say [43:43] BeaverBuilder or uh [43:45] >> It is compatible with BeaverBuilder. So, [43:47] it's compatible with BeaverBuilder, [43:49] Divvy. Um there's a couple other page [43:51] builders. We have a compatibility [43:53] section on themeswitcher.com. Um, and [43:55] you can you can you can check it there [43:57] to see if it's listed. If it's not [43:58] listed and it's popular, it's probably [43:59] in the works, but I know for sure [44:00] BeaverBuilder and Divvy are both fully [44:02] supported and tested. Um, because again, [44:04] your point, if their whole shop is [44:06] running BeaverBuilder, you could [44:07] selectively start replacing out those [44:09] templates with storefront or a [44:10] blockbased theme or anything outside of [44:12] BeaverBuilder. So, um, we know that's a [44:14] big market for this because exactly what [44:15] you said, performance, right? Or you [44:18] could go the other way. you could start [44:19] using BeaverBuilder on certain pages if [44:21] you really wanted to. So, it's super [44:22] flexible. Um, really, if you if the [44:24] theme follows WordPress standards, it [44:26] works, right? Page builders, you had to [44:28] put a little little bit of extra testing [44:30] in there and extra considerations [44:31] because they're doing a lot more. But [44:33] generally speaking, if a theme is a [44:34] block theme, a new theme, whatever, and [44:36] it follows the WordPress standards, it [44:38] works with theme switcher. Um, so of [44:40] course, always test. Um, but we've had a [44:42] lot of success. We're using this to we [44:44] are landing more projects with this [44:45] process. we are bringing it's giving us [44:47] another option to bring to the table [44:49] right when someone says hey we want to [44:50] redo our Woo Commerce okay we have a [44:52] couple options here we could go [44:53] traditional route and and for some [44:55] projects that's perfect and that's [44:56] exactly what they want or we could go [44:59] the the new the new route with the [45:01] switcher pro and we could have results [45:03] in a matter of a week two weeks you [45:05] could start seeing results you know um [45:07] so pretty cool I want to throw it out [45:09] because I do think with the the the [45:10] larger topic of modernization don't just [45:12] flip it all upside down there's a lot of [45:14] options out there now Right. So, um [45:17] whether it's theme switcher pro, whether [45:18] you know, just whether it's just modifi, [45:20] you know, modified or working with an a [45:22] pro like Cody that knows, hey, you [45:23] shouldn't have 15 plugins running on [45:25] your checkout page, you know, you [45:27] shouldn't have all these things that are [45:28] flashing when I'm trying to click the [45:29] pay button. The only thing that should [45:31] be in my mind is clicking that pay [45:32] button, right? So, um bring in the [45:34] experts have just let him audit your [45:36] site. He's going to come back with [45:37] recommendations that are going to make [45:38] you money. And that's what I love about [45:39] e-commerce because it's so like websites [45:42] are all based on traffic and sometimes [45:44] ads and things like that, but e-commerce [45:45] it's very black and white if it's [45:47] working. Are you making sales or not? [45:49] Right? So for me it's just I'm a data [45:50] guy. It's zeros and ones. It's either [45:52] working or it's not. [45:53] >> Um so it's always you can analyze it and [45:55] with a few tweaks [45:56] >> you can start making more money and [45:58] easily justify hiring an agency like [46:00] ours. So um yeah, any final thoughts? I [46:03] have one final segment I want to do, but [46:05] Cody, I'll leave it to you for final [46:06] thoughts before we get into that. [46:09] >> Yeah, I mean, just, you know, I think [46:11] it's again just, you know, getting back [46:13] to just knowing your your basics here [46:16] and figuring out, you know, I think [46:18] there's a lot of SMBs running on Woo [46:20] Commerce. So, you just you really want [46:22] to educate yourself. And I and I I can't [46:24] stress enough having an agency that [46:27] understands Woo Commerce in your back [46:29] pocket, even just to get some education. [46:32] I think it's a good investment even if [46:33] there's, you know, just a free [46:35] consultation or just making a small [46:38] investment with them, you know. Um, this [46:40] is where we're going to flash the the [46:42] donation screen up on on the YouTube. [46:44] So, you know, make a small donation. [46:47] >> Smash that subscribe. [46:49] >> No, that's I just say that's key. [46:51] >> Yeah, it's good advice for sure. Um, [46:53] talk to people and honestly, I think a [46:55] lot of us like helping because it is the [46:56] open source mentality. It's helping. [46:58] It's we all help each other. We all [47:00] grow, right? And so really just in the [47:02] open source world that's a lot that's [47:03] our mindset because that's how we've [47:04] been building for years and in our case [47:06] decades, right? So um so yeah, great [47:09] great advice. I want to end on a final [47:11] little fun segment here. Cody has no [47:13] idea what I'm about to do. Um which is [47:16] even more fun. So we're going to call [47:18] this segment the cart recovery rapid [47:20] fire segment. So this is real simple. [47:22] I'm going to throw a quick question over [47:24] to Cody. Cody, you got five seconds to [47:26] give me your answer and then we're going [47:28] right to the next one. I'm just going to [47:29] rapidfire you some big old e-commerce [47:31] questions and I want to see what you [47:32] come up with. [47:33] >> This could be [47:33] >> maybe they're not big old questions, but [47:35] I it'll be fun. Okay. [47:37] >> How do you feel about this? I don't have [47:38] sound effects. That's the only thing I'm [47:39] a little sad about. I need like ticking [47:41] and a ding or a buzzer, but [47:42] >> yeah, you need a soundboard. [47:44] >> Maybe for the next one. We'll bring back [47:46] the dragcast or something. But all [47:48] right. All right. Here we go. The cart [47:50] recovery rapid fire segment starts now. [47:53] All right. Shopify verse Woo Commerce. [47:55] Who wins for a brand doing 10 million [47:57] plus? [47:59] I'd say Woo Commerce. [48:00] >> Woo Commerce. All right. Free shipping [48:02] banner. Mandatory or lame? [48:06] >> Pretty lame. [48:07] >> Pretty lame. All right. Page builders, [48:08] Elementor, BeaverBuilder, or pure [48:10] Gutenberg blocks? [48:12] >> Gutenberg blocks. [48:13] >> I like it. All right. Spin to win [48:15] discount wheel. Fun gamification or [48:17] immediately closed tab. [48:19] >> Uh, depends on your audience. [48:22] >> Oh, I like it. Depends. Depends what [48:24] you're giving away, maybe. All right. A [48:26] client has $500 left in their monthly [48:28] budget. Are they buying a plugin or one [48:30] hour of your developer time? [48:32] >> One hour of their developer time. [48:34] >> That's an agency owner. I knew it. [48:35] >> Y [48:37] I do have besides Woo Commerce, what is [48:40] one must have plugin that every single [48:41] store needs? [48:43] >> Oh gosh. Now, that's a hard one, dude. [48:46] Check out WC. Check out WC. That's an [48:48] easy answer. All right. AI gener. We're [48:51] almost there. We're almost there. AI [48:52] generated product descriptions. [48:53] Timesaver or Soulcrusher? [48:56] >> Um, both. [48:58] >> Both. I don't disagree. You need some [49:00] description in there, right? All right. [49:02] What's scarier? Last one. The nightmare [49:04] scenario. What's scarier? 500 server air [49:06] during Black Friday sale or a client [49:08] with just one quick idea for the [49:10] checkout page. [49:11] >> Definitely the 500 because we could I [49:14] think we we could tell our clients to [49:16] settle down as far as the last minute uh [49:18] customization. Anything happen on a [49:20] Black Friday sale that is not people [49:22] buying is probably the worst case [49:23] scenario, right? So, [49:25] >> yep. [49:26] >> All right. Pretty good. That was [49:27] painless, right? A little rapid fire. [49:28] That was kind of fun. I do wish I had [49:29] sound effects, but [49:30] >> I checked my heart rate on my Apple [49:32] Watch. Let's see. [49:33] >> Did it get to the spike? [49:36] You're in a loud, nervous environment. [49:39] >> Um, no, this was a lot of fun, Cody. I [49:41] really appreciate appreciate you coming [49:42] on. Um, you know, we had a a really [49:44] great conversation around commerce and, [49:47] you know, everything that, you know, [49:48] we're doing around modernization. As I [49:50] pull up my slide here and kind of [49:51] ramble, but um, real quick, I want to [49:53] give you an opportunity to just tell [49:54] people how they can find you online. How [49:55] do they reach out and find Cody and and [49:57] work with Mode Effect? [49:58] >> Yeah, modifact.com. Uh, you can find us [50:01] there. And then, um, if you want to [50:03] connect with me, LinkedIn's probably the [50:05] best place. Just search up my name link [50:07] on LinkedIn, Cody Landerfeld. And then [50:09] um if you dare uh on X, you could find [50:13] me at Cody L, but there's not not a [50:16] whole lot of business advice I'm giving [50:17] out on there. More so on LinkedIn. So [50:19] find me on there and uh look forward to [50:21] connecting with anybody. Awesome. Yeah, [50:23] definitely track Cody down on LinkedIn [50:24] at Brad Williamsdevstudios.com. [50:28] Williamsba pretty much everywhere. If [50:30] it's not, just add a one or two ones [50:32] until you find me. Um but yeah, [50:34] Williamsba, you'll find me. So [50:36] definitely reach out. We're very [50:37] approachable. We love just sharing [50:38] advice and uh Cody, really appreciate [50:40] you coming on, man. Um this has been a [50:41] lot of fun. Shared a lot of great [50:43] advice. Um if anyone's what you out in [50:45] the Phoenix area or just look up [50:47] modif.com, modif.com [50:49] and reach out to Cody and his team [50:51] there. They're killing it. And like you [50:52] said, they don't just do Woo Commerce, [50:53] they're an e-commerce agency. So if [50:54] you're selling stuff online, go talk to [50:56] Cody and his team. They'll take care of [50:58] you. [50:58] >> Absolutely. Debac [51:01] >> Phillies, it's baseball season. Even [51:03] though it's like negative10 out right [51:04] now, but I am so ready for warm weather [51:06] in baseball. So [51:07] >> yeah. So that's that's one way we're [51:09] like not on the same page there. Brad, [51:11] you said we're friendly and then until [51:12] it comes down to our baseball team. [51:13] >> Until baseball I'm more passionate about [51:15] because my Raiders just haven't even [51:16] played football in 20 years. So uh I'll [51:20] be I'll be uh once the Raiders actually [51:22] get good, you won't want to be around [51:23] me. But I hope it's coming. But we'll [51:25] end it there. So thank you for tuning [51:27] in. And again, we got the replay up on [51:29] YouTube. So until next time, I think we [51:31] have another fun one next month. So [51:32] watch out. We will announce it as soon [51:34] as we have it scheduled. So, uh, thanks [51:36] for joining and we'll see you soon. [51:38] Thanks everybody.