The Modern WooCommerce Playbook Safe Iteration & Scaling [01khcc0sz1mpcfgdgx29ak4a1x]

The Modern WooCommerce Playbook: Safe Iteration & Scaling 🔗 **Source:** [The Modern WooCommerce Playbook: Safe Iteration & Scaling](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIs5reI26n0) > [!note]+ Document Notes > tags: [woocommerce, ecommerce, modernization, wordpress, performance] > author: WebDev Studios and ModEffect > source: YouTube > reference: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIs5reI26n0] > date created: 2024-12-24 10:32 > > # 🏷️ Title: The Modern WooCommerce Playbook: Safe Iteration & Scaling >  ## 🧰 Action Inbox - [H1] Audit current plugins for performance impact — checkout experience optimization #performance - [H2] Evaluate hosting provider for WooCommerce-specific features — database query optimization #infrastructure - [H3] Consider Theme Switcher Pro for iterative modernization — avoid full rebuild risks #modernization ## 🧭 Table of Contents - [📝 Summary](#-summary) - [📖 Main Content](#-main-content) - [🗒️ Notes](#️-notes) - [📚 References](#-references) - [🗣️ Paraphrase](#️-paraphrase) - [📰 Newsletter](#-newsletter) - [✅ Action Items](#-action-items) - [🧪 Hypotheses](#-hypotheses) - [📊 Methodology](#-methodology) - [❓ Questions](#-questions) - [🔮 Future Research](#-future-research) - [💡 Implications](#-implications) - [🧠 Learning Styles Assessment](#-learning-styles-assessment) - [📊 Accessibility Assessment](#-accessibility-assessment) - [🌍 DEIB Assessment](#-deib-assessment) - [✅ Logical Validity](#-logical-validity) - [🛡️ DARVO Analysis](#-darvo-analysis) - [🎯 Conclusion](#-conclusion) ### 🔗 References - [CheckoutWC](https://checkoutwc.com) - [Theme Switcher Pro](https://themeswitcher.com) ## 📝 Summary - Brad Williams and Cody Landefeld discuss modernizing WooCommerce stores safely without full platform rebuilds - Key focus on performance optimization, plugin management, and iterative improvements over panic-driven migrations - Addresses common pain points: checkout UX, hosting requirements, and when to seek professional help - Introduces Theme Switcher Pro as solution for gradual modernization - Bottom line: WooCommerce remains powerful for complex stores with proper optimization strategies ## 📖 Main Content WooCommerce powers approximately 35% of all e-commerce websites and runs on 20% of all WordPress sites, making it a dominant platform in the open-source e-commerce space. The speakers emphasize that successful WooCommerce optimization requires understanding the platform's strengths (complex product configurations, subscriptions, customization) versus simpler solutions like Shopify for basic product catalogs. The core challenge many store owners face is "modernization panic" - the urge to completely rebuild or switch platforms when performance issues arise. However, most problems stem from plugin bloat, inappropriate hosting, or suboptimal configurations rather than fundamental platform limitations. The speakers advocate for iterative improvements over complete overhauls. Performance emerges as the critical factor, especially during checkout processes where dynamic content cannot be cached. This requires specialized hosting that understands WooCommerce's unique requirements beyond standard WordPress caching strategies. ## 🗒️ Notes #### ⏱️ [00:00](https://youtu.be/YIs5reI26n0?t=0) — [H1] Introduction and speaker credentials - Key idea: Both speakers have 15-20 years experience with WooCommerce since platform inception - Evidence: "We've been building enterprise large WordPress focused websites for a long time, including WooCommerce" #### ⏱️ [03:45](https://youtu.be/YIs5reI26n0?t=225) — [H2] WordPress and WooCommerce market dominance - Key idea: WordPress powers 43% of internet, WooCommerce runs on 20% of WordPress sites - Evidence: "9% of all websites...approximately about one in five WordPress sites has WooCommerce running on it" #### ⏱️ [06:12](https://youtu.be/YIs5reI26n0?t=372) — [H2] Platform agnostic philosophy - Key idea: No perfect e-commerce platform exists - success depends on implementation quality - Evidence: "There are no perfect platforms. It really comes down to the size of your business" #### ⏱️ [08:30](https://youtu.be/YIs5reI26n0?t=510) — [H3] Plugin bloat as primary performance issue - Key idea: DIY store builders accumulate performance-killing plugins without understanding impact - Evidence: "So many plugins...becomes a smorgasbord of bloat that causes problems with site speed" #### ⏱️ [12:15](https://youtu.be/YIs5reI26n0?t=735) — [H2] Checkout experience as conversion bottleneck - Key idea: Cart and checkout processes are where performance issues become revenue-impacting - Evidence: "Where the game changes is when there's something in the cart and you try to check out" #### ⏱️ [15:45](https://youtu.be/YIs5reI26n0?t=945) — [H2] WooCommerce sweet spot identification - Key idea: Complex products, variations, and subscriptions favor WooCommerce over Shopify - Evidence: "Complex side of WooCommerce really works well for products with a ton of different variations" #### ⏱️ [18:30](https://youtu.be/YIs5reI26n0?t=1110) — [H3] Shopify limitations at scale - Key idea: Larger businesses get only 70-80% functionality from Shopify, costs scale rapidly - Evidence: "Shopify Plus, I think...close to three grand per month" #### ⏱️ [22:00](https://youtu.be/YIs5reI26n0?t=1320) — [H2] Hosting as critical infrastructure decision - Key idea: E-commerce requires specialized hosting that understands uncacheable checkout processes - Evidence: "E-commerce has special set of requirements...some of it can't be cached" #### ⏱️ [25:10](https://youtu.be/YIs5reI26n0?t=1510) — [H3] CheckoutWC plugin recommendation - Key idea: Default WooCommerce checkout UX needs improvement for conversion optimization - Evidence: "Out of the box WooCommerce checkout experience...is just not great" #### ⏱️ [28:45](https://youtu.be/YIs5reI26n0?t=1725) — [H2] HPOS (High Performance Order System) benefits - Key idea: WooCommerce's new order system significantly improves database performance - Evidence: "Really good success...especially with stores doing subscription...automated orders" #### ⏱️ [32:30](https://youtu.be/YIs5reI26n0?t=1950) — [H2] When to seek professional help - Key idea: Consult experts early to avoid costly rebuilds, even during DIY phase - Evidence: "Book a consultation...understand the roadmap you're going down" #### ⏱️ [36:15](https://youtu.be/YIs5reI26n0?t=2175) — [H2] Agency vs in-house developer economics - Key idea: $100K salary gets one generalist vs team of specialists from agency - Evidence: "You can hire a firm...has a team of experts...different skill sets" #### ⏱️ [40:00](https://youtu.be/YIs5reI26n0?t=2400) — [H1] Theme Switcher Pro demonstration - Key idea: Iterative modernization through selective theme switching by page/section - Evidence: "Switch the theme on a page at a time...based on category, custom post type" #### ⏱️ [43:30](https://youtu.be/YIs5reI26n0?t=2610) — [H3] Page builder compatibility - Key idea: Theme Switcher works with BeaverBuilder, Divvy, and other popular page builders - Evidence: "Compatible with BeaverBuilder, Divvy...we have a compatibility section" ## 📚 References - [CheckoutWC Plugin](https://checkoutwc.com) - [Theme Switcher Pro](https://themeswitcher.com) - [WebDev Studios](https://webdevstudios.com) - [ModEffect Agency](https://modeffect.com) ## 🗣️ Paraphrase - WooCommerce remains the dominant open-source e-commerce platform but requires strategic optimization rather than panic-driven platform migrations - Performance issues typically stem from plugin bloat and inappropriate hosting rather than fundamental platform limitations - The platform excels for complex product catalogs, subscriptions, and customization needs that exceed Shopify's capabilities at enterprise scale ## 📰 Newsletter **WooCommerce Optimization Without the Rebuild Headache** Thinking your WooCommerce store needs a complete overhaul? Think again. Industry veterans Brad Williams and Cody Landefeld share battle-tested strategies for modernizing your store iteratively, focusing on performance wins over platform panic. **Key Takeaway**: Most "platform problems" are actually plugin bloat and hosting issues. Start with checkout optimization using CheckoutWC, audit your plugin stack, and ensure your host understands e-commerce caching requirements. **Smart Move**: Consider Theme Switcher Pro for gradual modernization - swap themes page by page instead of risking full rebuilds. Resources: [CheckoutWC](https://checkoutwc.com), [Theme Switcher Pro](https://themeswitcher.com), [Learn WordPress](https://learn.wordpress.org/) ## ✅ Action Items #### WordPress - Core: Validate HPOS adoption impact on large WooCommerce installations - Performance: Document e-commerce-specific caching strategies and limitations - Documentation: Create hosting requirements guide for WooCommerce optimization - Plugins: Audit popular WooCommerce extensions for performance impact patterns #### Community - Maintainers: Develop WooCommerce performance testing templates for agencies - Contributors: Create plugin audit checklists for common performance bottlenecks - Ecosystem: Foster hosting provider education on e-commerce requirements ## 🧪 Hypotheses - Theme Switcher Pro adoption will reduce WooCommerce rebuild projects by 40% - Proper hosting migration alone improves checkout conversion rates by 15-25% - HPOS implementation provides 2x performance improvement for subscription-heavy stores - CheckoutWC integration reduces checkout abandonment by 10-20% over default WooCommerce ### 📊 Methodology - A/B testing checkout experiences with and without CheckoutWC optimization - Performance benchmarking pre/post HPOS implementation across store sizes - Hosting provider comparison study for WooCommerce-specific optimizations ### ❓ Questions - What specific metrics should store owners track to identify modernization needs? - How can WooCommerce core improve default checkout UX to match Shopify standards? - What hosting configurations provide optimal performance for high-volume subscription stores? ### 🔮 Future Research - WooCommerce block theme adoption patterns and performance impacts - Headless commerce viability for mid-market WooCommerce stores - AI-driven plugin compatibility and performance prediction ### 💡 Implications - Practice: Iterative modernization reduces project risk and maintains revenue continuity - Policy: Hosting providers need WooCommerce-specific optimization standards - Security: Plugin auditing becomes critical for performance and vulnerability management - Education: Store owners need framework for evaluating true vs perceived platform limitations ### 🧠 Learning Styles Assessment Reading level estimate: Flesch-Kincaid Grade Level 10 #### 👀 Visual learners - Present: Live demo of Theme Switcher Pro, performance comparison screenshots - Improve: Plugin audit flowcharts, hosting decision trees, before/after performance graphs #### 🔊 Aural learners - Present: Conversational webinar format with expert dialogue - Improve: Audio-only version with timestamp summaries #### 🗣️ Verbal learners - Present: Clear definitions of technical terms, platform comparisons, analogies - Improve: Glossary of WooCommerce optimization terms #### 🧩 Kinesthetic learners - Present: Step-by-step plugin audit process, hands-on demo - Improve: Interactive performance testing checklist, sandbox environment #### 🧠 Logical learners - Present: Market share statistics, cost-benefit analysis for agency vs in-house - Improve: Decision matrix for platform selection, ROI calculations #### 🧑‍🤝‍🧑 Social learners - Present: Expert discussion format, community resource sharing - Improve: Peer review groups for store optimization #### 🧘‍♀️ Solitary learners - Present: Detailed technical explanations, self-assessment frameworks - Improve: Individual audit worksheets, reflection prompts #### 🌿 Naturalistic learners - Present: Organic problem-solving approach, ecosystem thinking - Improve: Platform lifecycle analogies, sustainable growth frameworks ### 📊 Accessibility Assessment #### Screen reader semantics - Present: Clear heading structure, descriptive video content - Improve: Detailed alt text for demo screenshots, transcript formatting #### Keyboard navigation - Present: Standard video controls accessible - Improve: Chapter navigation, skip links for demo sections #### Contrast and readability - Present: High contrast presentation slides - Improve: Captions with sufficient color contrast #### Media and captions - Present: Full video transcript provided - Improve: Time-synced captions, audio descriptions for visual demos ### 🌍 DEIB Assessment #### Cultural breadth - Present: Discussion of various business sizes and models - Improve: Global hosting considerations, international e-commerce examples #### Inclusive language - Present: Gender-neutral business examples, accessible technical explanations - Improve: Avoid agency/client power dynamic language #### Neurodiversity support - Present: Clear section breaks, consistent presentation structure - Improve: Written summary of key points, reduced cognitive load #### Representation - Present: Two different agency perspectives, varied business scenarios - Improve: Diverse case studies, inclusive imagery ### ✅ Logical Validity #### Strong reasoning - Deductive strength: Market statistics lead to platform viability conclusions - Inductive strength: Multiple client examples support optimization patterns - Causal reasoning: Plugin bloat → performance issues → revenue impact - Analogical strength: Batman utility belt analogy for tool selection #### Fallacies - Appeal to authority: Relies heavily on speakers' experience without external validation - False dilemma: Oversimplifies Shopify vs WooCommerce decision #### Tone of voice - Overall tone: Collaborative and educational with practical expertise ### 🛡️ DARVO Analysis - No DARVO patterns detected - content focuses on technical solutions rather than defensive positioning ## 🎯 Conclusion WooCommerce optimization doesn't require platform abandonment or complete rebuilds. The key is understanding that most performance and user experience issues stem from implementation choices rather than platform limitations. By focusing on iterative improvements - plugin audits, proper hosting, checkout optimization, and selective theme switching - store owners can modernize safely while maintaining revenue continuity. The combination of technical expertise and gradual implementation provides a sustainable path forward for growing e-commerce businesses. ## 🧱 Refactor Appendix ### 📚 Literature Split Pad Purpose: Stage CEE units that become Literature notes. Split level: H3 ### [H1] Plugin bloat degrades WooCommerce performance systematically > [!quote] [The Modern WooCommerce Playbook](https://youtu.be/YIs5reI26n0) by WebDev Studios and ModEffect via YouTube. Published 2024. Accessed 2024-12-24. > "So many plugins...becomes a smorgasbord of bloat that causes problems with site speed" DIY store builders accumulate plugins without understanding cumulative performance impact on checkout processes. [view highlight](https://youtu.be/YIs5reI26n0?t=510#H3) #xref #articleseed ID:rw_plugin_bloat ### [H2] E-commerce hosting requires uncacheable process optimization > [!quote] [The Modern WooCommerce Playbook](https://youtu.be/YIs5reI26n0) > "E-commerce has special set of requirements...some of it can't be cached" Cart and checkout interactions demand database queries that cannot utilize traditional WordPress caching strategies. [view highlight](https://youtu.be/YIs5reI26n0?t=1320#H2) #xref ID:rw_ecommerce_hosting --- ### 🔖 Atomic Split Pad (Zettel Candidates --- ## Full Transcript [00:01] Let me tell you because we got my man, [00:03] one of my buddies, Cody L on this and [00:06] we're talking the modern Woo Commerce [00:08] playbook, safe iteration scaling. We're [00:10] going to dig into Woo Commerce. We're [00:11] going to dig out a lot of options. [00:12] Cody's Cody and I have been working on [00:14] Woo Commerce really since the start of [00:15] Woo Commerce. So, we've got a lot of uh [00:17] a lot of stuff to dig into today. So, [00:19] let's get to it. First, who are we? [00:22] Well, I'm with WebDev Studios. Cody's [00:24] with his company agency mode Effect. Uh [00:27] we're in our 18th year at WebDev [00:28] Studios. I'm a co-founder and partner. [00:30] So, we've been building enterprise large [00:32] uh WordPress focused websites for a long [00:35] time, including Woo Commerce. A lot of [00:36] work with Woo Commerce over the years. [00:38] Um, it's really uh excited to kind of [00:40] dig in today and share some of our [00:41] experiences. Um, uh, yeah, so it's going [00:44] to be fun. And of course, Cody, I'll let [00:46] you introduce yourself. [00:48] >> Absolutely. Thanks for having me on, [00:49] Brad. So, Cody Landerfeld, co-founder at [00:53] ModC. And uh gosh, I think collectively [00:56] we've been around maybe 20 years or so. [00:59] Um I myself started my agency back 15 [01:02] years. I'm going to give you way more [01:03] information than you asked for, but [01:04] anyhow, we are uh primarily focused on [01:09] helping online stores with their [01:12] development needs and also digital [01:14] marketing. So we kind of have the full [01:16] surround of services for online stores [01:19] and people doing e-commerce. And a big [01:22] part of that is on WooCommerce. So, [01:24] we're excited to come together and uh [01:26] help you all and give some uh tidbits of [01:29] advice on the platform. [01:32] >> Absolutely. So, what are we talking [01:34] about today? Woo! Woo! Commerce.com. If [01:38] you're not familiar with it, I'm [01:39] guessing if you're watching this, you [01:40] probably are, but we want to talk a [01:42] little bit about what we're going to [01:43] cover today and then we'll dive into [01:45] some some data around Woo Commerce and [01:47] kind of get after it. So, first we'll [01:48] give a real quick overview of Woo [01:50] Commerce. Again, we're assuming you kind [01:51] of have an understanding of what it is. [01:52] We'll talk a little bit about the [01:53] numbers and really how big of a platform [01:55] it is. Uh modernization without panic. [01:58] This is going to be a fun one, right? A [01:59] lot of people are seeing new things out [02:01] there, new shiny objects around [02:03] performance and scaling and you know, [02:04] what should they be looking at? What [02:06] should we do if we need to modernize? [02:07] This is all, you know, flip it upside [02:09] down and start over or are there better [02:11] ways to do it? That's what we're going [02:12] to get into today. Smarter growth for [02:14] store owners and agencies. Um and also [02:16] kind of the business side of it for more [02:18] for store store owners, right? Is this [02:19] do you have an in-house team? Do you [02:21] work with an agency like Cody or myself? [02:23] Do you you know do you have some other [02:25] setup? Like let's talk about some ways [02:26] that work um and what we've seen over [02:28] our experience too. And of course at the [02:30] end I want to touch on our newest [02:31] product Switcher Pro and really kind of [02:33] dig into some iterative modernization [02:35] using our product. So I'll do a quick uh [02:37] a really quick live demo at the end. If [02:40] you're not able to stay for the full [02:41] webinar that's fine. We have the whole [02:42] thing is published on YouTube. You can [02:44] watch it right after the event. Um so [02:46] don't feel like if you missed part it's [02:47] gone. you can come back and catch it [02:49] later. So, um, but let's jump in because [02:51] we got a lot to cover. So, WordPress is [02:53] is a powerhouse. It still is. A lot of [02:55] people think WordPress is is is [02:57] shrinking and while it's plateaued a lot [02:59] the last couple years, it's really [03:00] holding steady right around 43% of the [03:03] entire internet. So, people say, "Oh, [03:05] it's down.1%." [03:07] This is of the entire internet. This is [03:09] a staggering number of websites still [03:11] running WordPress today. uh you know [03:13] almost 500 million uh known sites [03:16] globally uh powered by WordPress uh [03:18] forget all the things behind you know [03:20] pay walls and or you know loginins and [03:22] things that can't even be counted. So [03:24] now of that if we break down Woo [03:26] Commerce. So Woo Commerce is a plugin [03:28] for WordPress. It's a plugin that [03:29] incorporates a lot of advanced [03:31] functionality for e-commerce. It turns [03:32] your WordPress website uh adds a whole [03:35] e-commerce store to your website, right? [03:36] So it is a plugin within WordPress. You [03:38] have to have WordPress to run Woo [03:40] Commerce. Um now if you just separate [03:42] that out and look at Woo Commerce in [03:43] terms of how many websites are running [03:45] Woo Commerce, 9% of all websites. So [03:49] approximately about 20 it's a it's a [03:51] staggering number about one in five [03:53] websites WordPress sites has Woo [03:56] Commerce running on it. Um and if you [03:58] look at just e-commerce as a whole Woo [04:00] Commerce is about 35% of that. So Woo [04:02] Commerce is a large chunk. It's it's one [04:04] of the it's the top e-commerce uh [04:06] certainly a top open source e-commerce [04:08] platform and it powers a huge chunk of [04:10] the internet for good reason because [04:11] it's a great platform. It's open source. [04:13] It's endlessly extensible. You can do [04:15] anything you want with it, right? which [04:17] can be a blessing and a curse, which I'm [04:19] sure we'll talk about a little bit more. [04:20] So, some big numbers, but I think it [04:22] helps sets the stage that Woo Commerce [04:24] is a dominant player in the e-commerce [04:27] space and a dominant player in the [04:28] open-source e-commerce space. So, a lot [04:31] of people are using it, a lot of [04:32] opportunities for not only if you're a [04:33] builder, implement agency to work with [04:35] it for your clients or if you are a [04:38] owner of a a store website, a good [04:40] opportunity for look at if you're [04:41] looking to roll out a store or change [04:43] your platform. So, we're not getting to [04:45] thank yous just yet, but I'm going to [04:46] stop sharing. I don't have a ton of [04:47] slides. I'd rather you just look at our [04:49] faces while we talk and maybe do some [04:50] screen sharing. Um, but let's dive into [04:53] it. So, one of the first things we want [04:54] to kind of get into, Cody, is and this [04:57] is something I think if you've worked [04:58] with really if you built websites in any [05:00] capacity for a period of time, this [05:02] comes up. But specifically, I want to [05:04] talk about, you know, your e-commerce [05:05] WooCommerce platform, which is really [05:07] modernization, right? So it's very you [05:09] know web and the tech and and and what [05:12] people do and designs and everything it [05:14] just the only constant is change right [05:17] it's always evolving so you could have [05:18] an amazingly beautiful website today in [05:21] a year or two now it could look very [05:23] dated right so u and many times there's [05:25] a kind of a knee-jerk reaction to that [05:27] right it's like hey I got to modernize [05:28] we got to do something different we need [05:29] to jump over to this platform or that [05:31] platform or do you know and it's it's [05:32] almost just like let's take a breath [05:35] here so you know Cody I want to kind of [05:36] pass this over to you but when when one [05:38] of your clients or even maybe just [05:40] somebody walks in the door and says, [05:41] "Look, our our, you know, we're on Woo [05:43] Commerce. It's just feeling stale. Maybe [05:44] we need to go to Shopify. Everyone's, [05:46] you know, we're hearing that buzz. Is [05:47] that is it time to jump ship to [05:48] modernize?" What's your reaction to [05:50] that? How do you respond to that? [05:53] >> Yeah, I hear that almost every single [05:55] day with people that are, you know, [05:57] maybe either clients that work with us [05:59] or people that just come through our [06:01] front door and they're asking for advice [06:03] on what to do with their platform. And [06:05] my answer being sort of a, you know, [06:08] agnostic e-commerce shop at least on the [06:12] front door is that there are no perfect [06:15] platforms. Um, it really comes down to [06:18] the size of your business and your [06:20] store. I think that that it is really [06:23] tricky when your site's getting built up [06:26] when you're first starting out and you [06:29] get to a certain threshold of sales. [06:32] that is where it's difficult to sort of [06:35] get to a certain point and determine [06:38] what makes sense as far as a platform. [06:40] So, I think for your simpler stores, you [06:45] you you definitely can look at Shopify [06:47] as getting online. And I think it's if [06:50] you have a techsavvy background or if [06:53] you've tinkered a little bit, you could [06:55] still get yourself online fairly quick [06:57] with Woo Commerce because, you know, you [06:59] can even start that journey on [07:00] WordPress.com. [07:02] But I think where you really start to [07:04] determine where there's good par is once [07:06] you have sort of your, you know, your [07:09] site to a certain level, um, where you [07:13] have sales, where you actually have a [07:14] business, then it kind of makes sense to [07:17] weigh out what features you use inside [07:19] of the platform because it, and we'll [07:22] probably get to this later on, but [07:23] basically there there are ways to [07:25] determine what true parody is as far as [07:28] platforms. So my answer is just wherever [07:31] you are, it takes work to make that [07:34] platform be the best match for your [07:36] online business. [07:38] >> Yeah, I mean that's a great point. Like [07:40] it's it's it kind of rings a bell in my [07:42] head of something I'm talking about with [07:43] my my company of the the project [07:45] management tool we use and it's like [07:46] we've used different ones over the years [07:48] and none of them are perfect, right? And [07:50] it's basically like our answer now is [07:52] well this is the least worst out of all [07:54] the ones we've used [07:56] >> which doesn't sound great but it's like [07:57] it's to your point of they're as good [07:59] they're only one is only as good as [08:01] you're going to make them and work with [08:02] them right but it is there is never a [08:04] perfect platform ever right ever like [08:06] and I mean you could have endless [08:08] budgets endless time I mean look at [08:09] Amazon right but they're never done [08:11] right they're always still building [08:12] improving and modernizing so it's never [08:14] done but it's also kind of thinking that [08:16] longer term so so like what is the [08:18] psychological kind of [08:20] you know, I guess the the the thought or [08:22] idea when someone's like, I need to [08:23] modernize and and and many times it is [08:25] that knee-jerk, maybe it's not this [08:27] isn't working for me. Maybe I should try [08:29] something else. But when you start to [08:31] kind of dig in, you know, as I like to [08:32] say, peel back the onion and really get [08:34] to what is the challenge, [08:36] >> as you and I have talked before, that's [08:39] when you realize it isn't really the [08:40] platform specific. It's how they're [08:42] maybe using the platform or maybe things [08:44] they're not using that they could be [08:46] using or integrations they're not doing. [08:48] Can you speak a little bit about that [08:49] where it's like kind of, you know, kind [08:51] of getting to the point the the the root [08:52] of what their issues are versus just [08:55] saying, "Yeah, let's flip it all upside [08:56] down and and change, [08:58] >> right?" Yeah. I mean, so often I see [09:01] folks that are, you know, in that DIY [09:04] situation, right? So, you got people [09:06] that build their website on their own or [09:08] they hire a freelancer or get a small [09:11] team to help them get online. And that's [09:14] a good way to start. You know, you want [09:15] to get yourself set up and be able to [09:18] start making transactions and see what [09:20] kind of traffic you can bring to your [09:22] website. And then after that, once [09:24] you've hit a certain threshold of sales, [09:27] then then it really helps you kind of [09:30] determine what's working, what's not. [09:32] And what I see a lot of times is that [09:36] there is so many there are so many [09:38] plugins and there are so many themes and [09:40] things that you can add to your website [09:42] that you know becomes a smorgus board of [09:45] of just bloat of things that just cause [09:49] problems with your site speed. [09:51] Especially when people add things to to [09:54] cart and they want to check out. That's [09:56] typically where you see problems [09:57] happening because, you know, you can hop [09:58] onto any of these, you know, manage web [10:01] hosts, which are all, you know, there's [10:02] so many great ones out there and you can [10:05] get a fast site, but where the game [10:07] changes is when there's something in the [10:10] cart and you try to check out, that's [10:13] typically when it creates some type of a [10:15] unique browsing experience and you tend [10:18] to see slowdowns. So that's when you [10:21] kind of need to take a step back as a [10:23] store owner and understand what kind of [10:25] plugins am I running on my website. What [10:28] are the things that are causing me to [10:30] understand or rather understand why I'm [10:34] having problems with speed or why I'm [10:35] having problems with [10:38] making good headway wherever you might [10:41] be in a competitive space. Why is your [10:43] site slower than your competitor's site? [10:45] Um I think there's a lot of things to [10:47] look at and then just try to understand [10:50] what things can you do without what [10:52] things um can you try to take out of [10:56] your website to simplify your experience [10:58] and it's a journey you know there's no I [11:01] I think a lot of people that are might [11:04] listen to this and certainly a lot of [11:06] people that I meet on a day-to-day basis [11:09] they're always in this predicament where [11:11] it's you know add whatever the popular [11:13] plugins are do whatever Google or sorry [11:17] what AI is telling you to do nowadays um [11:20] to add to your website. It's it's easy [11:22] to fall victim into that and not know [11:24] what the best and breed plugins are and [11:26] what's going to cause your website to [11:28] run most optimally. So, um and like I [11:32] said, there's no easy way to find that [11:34] out until you're kind of rubber meets [11:36] the road, taking transactions, getting [11:39] traffic, and understanding how your [11:41] website holds up against that. [11:43] Yeah, I mean you you touched on this the [11:46] term you use like the shiny object, [11:48] right? Like the the that is the blessing [11:50] and the curse of honestly WordPress but [11:52] also Woo Commerce of it is so easy to [11:55] install a plug-in [11:56] >> and start turn it on and start using it, [11:59] right? And um like you said, many stores [12:02] start small and many of these stores [12:04] have were built by the store owner in [12:06] some way, right? And so they're trying [12:08] things, but then when you start to see [12:09] that success, which we all want for for [12:11] those online stores, that starts to add [12:14] up right now. You have 30 plugins [12:16] running and you're starting to do some [12:18] significant sales. That's going to have [12:19] an impact on Yeah. performance, low [12:21] times, and performance is such a huge [12:23] metric, especially in e-commerce, as we [12:25] all know. You know, little fractions of [12:27] a second can lose sales. So, um, [12:29] performance is always the number one [12:30] thing we're focused on here, right? So, [12:32] if they're adding all these plugins for [12:34] us, you know, kind of going back to what [12:36] is the root cause or what is the the the [12:38] the reason why they're doing this is [12:40] trying to understand, well, what is why [12:41] did you add that plugin? What is it [12:43] you're trying to is it just to get like [12:44] make another sale because you think it's [12:46] going to add another call to action [12:47] button or something? Is it somehow [12:49] optimizing your checkout process? It's [12:50] it's it's from our perspective, it's um [12:53] it's having more intention on what [12:55] you're doing and what it's really [12:56] focused on the goal and working back [12:58] from there. I always like to to align [13:00] what we do with like Batman and his bat [13:02] belt, right? Like we got a lot of tools, [13:04] a lot of things we could use for this [13:06] whatever the situation is, but what's [13:08] the best one for them? What's the best [13:10] one for you, right? So, you know, I'd [13:12] love to hear a little bit more about how [13:13] you you kind of uh handle those [13:14] situations, too. [13:16] >> Yeah. So, obviously, one of the biggest [13:20] things to focus on is the front end of [13:21] your web. [13:23] >> Earlier, there's a lot of web hosts that [13:24] can give you a fast site that's cached. [13:28] You get there and things load in really [13:30] quick, but it starts to have some [13:31] problems once you add things to the [13:34] cart. Now, think about your staff. Think [13:37] about your CSRs. Think about the people [13:39] that actually do fulfillment for your [13:40] site. There gets to a point of growth [13:44] for an online store that you have so [13:47] many plugins running on your site and [13:49] you have so many uh things in the back [13:52] end that cause the the actual logged in [13:55] dashboard experience to be just a mess [13:58] and super slow. And I hear that so [14:00] constantly with people that you know get [14:03] to this certain point of growth and that [14:05] that's sort of a neglected thing, right? [14:07] So I think going back to the shiny [14:10] object syndrome, there are so many [14:12] themes that will allow you to get a [14:14] website uh built quickly without code. [14:18] And we live in a time where, you know, [14:21] everybody can easily get a website. You [14:24] can go on a cloud, you can basically [14:27] tell it to design you a website, and you [14:29] could probably teach yourself how to put [14:31] together a theme. But a lot of people [14:33] will get on there and they'll set up a [14:35] theme that's got a builder and it will, [14:38] you know, set things up across the [14:41] website and you're loading in so many [14:44] things and you're causing so many [14:45] database queries and so that has an [14:48] impact not only on the front end of the [14:50] website but also on the back end of the [14:51] website. So you got to factor in your [14:53] opportunity cost here and determine you [14:56] know how do you fix that? And that's the [14:59] that's the challenging thing. Kind of [15:01] like you said, Brad, think about where [15:02] you want to be and then kind of take a [15:04] step back. There's no shame in taking [15:07] these methods to build your website and [15:09] doing a DIY process. I think if you've [15:12] gotten to this point where you're [15:14] getting sales and you know how to get [15:15] traffic to your website and you're [15:17] converting it, whichever way you get [15:19] there, it's a win, you know? So, so [15:21] don't fault yourself. And it's not a [15:24] it's not a race either. Like if you find [15:27] yourself a good partner, you have to [15:28] grow to a point where you can actually [15:30] afford to hire a good partner uh that [15:34] will help you with your WooCommerce [15:35] site. And then just come up with a game [15:38] plan of understanding what it is that [15:41] it's on your website that's sort of [15:43] causing you to get slowdowns on the [15:44] front end and what's causing your staff [15:46] to have all types of trouble on the back [15:49] end doing fulfillment and using the [15:51] dashboard overall. So, lots of things to [15:54] think about. So, I'll probably answer [15:55] that in the longest way possible. [15:57] >> No, I love it. And and you know, I think [16:00] too is people also lose sight of the [16:03] what a normal, you know, quote unquote [16:05] normal online customer. The experience [16:08] that they expect is a very specific [16:11] experience when you're buying something [16:12] online, right? Like we've had to talk [16:14] clients out of trying to make this [16:16] unique. Let's do it different than [16:18] everybody. I'm like that's not this [16:20] isn't the place you want to do things [16:21] like massively different. Like there is [16:23] a certain expectation when you buy [16:24] something online. There's a cart, [16:26] >> get your things in the cart, make sure [16:28] you got the quantities, whatever you [16:29] need, and then there's a checkout [16:30] process, right? You expect certain [16:31] things to happen in a certain order. Um, [16:33] generally speaking, right? That's not an [16:35] area to really experiment with UI and [16:36] weird UX. It's like you need things to [16:38] work a certain way, and you don't want [16:40] to confuse someone when they're getting [16:41] ready to give you a credit card number, [16:43] right? Or or pay for something. You need [16:44] to make it familiar. And I think that's [16:46] important, too, is don't just start [16:47] throwing things on there just because [16:48] you're trying to It needs to still be a [16:50] familiar process. you don't want this [16:51] Frankenstein checkout and they get to [16:53] the checkout and they don't realize [16:54] they're in a cart because it's so [16:56] convoluted with stuff that they've lost [16:57] the focus of where's the button to [16:59] actually finish paying for this thing, [17:00] right? So, it's also not losing what is [17:02] it? Not losing sight of the the the [17:04] forest through the trees or three [17:05] whatever, you know, like you got to [17:07] still focus on the number one thing [17:08] you're trying to do is make sales. So, [17:09] whatever you do, get out of their way [17:11] and make that easy, [17:12] >> right? The checkout experience is a big [17:14] thing to focus on because like you said, [17:17] adding all that friction and trying to [17:18] do it uniquely is just isn't the best [17:21] idea. And I'll say something [17:22] controversial. I don't think it's [17:23] controversial, but WooCommerce out of [17:26] the box [17:28] >> um hot take the uh the out of the box [17:31] WooCommerce checkout experience. This is [17:34] just not great. It's it's something that [17:36] is very much sort of a dogged type of [17:40] thing that a lot of people look at and [17:42] they point to Shopify as like, "Hey, I [17:44] like that, you know, user experience [17:46] that's very familiar, you know, because [17:49] you can get on to any Instagram ad [17:51] nowadays and you can be on a checkout [17:53] page on Shopify like that. So, there has [17:57] to be some type of UI and and fewer [17:59] steps in order to get through that." And [18:02] uh there's certainly ways to do that [18:03] with Woo Commerce, [18:05] >> you know, and it's a good point because [18:06] Shopify is kind of the the the the one [18:09] everyone's comparing Woo Commerce to. [18:11] It's really the second, you know, [18:12] platform up there from a SAS perspective [18:14] that's not open source, very different [18:16] kind of model, but it's it is a good [18:17] online store for many people, right? So [18:19] I think it kind of begs the the larger [18:21] question of like where is the sweet spot [18:24] for Woo Commerce? Like what is this? Is [18:26] it just selling products? Are there [18:28] opportunities where digital goods or [18:30] LMS's or something really out really [18:33] outperform on Woo Commerce versus trying [18:34] to set up other, you know, services that [18:37] work with Shopify? Like, and and this is [18:39] really, you know, I'm really asking you, [18:41] Cody, from your opinion, experience, [18:42] like where do you find that sweet spot [18:44] is? And you're like, this is exactly [18:46] what Woo Commerce just nails and people [18:48] love it all day long when they're kind [18:49] of in this area. Is that a question [18:51] that's possible to answer? And if it is, [18:52] I'd love to hear your thoughts. [18:54] >> Sure. So, I'll answer it with just [18:56] saying first and foremost, if you're [18:58] starting a business to sell clothes or [19:01] t-shirts that have, you know, six sizes [19:04] and three colors, it probably makes [19:07] sense to launch it on Shopify. And I'll [19:10] say that because the complex side of Woo [19:14] Commerce really works well for, you [19:19] know, when you get into products with a [19:20] ton of different variations, you have a [19:22] bunch of add-ons and you have sort of [19:24] complex uh buying processes or buying [19:28] journeys. Um, one thing that we see at [19:30] Modif, uh, some of a lot of our clients [19:34] are in using subscriptions on their [19:37] websites. And so it's been a wonderful [19:41] tool for their business to be able to [19:43] use Woo subscriptions and be able to [19:45] have their custom setups for all all [19:48] their variations and be able to set up [19:50] their website that's all geared towards [19:52] that subscription flow. So, I'd say [19:54] subscriptionbased sites both for [19:56] products and digital goods are a great [19:59] fit for Woo Commerce. I think there's uh [20:02] one of our clients is uh in the HVAC [20:04] space. So, they sell large uh HVAC [20:09] systems and have a lot of different uh [20:11] things that need to be added on there [20:12] and it's it's a pretty complex uh buying [20:16] journey. So you you know obviously it's [20:19] not for the faint of heart but obviously [20:21] WooCommerce is set up really well to be [20:23] able to handle that end to end and not [20:25] only just the front-end experience but [20:28] also from a customer service experience [20:31] where somebody's on the other side [20:33] inside of the website taking phone calls [20:35] or getting emails and putting orders [20:37] into the system and matching that up uh [20:40] both sides. So, I I think there there's [20:44] really great parody there. And, you [20:46] know, I'll say another thing. Um, I've [20:49] also had some conversations with people [20:51] that run their sites on Shopify. And [20:52] this is no, I'm not trying to throw [20:55] shade at Shopify. Obviously, I work on [20:58] Shopify sites. We'll we'll help clients [21:00] with those, too. But I've also had [21:03] conversations with stores that run on [21:06] Shopify. And for these larger [21:09] fulfillment instances with all types of [21:11] different things that they have to do [21:13] through their website, there's an [21:15] acknowledgment of the fact that they're [21:17] only getting really 70 to 80% [21:20] of what they want out of Shopify. And [21:24] the great thing about Woo Commerce is is [21:26] that you sort of have your own [21:28] development destiny that you can give to [21:31] your team and write out some type of a [21:36] uh you know like configuration or [21:38] whatever capabilities you need on your [21:40] website. And if you have a good partner, [21:42] they can build that out for you. And so [21:45] that's that's the beauty of a lot of [21:46] these plugins that are on Woo Commerce [21:49] that run or we would call them [21:51] extensions. You can further customize a [21:55] lot of those if you have a good team [21:56] that knows how to do that and get [21:58] exactly what you want on your platform [22:00] that best matches the the the way that [22:03] you do fulfillment or whatever way you [22:05] run your business from on on the [22:07] administrative side. And that's that's a [22:10] great thing and that's sort of where [22:11] your limitation would be on Shopify. So, [22:14] I'd say that, you know, that is [22:16] certainly that [22:18] revenue range that sort of hits towards [22:21] maybe you're 10 million and above when [22:23] you're around there in sales [22:25] >> because the cost of ownership on Shopify [22:29] is starting to get very large, you know, [22:31] with how many how many apps you got to [22:33] buy and how many just just if you're on [22:36] Shopify Plus, I think I want to say it's [22:38] close to three grand per month. [22:40] Somebody's going to fact check me on [22:42] that. scales. It scales quickly with [22:43] success, which you know with success [22:46] there's more of an investment you'd [22:47] expect, but it does start to scale up in [22:49] price very quickly once, [22:51] >> right? You can find a good partner and, [22:53] you know, so yeah. [22:54] >> Yeah, you can find a good partner to get [22:56] your hosting, you know, dialed in and [22:59] configured and spend significantly less [23:02] just at a baseline to run your store. So [23:04] anyway, um more to that, of course. [23:07] >> Yeah, I mean I I love everything you [23:10] said. I think um you know I I I like [23:12] Shopify too. Like this isn't just a dog [23:14] on Shopify, but it's it's right there [23:16] with Woo Commerce. So I think it's [23:17] always the one everyone's really [23:18] comparing the two right at the top right [23:20] now for e-commerce for most you know a [23:22] lot of the stores out there. So um and [23:24] it is the place I will recommend if [23:25] someone's like hey I got this product [23:26] idea [23:28] >> and you know they always just like you [23:29] I'm sure friends family you know come to [23:32] us. Can you fix my printer? Can you can [23:34] you launch an online store? Of course [23:35] I'm the tech guy. I do it all right. So, [23:37] but I'm like, I don't want to really set [23:39] that up and manage it. So, Shopify is a [23:41] great way to test your idea, right? Hey, [23:42] you get a couple sales, start to [23:44] validate your idea, you might have [23:45] something. And then when things start to [23:47] work, you want to then you want to make [23:48] the decision, well, where do I really [23:49] want to land? Because once it scales to [23:52] a certain point or even starts really [23:53] becoming successful, you know, that idea [23:55] of of switching platforms is not a small [23:59] lift. Um, even which either way you're [24:01] going, right? like there is a online [24:03] store, there is orders, there's a [24:04] customer history, there's accounts, [24:06] there's products, you know, inventory, [24:08] all this stuff that you'd have to go [24:09] from one system to another. So, it's a [24:11] it's a big lift going from one to the [24:12] other. So, you also want to be thinking [24:14] longer term of where do I want to be? [24:15] What are the costs going to look like [24:17] when I hit certain thresholds if I am on [24:18] Shopify and are those sustainable for [24:21] me? Or is now the time to switch over to [24:23] something Woo Commerce like you said, [24:24] really optimize the store to exactly how [24:26] you want it. find a really elegant, you [24:28] know, fairly inexpensive host, which [24:30] there are many out there that specialize [24:31] in, uh, WordPress and Woo Commerce. Um, [24:34] and away you go and your costs are going [24:36] to be significantly less, especially as [24:37] you scale up into to much more success [24:40] and a lot more sales, right? But, um, so [24:43] totally agree with that. I do want to, [24:45] uh, kind of po I want to get some a [24:46] little more specific on some of your [24:48] advice on some of these things. So, we [24:50] talked um, you know, we think about like [24:51] leakiest bucket, right? when you go into [24:53] a WooCommerce store and I'd be curious [24:55] like is there something like one thing [24:57] that really drains revenue without [24:59] owners even knowing it? Like is there [25:01] something that you know maybe not every [25:03] site you look at but is there something [25:04] that kind of stands out that's something [25:06] you see that's very common that either [25:08] hurts revenue you know hurts sales or [25:10] whatever and it seems to be like a [25:11] common pattern a lot of people try and [25:12] it just doesn't work the way they think [25:14] it will. Anything come to mind that [25:15] stands out that people need to be aware [25:16] of? [25:17] >> What's Cody's big tip here? [25:19] >> Yeah, there's there's a few here. Um, so [25:22] obviously your website, [25:23] >> whatever you got. [25:24] >> Yeah, website host I think is is one [25:26] thing. So there there's a specific I [25:28] mean gosh, one trying to isolate that. [25:31] So like obviously [25:33] >> couple things. Host for sure. That's [25:35] >> right. A macro thing to bring up would [25:37] just be sight speed. So I think the the [25:40] the thing that online store owners are [25:43] always chasing is better sight speed. [25:45] And it's kind of a known thing that Woo [25:48] Commerce can slow your you can slow your [25:50] website down pretty quick if you don't [25:53] have the right partner and you slap in [25:55] all these plugins and you have you know [25:57] a site builder that's that's loading a [26:00] million inquiries with each page load, [26:01] right? So um you know just just having [26:06] too many plugins on your website. [26:07] Obviously less plugins you can you can [26:09] utilize the better. um kind of going [26:12] back to what you were saying is like you [26:13] know it's no frills like having don't [26:15] try to reinvent the wheel having [26:17] simplified things another thing is uh [26:19] your checkout experience so obviously [26:22] going back to what we talked about I [26:24] think that the out of the box [26:27] WooCommerce checkout flow is sometimes a [26:30] little cumbersome for a lot of online [26:32] buyers so we sort of have a [26:35] recommendation for a plugin here we use [26:37] uh um Kestrel's plugin and check out WC [26:42] as a uh a good tool that that basically [26:46] gives you a very similar Shopify UI that [26:50] that you can configure onto your website [26:53] and you can do a lot of customization [26:54] there and I believe in their new version [26:56] they have AB testing as well. So that's [26:58] a really good tool. So, I'd say sight [27:01] speed, checkout, and then I'd say as [27:05] like a more of a [27:08] it's not really like something super [27:10] specific, but more of another macro [27:12] thing is that relationship between your [27:15] code and your host. So for instance, I [27:18] think a lot of people out there are just [27:20] having conversations saying, "Oh, we [27:22] need to go and get a faster server or, [27:26] oh, we need to get over here and get on [27:27] to AWS or get on to Google Cloud or, you [27:31] know, spend a lot more for their [27:32] hosting." and all of our hosting [27:34] partners are probably uh kind of um [27:37] upset with us right now, but there is [27:39] sort of a nuance and a and a [27:41] understanding of the process and the [27:43] time that it takes in order to get that [27:46] sort of right harmony between your [27:48] website and your host. So, one thing [27:51] that that Woo Commerce recently launched [27:53] not too long ago is uh HPOS, which is uh [27:57] the high performance order system. And [28:00] we've seen some really good success in a [28:02] lot of the sites we've been a enabling [28:04] that on to get really good wins across [28:07] the board, especially with stores that [28:09] are doing say a subscription store that [28:12] does a bunch of orders every single day [28:15] and does that automated. Uh we got some [28:18] really massive wins implementing that on [28:20] some mature stores and that's part of [28:23] that process with that maturity we have [28:25] with the software alongside the server. [28:28] So, I I'm kind of pointing out these [28:31] things and it's maybe a little bit of a [28:33] frustrating answer because aside from [28:36] checkout WC, there there just really [28:38] isn't an easy win. Uh yeah, especially [28:41] when you have these sort of um you know, [28:44] things that happen on your site. I'd say [28:47] for people that are spending money to [28:48] get traffic uh on ads or SEO or [28:52] whatever, there's definitely, you know, [28:55] just making sure that your website is [28:57] fully tuned to be fast and be able to be [29:01] conversion ready and and understanding [29:03] you have, you know, possibly some maybe [29:05] versions set up. Um, I'd say those are [29:08] some of the things that are that we see [29:11] often. Some of the things that we see [29:12] that kind of affects our clients ability [29:15] to be able to, you know, get the sales [29:17] that they're looking for. [29:19] >> Yeah, great advice. Check out wc.com [29:23] if you want to take a look at that. I [29:25] firmly agree with the host u [29:27] recommendation because [29:28] >> e-commerce has a special set of [29:31] requirements on a host because it's a if [29:34] you have a a marketing site, a content [29:36] site, caching is such an important part [29:38] of it, right? And that's what helps make [29:40] it blazing fast and you don't have to go [29:41] hit the database every time the page [29:42] loads. Well, with e-commerce, there's [29:45] some of that, right? But some of it [29:46] can't be cached, right? Like caching the [29:48] checkout process because you're live [29:50] interacting with the database, right? [29:51] So, it has to. And so that's where those [29:54] special considerations come in to make [29:55] sure you're working with a host that [29:56] truly understands that. Right? So if [29:58] you're not working with one, I would say [30:00] make sure it's a WordPress managed host, [30:02] right? Make sure it's somebody that [30:03] specializes specifically in WordPress. [30:06] Not just saying you can host WordPress [30:08] here, but they specialize it, right? And [30:09] then talk to them about Woo Commerce. [30:11] Say, "What do you do special for Woo [30:12] Commerce?" Knowing there's certain [30:13] considerations. If you start to have [30:15] success and orders are flowing in, like [30:17] you said, the last thing you want is [30:19] your host to, you know, and fall [30:21] over when people are trying to pay you [30:22] money. That is absolutely, you know, a [30:24] e-commerce website owner's nightmare, [30:26] right? Is like people want to pay and [30:28] the site breaks. So, um, you know, [30:30] definitely that is almost one of the [30:31] most important things. Make sure you're [30:32] on the right host because almost nothing [30:34] else will matter if you're not, right? [30:35] So, a lot of good recommendations out [30:37] there, a lot of articles, but definitely [30:39] manage WP, manage WordPress host, and [30:42] then make sure they have famili [30:43] familiarity with Woo Commerce and they [30:46] can actually speak intelligently about [30:47] it because if they're just pulling out [30:48] buzzwords and stuff, that should be a [30:50] big red flag. [30:51] >> Yeah. Don't don't uh launch your website [30:53] and then run a Super Bowl commercial and [30:56] with a country entry level Cloudflare [30:58] account. They spent like 70 million on [31:01] AI.com and like seven million on the [31:04] commercial and then it was like on a [31:06] basic Cloudflare free plan. [31:08] >> Yeah, it was like a $500 Cloudflare plan [31:11] or something. [31:11] >> I would I would have told them that for [31:13] a lot cheaper than what they spent on, [31:14] you know, all in. So, um, but they had [31:16] to talk with us, you know, [31:17] >> I validated that. I I was on the website [31:20] when I saw the the commercial ran and I [31:22] was like shocked the website just [31:24] wouldn't load. It was like totally [31:26] crashed. I'm like, you got to be kidding [31:27] me, man. I mean, you're spend all that [31:29] money for rush of traffic and you can't [31:31] handle. I mean, that is a site owner's [31:32] nightmare, right? You have a rush of [31:33] traffic and you can't handle it. Whether [31:34] you know it's coming, and if you know [31:36] it's coming, that's really inexcusable. [31:37] But when you don't know what's coming is [31:39] even more, like something goes viral, [31:40] some celebrity wears something you're [31:42] selling, and boom, you got a thousand [31:44] orders in overnight when you're [31:45] sleeping. That's when you need to make [31:47] sure your website's solid and the host [31:48] is solid because you don't want to miss [31:50] that opportunity because it may never [31:52] come again. Um, so I do want to go back [31:54] to a point uh we you kind of touched on [31:56] but I want to dig in a little bit more [31:57] and especially as as you know stores [32:00] start to have some success right they [32:01] start to grow you know many of the [32:03] stores start on like you said they they [32:05] build it they put them together [32:06] themselves they launch you know validate [32:08] the idea whatever they start to have [32:09] some success where is the threshold of [32:12] where a store should start looking for [32:13] outside help either freelancers agencies [32:16] like ours you know where is that and I [32:18] know it's not just a numbers thing of [32:19] well once you make 10 grand a month but [32:21] like of Course part of it is you got to [32:23] have the budget for stuff like that. But [32:24] like is there where is that when when [32:26] should shop owners start thinking okay [32:28] I'm getting to the point where this is [32:29] one beyond my skill set but two this is [32:31] getting it's going really well but I [32:33] need somebody that knows how to kind of [32:34] continue to grow and make sure it's not [32:36] going to fall over. Like how do you help [32:38] people understand that as you're kind of [32:39] guiding them on this on this uh [32:41] e-commerce journey? [32:43] >> Yeah. So I think again anybody who's [32:46] starting a business and starting an [32:47] online store DIY is great. you know, [32:50] start it out, get it as far as you can. [32:53] It's good to at least get somebody who's [32:55] a expert in the platform you're running [32:58] on just to get their ear. Just at least, [33:01] my advice to you if you're starting a [33:03] store, book a consultation with a [33:06] WooCommerce developer to be able to [33:08] understand, just at least prepare [33:10] yourself for what you're getting into [33:12] and kind of understand the road map [33:14] you're going down. Because what will [33:16] happen is when you get to that revenue [33:19] point where you can afford to hire a [33:21] firm or a developer, whatever, you're [33:25] going to have to undo a lot of the [33:27] things that you've done to get you get [33:29] you to the point where you're at. So, I [33:31] think it's good just to get I think you [33:34] know at Modifact we can I'm always [33:36] available for a free consult. I'll I'll [33:38] I'll talk to anybody who comes through [33:40] our front door just to give them [33:41] >> Cody's cell phone at the end here for [33:43] everyone just to [33:44] Yeah. Well, um, uh, [33:46] >> that's a I mean it's great advice [33:48] because like we're the same, right? You [33:50] walk in the door, we're going to have a [33:51] conversation, right? And then our big [33:53] philosophy and I know yours the same [33:55] because we talk about this. Like if [33:56] we're not a good fit, [33:58] >> I would like to send you in a direction [33:59] that I think could be a good fit, right? [34:01] So, right, doesn't mean I'm going to [34:02] tell you go hire this company or go hire [34:04] that person, but I'm usually going to we [34:05] have, you know, references and agencies [34:07] and Cody's one of them with Mo Effect [34:08] where if it's just a project that's [34:10] either not a good fit or we just can't [34:11] hit their timeline or for whatever [34:13] reason, but looks like a good project. [34:14] We send it to people that we trust and [34:16] respect. I know if if Cody, you know, [34:18] lands that project, he's going to take [34:19] care of them. He's going to do a good [34:20] job. And that's how I put my karma out [34:22] in the world, right? I try to share the [34:24] leads that don't work for us with other [34:25] people, and I know other people share [34:26] leads with us. So, it's also making [34:28] sure, again, we have the conversation. [34:29] What do you look for? And if you're not [34:30] a right fit for us, no harm, no foul. [34:32] Let me send you on to where I think you [34:34] might be a right fit and people that we [34:36] do know and trust. And so again, in the [34:38] WordPress community, in the WordPress [34:40] world, that's how a lot of us work, [34:41] right? Which is not like outside [34:43] WordPress. It's it's open source. We're [34:45] friendly. We're friends. Even though [34:46] we're competitors, Cody and I are [34:48] competitors. [34:48] >> People are like, "Why is he why you [34:50] coming on the podcast with a [34:51] competitor?" Because we're friends and [34:52] we share, you know, we send people back [34:54] and forth based on who's a better fit [34:55] for who. So, um you know, we're all in [34:57] this together and trying to help each [34:58] other. But I think the idea of just [35:00] getting some expert advice because I'll [35:01] give people advice. I'm sure you do too. [35:03] Things to look for, things to stay away [35:04] from. Oh, so and so said that. [35:06] >> That's a huge red flag. Do not go that [35:09] direction, right? Like you can hear some [35:10] of that. [35:11] >> Yes, it's free advice, but like we like [35:12] to help people as much as we can. So [35:14] yeah, talk to someone. And there are a [35:16] lot of, you know, whether it's an [35:17] agency, whether it's a freelancer, [35:18] there's a lot of like really really [35:20] solid Woo Commerce developers out there [35:22] because honestly, Woo Commerce is not [35:23] that far off from WordPress. It's built [35:25] and it's supported in a very similar [35:27] way. So, you know, it's just a more [35:29] complex plugin within uh for WordPress. [35:33] >> Absolutely. [35:34] >> Yeah. So, um let's see. We're going. If [35:36] anyone's got questions in the chat um [35:38] during this is live stream, of course, [35:40] if you're watching it later, uh good [35:42] luck. Put them in the comment. But if [35:44] you have questions, throw them in the [35:45] chat. We'll get to them here in just a [35:46] minute. U one thing I want to show a [35:48] little bit about shared hosting for the [35:50] win, Adam. I mean, it's kind of what [35:51] they did with AI.com, right? So, uh [35:54] how'd that work out? I think [35:56] >> $20 a month. [35:57] >> I don't know if we're going to come back [35:58] to that question about the salary [36:00] framing. Um, [36:02] >> yeah, why don't we why don't we put in [36:04] on that and then I'll go on to the next [36:05] one. [36:06] >> Sure. So, yeah, I just wanted to share [36:07] on that because I think that's perfect [36:09] framing, Brad, as far as somebody who's [36:12] looking at hiring a developer in house. [36:15] So, I I see that all the time. A lot of [36:18] companies will, you know, just think, [36:20] hey, I want somebody I could see over [36:22] here in the bullpen. Gosh, I don't know. [36:24] I mean, that's probably rare a rare case [36:28] these days, but just having somebody [36:30] they can have a direct line to to have [36:32] one throat to choke so that they can [36:35] make sure all of their stuff is done on [36:36] their website. Well, you know, you kind [36:39] of think about that salary requirement. [36:41] You know, maybe somebody who needs, you [36:43] know, what is it 70 85k, can we make a [36:46] living on that amount any anymore? I [36:48] don't know. It keeps keeps going up. But [36:50] anyhow, you think about a company [36:52] spending anywhere sub $100,000 a year. [36:57] You could find a generalist web [36:59] developer to bring onto your team that [37:01] may sort of know WordPress, that might [37:03] sort of know, you know, web development [37:05] and they're learning and they are jack [37:06] of all trades. Or you can hire a firm [37:09] that will be a really great fit that has [37:12] a team of experts and you can use that [37:15] investment to be able to, you know, use [37:18] different skill sets. Whether that's a, [37:21] you know, part of that's front end, part [37:22] of that's backend, part of that's [37:23] database optimization, part of that's [37:26] just having an overall hosting [37:29] environment knowhow. Uh, you can really [37:32] get a good uh investment level hiring an [37:34] agency. Of course, I'm an agency owner, [37:36] so I'm going to say that. But we we tend [37:38] to see that so often. And I also tend to [37:41] see a lot of companies that come to us [37:43] for help that have that generalist web [37:46] developer that have a laundry list of [37:49] issues and they things that they're [37:51] just, you know, that are way outside of [37:53] their depth. So something [37:55] >> I mean, I love that because I mean [37:57] that's that's a point that of course I'm [37:59] sure you use in sales calls just like I [38:01] do, but it's a very fair point, right? [38:03] like a one individual's salary, just [38:05] call it 100 grand, whatever that is, um [38:08] is a great salary for that person and [38:10] they probably be maybe they are an [38:11] amazing fit and they do know stuff, but [38:13] it is also one person, right? So there's [38:14] also one single point of failure, sick [38:16] days, PTO, you know, things like that, [38:18] right? versus again spending a similar [38:21] amount, not having that commitment of a [38:24] employee um and having you know Cody's [38:27] team, my team, a team of experts, data [38:29] specialists, UI, UX, SEO, whatever, uh [38:32] to come in and help you out with a lot [38:33] of redundancy. So, it's I think it's a [38:35] great point. I'm glad you made it [38:36] because I think it's just again store [38:38] owners sit down and see where you're at [38:39] and see what makes sense. Maybe that [38:41] full hire does make sense based on what [38:42] you're doing, but it's always good to [38:44] kind of think about other options and [38:46] and again, maybe it's just try it. Try [38:48] it. You know, hire Cody, a higher mode [38:50] effect for a month or two. Are you [38:52] seeing results? Is it there? If not, all [38:54] right, go somewhere else and you're not [38:56] stuck with a hire that's not producing [38:57] results, right? But I have no doubt Cody [38:58] and his team will produce results. U [39:01] because when either one of us get our [39:02] foot in the door, we're only going to do [39:03] amazing things um and help our clients. [39:05] So, great great advice. I want to um I [39:09] want to round it out here a little bit [39:10] with uh you know we talked about [39:12] modernization we talked about you know [39:15] staying away from shiny things smart [39:16] growth um I want to show off a little [39:19] bit about what we've been doing with [39:20] theme switcher around Woo Commerce and [39:22] specifically around how this can [39:23] actually help versus hey I'm on an old [39:24] store I'm on an old site we want to [39:26] modernize we we we love Woo Commerce but [39:29] we want to redesign we want to rebuild [39:30] we want to redo the whole thing right [39:32] well that's that big oh gosh this is [39:34] going to be a big big project big [39:36] commitment big financial commitment [39:37] everyone a lot of time. It's just, you [39:39] know, it's risky to the business. What [39:40] happens if something goes wrong? There [39:41] is still a world where that makes sense, [39:43] don't get me wrong. And there's a world [39:44] where that should make sense for a lot [39:45] of companies, but it's not the only way [39:48] we can accomplish this now. So, um, I'm [39:51] going to show this off and I'm going to [39:52] blow Cody's mind. No, he's seen this. [39:54] Um, [39:54] >> yeah, I'm excited, man, because we, uh, [39:57] we need something like this on the [39:58] Effect site. [40:01] >> Well, we'll get it on there. All right. [40:02] So, live local demo, baby. These are [40:05] always fun. Please work. Now it'll work. [40:08] Um, so really simple basic example. This [40:10] is a default WordPress install. Uh, 6.9 [40:14] maybe 0.1. I don't know if I installed [40:16] the point release yet, but either way, [40:17] it's 6.9. It's running 2025, which is [40:20] currently the, you know, the default [40:22] theme. You can see we click around here. [40:24] Everything is 2025. I even have Woo [40:26] Commerce running. This is again a [40:27] default Woo Commerce. Little side tip, [40:29] too. If you install Woo Commerce, the [40:31] plugin, it comes with a sample data file [40:33] in the plugin that you can import a [40:35] bunch of fake data like I did here. So, [40:37] if you want to test it out, it's right [40:39] in the plugin. Just grab that file and [40:40] import it uh in WordPress and away you [40:42] go. So, really easy way to kind of test [40:44] some things. But, this is a store, fully [40:46] functional store. I don't have, you [40:47] know, checkout uh payment integration [40:49] here. This is just local, but everything [40:51] else works. Add to cart, whatever. So, [40:54] this is where the power of what we built [40:56] comes in. So, we built a plugin called [40:57] theme switch and it allows you to switch [40:59] the theme on a pa one page at a time, [41:02] one section at a time, you know, based [41:04] on category, based on custom post type, [41:06] based on whatever you want. So, but the [41:08] real power here for Woo Commerce is we [41:10] have an integration. So, as we know, Woo [41:12] Commerce, there's a products custom post [41:14] type. There's a number of pages Woo [41:15] Commerce makes. You could manually [41:17] switch all of those with theme switcher, [41:19] but we know what Woo Powers Commerce. [41:21] So, we've actually baked that in um to [41:23] theme switcher. So, it will recognize [41:25] any theme. You can't see me clicking the [41:26] drop down here, but if I click it, any [41:28] theme in my theme directory is in this [41:29] dropdown. I'm going to go with [41:30] storefront, which is the Automatics [41:32] official Woo Commerce um theme. I'll [41:34] just save that. And then when I switch [41:36] it back to my live website, guess what? [41:39] It's still 2025 because I didn't change [41:41] the live website. I changed the shop. [41:44] But when I go to the store, boom, now [41:46] we're running storefront. So everything [41:48] in Woo Commerce is running storefront. [41:50] Product details, add to cart, the cart, [41:54] everything. my account, it's all running [41:58] um storefront. But if I go anywhere else [42:01] on my website that is not Woo Commerce [42:03] about page, I'm right back to 2025. [42:06] Homepage, I'm right back to 2025. So, uh [42:09] pretty extreme example of just switching [42:10] the whole thing over. But you could also [42:12] just switch your shop main page. You [42:14] could switch just your product detail [42:16] page. You could build out using a new [42:18] theme, a new product detail page and [42:21] swap it. Now imagine like the homepage. [42:23] You could just make homepage two that [42:25] runs on a block theme. Build out the [42:27] whole homepage. And you know what you [42:28] have to do to launch that? Just go to [42:30] your reading settings and change [42:32] homepage to homepage two and hit save. [42:34] And you've just relaunched your homepage [42:35] on a block theme. So this is a real game [42:38] changer in terms of modernization, [42:40] iterization, but doing it iteratively, [42:42] right? Chipping away at it again. And [42:44] this is a tool for for us. This is a [42:46] tool for Cody. This is a tool for [42:47] agencies, impleers, and store owners. So [42:50] even if you're not technical, you could [42:51] install this and start, you know, using [42:53] storefront or using a blockbased theme [42:55] on maybe a theme that is using old [42:56] classic editor um and really change the [42:59] game in a matter of minutes um versus [43:02] months of rebuilding your whole theme. [43:03] So [43:04] >> I have a real question for you for so we [43:07] talked about in the instance of [43:09] WooCommerce sites where they use these [43:10] builder themes or you know these no code [43:13] themes. So, what about somebody who has [43:16] a website that comes on to, you know, [43:19] that that wants to sort of do this low [43:21] buildout? Like, if we're working with a [43:22] client, we're like, "Hey, you really [43:24] need to get on to using Gutenberg [43:27] because it's going to help your website [43:29] speed." So, will this be compatible with [43:31] people who use like say BeaverBuilder or [43:35] um [43:35] >> It is compatible with BeaverBuilder. So, [43:37] it's compatible with BeaverBuilder, [43:38] Divvy. Um there's a couple other page [43:41] builders. We have a compatibility [43:42] section on themeswitcher.com. Um, and [43:45] you can you can you can check it there [43:46] to see if it's listed. If it's not [43:48] listed and it's popular, it's probably [43:49] in the works, but I know for sure [43:50] BeaverBuilder and Divvy are both fully [43:52] supported and tested. Um, because again, [43:54] your point, if their whole shop is [43:55] running BeaverBuilder, you could [43:57] selectively start replacing out those [43:58] templates with storefront or a [44:00] blockbased theme or anything outside of [44:01] BeaverBuilder. So, um, we know that's a [44:04] big market for this because exactly what [44:05] you said, performance, right? Or you [44:08] could go the other way. You could start [44:09] using BeaverBuilder on certain pages if [44:10] you really wanted to. So, it's super [44:12] flexible. Um, really, if you if the [44:14] theme follows WordPress standards, it [44:16] works, right? Page builders, you had to [44:17] put a little little bit of extra testing [44:19] in there and extra considerations [44:20] because they're doing a lot more. But [44:22] generally speaking, if a theme is a [44:24] block theme, a new theme, whatever, and [44:26] it follows the WordPress standards, it [44:27] works with theme switcher. Um, so of [44:29] course, always test. Um, but we've had a [44:31] lot of success. We're using this to we [44:34] are landing more projects with this [44:35] process. we are bringing it's giving us [44:37] another option to bring to the table, [44:38] right? When someone says, "Hey, we want [44:39] to redo our Woo Commerce." Okay, we have [44:41] a couple options here. We could go [44:42] traditional route and and for some [44:44] projects that's perfect and that's [44:46] exactly what they want. Or we could go [44:49] the the new the new route with Theme [44:51] Switcher Pro and we could have results [44:52] in a matter of a week, two weeks. You [44:55] could start seeing results, you know. [44:56] Um, so pretty cool. I want to throw it [44:58] out because I do think with the the the [45:00] larger topic of modernization, don't [45:02] just flip it all upside down. There's a [45:04] lot of options out there now, right? So, [45:06] um whether it's theme switcher pro, [45:08] whether you know just whether it's just [45:09] modifi, you know, modified or working [45:11] with a pro like Cody that knows, hey, [45:13] you shouldn't have 15 plugins running on [45:15] your checkout page. You know, you [45:16] shouldn't have all these things that are [45:18] flashing when I'm trying to click the [45:19] pay button. The only thing that should [45:21] be in my mind is clicking that pay [45:22] button, right? So, um bring in the [45:24] experts. Just let him audit your site. [45:26] He's going to come back with [45:26] recommendations that are going to make [45:28] you money. And that's what I love about [45:29] e-commerce because it's so like websites [45:32] are all based on traffic and sometimes [45:33] ads and things like that, but e-commerce [45:35] it's very black and white if it's [45:36] working. Are you making sales or not, [45:38] right? So for me, it's just I'm a data [45:40] guy. It's zeros and ones. It's either [45:41] working or it's not. [45:43] >> Um, so it's always you can analyze it [45:44] and with a few tweaks, [45:46] >> you can start making more money and [45:47] easily justify hiring an agency like [45:49] ours. So, um, yeah. Any final thoughts? [45:53] I have one final segment I want to do, [45:54] but Cody, I'll leave it to you for final [45:56] thoughts before we get into that. [45:59] >> Yeah, I mean, just, you know, I think [46:00] it's again just, you know, getting back [46:03] to just knowing your your basics here [46:06] and figuring out, you know, I think [46:08] there's a lot of SMBs running on Woo [46:10] Commerce. So, you just you really want [46:12] to educate yourself. And I and I I can't [46:14] stress enough having an agency that [46:17] understands Woo Commerce in your back [46:19] pocket, even just to get some education. [46:21] I think it's a good investment even if [46:23] there's, you know, just a free [46:25] consultation or just making a small [46:27] investment with them, you know. Um, this [46:29] is where we're going to flash the the [46:31] donation screen up on on the YouTube. [46:34] So, you know, make a small donation. [46:37] >> Subscribe. [46:39] >> Yeah, that's I just say that's key. [46:41] >> Yeah, it's good advice for sure. Um, [46:43] talk to people and honestly, I think a [46:44] lot of us like helping because it is the [46:46] open source mentality. It's helping. [46:48] It's we all help each other. We all [46:49] grow, right? And so really just in the [46:51] open source world that's a lot that's [46:53] our mindset because that's how we've [46:54] been building for years and in our case [46:56] decades, right? So um so yeah, great [46:59] great advice. I want to end on a final [47:01] little fun segment here. Cody has no [47:03] idea what I'm about to do. Um which is [47:05] even more fun. So we're going to call [47:07] this segment the cart recovery rapidfire [47:10] segment. So this is real simple. I'm [47:12] going to throw a quick question over to [47:14] Cody. Cody, you got five seconds to give [47:16] me your answer and then we're going [47:18] right to the next one. I'm just gonna [47:19] rapid fire you some big old e-commerce [47:21] questions and I want to see what you [47:22] come up with. [47:23] >> This could be fun. [47:23] >> Maybe they're not big old questions, but [47:24] I it'll be fun. Okay. [47:26] >> How do you feel about this? I don't have [47:28] sound effects. That's the only thing I'm [47:29] a little sad about. I need like ticking [47:30] and a ding or a buzzer, but [47:32] >> yeah, you need a soundboard. [47:34] >> Maybe for the next one we'll bring back [47:35] the drag cast or something. But all [47:37] right. All right. Here we go. The cart [47:39] recovery rapid fire segment starts now. [47:42] All right. Shopify verse Woo Commerce. [47:44] Who wins for a brand doing 10 million [47:46] plus? [47:48] I'd say Woo Commerce. [47:50] >> Woo Commerce. All right. Free shipping [47:52] banner. Mandatory or lame? [47:55] >> Pretty lame. [47:56] >> Pretty lame. All right. Page builders, [47:58] Elementor, BeaverBuilder, or pure [48:00] Gutenberg blocks? [48:01] >> Gutenberg blocks. [48:03] >> I like it. All right. Spin to win [48:04] discount wheel. Fun gamification or [48:06] immediately close tab. [48:09] >> Uh, depends on your audience. [48:12] >> Oh, I like it. Depends. Depends what [48:14] you're giving away, maybe. All right. A [48:15] client has $500 left in the monthly [48:17] budget. Are they buying a plugin or one [48:20] hour of your developer time? [48:22] >> One hour of the developer time. [48:23] >> That's an agency owner. I knew it. [48:25] >> Y plugin. I do have company. But [48:28] >> besides Woo Commerce, what is one must [48:30] have plugin that every single store [48:31] needs? [48:33] >> Oh gosh. Now this a hard one, dude. [48:36] Check out WC. [48:37] >> Check out WC. That's an easy answer. All [48:39] right. AI gener. We're almost there. [48:41] We're almost there. AI generated product [48:42] descriptions. Timesaver or Soulcrusher? [48:46] >> Um, both. [48:48] >> Both. [48:49] >> I don't disagree. You need some [48:50] description in there, right? All right. [48:52] What's scarier? Last one. The nightmare [48:53] scenario. What's scarier? 500 server air [48:56] during Black Friday sale or a client [48:58] with just one quick idea for the [48:59] checkout page. [49:01] >> Definitely the 500 because we could I [49:03] think we we could tell our clients to [49:05] settle down as far as the last minute uh [49:08] customizations. happen on a Black Friday [49:10] sale that is not people buying is [49:12] probably the worst case scenario, right? [49:14] So, [49:15] >> yep. [49:15] >> All right. Pretty good. That was [49:16] painless, right? A little rapid fire. [49:18] That was kind of fun. I do wish I had [49:19] sound effects, but [49:20] >> I checked my heart rate on my Apple [49:21] Watch. Let's see. [49:23] >> Did it get a different spike? [49:26] You're in a loud, nervous environment. [49:28] >> Um, no, this was a lot of fun, Cody. I [49:30] really appreciate appreciate you coming [49:32] on. Um, you know, we had a a really [49:34] great conversation around commerce and, [49:36] you know, everything that, you know, [49:38] we're doing around modernization. As I [49:39] pull up my slide here and kind of [49:41] ramble, but um, real quick, I want to [49:42] give you an opportunity just tell people [49:44] how they can find you online. How do [49:45] they reach out and find Cody and work [49:47] with Mode Effect? [49:48] >> Yeah, modifact.com. Uh, you can find us [49:51] there. And then, um, if you want to [49:53] connect with me, LinkedIn's probably the [49:54] best place. Just search up my name link [49:56] on LinkedIn, Cody Landerfeld. And then [49:59] um if you dare uh on X, you could find [50:03] me at Cody L, but there's not not a [50:05] whole lot of business advice I'm giving [50:07] out on there. More so on LinkedIn. So [50:08] find me on there and uh look forward to [50:10] connecting with anybody. [50:12] >> Awesome. Yeah, definitely track Cody [50:13] down on LinkedIn at Brad [50:15] Williamsdevstudios.com. [50:17] Williamsba pretty much everywhere. If [50:19] it's not, just add a one or two ones [50:22] until you find me. Um but yeah, [50:24] Williamsba, you'll find me. So [50:25] definitely reach out. We're very [50:26] approachable. But we love just sharing [50:28] advice and uh Cody, really appreciate [50:30] you coming on, man. Um it's been a lot [50:31] of fun. Share a lot of great advice. [50:34] >> If anyone's out in the Phoenix area or [50:36] just look up modif.com, modif.com [50:39] and reach out to Cody and his team [50:40] there. They're killing it. And like you [50:41] said, they don't just do Woo Commerce. [50:43] They're an e-commerce agency. So if [50:44] you're selling stuff online, go talk to [50:46] Cody and his team. They'll take care of [50:47] you. [50:48] >> Absolutely. And go Debbacks. [50:51] >> Phillies. It's baseball season. Even [50:53] though it's like negative10 out right [50:54] now, but I am so ready for warm weather [50:56] in baseball. So [50:57] >> yeah. So that's that's one way we're [50:59] like not on the same page there. Brad, [51:00] you said we're friendly and then until [51:02] it comes down to our baseball team. [51:03] >> Baseball baseball I'm more passionate [51:05] about because my Raiders just haven't [51:06] even played football in 20 years. So uh [51:09] I'll be I'll be uh once the Raiders [51:11] actually get good, you won't want to be [51:12] around me, but I hope it's coming. But [51:15] we'll end it there. So thank you for [51:16] tuning in. And again, we got the replay [51:18] up on YouTube. So until next time, I [51:20] think we have another fun one next [51:21] month. So watch out. We will announce it [51:23] as soon as we have it scheduled. So, uh, [51:26] thanks for joining and we'll see you [51:27] soon. Thanks everybody.  ## 📺 Video ![](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIs5reI26n0) --- # 📝 Full Notes (Deep-Read Analysis) # 🏷️ Title: The Modern WooCommerce Playbook: Safe Iteration & Scaling ## 🧰 Action Inbox - [H1] Audit current plugins for performance impact — checkout experience optimization #performance - [H2] Evaluate hosting provider for WooCommerce-specific features — database query optimization #infrastructure - [H3] Consider Theme Switcher Pro for iterative modernization — avoid full rebuild risks #modernization ## 🧭 Table of Contents - [📝 Summary](#-summary) - [📖 Main Content](#-main-content) - [🗒️ Notes](#️-notes) - [📚 References](#-references) - [🗣️ Paraphrase](#️-paraphrase) - [📰 Newsletter](#-newsletter) - [✅ Action Items](#-action-items) - [🧪 Hypotheses](#-hypotheses) - [📊 Methodology](#-methodology) - [❓ Questions](#-questions) - [🔮 Future Research](#-future-research) - [💡 Implications](#-implications) - [🧠 Learning Styles Assessment](#-learning-styles-assessment) - [📊 Accessibility Assessment](#-accessibility-assessment) - [🌍 DEIB Assessment](#-deib-assessment) - [✅ Logical Validity](#-logical-validity) - [🛡️ DARVO Analysis](#-darvo-analysis) - [🎯 Conclusion](#-conclusion) ### 🔗 References - [CheckoutWC](https://checkoutwc.com) - [Theme Switcher Pro](https://themeswitcher.com) ## 📝 Summary - Brad Williams and Cody Landefeld discuss modernizing WooCommerce stores safely without full platform rebuilds - Key focus on performance optimization, plugin management, and iterative improvements over panic-driven migrations - Addresses common pain points: checkout UX, hosting requirements, and when to seek professional help - Introduces Theme Switcher Pro as solution for gradual modernization - Bottom line: WooCommerce remains powerful for complex stores with proper optimization strategies ## 📖 Main Content WooCommerce powers approximately 35% of all e-commerce websites and runs on 20% of all WordPress sites, making it a dominant platform in the open-source e-commerce space. The speakers emphasize that successful WooCommerce optimization requires understanding the platform's strengths (complex product configurations, subscriptions, customization) versus simpler solutions like Shopify for basic product catalogs. The core challenge many store owners face is "modernization panic" - the urge to completely rebuild or switch platforms when performance issues arise. However, most problems stem from plugin bloat, inappropriate hosting, or suboptimal configurations rather than fundamental platform limitations. The speakers advocate for iterative improvements over complete overhauls. Performance emerges as the critical factor, especially during checkout processes where dynamic content cannot be cached. This requires specialized hosting that understands WooCommerce's unique requirements beyond standard WordPress caching strategies. ## 🗒️ Notes #### ⏱️ [00:00](https://youtu.be/YIs5reI26n0?t=0) — [H1] Introduction and speaker credentials - Key idea: Both speakers have 15-20 years experience with WooCommerce since platform inception - Evidence: "We've been building enterprise large WordPress focused websites for a long time, including WooCommerce" #### ⏱️ [03:45](https://youtu.be/YIs5reI26n0?t=225) — [H2] WordPress and WooCommerce market dominance - Key idea: WordPress powers 43% of internet, WooCommerce runs on 20% of WordPress sites - Evidence: "9% of all websites...approximately about one in five WordPress sites has WooCommerce running on it" #### ⏱️ [06:12](https://youtu.be/YIs5reI26n0?t=372) — [H2] Platform agnostic philosophy - Key idea: No perfect e-commerce platform exists - success depends on implementation quality - Evidence: "There are no perfect platforms. It really comes down to the size of your business" #### ⏱️ [08:30](https://youtu.be/YIs5reI26n0?t=510) — [H3] Plugin bloat as primary performance issue - Key idea: DIY store builders accumulate performance-killing plugins without understanding impact - Evidence: "So many plugins...becomes a smorgasbord of bloat that causes problems with site speed" #### ⏱️ [12:15](https://youtu.be/YIs5reI26n0?t=735) — [H2] Checkout experience as conversion bottleneck - Key idea: Cart and checkout processes are where performance issues become revenue-impacting - Evidence: "Where the game changes is when there's something in the cart and you try to check out" #### ⏱️ [15:45](https://youtu.be/YIs5reI26n0?t=945) — [H2] WooCommerce sweet spot identification - Key idea: Complex products, variations, and subscriptions favor WooCommerce over Shopify - Evidence: "Complex side of WooCommerce really works well for products with a ton of different variations" #### ⏱️ [18:30](https://youtu.be/YIs5reI26n0?t=1110) — [H3] Shopify limitations at scale - Key idea: Larger businesses get only 70-80% functionality from Shopify, costs scale rapidly - Evidence: "Shopify Plus, I think...close to three grand per month" #### ⏱️ [22:00](https://youtu.be/YIs5reI26n0?t=1320) — [H2] Hosting as critical infrastructure decision - Key idea: E-commerce requires specialized hosting that understands uncacheable checkout processes - Evidence: "E-commerce has special set of requirements...some of it can't be cached" #### ⏱️ [25:10](https://youtu.be/YIs5reI26n0?t=1510) — [H3] CheckoutWC plugin recommendation - Key idea: Default WooCommerce checkout UX needs improvement for conversion optimization - Evidence: "Out of the box WooCommerce checkout experience...is just not great" #### ⏱️ [28:45](https://youtu.be/YIs5reI26n0?t=1725) — [H2] HPOS (High Performance Order System) benefits - Key idea: WooCommerce's new order system significantly improves database performance - Evidence: "Really good success...especially with stores doing subscription...automated orders" #### ⏱️ [32:30](https://youtu.be/YIs5reI26n0?t=1950) — [H2] When to seek professional help - Key idea: Consult experts early to avoid costly rebuilds, even during DIY phase - Evidence: "Book a consultation...understand the roadmap you're going down" #### ⏱️ [36:15](https://youtu.be/YIs5reI26n0?t=2175) — [H2] Agency vs in-house developer economics - Key idea: $100K salary gets one generalist vs team of specialists from agency - Evidence: "You can hire a firm...has a team of experts...different skill sets" #### ⏱️ [40:00](https://youtu.be/YIs5reI26n0?t=2400) — [H1] Theme Switcher Pro demonstration - Key idea: Iterative modernization through selective theme switching by page/section - Evidence: "Switch the theme on a page at a time...based on category, custom post type" #### ⏱️ [43:30](https://youtu.be/YIs5reI26n0?t=2610) — [H3] Page builder compatibility - Key idea: Theme Switcher works with BeaverBuilder, Divvy, and other popular page builders - Evidence: "Compatible with BeaverBuilder, Divvy...we have a compatibility section" ## 📚 References - [CheckoutWC Plugin](https://checkoutwc.com) - [Theme Switcher Pro](https://themeswitcher.com) - [WebDev Studios](https://webdevstudios.com) - [ModEffect Agency](https://modeffect.com) ## 🗣️ Paraphrase - WooCommerce remains the dominant open-source e-commerce platform but requires strategic optimization rather than panic-driven platform migrations - Performance issues typically stem from plugin bloat and inappropriate hosting rather than fundamental platform limitations - The platform excels for complex product catalogs, subscriptions, and customization needs that exceed Shopify's capabilities at enterprise scale ## 📰 Newsletter **WooCommerce Optimization Without the Rebuild Headache** Thinking your WooCommerce store needs a complete overhaul? Think again. Industry veterans Brad Williams and Cody Landefeld share battle-tested strategies for modernizing your store iteratively, focusing on performance wins over platform panic. **Key Takeaway**: Most "platform problems" are actually plugin bloat and hosting issues. Start with checkout optimization using CheckoutWC, audit your plugin stack, and ensure your host understands e-commerce caching requirements. **Smart Move**: Consider Theme Switcher Pro for gradual modernization - swap themes page by page instead of risking full rebuilds. Resources: [CheckoutWC](https://checkoutwc.com), [Theme Switcher Pro](https://themeswitcher.com), [Learn WordPress](https://learn.wordpress.org/) ## ✅ Action Items #### WordPress - Core: Validate HPOS adoption impact on large WooCommerce installations - Performance: Document e-commerce-specific caching strategies and limitations - Documentation: Create hosting requirements guide for WooCommerce optimization - Plugins: Audit popular WooCommerce extensions for performance impact patterns #### Community - Maintainers: Develop WooCommerce performance testing templates for agencies - Contributors: Create plugin audit checklists for common performance bottlenecks - Ecosystem: Foster hosting provider education on e-commerce requirements ## 🧪 Hypotheses - Theme Switcher Pro adoption will reduce WooCommerce rebuild projects by 40% - Proper hosting migration alone improves checkout conversion rates by 15-25% - HPOS implementation provides 2x performance improvement for subscription-heavy stores - CheckoutWC integration reduces checkout abandonment by 10-20% over default WooCommerce ### 📊 Methodology - A/B testing checkout experiences with and without CheckoutWC optimization - Performance benchmarking pre/post HPOS implementation across store sizes - Hosting provider comparison study for WooCommerce-specific optimizations ### ❓ Questions - What specific metrics should store owners track to identify modernization needs? - How can WooCommerce core improve default checkout UX to match Shopify standards? - What hosting configurations provide optimal performance for high-volume subscription stores? ### 🔮 Future Research - WooCommerce block theme adoption patterns and performance impacts - Headless commerce viability for mid-market WooCommerce stores - AI-driven plugin compatibility and performance prediction ### 💡 Implications - Practice: Iterative modernization reduces project risk and maintains revenue continuity - Policy: Hosting providers need WooCommerce-specific optimization standards - Security: Plugin auditing becomes critical for performance and vulnerability management - Education: Store owners need framework for evaluating true vs perceived platform limitations ### 🧠 Learning Styles Assessment Reading level estimate: Flesch-Kincaid Grade Level 10 #### 👀 Visual learners - Present: Live demo of Theme Switcher Pro, performance comparison screenshots - Improve: Plugin audit flowcharts, hosting decision trees, before/after performance graphs #### 🔊 Aural learners - Present: Conversational webinar format with expert dialogue - Improve: Audio-only version with timestamp summaries #### 🗣️ Verbal learners - Present: Clear definitions of technical terms, platform comparisons, analogies - Improve: Glossary of WooCommerce optimization terms #### 🧩 Kinesthetic learners - Present: Step-by-step plugin audit process, hands-on demo - Improve: Interactive performance testing checklist, sandbox environment #### 🧠 Logical learners - Present: Market share statistics, cost-benefit analysis for agency vs in-house - Improve: Decision matrix for platform selection, ROI calculations #### 🧑‍🤝‍🧑 Social learners - Present: Expert discussion format, community resource sharing - Improve: Peer review groups for store optimization #### 🧘‍♀️ Solitary learners - Present: Detailed technical explanations, self-assessment frameworks - Improve: Individual audit worksheets, reflection prompts #### 🌿 Naturalistic learners - Present: Organic problem-solving approach, ecosystem thinking - Improve: Platform lifecycle analogies, sustainable growth frameworks ### 📊 Accessibility Assessment #### Screen reader semantics - Present: Clear heading structure, descriptive video content - Improve: Detailed alt text for demo screenshots, transcript formatting #### Keyboard navigation - Present: Standard video controls accessible - Improve: Chapter navigation, skip links for demo sections #### Contrast and readability - Present: High contrast presentation slides - Improve: Captions with sufficient color contrast #### Media and captions - Present: Full video transcript provided - Improve: Time-synced captions, audio descriptions for visual demos ### 🌍 DEIB Assessment #### Cultural breadth - Present: Discussion of various business sizes and models - Improve: Global hosting considerations, international e-commerce examples #### Inclusive language - Present: Gender-neutral business examples, accessible technical explanations - Improve: Avoid agency/client power dynamic language #### Neurodiversity support - Present: Clear section breaks, consistent presentation structure - Improve: Written summary of key points, reduced cognitive load #### Representation - Present: Two different agency perspectives, varied business scenarios - Improve: Diverse case studies, inclusive imagery ### ✅ Logical Validity #### Strong reasoning - Deductive strength: Market statistics lead to platform viability conclusions - Inductive strength: Multiple client examples support optimization patterns - Causal reasoning: Plugin bloat → performance issues → revenue impact - Analogical strength: Batman utility belt analogy for tool selection #### Fallacies - Appeal to authority: Relies heavily on speakers' experience without external validation - False dilemma: Oversimplifies Shopify vs WooCommerce decision #### Tone of voice - Overall tone: Collaborative and educational with practical expertise ### 🛡️ DARVO Analysis - No DARVO patterns detected - content focuses on technical solutions rather than defensive positioning ## 🎯 Conclusion WooCommerce optimization doesn't require platform abandonment or complete rebuilds. The key is understanding that most performance and user experience issues stem from implementation choices rather than platform limitations. By focusing on iterative improvements - plugin audits, proper hosting, checkout optimization, and selective theme switching - store owners can modernize safely while maintaining revenue continuity. The combination of technical expertise and gradual implementation provides a sustainable path forward for growing e-commerce businesses. ## 🧱 Refactor Appendix ### 📚 Literature Split Pad Purpose: Stage CEE units that become Literature notes. Split level: H3 ### [H1] Plugin bloat degrades WooCommerce performance systematically > [!quote] [The Modern WooCommerce Playbook](https://youtu.be/YIs5reI26n0) by WebDev Studios and ModEffect via YouTube. Published 2024. Accessed 2024-12-24. > "So many plugins...becomes a smorgasbord of bloat that causes problems with site speed" DIY store builders accumulate plugins without understanding cumulative performance impact on checkout processes. [view highlight](https://youtu.be/YIs5reI26n0?t=510#H3) #xref #articleseed ID:rw_plugin_bloat ### [H2] E-commerce hosting requires uncacheable process optimization > [!quote] [The Modern WooCommerce Playbook](https://youtu.be/YIs5reI26n0) > "E-commerce has special set of requirements...some of it can't be cached" Cart and checkout interactions demand database queries that cannot utilize traditional WordPress caching strategies. [view highlight](https://youtu.be/YIs5reI26n0?t=1320#H2) #xref ID:rw_ecommerce_hosting --- ### 🔖 Atomic Split Pad (Zettel Candidates --- # 📄 Full Transcript *Auto-generated from YouTube captions · timestamps roughly every 30 seconds · [watch on YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIs5reI26n0)* **[00:01]** Let me tell you because we got my man, one of my buddies, Cody L on this and we're talking the modern Woo Commerce playbook, safe iteration scaling. We're going to dig into Woo Commerce. We're going to dig out a lot of options. Cody's Cody and I have been working on Woo Commerce really since the start of Woo Commerce. So, we've got a lot of uh a lot of stuff to dig into today. So, let's get to it. First, who are we? Well, I'm with WebDev Studios. Cody's with his company agency mode Effect. Uh we're in our 18th year at WebDev Studios. I'm a co-founder and partner. So, we've been building enterprise large **[00:32]** uh WordPress focused websites for a long time, including Woo Commerce. A lot of work with Woo Commerce over the years. Um, it's really uh excited to kind of dig in today and share some of our experiences. Um, uh, yeah, so it's going to be fun. And of course, Cody, I'll let you introduce yourself. >> Absolutely. Thanks for having me on, Brad. So, Cody Landerfeld, co-founder at ModC. And uh gosh, I think collectively we've been around maybe 20 years or so. Um I myself started my agency back 15 years. I'm going to give you way more **[01:03]** information than you asked for, but anyhow, we are uh primarily focused on helping online stores with their development needs and also digital marketing. So we kind of have the full surround of services for online stores and people doing e-commerce. And a big part of that is on WooCommerce. So, we're excited to come together and uh help you all and give some uh tidbits of advice on the platform. >> Absolutely. So, what are we talking **[01:34]** about today? Woo! Woo! Commerce.com. If you're not familiar with it, I'm guessing if you're watching this, you probably are, but we want to talk a little bit about what we're going to cover today and then we'll dive into some some data around Woo Commerce and kind of get after it. So, first we'll give a real quick overview of Woo Commerce. Again, we're assuming you kind of have an understanding of what it is. We'll talk a little bit about the numbers and really how big of a platform it is. Uh modernization without panic. This is going to be a fun one, right? A lot of people are seeing new things out there, new shiny objects around performance and scaling and you know, **[02:04]** what should they be looking at? What should we do if we need to modernize? This is all, you know, flip it upside down and start over or are there better ways to do it? That's what we're going to get into today. Smarter growth for store owners and agencies. Um and also kind of the business side of it for more for store store owners, right? Is this do you have an in-house team? Do you work with an agency like Cody or myself? Do you you know do you have some other setup? Like let's talk about some ways that work um and what we've seen over our experience too. And of course at the end I want to touch on our newest product Switcher Pro and really kind of dig into some iterative modernization **[02:35]** using our product. So I'll do a quick uh a really quick live demo at the end. If you're not able to stay for the full webinar that's fine. We have the whole thing is published on YouTube. You can watch it right after the event. Um so don't feel like if you missed part it's gone. you can come back and catch it later. So, um, but let's jump in because we got a lot to cover. So, WordPress is is a powerhouse. It still is. A lot of people think WordPress is is is shrinking and while it's plateaued a lot the last couple years, it's really holding steady right around 43% of the entire internet. So, people say, "Oh, it's down.1%." **[03:07]** This is of the entire internet. This is a staggering number of websites still running WordPress today. uh you know almost 500 million uh known sites globally uh powered by WordPress uh forget all the things behind you know pay walls and or you know loginins and things that can't even be counted. So now of that if we break down Woo Commerce. So Woo Commerce is a plugin for WordPress. It's a plugin that incorporates a lot of advanced functionality for e-commerce. It turns your WordPress website uh adds a whole e-commerce store to your website, right? So it is a plugin within WordPress. You **[03:38]** have to have WordPress to run Woo Commerce. Um now if you just separate that out and look at Woo Commerce in terms of how many websites are running Woo Commerce, 9% of all websites. So approximately about 20 it's a it's a staggering number about one in five websites WordPress sites has Woo Commerce running on it. Um and if you look at just e-commerce as a whole Woo Commerce is about 35% of that. So Woo Commerce is a large chunk. It's it's one of the it's the top e-commerce uh certainly a top open source e-commerce **[04:08]** platform and it powers a huge chunk of the internet for good reason because it's a great platform. It's open source. It's endlessly extensible. You can do anything you want with it, right? which can be a blessing and a curse, which I'm sure we'll talk about a little bit more. So, some big numbers, but I think it helps sets the stage that Woo Commerce is a dominant player in the e-commerce space and a dominant player in the open-source e-commerce space. So, a lot of people are using it, a lot of opportunities for not only if you're a builder, implement agency to work with it for your clients or if you are a owner of a a store website, a good **[04:40]** opportunity for look at if you're looking to roll out a store or change your platform. So, we're not getting to thank yous just yet, but I'm going to stop sharing. I don't have a ton of slides. I'd rather you just look at our faces while we talk and maybe do some screen sharing. Um, but let's dive into it. So, one of the first things we want to kind of get into, Cody, is and this is something I think if you've worked with really if you built websites in any capacity for a period of time, this comes up. But specifically, I want to talk about, you know, your e-commerce WooCommerce platform, which is really modernization, right? So it's very you know web and the tech and and and what **[05:12]** people do and designs and everything it just the only constant is change right it's always evolving so you could have an amazingly beautiful website today in a year or two now it could look very dated right so u and many times there's a kind of a knee-jerk reaction to that right it's like hey I got to modernize we got to do something different we need to jump over to this platform or that platform or do you know and it's it's almost just like let's take a breath here so you know Cody I want to kind of pass this over to you but when when one of your clients or even maybe just somebody walks in the door and says, "Look, our our, you know, we're on Woo **[05:43]** Commerce. It's just feeling stale. Maybe we need to go to Shopify. Everyone's, you know, we're hearing that buzz. Is that is it time to jump ship to modernize?" What's your reaction to that? How do you respond to that? >> Yeah, I hear that almost every single day with people that are, you know, maybe either clients that work with us or people that just come through our front door and they're asking for advice on what to do with their platform. And my answer being sort of a, you know, agnostic e-commerce shop at least on the front door is that there are no perfect **[06:15]** platforms. Um, it really comes down to the size of your business and your store. I think that that it is really tricky when your site's getting built up when you're first starting out and you get to a certain threshold of sales. that is where it's difficult to sort of get to a certain point and determine what makes sense as far as a platform. So, I think for your simpler stores, you **[06:45]** you you definitely can look at Shopify as getting online. And I think it's if you have a techsavvy background or if you've tinkered a little bit, you could still get yourself online fairly quick with Woo Commerce because, you know, you can even start that journey on WordPress.com. But I think where you really start to determine where there's good par is once you have sort of your, you know, your site to a certain level, um, where you have sales, where you actually have a business, then it kind of makes sense to **[07:17]** weigh out what features you use inside of the platform because it, and we'll probably get to this later on, but basically there there are ways to determine what true parody is as far as platforms. So my answer is just wherever you are, it takes work to make that platform be the best match for your online business. >> Yeah, I mean that's a great point. Like it's it's it kind of rings a bell in my head of something I'm talking about with my my company of the the project management tool we use and it's like we've used different ones over the years **[07:48]** and none of them are perfect, right? And it's basically like our answer now is well this is the least worst out of all the ones we've used >> which doesn't sound great but it's like it's to your point of they're as good they're only one is only as good as you're going to make them and work with them right but it is there is never a perfect platform ever right ever like and I mean you could have endless budgets endless time I mean look at Amazon right but they're never done right they're always still building improving and modernizing so it's never done but it's also kind of thinking that longer term so so like what is the psychological kind of **[08:20]** you know, I guess the the the thought or idea when someone's like, I need to modernize and and and many times it is that knee-jerk, maybe it's not this isn't working for me. Maybe I should try something else. But when you start to kind of dig in, you know, as I like to say, peel back the onion and really get to what is the challenge, >> as you and I have talked before, that's when you realize it isn't really the platform specific. It's how they're maybe using the platform or maybe things they're not using that they could be using or integrations they're not doing. Can you speak a little bit about that where it's like kind of, you know, kind **[08:51]** of getting to the point the the the root of what their issues are versus just saying, "Yeah, let's flip it all upside down and and change, >> right?" Yeah. I mean, so often I see folks that are, you know, in that DIY situation, right? So, you got people that build their website on their own or they hire a freelancer or get a small team to help them get online. And that's a good way to start. You know, you want to get yourself set up and be able to start making transactions and see what kind of traffic you can bring to your **[09:22]** website. And then after that, once you've hit a certain threshold of sales, then then it really helps you kind of determine what's working, what's not. And what I see a lot of times is that there is so many there are so many plugins and there are so many themes and things that you can add to your website that you know becomes a smorgus board of of just bloat of things that just cause problems with your site speed. Especially when people add things to to **[09:54]** cart and they want to check out. That's typically where you see problems happening because, you know, you can hop onto any of these, you know, manage web hosts, which are all, you know, there's so many great ones out there and you can get a fast site, but where the game changes is when there's something in the cart and you try to check out, that's typically when it creates some type of a unique browsing experience and you tend to see slowdowns. So that's when you kind of need to take a step back as a store owner and understand what kind of **[10:25]** plugins am I running on my website. What are the things that are causing me to understand or rather understand why I'm having problems with speed or why I'm having problems with making good headway wherever you might be in a competitive space. Why is your site slower than your competitor's site? Um I think there's a lot of things to look at and then just try to understand what things can you do without what things um can you try to take out of **[10:56]** your website to simplify your experience and it's a journey you know there's no I I think a lot of people that are might listen to this and certainly a lot of people that I meet on a day-to-day basis they're always in this predicament where it's you know add whatever the popular plugins are do whatever Google or sorry what AI is telling you to do nowadays um to add to your website. It's it's easy to fall victim into that and not know what the best and breed plugins are and what's going to cause your website to **[11:28]** run most optimally. So, um and like I said, there's no easy way to find that out until you're kind of rubber meets the road, taking transactions, getting traffic, and understanding how your website holds up against that. Yeah, I mean you you touched on this the term you use like the shiny object, right? Like the the that is the blessing and the curse of honestly WordPress but also Woo Commerce of it is so easy to install a plug-in >> and start turn it on and start using it, **[11:59]** right? And um like you said, many stores start small and many of these stores have were built by the store owner in some way, right? And so they're trying things, but then when you start to see that success, which we all want for for those online stores, that starts to add up right now. You have 30 plugins running and you're starting to do some significant sales. That's going to have an impact on Yeah. performance, low times, and performance is such a huge metric, especially in e-commerce, as we all know. You know, little fractions of a second can lose sales. So, um, **[12:29]** performance is always the number one thing we're focused on here, right? So, if they're adding all these plugins for us, you know, kind of going back to what is the root cause or what is the the the the reason why they're doing this is trying to understand, well, what is why did you add that plugin? What is it you're trying to is it just to get like make another sale because you think it's going to add another call to action button or something? Is it somehow optimizing your checkout process? It's it's it's from our perspective, it's um it's having more intention on what you're doing and what it's really focused on the goal and working back from there. I always like to to align **[13:00]** what we do with like Batman and his bat belt, right? Like we got a lot of tools, a lot of things we could use for this whatever the situation is, but what's the best one for them? What's the best one for you, right? So, you know, I'd love to hear a little bit more about how you you kind of uh handle those situations, too. >> Yeah. So, obviously, one of the biggest things to focus on is the front end of your web. >> Earlier, there's a lot of web hosts that can give you a fast site that's cached. You get there and things load in really quick, but it starts to have some **[13:31]** problems once you add things to the cart. Now, think about your staff. Think about your CSRs. Think about the people that actually do fulfillment for your site. There gets to a point of growth for an online store that you have so many plugins running on your site and you have so many uh things in the back end that cause the the actual logged in dashboard experience to be just a mess and super slow. And I hear that so constantly with people that you know get **[14:03]** to this certain point of growth and that that's sort of a neglected thing, right? So I think going back to the shiny object syndrome, there are so many themes that will allow you to get a website uh built quickly without code. And we live in a time where, you know, everybody can easily get a website. You can go on a cloud, you can basically tell it to design you a website, and you could probably teach yourself how to put together a theme. But a lot of people **[14:33]** will get on there and they'll set up a theme that's got a builder and it will, you know, set things up across the website and you're loading in so many things and you're causing so many database queries and so that has an impact not only on the front end of the website but also on the back end of the website. So you got to factor in your opportunity cost here and determine you know how do you fix that? And that's the that's the challenging thing. Kind of like you said, Brad, think about where you want to be and then kind of take a **[15:04]** step back. There's no shame in taking these methods to build your website and doing a DIY process. I think if you've gotten to this point where you're getting sales and you know how to get traffic to your website and you're converting it, whichever way you get there, it's a win, you know? So, so don't fault yourself. And it's not a it's not a race either. Like if you find yourself a good partner, you have to grow to a point where you can actually afford to hire a good partner uh that will help you with your WooCommerce **[15:35]** site. And then just come up with a game plan of understanding what it is that it's on your website that's sort of causing you to get slowdowns on the front end and what's causing your staff to have all types of trouble on the back end doing fulfillment and using the dashboard overall. So, lots of things to think about. So, I'll probably answer that in the longest way possible. >> No, I love it. And and you know, I think too is people also lose sight of the what a normal, you know, quote unquote normal online customer. The experience **[16:08]** that they expect is a very specific experience when you're buying something online, right? Like we've had to talk clients out of trying to make this unique. Let's do it different than everybody. I'm like that's not this isn't the place you want to do things like massively different. Like there is a certain expectation when you buy something online. There's a cart, >> get your things in the cart, make sure you got the quantities, whatever you need, and then there's a checkout process, right? You expect certain things to happen in a certain order. Um, generally speaking, right? That's not an area to really experiment with UI and weird UX. It's like you need things to **[16:38]** work a certain way, and you don't want to confuse someone when they're getting ready to give you a credit card number, right? Or or pay for something. You need to make it familiar. And I think that's important, too, is don't just start throwing things on there just because you're trying to It needs to still be a familiar process. you don't want this Frankenstein checkout and they get to the checkout and they don't realize they're in a cart because it's so convoluted with stuff that they've lost the focus of where's the button to actually finish paying for this thing, right? So, it's also not losing what is it? Not losing sight of the the the forest through the trees or three whatever, you know, like you got to still focus on the number one thing you're trying to do is make sales. So, **[17:09]** whatever you do, get out of their way and make that easy, >> right? The checkout experience is a big thing to focus on because like you said, adding all that friction and trying to do it uniquely is just isn't the best idea. And I'll say something controversial. I don't think it's controversial, but WooCommerce out of the box >> um hot take the uh the out of the box WooCommerce checkout experience. This is just not great. It's it's something that is very much sort of a dogged type of **[17:40]** thing that a lot of people look at and they point to Shopify as like, "Hey, I like that, you know, user experience that's very familiar, you know, because you can get on to any Instagram ad nowadays and you can be on a checkout page on Shopify like that. So, there has to be some type of UI and and fewer steps in order to get through that." And uh there's certainly ways to do that with Woo Commerce, >> you know, and it's a good point because Shopify is kind of the the the the one everyone's comparing Woo Commerce to. **[18:11]** It's really the second, you know, platform up there from a SAS perspective that's not open source, very different kind of model, but it's it is a good online store for many people, right? So I think it kind of begs the the larger question of like where is the sweet spot for Woo Commerce? Like what is this? Is it just selling products? Are there opportunities where digital goods or LMS's or something really out really outperform on Woo Commerce versus trying to set up other, you know, services that work with Shopify? Like, and and this is really, you know, I'm really asking you, **[18:41]** Cody, from your opinion, experience, like where do you find that sweet spot is? And you're like, this is exactly what Woo Commerce just nails and people love it all day long when they're kind of in this area. Is that a question that's possible to answer? And if it is, I'd love to hear your thoughts. >> Sure. So, I'll answer it with just saying first and foremost, if you're starting a business to sell clothes or t-shirts that have, you know, six sizes and three colors, it probably makes sense to launch it on Shopify. And I'll say that because the complex side of Woo **[19:14]** Commerce really works well for, you know, when you get into products with a ton of different variations, you have a bunch of add-ons and you have sort of complex uh buying processes or buying journeys. Um, one thing that we see at Modif, uh, some of a lot of our clients are in using subscriptions on their websites. And so it's been a wonderful tool for their business to be able to use Woo subscriptions and be able to **[19:45]** have their custom setups for all all their variations and be able to set up their website that's all geared towards that subscription flow. So, I'd say subscriptionbased sites both for products and digital goods are a great fit for Woo Commerce. I think there's uh one of our clients is uh in the HVAC space. So, they sell large uh HVAC systems and have a lot of different uh things that need to be added on there and it's it's a pretty complex uh buying **[20:16]** journey. So you you know obviously it's not for the faint of heart but obviously WooCommerce is set up really well to be able to handle that end to end and not only just the front-end experience but also from a customer service experience where somebody's on the other side inside of the website taking phone calls or getting emails and putting orders into the system and matching that up uh both sides. So, I I think there there's really great parody there. And, you **[20:46]** know, I'll say another thing. Um, I've also had some conversations with people that run their sites on Shopify. And this is no, I'm not trying to throw shade at Shopify. Obviously, I work on Shopify sites. We'll we'll help clients with those, too. But I've also had conversations with stores that run on Shopify. And for these larger fulfillment instances with all types of different things that they have to do through their website, there's an acknowledgment of the fact that they're **[21:17]** only getting really 70 to 80% of what they want out of Shopify. And the great thing about Woo Commerce is is that you sort of have your own development destiny that you can give to your team and write out some type of a uh you know like configuration or whatever capabilities you need on your website. And if you have a good partner, they can build that out for you. And so that's that's the beauty of a lot of these plugins that are on Woo Commerce **[21:49]** that run or we would call them extensions. You can further customize a lot of those if you have a good team that knows how to do that and get exactly what you want on your platform that best matches the the the way that you do fulfillment or whatever way you run your business from on on the administrative side. And that's that's a great thing and that's sort of where your limitation would be on Shopify. So, I'd say that, you know, that is certainly that revenue range that sort of hits towards **[22:21]** maybe you're 10 million and above when you're around there in sales >> because the cost of ownership on Shopify is starting to get very large, you know, with how many how many apps you got to buy and how many just just if you're on Shopify Plus, I think I want to say it's close to three grand per month. Somebody's going to fact check me on that. scales. It scales quickly with success, which you know with success there's more of an investment you'd expect, but it does start to scale up in price very quickly once, >> right? You can find a good partner and, **[22:53]** you know, so yeah. >> Yeah, you can find a good partner to get your hosting, you know, dialed in and configured and spend significantly less just at a baseline to run your store. So anyway, um more to that, of course. >> Yeah, I mean I I love everything you said. I think um you know I I I like Shopify too. Like this isn't just a dog on Shopify, but it's it's right there with Woo Commerce. So I think it's always the one everyone's really comparing the two right at the top right now for e-commerce for most you know a lot of the stores out there. So um and **[23:24]** it is the place I will recommend if someone's like hey I got this product idea >> and you know they always just like you I'm sure friends family you know come to us. Can you fix my printer? Can you can you launch an online store? Of course I'm the tech guy. I do it all right. So, but I'm like, I don't want to really set that up and manage it. So, Shopify is a great way to test your idea, right? Hey, you get a couple sales, start to validate your idea, you might have something. And then when things start to work, you want to then you want to make the decision, well, where do I really want to land? Because once it scales to a certain point or even starts really becoming successful, you know, that idea **[23:55]** of of switching platforms is not a small lift. Um, even which either way you're going, right? like there is a online store, there is orders, there's a customer history, there's accounts, there's products, you know, inventory, all this stuff that you'd have to go from one system to another. So, it's a it's a big lift going from one to the other. So, you also want to be thinking longer term of where do I want to be? What are the costs going to look like when I hit certain thresholds if I am on Shopify and are those sustainable for me? Or is now the time to switch over to something Woo Commerce like you said, really optimize the store to exactly how **[24:26]** you want it. find a really elegant, you know, fairly inexpensive host, which there are many out there that specialize in, uh, WordPress and Woo Commerce. Um, and away you go and your costs are going to be significantly less, especially as you scale up into to much more success and a lot more sales, right? But, um, so totally agree with that. I do want to, uh, kind of po I want to get some a little more specific on some of your advice on some of these things. So, we talked um, you know, we think about like leakiest bucket, right? when you go into a WooCommerce store and I'd be curious like is there something like one thing **[24:57]** that really drains revenue without owners even knowing it? Like is there something that you know maybe not every site you look at but is there something that kind of stands out that's something you see that's very common that either hurts revenue you know hurts sales or whatever and it seems to be like a common pattern a lot of people try and it just doesn't work the way they think it will. Anything come to mind that stands out that people need to be aware of? >> What's Cody's big tip here? >> Yeah, there's there's a few here. Um, so obviously your website, >> whatever you got. >> Yeah, website host I think is is one thing. So there there's a specific I **[25:28]** mean gosh, one trying to isolate that. So like obviously >> couple things. Host for sure. That's >> right. A macro thing to bring up would just be sight speed. So I think the the the thing that online store owners are always chasing is better sight speed. And it's kind of a known thing that Woo Commerce can slow your you can slow your website down pretty quick if you don't have the right partner and you slap in all these plugins and you have you know a site builder that's that's loading a **[26:00]** million inquiries with each page load, right? So um you know just just having too many plugins on your website. Obviously less plugins you can you can utilize the better. um kind of going back to what you were saying is like you know it's no frills like having don't try to reinvent the wheel having simplified things another thing is uh your checkout experience so obviously going back to what we talked about I think that the out of the box WooCommerce checkout flow is sometimes a **[26:30]** little cumbersome for a lot of online buyers so we sort of have a recommendation for a plugin here we use uh um Kestrel's plugin and check out WC as a uh a good tool that that basically gives you a very similar Shopify UI that that you can configure onto your website and you can do a lot of customization there and I believe in their new version they have AB testing as well. So that's a really good tool. So, I'd say sight **[27:01]** speed, checkout, and then I'd say as like a more of a it's not really like something super specific, but more of another macro thing is that relationship between your code and your host. So for instance, I think a lot of people out there are just having conversations saying, "Oh, we need to go and get a faster server or, oh, we need to get over here and get on to AWS or get on to Google Cloud or, you know, spend a lot more for their **[27:32]** hosting." and all of our hosting partners are probably uh kind of um upset with us right now, but there is sort of a nuance and a and a understanding of the process and the time that it takes in order to get that sort of right harmony between your website and your host. So, one thing that that Woo Commerce recently launched not too long ago is uh HPOS, which is uh the high performance order system. And we've seen some really good success in a **[28:02]** lot of the sites we've been a enabling that on to get really good wins across the board, especially with stores that are doing say a subscription store that does a bunch of orders every single day and does that automated. Uh we got some really massive wins implementing that on some mature stores and that's part of that process with that maturity we have with the software alongside the server. So, I I'm kind of pointing out these things and it's maybe a little bit of a **[28:33]** frustrating answer because aside from checkout WC, there there just really isn't an easy win. Uh yeah, especially when you have these sort of um you know, things that happen on your site. I'd say for people that are spending money to get traffic uh on ads or SEO or whatever, there's definitely, you know, just making sure that your website is fully tuned to be fast and be able to be conversion ready and and understanding **[29:03]** you have, you know, possibly some maybe versions set up. Um, I'd say those are some of the things that are that we see often. Some of the things that we see that kind of affects our clients ability to be able to, you know, get the sales that they're looking for. >> Yeah, great advice. Check out wc.com if you want to take a look at that. I firmly agree with the host u recommendation because >> e-commerce has a special set of requirements on a host because it's a if **[29:34]** you have a a marketing site, a content site, caching is such an important part of it, right? And that's what helps make it blazing fast and you don't have to go hit the database every time the page loads. Well, with e-commerce, there's some of that, right? But some of it can't be cached, right? Like caching the checkout process because you're live interacting with the database, right? So, it has to. And so that's where those special considerations come in to make sure you're working with a host that truly understands that. Right? So if you're not working with one, I would say make sure it's a WordPress managed host, right? Make sure it's somebody that specializes specifically in WordPress. **[30:06]** Not just saying you can host WordPress here, but they specialize it, right? And then talk to them about Woo Commerce. Say, "What do you do special for Woo Commerce?" Knowing there's certain considerations. If you start to have success and orders are flowing in, like you said, the last thing you want is your host to, you know, and fall over when people are trying to pay you money. That is absolutely, you know, a e-commerce website owner's nightmare, right? Is like people want to pay and the site breaks. So, um, you know, definitely that is almost one of the most important things. Make sure you're on the right host because almost nothing else will matter if you're not, right? So, a lot of good recommendations out **[30:37]** there, a lot of articles, but definitely manage WP, manage WordPress host, and then make sure they have famili familiarity with Woo Commerce and they can actually speak intelligently about it because if they're just pulling out buzzwords and stuff, that should be a big red flag. >> Yeah. Don't don't uh launch your website and then run a Super Bowl commercial and with a country entry level Cloudflare account. They spent like 70 million on AI.com and like seven million on the commercial and then it was like on a basic Cloudflare free plan. **[31:08]** >> Yeah, it was like a $500 Cloudflare plan or something. >> I would I would have told them that for a lot cheaper than what they spent on, you know, all in. So, um, but they had to talk with us, you know, >> I validated that. I I was on the website when I saw the the commercial ran and I was like shocked the website just wouldn't load. It was like totally crashed. I'm like, you got to be kidding me, man. I mean, you're spend all that money for rush of traffic and you can't handle. I mean, that is a site owner's nightmare, right? You have a rush of traffic and you can't handle it. Whether you know it's coming, and if you know it's coming, that's really inexcusable. But when you don't know what's coming is **[31:39]** even more, like something goes viral, some celebrity wears something you're selling, and boom, you got a thousand orders in overnight when you're sleeping. That's when you need to make sure your website's solid and the host is solid because you don't want to miss that opportunity because it may never come again. Um, so I do want to go back to a point uh we you kind of touched on but I want to dig in a little bit more and especially as as you know stores start to have some success right they start to grow you know many of the stores start on like you said they they build it they put them together themselves they launch you know validate the idea whatever they start to have **[32:09]** some success where is the threshold of where a store should start looking for outside help either freelancers agencies like ours you know where is that and I know it's not just a numbers thing of well once you make 10 grand a month but like of Course part of it is you got to have the budget for stuff like that. But like is there where is that when when should shop owners start thinking okay I'm getting to the point where this is one beyond my skill set but two this is getting it's going really well but I need somebody that knows how to kind of continue to grow and make sure it's not going to fall over. Like how do you help people understand that as you're kind of **[32:39]** guiding them on this on this uh e-commerce journey? >> Yeah. So I think again anybody who's starting a business and starting an online store DIY is great. you know, start it out, get it as far as you can. It's good to at least get somebody who's a expert in the platform you're running on just to get their ear. Just at least, my advice to you if you're starting a store, book a consultation with a WooCommerce developer to be able to understand, just at least prepare **[33:10]** yourself for what you're getting into and kind of understand the road map you're going down. Because what will happen is when you get to that revenue point where you can afford to hire a firm or a developer, whatever, you're going to have to undo a lot of the things that you've done to get you get you to the point where you're at. So, I think it's good just to get I think you know at Modifact we can I'm always available for a free consult. I'll I'll I'll talk to anybody who comes through our front door just to give them **[33:41]** >> Cody's cell phone at the end here for everyone just to Yeah. Well, um, uh, >> that's a I mean it's great advice because like we're the same, right? You walk in the door, we're going to have a conversation, right? And then our big philosophy and I know yours the same because we talk about this. Like if we're not a good fit, >> I would like to send you in a direction that I think could be a good fit, right? So, right, doesn't mean I'm going to tell you go hire this company or go hire that person, but I'm usually going to we have, you know, references and agencies and Cody's one of them with Mo Effect where if it's just a project that's either not a good fit or we just can't hit their timeline or for whatever **[34:13]** reason, but looks like a good project. We send it to people that we trust and respect. I know if if Cody, you know, lands that project, he's going to take care of them. He's going to do a good job. And that's how I put my karma out in the world, right? I try to share the leads that don't work for us with other people, and I know other people share leads with us. So, it's also making sure, again, we have the conversation. What do you look for? And if you're not a right fit for us, no harm, no foul. Let me send you on to where I think you might be a right fit and people that we do know and trust. And so again, in the WordPress community, in the WordPress world, that's how a lot of us work, right? Which is not like outside **[34:43]** WordPress. It's it's open source. We're friendly. We're friends. Even though we're competitors, Cody and I are competitors. >> People are like, "Why is he why you coming on the podcast with a competitor?" Because we're friends and we share, you know, we send people back and forth based on who's a better fit for who. So, um you know, we're all in this together and trying to help each other. But I think the idea of just getting some expert advice because I'll give people advice. I'm sure you do too. Things to look for, things to stay away from. Oh, so and so said that. >> That's a huge red flag. Do not go that direction, right? Like you can hear some of that. >> Yes, it's free advice, but like we like to help people as much as we can. So **[35:14]** yeah, talk to someone. And there are a lot of, you know, whether it's an agency, whether it's a freelancer, there's a lot of like really really solid Woo Commerce developers out there because honestly, Woo Commerce is not that far off from WordPress. It's built and it's supported in a very similar way. So, you know, it's just a more complex plugin within uh for WordPress. >> Absolutely. >> Yeah. So, um let's see. We're going. If anyone's got questions in the chat um during this is live stream, of course, if you're watching it later, uh good luck. Put them in the comment. But if you have questions, throw them in the **[35:45]** chat. We'll get to them here in just a minute. U one thing I want to show a little bit about shared hosting for the win, Adam. I mean, it's kind of what they did with AI.com, right? So, uh how'd that work out? I think >> $20 a month. >> I don't know if we're going to come back to that question about the salary framing. Um, >> yeah, why don't we why don't we put in on that and then I'll go on to the next one. >> Sure. So, yeah, I just wanted to share on that because I think that's perfect framing, Brad, as far as somebody who's looking at hiring a developer in house. So, I I see that all the time. A lot of **[36:18]** companies will, you know, just think, hey, I want somebody I could see over here in the bullpen. Gosh, I don't know. I mean, that's probably rare a rare case these days, but just having somebody they can have a direct line to to have one throat to choke so that they can make sure all of their stuff is done on their website. Well, you know, you kind of think about that salary requirement. You know, maybe somebody who needs, you know, what is it 70 85k, can we make a living on that amount any anymore? I **[36:48]** don't know. It keeps keeps going up. But anyhow, you think about a company spending anywhere sub $100,000 a year. You could find a generalist web developer to bring onto your team that may sort of know WordPress, that might sort of know, you know, web development and they're learning and they are jack of all trades. Or you can hire a firm that will be a really great fit that has a team of experts and you can use that investment to be able to, you know, use **[37:18]** different skill sets. Whether that's a, you know, part of that's front end, part of that's backend, part of that's database optimization, part of that's just having an overall hosting environment knowhow. Uh, you can really get a good uh investment level hiring an agency. Of course, I'm an agency owner, so I'm going to say that. But we we tend to see that so often. And I also tend to see a lot of companies that come to us for help that have that generalist web developer that have a laundry list of **[37:49]** issues and they things that they're just, you know, that are way outside of their depth. So something >> I mean, I love that because I mean that's that's a point that of course I'm sure you use in sales calls just like I do, but it's a very fair point, right? like a one individual's salary, just call it 100 grand, whatever that is, um is a great salary for that person and they probably be maybe they are an amazing fit and they do know stuff, but it is also one person, right? So there's also one single point of failure, sick days, PTO, you know, things like that, right? versus again spending a similar **[38:21]** amount, not having that commitment of a employee um and having you know Cody's team, my team, a team of experts, data specialists, UI, UX, SEO, whatever, uh to come in and help you out with a lot of redundancy. So, it's I think it's a great point. I'm glad you made it because I think it's just again store owners sit down and see where you're at and see what makes sense. Maybe that full hire does make sense based on what you're doing, but it's always good to kind of think about other options and and again, maybe it's just try it. Try it. You know, hire Cody, a higher mode effect for a month or two. Are you **[38:52]** seeing results? Is it there? If not, all right, go somewhere else and you're not stuck with a hire that's not producing results, right? But I have no doubt Cody and his team will produce results. U because when either one of us get our foot in the door, we're only going to do amazing things um and help our clients. So, great great advice. I want to um I want to round it out here a little bit with uh you know we talked about modernization we talked about you know staying away from shiny things smart growth um I want to show off a little bit about what we've been doing with theme switcher around Woo Commerce and specifically around how this can **[39:23]** actually help versus hey I'm on an old store I'm on an old site we want to modernize we we we love Woo Commerce but we want to redesign we want to rebuild we want to redo the whole thing right well that's that big oh gosh this is going to be a big big project big commitment big financial commitment everyone a lot of time. It's just, you know, it's risky to the business. What happens if something goes wrong? There is still a world where that makes sense, don't get me wrong. And there's a world where that should make sense for a lot of companies, but it's not the only way we can accomplish this now. So, um, I'm going to show this off and I'm going to blow Cody's mind. No, he's seen this. **[39:54]** Um, >> yeah, I'm excited, man, because we, uh, we need something like this on the Effect site. >> Well, we'll get it on there. All right. So, live local demo, baby. These are always fun. Please work. Now it'll work. Um, so really simple basic example. This is a default WordPress install. Uh, 6.9 maybe 0.1. I don't know if I installed the point release yet, but either way, it's 6.9. It's running 2025, which is currently the, you know, the default theme. You can see we click around here. Everything is 2025. I even have Woo **[40:26]** Commerce running. This is again a default Woo Commerce. Little side tip, too. If you install Woo Commerce, the plugin, it comes with a sample data file in the plugin that you can import a bunch of fake data like I did here. So, if you want to test it out, it's right in the plugin. Just grab that file and import it uh in WordPress and away you go. So, really easy way to kind of test some things. But, this is a store, fully functional store. I don't have, you know, checkout uh payment integration here. This is just local, but everything else works. Add to cart, whatever. So, this is where the power of what we built comes in. So, we built a plugin called **[40:57]** theme switch and it allows you to switch the theme on a pa one page at a time, one section at a time, you know, based on category, based on custom post type, based on whatever you want. So, but the real power here for Woo Commerce is we have an integration. So, as we know, Woo Commerce, there's a products custom post type. There's a number of pages Woo Commerce makes. You could manually switch all of those with theme switcher, but we know what Woo Powers Commerce. So, we've actually baked that in um to theme switcher. So, it will recognize any theme. You can't see me clicking the drop down here, but if I click it, any **[41:28]** theme in my theme directory is in this dropdown. I'm going to go with storefront, which is the Automatics official Woo Commerce um theme. I'll just save that. And then when I switch it back to my live website, guess what? It's still 2025 because I didn't change the live website. I changed the shop. But when I go to the store, boom, now we're running storefront. So everything in Woo Commerce is running storefront. Product details, add to cart, the cart, everything. my account, it's all running **[41:58]** um storefront. But if I go anywhere else on my website that is not Woo Commerce about page, I'm right back to 2025. Homepage, I'm right back to 2025. So, uh pretty extreme example of just switching the whole thing over. But you could also just switch your shop main page. You could switch just your product detail page. You could build out using a new theme, a new product detail page and swap it. Now imagine like the homepage. You could just make homepage two that runs on a block theme. Build out the whole homepage. And you know what you **[42:28]** have to do to launch that? Just go to your reading settings and change homepage to homepage two and hit save. And you've just relaunched your homepage on a block theme. So this is a real game changer in terms of modernization, iterization, but doing it iteratively, right? Chipping away at it again. And this is a tool for for us. This is a tool for Cody. This is a tool for agencies, impleers, and store owners. So even if you're not technical, you could install this and start, you know, using storefront or using a blockbased theme on maybe a theme that is using old classic editor um and really change the **[42:59]** game in a matter of minutes um versus months of rebuilding your whole theme. So >> I have a real question for you for so we talked about in the instance of WooCommerce sites where they use these builder themes or you know these no code themes. So, what about somebody who has a website that comes on to, you know, that that wants to sort of do this low buildout? Like, if we're working with a client, we're like, "Hey, you really need to get on to using Gutenberg because it's going to help your website speed." So, will this be compatible with **[43:31]** people who use like say BeaverBuilder or um >> It is compatible with BeaverBuilder. So, it's compatible with BeaverBuilder, Divvy. Um there's a couple other page builders. We have a compatibility section on themeswitcher.com. Um, and you can you can you can check it there to see if it's listed. If it's not listed and it's popular, it's probably in the works, but I know for sure BeaverBuilder and Divvy are both fully supported and tested. Um, because again, your point, if their whole shop is running BeaverBuilder, you could selectively start replacing out those templates with storefront or a blockbased theme or anything outside of **[44:01]** BeaverBuilder. So, um, we know that's a big market for this because exactly what you said, performance, right? Or you could go the other way. You could start using BeaverBuilder on certain pages if you really wanted to. So, it's super flexible. Um, really, if you if the theme follows WordPress standards, it works, right? Page builders, you had to put a little little bit of extra testing in there and extra considerations because they're doing a lot more. But generally speaking, if a theme is a block theme, a new theme, whatever, and it follows the WordPress standards, it works with theme switcher. Um, so of course, always test. Um, but we've had a lot of success. We're using this to we **[44:34]** are landing more projects with this process. we are bringing it's giving us another option to bring to the table, right? When someone says, "Hey, we want to redo our Woo Commerce." Okay, we have a couple options here. We could go traditional route and and for some projects that's perfect and that's exactly what they want. Or we could go the the new the new route with Theme Switcher Pro and we could have results in a matter of a week, two weeks. You could start seeing results, you know. Um, so pretty cool. I want to throw it out because I do think with the the the larger topic of modernization, don't just flip it all upside down. There's a **[45:04]** lot of options out there now, right? So, um whether it's theme switcher pro, whether you know just whether it's just modifi, you know, modified or working with a pro like Cody that knows, hey, you shouldn't have 15 plugins running on your checkout page. You know, you shouldn't have all these things that are flashing when I'm trying to click the pay button. The only thing that should be in my mind is clicking that pay button, right? So, um bring in the experts. Just let him audit your site. He's going to come back with recommendations that are going to make you money. And that's what I love about e-commerce because it's so like websites are all based on traffic and sometimes ads and things like that, but e-commerce **[45:35]** it's very black and white if it's working. Are you making sales or not, right? So for me, it's just I'm a data guy. It's zeros and ones. It's either working or it's not. >> Um, so it's always you can analyze it and with a few tweaks, >> you can start making more money and easily justify hiring an agency like ours. So, um, yeah. Any final thoughts? I have one final segment I want to do, but Cody, I'll leave it to you for final thoughts before we get into that. >> Yeah, I mean, just, you know, I think it's again just, you know, getting back to just knowing your your basics here **[46:06]** and figuring out, you know, I think there's a lot of SMBs running on Woo Commerce. So, you just you really want to educate yourself. And I and I I can't stress enough having an agency that understands Woo Commerce in your back pocket, even just to get some education. I think it's a good investment even if there's, you know, just a free consultation or just making a small investment with them, you know. Um, this is where we're going to flash the the donation screen up on on the YouTube. So, you know, make a small donation. **[46:37]** >> Subscribe. >> Yeah, that's I just say that's key. >> Yeah, it's good advice for sure. Um, talk to people and honestly, I think a lot of us like helping because it is the open source mentality. It's helping. It's we all help each other. We all grow, right? And so really just in the open source world that's a lot that's our mindset because that's how we've been building for years and in our case decades, right? So um so yeah, great great advice. I want to end on a final little fun segment here. Cody has no idea what I'm about to do. Um which is even more fun. So we're going to call **[47:07]** this segment the cart recovery rapidfire segment. So this is real simple. I'm going to throw a quick question over to Cody. Cody, you got five seconds to give me your answer and then we're going right to the next one. I'm just gonna rapid fire you some big old e-commerce questions and I want to see what you come up with. >> This could be fun. >> Maybe they're not big old questions, but I it'll be fun. Okay. >> How do you feel about this? I don't have sound effects. That's the only thing I'm a little sad about. I need like ticking and a ding or a buzzer, but >> yeah, you need a soundboard. >> Maybe for the next one we'll bring back the drag cast or something. But all **[47:37]** right. All right. Here we go. The cart recovery rapid fire segment starts now. All right. Shopify verse Woo Commerce. Who wins for a brand doing 10 million plus? I'd say Woo Commerce. >> Woo Commerce. All right. Free shipping banner. Mandatory or lame? >> Pretty lame. All right. Page builders, Elementor, BeaverBuilder, or pure Gutenberg blocks? >> Gutenberg blocks. >> I like it. All right. Spin to win discount wheel. Fun gamification or immediately close tab. **[48:09]** >> Uh, depends on your audience. >> Oh, I like it. Depends. Depends what you're giving away, maybe. All right. A client has $500 left in the monthly budget. Are they buying a plugin or one hour of your developer time? >> One hour of the developer time. >> That's an agency owner. I knew it. >> Y plugin. I do have company. But >> besides Woo Commerce, what is one must have plugin that every single store needs? >> Oh gosh. Now this a hard one, dude. Check out WC. >> Check out WC. That's an easy answer. All right. AI gener. We're almost there. **[48:41]** We're almost there. AI generated product descriptions. Timesaver or Soulcrusher? >> Um, both. >> Both. >> I don't disagree. You need some description in there, right? All right. What's scarier? Last one. The nightmare scenario. What's scarier? 500 server air during Black Friday sale or a client with just one quick idea for the checkout page. >> Definitely the 500 because we could I think we we could tell our clients to settle down as far as the last minute uh customizations. happen on a Black Friday sale that is not people buying is **[49:12]** probably the worst case scenario, right? So, >> yep. >> All right. Pretty good. That was painless, right? A little rapid fire. That was kind of fun. I do wish I had sound effects, but >> I checked my heart rate on my Apple Watch. Let's see. >> Did it get a different spike? You're in a loud, nervous environment. >> Um, no, this was a lot of fun, Cody. I really appreciate appreciate you coming on. Um, you know, we had a a really great conversation around commerce and, you know, everything that, you know, we're doing around modernization. As I pull up my slide here and kind of ramble, but um, real quick, I want to **[49:42]** give you an opportunity just tell people how they can find you online. How do they reach out and find Cody and work with Mode Effect? >> Yeah, modifact.com. Uh, you can find us there. And then, um, if you want to connect with me, LinkedIn's probably the best place. Just search up my name link on LinkedIn, Cody Landerfeld. And then um if you dare uh on X, you could find me at Cody L, but there's not not a whole lot of business advice I'm giving out on there. More so on LinkedIn. So find me on there and uh look forward to connecting with anybody. >> Awesome. Yeah, definitely track Cody **[50:13]** down on LinkedIn at Brad Williamsdevstudios.com. Williamsba pretty much everywhere. If it's not, just add a one or two ones until you find me. Um but yeah, Williamsba, you'll find me. So definitely reach out. We're very approachable. But we love just sharing advice and uh Cody, really appreciate you coming on, man. Um it's been a lot of fun. Share a lot of great advice. >> If anyone's out in the Phoenix area or just look up modif.com, modif.com and reach out to Cody and his team there. They're killing it. And like you said, they don't just do Woo Commerce. They're an e-commerce agency. So if **[50:44]** you're selling stuff online, go talk to Cody and his team. They'll take care of you. >> Absolutely. And go Debbacks. >> Phillies. It's baseball season. Even though it's like negative10 out right now, but I am so ready for warm weather in baseball. So >> yeah. So that's that's one way we're like not on the same page there. Brad, you said we're friendly and then until it comes down to our baseball team. >> Baseball baseball I'm more passionate about because my Raiders just haven't even played football in 20 years. So uh I'll be I'll be uh once the Raiders actually get good, you won't want to be around me, but I hope it's coming. But **[51:15]** we'll end it there. So thank you for tuning in. And again, we got the replay up on YouTube. So until next time, I think we have another fun one next month. So watch out. We will announce it as soon as we have it scheduled. So, uh, thanks for joining and we'll see you soon. Thanks everybody.