The Psychology of Being a Super Communicator | Charles Duhigg  🔗 **Source:** [The Psychology of Being a Super Communicator | Charles Duhigg](https://share.snipd.com/episode/490f2b3d-298a-443d-8a91-9c1cb17464dd) ## Highlights - **AI Makes Emotional Signals More Valuable** - Generative AI amplifies practical communication while eroding honest signals like handcrafted fluency. - That raises the value of emotional and social signals humans still convey face-to-face. Transcript: Charles Duhigg Communicating differently? Well, I think one of the things that comes up a lot when I'm talking to people about the book and about how to use the book is there wasn't a chapter on AI because generative AI really didn't Exist at that point when I was writing it. And now of course we live in a, in a chat GPT and clawed world. But what's interesting is that I was talking to someone, actually someone at Microsoft the other day, and she was saying that the drawback of generative AI is that it used to be when someone Sent you an email and it was really well-written, that was a signal. It was a signal that they had thought about it, that they had spent some time on it, that they're pretty smart. Now every email can be really well-written. And as a result, what's happened is that a lot of the signals, not just in emails, but in all kinds of things around language, a lot of the signals are no longer functioning as well as they Can, right? We've where a fluency and a polish meant something because that fluency and that polish can be artificially manufactured now. Absolutely. Michael Gervais I think everyone in our community knows exactly that. Like email's coming through now. You can't tell if somebody took a lot of time, a little bit of time, but on that point, it's almost like, let's go back to 2024, 2014, whatever. There's an artificial nature to that signal. That's exactly right. Oh, okay. Charles Duhigg So here's the thing that I think it's not so much that it's changed as much as it become more true, which is in the book, we talk about the practical conversation, the emotional conversation, The social conversation. Let's come back to that. Yeah. Michael Gervais Open those up. Yeah. Okay. Charles Duhigg But the practical AI is really good at the practical conversation, right? AI can give you instructions on how to do something, but the emotional conversation and the social conversation, those are as important, if not more important. And AI isn't good at that. So you're exactly right. ([Time 0:02:50](https://share.snipd.com/snip/f106d6a5-0717-4e1b-aa32-e6fe03574a47)) - **Three Conversation Types Explain Most Misunderstandings** - Conversations fall into three kinds: practical, emotional, and social, and most misunderstandings happen when participants are in different kinds. - Matching the other person's conversation type (the matching principle) lets you move together and feel connected, otherwise solutions feel wrong or cold. Transcript: Charles Duhigg Let's come back to that. Yeah. Michael Gervais Open those up. Yeah. Okay. Charles Duhigg But the practical AI is really good at the practical conversation, right? AI can give you instructions on how to do something, but the emotional conversation and the social conversation, those are as important, if not more important. And AI isn't good at that. So you're exactly right. I can read a beautiful worded email that actually even has some poetry to it. Michael Gervais That's written by AI, but I can tell when it's AI and when it's a real person. Okay. So actually I was doing something a little differently. I'm agreeing with you. What I was pointing to is like, let's go back to 2014 before we knew about AI is that email is a signal of a thoughtful, smart person. But I'm saying, wait, hold on. Maybe, maybe not because it's not an honest signal. It is a signal. So honest signals, quote unquote, honest signals, and that's an actual thing, is when somebody gives you a tell that they can't hide. And like pupil dilation, like a reflexive sweating in an uncomfortable situation heart palpitation or hives crawling up the neck. Like there's quote unquote honest signals. Those for people that are exceptionally aware and tuned are incredible bits of information. But on an email, I don't know how long you took to craft it. I don't know if you asked your neighbor to help you craft it. So there's a proxy in here somewhere. That's where I was going. Charles Duhigg Yeah, and I think that's right. I mean, I think what you're getting at is that different channels of communication have different densities, right? And when we're talking face-to those honest signals, I can pick up on a lot of them because I have so much information. I get to see where your eyes are going. I get to hear your tone of voice. I get to see your expressions. On an email, I still have some channels and information available to me, but it's less. And so as a result, what I think was happening back in 2014 and is happening even more now is we are starting to lean into the other forms of information in a much more serious way. For example? For example, if somebody sends me an email and it's just effusive with praise, you wrote the best book ever. I read it and it changed my life. There's a part of my brain that's saying, this seems like it might be AI generated, right? This seems like it might be something that like is a form letter that maybe it's not AI generated, but maybe he's saying that to everyone. But then if it says something not only unique to me, I liked this about the power of habit or super communicators, but more importantly, something that seems emotionally true, something That seems emotionally real, that's the signal I pay attention to now. And so these soft skills that we have as humans, the ability to transmit to be emotionally contagious, to detect insincerity, those are becoming even more valuable now because the Michael Gervais Practical has gotten easier. There you go. So you're still supporting your framework, practical, social, and emotional. Charles Duhigg A little bit. Yeah. Okay. Michael Gervais And just to reiterate the obvious of what you've said is that AI is exceptionally skilled at practical communication. Yep. Right. So that mindset of like, let me just hit the kind of thing. And it tries with some emotion bit, but it's not very good at it. Right. Is what your point is. And as humans, there's three approaches to be great communicators. There's a practical communication style. There's the emotional and there's the social. Charles Duhigg And we'll do all three of them. Right? So in a real conversation like this conversation, we will move from a practical conversation to an emotional conversation and to a social conversation and then back to a practical Conversation together. And that's the key, is that if we're having different kinds of conversations, if you're telling me about something emotional that happened with you and your family, and I say, oh, here's How you want to solve that. Here's what you want to do, right? I'm in a practical mindset. You're an emotional mindset. We're not going to feel like we're connecting with each other. And we're definitely not going to be able to hear each other really well. ([Time 0:04:17](https://share.snipd.com/snip/7502a68b-0f56-456f-b02c-75c032ac8492)) - **Channel Density Makes Emotional Specifics Stand Out** - Different communication channels carry different signal densities; face-to-face provides many 'honest signals' that email lacks. - As written fluency becomes cheap, people prioritize emotionally true specifics over polished prose. Transcript: Charles Duhigg I mean, I think what you're getting at is that different channels of communication have different densities, right? And when we're talking face-to those honest signals, I can pick up on a lot of them because I have so much information. I get to see where your eyes are going. I get to hear your tone of voice. I get to see your expressions. On an email, I still have some channels and information available to me, but it's less. And so as a result, what I think was happening back in 2014 and is happening even more now is we are starting to lean into the other forms of information in a much more serious way. For example? For example, if somebody sends me an email and it's just effusive with praise, you wrote the best book ever. I read it and it changed my life. There's a part of my brain that's saying, this seems like it might be AI generated, right? This seems like it might be something that like is a form letter that maybe it's not AI generated, but maybe he's saying that to everyone. But then if it says something not only unique to me, I liked this about the power of habit or super communicators, but more importantly, something that seems emotionally true, something That seems emotionally real, that's the signal I pay attention to now. And so these soft skills that we have as humans, the ability to transmit to be emotionally contagious, to detect insincerity, those are becoming even more valuable now because the Michael Gervais Practical has gotten easier. There you go. So you're still supporting your framework, practical, ([Time 0:05:46](https://share.snipd.com/snip/49523dac-497d-49c5-aa0a-906a819a3609)) - **Language Evolved To Connect Not To Inform** - Language evolved primarily to connect people, not to transmit information, so most daily talk seeks social bonding. - That explains why emotions and identity matter more than facts in many conversations. Transcript: Charles Duhigg It's a nice secondary benefit that I can tell you, oh, the code for the lock is 0894, right? We can use it as an information sharing device. But the reason why language evolved was to help us connect with each other. And if you think about 90% of the conversations you had yesterday, you weren't really sharing that much information. You were talking to your wife and you were saying, hey, how was your day? Not because you really want to know exactly what she did that day, but because you want to connect with her, right? Or you're saying to a friend like, hey, I saw this movie. It was pretty good. Like we should hang out sometime. When we communicate, and the reason why communication, which is our superpower, homo sapien superpower is our ability to communicate. ([Time 0:19:36](https://share.snipd.com/snip/aa7c3ba2-8a9a-426e-84e7-fd5e95d21a76)) - **Ask Do You Want Help Hug Or Hear** - Ask one simple question to orient the other person: do you want to be helped, hugged, or heard? - Use this to determine practical, emotional, or social needs before offering solutions, especially with kids or partners. Transcript: Charles Duhigg Okay. So one of my favorite ways of explaining this is that if you're a teacher, one of the things you learn in teacher training is that if a student comes up and they have something important That they want to ask you about, you should start by asking them a question. And the question you should ask is, do you want to be helped? Do you want to be hugged? Or do you want to be heard? Which, of course, is the practical, the emotional, and the social, right? And what's amazing is that if anyone listening has young kids at home, next time they come up to you with something, ask them, do you want to be helped hugged or heard? And they'll know exactly what they want right away. They'll tell you like, no, no, no, I don't need you to help me. I just need you to know that Jimmy's been mean to me, right? I need to tattle on him. I need you to hear me, right? Or I don't need you to fix this problem. I just need you to give me a hug and make me feel better about it. What about when the response comes back and is like, you should know the answer to that? You've been talking to my wife, haven't you? Don't you know me by now? Damn it, I need a hug or whatever it is, yeah. Well, so one of the things, I mean, the other place is that in the workplace, you can't really ask people if they wanna be helped hug to her, right? They're gonna call HR. So in those cases, asking a deep question is the next best thing we can do. And sometimes you can just ask a question about what kind of conversation they want. When I come home and I start complaining about my day, my wife will often say, do you want me to help you solve this problem or do you just need to get it off your chest? Michael Gervais Yeah. That hinge between those two ideas has been really important for my wife and I. Are we in problem solving mode? Right. I'm just asking, like, do you want me to go problem solving with you or is this calibration? Yes. You know, problem solving or calibration. And it's like, nah, calibrate. Like I just, I need to talk it through, you know, or like, no, I'm looking for a solution. Come on, get with it. Charles Duhigg Got it. You know, so. And we can do that in any conversation. That's why I say being a super communicator, it's not really something, a super human thing. It's something that any human can do because at any point we can ask, you know, that sounds like a really tough time you're going through. Do you want me to help you think through some solutions to it? ([Time 0:23:34](https://share.snipd.com/snip/ee2e4037-b5c6-4a31-b58a-f5a890531e97)) - **Professor Stopped My Story By Asking About A Doorbell** - Michael Gervais recounts a professor interrupting his anxious story and asking, "When the doorbell rings, do you have to answer it?" - The interruption stopped him from rehearsing trauma and nudged him toward a different narrative. Transcript: Michael Gervais I was in a tough way, freshman year in college. And there was a professor, he happened to be a psychology professor, and there was attunement that was happening. Like I felt like connected to him some kind of way. I didn't know psychology was a thing really, but I liked the conversations in the class. I saw him outside of the building as we were walking to the building and I was having a tough time. I was like really anxious at this time in my life. So I came up to him. I was like, Hey doc, you got a minute? He said, yeah. And I go, I just want to talk to you about something real quick. Are you going to class? So we both knew it was a short conversation. And he goes, yeah, let's walk. And so he said, what's up? And I started getting into this thing that was bothering me. And he interrupted me. Right in the first third of my entree into what I was struggling with. He didn't even get to the struggling piece. And he said, Mike, when the doorbell rings, do you have to answer it? And I looked at him like, what's that got to do with anything? And my thought was like, psychologists are kooks. And he looked at me and he saw that I was like big eyed, like, what are you saying? And what has this got to do with my trauma that I'm, you know, not really trauma, micro trauma. And he peeled off and walked away. Huh. I didn't get it. It took me another, the next week. I was like, Hey doc, I came back around to him. I didn't get what happened. Like, do you have a minute? I just really want to tell you that he did it again. He interrupted me about a third of the way through. It took me years. He never gave me the answers to what he was doing. But I know now he interrupted my story. And in doing that, he didn't allow me to rehydrate it. Yeah. He stopped it from blooming. He created a chaos that was like a gift. He wasn't going to sit in the presence of a person re-traumatizing themselves through telling their story again and again. I had this story perfected. Yeah. Yeah. ([Time 0:27:33](https://share.snipd.com/snip/18741c0e-91c4-4ad1-952d-75448e311d0b)) - **Ask Why It Matters Before Trying To Persuade** - When discussing divisive topics, first signal genuine curiosity and then abstract to 'why is this important to you' to uncover underlying values. - Share a brief personal vulnerability afterward so reciprocity preserves connection. Transcript: Charles Duhigg Feeling connected, even when we disagree with each other? A huge part of it is that I need to believe you're actually listening to me. Because very often, if I'm in a conversation about politics and you're telling me all about why you support your guy, and I'm going to tell you all about why I support my guy, as you're Talking, I'm waiting my turn to speak. I'm not necessarily listening. And you know that, right? You can feel that in the back of your head. Is this person actually listening or is he just waiting his turn to speak? So I have to actually prove to you that I'm listening. I have to say, look, here's what I hear you saying. You told me that you like your candidate because it feels like he's standing up for the little guy. And what I hear you saying is that it feels like the little guy isn't getting the opportunities that you think America is supposed to provide for them. Am I getting that right? Am I hearing you correctly? At that moment, what I'm doing is I'm proving to you that I'm paying attention. I'm proving to you that I'm processing what you're saying. Michael Gervais Most importantly, I'm asking you if I got it right. What do you do in a situation to be a super communicator when you are listening hard, well, and you are recalibrating that you're aligned you just heard this is what i heard you say and You might add a little to it to take it a little bit deeper further whatever and then the person is not as interested in your experience but wants to keep going because now they feel seen And heard yeah Right? Like, would you say, fine, just let them go. Like, let that happen. Charles Duhigg You gotta be, I mean, look, you don't have to have a conversation with anyone. There is no obligation to have a conversation with someone, particularly if they don't want to dialogue with you, if they just want you to be a listening post. That's a cool framing. I can walk away from it. Yeah. Now, sometimes though, I can just remind the other person that I belong in this conversation. The classic thing that happens is you go to a party, start talking to someone, you're asking them question after question. They never ask you a question back. Here's what I do in that situation. I say, oh my gosh, you know, I've been asking you so many questions. I'm sure you have some questions to ask me. Let me take a break and like give you a chance to ask me some questions. And here's the interesting thing. They do. They have questions. That's a nice bit of judo. It's a nice little bit of judo. And most importantly, it's not that they didn't have questions. It's that they're not in the habit of asking questions. They don't feel comfortable asking questions. They need my permission. Why do you want to ask them questions? I mean, sometimes it's just because you're at a party and you need someone to talk to, right? I was wondering if this is for you or for them or for the material understanding. Yeah. Okay. Michael Gervais So let's go back to family. Charles Duhigg Yeah, but let's say it's my kid, right? And I'm asking my kid questions after question. And I often use the fast friends procedure, which I'm sure you know that. Oh, the 36 questions that like lead to love. It's this great experiment. If anyone looks it up, it's called the fast friends procedure. It's these 36 questions that they use in experiments to help people feel closer to each other. Whoa, what is this? Really? Yeah. How have I missed this? Yeah, it's wonderful. It's a wonderful- It's called YUM? No, the fast friends procedure. Oh, what did I hear YUM from? Michael Gervais I thought this was like, I thought you were saying Dr. YUM. And I was like, what? Okay, the fast friends procedure. I don't know this. Charles Duhigg Yeah, Arthur and Elaine Aaron in Rhode Island. They came up with this. Okay, say the names again. I missed it. Arthur and Elaine Aaron, A-R Okay, cool. Michael Gervais Married couple. Let's find the link and put it in the show notes. Charles Duhigg Yeah. And it's actually a fun story behind it because what happened was they wanted to come up with a system that could make any two strangers into friends. And they tried all kinds of stuff. They like had people go on walks together or do puzzles together or sing songs together. And basically none of it worked. Like some people would become friends and others wouldn't. And so one day they have a big, they have a big graduate lab and their grad students are like kind of like hippie pot smokers. And so they're like, look, why don't you guys just come up with a bunch of questions that you ask each other after you've been recreationally relaxing. So they write up a bunch of questions and they choose 35 of them. And it starts pretty easy. The first question is, if you could have dinner with anyone from history, who would it be? That's pretty easy, right? But question number seven is, how do you think you will die? Question number 18 is, tell me about your mother. Question 35, the second to last question is, when was the last time you cried in front of another person? Because one of the things that the errands found is they would, they would bring people into a room, sit down kind of like this. They'd give them the list of questions and they tell them go back and forth. So I would ask you the first question, you'd answer it. And then you'd ask me the first question back and forth, back and forth. They, and people felt incredibly close to each other. In fact, so much so that seven weeks later, 70% of the people who had sat in that room had sought out the other person on campus or in the workplace and just said like, let's go have a beer Together. One of them actually got married a year after doing the experiment. It's very cool. They do the exact same experiment, but this time instead of having them go back and forth, they give them a list. I ask you all 36 questions. You answer them. Then you ask me all 36 questions. Didn't work. I think what's important, and this gets to what we were saying before about the back and forth, the why I can't just ask you questions. You have to ask me questions too, is it is the back and forth. It is the synchronicity, the building with each other. That's what makes us feel connected. Michael Gervais So go back to somebody who's having a hard time speaking to their brother, to their sister, to their parent, cousin, uncle. So the first thing they're going to do is they're going to prove that they're listening. Right. Charles Duhigg And they're going to indicate, I genuinely want to listen to you. Like, I understand we voted for different people. I don't want to convince you that my guy is right and your guy is wrong. I don't want to convince you I'm smart and you're dumb. I honestly just want to understand how you see the situation. And when you tell me, I'm going to prove to you that I'm paying attention. And what's going to happen is you're going to be more likely to listen to me in return, right? It's just social reciprocity. ([Time 0:38:20](https://share.snipd.com/snip/92b1ed3b-1b59-450d-848e-4c76ddc38759)) - **Use Fast Friends Back And Forth To Build Closeness** - Use the Fast Friends 36-question back-and-forth to accelerate closeness; the reciprocity matters. - The procedure succeeds only when participants alternately ask and answer, creating synchronous exchange. Transcript: Charles Duhigg Whoa, what is this? Really? Yeah. How have I missed this? Yeah, it's wonderful. It's a wonderful- It's called YUM? No, the fast friends procedure. Oh, what did I hear YUM from? Michael Gervais I thought this was like, I thought you were saying Dr. YUM. And I was like, what? Okay, the fast friends procedure. I don't know this. Charles Duhigg Yeah, Arthur and Elaine Aaron in Rhode Island. They came up with this. Okay, say the names again. I missed it. Arthur and Elaine Aaron, A-R Okay, cool. Michael Gervais Married couple. Let's find the link and put it in the show notes. Charles Duhigg Yeah. And it's actually a fun story behind it because what happened was they wanted to come up with a system that could make any two strangers into friends. And they tried all kinds of stuff. They like had people go on walks together or do puzzles together or sing songs together. And basically none of it worked. Like some people would become friends and others wouldn't. And so one day they have a big, they have a big graduate lab and their grad students are like kind of like hippie pot smokers. And so they're like, look, why don't you guys just come up with a bunch of questions that you ask each other after you've been recreationally relaxing. So they write up a bunch of questions and they choose 35 of them. And it starts pretty easy. The first question is, if you could have dinner with anyone from history, who would it be? That's pretty easy, right? But question number seven is, how do you think you will die? Question number 18 is, tell me about your mother. Question 35, the second to last question is, when was the last time you cried in front of another person? Because one of the things that the errands found is they would, they would bring people into a room, sit down kind of like this. They'd give them the list of questions and they tell them go back and forth. So I would ask you the first question, you'd answer it. And then you'd ask me the first question back and forth, back and forth. They, and people felt incredibly close to each other. In fact, so much so that seven weeks later, 70% of the people who had sat in that room had sought out the other person on campus or in the workplace and just said like, let's go have a beer Together. One of them actually got married a year after doing the experiment. It's very cool. They do the exact same experiment, but this time instead of having them go back and forth, they give them a list. I ask you all 36 questions. You answer them. Then you ask me all 36 questions. Didn't work. I think what's important, and this gets to what we were saying before about the back and forth, the why I can't just ask you questions. You have to ask me questions too, is it is the back and forth. It is the synchronicity, the building with each other. ([Time 0:41:00](https://share.snipd.com/snip/937703ca-4fbb-4e3d-a21d-4f97bcfbe100)) - **Loop For Understanding Before You Argue** - Prove you're listening by looping back and asking if you heard them correctly before responding. - Then ask deeper why questions to surface the person's worldview instead of trying to immediately change their mind. Transcript: Michael Gervais So go back to somebody who's having a hard time speaking to their brother, to their sister, to their parent, cousin, uncle. So the first thing they're going to do is they're going to prove that they're listening. Right. Charles Duhigg And they're going to indicate, I genuinely want to listen to you. Like, I understand we voted for different people. I don't want to convince you that my guy is right and your guy is wrong. I don't want to convince you I'm smart and you're dumb. I honestly just want to understand how you see the situation. And when you tell me, I'm going to prove to you that I'm paying attention. And what's going to happen is you're going to be more likely to listen to me in return, right? It's just social reciprocity. We can't help but do it. But then the second thing I'm going to do is I'm going to try and abstract that conversation to talk about what underlies it. And this is where the why question, the deep question becomes so powerful. Okay. You voted for your guy. I voted for my guy. They see the world really differently. Instead of asking you why you voted for your guy, I'm going to ask you, why is this important to you? Like, like of all the things we can be talking about, we can be talking about the Superbowl right now, right? But we're talking about politics. You seem to care a lot about this candidate. Why do you care about this candidate? Why don't you? I mean, I do. I care about my candidate, right? But I'm just wondering like, but you see, you're seeing, I don't understand how you're seeing it. You're seeing it so wrong. You're missing the big point. So instead of trying to convince you that I'm seeing it wrong, let me just ask you, because I really genuinely want to understand, how do you see it? And you're going to answer that question, and I'm going to repeat back what's known as looping for understanding, proving that I'm listening. I'm going to repeat it back. And because you and I feel like we're actually sharing with each other, we're not going to change our mind about who we vote for. ([Time 0:43:20](https://share.snipd.com/snip/59b9e8d1-f5c5-465b-8397-d5e45c00fa78))