The Real Bottom Line: What Your Website is Costing You 🔗 **Source:** [The Real Bottom Line: What Your Website is Costing You](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YYMByKEJDE) > [!note]+ Document Notes > tags: [WordPress, Open Source, Digital Operations] > author: [MISSING] > source: [MISSING] > reference: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YYMByKEJDE] > date created: > > # 🏷️ Title: The Real Bottom Line: What Your Website is Costing You > <!-- deep-read:sections start --> ## 🧰 Action Inbox - [H1] Draft “opportunity cost” explainer for marketers — context/[00:17](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YYMByKEJDE&t=17) #articleseed - [H5] Build triad checklist (performance, security, scale) — context/[22:07](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YYMByKEJDE&t=1327) #xref - [H4] Compile TCO comparison one-pager for execs — context/[18:05](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YYMByKEJDE&t=1085) #share - [H3] Add WordPress vuln response stats to slide — context/[12:26](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YYMByKEJDE&t=746) #articleseed - [H6] Map “busy work” to automations backlog — context/[7:59](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YYMByKEJDE&t=479) #xref - [H8] Create “invisible costs” worksheet for teams — context/[23:46](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YYMByKEJDE&t=1426) #articleseed - [H2] Propose quarterly modernization cadence to OSPO — context/[10:27](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YYMByKEJDE&t=627) #addendum - [H7] Scope pilot for agentic workflow in WP — context/[25:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YYMByKEJDE&t=1530) #articleseed - [H5] Brief support on SEO impact of performance — context/[22:07](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YYMByKEJDE&t=1327) #share - [H4] Cross-link enterprise WordPress case studies — context/[14:41](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YYMByKEJDE&t=881) #xref ## 🧭 Table of Contents - [📝 Summary](#-summary) - [📖 Main Content](#-main-content) - [🗒️ Notes](#️-notes) - [📚 References](#-references) - [🗣️ Paraphrase](#️-paraphrase) - [📰 Newsletter](#-newsletter) - [✅ Action Items](#-action-items) - [🧪 Hypotheses](#-hypotheses) - [📊 Methodology](#-methodology) - [❓ Questions](#-questions) - [🔮 Future Research](#-future-research) - [💡 Implications](#-implications) - [🧠 Learning Styles Assessment](#-learning-styles-assessment) - [📊 Accessibility Assessment](#-accessibility-assessment) - [🌍 DEIB Assessment](#-deib-assessment) - [✅ Logical Validity](#-logical-validity) - [🛡️ DARVO Analysis](#-darvo-analysis) - [🎯 Conclusion](#-conclusion) ### 🔗 References - Include links cited in or relevant to the article. ## 📝 Summary - WP Engine hosts a webinar on website cost realism. - Speakers frame cost as missed opportunities and slow innovation. - Stakeholders include marketing, IT, and leadership teams. - Risks include legacy lock-in, patch lag, and poor performance. - Bottom line: modernize incrementally on flexible, scalable stacks. ## 📖 Main Content - Cost includes explicit spend and lost opportunities. See [H1] ([00:17](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YYMByKEJDE&t=17)). - Incremental modernization prevents permanent catch-up cycles. See [H2] ([10:27](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YYMByKEJDE&t=627)). - Open source and WordPress enable faster fixes and lower TCO. See [H3] and [H4] ([12:26](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YYMByKEJDE&t=746), [18:05](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YYMByKEJDE&t=1085)). - Marketing outcomes depend on performance, security, and scale. See [H5] ([22:07](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YYMByKEJDE&t=1327)). - Automating routine ops returns time to higher-value work. See [H6] ([7:59](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YYMByKEJDE&t=479)). - Teams now explore AI agents, not only chat widgets. See [H7] ([25:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YYMByKEJDE&t=1530)). - Many costs remain invisible without proper accounting. See [H8] ([23:46](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YYMByKEJDE&t=1426)). - WordPress security model details: community triage and responsible disclosure (see official docs). [(WordPress Security)](https://wordpress.org/about/security/) ### 🗒️ Notes #### ⏱️ [00:17](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YYMByKEJDE&t=17) Framing cost beyond spend ### [H1] Opportunity cost increases on legacy platforms > [!quote] [The Real Bottom Line](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YYMByKEJDE) by an unnamed author via an unnamed author. Published [MISSING]. Accessed . > “what it's costing you not to evolve.” Lag blocks innovation and market timing. Quantify missed campaigns and feature delays. [view highlight](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YYMByKEJDE&t=17) #articleseed #xref ID:rw_youtube_001 #### ⏱️ [10:27](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YYMByKEJDE&t=627) Avoid periodic big-bang upgrades ### [H2] Incremental modernization beats large periodic overhauls > [!quote] [The Real Bottom Line](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YYMByKEJDE) > “organizations should not wait.” Ship smaller steps on a cadence. Reduce risk and sustain momentum. [view highlight](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YYMByKEJDE&t=627) #addendum ID:rw_youtube_002 #### ⏱️ [12:26](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YYMByKEJDE&t=746) Open source response dynamics ### [H3] Open source speeds patches through community urgency > [!quote] [The Real Bottom Line](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YYMByKEJDE) > “patches are released within hours or… a day or two.” Community velocity shortens exposure windows. Track mean time to patch. [view highlight](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YYMByKEJDE&t=746) #articleseed ID:rw_youtube_003 #### ⏱️ [18:05](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YYMByKEJDE&t=1085) WordPress cost comparisons ### [H4] WordPress reduces total cost of ownership > [!quote] [The Real Bottom Line](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YYMByKEJDE) > “WordPress was coming in about 20% lower…” Lower licensing, faster builds, broader talent pools reduce TCO. [view highlight](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YYMByKEJDE&t=1085) #share #xref ID:rw_youtube_004 #### ⏱️ [22:07](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YYMByKEJDE&t=1327) Marketing critical triad ### [H5] Performance, security, scalability drive marketing outcomes > [!quote] [The Real Bottom Line](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YYMByKEJDE) > “performance, security, and scalability” SEO, conversions, and trust depend on this triad. Align KPIs accordingly. [view highlight](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YYMByKEJDE&t=1327) #xref #articleseed ID:rw_youtube_005 #### ⏱️ [7:59](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YYMByKEJDE&t=479) Time as the scarce resource ### [H6] Automation returns time to IT teams > [!quote] [The Real Bottom Line](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YYMByKEJDE) > “when you give people time back in their day, they can do better work” Automate backups, updates, and scaling to refocus staff. [view highlight](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YYMByKEJDE&t=479) #xref ID:rw_youtube_006 #### ⏱️ [25:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YYMByKEJDE&t=1530) Beyond chat widgets ### [H7] AI interest shifts toward agentic workflows > [!quote] [The Real Bottom Line](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YYMByKEJDE) > “automation with… decision-making logic in between.” Design agents for high-volume editorial and ops flows. [view highlight](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YYMByKEJDE&t=1530) #articleseed ID:rw_youtube_007 #### ⏱️ [23:46](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YYMByKEJDE&t=1426) Seeing the full bill ### [H8] Managed WordPress reduces invisible infrastructure costs > [!quote] [The Real Bottom Line](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YYMByKEJDE) > “between 60% and 70% of digital infrastructure costs are invisible.” Account for maintenance, incidents, and slow funnels. [view highlight](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YYMByKEJDE&t=1426) #articleseed ID:rw_youtube_008 ## 📚 References - Webinar: The Real Bottom Line (WP Engine) — video and transcript. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YYMByKEJDE - WordPress Security Team process. https://wordpress.org/about/security/ - WP Engine events. https://wpengine.com/events/ - Americaneagle.com overview. https://www.americaneagle.com/ ## 🗣️ Paraphrase - The speakers argue that website cost includes missed opportunities. They recommend iterative modernization and managed platforms. - They highlight WordPress economics, community patch speed, and AI agents. They stress performance, security, and scalability for growth. ## 📰 Newsletter - Today’s webinar reframes “website cost” as opportunity loss. - Teams win by iterating fast and cutting busy work. - WordPress continues to lower TCO and speed delivery. - Start with the triad: performance, security, scale. - Peek the recording and plan your next quarter. - Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YYMByKEJDE - Events: https://wpengine.com/events/ - Security model: https://wordpress.org/about/security/ ## ✅ Action Items #### DevRel - Publish “Invisible Costs in WordPress Ops” post with [H8] data. - Record a 10-minute triad checklist walkthrough ([H5]). - Ship code examples for WP automation scripts ([H6]). - Build a funnel for modernization case studies ([H4]). - Moderate a Q&A on incremental upgrades ([H2]). #### OSPO - Propose quarterly modernization RFCs across estates ([H2]). - Define WordPress vuln response playbook referencing upstream docs ([H3]). - Track TCO vs. proprietary baselines with shared metrics ([H4]). - Set SLAs for performance budgets and incident review ([H5]). #### Community - Run maintainer clinic on automation backlogs ([H6]). - Host panel on agentic workflows in CMS ([H7]). - Share budget templates for “invisible costs” ([H8]). #### WordPress - Core: promote secure-by-default guidance in docs. - Core Performance: publish triad KPIs and dashboards. - Core AI: pilot safe agent actions with audit logs. - **Core Program Team:** align release notes with ops checklists. - Playground: create modernization lab scenarios. - Training: ship lesson on incremental refactors in blocks. - Marketing: campaign on “opportunity cost” with case data. - Support: collect perf and security issue heatmaps. - Documentation: example-first patterns for automation tasks. - Accessibility: include perf-related A11y checks in audits. - Meta: reliability SLOs for .org APIs used by builders. - Hosting: cross-host triad checks and shared telemetry. - Tide: reflect perf and security signals transparently. - Plugins: encourage provenance and rapid patch pipelines. - Themes: codify perf budgets in review criteria. #### The WPOCC - Fund microgrants for modernization sprints. - Offer governance clinics on performance and security ownership. - Publish matched grant experiments for triad improvements. ### FAIR - Define provenance and signature checks for AI agents. - Publish anti-capture covenants for platform dependencies. - Ship reusable charters and scorecards for TCO governance. ## 🧪 Hypotheses - Teams adopting quarterly refactors ship features faster. - WordPress sites on managed hosts cut incidents by half. - Automating backups and patches reduces MTTR significantly. - Agentic workflows cut editorial cycle time by 30%. - Perf, security, and scale KPIs correlate with conversions. ### 📊 Methodology - Use difference-in-differences across similar properties. - Capture baseline MTTR, TTR, deploy frequency, and TCO. - Run A/B on agentic vs. manual editorial flows. - Track Core Web Vitals against conversion and SEO changes. ### ❓ Questions - Where do “invisible costs” hide in our org? - Which manual tasks qualify for fast automation? - What cadence works for safe incremental modernization? - Which KPIs best reflect the triad’s business impact? - Where can AI agents add real leverage today? ### 🔮 Future Research - Benchmark enterprise WP TCO vs. licensed DXP stacks. - Study vuln patch lead time across ecosystems. - Evaluate agent safety and auditability in CMS ops. - Model opportunity cost from delayed campaigns. ### 💡 Implications - Budget for modernization, not only maintenance. - Align marketing and IT on triad KPIs. - Prefer managed WordPress to reduce invisible costs. - Pilot AI agents with safeguards and rollbacks. - Publish transparent ROI dashboards for leadership. ### 🧠 Learning Styles Assessment - Reading level estimate: Flesch–Kincaid Grade ≈ 9–10. #### 👀 Visual learners - Present: slides and triad framing. - Improve: architecture diagrams and flowcharts. #### 🔊 Aural learners - Present: recorded webinar. - Improve: 3-minute audio summary. #### 🗣️ Verbal learners - Present: definitions of TCO and triad. - Improve: glossary and analogies. #### 🧩 Kinesthetic learners - Present: none. - Improve: hands-on labs for automation tasks. #### 🧠 Logical learners - Present: causal framing on opportunity cost. - Improve: decision trees and error budgets. #### 🧑‍🤝‍🧑 Social learners - Present: live Q&A. - Improve: cohort clinics and peer reviews. #### 🧘‍♀️ Solitary learners - Present: recording for reflection. - Improve: self-check worksheets. #### 🌿 Naturalistic learners - Present: limited. - Improve: sustainability metrics for infra choices. ### 📊 Accessibility Assessment #### Screen reader semantics - Present: standard headings in landing pages. - Improve: ARIA labels for interactive components. #### Keyboard navigation - Present: basic focus states. - Improve: skip links and consistent order. #### Contrast and readability - Present: compliant text in examples. - Improve: enforce 4.5:1 and spacing checks. #### Text resizing and reflow - Present: responsive layouts. - Improve: 200% zoom testing and motion prefs. #### Media and captions - Present: recorded webinar with captions. - Improve: audio descriptions and downloads. #### Forms and interactions - Present: basic labels. - Improve: inline validation and target sizes. #### Standards reference - Map to WCAG 2.2 AA criteria. ### 🌍 DEIB Assessment #### Cultural breadth - Present: US/UK enterprise examples. - Improve: more regional case studies. #### Inclusive language - Present: jargon kept minimal. - Improve: add plain-language summaries. #### Neurodiversity support - Present: structured flow. - Improve: icon+text labels and predictable patterns. #### Representation - Present: cross-org panelists. - Improve: broader industry voices. #### Psychological safety - Present: respectful tone. - Improve: published Q&A guidelines and escalation paths. ### ✅ Logical Validity #### Strong reasoning - Causal link between performance and conversions is valid ([H5]). Cite known SEO impacts. - Inductive claim that open source patches faster is plausible ([H3]). Supports with process docs. - Opportunity cost framing is sound economics ([H1]). Encourage measurement. #### Fallacies - Risk of hasty generalization on “20% lower” ([H4]). Scope it to cited study. - Potential survivorship bias in case anecdotes. Add counterexamples and limits. #### Tone of voice - Practical and advisory. Minimal hype. Empirical framing dominates. ### 🛡️ DARVO Analysis - No denial, attack, or reversal patterns observed. - Panel maintains constructive posture throughout. ## 🎯 Conclusion - Treat website cost as capability loss, not only invoices. - Modernize incrementally, automate toil, and measure the triad. - Managed WordPress reduces invisible burdens and speeds outcomes. - Pilot AI agents where decision logic adds leverage. ### 🔗 References - Include links cited in or relevant to the article. ## 🔖 Zettel Candidates - Opportunity cost increases on legacy platforms — Cost framing helps prioritize change. [00:17](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YYMByKEJDE&t=17) - Incremental modernization beats periodic overhauls — Cadence reduces risk and waste. [10:27](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YYMByKEJDE&t=627) - Open source speeds patches through community urgency — Community MTTP matters. [12:26](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YYMByKEJDE&t=746) - WordPress reduces total cost of ownership — Talent availability and speed help. [18:05](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YYMByKEJDE&t=1085) - Performance, security, scalability drive marketing outcomes — Triad ties to revenue. [22:07](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YYMByKEJDE&t=1327) - Automation returns time to IT teams — Toil reduction compounds. [7:59](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YYMByKEJDE&t=479) - AI interest shifts toward agentic workflows — Move beyond chat to actions. [25:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YYMByKEJDE&t=1530) **Tag Coverage — #articleseed: 5 • #xref: 3 • #share: 2 • #addendum: 1 • #aphorisms: 0 • #bmf: 0** ## 🧱 Refactor Appendix (append after 🎯 Conclusion) ### 📚 Literature Split Pad - Purpose: Stage Konik CEE units that become per-source Literature notes. - Split level: **H3**. - Include verbatim quotes under 25 words and a [view highlight] link. ### [H1] Opportunity cost increases on legacy platforms > [!quote] [The Real Bottom Line](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YYMByKEJDE) by an unnamed author via an unnamed author. Published [MISSING]. Accessed . > “what it's costing you not to evolve.” Two lines: quantify missed campaigns and features. Attach revenue impact. [view highlight](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YYMByKEJDE&t=17) #xref #articleseed ID:rw_youtube_L1 ### [H2] Incremental modernization beats periodic overhauls > [!quote] [The Real Bottom Line](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YYMByKEJDE) > “organizations should not wait.” Two lines: set quarterly refactor rhythm. Limit change failure rate. [view highlight](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YYMByKEJDE&t=627) #xref ID:rw_youtube_L2 --- ### 🔖 Atomic Split Pad (Zettel Candidates) - Purpose: Promote reusable claims into Atomic notes. - Split level: **H4**. - Each item: one idea, present tense, specific, testable. #### [Z1] Opportunity cost increases on legacy platforms - Measure lost revenue from delays. - Pointer: [00:17](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YYMByKEJDE&t=17) - Links: [[TCO]] [[Modernization-Cadence]] #### [Z2] Performance, security, scalability drive marketing outcomes - Triad correlates with SEO and conversions. - Pointer: [22:07](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YYMByKEJDE&t=1327) - Links: [[Core-Web-Vitals]] [[Security-Posture]] --- ### ✏️ Fleeting Queue (Extract by Selection) - Purpose: Capture quick actions or sparks for Fleeting notes. - Extraction: **Select one line** → “Refactor: Extract selection to new note (content only).” - Keep each line short and self-contained. - [F1] List our invisible cost categories — context/https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YYMByKEJDE #fleeting #inbox - [F2] Pick one agentic workflow to pilot — context/https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YYMByKEJDE #fleeting #inbox - [F3] Draft triad KPI dashboard — context/https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YYMByKEJDE #fleeting #inbox --- <!-- deep-read:sections end --> ## 📺 Video  --- # 📄 Full Transcript *Auto-generated from YouTube captions · timestamps roughly every 30 seconds · [watch on YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YYMByKEJDE)* **[00:00]** Awesome. Alrighty, everybody. We will be getting started today. Welcome to the real bottom line. What your website is costing you. I'm Erica Sense from WP Engine and today's conversation is about looking at your digital operations through a new lens. Not just what your website costs, but what it's costing you not to evolve. We'll explore the hidden costs live inside your uh your **[00:31]** infrastructure, how they impact innovation, and what the most forwardthinking teams are doing to build more predictable, scalable foundations. Just a quick couple of quick housekeeping. We are recording this and we will be sending it out uh after the webinar via email. So, check your inboxes for the recording. Feel free to use the Zoom chat at any time. time. Our team will answer as many questions as we can get through during the call. If we do not get to something, we will happily send you a response afterwards and then at the very end there will be a really **[01:02]** quick survey for your feedback at the end of the webinar that'll pop up that we'd love if you can fill out for us. So with that joining me are two leaders today who know this challenge of websites and uh the cost of operations and cost of innovation and opportunity cost of not innovating inside and out. Here we have James Hall, director of partnerships and sales at WP Engine. He is a leader who helps organizations modernize how they build and scale their **[01:33]** digital experiences. And then we are pleased to welcome Ellis Lameé, director of WordPress operations at americanagle.com, who works handson with clients every day to optimize performance, workflows, and long-term digital ROI. So with that, I will hand things over to you, James and Ellis. >> Thank you very much, Erica. Um, Ellis, good to be talking this one through you. This is this is quite the meaty topic, right? >> Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, it's great to be here this morning. Hey, everybody. Yeah, **[02:04]** good good to uh good to be online and and and speaking to you all and hopefully we can give you some useful insights and some good takeaways here. But as I say, like it's it's it's a big subject to break down, right? You think about it. You know, what is the the website costing you today? Um >> and I think that's because >> there's there's so many ways that you can think about that. So many facets. Um for some >> they'll be thinking about this at the start of a of a new project. Um they're on a they're on a CMS at the moment. Do they make that change? and they've got a whole raft of decisions that they're **[02:34]** making thereafter. And I guess there are others that are maybe a little bit further down that track. They might be quite happy with the CMS they've got. And it's more about the day-to-day costs, the the how do they manage their their infrastructure, self-host, manage platform, that type of thing. And so a different set of questions and to ask about that moment in time and and thinking about frameworks, etc. But I guess really for us today we you know a sensible flow probably is to start at that example of someone on a legacy platform. No doubt and that's that's a **[03:05]** conversation you've had multiple times over the years. How how do you help uh businesses tackle that kind of conversation where it's very much like a hey do we stick or or do we twist? And when you think about it in the lens of opportunity um and and cost how how do you help them through that narrative? >> Yeah it's that's a great question. It's big, it's a definitely a big topic, you know. So, just for a little bit bit of background for our uh for our listeners, everyone joined in this morning. I uh so I've spent about the last 10 years at americanagle.com talking to all kinds of **[03:37]** different organizations and companies about essentially their website builds, you know, and that can be everything from a marketing brochure site to really robust dynamic applications that, you know, people are logging into like portals to, you know, do various tasks and and and things like that. And so I I've I've seen a lot of different kinds of scenarios and I've talked to a lot of a lot of organizations that like you like you point out James are really on some some legacy uh infrastructure some legacy technology and they're basically looking to modernize uh and you know **[04:09]** it's interesting because I think I I think I kind of tend to break this topic down into sort of different layers if you will right you've got you know if we're talking within the context of web apps and and websites you've got your actual application like let's suppose it's WordPress but then you've got the infrastructure that it needs to run on. So I think of it kind of like the engine and then the fuel that runs the engine, right? And I think that there's different pathways we can explore this topic through because speaking from the **[04:41]** application development side uh you know I've worked with a lot of organizations that they've got real factors uh they've got tight timelines or I should say urgent deadlines uh they've got a lot of different features and functionality that they need to develop and build to tailor to their audiences but also perhaps their internal stakeholders and their business requirements. Um, and the way that you approach developing those things can very much be a uh sort of quick consumable style play or it can be like **[05:13]** a longer term more thoughtful investment style play, right? where it's it's just the classic. Do you want something fast and cheap and in a hurry so it kind of just gets the bare minimum job done or are you looking to build something that is much more foundationally integral so that it can stand the test of time and you can iterate on it over the long haul. You know those are very different scenarios obviously very different budgets. Um and then going right along with that as an equally important consideration is the infrastructure that runs it because you have essentially the **[05:44]** same set of decisions there. Are you looking for something that is just quick cheap or are you looking for something that is uh a much more like managed service something that brings more capability to the table and allows you to scale those applications. So there's a lot it's a very wide equation and there's a lot to consider in there. >> And I can imagine most people are saying yes all of that please. >> Exactly. Yes. Right. Yeah. >> I like everything you said there. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. It's all Yeah. Go ahead. **[06:15]** >> But but also there's there's that thing of like saying well >> maybe we just stay with what we're doing and how do you help them just to decide actually there is there's there's an opportunity cost to that factor as well if you if you just stay put. >> Yeah it's a great question. I mean so much. It's funny because when I went when I got into very early in my career when I got into uh implementing technology for companies I thought it was just going to be every day immersed in code and playing with the technology and there is to be fair a lot of that but what there is also a lot of is **[06:46]** people and processes and understanding how they work right and so to answer your question James of like how do we how do we balance that so much of modernizing systems has to do first with understanding what were the decisions that went into the original solution? Like why is that legacy platform or solution working the way it is today? And and it's and it's fascinating because it's oftent times a combination of factors. Um you know sometimes you find out that long long ago 10 15 **[07:16]** sometimes even longer than that uh many years ago um uh shortcut decisions were made then during the development of of the initial uh inception of the application and the organization just kind of adapted to it over time. And so you fast forward to a future point like 10 years later and there's actually not a lot of institutional knowledge around like how did we get here? And so you have to kind of work backwards a little bit. And then from there it's really an exploration of how does the organization want to work? How can we build **[07:48]** efficiencies? How can we basically give people time back in their day? So an example of this would be, you know, I speak with a lot of IT professionals who have a lot of regular ongoing sort of maintenance style tasks to keep a lot of their hosting infrastructure healthy and and running optimally. and they're doing a lot of frankly like busy work, you know, they're taking manual backups. They're updating Abuntu, you know, things like that. They're trying to scale resources because they're watching **[08:18]** uh traffic dashboards to see if their application's going to spike. And ultimately, this is stuff that can be uh better implemented to a kind of be put on autopilot, but with some controls and parameters in there. And ultimately, when you give people time back in their day, they can do better work for their organization. Yeah, absolutely. And we had one particular customer who was on a legacy system far longer than they wanted to be. Um, and we were boughting them over a number of years and it was just like, **[08:48]** no, we can't do it because we just got to stick with what we got. It's it's too mission critical for us to try and think about moving. And eventually when they did move, it was because they decided that the risk factor had switched that actually it was too much risk to stay where they were and they were going to get left behind as a business. And this is one of the biggest, you know, organizations over here in the UK. Everyone would would know who they are. And eventually they they they made that decision because they said, "Look, we need to be able to move forward with the times. Like we need to take advantage of things like AI and all these types of things that we just can't do on a legacy **[09:20]** system where there are fewer and fewer people who know how to operate this thing. >> Um, and we're tied to those things." So, >> so that was why they moved ultimately. Um, that was one of their, you know, you when you think about the cost of a website, that was an operate, you know, an opportunity cost for them. So let's assume that sorry carry on. >> I was going to say you know an interesting an interesting aspect of that scenario you just spoke about is who whomever that organization is one they're definitely not the only one out there in the world facing that exact same dilemma and and and uh objective. **[09:50]** But you know it just kind of what's fascinating to me about that is at a time where they are ultimately wanting to accelerate into the future they are first having to play catch-up a little bit right and that you know and so that's a pattern that I think needs to kind of be broken a little bit where you know as technologists if we're always kind of pushing on innovation and trying to get into the future of it uh when we're realizing that we're already kind of behind the game then then that ultimately we're always going to be in that hamster wheel kind playing **[10:20]** catch-up. So, um I don't know. I just kind of wanted to mention that because I think that that that just lends itself to consistent iteration. Like don't like organizations should not wait for large swaths of time to go by before they decide to to advance their tech stacks. I think doing it in small incremental steps. Um time goes on is probably the more fruitful way to approach it. >> Yeah. And which is probably brings on to like that first decision in terms of right, you're going to make you're going to make a move. um **[10:50]** >> are you going to go proprietary or are you going to look at something like open source? Um >> what how do you help clients through that that decision because that's something you offer both parts of that equation at american.com. So how do you help them through that? >> Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. We work with a lot of different platforms, a lot of licensed platforms like Ciphinity, Keno, Sycore, but then obviously on the open source side where we've got a phenomenal WordPress practice. We do a little bit of Drupal as well. Um and I think way back in the day we might have done a jumla site or two but uh right yeah **[11:23]** blast from the past. Uh at any rate yeah these are fascinating topics because you know one of the things I uh encounter in conversations with organizations uh when we're talking about what technologies should be used for their kind of future state and what we're going to build with. when whenever we're talking about WordPress and it comes up uh a a common topic that arises is people will say like well isn't WordPress insecure you know how do we how do we deal with that and I think that's a fascinating subject because obviously you can look at it one **[11:55]** way where yes it's open source all the code's out there uh anyone can download it and play with it for free so you know in this big world we live in you got bad actors people up to no good they can get their hands on the code and fiddle around with it and uh learn how to exploit it but You also have this beautiful effect on the very opposite side of the spectrum where there are more far more people who are not bad actors who are looking to collaborate and contribute and grow the platform. And and my observation throughout the last 10 years has been that when **[12:26]** WordPress vulnerabilities are discovered, whether it be in core or it be in a plugin or a theme or something like that, the community just absolutely sprints to the solution and oftentimes patches are released within hours or, you know, a day or two. You know, I've on the on the flip side of the coin, I've I've worked with also licensed platforms where vulnerabilities are disclosed. they're known. But there is a much slower pathway to a resolution because ultimately you're talking about an organization having to probably pull **[12:58]** development resources off of primary product development pipelines to go and you know remediate vulnerabilities and uh that's a tough business decision. So um you know I think there's a lot of potential with open source uh in terms of lowering cost of ownership because you don't have these elongated timelines and risks that do prevent present themselves are ultimately mitigated by an entire community not just not just um a company you know >> I totally agree and I think that uh **[13:31]** we've we've seen people particularly in the enterprise space over the years start to use WordPress um for smaller projects and marketing teams saying like hey I need speed I need agility um to get this project to market and they've got this big legacy system and that's where we started to see the rise of WordPress use amongst the the enterprise and the upper mid market space um but we've seen that now move being more absorbed across larger and more critical workloads over the years **[14:04]** you know sometimes hybrid situations headless situations. Um but in more say it's just a case of sort of um secondary CMS and sort of integrating those things. And it could be a case of saying that hey we got this legacy thing over here that's going to run our core our core systems or we're going to reduce what those core systems are down to something that's much more manageable for us for today. And this talks about what you were saying about earlier, Ellis, is like always be iterating, always try and move forward and then try and think about, okay, how can I then start to utilize more of these composable solutions in order to try and **[14:35]** stay ahead, test new markets, um, you know, get new products out to out the door quicker, um, ultimately. And, and we we've seen that rise and we we've recently done a study, we've done a few of these over the years, but most recently, we published it a couple of months back. It had about 1,700 respondents to that uh, across various different geos. And that was one of the the things that came out of it was just still this constant theme and this rise of uh of WordPress being used in that space for for those types of reasons ultimately. >> Um >> and and obviously it has a a lower entry **[15:06]** cost rate. Um how do you see that from your side? Um you know this is all about cost ultimately and you know we know licensing is a big thing of that. >> Yeah absolutely. I mean, yeah, I guess, you know, kind of looking at that through the lens of like cost of ownership where you're ultimately talking about time, right? Because time is valuable. There's a classic phrase, time is money. >> Um, I was talking to a uh client the other day who they have a legacy system. And uh, believe it or not, their marketing team whenever they need to make an update uh content update, **[15:37]** they're working with Markdown. They're writing markdown and then having to deploy it through Git. And uh it's painfully slow for them because one they need their IT the marketing team is dependent on the IT team to run these git deployments but also to help them with formatting markdown correctly and then getting things back online. So what it boils down to is when they wanted to create or edit like just say a simple page on their website it was oftentimes a week and a half to two week long process. when you factor in the communication and back and forth between **[16:08]** different groups who all kind of have their role in making their their legacy digital solution just functional on a basic level. And so for them there's just this huge it just felt like this huge lag and time waste because the marketing team would want to move very very quickly right when they see a marketing opportunity they want to jump on it they don't want to yeah have to wait right but then the IT team obviously has far more to worry about than just the public facing marketing website they've got all kinds of other systems to >> to administrate and so you know you can **[16:38]** see how all this just causes friction within an organization and meanwhile opportunity is just sort of being lost and squandered. So I I would say that Tetsa the markdown example is a little extreme. That was kind of a first where I encountered that. But I see the same sort of scenario and effect play out time and time again. Um and so you know I guess kind of shifting now to like how do you improve these things? You know you look at things like WordPress and and and within that realm you've got a lot of different optionality in terms of how you approach the build, right? I **[17:09]** think on more of the kind of quick fast iteration side, you have a lot of great page building applications out there. Elementor, Divvy, uh, BeaverBuilder, you know, I think those are some of the top ones obviously, but there's there's there's several more. Um, and then you've also got, you know, Gutenberg, the the block editor that is has been iterated on for, yeah, I think what is it four or five years now? Um, and it's advancing, you know, month by month. um you know that's a much more I think integral way to approach your build **[17:40]** because you're building ultimately a design system that's a little more um follows like best practice in terms of performance uh development style and so on. Um but uh yeah there's a lot of different ways you can approach building a website in order to you know make things more efficient. >> Absolutely. Um I think when we when we look back at that study that we did um in terms of sort of just broad brush numbers like most of people were citing that um typically WordPress was coming in about 20% lower than proprietary **[18:11]** systems like site ccore and broco um and even up to 30% for the likes of Drupal. I think it does come down to a couple of things. Obviously you got the licensing fee in there. um he talked about developer time and so forth that you know WordPress has such a broad um community of of of uh agencies and developers as a whole that you can get that that project done quicker um and you can call upon uh expertise much easier and there's more flexible infrastructure options as well and I think those factors all all come into into that piece um ultimately **[18:43]** >> um and and you you mentioned it earlier right in terms of what you do is trying to help people understand okay how do you get on to the at CMS and you're on that part of the journey, but it's also about okay, we need to help someone. They might be in a troubled situation in terms of like, hey, I am already on WordPress, but it's not working for me right now. Um, and and it's not always about the code, it's about the infrastructure. And how do you help advise around that type of part of the conversation from a partner's perspective? >> I uh I'm definitely of the mindset of, you know, measure twice, cut once sort **[19:15]** of thing, right? where where where better planning a more integral approach to development is always going to yield better results. And while it might be a little feel a little bit more costly upfront, uh it will absolutely be a cost savings long term, right? Because ultimately when you take sloppy shortcuts and you use quick tools that you know help you go to market faster but then come with things like performance issues and perhaps bugs um you you just sort of it's the classic like you take one step forward two steps **[19:46]** back. And so my approach to things is really to plan them uh uh just more authentically following best WordPress practices and then utilizing infrastructure like what WP Engine provides where you've got essentially scalable resources. So you're not you're not blocked into a specific number of CPUs, RAM, visitors and so on but instead your application can kind of eb and flow with the demand of your organization and your audience. uh and that way you can ensure things like high availability um and you can be online **[20:17]** you know when it matters most. So, I think to answer your question, like how do I handle this with organizations? I try to kind of see where they're at mentally with these things, you know, um it's not sometimes it takes a a pretty considerable mindset shift to just look at things a little bit differently. So, I I like to honestly get to know them a little bit first, kind of see where they're at with things. Um and then we can start to find small iterative ways to improve their improve their scenario. I think going back to actually that that open source topic a moment ago that is another uh great attribute of open **[20:48]** source is it allows organizations to kind of test the waters so to speak kind of start to make small strides towards a future state uh versus a license model where if you think about it uh you're going to make the yes or no decision that I'm going to get on board with this platform or not and then the next thing that happens is you have to pay a very large sum of money in order to get access to it and start utilizing it Right. But if you're undergoing a large shift in your organization, WordPress because it's free, there's a lot of additional free plugins within the **[21:19]** community and ecosystem, it allows you to test the waters, ease into it slowly. Uh, and there's ultimately a lower barrier for entry that doesn't come with an exorbitant cost. Um, so I think that that's really cool and I think it gives it provides a lot of organizations, especially at the enterprise with um, flexibility at the end of the day. You know when when you think about hosting um whether that's something you're doing inhouse because you said it earlier IT teams they think about you know they got all these other systems they got to manage and sometimes it's **[21:50]** like the easier decisions to say hey we'll take this on board as well we'll keep it within our farm and it's it's a wirefra site right it's just it's just this it's not that complicated whatever it may be compared to you know a big IT application um but you've got to have the three tenants of sort of performance security uh and scalability in mind and as a marketer, you want to make sure you've got control of that ultimately and you're and you're sort of asking the right questions to the IT team. Um, because there is there is a cost to you as a as a marketing team in terms of thinking about your growth if your performance isn't where it needs to be. **[22:21]** That's going to have an impact on your SEO ultimately or GEO in this new world. Um, and and security, right? they the your IT teams may be keeping it under their umbrella of the IT things that they look at from a security standpoint, but is that actually best practice for for WordPress? And is is going in one direction going to impact your performance as well if it's not um built with the with the two in mind and then obviously scalability as well. You want those campaigns to be able to work seamlessly as and when they land, etc. Um and so you have to think about that. And we we actually had one customer, it **[22:53]** was it was a global FMCG. they they they they weren't self-hosting, but they weren't going to the full sort of managed um with a specialist, a WordPress specialist. They're in the middle of choosing a an outsource company to do it for them. And ultimately, they weren't getting those three things as high as they wanted to. The performance was being impacted um and and the scalability was limiting and it was costing them too much money. So coming back to the cost piece, they're sitting going actually you either look at your upfront uh contract value in terms of what you pay from a managed **[23:23]** host or you tend to offset that with people um in some shape or form whether it's people on your own staff or it is through uh a managed organization. And if it's not the right one, there could be a cost to that as well. So we we try and help people understand that because ultimately um what we recognize through the research that we've done is that somewhere between 60 and 70% of digital infrastructure costs are invisible. Um when you think about the fees, the vulnerabilities that you may get wrong, um the impact to your performance and **[23:54]** what that means to your lead generation side of the business, the general maintenance and overhead costs that come with it as well. uh all those things will add to that cost of your digital footprint and it's really something that that needs to be understood in in full ultimately and um we we try and help businesses through that decision-m process um ultimately >> um one of the things we're seeing and I'd love to know how you're seeing it from your perspective as well is when we think about AI and you know the the the report that we saw um said that more **[24:26]** people are looking for platforms that have AI automation security optimization built into these platforms and they're becoming a top priority. Um, is that something that's echoed on your side too? >> Yeah, actually quite a bit. Um, the topic of AI right now is coming up in uh in kind of two I guess two two primary ways. I guess what I'll say is on the simpler side, air quotes, right? um yeah >> where I'll be asked by a lot of organizations they'll say we want to get AI into our public facing you know **[24:58]** website applications and what they ultimately are kind of alluding to is that they want a sort of like chat gpt llm chat type interface on their site where a user can interact with it ask an open-ended question or perhaps just dump a thought process on there and then get some real good you know tailored feedback back from the LLM. So we've had that request a lot. We've got some cool things in the works for uh implementing things like that. Uh but then on sort of I guess the opposite on the more complex **[25:29]** side um organizations are starting to approach us about much more like agentic workflows where we're talking about not necessarily just automation kind of pushing data from you know point A to point B but automation with essentially like decision-making logic in between. Um, and so that is uh that is definitely coming up more and more and more as as time goes on. Um, it's pretty cool. It's really exciting. It's really exciting time to be uh experimenting with AI and WordPress and and and website **[25:59]** applications. >> Me, that's that's like an interesting sort of closing thought because what you're talking about there is optimizing for growth, right? >> And what you're not talking about there is spending time reacting to um your day-to-day issues and things like that. Um, right. And I think that is a really good lens to be thinking about, you know, the cost of your website. When you when you think about you, your team, this is if you're a marketer, for example, or an IT person. If you're spending too much time trying to react to the challenges you have today, and **[26:31]** you're not really thinking about how you're optimizing for growth, if you haven't got those nimble agile systems in place that allow you to even operate that way, that is a huge opportunity cost ultimately. And um and I think that's a good way to to for people to start thinking about about this topic um and analyzing where they are in their journey. >> Um >> so Eric, yeah, this has been fantastic. I've I've enjoyed riffing with you, talking about this stuff. Um we could go on for for probably a good hour or so, but it was probably sensible to start bringing Erica back in now. **[27:02]** >> Sounds good. Yeah, it was a great chat. >> Awesome. Thank you both. This has been fantastic. Um and thank you to everybody who has joined us today. We know you are very likely looking for more information on this subject. Uh we have two QR codes here uh that that really take uh WP Engine and American Eagle.com's looks at these. Um so take a look at the white papers that are linked. Um we'll make sure we drop those in chat before we roll. Otherwise, thank you Ellis, thank you James, and thank you to everyone **[27:33]** here. We really appreciate your time today. And please go to wpen.com/events to check out what else we've got coming. Otherwise, we will share this recording with you out via email after the event. And have a great day everybody. Thank you. >> Thanks everyone. Take care.