The Science of Lasting Love With Dr. Sue Johnson  ## Metadata - Author: [[The Knowledge Project]] - Full Title: The Science of Lasting Love With Dr. Sue Johnson - Category: #podcasts - URL: https://share.snipd.com/episode/dda5b984-0eb3-4076-831f-14bc5807f2e2 ## Document Notes ## Highlights - **Criticism Reveals Hidden Attachment Needs** - Criticism is often a disguised cry for help rooted in feeling alone or ignored. - Emotional responsiveness — tuning in and allowing feelings — defuses that cry and restores connection. Transcript: Shane Parrish The first idea is around criticism. When you or anyone in your life that you deeply care about is passive-aggressive or criticizing or complaining or demanding, it's really a cry for help. We do this when we feel alone, when we feel like other people don't care about us, when we need attention and want other people to pay attention to us. This reminds me of something Esther Perel told me in episode 71, and she had this line that has stuck with me ever since, and she said, behind every criticism is a wish. Most people respond to this criticism, this escalation, passive aggressiveness by shutting down. If you grew up without having a secure relationship modeled for you, you just shut down because you think that's how you protect yourself. You shut your partner out. You shut everything out because you think that you can't get hurt. I don't know about you, but this is what I tend to do by default. I feel like I need to protect myself. Like nobody can hurt me if I just shut down. And when we shut down like this, when everyone in our life shuts down like this, what does it do? It sends danger cues to others. So if I shut down and I'm in a relationship, my partner now all of a sudden it's dangerous. If we have friends, it's the same thing. In the end, what we all want, we want someone to engage with us. And if we feel like they're not there when we reach for them, if we feel like they're missing, we tend to raise the stakes. We become passive aggressive. We become angry. We complain. We become anything we need to in order to get attention. And this, of course, makes others shut down more and shut us out, which just puts this loop into overdrive. Emotional responsiveness is the willingness to tune in emotionally and allow yourself to feel what they're feeling and do that safely. ([Time 0:01:16](https://share.snipd.com/snip/e0b1b3a1-aff9-4301-8c2e-16d56a99f790)) - **Childhood Attachment Builds A Relationship Map** - Early attachment experiences create a visceral template for adult relationships. - Secure childhood bonds make tuning in, vulnerability, and healthy intimacy easier as adults. Transcript: Shane Parrish I'm not sure. But Dr. Johnson argues that much of our relationships are modeled by others. If we were lucky, they were modeled in a way that works for us. If we were unlucky, they were modeled in a way that doesn't work for us. If you had a secure attachment style as a kid with your parents or they had a secure attachment style with each other, you're way more likely to be secure. You're less likely to shut down in these moments. You have a template in your head of how you expect to be treated and how you can respond and you can do this safely. And this can be learned as an adult. It's a journey that I'm on and many other people out there are on, but it takes a lot of effort. One of Sue's more controversial ideas from this episode is that we're meant to be monogamous. We had a lot of comments on this ([Time 0:03:37](https://share.snipd.com/snip/861fb358-1202-4a90-96a5-f4829f5699e4)) - **Respond To Small Bids, Not Predictions** - Notice and respond to bids for connection instead of staying in your head predicting moves. - Turn toward small bids (eye contact, smiles) to build attunement and intimacy. Transcript: Sue Johnson You're using. It's a bid. It's a bid. And people don't realize what they're doing. You know, I mean, I'm tuned into relationships, so I watch them all the time in airports and among my friends, and I'm tuning on a different level than most of them. I can't help it. You know, this is my job at this point, but people are making bids. And, you know, even watching people, I fly a lot, so even watching people on a plane, you know, you sit down next to somebody and you might make a comment and they don't look you in the eye. They turn their head away. And you immediately get that they're closed. They don't want to connect with you. And then you might make a little bid for a connection with somebody else and they turn towards you. They turn in their seat. They give you eye contact. They look at you. They smile. They make a comment. They respond to what you said. ([Time 0:12:52](https://share.snipd.com/snip/915b308d-91d9-44e3-81c4-c2525f29c819)) - **Demand–Withdraw Is An Attachment Dance** - Distressed couples fall into a demand-withdraw pattern driven by attachment panic. - The angry partner protests "Where are you?" while the other distances to self-protect. Transcript: Sue Johnson It's not that conscious. Or unsanciously? Yes. In distressed relationships, the most common pattern we see is one person is demanding and getting angry and criticizing and the other person is defending and distancing. And the way we understand the demanding is they can be talking about anything, okay? They can be talking about finances or sex or they can be talking about anything or how bad this other person is. They can be talking about anything. But if you listen to the emotion, you look at their face and we're pretty good at that right now. What they're really saying is, where are you? Where are you? Where are you? And if the other person doesn't respond, say louder they say i'll get you to respond to me where are you you're a bad partner oh that'll get your attention right but unfortunately not What i have to do to get your attention is threaten you and then you go with the threat and you say i don't want to talk right now and then or you you escalate you escalate. Shane Parrish You think I'm a bad partner. What about this thing that you did? Sue Johnson That's right. You fight back. You attack back. So we look at all these negative patterns in relationships and we feel we understand them at this point. And so we help the demanding, critical partner. We say, could you help me? You're talking to your partner about how you're disappointed in them and that you feel like this relationship is empty for you and you're expressing a lot of anger and frustration, But then you turned and you looked away and your eyes filled with tears. Could you help me? This is very painful for you. And the person says, well, of course it is. He's so distant. She goes back to attacking him. But we'll just stay with what we just said. We go into the emotional channel and we stay there. And in the end, the people come. We say, yes, you're very, there's something here that's very painful for you. And you're getting very angry and you push him to talk. And she says, yes, I push him. You push And if you don't push him, and if he won't talk, no matter how angry you get and how critical you get, then her face changes. And she goes back to what I saw the few moments before. She says, then I'm all by myself. Yes, you're all by yourself. And he doesn't care about me. And I'm not important to him. And I don't matter to him. And I'm by myself. And then she weeps. And that's the desperation under the anger. But you don't have, in this bonding situation, we desperately need the other person to respond to us. ([Time 0:20:33](https://share.snipd.com/snip/54053fd8-4faf-4e6b-b57c-c12f1ee37d00)) - **Use Emotional Requests, Not Accusations** - Name the emotion beneath criticism and ask for help: "Could you help me? I'm very hurt." - Stay in the emotional channel to invite connection rather than escalating blame. Transcript: Sue Johnson And so we help the demanding, critical partner. We say, could you help me? You're talking to your partner about how you're disappointed in them and that you feel like this relationship is empty for you and you're expressing a lot of anger and frustration, But then you turned and you looked away and your eyes filled with tears. Could you help me? This is very painful for you. And the person says, well, of course it is. He's so distant. She goes back to attacking him. But we'll just stay with what we just said. We go into the emotional channel and we stay there. And in the end, the people come. We say, yes, you're very, there's something here that's very painful for you. And you're getting very angry and you push him to talk. And she says, yes, I push him. You push And if you don't push him, and if he won't talk, no matter how angry you get and how critical you get, then her face changes. And she goes back to what I saw the few moments before. She says, then I'm all by myself. Yes, you're all by yourself. And he doesn't care about me. And I'm not important to him. And I don't matter to him. ([Time 0:21:45](https://share.snipd.com/snip/271640c9-fa19-45f6-a591-07679ac36f97)) - **Monogamy Fits Our Bonding Biology** - Attachment wiring favors stable, exclusive bonds; sex functions as bonding more than mere novelty. - Serial monogamy and hierarchical attachments match human biology and bonding needs. Transcript: Shane Parrish You said in one of your books that were actually meant to be monogamous. Sue Johnson Yes, and that's an interesting point of view, highly unpopular in many places in the world these days. I've been accused of being, oh, what was the last lot? Did you know that I'm a naive conservative Canadian? Sorry, I'm not conservative actually at all, if you knew me. I'm terribly liberal. I am Canadian. I'm very proud of it. And I really take objection to the word naive. Because I may be many things, but I'm not naive. I am very good at what I do. And I know an awful lot about what I do. So I'm not naive. But yeah, I was because this lady told me on a big listserv, which will be nameless, but basically she said, you know, your ideas about monogamy are disgusting. I said, oh, I'm sorry, but that's a very emotional word. So let's take the emotion out of it. I can give you six scientific arguments as to why we're wired for monogamy. Would you like to find me one science study that suggests that it's better for him? ([Time 0:28:09](https://share.snipd.com/snip/8e220536-3b55-409e-9717-5c8801de9fd9)) - **Choose Presence Over Problem-Solving** - Build trust by taking risks and expecting emotional presence, not solutions. - When a partner says "I don't know what to do, but I'm here," that presence repairs and deepens trust. Transcript: Sue Johnson You're constantly building trust. And how do you build trust? You take risks with each other. You show yourself you're open and accessible. And you take risks with each other. And when one of you takes a risk, the other one responds. And by respond, I don't always mean like, does something magical like the movies, okay? Like, that's not what I mean. You just stay emotionally present. Securely attached people know the power of emotional presence. You know, the parent who's helping a child in pain, the parent doesn't have the solution to the pain per se. Men, husbands always think they're going to problem solve and solve their wife's problems. They don't understand that usually their wife's looking for just them. They're the answer to her problem. She just wants their emotional presence. I shouldn't keep doing this gender thing. Sometimes it goes the other way, right? But, you know, it's the emotional presence that's key. So, for example, you might take a risk and share something with your partner and your partner doesn't know what to do with it, isn't quite sure how to respond. So I've seen people at the end of EFT turn to, I've seen a man who before would just shut down because he said, I don't know what to do with that, right? And he tells his partner, he says, I see that you're hurting and I don't really understand it, but I don't want you to be alone in it. I want to be with you and I don't know what to do. She bursts into tears. She says, you just did it. He said, what did I do? She said, you just came and met me. You just came and met me. That's what I need. You don't have to solve my problem. You don't have to create magic. You have to be with me. ([Time 0:33:37](https://share.snipd.com/snip/884842c3-a101-40ef-bec0-93ef619aab20)) - **Sex Is A Bonding Signal More Than Performance** - Sex is primarily a bonding behavior tied to feeling safe and desired, not mere novelty or release. - Secure couples report better, more frequent sex because connection fuels eroticism. Transcript: Sue Johnson Sex plays an important role. I think the tricky part is, I mean, sex can be different at different times. You know, sex can be many things at different times. Sex can be purely about the release of tension. Sex can be erotic play. Sex can, it can change in a relationship. There's flexibility. You can, you can, it can mean different things at different times, right? But in general, if you listen to people in happy, healthy relationships, they'll talk more about sex as a bonding activity. It's not just about release. It's not just about orgasm. It's not just about eroticism. Human beings make love face to face. It doesn't have to be face to face, but you get the idea. We make love face to face. And certainly there's a huge bonding element. It's not accident that at orgasm we're flooded with oxytocin, which is a bonding hormone, you know. And if you look at securely attached folks, they'll say, oh, well, sex is fun and it's about eroticism and it's about, you know, being pleasured physically and sensation. But it's also about being close to my partner. I like being close to my partner. The interesting thing about that one is the cliche out in the world is men only want an orgasm. Well, if that's true, you know, I mean, masturbation is a much more efficient path to that. And it's simpler and you don't have to deal with anybody else. Shane Parrish Isn't that kind of what pornography is teaching us there? Sue Johnson Yes. Basically, teaches us that. But if you listen to men, and I've listened to a lot of men, if you listen to men talk about in a more emotionally open level, what men talk about is not that different from what women talk About. Men, in the end, I can't tell you how many times this has happened, men will say, well, you know, I can give myself an orgasm if I really want an orgasm. What I want is to be desired. I want to be desired. And the most concrete way of feeling desired is for you to desire me to come close and for us to make love. I want to be desired. And, you know, our society is a bit insane about sex. I mean, my field's insane about sex. We have one discipline called sex therapy and another discipline called relationship couple therapy. How ridiculous is that? I mean, that's ridiculous. And what I'm talking about um actually attachment science helps us understand sex and relationships and for goodness sake you know we need to put those two things together it's ridiculous That sex therapists don't know anything about relationships that's ridiculous you know and it's ridiculous that relationship therapists don't learn anything about sex it's like Are you kidding me you know know, it's like, so, but sexuality is important. And for a secure couple, it's a bonding activity. And it's about closeness and connection, as well as about, you know, the release of tension or pleasurable sensation. The world out there tells us some very funny things about sex. One of the things I really object to that really annoys me because it's like misinformation as far as I'm concerned and it can hurt people is that people say things like, well, long term Relationships, you're bound to lose your sexual charge. Sex has a best before date. You know, familiarity is deadening and secure connection makes, you know, is the enemy of eroticism. And what you need to keep your sex life alive is novelty. You either need lots of strange positions or you need lots of sex toys or you need other people, you bring other people in. And this is a very popular point of view out there. All kinds of journalists are pushing it. All kinds of people are making money on books pushing it. And it annoys me. Not from any moral issue or any, not from any stance of coming from shoulds, okay? I don't have any issues around that, okay? It annoys me because it's not true. It annoys me because it's misinformation. It annoys me because it's not what I see and what I've experienced in all my years of working with couples. And Laumann's research basically says the people who have the best sex are the people who feel safe and connected with each other and who have exclusive relationships. And that makes sense to me. ([Time 0:46:28](https://share.snipd.com/snip/925c5be9-5057-471b-aa36-9495ab551409)) - **Rebuild Safety Before Seeking Novelty** - Prioritize safety to enable erotic play: feel the line is strong, belt in, then let go together. - Replace novelty-chasing with rebuilding secure trust to revive passion. Transcript: Sue Johnson And the zipline's strong and you're belted in and you feel good. Then you let go on the zipline. You go, whee! And it's exciting and thrilling and interesting. And you're not quite sure you're going to end up, but who cares because you're okay. That's secure attachment. I can let go and be with you. We can play. We can be open and erotic with each other. We can tell each other our fantasies. We can play as lovers. And then in the next minute, we can hold each other and be safe haven, secure base for each other, which is what a secure bond is, that's secure attachment. The other kind of sexuality is like, imagine how much you're likely to really let go and totally get engaged and absorbed and completely enjoy it if you notice just before you kick off That there's a crack in the line. Well, you might get a little thrill out of that. Oh my God, there's a crack in the line. Oh, wow. But in fact, you know, you're not really going to let go and enjoy the ride. That's how I see it. I mean, it's securely attached people report better sex. So sex is a way of connecting. It's a bonding behavior. ([Time 0:53:16](https://share.snipd.com/snip/630a9264-5673-4388-8b4a-02d0a00aa96b)) - **Affairs Are Often About Emotional Starvation** - Affairs usually stem from emotional deprivation, not primarily sexual desire or thrill-seeking. - A small responsive attention from another person can feel like sunlight after long emotional darkness. Transcript: Sue Johnson The myth out there in society, in the magazines, is that we have affairs because we're massively sexual beings and that one person can't possibly be enough for us and da-da right? So one way that attachment science is revolutionary, and one reason it was so unpopular for so long is because it is revolutionary. It challenges us, our thoughts, was that John Bowlby, the father of attachment theory, said, sex is not the most important motivation in human beings, and neither is aggression. Freud was wrong. The most important motivation in human beings and the one that carries the huge clout is the need for a connection with another human being yeah and so right there he he basically says There's something more important than sex actually you know we can get obsessed with it at certain points in our life but it's there's other motivations. And that really plays out because when I talk to people about why they have affairs, I would say in all my 35 years, and I supervise lots of therapists as well, in all my 35 years, I've maybe Heard one, two people who are a certain personality type, high risk taking, needs to climb Everest three times, drive fast cars, is obsessed with high stimulation, right? And let's not talk about what that's about, but it's a whole personality type. I've heard those guys say, oh, well, you know, I just had the affair because I'm just into different women and I just got to have this, I just got to have this, this adventure and I got to Like, right. Very, very avoidant people who don't trust people at all say things like, it wasn't an affair. I just had a one night stand. It's no big deal. That's just what I do. It was just sex. Okay. There's nothing. And there are some people who totally cut themselves off during sex, and it really is just a form of mutual masturbation, and they don't understand why their partner's upset with it. So there's different things here. But in general, the overwhelming thing is people do not have affairs because of sexuality or sexual frustration. They have affairs because they're emotionally disconnected and alone. They feel rejected or abandoned by their partner. They're getting in terrible fights. They feel alone and scared. They feel unloved, unwanted and helpless. And the secretary brings them a coffee and she smiles at them. And they suddenly notice how pretty she is. They've worked with her for three years but they suddenly notice she's terribly pretty and they notice that she seems to like them and when they take her for coffee she listens to them And she acts like they're the most important person in the world and their whole nervous system starts to respond it's like the sunshine they've been in the dark and there's the sunshine And they start to respond they're having a need fulfilled that's right and it's it's about deprivation not about you know the whole lust takes us over all the time and right that's just A big story Okay. And it's true of a few of us, but mostly it's not. That's a big story. And so people turn to other people because they can't get their attachment needs met with their partner. And that's the truth. And they're hungry for that connection. ([Time 1:09:58](https://share.snipd.com/snip/e3ac8ca9-511b-4194-97d6-4074286594ca)) - **Repair Affairs With Focused Emotional Work** - Healing an affair requires de-escalation, creating safety, then emotionally focused repair around the injury. - Tell your pain specifically and get a coherent narrative from the other to restore predictability and trust. Transcript: Shane Parrish Always or is that? Sue Johnson No, nothing is always in relationships. Shane Parrish What's the difference between relationships that heal from affairs and relationships? Sue Johnson Well, it's a lot of it. I think a lot of it has to do with the level of trust that you had, you know, in the relationship and how important the relationship is to you and how much you're willing to work at it. We have a whole thing about, we call it relationship injuries. They're not necessarily affairs. There can be other injuries in a relationship. Shane Parrish What are other examples? Sue Johnson Oh, I'm going for my chemotherapy the first day, and I say, you will be there, won't you? And you say, of course I'll be there. Don't be ridiculous, I'll be there. And then five minutes before I'm going, you say, listen, you'll be fine. I know your sister's going with you. You don't really need me there. I've got to be at this big meeting. And then when I come home, the extra bit is when I come home and I try and talk to you about that, you say, I don't know what you're talking about. You were fine. Weren't you fine? In other words, I dismiss it. We can't heal it. When I come to you to try and repair it, you don't tune into me. You just miss my need. That's an attachment injury. It won't go. People say things like time will heal that it will not. Your brain holds onto it. It's significant survival information. When you needed, your partner wasn't there. They're no longer safe. You can't count on them. Your brain will hold onto that. And the next time you have the opportunity to risk with that partner, you won't. You'll hold back. You'll keep them out. So these injuries redefine the relationship. And affairs can be like that. Shane Parrish Is that the beginning and the end when you stop reaching out? Or is that still salvageable at that point? Sue Johnson It's salvageable if you work on it and often you need help because you're lost at that point and we don't educate people about relationships. We teach them trigonometry in school, but heaven forbid we teach them about the most important thing of all, which is relationships. So people get lost and they start to protect themselves and it gets worse and worse. But if they come into therapy with us, people say, you know, can we heal this? I say, yes, you can heal this, but if you have to work at it, it's not going to be easy. You can heal it and we know how to do it. And we've done research study on it. We know how to do it and we know that the effects last three years down the road, right? But you have to be able to work on it. Healing an injury is a special kind of hold me tight conversation focused around the injury. You know, you have to go look at your negative dances that you get caught in, the demon dialogues. You have to understand how you got so distant from each other in the first place, how there wasn't safety and connection in the relationship. You have to be able to at least create some safety and balance in the relationship. You have to create some sort of security. That's the end of stage one of EFT. You de-escalate the negative patterns of disconnection and conflict in your relationship. You create a certain safety. And then you have to be able to go into risking and creating positive cycles of connection, which is bonding situations. ([Time 1:13:31](https://share.snipd.com/snip/7d2242ce-f81c-439e-8a8a-b53c44f478c3)) - **Don't Rebuild With A Bomb In The Basement** - Hiding major secrets creates a psychological 'bomb in the basement' that blocks true engagement. - Reveal toxic secrets thoughtfully; concealment consumes energy and ruins accessibility and responsiveness. Transcript: Sue Johnson Very hard because I think in images, and I always think of it like, you're holding this secret to your chest. You're careful. You're making sure you don't tell this secret. You're keeping this part of you out of the relationship. And that means that you're not fully engaged. And your partner's going to feel that. Deception and secrets are very toxic in love relationships. Accessibility, responsiveness, and engagement, A-R are the variables in research that predict the safety of a bond, any bond between any two people of any age, right? And accessibility is messed up by secrets know i'm hiding basically i'm hiding from you and i'm being careful around you and there's a part of me that i don't want you to know and i'm always Worried that you're going to know it and i'm that takes energy glucose going to your brain to hide yeah right and um i'm always trying to manage how you see me and what you see I'm sorry that I can dance with you and listen to emotional music and tune in and let myself be carried away in the interaction with you. Of course I can't. I'm holding this secret to my chest. It's between you and me. And people are afraid to speak secrets, but they don't see the toxicity that comes from keeping them and how they're between them and their partner. They really are. And in a relationship, I think I shared with you an image where a man once said to me, well, I don't want to tell my, I don't, I finished the affair. ([Time 1:22:52](https://share.snipd.com/snip/f697f615-45a4-41d1-8d22-f30a305b581c)) - **Seek Education And Ask, "What's Happening?"** - If your bond is eroding, start by learning: read, ask your partner "What's happening to us?" and seek relationship education. - Avoid passive avoidance; face the problem and get structured help before it becomes irreversible. Transcript: Sue Johnson With how do you understand where you're at? Yeah. And now you have to, the point here is I'm going to be very focused on my own work because, because, because I feel like that's what I know, right? So if you're seriously asking me that, I mean, first of all, you go and try to find out what's going on. And I'm biased. So the best way for you to do that is read Hold Me Tight. Hold Me Tight is selling as well now as it did when it first came out. It's generating all kinds of relationship programs for different kinds of couples. It's the result of years and years and years of research. You know, I don't think I'm being completely egotistical by saying there's nothing out there like it. I know there isn't, right? And that's because we've worked so hard to create it, right? So you have to understand, you have to be motivated enough to understand what's going on. If you find it so aversive, you don't even want to look at what's going on, then your relationship's just going to continue to unravel, right? And you wake up one day and say, I don't know who this person is, they're a stranger in my bed, or I don't want to be this person's partner. And you don't even know how you got there. But people are going and reading Hold Me tight they're going to relationship programs they're going we have i was talking to at coffee that we have a hold me tight online course now which We've just created and you know um i mean we have research on our hold me tight groups by the way we have research on everything we do we have two studies in our hold me tight groups and the Study are really good. So we're not the usual program that you see where it teaches you a few relationship skills and you pay a lot of money and you don't get anything out of it. We're not in that game. We make a difference to people. So you learn about relationships. You do a Hold Me Tight online course with your partner. You go to your partner, first of all, and say, what's happening to us? ([Time 1:29:16](https://share.snipd.com/snip/e20c161e-326e-4e34-b40d-828219143054)) - **Pick A Therapist Who Creates Safety** - Choose a therapist who makes you feel safe and explains their evidence base and outcomes. - Ask therapists about model, research, and measurable results before committing. Transcript: Sue Johnson Go find a therapist and ask you, this is the other thing, the public are not educated about therapy. Go find a therapist and say to the therapist, what model do you use? What is the research behind it? What are the outcomes? You give me something I can read about it, right? Don't just go to any couple therapists. The fact of the matter is 70 percent of mental health professionals in North America say they see couples now because the demand is huge. And most of those people have not been trained in couples therapy. I hate to tell you. Shane Parrish Fix online personal styling makes it easy. I just give my stylist my size, style, and budget preferences. I order boxes when I want and how I want. No subscription required. And he sends just for me pieces, plus outfit recommendations and styling tips. I keep what works and send back the rest. It's so easy. Make style easy. Get started today at stitchfix.com/Spotify. That's stitchfix.com/Spotify. How do you pick a couple's therapist aside from sort of like what techniques do you use and is it evidence-based? Like what are the other variables? Sue Johnson Well, you have to feel safe with that person. And I think that's a very key variable that people don't understand about therapy. ([Time 1:34:31](https://share.snipd.com/snip/a2a7668b-2260-4497-ac7f-4e7341acb85a)) - **Detachment Can Become Irreversible** - Emotional connection follows stages; long-term detachment can become irreversible once longing fades. - Detachment occurs when a partner no longer seeks them for comfort and the nervous system stops responding. Transcript: Sue Johnson Well, what bonding science says is there's different stages of the emotional connection in a relationship. And when disconnection hits and you don't feel safely connected to somebody, often you start to protest or you start to say, where are you? Where are you? If that doesn't work, you up the ante usually. You either up the ante or you start to space out because it's too painful, right? And if the spacing out or the upping the ante doesn't work for long enough, it becomes really painful and aversive and the relationship becomes a source of danger rather than a source Of safety and support. And then people have different thresholds, right? Some people can numb that out for a long time, right? Until some big crisis hits when it makes it obvious. Yeah, then they can't ignore it anymore. But retirement's one of those, by the way. But, you know, they can numb it out for a long time. But often it gets to the place where they can't numb it out anymore. And what I get they can't numb out is they're alone. They're alone in a relationship which drives people crazy. They're in a relationship, but we can't deal with that paradox, right? Our longings for connection are turned on. You're around all the time, but you're not emotionally available. It drives me crazy. It's a crazy-making situation. So then people tune into their emotions, and they realize they've numbed out years ago, and they've given up years ago. And actually, they're not willing to take any more risks. They're not willing to invest. They're not, they've left, they've detached. Shane Parrish What should they do? Sue Johnson Be honest about it. They've detached. Shane Parrish Can you reattach at that point or is it too far gone? Sue Johnson Well, this is an interesting question and it comes up with therapists and therapists never want to hear my answer. No. Shane Parrish You can't reattach. ([Time 1:38:25](https://share.snipd.com/snip/62508a15-5bdb-479c-bb44-8ad422f55966)) - **Commit To Work — Engagement Predicts Change** - If you're still invested, engage actively in evidence-based therapy like EFT and do the hard emotional work. - Engagement and willingness to work predict success more than initial distress level. Transcript: Sue Johnson It's not because you're bad or I'm bad or nobody has to be the bad guy here. Most of us are dancing a dance that we don't understand, that nobody's helped us understand. And we don't know how to move in the dance, particularly at key moments of vulnerability. We don't know how to do it. So we do it all wrong. That's right. So, you know, but if we love each other, interesting piece of research in EFT, there was one study that looked to predictors of success in EFT. And everyone I know, if you asked every couple therapist, including some researchers, what's the best predictor of where couples are at the end of couple therapy, they tell you how Distressed they are when they come in. That's not true of EFT. The research said, it doesn't matter how distressed you are when you come in, if you're still invested, if you're still willing to work, it matters how engaged you get in working on your Relationship. If you're willing to work on it and you seek out somebody who can really help you, a relationship consultant, because that's what an EFT therapist is, and you read, hold me tight, you Can work on your relationship. ([Time 1:45:27](https://share.snipd.com/snip/3421f49f-8bf6-4144-ac92-7299f9334c82)) - **"The Nothing" After Kids Leave** - A woman described her marriage as "the nothing" after children left, revealing how parenting masked distance. - Hold Me Tight education shifted her voice and ability to ask for needs within weeks. Transcript: Sue Johnson Nest is a really interesting one. And the divorce rates have gone up for that group. And it's interesting because the divorce is usually initiated by the woman, it seems. I think that's a very interesting one because as one of my people in the Hold Me Tight tapes that I show in Hold Me Tight groups said, lovely lady. I said, what is the dance that you and your husband are caught in? She said, I call it the nothing. I said, you call it the nothing? She said, yes, I call it the nothing. Because basically, we always had problems in our relationship. We could never really talk to each other very well. But we had good sex. And we loved our children. And we were wonderful parents. And we had this joy project called our children. And our children, we spent all time and energy in our children. And this was a connection for us. And then our last daughter went away to college, and we found that we had nothing. My husband had developed erectile dysfunction. Suddenly we had nothing. And so then I would try to talk to him about it, and I'm as fast as him and I'm not as clever as him and I don't have the words and he talks very fast and it overwhelms me. So I'd try to talk about it and it wouldn't work. And so I'd bang things around in the kitchen and he'd come upstairs from his office and he'd say to me, what's wrong? And I'd say, nothing, nothing. And he'd say, why would you never talk to me? And she'd say, no, no, really, it's nothing. And she said, and then he'd turn around and walk away from me. Listen, it's about separation. Walk away from me. And I'd say to myself, we have nothing. I'm alone. We have nothing. So I call our cycle and the place we're caught in, the nothing. I said, wow. You know, that's pretty amazing. And that lady shifts in just the Hold Me Tight educational program. ([Time 1:47:38](https://share.snipd.com/snip/08d6ed51-9586-477c-983b-20f4c5a22a88)) - **Make A Secure Parental Alliance** - Prioritize a parental alliance: support each other as parents rather than making children the relationship's primary bond. - Teaching kids relational health by example matters far more than lectures about relationships. Transcript: Sue Johnson Don't know about over. What I say to people is the very best thing you can do for your kids is create a safe parental alliance, is share with each other. Parenting is hard work, especially if you can do it well. Difficult to do it alone. Almost impossible to do if you're fighting with your partner. You're in a danger zone. So, you know, the best thing you can do for your kids is have a good relationship and have a relationship where you support each other as parents. That's the very best thing you can do. ([Time 1:56:18](https://share.snipd.com/snip/99637daf-80ef-44c4-93f4-c976acca6681)) - **Love Can Be Understood And Shaped** - There is a science of love and relationships that yields predictable, teachable interventions. - Understanding attachment logic lets you shape and repair relationships rather than treating love as random. Transcript: Sue Johnson Been talking for a long time. I know. Oh, no. I just want people to know that there is a science of love, that science has changed our world in so many ways. You know, there's a science of how to take care of your teeth. There's a science of, you know, almost everything these days, you know, there's a science of love and relationships too. And I want people to know it exists. And I want people to know the promise of it. And it's out there. But it's not something that anybody's making a huge amount of money from. So it's not marketed on front of the New York Times or in the magazines. And things that are marketed, big distractions like porn, the porn industry isn't interested in my message, you know, because I say that, you know, porn's just a trap. It's going down the rabbit hole. It's not going to meet your needs in the end. You know, it's, right, it's making somebody. So this isn't making, this isn't highly marketable from the point of view of capitalism. So it's a hard message to get out in some ways. One lady from the New York Times told me, I said, would you please tell me why you put this rubbish all over the New York Times about relationships, sensational rubbish? Could you please tell me why you don't think of putting all over your paper? We've cracked the code of love. We know how to do this now. We need to educate everybody about it. This is amazing. And she said, there's a long silence. And basically she said, well, it's not sensational enough. I said, are you joking? And then she said, well, people think it's just common sense and I said yeah it's like common sense like everyone understands gravity we understand it on the level of stuff falls down Nobody you know and but without understanding gravity where would we be we wouldn't understand any like are you kidding me? You, what I felt like saying was, it's because you have a lousy paper, but I didn't. I said, I said, I felt like saying it's because you're not community orientated, but I didn't. I just said, well, there you go. You know, like, I don't want to write this stupid article you want me to write because it's a waste of time. But you know, it's, people need to know you can shape your love relationships. Relationships make sense. There's a deep logic behind our emotions. This is about biology. Okay. There's a deep logic behind our emotions. There's a deep logic behind our needs. What you understand you can shape, you can shape relationships. ([Time 2:04:25](https://share.snipd.com/snip/18c5b877-3c66-4c14-b957-4d78f0ccef14))