The Solution to Agency Chaos - CourtneyR.dev's 2nd Brain

The Solution to Agency Chaos 🔗 **Source:** [The Solution to Agency Chaos](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dW1xBmEx2I0) > [!note]+ Document Notes > tags: [agency-management, entrepreneurship, client-relationships] > author: Agency Action Show > source: YouTube > reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dW1xBmEx2I0 > date created: 2024-12-28 14:30 > > # 🏷️ Title: The Solution to Agency Chaos >  ## 🧰 Action Inbox - [H1] Implement proactive client communication processes — prevent anxiety spirals #communication - [H2] Create internal training courses for contractors — standardize processes #operations - [H3] Build chaos buffer into project proposals — account for inevitable client issues #pricing ## 🧭 Table of Contents - [📝 Summary](#-summary) - [📖 Main Content](#-main-content) - [🗒️ Notes](#️-notes) - [📚 References](#-references) - [🗣️ Paraphrase](#️-paraphrase) - [📰 Newsletter](#-newsletter) - [✅ Action Items](#-action-items) - [🧪 Hypotheses](#-hypotheses) - [📊 Methodology](#-methodology) - [❓ Questions](#-questions) - [🔮 Future Research](#-future-research) - [💡 Implications](#-implications) - [🧠 Learning Styles Assessment](#-learning-styles-assessment) - [📊 Accessibility Assessment](#-accessibility-assessment) - [🌍 DEIB Assessment](#-deib-assessment) - [✅ Logical Validity](#-logical-validity) - [🛡️ DARVO Analysis](#-darvo-analysis) - [🎯 Conclusion](#-conclusion) ### 🔗 References - [Agency Action Show](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dW1xBmEx2I0) - [Mañana Nomas](https://manananoomas.com) ## 📝 Summary - Kurt and Toby discuss managing agency operations during chaotic times and external disruptions - Why consistency matters more than perfection when running an agency business - Key stakeholders are agency owners, employees, and clients dealing with various stressors - Risk is losing control of projects and client relationships during turbulent periods - Bottom line: Proactive communication and systematic processes prevent chaos from derailing agency success ## 📖 Main Content Kurt Von and Toby Crimes return to discuss how agency owners can maintain stability and client confidence during periods of external chaos and internal disruption. They explore the tension between personal challenges and professional responsibilities, emphasizing that successful agency management requires showing up consistently even when circumstances are difficult. The conversation covers practical strategies for maintaining client relationships during stressful periods, including becoming the "rock" that clients depend on for stability. They discuss how internal agency operations are inherently messy but can be managed through systematic processes, clear communication, and appropriate pricing that accounts for inevitable complications. The hosts share experiences with client management, boundary setting, and the importance of authentic leadership while maintaining professional standards. They address common agency challenges like scope creep, client asset quality, and the ongoing pressure to stay current with evolving technology stacks. ## 🗒️ Notes #### ⏱️ [00:00](https://youtu.be/dW1xBmEx2I0?t=0) — [H1] Season Two Return with Real Context - Key idea: Returning to the show during a period of external chaos and disruption - Evidence: "We are back. Welcome to the Agency Action Show after a little bit of a hiatus" #### ⏱️ [03:45](https://youtu.be/dW1xBmEx2I0?t=225) — [H2] The Reality of Showing Up During Crisis - Key idea: Agency owners must maintain professional presence despite personal struggles - Evidence: "I still have to show up to work with all this stuff going on... you have to put on a show to some regard" #### ⏱️ [08:30](https://youtu.be/dW1xBmEx2I0?t=510) — [H2] Freedom vs Responsibility in Self-Employment - Key idea: Self-employment freedom comes with the burden of constant responsibility - Evidence: "There's the inverse... the responsibility of that the work never goes away. The relationships always need maintained" #### ⏱️ [12:15](https://youtu.be/dW1xBmEx2I0?t=735) — [H2] Consistency Over Perfection Strategy - Key idea: Sustainable progress requires showing up consistently rather than achieving perfection - Evidence: "Hopefully like one and a half steps forward, one step back. Like that's kind of what I'm aiming for generally" #### ⏱️ [16:20](https://youtu.be/dW1xBmEx2I0?t=980) — [H2] Managing Productivity Cycles - Key idea: Self-employed professionals can optimize work around natural productivity rhythms - Evidence: "On the days that I really don't want to do it, I could stare at the computer... and get done an hour and a half worth of work" #### ⏱️ [20:45](https://youtu.be/dW1xBmEx2I0?t=1245) — [H2] Authenticity in Client Communication - Key idea: Being genuine about challenges while maintaining professional competence builds trust - Evidence: "Make it so what people see and what people experience is really close to who I am" #### ⏱️ [25:10](https://youtu.be/dW1xBmEx2I0?t=1510) — [H1] Becoming the Client's Rock - Key idea: Agencies succeed by providing stability and calm leadership during client chaos - Evidence: "There's an opportunity in a chaotic situation... to be the rock for the people who are hiring you" #### ⏱️ [29:30](https://youtu.be/dW1xBmEx2I0?t=1770) — [H2] Project Hub Leadership Role - Key idea: Successful agency owners become the central coordination point for complex projects - Evidence: "We become the hub of what that is and if you're showing like chinks in the armor that's not lending confidence to the client" #### ⏱️ [33:45](https://youtu.be/dW1xBmEx2I0?t=2025) — [H1] Universal Agency Messiness - Key idea: All agencies experience internal chaos regardless of size or sophistication - Evidence: "I believe that every web agency is a complete mess and a complete wreck internally" #### ⏱️ [38:20](https://youtu.be/dW1xBmEx2I0?t=2300) — [H2] Process Implementation Success - Key idea: Systematic training and documentation reduces operational chaos - Evidence: "We put processes in place and we started making internal training programs for people that we hire" #### ⏱️ [42:15](https://youtu.be/dW1xBmEx2I0?t=2535) — [H2] Client Asset Quality Problems - Key idea: Poor client-provided assets create predictable project complications - Evidence: "They give you some great looking photo... And then they want you to make the photo fit in a portrait space" #### ⏱️ [46:30](https://youtu.be/dW1xBmEx2I0?t=2790) — [H2] Technology Stack Anxiety - Key idea: Industry pressure around tool choices creates unnecessary stress for agencies - Evidence: "Everyone's trying to be binary like good, bad, good, bad, instead of realizing WordPress is this giant ecosphere" #### ⏱️ [50:45](https://youtu.be/dW1xBmEx2I0?t=3045) — [H2] Client Expectation Management - Key idea: Clear communication about timing and deliverables prevents most client problems - Evidence: "If your clients know what to expect and when to expect it, you've already solved a lot of the problems" #### ⏱️ [55:10](https://youtu.be/dW1xBmEx2I0?t=3310) — [H1] Pricing for Chaos Buffer - Key idea: Higher pricing enables better tolerance for inevitable client complications - Evidence: "I can deal with more of those problems if they're paying me more" #### ⏱️ [60:25](https://youtu.be/dW1xBmEx2I0?t=3625) — [H2] Proactive Problem Forecasting - Key idea: Experienced agencies can predict and price for likely client difficulties - Evidence: "I expect this person's going to struggle... I'm anticipating struggles... I just factor it in" ## 📚 References - [Agency Action Show on YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dW1xBmEx2I0) - [Mañana Nomas Agency](https://manananoomas.com) - [The Mighty Mo Agency](https://themightymo.com) ## 🗣️ Paraphrase - Agency owners must maintain professional presence and client confidence even during personal or external crises, requiring authentic leadership that acknowledges challenges while providing stability - All agencies experience internal operational chaos regardless of size, but systematic processes, clear communication, and appropriate pricing can manage this complexity effectively - Success comes from consistent showing up rather than perfect performance, with proactive communication preventing most client relationship problems ## 📰 Newsletter **Managing Your WordPress Agency Through Chaos** Running a WordPress agency means showing up consistently, even when the world feels chaotic. This week's Agency Action Show episode reminds us that all agencies deal with internal messiness - the key is not eliminating chaos, but managing it effectively. **Key Takeaways:** - Build systematic processes and training to reduce operational chaos - Price projects to include a "chaos buffer" for inevitable complications - Become the stable "rock" that clients depend on during turbulent times - Communicate proactively about timeline and deliverable expectations The hosts emphasize that authenticity builds trust - you can acknowledge challenges while maintaining professional competence. Remember, clients hire agencies precisely because they need someone to provide stability in their complex web projects. Resources: [Learn WordPress](https://learn.wordpress.org/), [Developer Docs](https://developer.wordpress.org/), [WP-CLI](https://wp-cli.org/) ## ✅ Action Items #### DevRel - Developer advocacy: Share agency management best practices, create case studies around process documentation - Education: Develop workshops on client communication and project management for WordPress professionals - Developer experience: Document systematic approaches to contractor onboarding and training - Developer marketing: Create content about agency operations transparency and professional development - Community management: Facilitate discussions about sustainable business practices and work-life balance #### Community - Contributors: Share processes for managing open source contributions alongside client work pressures - Sponsors: Support programs that help agency owners develop sustainable business practices - Ecosystem: Coordinate resources for agency management best practices and mental health support #### WordPress - Community: Develop meetup content about agency management, work-life balance, and sustainable practices - Training: Create lesson plans about project management, client communication, and business operations - Documentation: Improve guidance for agencies on process documentation and systematization ## 🧪 Hypotheses - Systematic contractor training programs significantly reduce operational chaos in growing agencies - Pricing projects with "chaos buffers" improves both profitability and client satisfaction - Authentic communication about challenges while maintaining professional competence builds stronger client relationships - Proactive expectation setting prevents majority of client relationship problems ### 📊 Methodology - Survey agency owners about internal process documentation and its impact on operational stability - Compare client satisfaction rates between agencies with clear expectation-setting versus those without - Analyze project profitability correlation with chaos-buffer pricing strategies ### ❓ Questions - How can agencies systematically identify and price for predictable client complications? - What specific processes most effectively reduce operational chaos while maintaining flexibility? - How do successful agencies balance authenticity with professional confidence during crisis periods? ### 🔮 Future Research - Development of standardized agency process documentation frameworks - Investigation into mental health support systems for agency owners and employees - Analysis of pricing strategies that account for client management complexity ### 💡 Implications - Practice: Agencies should develop systematic processes and training rather than relying on individual knowledge transfer - Policy: Industry standards could emerge around fair pricing for project management complexity - Education: Business training for WordPress professionals should include crisis management and authentic leadership - Funding: Investment in agency management tools and training could improve industry sustainability ### 🧠 Learning Styles Assessment Reading level estimate: 10th Grade (Flesch-Kincaid) #### 👀 Visual learners - Present: Conversational format with clear topic transitions - Improve: Process flow diagrams, client communication templates, pricing calculation worksheets #### 🔊 Aural learners - Present: Full audio conversation available via YouTube - Improve: Timestamped audio highlights, podcast version with chapter markers #### 🗣️ Verbal learners - Present: Detailed examples, personal anecdotes, industry terminology explanation - Improve: Case study narratives, client communication scripts #### 🧩 Kinesthetic learners - Present: Actionable advice and specific implementation steps - Improve: Process implementation checklists, role-playing scenarios for difficult client conversations #### 🧠 Logical learners - Present: Clear cause-and-effect relationships between practices and outcomes - Improve: Decision trees for client management, ROI calculations for process improvements #### 🧑‍🤝‍🧑 Social learners - Present: Peer-to-peer conversation format, shared experiences - Improve: Agency owner peer groups, collaborative problem-solving frameworks #### 🧘‍♀️ Solitary learners - Present: Individual reflection on business practices - Improve: Self-assessment tools, personal business audit frameworks #### 🌿 Naturalistic learners - Present: Business ecosystem thinking, adaptation strategies - Improve: Market condition analysis, sustainable business practice frameworks ### 📊 Accessibility Assessment #### Screen reader semantics - Present: Clear heading structure, conversational format - Improve: Transcript with speaker identification, topic section headers #### Keyboard navigation - Present: Standard YouTube player controls - Improve: Jump-to-topic navigation, transcript keyboard shortcuts #### Contrast and readability - Present: Standard video player interface - Improve: High-contrast transcript option, adjustable text size #### Text resizing and reflow - Present: Responsive video player - Improve: Transcript reflow at various zoom levels #### Media and captions - Present: Audio content available - Improve: Professional captions, downloadable transcript #### Standards reference - Video content should include comprehensive captions per WCAG 2.2 AA 1.2.2 ### 🌍 DEIB Assessment #### Cultural breadth - Present: Discussion of varied business challenges and contexts - Improve: International agency perspectives, diverse business models #### Inclusive language - Present: Professional business terminology, personal experience sharing - Improve: Gender-neutral role references, diverse industry examples #### Neurodiversity support - Present: Structured conversation with clear topic transitions - Improve: Content warnings for discussion of anxiety and stress, summary bullets #### Representation - Present: Two different agency owner perspectives - Improve: Diverse agency owner voices, varied business sizes and markets #### Psychological safety - Present: Open discussion of business challenges and mental health impacts - Improve: Resources for mental health support, community support connections ### ✅ Logical Validity #### Strong reasoning - Deductive strength: Clear connection between systematic processes and reduced chaos - Inductive strength: Pattern recognition from multiple client management experiences - Causal reasoning: Link between proactive communication and client satisfaction - Analogical strength: Comparison between corporate employment constraints and self-employment flexibility #### Fallacies - Survivorship bias: Only discusses successful agency strategies without failed approaches - Hasty generalization: "Every web agency is a complete mess internally" without comprehensive data #### Tone of voice - Overall tone: Conversational, supportive, and experientially grounded with authentic vulnerability about business challenges ### 🛡️ DARVO Analysis - Deny: No denial patterns present - Attack: No attacks on critics or clients - Reverse victim/offender: No victim/offender reversal present - Emotional cues and rhetoric: Authentic sharing of challenges with constructive problem-solving focus ## 🎯 Conclusion The key insight from this discussion is that agency chaos is universal and manageable rather than eliminable. Success comes from developing systematic processes, pricing appropriately for complexity, and maintaining authentic client communication during difficult periods. Agency owners who accept internal messiness while providing external stability create sustainable businesses that serve as reliable partners for their clients' complex web projects. ## 🧱 Refactor Appendix ### 📚 Literature Split Pad Purpose: Stage CEE units that become Literature notes. Split level: H3 ### [H1] Agency success requires systematic chaos management > [!quote] [The Solution to Agency Chaos](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dW1xBmEx2I0) by [[Agency Action Show]] via [[YouTube]]. Published 2024. --- ## Full Transcript [00:00] It feels like forever, but we are back. [00:04] Welcome to the Agency Action Show after [00:06] a little bit of a hiatus. My name is [00:08] Kurt. I'm here with my co-host, uh, Toby [00:11] Crimes. Toby from the Mighty Mo up in [00:13] Minneapolis. Dude, it's been forever. I [00:16] missed you. I'm glad we're back making [00:18] another episode. I missed you, too. I [00:20] think this might be season two. Not [00:22] sure. Well, for those who don't know, [00:24] Kurt and I just show up and with [00:26] prepared to talk. Matt uh Madios does [00:30] all the production work and decides when [00:32] the seasons start and end. So, yeah. [00:35] Yeah. So, this might be season two. I [00:37] maybe it's season 3. Crap. I don't know, [00:39] dude. Um it's fun making the shows and [00:42] and and just a little tidbit, I have [00:44] other shows where I have like a [00:46] responsibility in the production of it. [00:48] This is so nice. Turn on the camera, [00:50] have a conversation, turn off the [00:52] camera, and go back to life. [00:54] >> This is the dream job. Now, if only paid [00:56] like a dream job, that would [00:59] >> be the the life. [01:01] >> This is the dream job. [01:03] >> Well, Toby, I know that we've got some [01:06] things to talk about today, but I know [01:07] that we do want to open with a different [01:10] topic. [01:12] >> Yeah. And you know, we might talk about [01:14] this this whole episode, but the the [01:16] gist of it is um I live in Minneapolis [01:18] and right now in Minneapolis, there's a [01:21] lot going on [01:23] outside in people's hearts and people's [01:26] lives lives are being upended. Um [01:29] there's a lot of hate, a lot of love, [01:31] everything going on out outside my [01:33] window here. And um [01:37] so I was thinking I still have to show [01:39] up to work um with all this stuff going [01:44] on. And part of it's like I'm carrying a [01:46] lot of anxiety myself as I come to work [01:49] today and yesterday. And um and it's not [01:54] the first time that I've had to do that. [01:56] In fact, I think it's part of your [01:58] responsibility as an employee, as an [02:01] agency owner, but particularly as an [02:03] agency owner, if you have employees in [02:06] particular, and if you're talking to [02:07] customers, you have to put on a show to [02:12] some regard, you know, in some respect. [02:16] So, that's what I wanted to talk about. [02:17] Like, here's an example. Um, how chaos [02:21] might show up today for me. My kids are [02:24] at home. One kid today was screaming [02:27] during one of my calls. It was like a [02:29] kind of an urgent call with a client and [02:32] um my routines are disrupted [02:35] uh for that and other reasons related to [02:37] the disruptions outside right now. I [02:41] personally am carrying a lot of heavy [02:43] emotions into my day and anxieties, but [02:46] also my clients are the one most of our [02:49] clients are local and so they're a lot [02:51] of them are showing up with the same or [02:54] you know pressures and anxieties that [02:57] are related to similar things. [03:00] Um [03:02] and so like I still have to show up. [03:06] Yeah, you still have to show up. That's [03:08] that's the hard part about being [03:10] self-employed. You know, I I have this [03:13] series that I make called um Fitness [03:15] Focus Freedom Friday. Every Friday I [03:17] make a message online, right? And I and [03:19] I talk about, hey, this is how I'm [03:20] staying in shape. This is what I'm [03:21] focusing on. Um here's the freedom that [03:24] I'm experiencing this week, right? And [03:26] it's Friday, so you know, kick ass, [03:27] finish the week strong, and have a great [03:29] weekend. And um I think it's like a [03:31] pretty positive message, but there's the [03:33] other side of that freedom thing and [03:36] it's the responsibility that comes with [03:37] freedom. And so yeah, you're [03:40] self-employed, you're an entrepreneur, [03:42] you know, um do you have the freedom to [03:44] unplug and and take a couple of of [03:46] wellness hours to yourself or or you [03:48] know, turn off the feed and and uh have [03:50] an adult beverage or whatever? Yeah, you [03:52] can. But there's the the inverse is [03:56] always true is also true, right? It's [03:58] the responsibility of that the work [04:01] never goes away. The relationships [04:03] always need maintained. And you know, I [04:05] know you're really focused on sales as [04:07] an agency owner. So, it's like the sales [04:09] side is never turned off. I mean, you [04:11] got to be ready to go when it's time to [04:12] go. [04:13] >> It's hard. It's really hard. [04:16] >> Yeah. [04:18] And along those lines, it should say [04:20] like [04:22] I think part of the the hard thing about [04:24] owning a business, and this is probably [04:26] any business, is this showing up day [04:28] after day regardless of what's going on [04:32] out there. You just got to keep going. [04:34] And some days you're going to suck at [04:35] it. So like I always think like, you [04:37] know, hopefully like one and a half [04:40] steps forward, one step back. Like [04:42] that's kind of what I'm aiming for [04:43] generally. Um, and so if if I have one [04:48] week that's great, one week not great, [04:50] but I think the key is to keep showing [04:51] up there. There's such a value in [04:55] consistency, Toby. I can't even I can't [04:58] even express it enough. Not every day or [05:01] every week or even every month needs to [05:03] be a home run, right? Because that's [05:05] that's [05:07] that that's uh unreasonable. It just is, [05:10] right? We have dreams. We have [05:12] aspirations. That's not unreasonable. [05:14] But to to realistically expect that [05:16] every day, week or month is a home run [05:20] is just not realistic. So the [05:22] consistency is realistic and you can [05:25] control that even on I'm in a similar [05:28] struggle. I mean I don't have I don't [05:30] have the stuff you've got in Minneapolis [05:32] happening right now. But like my wife [05:34] started this new job where she's off [05:36] every Monday and Tuesday. [05:40] every Monday and Tuesday. She wakes up, [05:42] she says, "What have you got going on [05:43] today, babe?" I'm like, "The same thing [05:46] I got going on every day when you go to [05:48] work, you know, I've got meetings, I've [05:51] got web projects I'm working on, I've [05:52] got social media posts, I've got [05:54] invoicing, I've got, you know, followup [05:56] on invoicing, I've got, you know, and [05:58] she's like, "Yeah, but I thought we [06:00] would." No, just because you're off [06:02] doesn't mean I'm off, right? But it's [06:04] that added pressure. the pressure and [06:07] the anxiety I think is is what we're [06:09] really talking about, right? We're not [06:10] really talking about the the actual [06:13] thing, [06:14] >> right? Oh, yeah. Yeah. And I think like [06:18] it's easy. I shouldn't say it's easy. It [06:20] sucks [06:22] to quit like and but that's all I want [06:27] to do today. [06:31] And I think like like [06:32] >> are you saying we picked a bad day to [06:33] come back on the air? [06:34] >> No. No. It's actually like illustrative [06:36] of this thing. I was going to come I was [06:38] already at work. It's not It's just that [06:41] all I wanted to do was quit. And I I [06:43] think like if you read like mainstream [06:46] news articles, it's pretty rare to hear [06:50] that from a CEO of any company, big or [06:52] small. like that this I bet you the CEO [06:55] of I don't know some people are crazy [06:58] like the big levels but like I don't [07:01] know maybe even like the big CEOs maybe [07:03] they have days where they're like gosh I [07:05] wish I didn't have to go into work today [07:07] you ever feel like you don't want to go [07:09] into work Kurt like really don't want to [07:11] like and you do anyway [07:14] well the and I do anyway happens a lot [07:18] there have been times as long as I don't [07:20] have a scheduled [07:22] like monetaryoriented [07:24] meeting [07:26] on the calendar. If I really don't feel [07:29] like doing it for the day, man, I'll [07:31] take the dog to the park. We'll go for a [07:33] nice walk. We'll go to the dog park. [07:35] I'll go for a bicycle ride. I'll run [07:37] down to Sand Hills Brewing, which is uh [07:40] owned by our friend Pippen Williamson. [07:43] I'll go down there and hang out with him [07:44] and have a beer during the day. He's not [07:46] usually there at night, right? So, if I [07:48] see him during the day, I can have a [07:49] quick conversation with him. Um, that's [07:52] part of the freedom part of [07:54] self-employment, right? Is if there's [07:55] days I really just don't want to do it, [07:58] I'm not going to force myself to. And [07:59] and here's my reasoning. On the days [08:02] that I really don't want to do it, I [08:04] could stare at the computer for that 6 [08:08] hours, that 8 hours, that 10 hours, [08:09] whatever that is, and get done an hour [08:12] and a half or or two hours worth of [08:13] work. And then the days that I do want [08:17] to do it, the days the days where I'm [08:19] excited and I go, "Oh, I got a new web [08:20] project. I'm gonna knock it out real [08:21] quick." I can literally do a week's [08:24] worth of work in half a day, right? And [08:27] so I have to be cognizant of the value [08:30] of my time and what I'm in the mind [08:32] space to create. [08:34] When I was corporately employed, I [08:35] didn't have that freedom. Like when I [08:37] worked at Suzuki, we worked from 8:00 in [08:38] the morning till 5:00 at night. And it [08:40] was really cool to have a corporate job [08:42] where I only had to work from 8:00 to [08:43] 5:00. I mean, that part of the job was [08:44] cool. Like, Suzuki was way cool for [08:46] that. But the problem is is my brain [08:49] would start working about 5:30 in the [08:51] morning, but I wasn't getting paid to [08:53] work at 5:30 in the morning. So, I [08:55] wasn't working on Suzuki stuff at 5:30 [08:57] in the morning. And when the [08:58] distractions happened in the office [09:00] between like 9 and 11 or 9 and noon, and [09:03] I got nothing done, the company paid me [09:06] a salary to sit there for three or four [09:08] hours and get nothing done, you know. [09:11] And that's again that's benefits and [09:14] freedoms of self-employment. We can be [09:16] productive when we are productive. [09:19] >> Yeah. And I think [09:21] you know part of like the show of owning [09:24] an agency you know the [09:30] part of the the I should should say the [09:32] the good thing about owning an agency. [09:33] You can say who you work with when you [09:35] work how you work. You get to show up [09:37] however you want. Like nobody's going to [09:39] fire you. I mean, you might have a [09:40] client fire you, but like and I think [09:42] like [09:45] you can that communication can be [09:48] consistent. I think part of it is not as [09:51] close as I've always worked for the last [09:53] 10 years. We'll say the first five years [09:54] I was figuring it out but like I always [09:56] wanted to I tr for the last 10 years and [09:59] I think I've achieved it in the last 5 [10:01] years or so but I've tried to what [10:04] people tried to make it so what people [10:05] see and what people experience is really [10:08] close to who I am and I think in times [10:11] where anxietyy's high that really helps [10:13] because I can then communicate to them [10:16] that I'm feeling a lot of anxiety or not [10:18] but like I'm like I was on a call with a [10:21] client today and you know we didn't [10:23] speak directly about issues, but we were [10:25] both kind of like, "You're in [10:27] Minneapolis. Me, too." And quite a day. [10:29] Yep. Quite a day. [10:32] And um I think like [10:36] something that can help in a time when [10:39] it's when you're feeling overwhelmed, [10:42] and this is overwhelmed, anxious. I [10:45] always think like figure out one thing [10:46] you can do today that moves the needle. [10:49] Write it down and then do it. [10:54] That's the sign of leadership, my [10:55] friend. [10:57] So you you could bask in the in, you [11:01] know, bask in the darkness of of [11:02] oppression and depression and everything [11:06] else or, you know, you could find that [11:09] light at the end of the tunnel and and [11:10] like you said, you know, pick something [11:12] and make it happen, right? That's the [11:14] sign of of leadership. I'm really big on [11:17] on authenticity for a lot of things. Um, [11:22] I took some training with a guy named [11:24] um, Andrew Egleton. He's out of [11:27] Australia. He's a he's a pretty famous [11:29] presentation trainer, presentation [11:31] coach. And one of his first rules is no [11:34] change of state. When you step on stage [11:36] to give a presentation, you know, don't [11:39] turn into Bob Barker and be like this [11:41] fake phony dude. Everything's great. [11:42] Here's my presentation and isn't this [11:44] wonderful and you guys are wonderful and [11:46] thanks for having me and have a great [11:47] day. Good night. He's like, "If you, [11:50] it's no change of state. You know your [11:52] content. You're the subject matter [11:53] expert. You're going to get up and share [11:54] wisdom with these people. But if you're [11:56] having a shitty day, you just tell them [11:58] you're having a shitty day." You know, [12:00] like, "Hey, I'm having a shitty day, but [12:01] let's knock this out anyway." Right? [12:03] That there is nothing wrong with being [12:06] authentic, but still rising to the [12:09] occasion, being the leader, and [12:12] executing. [12:13] I also think there's [12:16] first of all I totally agree with you [12:17] and there's an opportunity in a chaotic [12:21] situation like the one I'm currently in [12:23] to be the rock for the people who are [12:26] hiring you. And I think even outside of [12:28] a chaotic situation like this, usually [12:31] people hire us because they need someone [12:33] to be a rock in their whatever web [12:37] project they're working on. [12:40] And especially probably at a time like [12:42] this when there's even more chaos, the [12:44] more I can communicate calm, we've got [12:47] this, [12:49] probably the more highly valued I'll be [12:51] in that transaction. [12:54] I think that's 100% correct. And and [12:56] that I don't think that has anything to [12:58] do with where you're located right now [13:00] or the times, right? I look back on some [13:03] of our most important projects and those [13:06] most important the the highlighted [13:08] projects, the ones where it got knocked [13:10] out of the park. It was because I had to [13:13] become the hub of whatever that company [13:16] was doing. Um, and it sounds like it's [13:18] overinflating our importance. I don't [13:20] think it is. We're responsible for the [13:22] company's communication, the company's [13:24] interaction with the outside world. um [13:27] you know we have to work with the [13:28] different stakeholders with with with [13:31] marketing with sales with you know if [13:33] you're doing an enterprise project [13:34] you're leveraging a lot of stakeholders [13:37] and you become the hub of what that is [13:40] and if you're showing like chinks in the [13:42] armor that's not lending confidence to [13:45] the client. So, you got to be strong. [13:48] You got to take leadership. You got to [13:49] say, "No, that's not the way we do that. [13:51] Here's here's the process we're going to [13:52] use in this instance." And they're going [13:54] to go, "Oh, crap." And they're just [13:55] going to follow, right? Um when they [13:58] don't want to follow, you make them [13:59] follow, right? And then that puts you [14:02] that puts you in a catbird seat of of [14:06] leadership to an extent. I mean, you [14:07] still have a client you're answering to, [14:09] but their department heads, their staff, [14:11] their stakeholders that are underneath [14:13] that, they're under your toutelage as [14:16] the project manager. And when we lose [14:18] focus of that, we lose control of the [14:20] project. And that's when things spool [14:22] out of control. [14:23] >> Yeah, that's true. And there's also this [14:26] thing [14:27] that I believe the process of getting [14:31] complex things done is very messy. [14:34] So when you build a website, it's not [14:36] only just building, you got to design [14:38] it. And there's a lot of conversations [14:40] internal, external. SEO project, same [14:42] thing. Building a website, same thing. [14:46] I believe that every web agency is a [14:49] complete mess and a complete wreck [14:52] internally. So much so that I I was [14:54] talking to my sales guy who does not um [14:57] well so he was telling me I was so I had [15:00] him on a call with an existing client [15:03] who's we're now hiring as a u brand [15:06] consultant so they're helping us and he [15:08] was sharing a concern like hey it's a [15:11] mess getting the work done I'm sorry you [15:14] know and the and the consultant who had [15:15] hired us for a project a big project we [15:17] did it for her she goes I didn't feel [15:19] any of that. Yeah. [15:20] >> And I think [15:22] to be real with people here, like other [15:24] agency owners, it's probably a mess. [15:27] Even at the biggest, most put together [15:29] company and agency, not only agency, but [15:31] companies, let's be honest here. Um, [15:35] organizations, huge or, you know, it's [15:37] messy. And and part of being a rock is [15:41] communicating [15:43] even fakeely how how that you can see [15:48] the vision. I don't know. So, so you can [15:50] communicate the vision but also the plan [15:52] like we have a very clear uh number of [15:55] steps that we share with our clients but [15:57] even those steps as clear as it sounds [16:00] on paper are a complete mess really like [16:02] when it comes down to it there's issues [16:04] there's miscommunications [16:07] and so part of being that rock is [16:10] externally you can communicate the plan [16:14] clearly and just understand I just want [16:16] to like give people grace and say [16:17] internally it's probably going to be a [16:19] mess no matter how big and locked down [16:21] you get. Although Kurt, you run one of [16:23] the most finest WordPress agencies and [16:27] marketing agencies in the world. So, I'm [16:28] curious to know your experience. Is it a [16:31] mess? [16:33] It used to be a big mess [16:36] and then we put processes in place and [16:39] we started making um internal training [16:42] programs for people that we hire. So, [16:45] when we hire them, it's not like I train [16:46] each person separately. I just say, [16:49] "Hey, here's the course we created for [16:51] this feature, for this for this task. [16:53] Take this course. If you have any [16:55] questions, get back to me." But it [16:56] trains them on every it trains them on [16:57] our processes like cuz every agency is [17:00] different. Who do you host with? How do [17:01] you create a hosting package? What, you [17:03] know, what's your tech stack? What's [17:04] your how do you set that up? So, we have [17:06] that all built into courses in the back [17:08] end of Manoan Nas. So, when I hire a [17:11] contractor, I give them the training [17:13] there so it's consistent with each [17:15] person we hire. and um it seems to work [17:18] well. Where the chaos comes in is, you [17:22] know, you you can't control the clients. [17:26] And so they'll say, "Oh, well, here's [17:28] the assets we have." And in comes this [17:30] folder of nonsense. And you and then [17:33] they say, and they give you some great [17:35] looking photo that's, you know, [17:36] landscape. And then they want you to [17:39] make the photo fit in a portrait space [17:41] on the website. And of course, you can't [17:43] you can't crop it, clip it, cut it. [17:45] nothing you do is going to make that [17:46] picture look good. And they're like, [17:48] "Well, I don't understand. It just [17:50] doesn't look that good on the website." [17:51] And you're like, "You gave me junk. [17:55] We We have to remake this. We have to [17:57] redo stuff. We have to create assets [17:59] that work for this project." And and [18:01] that's where I think some of the chaos [18:04] comes in. I'm going to bring up one of [18:06] our old subjects for chaos because I [18:08] feel vindicated. Can I can I bring up a [18:10] vindicated? [18:10] >> Yeah. Well, yeah. Let's hear it. Do you [18:13] remember a few episodes back we talked [18:14] about clients that wanted to divide code [18:16] their own plugins? [18:18] >> Yeah. [18:20] Well, we referred a client out. We said [18:22] we said, "Nope, that's not us. You're [18:23] going to have to take that somewhere [18:24] else." And uh a very large agency got on [18:29] on X the other day and said, "Hey, a [18:32] client that we are a client that we're [18:34] checking over a plug-in for." And and [18:37] all my bells and whistles went off in my [18:38] head because I had referred the client [18:40] to that agency. um they they they they [18:43] they said they found over a hundred [18:45] security flaws in that plug-in and and [18:49] all of this work. And that's part of the [18:52] chaos, I think, right now that we're [18:53] dealing with is this we we've got this [18:56] influx of AI. You and I have been around [18:59] long enough to understand what's stable [19:00] and what isn't stable. Clients are not [19:03] professionals. They don't know what's [19:05] stable, what isn't stable. Um there's [19:08] there's a real struggle there. [19:10] um [19:12] chaos on on the other agency side. You [19:15] and I are uh I don't know if you're [19:17] getting the same pressure I'm getting, [19:18] but I get a lot of people hit me up on X [19:21] or Facebook and you know what? I'm using [19:23] this page builder. I'm using that page [19:25] builder. Anyone who uses this page [19:26] builder is a Anyone that uses [19:29] this page builder is a genius. Anyone [19:31] that And it's like no because for me it [19:35] all comes down to use case. certain [19:37] customers and certain builds belong over [19:39] here where things are easy and simple [19:41] and certain clients belong over here [19:45] where I'm doing enterprise level design [19:47] and work, you know, and so it's it's [19:49] interesting to me that we're in this [19:51] weird space right now where everyone's [19:53] trying to be binary like good, bad, [19:56] good, bad, instead of realizing [19:59] WordPress is this giant ecosphere and [20:03] the and we're not limited and the [20:06] options are immense and we can do [20:09] whatever we want, but it seems like [20:11] there's all this stress and anxiety over [20:14] your tech stack or how you do things. [20:18] I also think there are ways to kind of [20:22] control [20:24] the client facing chaos. Um, an example [20:28] would be a project manager. like a good [20:30] project manager or account manager will [20:35] solve a lot of business problems for you [20:38] in terms of client communication. The [20:40] clients will know when stuff's coming, [20:42] which is probably the most important [20:44] thing you can do is [20:45] >> I think [20:47] uh and maybe this is our niche, the [20:50] Mighty Mo. I mean, I'm sure like a lot [20:51] of agencies have figured this out, but [20:53] it's if you can if your clients know [20:55] what to expect and when to expect it, [20:58] you've already solved a lot of the [21:00] problems that you you might have with [21:02] that client. Um, similar like um [21:07] uh on the billing end in terms of [21:09] cleaning up the chaos. Um, [21:12] I I I had an issue this last week where [21:16] I didn't send an invoice out in on the [21:19] date that I thought I had sent it out. [21:22] It and I didn't send it out at all and [21:24] here we are like now two weeks in, we're [21:26] already working and I'm like I didn't [21:28] send the invoice and I'm trying. So, [21:32] right now, that's a chaotic point for [21:34] the Mighty Mo. And we are I'm in [21:36] conversations with my bookkeeper to ask [21:38] I'm asking her, "How can we fix this? I [21:41] don't know how to fix the problem, but [21:42] she might." And so, um, we're engaged in [21:45] that conversation. Well, based on a [21:48] couple episodes ago, the lady that you [21:50] hired to help you with money doesn't [21:52] have personal feelings for clients, so [21:54] she'll just send the dang invoice [21:56] >> and she'll say, "You're two weeks late. [21:58] Pay us now." [21:59] >> Exactly. In fact, um she sent once a [22:02] month she sends those now. That's part [22:03] of her monthly routine and it's great [22:06] and it's she just sent it the other day [22:08] and you know, we always get one or two. [22:10] Oh, sorry. Sorry. You know, my fault. [22:12] Here it is. Um here's another one. I had [22:16] a call from a friend yesterday, a [22:17] colleague who uh is a WordPress [22:19] developer [22:20] and designer, and they have a client [22:23] that they wanted to fire and I was I had [22:26] a long conversation. was like and they [22:27] wanted the question was hey Toby will [22:29] you take this client from me literally [22:31] I'm not joking [22:32] >> and I'm like tell me more about this [22:34] scenario and we got into it and she was [22:36] just done with this client and what I [22:40] kept wondering was it and I'm not sure [22:43] the answer but if she had charged enough [22:47] would this had been fine [22:50] so like as a way to eliminate some of [22:52] that like internal chaos that you are [22:54] feeling a lot of times For me, if I [22:57] charge more, I feel a lot better about [22:59] dealing with the chaos like you [23:01] described. Client send you the bucket of [23:03] images. None of them are any good. What [23:05] do you do? Um, I can deal with more of [23:07] those problems if they're paying me [23:08] more. [23:10] So, you touched on an interesting [23:12] subject with the money and everyone's [23:16] complaining about the economy. [23:17] Everyone's saying everybody's broke. [23:19] Everyone's saying that business is down. [23:20] Everyone's saying they got to give away [23:22] services to get jobs. And in the middle [23:25] of all that, I have been [23:29] I don't want to say raising the rates. I [23:31] don't think that's a fair way to say it. [23:32] So, I did raise our hosting rates, but [23:35] we are including more services with our [23:37] maintenance package. So, it it makes [23:39] sense. You're getting services with the [23:40] raised rates. Um, but I've also in our [23:44] proposals, I've been I've been tacking [23:46] on like I expect, you know, after after [23:48] the discovery meeting, I expect this [23:50] person's going to struggle with using [23:52] the client portal. I'm anticipating [23:54] struggles with proper media. I'm [23:57] expecting troubles with their marketing [24:00] VP. Uh, and because of that, I factor [24:02] that time in. I just factor it in. It's [24:05] It's part of the job now. And whereas [24:07] before, I didn't really factor that in, [24:09] I think. And it's so bizarre, Toby. [24:12] We've been doing this for decades. It [24:14] seems like you and I, right? [24:16] But I kept like bidding jobs, doing [24:18] proposals based on, well, how long is it [24:20] going to take me to do this? And if I [24:21] break that up, I'm so it's going to be [24:23] $8,000. And really, what I should have [24:25] said was it's going to be $18,000 [24:27] because this client's obviously a [24:29] and is going to take an extra hundred of [24:32] my hours, right? But you you as time has [24:36] passed, I have gotten much much better [24:38] at forecasting these issues and getting [24:42] ahead of it. And in my proposals, I know [24:45] that I mentioned this before and you [24:46] don't do it, but I do do it. In my [24:49] proposal, I say I project this project's [24:52] going to require 12 meetings or this [24:54] project's going to require 18 meetings. [24:56] And so when they soak up 16 meetings and [24:59] we still got 3 months left, I'm quick to [25:01] tell them, hey, you've been asking for a [25:03] lot of meetings here and you've only [25:04] you've only been build for 16 or you've [25:06] only been build for 18. And so if you [25:08] want to continue to get this kind of [25:10] hands-on experience, it's going to be [25:12] another $4,000 or it's going to be [25:14] another $6,000. and and that's fine [25:17] because the meetings fall within the [25:19] scope of work originally dictated which [25:23] I think a lot of agencies don't forecast [25:25] and I think what you're describing here [25:27] is something we've talked about in past [25:29] episodes and that's setting good [25:31] boundaries and your contract should [25:34] serve that purpose maybe more than [25:36] anything it it's supposed to set clear [25:39] boundaries for when you need to when [25:42] what triggers a new payment and how to [25:43] like when somebody's [25:46] just is causing the chaos that you're [25:48] trying to avoid. A lot of times you can [25:50] fix that if you had a clause in your [25:52] contract up front like you're saying [25:53] like, [25:54] >> "Hey, the chaos in that case was like [25:56] they just wanted way more meetings than [25:58] we expected and that's causing [25:59] problems." Well, I clearly stated x [26:02] number of meetings, therefore, it's fair [26:05] game to renegotiate the contract at that [26:07] point. You can buy more. [26:10] >> Yeah, [26:10] >> I got I got great news. We're a full [26:12] service agency. You can always buy more. [26:15] Um, here's one. Just yesterday, uh, I do [26:18] some contract work and one of my [26:20] contractors hit me up at like 5:30,4 to [26:24] 6 or something like that and said, "Oh, [26:26] can you check out this ticket and send [26:27] them a response?" Yeah, sure. I'll check [26:29] it out for you. 9:00 in the morning, [26:31] what was what did they say about the [26:33] response you sent? Uh, didn't respond [26:35] yet, dude. I didn't I don't I'm not [26:38] working the night shift, [26:40] you know? So, so [26:43] and sometimes I am generous. That's my [26:46] problem, right? People get used to me [26:47] being proactive and generous or you know [26:50] I I can't for sometime sometimes I have [26:52] a hard time disconnecting from the work [26:53] when the day is over and sometimes I do [26:56] extra. Um but you got to set those [26:58] boundaries like that's not an all the [27:00] time thing. I'm not I'm not a 247 [27:02] provider. And let's be real, I'm not [27:06] getting paid like uh some kind of [27:08] salaried employee at at Beck and Call on [27:10] Call, right? It's like, dude, you're [27:12] going to get 12 to 24-hour response the [27:14] same as everybody else. [27:17] I find one of the things that's holding [27:19] my company back right now is that [27:22] specifically what you described, this [27:25] desire that comes from deep within me to [27:27] be a people pleaser or to make sure [27:30] everything goes perfectly because the [27:32] the reality is that sometimes I'll see [27:35] things happening because I now have 10 [27:38] people on my team and sometimes I I'll [27:40] see things I'll go, "Wow, that looks [27:41] like it's not going well." And then I'll [27:44] like dig in and I'll be like, "Seems [27:46] like it's like even though to me it's [27:49] everybody involved seems like it's going [27:51] fine." And that's the thing. It doesn't [27:52] need to go to my standards like the [27:55] people involved just need to think it's [27:56] going fine. [27:58] >> So you you touched on this and I kind of [28:01] want to wrap it back to how we open [28:03] today's show and I don't know, maybe [28:05] we're getting close to wrapping things [28:06] up. [28:07] >> Yeah, let's let's wrap with this. This [28:08] is great. [28:09] you you had mentioned anxiety, political [28:12] atmosphere, things outside the outside [28:15] the office, outside the home. Um, and I [28:19] think it's important to note that we [28:21] never we never truly know what the other [28:24] person is thinking or feeling. [28:27] We make a lot of assumptions and we [28:29] always put the worst of it upon [28:31] ourselves. We always think people think [28:33] we're stupid. People think we're dumb. [28:35] People probably think my office is too [28:37] dark now that I painted it. Uh, you [28:39] know, I mean, it's like we always think [28:42] the worst and it and the reality is is [28:45] that it's not the worst. It's never the [28:48] worst. You know, I mean, we'd have to be [28:50] in in some other country in some other [28:53] dire circumstance for this to be the [28:56] worst, right? Um, [28:59] and it's the same way in our business. [29:01] We we work with customers, we [29:04] communicate with customers, and the [29:06] whole time we're thinking to ourselves, [29:08] "Oh my god, we're going to lose the [29:09] contract or they're going to hate this [29:10] or uh they're going to be pissed if we [29:13] miss the the deadline or we're" But if [29:15] we just communicate with people [29:17] proactively and we say, "Hey, this is [29:18] what's going on. You know, I need your [29:20] feedback on this." It's always [29:23] surprising. They're never upset. They're [29:25] always happy. Everything's great. As [29:26] long as we're proactive, as long as we [29:28] don't drop the ball, and even if we drop [29:30] the ball, if we just go, you know what, [29:32] you're right. I did drop the ball. I'm [29:33] really sorry about that. I'll try not to [29:34] let that happen again. They just go, [29:36] "Oh, [29:38] oh, [29:39] >> yeah." [29:40] >> You know, I I think a lot of because we [29:42] opened up talking about stress and [29:44] anxiety and and outside influences on [29:47] our on our, you know, mental well-being, [29:49] right? And our psyche for running a [29:51] business. At the end of the day, dude, [29:54] you just take your talents. You know, [29:56] I'm a person of faith. So, you take the [29:58] talent that God gave you and you [29:59] exercise it and and you do the best you [30:01] can with it. And as long as you put [30:04] forth an effort in good faith, [30:07] the results are going to come in. [30:10] >> Thanks, Kurt. How can people get in [30:12] touch with you? [30:13] >> Well, personally, you can just reach me [30:15] on LinkedIn. I'm the only Kurt Von on [30:17] LinkedIn, so it makes me easy to find. [30:19] And then for business, Mñana Noms. I'm [30:22] Mñana Noomas for everything. [30:25] >> Thanks. And I'm Toby Kines. You can find [30:27] me on LinkedIn as well. You can DM me [30:28] there or find me at the mightymo.com. [30:32] And we do WordPress and SEO. And if [30:35] you're still here, like, subscribe, [30:37] whatever all that stuff is for you [30:39] youngsters. [30:41] Do do we even say happy new year now? [30:43] This is our first show of the new year. [30:44] It is. Happy New Year. [30:46] >> Happy New Year.