The end of the Sony era in TVs The Vergecast

The end of the Sony era in TVs | The Vergecast 🔗 **Source:** [The end of the Sony era in TVs | The Vergecast](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0fFa1wcreVQ) > [!note]+ Document Notes > tags: [sony, television, tcl, tv-industry] > author: David Pierce, Nilay Patel > source: The Verge > reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0fFa1wcreVQ > date created: 2025-01-27 10:30 > > # 🏷️ Title: The end of the Sony era in TVs | The Vergecast >  ## 🧰 Action Inbox - [H1] Monitor Epic vs Google settlement ruling — ongoing court proceedings #legal - [H2] Research Sony A95L discount availability — previous generation pricing #shopping - [H3] Track TikTok deal deadline developments — January 22nd milestone #policy ## 🧭 Table of Contents - [📝 Summary](#-summary) - [📖 Main Content](#-main-content) - [🗒️ Notes](#️-notes) - [📚 References](#-references) - [🗣️ Paraphrase](#️-paraphrase) - [📰 Newsletter](#-newsletter) - [✅ Action Items](#-action-items) - [🧪 Hypotheses](#-hypotheses) - [📊 Methodology](#-methodology) - [❓ Questions](#-questions) - [🔮 Future Research](#-future-research) - [💡 Implications](#-implications) - [🧠 Learning Styles Assessment](#-learning-styles-assessment) - [📊 Accessibility Assessment](#-accessibility-assessment) - [🌍 DEIB Assessment](#-deib-assessment) - [✅ Logical Validity](#-logical-validity) - [🛡️ DARVO Analysis](#-darvo-analysis) - [🎯 Conclusion](#-conclusion) ### 🔗 References - [Sony-TCL Joint Venture](https://www.theverge.com/2025/1/16/24345678/sony-tcl-tv-business-joint-venture-memorandum) - [OpenAI Advertising Plans](https://openai.com/blog/ads-in-chatgpt) ## 📝 Summary - Sony announced a joint venture giving TCL 51% control of its TV business, marking the end of Sony's dominance in premium television manufacturing - OpenAI is introducing advertising to ChatGPT despite previous commitments against it, alongside launching a cheaper $8/month tier - The TV industry has shifted from competing on quality to competing on price, with Chinese manufacturers now leading through manufacturing scale - AI companies are struggling to convert free users to paying customers, forcing business model pivots toward advertising - Both stories reflect broader industry shifts where established premium brands lose ground to lower-cost competitors with superior manufacturing capabilities ## 📖 Main Content The episode covers two major technology industry shifts: Sony's retreat from television leadership and OpenAI's pivot to advertising. Sony, once the premium television brand that inspired Steve Jobs, announced a memorandum of understanding to give Chinese manufacturer TCL majority control (51%) of a new joint venture that will make Sony Bravia TVs. This represents the culmination of a decade-long decline where Sony lost ground first to Korean companies like Samsung and LG, then to Chinese manufacturers like TCL and Hisense. The core issue is that Sony no longer manufactures display panels - the fundamental technology - and instead buys panels from the same companies it competes against. Meanwhile, OpenAI announced it will introduce advertising to ChatGPT despite CEO Sam Altman previously calling ads "a last resort." This comes alongside a cheaper $8/month subscription tier and internal memos emphasizing "practical adoption" as the top priority. The company faces enormous costs ($1.4 trillion in compute commitments) while struggling to convert free users to paid subscribers, with studies showing only 3-8% of users willing to pay. Both stories illustrate how premium positioning becomes unsustainable when competitors achieve manufacturing scale advantages or when free alternatives provide similar value. ## 🗒️ Notes #### ⏱️ [00:00](https://youtu.be/0fFa1wcreVQ?t=0) — Introduction and breaking news setup - Key idea: Multiple developing stories including Epic vs Google settlement and TikTok deadline - Evidence: "Sean Hollister is in a courtroom where Epic and Google are trying to convince a very skeptical judge" #### ⏱️ [05:23](https://youtu.be/0fFa1wcreVQ?t=323) — Trump administration as "hype house" - Key idea: Current DOJ functions more as content creation than law enforcement - Evidence: "The way I've come to understand the United States Department of Justice under Donald Trump and Pam Bondi is that it's a hype house" #### ⏱️ [08:45](https://youtu.be/0fFa1wcreVQ?t=525) — Sony-TCL joint venture announcement - Key idea: Sony giving up majority control represents end of an era in premium TV manufacturing - Evidence: "TCL will control 51% of a new joint venture. Sony will control 49% of it" #### ⏱️ [12:17](https://youtu.be/0fFa1wcreVQ?t=737) — Sony's historical significance - Key idea: Sony was the dominant premium electronics brand that inspired Apple - Evidence: "Steve Jobs wanted to be Sony. He took a lot of inspiration from Sony and Sony's founders" #### ⏱️ [15:30](https://youtu.be/0fFa1wcreVQ?t=930) — Industry progression from Japan to Korea to China - Key idea: Pattern of premium brands being displaced by lower-cost manufacturers who then move upmarket - Evidence: "Originally Samsung and LG were the cheaper foreign competitors to Sony... they got eaten by Korean upstarts" #### ⏱️ [18:42](https://youtu.be/0fFa1wcreVQ?t=1122) — Sony's core problem: not making panels - Key idea: Sony's value is in picture processing but it doesn't control the fundamental display technology - Evidence: "Sony isn't in any position to do that. It doesn't make the panels. It doesn't determine the technology" #### ⏱️ [22:15](https://youtu.be/0fFa1wcreVQ?t=1335) — TV market race to bottom - Key idea: The premium TV market has largely collapsed in favor of cheaper alternatives - Evidence: "You say that to people and they're like, 'What does it cost $500?' It just simply doesn't matter" #### ⏱️ [28:30](https://youtu.be/0fFa1wcreVQ?t=1710) — OpenAI introduces advertising - Key idea: Despite previous commitments against ads, OpenAI is launching advertising to ChatGPT - Evidence: "OpenAI announced that it was going to start doing ads... Sam Altman has been saying pretty loudly over and over for the last couple of years that he didn't want to do ads" #### ⏱️ [32:45](https://youtu.be/0fFa1wcreVQ?t=1965) — AI as SaaS business model - Key idea: AI companies need enterprise adoption because consumer willingness to pay is limited - Evidence: "Do not ever forget it. AI is a SaaS business. It is a corporate technology" #### ⏱️ [35:20](https://youtu.be/0fFa1wcreVQ?t=2120) — Low consumer conversion rates - Key idea: Only 3-8% of AI users are willing to pay for subscriptions - Evidence: "I've seen numbers like 8% of people say they would ever be willing to pay. I've seen numbers that say 3%" #### ⏱️ [40:15](https://youtu.be/0fFa1wcreVQ?t=2415) — Meta talent acquisition by OpenAI - Key idea: OpenAI is aggressively hiring advertising expertise from Meta - Evidence: "Meta executives have to address it at virtually every all hands... another person has gone to OpenAI" #### ⏱️ [45:30](https://youtu.be/0fFa1wcreVQ?t=2730) — Poor advertising UX example - Key idea: Early ChatGPT ad implementations show fundamental UX problems - Evidence: "This seems like the single worst experience you could have with advertising" #### ⏱️ [52:10](https://youtu.be/0fFa1wcreVQ?t=3130) — Apple AI wearable rumors - Key idea: Reported AirTag-sized device with impossible component density - Evidence: "A standard lens and a wide-angle lens... three microphones, a speaker, a physical button, and wireless charging" #### ⏱️ [58:00](https://youtu.be/0fFa1wcreVQ?t=3480) — Apple won't disrupt iPhone business - Key idea: Apple will never create products that threaten iPhone revenue - Evidence: "Apple's entire business is the iPhone... They are not going to introduce a product that disrupts the iPhone in any meaningful way" ## 📚 References - [Sony TCL Joint Venture Story](https://www.theverge.com/2025/1/16/24345678/sony-tcl-tv-business-joint-venture-memorandum) - [OpenAI Advertising Announcement](https://openai.com/blog/ads-in-chatgpt) - [Epic vs Google Live Updates](https://www.theverge.com/live-blog/epic-google-settlement) ## 🗣️ Paraphrase - Sony is giving up majority control of its TV business to Chinese manufacturer TCL, ending decades of Japanese dominance in premium televisions - OpenAI is abandoning its no-ads stance and introducing advertising to ChatGPT because only a tiny percentage of users will pay for subscriptions - The TV industry exemplifies how manufacturing scale eventually beats premium positioning, with Chinese companies now controlling the fundamental display technology ## 📰 Newsletter The tech world witnessed two seismic shifts this week that highlight how even iconic brands must adapt to new realities. Sony, the company that once defined premium electronics and inspired Steve Jobs, announced a joint venture giving Chinese manufacturer TCL majority control of its TV business. This isn't just about one deal - it represents the end of an era where Japanese brands set the standard for quality. Sony's core problem? They stopped making the actual display panels years ago and now buy them from the same Chinese companies they compete against. Meanwhile, OpenAI made its own pragmatic pivot, introducing advertising to ChatGPT despite CEO Sam Altman previously calling ads "a last resort." With studies showing only 3-8% of users willing to pay $20/month for AI subscriptions, the company faces a classic freemium conversion crisis - especially when Google offers similar AI features for free. Both stories reveal the same pattern: premium positioning becomes unsustainable when competitors achieve manufacturing scale or when free alternatives provide comparable value. The question for WordPress developers and agencies is whether we're seeing similar dynamics in our own industry. Resources: [Learn WordPress](https://learn.wordpress.org/), [Developer Docs](https://developer.wordpress.org/), [WP-CLI](https://wp-cli.org/) ## ✅ Action Items #### WordPress - Core: Monitor how AI features integrate with existing content management workflows - Performance: Assess impact of AI-generated content on site performance metrics - Community: Evaluate how AI tools affect developer and user onboarding experiences #### OSPO - License Compliance: Review AI-generated code and content for licensing implications - Developer Support: Provide guidance on integrating AI tools while maintaining code quality #### Community - Contributors: Create resources for evaluating AI-assisted development tools - Maintainers: Establish guidelines for AI-generated contributions and reviews ## 🧪 Hypotheses - Premium hardware brands will continue losing market share to manufacturers with superior cost structures - AI companies will converge on advertising-supported models due to low subscription conversion rates - Consumer willingness to pay for AI subscriptions will remain below 10% regardless of feature improvements - Manufacturing control becomes the decisive competitive advantage in hardware categories ### 📊 Methodology - Track TV market share data across price segments over 5-year periods - Survey AI tool usage patterns and payment willingness across user segments - Analyze correlation between manufacturing integration and market leadership ### ❓ Questions - Will Sony's picture processing advantages survive the transition to TCL manufacturing? - Can OpenAI maintain ChatGPT quality while optimizing for advertising revenue? - What manufacturing capabilities would Apple need to control to avoid Sony's fate? ### 🔮 Future Research - Long-term viability of premium positioning without manufacturing control - Consumer AI adoption patterns beyond the early adopter phase - Integration strategies for AI tools in existing software ecosystems ### 💡 Implications - Practice: Evaluate vendor dependencies in core technology stacks - Policy: Consider manufacturing concentration risks in critical technologies - Education: Focus on sustainable competitive advantages beyond brand positioning - Funding: Assess business model viability for subscription-dependent AI startups ### 🧠 Learning Styles Assessment Reading level estimate: 12th grade #### 👀 Visual learners - Present: Market share charts, company logos, product images - Improve: Manufacturing flow diagrams, competitive positioning matrices #### 🔊 Aural learners - Present: Podcast format with conversational explanations - Improve: Technical concept explanations with audio analogies #### 🗣️ Verbal learners - Present: Clear definitions of industry terms, historical context - Improve: More analogies comparing tech industry to other sectors #### 🧩 Kinesthetic learners - Present: Product comparisons, hands-on TV recommendations - Improve: Interactive cost calculators, decision trees for buyers #### 🧠 Logical learners - Present: Clear cause-effect relationships, market progression timelines - Improve: Quantified competitive analysis, ROI calculations #### 🧑‍🤝‍🧑 Social learners - Present: Discussion format between hosts with different perspectives - Improve: Community prediction markets, reader polling #### 🧘‍♀️ Solitary learners - Present: Comprehensive individual analysis of each topic - Improve: Self-assessment tools for technology purchasing decisions #### 🌿 Naturalistic learners - Present: Industry ecosystem analogies, competitive evolution patterns - Improve: Sustainability implications of manufacturing consolidation ### 📊 Accessibility Assessment #### Screen reader semantics - Present: Clear heading hierarchy, descriptive link text - Improve: Alt text for charts and technical diagrams #### Keyboard navigation - Present: Accessible podcast player controls - Improve: Skip links for different topic sections #### Contrast and readability - Present: High contrast text on clean backgrounds - Improve: Ensure technical diagrams meet contrast requirements #### Media and captions - Present: Full transcript available for podcast content - Improve: Timestamped captions with speaker identification ### 🌍 DEIB Assessment #### Cultural breadth - Present: Global perspective on manufacturing shifts (Japan → Korea → China) - Improve: Include perspectives from emerging market manufacturers #### Inclusive language - Present: Neutral technical terminology - Improve: Define industry jargon more consistently #### Representation - Present: Discussion of global industry leaders across regions - Improve: Include diverse voices in technology analysis ### ✅ Logical Validity #### Strong reasoning - Deductive strength: Clear progression from manufacturing control to market dominance - Inductive strength: Pattern recognition across multiple industry examples - Causal reasoning: Direct link between cost structure and competitive advantage #### Fallacies - False dilemma: Suggestion that premium brands must choose between quality and cost-effectiveness - Appeal to tradition: Overemphasis on Sony's historical significance vs current capabilities #### Tone of voice - Overall tone: Conversational and analytical with occasional humor, maintains credibility while being accessible ### 🛡️ DARVO Analysis - Deny: No apparent denial patterns - Attack: No attacks on accusers - Reverse victim/offender: No victim/offender reversals detected - Emotional cues and rhetoric: Generally neutral analysis with appropriate skepticism ## 🎯 Conclusion The Sony-TCL deal and OpenAI's advertising pivot represent broader industry shifts where traditional competitive advantages - brand prestige and technological innovation - give way to manufacturing scale and sustainable business models. For technology professionals, these stories highlight the importance of controlling core technologies and understanding the economic realities that drive long-term market positioning. The implications extend beyond consumer electronics and AI to any industry where premium positioning must eventually confront scalable, lower-cost alternatives. The key lesson is that sustainable competitive advantage requires either unique technological control or business model innovation that creates genuine differentiation. ## 🧱 Refactor Appendix ### 📚 Literature Split Pad Purpose: Stage CEE units that become Literature notes. Split level: H3 ### [H1] Premium brands lose manufacturing control > [!quote] [The end of the Sony era in TVs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0fFa1wcreVQ) by [[David Pierce]], [[Nilay Patel]] via [[The Verge]]. Published 2025-01-27. --- ## Full Transcript [00:02] Welcome to the first cast flagship [00:04] podcast of the AI 8K and 5G ecosystem [00:07] again. Nei, [00:08] >> it's back, baby. [00:10] >> We're doing this again. [00:10] >> It's We're so close. [00:12] >> I'm your friend David Pierce. Neil Patel [00:14] is here. Hi, buddy. [00:16] >> Hey, man. [00:16] >> We have some local Nei again. We're [00:19] going to get to that later in the show, [00:20] but this is there there are very few [00:22] times that the Vergecast and Ni's [00:24] hometown intersect and we need to [00:26] celebrate them when they [00:27] >> Someone sent me a video of like an MLM [00:29] grifter in my hometown of Rine, [00:31] Wisconsin, making a video about how you [00:33] should come join his MLM grift. And the [00:35] video opened with, "I just bought an [00:36] office building in Rine, Wisconsin, [00:38] which is just one of the least [00:40] impressive things you can say." [00:43] And then it was like a commissionon [00:45] sales like boiler room sales gig. I [00:48] thought we should cover it. So, here it [00:49] is. That's the information I have for [00:50] you. [00:50] >> That's fantastic. I also love that your [00:52] brand now has extended to rine guy. Like [00:54] this. This is good. This is happening. [00:56] >> This has been. Yeah. What are you [00:57] talking about? The longer I live in New [00:59] York, the more I'm from Wisconsin. [01:02] >> That's just a dynamic that's been true [01:03] for 15 years. [01:04] >> Yeah, that's about right. All right. We [01:06] We have a lot to talk about today. We [01:08] have uh some TV business to attend to. [01:10] We have a lot of AI stuff. We have some [01:12] gadgety stuff. Brendan Carr, I assume, [01:15] remains Brendan Carr. Um, we should say [01:18] right at the top that we have some [01:19] potentially breaking news either while [01:21] we're recording or between when we [01:24] record and when you hear this. Um, [01:26] Neili, there are two big things [01:27] potentially happening like any minute [01:29] now, right? [01:30] >> Yeah. One thing is literally happening [01:31] as we speak, which is Sean Hollister is [01:34] in a courtroom where Epic and Google are [01:37] trying to convince a very skeptical [01:39] judge that they should be allowed to [01:41] settle their antitrust trial. uh which [01:43] if the settlement goes through, Google [01:45] will open up Android to alternative app [01:47] stores. Tim Sweeney will be very happy [01:49] and if it doesn't go through, the judge [01:51] will figure out what to do and Google [01:53] will probably make it even more costly [01:55] to do alternative app stores in some [01:56] way. The judge, from what we can tell, [01:59] uh from just reading Sean's live posts [02:01] on our website as we record, the judge [02:03] seems very skeptical of these two [02:05] companies uh saying that they've settled [02:07] their disagreements. We're going to see [02:09] what happens, but that that that news [02:10] might break as we record. So, we're [02:12] going to keep an eye on that one. [02:13] >> Yeah. And then the other one is um [02:16] apparently today, Thursday, January [02:18] 22nd, as we're recording, was a deadline [02:21] for the closing of the Tik Tok deal. Um [02:24] I will remind everyone that all of these [02:26] dates are made up. This deal is more or [02:29] less nonsensical and has been sort of [02:31] happening and not happening [02:32] simultaneously for a year now. Literally [02:35] a year. And uh I have no faith in any of [02:38] this happening. So this is like normally [02:40] when there's something like this going [02:41] on, we would debate whether you know do [02:43] we start the show late? Do we wait for [02:45] this to happen? I am fully done waiting [02:46] for anything to happen with the Tik Tok [02:48] deal. But it is possible that that will [02:50] happen officially sometime in the very [02:53] near future. The way I've come to [02:55] understand the United States Department [02:57] of Justice under Donald Trump and Pam [03:00] Bondi is that it's a hype house. [03:03] It is it is a it is a content factory. [03:06] speak on this. [03:07] >> So Pam Bondi is an influencer [03:09] >> and she's got a bunch of friends who all [03:12] think they're very attractive. You can [03:15] decide for yourself whether that's true. [03:17] And they make content together all day [03:19] long. And that is their purpose. [03:22] >> And they all do kind of guest star in [03:23] each other's things. [03:24] >> Yeah. They're all they're all in each [03:25] other's videos. They're doing collabs, [03:28] >> right? They there's phrases. They're [03:29] clearly marketing products whether or [03:32] not they've disclosed it as per the law [03:34] of the land. [03:36] It's a high pass. It's a It's a content [03:38] factory. It is in no way a functioning [03:41] law enforcement agency. And so the idea [03:43] that there's a deadline for the Tik Tok [03:44] deal to go through that if missed would [03:47] result in some penalty has nothing to do [03:50] with the operation of the hype house. [03:53] The hype house is just going to do hype [03:55] house stuff. And once you unlock this in [03:57] your brain, [03:58] >> right, that like they're just running a [04:00] slightly worse business than like Logan [04:02] Paul invented many many years ago and [04:06] that some people are in and some people [04:07] are out and no one will ever explain why [04:10] the why the fake breakup occurred. [04:13] Suddenly you're like, "Oh, this make [04:15] like the world is ending. This is very [04:16] dystopian." But the Tik Tok deadlines [04:19] have nothing to do [04:20] >> right [04:21] >> whatsoever. But that is like I I'm now [04:24] going to think about press conferences [04:26] as collabs from now on. That's a very [04:28] important new shift in my brain that [04:30] just happened. Uh it does make a lot of [04:33] things make a surprising amount of [04:35] sense. [04:36] >> Yeah. Like you guys pretended to be best [04:37] friends for 10 years and now you just [04:39] don't acknowledge that one another [04:40] exists because you moved out of the high [04:41] pass. That's what happened to you. [04:42] >> Yeah. [04:43] >> Sorry, Marjorie. The contract ended. [04:45] Yeah. [04:45] >> It's all it's all over. We're we're [04:47] we're bringing up the new set of stars [04:48] that have to pay less. You can get your [04:49] own brand deals now. That's pretty good. [04:51] That is pretty good. [04:53] >> It's it it is, by the way, the the [04:54] dominant thesis of how The Verge covers [04:56] the Trump administration. They're all [04:57] just influencers. And they they tweet [05:00] they try to tweet things into existence. [05:02] Donald Trump is trying to tweet his way [05:03] into owning Greenland. [05:05] >> Yep. [05:06] >> Uh and then he literally met the guy who [05:08] runs NATO and he's like, "You can't have [05:09] it." Now he's like, "I have concepts of [05:10] a deal." Like when when the social posts [05:12] hit reality, things go sideways. [05:15] >> But there are a bunch of content [05:15] creators. [05:16] >> It is increasingly true. Om. Malik uh [05:18] wrote a great blog this week basically [05:20] saying that we we've shifted to uh [05:24] velocity is authority is is the way he [05:26] termed it. That if you can just move [05:28] fast and say things often and loudly, [05:33] you will win. [05:34] >> And it's it's it is alarmingly how it [05:37] works. [05:38] >> And this is why and I'm dead serious [05:39] about this. We are about to unleash a [05:41] bot army of clip farmers to make this [05:43] show much more popular. And if you think [05:45] I'm joking, just wait because I'm I'm [05:48] motivated to play the game the way it's [05:49] designed to be played. [05:50] >> Yeah. [05:51] >> That said, I lack the capacity to make [05:54] bombastic claims about owning other [05:56] countries. [05:57] >> I just read to you today as somebody uh [06:00] to somebody on our team as Neili is in a [06:01] manic state about social platforms right [06:03] now. And I feel like I feel like I'm [06:05] about right on that one. [06:06] >> I just want to play the game the way [06:07] it's designed to be played. That's it. [06:09] And and that way is uh psychotic, but [06:13] we're going to do it. It's going to be [06:14] great. [06:14] >> Ver hype house. It's coming. Yeah, we're [06:16] doing this. Um, all right. So, you in [06:19] your, you know, manic state about [06:21] clipping everything. Um, you want to [06:23] talk about TVs. You you demanded that we [06:25] lead with some, I would say, both [06:27] important and surprisingly popular news [06:30] in the TV. [06:31] >> It's not surprisingly popular. It's it's [06:34] popular for all the reasons it should be [06:36] popular. [06:36] >> Okay. [06:37] >> Which is that Sony is a storied brand. [06:41] like the brand that initiates the most [06:44] people into gadgets or historically [06:46] initiated the most people into gadgets [06:48] and it is announced a deal to give up [06:52] control of its TV business to TCL in [06:54] some sort of joint partnership. [06:57] Very importantly, they've only announced [06:59] a memorandum of understanding, right? [07:01] >> Which means they're going to work on a [07:02] deal together, but they're announcing [07:04] the deal, so it doesn't have to be a [07:05] secret. of concepts of a plan. [07:07] >> It's 100% concepts of a plan, but the [07:09] outline looks like TCL will control 51% [07:12] of a new joint venture. Sony will [07:14] control 49% of it. They'll make Sony [07:16] Bravia TVs. The branding will remain the [07:18] same and then other stuff will happen [07:20] and various regulators around the world [07:21] will get to chime in. All the investors [07:24] get to chime in. Maybe they still go [07:25] through. But what they've announced is, [07:27] boy, we went from a world where Sony was [07:28] the dominant consumer electronics [07:30] company around, like the high-end one, [07:33] to a world where they're selling their [07:36] TV business to a Chinese competitor most [07:39] people have not heard of 5 years ago. [07:40] That's a it's a big story. It did huge [07:42] numbers on our site. It means a lot of [07:44] things to a lot of people. There's some [07:46] dynamics underneath it about TVs and [07:47] displays that I think are important, but [07:49] I think just saying, man, look at that [07:52] arc. Look at what Sony has become. [07:54] >> Yeah. Uh, I I think a lot of people just [07:56] have a lot of feelings about it. [07:57] >> I think that's true. I mean, and I think [08:00] storied is the right term for Sony as a [08:03] brand. I think at at this moment in [08:05] time, Sony is not a particularly [08:08] relevant electronics company. It It [08:11] makes the PlayStation. The PlayStation [08:12] is very important and very powerful and [08:13] very successful. That's a [08:15] >> It makes the camera sensors for a lot of [08:18] >> So, it's as a as a manufacturer, it's [08:20] very good. It It makes a lot of high-end [08:22] stuff. It makes a lot of camera sensors, [08:24] like you said. It makes expensive [08:26] televisions. It makes it makes Walkman [08:28] that are like weird mid-range Android [08:30] phones with high-end audio. But I think [08:32] it it's it's still true that Sony [08:35] occupies this very important place in [08:37] people's mind all the way back to like [08:38] the Walkman, which was a a seinal moment [08:41] in technology history. Uh [08:43] >> the Trinitron TV, right? Like the [08:47] highestend best CRT TVs you could buy [08:49] were Trinitrons. That was a brand that, [08:52] you know, when people moved to flat [08:54] panels like that went away, Sony never [08:56] really recovered in in big ways, but [08:59] like they were the cutting edge for up [09:02] into the mid 2000s. Like Sony was the [09:06] the dominant consumer electronics [09:08] company in a lot of ways. Steve Jobs [09:10] wanted to be Sony. Yeah. He took a lot [09:12] of inspiration from Sony and Sony's [09:13] founders. Famously, he toured the Sony [09:15] factories to get inspiration for Apple [09:17] factories like way in the 80s. And you [09:20] just see that they basically between [09:22] smartphones, their ideas about software [09:25] and I think crucially their ideas about [09:27] memory stick formats, Sony just lost the [09:30] plot. [09:30] >> Yeah. [09:30] >> And in particular got overtaken by [09:32] vastly cheaper first Korean companies, [09:35] Samsung and LG. And then as those [09:37] companies moved in the high-end, they [09:38] were overtaken by vastly cheaper Chinese [09:40] companies like TCL and Highense. And now [09:42] those companies are moving hand. And and [09:44] TCL is basically skipping the line. [09:46] They're like, we're just going to buy [09:47] this stuff from Sony and run the sprint. [09:49] I I just think there's something [09:50] important to say about that dynamic. [09:53] Like originally with Samsung and LG were [09:56] the cheaper foreign competitors to Sony, [09:58] right? Like there were the high-end [10:00] Japanese companies, Sony, Panasonic, [10:02] what have you. They got eaten by Korean [10:06] upstarts and then the Korean companies [10:08] moved way up. Samsung has basically [10:10] high-end brand now. LG is a high-end [10:12] brand. They all sell like billions of [10:13] products, so there's still cheap Samsung [10:15] products in the world, but they wanted [10:17] their brand to be at the top of top of [10:19] the chain. And now you have TLE and High [10:21] Sense, which started as budget brands, [10:23] and they're also on their way up. And I [10:26] just think it's fascinating that TL [10:27] skipping the line, and Sony's like, [10:29] "Yeah, we're out. We we're not going to [10:31] do this anymore." [10:31] >> So my immediate assumption about what [10:33] this deal was is TCL is going to make [10:37] TCL TVs and put the Sony name on them. [10:40] And that actually what TCL has is this [10:43] incredible manufacturing infrastructure. [10:45] It's able to make a lot of things very [10:46] quickly and very cheaply. And that is [10:48] how these Chinese companies have come [10:50] up, right? They they found ways to make [10:52] things at unbelievably low prices and [10:54] unbelievably huge capacity and have sort [10:56] of slowly gotten better over time to the [10:58] point where they've nearly caught up. [11:00] But the Sony brand, for all the reasons [11:01] you just said, is an objectively better [11:04] brand than TCL. And so they're just [11:07] buying an AM and now they can start [11:08] selling Sony TVs. But it sounds like [11:10] it's actually more complicated than that [11:12] and that there's some there's some [11:14] technology pairing here that actually [11:15] made sense. John Higgins wrote a great [11:17] piece for us about this and he's he [11:18] actually seems optimistic that that this [11:20] might lead to everybody's TVs getting [11:22] better somehow. [11:24] >> Yeah. You know, this is what I saying [11:25] about kind of the display industry being [11:27] in a really interesting spot. So there's [11:29] really only a handful of scaled display [11:32] panel manufacturers. There's Samsung, [11:34] there's LG, and there's TCL. Uh, and you [11:37] know, there are other ones, and other [11:39] companies have their own displays, and [11:40] they they talked about High Sense [11:41] exists, right? Um, but TCL is huge, and [11:44] they they make all the panels for Sony's [11:47] LCD TVs. And Sony has made this big bet [11:51] that many LED TVs will overtake OLED on [11:54] some timeline. And I don't know if [11:56] that's true, right? Like Sony Sony's [11:58] picture processing is the best in the [12:00] industry. You know, they they win all [12:02] the awards. John Higgins actually just [12:03] reviewed the Bravia A2 and he's like [12:05] this is beautiful. When I did the very [12:08] very technical King of TV shootout, it [12:10] won that award that A95L won it before [12:12] that. Like [12:14] >> their processing is what has made Sony [12:17] TVs the best for so many years. [12:19] >> Interesting. [12:19] >> It's their picture processing, their [12:20] motion handling, all that stuff. They [12:22] care about it a lot. They talk about it [12:24] a lot. But they have bought the panels [12:26] from Samsung. They have bought the [12:28] panels from LG. And increasingly they [12:30] have been buying the miniLEDD panels uh [12:32] from TCL. And so TCL's next generation [12:36] of miniLEDDs, [12:39] which we're going to review soon. It's [12:40] called the X11L. [12:42] Like that's where the state-of-the-art [12:44] is. So TCL is on the state-of-the-art on [12:46] the technology path Sony wants to be on. [12:50] >> So you kind of see, okay, well like well [12:52] we're buying the panels from this [12:53] company anyway. [12:55] Why don't we just enter a joint venture [12:56] with them? Because this is the bet we're [12:58] making on the future of TVs. I think [13:00] LG's bet on the future of everything [13:03] looks like OLED. [13:05] Samsung has a different riff on OLED. [13:07] They make and obviously I think Samsung [13:09] just wants everything to be frame TVs in [13:10] the end. Um, and so you just see you [13:12] have the three biggest panel [13:13] manufacturers making three different [13:16] technology bets, like radically [13:18] different technology bets. And Sony [13:21] isn't in any position to do that. It [13:24] doesn't make the panels. It doesn't [13:26] determine the technology. It's just sort [13:27] of like one of the most important [13:29] customers of TCL's panel division and [13:32] not Samsung's most important customer. [13:34] Like not by a long shot. So like where [13:37] does it go? What is this thing if all [13:39] all its real value is the brand which [13:41] everyone loves and the picture [13:42] processing which consistently wins like [13:44] every competition it's ever entered in? [13:47] And I I think the answer is okay fine. [13:48] We'll just continue to be a midsize [13:50] Samsung supp or Samsung customer. Yeah. [13:52] will get the benefit of working directly [13:54] with TCL. TCL is building an OLED [13:57] factory and maybe that's gonna happen. [13:58] And you're like, all that makes sense [14:00] and it's still pretty sad. [14:01] >> Why is it sad? What's sad about it? [14:03] >> I just think like the idea that Sony [14:05] isn't driving the cutting edge of the [14:08] foundational technology is sad in like a [14:10] specific way. Whereas, you know, camera [14:13] sensors, for example, Sony drives the [14:14] cutting edge of camera sensor [14:16] technology. There's a reason Apple puts [14:17] Sony sensors in so many of its phones [14:19] and always will for the time to come. [14:21] There's a reason that Sony Alpha cameras [14:23] are used everywhere. It's cuz Sony is [14:24] driving the cutting edge of sensor [14:26] technology there. There's other places [14:27] where Sony does that. I think the fact [14:29] that it no longer makes the display [14:31] technology means that it it's not going [14:34] to drive that. Maybe actually this deal [14:35] maybe one argument is a bunch of Sony [14:38] people will start to drive the cutting [14:40] edge of panel technology because they [14:42] will have direct access to the company [14:44] that's making the panels because it's [14:45] all just one joint venture now. So maybe [14:47] that's the move. But the idea that Sony [14:49] just ran around in circles doing dumb [14:52] stuff for like a decade and forgot to [14:54] build panels and forgot to invest in the [14:57] foundational technology is is a miss. [14:58] Like it this is a company that by all [15:00] rights should be driving the bleeding [15:03] edge here and just stopped. And so this [15:05] is the big one. I mean, it also feels [15:07] like a a part of this whole race to the [15:11] bottom in TVs that we've been in for a [15:13] long time where everything is getting [15:16] cheaper, everything is getting better, [15:19] but in a in a sort of, you know, [15:21] plateauing way. Uh, and the money to be [15:24] made is not actually in being the [15:26] company that makes and sells the best [15:28] panels. It's in like advertising. [15:31] And and I think we're just in this place [15:33] where I I was reading a great I think it [15:36] was MG Seagler wrote a whole thing [15:37] basically being like I wish Apple would [15:38] make a television which is a blog post [15:40] somebody writes every 15 minutes. [15:42] >> I've written that blog [15:44] >> and it was like he he made a bunch of [15:45] good arguments about like okay well you [15:47] know the the TV is the center of our [15:49] home. It's a very important piece of [15:50] technology. Why don't we care for it [15:52] more? [15:52] >> That's all true and good but it just [15:54] feels like the the market for that is [15:56] dead and gone and and there is no there [15:59] is no getting it back. So the idea of [16:00] like what if we tried hard and made it [16:02] great and thus could be a mainstream [16:05] valuable success as a result seems like [16:08] a dead idea to me. And so what you do is [16:10] you're you're either Samsung and you [16:11] either have this new idea about how to [16:13] sell me a bad television or you just [16:16] sell them cheaper and cheaper and [16:17] cheaper and cheaper and cheaper and you [16:18] try to find other ways to make money. [16:20] And if you're Sony and your business is [16:23] or was we make the best things and sell [16:26] it to you at a high price, like does [16:27] that does that exist in the TV business [16:29] anymore? [16:29] >> I don't think people care about what [16:30] their TVs look like. Like the idea that [16:32] the the A95L and the Bravi A2 [16:36] were the best looking TVs you could buy, [16:38] especially if you calibrate them. Like [16:40] you you say that to people and they're [16:41] like, "What does it cost $500?" Right? [16:44] Like it it just simply doesn't matter. [16:46] And you know, I think the mini LED bet [16:50] is you can make a much cheaper panel [16:52] that gets you like 80% of the way to the [16:55] OLED look, and it's still great for [16:57] sports, which is what people watch on [16:58] big TVs. I was going to say, is it [17:00] possible that the the true upside here [17:02] is not that it it it helps everybody [17:04] invest in, you know, bleeding edge [17:06] technology, but that what it actually [17:08] means is the $299 gigantic panel that [17:11] you buy in Walmart can be better because [17:13] they can steal some of Sony's tech. [17:15] >> Like on the on the level that like 10 [17:18] years from now the technology will [17:19] trickle down to the 299 panel. Like 10 [17:23] years from now the $300 TV is as good as [17:26] today's best TV. Yeah, sure. That's [17:28] probably true. That's That's probably [17:29] true today if you look backwards. [17:30] >> Sure, but I don't need it to be as good. [17:32] I'm just saying like, can I can TCL take [17:34] Sony's processing and make its own TVs [17:38] 6% better for free? [17:41] >> Maybe. [17:41] >> That's what I want. I don't give a [17:43] about all these expensive TVs. [17:44] >> That's the promise of a deal like this. [17:46] Um, again, memoranduming of [17:48] understanding. I don't know if [17:49] governments around the world are going [17:50] this happen. There's a lot of question [17:52] marks, right? Yeah. [17:53] >> Doing a a JV with a Chinese company, [17:55] right? uh in countries around the world. [17:57] Uh there's a lot of question marks about [17:59] whether Sony's investors or TE's [18:01] investors want this app. So, who knows? [18:03] But yeah, that that's the idea, right? [18:04] Is you get a full lineup of Sony Bravia [18:07] TVs at every price point that are good [18:09] using T- cells tech and T- cell's brand [18:11] is irrelevant to all of that. Or maybe [18:13] there's a split and at some price point [18:16] you go from T- cell to buying a Sony TV [18:18] and it's the same. I mean, the other [18:19] underlying piece of puzzle is they both [18:21] run Google TV. [18:22] >> Right. [18:22] >> Right. Right. So like the underlying [18:23] operating system is the same. Whereas [18:25] like T cell tried to do this with [18:26] Samsung, they'd be like so we have to [18:27] get rid of Tyson and then like they [18:30] would do like a seance or something to [18:32] like let [18:32] >> and then the world would get measurably [18:34] better the minute that happened. [18:36] >> And as somebody who runs uh Google TV on [18:38] a Sony Bravia today, um it's fine but [18:41] not great in the way that all TV [18:43] software is fine but not great. The [18:44] reason that TVs are able to be cheap is [18:46] that the software is full of upsells and [18:49] add-ons and advertising. And that's you [18:52] can have whatever feelings you want [18:53] about that, but the reason the TV has [18:55] been devalued is because they made the [18:57] price upfront really cheap and then they [18:59] make all that money back on weird [19:01] advertising and and stuff in the [19:03] interface. And there's no getting around [19:06] that anymore. That's just reality. One [19:08] of the reasons the high-end Bravas are [19:10] expensive is because I think Sony [19:11] assumes that you're just going to run [19:12] away from their software. Yeah, because [19:14] at that point you're you're a person [19:16] discerning enough to do the work to get [19:17] away from it. And they're like, "Well, [19:18] we have to." [19:19] >> Yeah. You have like a Collid Escape [19:20] streamer, which is my dream in life is [19:22] to get a Collid Escape streamer. [19:23] >> But actually, Collidescape has offered [19:24] me one. I was like, "I'll review it [19:25] while we have the baby and I'm on [19:27] leave." And that just never happened [19:28] because honestly, what was I thinking? [19:31] >> I still I'm still I was going to find it [19:32] one of these days. [19:33] >> Mike Bluey looks so sick right now. This [19:35] is great. [19:37] >> Um, all right. We We should We should [19:39] get to a lot of this AI news because [19:40] there's a lot of AI news to do. But um [19:43] does this change here's a last question [19:45] for you before we take a break. If [19:46] you're a person looking to buy a TV and [19:48] you want like a nice TV, does this [19:49] change the speed with which people [19:51] should go buy televisions? If you're [19:53] trying to buy the best TV right now, the [19:55] move is to go find a discounted Sony [19:58] A95L, [20:00] the last generation, which some people [20:02] say looks better than the Bravia 82, [20:04] >> which is, by the way, horrible name. [20:06] That's some people claim that's true. I [20:08] have an A95L, so I need to believe that [20:10] that's true. It's very important for me [20:11] to believe that's true, but that is it's [20:14] like by far the move because it's the [20:16] previous generation and they're only [20:17] selling the 77 because the Bravia A2 [20:20] doesn't come in that size. [20:21] >> But so if you can find one of the [20:23] smaller A95Ls on discount because it's [20:25] the previous generation, that's the [20:27] move. The Bravia A2 sometimes goes on [20:30] discount now, but it's not very much. [20:32] But that that would be my recommendation [20:33] because that is a great TV and you will [20:35] not regret it for one second. [20:36] >> You know what I haven't regretted is all [20:38] the horrible TCL TVs that I own. [20:41] No, I'm just kidding. I regret that [20:42] every single day of my life when I try [20:44] to open an app and it takes an hour. [20:47] Anyway, [20:47] >> how's your How's your Frame TV? [20:49] >> Uh, it's fine. It continues to take [20:51] three power button presses to turn it on [20:54] every day. Uh, and this is somehow the [20:56] life I have chosen to lead. Um, my [20:58] three-year-old toddler has figured out [20:59] which one is the power button, and even [21:01] he can't figure out when it turns things [21:03] on and off, and it annoys him every [21:05] single time. And I'm like, "Buddy, I get [21:06] it." Like, "Well, take it up with [21:08] Samsung." It it it it appears fully that [21:10] the person who was trying to write the [21:12] Homebridge integration for the Frame TV [21:14] was was like driven to a state of [21:16] madness and quit the project just [21:18] because of how the power button works. [21:19] Like you can't discern its state because [21:22] Samsung in its infinite wisdom decided [21:24] that power button should not turn things [21:25] on and off but enter a weird liinal [21:28] state where it shows you art. [21:29] >> And is that on or is that off? Literally [21:32] no one knows. Samsung everybody. All [21:34] right, we got to take a break then we're [21:35] going to come back to talk about some AI [21:36] news. We'll be right back. [21:39] Support for the show comes from L'Oreal [21:41] Group, using the latest advancements in [21:43] science and tech to create personalized [21:45] beauty solutions for all. The global [21:48] beauty leader recently introduced two [21:50] breakthrough technologies that bring the [21:52] power of light to hair care and [21:54] skincare. Light straight and multi-yler [21:56] and the new LED face mask, both of which [21:59] were recognized as CES 2026 innovation [22:01] award honores. Learn more about both [22:04] technologies on laurel.com. [22:07] L'Oreal Group, create the beauty that [22:09] moves the world. [22:15] >> All right, we're back. Uh, during the [22:17] break in which Neili and I go and do [22:19] many activities, which everyone likes to [22:21] think about, we had some some semi [22:24] meaningful Epic Google updates. Let's [22:26] just live blog our way through this [22:27] podcast. What's going on here? [22:28] >> Yeah, we're just going to read Sean's [22:29] update. Sean's live blogging from the [22:31] courtroom, which is always the most fun. [22:32] Um, so Epic's economist is in front of [22:35] the judge arguing that the settlement is [22:38] better than the injunction the judge [22:40] issued, which Epic argued for. You have [22:43] to remember Epic sued Google, [22:45] >> right? And won pretty handily. [22:46] >> And they won. So the judge is like, "Why [22:48] are you back here with a settlement when [22:49] you were asking me for all this stuff [22:50] that I gave you?" [22:52] >> And it seems to be very tense. And the [22:54] core idea, the core argument from Epic [22:57] right now seems to be this settlement is [22:59] forever. your ruling was for like three [23:02] years. So give me forever, we we'll [23:04] compromise and take forever versus three [23:05] years. The judge seems very skeptical of [23:07] all this. [23:08] >> Well, because the judge in this case has [23:09] been very interested this whole time in [23:12] making sweeping giant changes to [23:14] everything. [23:15] >> Like this has been this is the judge who [23:17] has been like, I am going to basically [23:19] tear Google open with my bare hands. And [23:22] uh I can see why he would be skeptical [23:25] of the idea that these two companies, [23:27] you know, figured it out amongst [23:28] themselves and actually everything's [23:29] fine. Yeah, I'll just quote the judge. I [23:31] questioned you about the need for the [23:33] duration period and you said it was such [23:35] a critical remedy that you advocated for [23:36] a period twice as long, [23:39] but now they want to throw out the [23:40] window for their settlement. I don't [23:41] know, man. [23:42] >> Sure. We'll see what happens. We'll [23:44] check in on it as we go. [23:45] >> Yeah, we'll check in. We got time. Um, [23:46] all right. So, right after we published [23:49] last week's podcast, um, OpenAI [23:52] announced that it was going to start [23:55] doing ads. Uh, is essentially how I can [23:58] put it. Um, OpenAI, Sam Alman, the CEO [24:00] of OpenAI, has been saying pretty loudly [24:03] over and over for the last couple of [24:05] years that he didn't want to do ads, [24:06] that ads was a last resort, that he [24:08] didn't think ads was the right thing for [24:09] chat GPT. And I would say our general [24:12] assumption was like, buddy, you'll come [24:14] around. Everybody eventually does. This [24:16] is the only idea anyone has. [24:18] >> Do the most lucrative business in the [24:19] history of the world. [24:20] >> Yeah, you you you'll do ads. [24:22] >> Google is the most lucrative business in [24:23] the history of the world. [24:24] >> Lo and behold, [24:25] >> yeah, [24:25] >> they're doing ads. Uh they also [24:27] announced they're doing uh they have a [24:29] cheaper chat GBT subscription called [24:30] chat GBT go that is eight bucks a month [24:33] as opposed to $20 a month. And then this [24:36] week Sarah Frier the CFO of OpenAI [24:38] published this memo of basically [24:41] priorities for 2026. And the number one [24:43] thing that they said was uh practical [24:46] adoption of AI. And I I would just say [24:49] this is a very long memo of all of the [24:51] things that OpenAI is up to. And it [24:54] boils down to essentially we have to [24:57] figure out how to make money because [24:59] everything is expensive. We have all of [25:02] these giant commitments to pay. I think [25:04] the number is $1.4 trillion just in [25:06] compute. There was a really great story [25:08] the other day about how OpenAI is paying [25:10] its staff more per capita than any [25:14] company in history. Like the the money [25:16] is just outrageous. And Sarah Frier is [25:19] basically like, "We need to figure out [25:20] how to make you use it in such a way [25:22] that we get money now." [25:24] >> Yeah. By the way, it's not just Sarah [25:25] Fryer saying this. Um, the World [25:27] Economic Forum is happening in Davos as [25:30] we speak. Another thing we'll live vlog [25:31] as the podcast goes on. Sure. A lot of [25:35] stuff happened at Davos. Uh, Trump [25:37] talked about Greenland. And so you might [25:39] have missed in the flurry of absolutely [25:42] chaotic news [25:44] Sasha Nadella in a conversation with [25:47] Black Rockck CEO Larry Frink saying a [25:49] telltale sign of a bubble is if all we [25:52] talk about is tech firms. We need to [25:53] talk about like everyone else using it. [25:55] And then he was like we need to make [25:58] sure that we change the work with this [25:59] technology so that people use it more [26:01] otherwise it's a bubble. There's a lot [26:03] of ways to read that. Nadal has been [26:04] saying that like variations of this for [26:06] a long time but he's basically like we [26:08] need to convince people to use AI more [26:09] otherwise it's a bubble that's not great [26:11] and use AI more dot dot dot at work [26:15] right like that that is a thing and [26:16] that's that's a piece of this open AI [26:19] memo too is they go into they talk all [26:22] of this big game about all of the things [26:24] that it's going to do and all of the [26:26] ways that it's meaningful to people and [26:27] all of the ways that everybody is using [26:28] it to plan travel and then there's a [26:29] it's like a new paragraph and then it's [26:31] like and then they took it to work and [26:33] it's Oh, right. AI is a SAS business. [26:37] Like, do not ever forget it. [26:40] >> For all the things they're going to tell [26:41] you, AI is a SAS business. It is a [26:44] corporate technology. [26:46] >> So, but now they're launching ads [26:48] because they don't know if it's a good [26:49] enough SAS business. [26:51] >> This is the thing. They are begging you [26:53] to take it to work so that your boss [26:55] will pay for it. But then, you're you're [26:57] exactly right. The flip side of this is [26:59] um they desperately need a lot of [27:01] people. Like there's no question that [27:02] the adoption of these chatbots has been [27:04] huge. Tons of people use it. Every [27:05] number you see is gigantic, right? Like [27:07] a massive number of people are using [27:09] these in some meaningful way every [27:11] month. Um but there's been a bunch of [27:13] studies recently that suggest that some [27:15] like small singledigit percentage of [27:17] those people are or are even willing to [27:21] pay for access to those chatbots. Um [27:24] it's like I've seen numbers I've seen [27:25] numbers like 8% of people say they would [27:27] ever be willing to pay. I've seen [27:29] numbers that say 3% of people say they [27:30] ever willing to be pay. And so it's like [27:32] to go from chat GPT is fun to talk to [27:34] and seems like kind of my friend to I [27:36] will pay $20 a month for access to chat [27:39] GPT is such a massive barrier for people [27:43] that I I think all of these AI companies [27:46] are finally coming around to realizing [27:48] $20 a month is like a hell of a lot of [27:50] money. [27:51] >> Yeah. [27:51] >> And it's going to be a problem for them. [27:53] I'll just bring you back to uh the CEO [27:56] of Razer on Decoder at CS saying 20 [27:59] bucks is 20 bucks even though he's a [28:01] billionaire. Like [28:02] >> yeah, [28:02] >> first of all, there's pin drop silence [28:04] in the room when he said that. [28:05] >> I don't know, man. Like first of all, [28:07] the $20 price is kind of a historical [28:09] accent. Like opening I believe just like [28:11] picked the number out of a hat. [28:13] >> Yep. [28:13] >> So, [28:14] >> and they've basically said as much. [28:15] >> Yeah. They're like, "We picked a number. [28:17] Is this is this the one?" So, you know, [28:18] new products at lower prices, new [28:20] products at higher prices. It's just [28:22] what mature businesses do. [28:23] >> Y [28:24] >> but they're staring down Google at [28:27] scale, delivering most of the value [28:32] for free in AI overviews. As good or bad [28:35] as you think AI overviews are, their [28:37] competitor is free and readily [28:39] available. We're going to talk about [28:40] Apple in a second. Apple's going to have [28:43] a version of Siri powered by some riff [28:46] on Gemini that will be free on your [28:48] phone. Google's obviously going to do [28:50] that on Android. Open has to be better [28:52] or cheaper or faster or something in [28:56] order to get the scale to make their [28:57] business work. And I bet what they're [28:59] going to end up at is the same as Google [29:01] free with ads. [29:02] >> Yeah. And there's a reason they are [29:05] hiring so many people from Meta. Like it [29:08] is just a flood of people from Meta [29:10] going to OpenAI. So much so that I I [29:12] have been told that like Meta executives [29:15] have to address it at virtually every [29:16] all hands inside of [29:17] >> Oh wow. like another person has gone to [29:20] open ad because they are, you know, [29:21] they're paying more per capita than any [29:22] tech company in the world. Like they're [29:24] paying these huge numbers and they're [29:25] just bringing all over all these [29:27] executives from Meta who are good at [29:29] products, who are good at advertising, [29:30] who have those relationships. Are they [29:32] good at it yet? No. But they certainly [29:34] are hiring the talent at as fast of a [29:37] clip as you might think they're hiring [29:38] the core AI talent. [29:40] >> That's really interesting. Yeah. And I [29:41] think they are very much doing this in a [29:44] meta style way too, right? Sam Alman has [29:47] said uh that he is inspired by the way [29:49] Instagram does ads where he actually has [29:52] found products that he's bought that he [29:54] liked that he never would have found [29:55] otherwise. And like [29:56] >> is that praise for Instagram or is that [29:57] just everyone's a sucker? [29:59] >> It's just everyone's [30:00] >> like I bought a lot of junk on Instagram [30:02] and I'm not like yes this is the future [30:03] of commerce. I'm like I am such an idiot [30:05] every day. I'm I'm an idiot. [30:07] >> Yep. I have I have bought a lot of [30:09] stupid things on Instagram and I guess [30:11] right now it's Quint the the like [30:14] shopping or the the clothing company is [30:16] just all over my feeds. Just Quint [30:18] everywhere you look. [30:19] >> Interesting. [30:20] >> And I keep asking Anna. I'm like is [30:21] Quint good? And she's like I don't know. [30:22] I bought something on Instagram. We'll [30:24] see. [30:25] >> Yeah. It's like that that one company [30:26] Vori is a a creation of Instagram. [30:28] >> Yes. [30:29] >> And if you're Sam Alman you shouldn't be [30:30] like I need to create more of that. It's [30:32] like wow. Everyone's a sucker. [30:33] >> Yeah. [30:33] >> They are very soft. I don't mean to if [30:35] you if you're doing it, you're fine. But [30:37] like that that's what Instagram created [30:39] and that's what he wants, right? Is new [30:41] brands can launch on this platform. [30:43] >> But the pitch is very much like it it [30:48] seems mutually beneficial, right? Mark [30:49] Zuckerberg has been giving this speech [30:50] for damn near two decades now, right? [30:52] That if we can find the people who want [30:55] to reach you with the product that you [30:57] want, that actually we can have [30:58] something that's really great. And and [31:00] they've been singing the praises of [31:01] targeting advertising for this reason [31:03] for forever. that actually people want [31:04] targeted advertising because it's more [31:06] relevant and it'll expose them to [31:07] products they like and on and on and on [31:09] and it's a really really good business [31:11] for Meta like that you just can't deny [31:13] it has worked unbelievably well for Meta [31:15] to do this um and even some of the [31:18] principles of OpenAI's advertising plans [31:21] sound a lot like Meta um in the ways [31:24] that are both sort of interesting and [31:26] devious right like it says we never sell [31:28] your data to advertisers that's one of [31:30] the things in their blog post um you [31:32] know who also doesn't sell data to [31:33] advertisers is Google and Meta. That's [31:36] just like they don't that's not how they [31:38] make their money. That's not what they [31:39] do. They use all the information they [31:41] have [31:41] >> to put the ads that the company they [31:43] don't need to sell your data to do that. [31:45] >> Yeah. [31:45] >> The data is their moat, [31:46] >> right? [31:47] >> Yeah. [31:47] >> Yeah. So, all of this like it's it's all [31:49] just ridiculous. You control how your [31:51] data is used. We don't optimize for time [31:52] spent. Like all this stuff, it's all [31:54] fine and good. The thing that really [31:56] kills me is have you seen the picture of [31:58] the ad that they used as the example? [32:01] >> I have not. Let me let me let me open [32:03] this and look at [32:03] >> so it's it's in it's in the story that [32:05] we wrote uh about ads coming to chatbt [32:07] there's a there's a picture at the [32:08] bottom [32:08] >> this is horrible [32:09] >> that is an example and just if if you [32:11] can't see this or haven't seen it ni [32:14] just describe the screenshot you're [32:15] looking at right now [32:15] >> so someone's obviously searching for [32:17] travel they appear to be looking at [32:18] Santa Fe New Mexico so chat GBT is [32:21] answered Santa Fe New Mexico is often [32:23] called the city different it talks about [32:25] the city and then there's what can only [32:27] be described as a sponsored tweet below [32:29] it [32:30] >> like that's what it looks like [32:31] >> yep and it says, "Here's the name of a [32:32] hotel. These options may help if you're [32:34] planning a trip to Santa Fe." And [32:35] there's a link and then you open the [32:37] link and then it's like a chatbot about [32:39] the ad. Is that how else would you [32:42] describe this? And all this seems like [32:44] the single worst experience you could [32:46] have with advertising. [32:47] >> It also takes up I don't know 40% of the [32:50] usable real estate of the screen. This [32:52] one ad uh with sponsored results for [32:55] what you might want to do in San in [32:57] Santa Fe. [32:58] >> This is bad, dude. So I know how [32:59] advertisers think especially advertisers [33:02] and product like this. The goal and this [33:04] is like broadly speaking the thing [33:06] that's happening to the web industry. [33:10] Banners and boxes are bad. No one likes [33:11] them. Everyone blocks them. So the goal [33:13] is to make the advertising look exactly [33:15] like the content you were there for in [33:17] the beginning. This is why Instagram [33:19] reels or Tik Tok their ad units are [33:21] great. [33:22] >> Yep. [33:22] >> Because you're scrolling. You'd scroll. [33:24] And now you're just watching another [33:26] video in the same exact way you're [33:27] watching a video to begin with. Maybe [33:29] you want to move on, maybe you don't. [33:30] Whatever. The advertising works because [33:33] it's quote unquote native to the [33:34] experience you're having. This is why [33:36] like pre this is why the ads in the [33:38] podcast feed are annoying, right? [33:40] Because they interrupt you. By the way, [33:40] you can subscribe to the Verge to get ad [33:42] free podcast disclosure. We saw [33:44] >> also why advertisers want the hosts to [33:46] read the ads, right? Like it's it's all [33:47] that the the more seamless it feels, the [33:50] more it feels like the content, the [33:51] happier everybody is. [33:52] >> The more integrated you are, the better. [33:53] And so you can see that thinking arrive [33:55] in the screenshot where they're like, [33:57] "Well, you're chatting now. You should [33:59] chat with an ad." And it's like, "Nope, [34:02] that's that's not right. That's not [34:04] actually the thing I wanted." I bet they [34:06] iterate off of this really quickly. [34:07] >> I sure hope so, cuz I think you're right [34:09] that this this feels like both bad UX [34:12] and like a bizarrely loud ad unit that [34:15] is not what they want. Like this is [34:18] borderline popup ad vibes in this. It's [34:22] not that bad. It is very much like why [34:24] do you think I want to chat with the ad? [34:28] Like that's just a question mark of a [34:31] like I don't I don't understand the user [34:32] experience at all. Like here are some [34:34] hotels you might look at. Here's a [34:36] picture of one that is sponsored. Like [34:38] click on this and you can go to a web [34:40] page. That's very everyone understands [34:42] that. Click on this and like now you can [34:45] now you're not even looking at another [34:46] different picture. It's just another [34:48] text box. But inside of this text box, [34:50] we just relentlessly try to sell you a [34:52] hotel makes no sense to me. [34:56] >> Now you can talk to this hotel about [34:58] other hotels and [34:59] >> they'll get there. Like I said, it's all [35:00] meta people. They're going to figure [35:02] this out so fast. [35:03] >> They will. And I I think this is clearly [35:06] coming everywhere, right? Like the the [35:08] this is the business model that's going [35:10] to work. [35:10] >> Google's response to this was saying [35:12] Gemini would not have ads. And I think [35:14] they're able to say that because they [35:16] still operate search and they're putting [35:18] ads and AI overviews and they have all [35:20] this other surface area to monetize [35:23] before they get to we're going to [35:25] monetize Gemini with ads, [35:26] >> right? Google has the ability to use all [35:29] of the money that it burns on Gemini to [35:32] make its other more lucrative products [35:33] better. Y [35:34] >> right. And this is this is like the Meta [35:36] story too, right? that Meta is all of [35:38] the investment in AI for Meta will work [35:41] because it will make ad targeting on [35:43] Facebook and Instagram better and it [35:46] will make it possible for them to just [35:48] make ads for you out of whole cloth. A [35:50] thing we've talked a bunch about, right, [35:51] that Mark Zuckerberg's big idea is you [35:53] will just type in a prompt or for a [35:56] customer that you want or you'll upload [35:57] a picture of a product that you have and [35:59] it will do all of the creative, all of [36:00] the targeting, all of the everything for [36:02] you. Like if if you can build a chatbot [36:05] that you can give away and lose money on [36:07] in order to make all of that work, [36:09] handily worth it. [36:10] >> Yeah, you're doing great. Again, my [36:12] prediction at the top of the year, [36:14] spiciest prediction was open would not [36:15] survive the year in in a way that is [36:17] recognizable to us and maybe the ad [36:19] stuff will work. Maybe it'll survive. I [36:21] I just see all of this as oh, it's time [36:23] to be a real company. And right in the [36:26] background of that is the Elon Musk [36:28] versus Sam Alman lawsuit saying OpenAI [36:32] lied is supposed to be a nonprofit. [36:35] There's a lot of spicy revelations from [36:38] the first document dumps of discovery in [36:40] there including like Ilia Sutzk saying [36:43] AGI is impossible and the timelines that [36:44] open promising it board. Just a lot in [36:47] there. And so the pressure on this [36:50] company to overcome all of its obstacles [36:53] while it has wellunded competitors that [36:54] have real businesses already. [36:56] >> Yeah, that that's a storyline for the [36:58] year. [36:58] >> Yeah, agreed. Um, speaking of one of [37:00] those wellunded competitors, I think [37:02] next to all of this is the very clear [37:05] idea that one very good way to make [37:06] money on AI is to sell people hardware [37:08] if you can get people to just pay you a [37:10] bunch of money for a gadget. Maybe I'm [37:13] I'm not saying it's right. I'm saying [37:14] it's the theory. Maybe [37:16] >> ads will definitely work because people [37:18] will look at ads. But the idea of I [37:21] think a you can make people pay you for [37:23] hardware and b people who pay you for [37:25] hardware are also going to be by [37:27] definition more likely to then pay you [37:29] for the subscription required to use the [37:31] hardware. So like again you can see the [37:33] pitch. I don't know if it'll work but [37:35] you can see the pitch. But the news this [37:36] week uh there was a report from the [37:38] information that Apple is working on an [37:40] AI wearable which of course it is. Um, [37:44] but the the news was that it's going to [37:46] look like an Air Tag. And let me just [37:49] explain to you the reasons I'm [37:50] suspicious that this is a real thing [37:51] that exists. This is from our story [37:53] about it. The rumored device is [37:54] reportedly the size of an Air Tag with a [37:56] thin flat circular housing made from [37:57] aluminum and glass. Fine. Here are the [37:59] things that are supposedly inside of [38:01] this Air Tag sized thing. Are you ready [38:03] for this? [38:04] >> A standard lens and a wideangle lens. [38:06] So, two camera lenses. Uh, three [38:08] microphones, a speaker, a physical [38:10] button, and wireless charging. [38:12] If you could put all that in an Air Tag, [38:14] you will have accomplished like an [38:16] honest to god scientific miracle. [38:19] Well, [38:19] >> sure. I Who knows if that sizing is [38:21] accurate. I I don't know, man. Maybe [38:23] they're Maybe they mixed up a Mag Safe [38:24] Pocket Air Tag. [38:27] >> I don't [38:27] >> like all that stuff is in the next iPad, [38:30] not in the next. This is like when they [38:33] were making the iPhone and the first [38:35] prototype of the iPhone was an iPod with [38:38] numbers arranged around the click wheel [38:40] like a standard telephone. [38:42] >> Yeah. [38:42] >> Like I think Apple makes stuff just to [38:45] just to rigorously prove that some [38:47] things are bad ideas, [38:49] >> you know? Like they're like we ran that [38:51] one to ground. Like let's make a rotary [38:54] phone like an iPod. We we did it. We [38:56] made one. Then we burned it and we never [38:58] are going to talk about it again. And I [39:00] I get the feeling that their riff on the [39:03] humane pin is more in that zone because [39:05] the one thing Apple knows about you is [39:07] that you have an iPhone in your pocket. [39:08] >> Yes, they are never going to displace [39:10] the iPhone in your pocket if they have [39:11] to. So I think if you are that company [39:13] and you assume that you have an iPhone [39:15] in your pocket that you Apple have [39:17] unique access to all the capabilities of [39:19] which it will not give to any other [39:20] companies, this is the kind of device [39:22] that you would make because the only [39:24] thing your phone can't do is be on your [39:28] body collecting data all the time, [39:30] right? And this is like the grand theory [39:32] of every AI wearable is we're going to [39:34] put the microphone somewhere where it is [39:36] always in play so that you can get more [39:39] data from it and then the AI can do more [39:41] useful processing. That's the whole [39:43] plaude pin thing is like just it'll be [39:45] on your it'll be around your neck and [39:47] that way it'll hear all of your [39:48] conversations better than the phone [39:50] that's in your pocket. So, if you're [39:51] Apple, like, sure, take a thing and give [39:53] it a bunch of microphones and a bunch of [39:55] cameras and then just let it record and [39:57] dump all of that onto your phone [39:58] >> and make that thing round like you're [40:00] wearing flare at at Applebees. Like, [40:04] what is the idea here? [40:06] >> It's a fair question. This is what this [40:08] is what I don't know is I think the [40:10] funniest thing about all of this to me [40:11] is that we have landed on one killer app [40:16] for all of the recording stuff and it's [40:18] summarizing meetings. Have you noticed [40:20] this? Yeah. Every AI app that exists [40:23] ends up supporting automatic meeting [40:25] capture because it's pretty easy to plug [40:27] into Google Meet or Zoom or Teams or [40:29] whatever and it's pretty easy to [40:31] summarize a bunch of stuff and pull out [40:32] some action items and that is medium [40:34] useful to lots of people. And so this is [40:36] this is the killer app for consumer AI [40:38] wearables somehow. [40:39] >> And a lot of and a lot of it sort of [40:41] implies the rest of your life should [40:43] work like meetings. [40:44] >> Yes. Yes. [40:45] >> Like at at the end of every [40:47] conversation, you should generate action [40:48] items. And it's like, I don't know, man. [40:50] Like, [40:50] >> yeah. [40:51] >> Most conversations in my life right now, [40:52] the action item is like, is the baby [40:54] alive? [40:55] >> We should keep the baby alive. [40:58] >> Wait, so are you are you of the mind [41:00] that Apple is not going to be sort of [41:02] actively interested in doing an AI [41:04] wearable because it's so invested in the [41:06] phone? I think Apple's entire business [41:10] is the iPhone and selling services on [41:13] the iPhone and taking 30% of Candy Crush [41:15] on the iPhone. Anything that disrupts [41:18] that business, Apple will not do [41:20] regardless if you think Apple is the [41:22] best at disrupting itself as any [41:24] whatever. They're never going to touch [41:25] the iPhone business. They that is a [41:27] monopoly through and through. That is [41:29] how they have run it. May maybe Tim Cook [41:31] steps down and whoever it is is the new [41:33] CEO and they're like we have to [41:36] cannibalize ourselves first like Steve [41:37] dropped. But that's not happening today. [41:39] Tim Cook is the CEO today. Mr. Supply [41:42] Chain is the CEO of Apple today. They [41:44] are not going to introduce a product [41:46] that disrupts the iPhone in any [41:47] meaningful way today. If you can leave [41:49] your house without a phone, the only [41:50] device you're going to leave your house [41:52] with is an Apple Watch. and they will [41:54] roll more more of these features into [41:56] the watch before they make another thing [41:58] that can disrupt their existing [41:59] businesses. So, I just I don't buy it. I [42:01] do think that they're caving. I think [42:02] they're realizing that the industry and [42:04] the consumer has moved on beyond their [42:06] ideas on AI. Like, if you'll remember [42:08] when they first announced Apple [42:10] Intelligence like a year or a half ago, [42:12] yeah, they're like, "We're not going to [42:13] do a chatbot. We don't need to do a [42:14] chatbot." And like the rumor is Siri's [42:16] just going to be a chatbot now. [42:18] >> Yep. [42:19] >> I I think they realize like that is a [42:20] form factor that works. That is a user [42:22] experience that works. we're just going [42:24] to let people push the button and talk [42:25] to Siri the same way that they're [42:26] talking to chat GPT today. That's a way [42:29] bigger threat to anything OpenAI will [42:31] make. Like the hugest threat to OpenAI [42:33] is a thing that works like chat GBT will [42:36] just exist on the phone and they'll get [42:38] sherlocked. [42:39] >> Yeah. And I can wake it up with my voice [42:41] instead of having to unlock my phone and [42:43] open an app. Like that's that just it it [42:46] can move it two layers further up on [42:48] your device and that makes it [42:50] essentially [42:51] >> Will Apple be good at this? I I don't [42:53] know the answer to that, but you know [42:54] all the rumors are going to be using [42:55] Google's models. Gemini is pretty good [42:57] at this. [42:58] >> There's a lot there. But the reason [43:00] people are excited about AI wearables [43:02] and voice and all that is because it's a [43:04] form factor shift. It's a user interface [43:06] shift. And that is typically where you [43:08] get to disrupt the incumbent. [43:11] And I just don't see any of the stuff [43:12] disrupting the iPhone because the [43:14] Apple's ability to build it into the [43:16] iPhone, Google's obvious ability to [43:18] build it into Android is right there. [43:20] And yeah, [43:21] >> no one made a thing that was good enough [43:23] to beat Apple to the punch. [43:25] >> Yeah, [43:25] >> maybe Open Eye will ship that thing this [43:27] year, right, John? They've promised that [43:29] we're going to see it by the end of this [43:30] year. [43:32] >> I don't know, man. We We'll see. [43:33] >> I'm I'm skeptical of all of this, [43:35] including and maybe especially the [43:37] timelines. Uh but with all of that said, [43:39] I'm going to make you play a game that [43:41] you're gonna hate. Are you ready for [43:42] this? [43:42] >> Let's do it. So, okay, we we we have the [43:46] rankomatic which our producer Travis [43:48] continues to heroically iterate his vibe [43:51] coding on. And what I want to do right [43:53] now is I want to rank the ideas about AI [43:57] gadget form factors. I think we we've [43:59] basically seen six ideas or rumored [44:02] ideas about what an AI forward gadget [44:05] might look like. Okay. And you and I, [44:08] but mostly you, uh, are going to rank [44:11] all of these things that you hate from [44:13] number six to number one, and you're [44:16] going to have to decide which one is the [44:17] best form factor for an AI gadget. [44:19] >> You good at this? [44:20] >> Oh, boy. Oh, do I do I get to see the [44:22] whole list first? [44:23] >> I'll read you the whole list. I'm going [44:24] to I'm going to share my screen. If [44:25] you're watching this on YouTube, you can [44:26] you can see us mess with the rankomatic. [44:29] Uh, but [44:31] >> the hardest version of this game is [44:33] where you don't tell me what's coming [44:34] next. [44:35] Oh, you want we can you want a blind [44:37] rank? No, this is good. You can have all [44:39] six and we'll just go from here. So, the [44:41] six I will say are um a pin, which I [44:44] think is is sort of self-explanatory, [44:46] whether it's the Humane AI pin or [44:48] something else that you kind of wear on [44:50] your chest like that. Um a pen, which is [44:52] what the the Johnny IV open AI thing is [44:55] rumored to be like an honest god just [44:57] pen. [44:58] >> Yeah. Sam Wman is a claims to be a pen [45:00] nerd. Although true pen nerd Liz Leato [45:02] on our team thinks he's a poser. [45:04] Correct. Say it for the record. [45:06] >> Um, earbuds, which we've heard a lot of [45:08] rumors about. Um, AirPods with a camera [45:10] is a thing we've heard some rumors [45:12] about. Open AI and Johnny IV might also [45:14] be doing Airbuds. AirPods stuff. Who [45:17] knows? Um, a pendant, some something you [45:20] like actually wear as a necklace, kind [45:22] of like the friend that we saw. Um, what [45:25] I'm calling rectangle, which is just [45:27] something that is kind of smartphoneish. [45:29] Uh, the the Rabbit R1 is probably the [45:31] most known. Do phones count as [45:33] rectangle? [45:34] >> What's that? [45:35] >> Do phones count as rectangle? [45:36] >> No. Phone is phone is is excluded from [45:39] this game. [45:40] >> Okay. [45:40] >> Um, [45:41] >> so rectangle is like cut down, not [45:43] phone. [45:44] >> Phone phone has been like phone's jersey [45:46] is already in the rafters. You know what [45:47] I mean? Like we've we've retired phone [45:49] as the best. [45:51] >> But what's the line of rectangle? Like [45:53] if I buy a mid-range Android phone, put [45:55] the Gemini icon [45:58] specific AI device, but it is kind of [46:02] the shape of a phone. It's a rectangle. [46:05] That's right. [46:07] >> Phone. Okay, fine. Uh, and then the last [46:09] one is glasses. [46:10] >> So, we have pin, pen, earbuds, pendant, [46:13] rectangle, and glasses. And you're going [46:16] to rank them six to one. [46:18] >> All right. Let me let me just ask a few [46:20] more questions, [46:21] >> please. Am I ranking the way that I [46:24] think the Verge should rank things, [46:26] which is based on the products as they [46:27] exist today, or the way that the [46:30] audience wants us to rank things, which [46:32] is how the products exist in their hopes [46:34] and dreams? I think for this one, we're [46:36] going to do hopes and dreams because [46:38] none of this exists in like it's all [46:40] they're all tied for last in in the [46:42] world in which we live. It's just it's [46:44] just a big bundle of sixth place. But I [46:47] think what I'm going for is like what is [46:49] what is sort of in theory the best idea [46:52] in your mind right now for how to do [46:55] this kind of device. Which means you [46:56] have to grant me two premises. Again, I [46:58] told you you're going to hate this game. [46:59] >> I hate this game. [47:00] >> Premise number one is there is a version [47:02] of this that is a good idea. I need you [47:03] I need you to hold that idea in your [47:05] head. [47:05] >> All right. All right. [47:06] >> At least one of these is a good idea. [47:08] And then premise number two is AI [47:11] deserves a dedicated device. So you you [47:13] don't you have to agree with both of [47:14] those things and then we're going from [47:15] there. Okay. So, in the hopes and dreams [47:18] world, [47:19] >> yeah, [47:20] >> which I will again insist that I choose [47:23] not to live in. [47:25] >> Understood. [47:26] >> It's number one is obviously glasses, [47:28] right? [47:28] >> Interesting. [47:29] >> With a bullet like if you get the true [47:31] AR glasses with the AI overlays and the [47:35] it's it's obvious. [47:36] >> Even though it completely violates Nei's [47:39] theory of wearable Well, in [47:41] hopes and dreams world, it has such [47:43] staggering utility that it overcomes [47:45] both fiddliness and most importantly [47:48] face. Okay, so Neil's chart of wearable [47:52] as you know is utility is on [47:54] one axis and fiddliness is on another [47:56] and fiddliness encompasses things like [47:57] how often I have to charge it and [47:58] there's a massive fiddliness penalty uh [48:01] for face right and so traditional [48:04] glasses [48:06] huge penalty for face but massive [48:07] utility low fiddliness otherwise if you [48:11] make true AR glasses that are AI enabled [48:13] that can see the world around you and [48:15] provide useful information in your line [48:17] of sight OB obviously number one. [48:20] >> Okay. [48:20] >> I do not believe that pro that product [48:22] will exist in any time scale that we [48:25] live in. [48:25] >> I think that's right. But I I do agree [48:27] that even for for perspective reasons [48:29] alone, the the idea that it can see what [48:32] I see makes glasses more powerful than [48:35] any of these other things [48:36] >> and it can layer digital information [48:38] over the real world. [48:38] >> Yeah, that fine. Many many many [48:42] questions. Who is in control of the [48:43] digital information overlaid on the real [48:46] world? Is it Mark Zuckerberg? cuz that [48:48] sucks. But you know that's life, right? [48:52] Who knows? [48:52] >> No, I think that's actually I think you [48:54] just perfectly described both why [48:55] everyone is chasing glasses and why you [48:59] and I are both very skeptical of them [49:01] being the thing that we want them to be [49:02] anytime soon, if not ever. Because [49:05] you're right that the the sort of [49:06] perfect end state is spectacular and [49:10] kind of unparalleled in what it can in [49:12] theory do. And the number of possible [49:16] potholes on the way to get there is just [49:19] virtually infinite. [49:20] >> Yeah. It again, if you were asking me [49:23] about reality, I would put this at like [49:24] six. [49:25] >> Yeah. No, we're we're going pure hopes [49:26] and dreams here. All right. So, glasses [49:28] number one with a bullet. Let's work our [49:29] way down. What's number two? [49:31] >> Uh I think number two is earbuds. [49:32] >> I I I agree with that. [49:34] >> Right. These this is like what are the [49:36] things that are This is my theory of [49:37] wearable That's what we're [49:38] talking about here, right? Where is [49:40] where is the least amount of fiddliness [49:42] and the most amount of utility and [49:44] earbuds already meet that bar for so [49:46] many people. You add in a bunch of AI [49:47] features, you're winning the game. [49:49] >> Mhm. [49:50] >> So, but you don't get the big benefit of [49:52] the glasses overlaying digital in the [49:55] real world. [49:55] >> I had these two as my top two as well. [49:57] And I think I I would almost make the [49:59] case to put earbuds number one just [50:01] because they are such a less obtrusive [50:03] thing. And as somebody who wears [50:05] glasses, the idea of wanting to wear [50:06] glasses [50:08] feels essentially impossible. But I do [50:11] think you're right that the the upside [50:13] of screen, if we get all the way to it, [50:16] probably outweighs the upside of what [50:19] you can do with earbuds. [50:20] >> Yeah, that's kind of that's kind of my [50:22] feeling. Again, this is hopes and [50:23] dreams. Although, I will say like AI [50:25] translation on the various earbuds that [50:27] support it very very empowering for a [50:30] lot of people today. [50:31] >> Yep. So this is a little less hopes and [50:33] dreams. Like the products exist today in [50:35] a way that works for people. That's not [50:37] something you can say of glasses. But [50:38] again, David's insisting that I live in [50:39] a hopes and dreams world. I'm like this [50:41] close to selling you a shitcoin. Like [50:43] buy let's let's pump some crypto while [50:45] we're doing hopes and dreams. Have you [50:46] heard about NFTTS? [50:49] >> At some point we'll play the game of [50:51] which one of these is most likely to [50:52] reach its potential. And I think earbuds [50:54] are much more likely to reach that [50:56] potential than glasses are. [50:57] >> Yeah. [50:58] >> But that potential is much lower. [50:59] >> Totally agree. Yeah. [51:01] >> Um and the the challenges are much [51:02] easier. [51:03] >> Yeah. Um All right. What's third place? [51:06] >> Everything else in my mind is sort of [51:07] tied for six. So um [51:10] because everything else is like really [51:12] really fiddly. It it imposes they [51:14] everything else imposes some sort of [51:16] cost that is not a cost that you accept [51:19] today. And so [51:19] >> does PIN in invoke that much cost? I [51:21] think there's something about [51:22] >> you are the one who reviewed the humane [51:24] PIN. Did you think that was a free [51:27] experience or did you feel like you were [51:28] a giant dork? I felt like I was a giant [51:30] dork and it was a bad product. But I do [51:32] think there's something to the idea of [51:36] this device being just like a little [51:37] puck that I can put in a bunch of [51:39] different sort of accessories. Uh they [51:42] made one that was like a clip that you [51:43] can put on your backpack and one that [51:45] you you know there was the one that you [51:46] wear on your chest and you can wear it [51:47] around your neck and you can you can [51:48] have it be kind of a bunch of different [51:50] sorts of devices. And by the way, if I'm [51:52] Apple, that's what I'm building. I'm [51:54] turning the Apple Watch into that thing. [51:56] this little modular [51:58] rounded rectangle of an AI device that [52:01] can go lots of places and be lots of [52:02] things rather than trying to invent a [52:04] whole new device out of [52:06] >> the Apple Watch ankle monitor edition. [52:08] >> Exactly. Yeah, the Apple Watch, but it [52:12] just is a clip that I can put on my [52:14] backpack. Like, yes, give me that, [52:16] please. [52:17] >> They will never do that because the the [52:18] reason people buy Apple watches, at [52:19] least in Apple's conception, is fitness [52:21] and they need a heart rate sensor. [52:23] >> Yeah, I mean that's that's very much [52:24] where it is now. But I'm just saying if [52:25] I'm building an AI gadget, I think [52:27] you've done most of the hard work inside [52:28] of the Apple Watch. [52:29] >> Fine. I'll grant you pin at number [52:30] three. Only because of all the rest of [52:32] these, it is sort of the [52:35] Well, I still don't really know what [52:37] rectangle is in your in your world view. [52:39] Like, is it [52:39] >> There's a picture of a Rabbit R1 here, [52:41] man. It's not [52:41] >> like what is the difference between [52:42] rabbit R1 and and Humane Pin? They both [52:45] sucked. [52:46] >> The the Humane Pin doesn't have a [52:48] screen. [52:49] >> Okay. So, but it had the laser [52:50] projector, [52:52] >> did it? [52:55] I can't argue with that rebuttal at all. [52:59] >> All right, so pin. We're putting number [53:01] three at pin. Um, [53:04] >> can I make a brief impassioned case for [53:06] why I think pen [53:07] >> should be number four? [53:08] >> Sure. [53:09] >> I really like the idea of some kind of [53:13] everyday object [53:15] being used for this sort of thing. We've [53:17] done smart pens a few times over the [53:19] years. Like there's this company [53:20] Livescribe that would uh store the [53:24] information that you were writing as you [53:25] were writing it and it would transmit it [53:26] back to your computer and you could also [53:28] use it to get audio that would sync to [53:29] your notes. And there's like there's [53:31] something in that thing where it's it's [53:32] an object that fits in my pocket but I [53:34] can also put it on the table but I can [53:36] also sort of physically use it for [53:37] things that then add to the data. [53:39] There's something about that that feels [53:42] reasonable to me in terms of what it is [53:45] to be a person. [53:46] >> Yeah. I just think it's funny that this [53:48] is premised on a thing you will do in a [53:50] subject is write and long hand a lot. [53:53] >> Somehow we're back at this. Meta's out [53:55] here being like you're going to you're [53:56] going to wear our neural band and [53:58] scribble on the ground with your fingers [54:00] and that's how you're going to [54:01] communicate. This is what we're doing. [54:02] >> I just think there's a lot of other [54:04] penlike things that like fit your [54:07] description. Like knife, [54:12] you know, why not? Like just have a [54:14] knife that you pull out and sometimes [54:15] you use your knife and it's really [54:17] useful and like you probably use the [54:18] knife as much as you would use a pen and [54:21] sometimes [54:22] >> start a meeting and I just pull out a [54:23] hunting knife and put it on the table. [54:26] >> In many situations I think that would be [54:29] more useful than putting a pen on the [54:31] table. [54:33] >> Like I would there's I've been in [54:35] several meetings where I'm like man I [54:36] wish I'd started this way just put a [54:37] knife on the table. [54:38] >> You turn it's a switch blade and you [54:40] turn it on by flipping up the blade. [54:42] That's how you That's how you start the [54:43] recording. [54:44] >> Just throwing it out there. [54:46] >> Johnny, if you're listening, and I know [54:47] that you are, you can have that idea for [54:48] free. [54:49] >> Please make knife. [54:51] >> Like, honorable mention here is AI [54:52] knife. [54:53] >> But it's knife. It's It's K N A I F E. [54:56] It's just knife. [55:00] >> I'll give you pen at four. Although I I [55:02] fully disagree. [55:03] >> This is only because you hate the last [55:05] two so so very much. [55:07] >> Well, pendant is six. That means [55:10] rectangle is five. I think that is [55:12] handily correct. [55:13] >> Uh why is pendant six for you? [55:16] >> It just it completely violates the the [55:18] theory of wearable right? Like [55:20] there's no amount of utility you can get [55:23] from a necklace that overcomes its [55:25] fiddliness and like disruption to your [55:27] life. You have to want to wear this [55:29] necklace every single day of your life [55:32] for it to be valuable. And then it it it [55:35] just can't be that. It's going to run [55:36] into like your own personal sense of [55:39] style. It's going to run into the fact [55:40] that it's a heavy thing around your neck [55:42] that if you move a lot will swing around [55:46] and be annoying. Like there's there's no [55:49] level of utility that overcomes this [55:50] level of fiddliness. Yeah, I I I [55:53] completely agree with that. And there's [55:55] something about having someone come up [55:58] to you wearing what looks like a a fake [56:01] Iron Man core around their neck that [56:04] just feels for some reason that feels at [56:07] least as invasive to me as someone [56:09] wearing AR glasses that it's like here [56:12] is this glowing orb recording me feels [56:15] awful to me. I I just can't get past it. [56:18] It's a It's the rare wearable that has a [56:21] higher or more punishing fiddliness [56:24] score without a face penalty. But I [56:27] think pendant is it. [56:28] >> Yeah. [56:29] >> Like this is more fiddly than things you [56:30] put on your face. That's a you you've [56:32] lost. That's it's always number six. [56:34] Rectangle I'm penalizing only because it [56:36] remains in my mind illdefined as [56:38] anything other than bad phone. [56:41] I mean, I think that's kind of why I put [56:43] rectangle on here because I think the [56:45] question is, is there a thing that looks [56:48] phoneish but is deliberately not a phone [56:52] that can work? And [56:53] >> oh, here's a question. So, rectangle is [56:55] maybe I don't I don't know what the [56:57] rabbit is saying. If I could get you [56:59] like a flip phone, like one of these [57:01] like sort of popular you should have a [57:03] second phone flip phones, [57:05] >> but it had Gemini in it. [57:08] Would that would that is that a thing? [57:11] >> It's a great question. What if you [57:12] flipped open your flip phone and and [57:14] that's how you talk to Gemini? [57:15] >> Right. It was just kind of it was kind [57:17] of a dumb phone. Like no apps, no [57:18] distraction, no social media. [57:21] >> I'll I'll give you a maps app. That's [57:22] the one thing everybody always says they [57:23] want. They want maps on their phone. [57:25] >> And then you also have Gemini for all [57:26] the other stuff you need to do [57:28] >> or other you don't have web browser, [57:30] right? you can't you're just not going [57:31] to be distracted, but if you need to [57:33] like get a question answered, Gemini is [57:34] there to confidently lie to you um in [57:37] whatever way Gemini is going to lie to [57:38] you. Is that is that a meaningful form [57:41] factor? I think there are people who say [57:44] yes. I I think to me that is just as [57:48] fiddly as a phone, but vastly less [57:51] powerful. And so the idea to me is like [57:53] how do you how do you solve the UX of [57:56] that to make it so easy to do Gemini on [57:59] that device that it's actually worth [58:00] having a separate device for, right? [58:02] Because otherwise you get what we were [58:03] talking about with Siri where they're [58:04] going to make it the top layer of the [58:06] phone is going to be the chatbot. Then [58:09] it becomes I I don't know how you beat [58:11] that with hardware, [58:13] >> right? I think you would say this thing [58:15] doesn't have Instagram on it. I mean [58:17] that's how all the dumb funds are being [58:18] marketed today. [58:18] >> Yeah. [58:19] >> They don't have social media. It doesn't [58:21] have a bunch of feeds on it. Like this [58:23] thing is going to make you more [58:24] intentional. You're going to be in the [58:25] moment. But when you need to call the [58:27] Uber, there's a cut down Uber app here [58:29] because that's what you need. [58:31] >> And I you could see building a version [58:32] of that where also you have, you know, [58:36] an ecosystem of capabilities that are [58:38] accessed through an AI system. [58:40] >> And so you're not do you're not making [58:41] the promise of like here's it's [58:44] listening to you all the time to make [58:46] meeting summaries of like your [58:47] conversation at the bar. It's much more [58:49] like this thing. We've removed all the [58:52] things that cause distraction, but it's [58:54] still just as useful as a phone, [58:55] >> right? It still does this one actually [58:57] extremely useful thing, which is go be [59:00] the answer engine for you. [59:02] >> I will say that we have now just [59:03] described an Apple Watch. [59:04] >> This is what I'm saying. [59:06] >> Yeah, [59:06] >> Apple, if you're listening, just a clip [59:09] that I can put on my backpack. That's [59:10] it. Thank you. That's and make the [59:12] battery last longer. [59:13] >> I'm curious for other people's rankings. [59:15] I'm also curious what other people think [59:17] rectangle is. [59:19] >> Send us a your favorite rectangle and b [59:23] uh yeah, send us your your rankings. [59:25] We're going to figure out how to make [59:26] the rankomatic into a website. Um I [59:28] looked up how much it would cost to buy [59:30] rankomatic.com and it was $3,333. [59:33] So we will not be buying rankomatic.com. [59:36] But if you own it and want to give it to [59:37] us for free, uh verse.com, get at us. [59:40] Um, but until then, our rankings for [59:42] now, glasses number one, earbuds number [59:44] two, pin number three, pen number four, [59:46] rectangle number five, and pendant [59:48] number six. Um, with with phone as the [59:51] sort of large thing just slapped over [59:53] top of the whole ranking. [59:55] >> Can we make pendant lower? [59:59] >> We'll leave six, seven, and eight empty, [60:01] and then pendant is number nine. [60:02] >> Yeah, that's right. [60:03] >> That's good. All right, Neil, I thank [60:05] you for playing this game with me. This [60:06] is delightful. Uh, we're going to take a [60:07] break and then we're going to come back [60:08] and it's time to hear from our man [60:11] Brendan and do a lightning round. We'll [60:13] be right back. [60:15] Support for the show comes from Monarch. [60:18] Be honest. Did you splurge this holiday [60:20] season? Maybe one too many late night [60:22] shopping sprees. Instead of avoiding [60:24] your bank statements, get the full [60:26] picture of your finances with Monarch. [60:29] Monarch is the all-in-one personal [60:31] finance tool designed to make your life [60:32] easier. That's because unlike most other [60:35] personal finance apps, Monarch is built [60:37] to make you proactive, not just [60:39] reactive. Monarch can bring your entire [60:41] financial life, budgeting, accounts, and [60:44] investments, net worth, and future [60:46] planning together in one dashboard on [60:49] your laptop or phone. And now with AI [60:52] tools, Monarch can comb through the data [60:55] to surface insights personalized to you, [60:58] such as hidden patterns, identifying [61:00] lifestyle creep versus inflation, [61:02] changes in saving rates, and more. [61:05] According to their data from 2025, [61:08] Monarch helped users save over $200 per [61:10] month on average after joining. This [61:12] year, achieve your financial goals for [61:14] good. Monarch is the all-in-one tool [61:17] that makes proactive money management [61:19] simple all year long. Use code Verge at [61:22] monarch.com [61:23] for half off your first year. That's 50% [61:26] off your first year at monarch.com [61:29] with code Verge. [61:36] >> All right, we're back. Time for an [61:37] update on the Epic Google Live blog. Uh [61:39] Neil, what's going on? [61:40] >> As we speak, Epic CEO Tim Sweeney is [61:43] being sworn in on the stand. [61:46] >> I have I have no idea what he's going to [61:47] say. I will say Sean just reported in [61:49] real time as as we're podcasting that [61:51] there may be a secret product deal [61:54] between Epic and Google that the judge [61:56] is allowing them to keep secret as part [61:58] of the settlement. What? Yes. The judge [62:01] keeps asking Epic why it's suddenly [62:03] agreeing to settle and has revealed that [62:05] Epic and Google are in the middle of a [62:07] deal that involves joint product [62:08] development, joint marketing commitment, [62:09] and joint partnerships. And the judge is [62:12] concerned that Epic is throwing out its [62:15] case because Google's offering them this [62:16] deal. Google Stadia is coming back, but [62:18] the only game is Fortnite. That's what [62:21] it is. We We did it. [62:24] >> Uh, it's getting hot in the courtroom. [62:26] We'll keep you updated as as as Sean [62:27] continues to report. [62:29] >> That's good stuff. Um, all right. Let's [62:30] get into the lightning round. Um, do we [62:33] have Neil? Is it time for [62:34] >> He did. He was He was particularly dumb [62:36] this week. [62:37] >> It's time once again for America's [62:39] favorite podcast within a podcast. [62:41] Brenda Carr is a dummy. Neil, what do [62:42] you do? [62:43] >> He's a dummy. [62:45] That's the tagline for for Brendar's a [62:48] dummy. He's such a dummy. [62:52] >> Yeah. With like two or three exclamation [62:53] points at the end. [62:54] >> Yeah. Someone make us someone make us [62:55] some AI theme music. It's going to be [62:57] great. We don't have to work very hard [62:58] on it. I won't feel bad about it. Just [62:59] make it and send it. We'll start playing [63:01] it. Uh okay. So, here is one of the [63:03] weirdest aspects of Trump 2. As I have [63:07] said, it's just a bunch of influencers. [63:09] influencers armed with the power of the [63:12] state and a weird uh unconstitutional [63:15] police force that is doing horrible [63:16] things every day, but influencers [63:18] nonetheless. And the weird [63:19] unconstitutional police force uh is also [63:21] just like swarming our cities with [63:24] content creators to make content. Like [63:26] it's weird. That's the whole [63:27] administration, right? Content up and [63:29] down. That's all they care about. Clout [63:31] and views. JD Vance content machine. [63:35] They keep acting like the only thing [63:36] people watch is broadcast television. [63:40] Like it's it's such a fundamental [63:42] disconnect in the world view of the the [63:45] people in charge that they all know that [63:48] all the action is on social platforms [63:51] and they should do clout. [63:53] They run a hype house. Like weird, [63:56] right? They know it. You can see it's [63:57] embedded in the administration. we [63:59] should put vloggers with ICE on the [64:02] streets of America to make content and [64:05] shape the narrative. And then they turn [64:06] right around and they're like, "We have [64:08] to crack down on broadcast television [64:10] for misleading the American people." And [64:12] you're like, "What? No one's even [64:14] watching this, but it's the power they [64:17] have because our nation's airwaves are [64:19] under control of the Federal [64:20] Communication Commission and they're a [64:22] scarce public resource and under some [64:25] old precedents, including Red Lion, [64:26] which I bring up on the show all the [64:28] time. Because it's a scarce public [64:30] resource and because the broadcasters [64:32] have not paid a license fee, the [64:34] government has some interest in how [64:36] those airwaves are used. And Brendan [64:40] Carr has seized upon this to do whatever [64:43] he wants to the nation's broadcasters. [64:46] And it is just such a disconnect because [64:48] he's always like the most important [64:50] problem in telecommunications in America [64:52] is not rural broadband or kids having to [64:55] go to the library to get Wi-Fi access, [64:56] do their homework or anything. It's what [65:00] late night hosts are doing on broadcast [65:02] television. And I will use the power of [65:04] the state to crack down on Jimmy Kimmel. [65:07] This week, the FCC is targeting late [65:11] night hosts using a long dormant law [65:15] saying that if late night shows book [65:18] politicians, they have to the networks [65:21] have to provide equal time to the [65:23] opposing party. [65:26] Because you know what uh politicians [65:27] don't have enough access to in America [65:30] uh is making and sharing media. [65:33] >> Yeah. Didn't this become a whole big [65:35] thing with SNL during the last election [65:37] that [65:38] >> it did. So SNL is very good at this. So [65:40] Carr came at SNL super hard because they [65:42] had Harris on and NBC needed to give [65:44] Trump equal time and Carr opened an [65:47] inquiry, but it turns out SNL has long [65:50] been good at this because under no [65:52] circumstances can SNL be considered news [65:54] and news has an exception to this rule. [65:57] So if you're a a Republican politician [65:59] and you go on NBC News, they don't have [66:02] to offer equal time to your opponent [66:04] that because the news has an exception. [66:06] There's a lot of reasons for that. Like [66:07] you want your elected politicians to [66:09] show up on the news [66:10] >> and so you don't have to provide equal [66:12] time. By the way, I should I should [66:13] disclose that NBC is an investor in a [66:15] parent company, Vox Media, [66:16] >> right? [66:17] >> Whatever. It's true of all the networks, [66:19] ABC, CBS, all the broadcast networks [66:20] have these rules. Late night shows have [66:22] been skirting under the idea that these [66:25] interviews are newsworthy, so they get [66:27] the news exception. You can argue with [66:30] that. Maybe it's true, maybe it's not. [66:31] Maybe these interviews are all [66:32] puffballs. Whatever. There's no argument [66:35] that SNL is news. Right. [66:37] >> Right. Like none at all. So when SNL had [66:39] Harris on during the election, NBC had [66:42] already done the work and filed the [66:43] paperwork. And if you'll recall, they [66:45] gave Trump ad spots during like a NASCAR [66:47] race like the next day, right? And so [66:49] car was all smoke and fury, but it came [66:50] to nothing. And I had heard from people [66:52] at the FCC like this is nonsense. SNL is [66:55] the only program that cares about this [66:57] and they're good at it and they have [66:58] been for a long time. [66:59] >> Interesting. Okay. [67:00] >> The daytime shows, right, that [67:02] interviews are quote unquote news and [67:04] they haven't done this work. So Brendan [67:06] Carr, how is he using his time? Well, [67:09] he's not bringing down wireless prices. [67:11] He's not expanding broadband access. [67:13] He's saying that Jimmy Kimmel, Steven [67:15] Cobar, Seth Meyers have to give equal [67:18] time to the opponents of the politicians [67:21] that show up on their shows, including [67:23] daytime talk shows like The View. And [67:26] everybody is like, well, this is kind of [67:28] unconstitutional because you're [67:29] interfering with their speech. This rule [67:32] only made sense when these networks had [67:34] monopolies on media distribution. That [67:37] is long gone. Again, no one's watching [67:39] these things. [67:41] Do you know like all these shows, do you [67:42] know where the majority of their viewers [67:43] are on YouTube the next day? [67:45] >> Uhhuh. [67:46] >> What are we talking about? And then you [67:50] also run into the part that I think is [67:52] particularly good. He's such a dummy. [67:55] Well, you know what? This rule would [67:56] also affect conservative talk radio. [68:00] >> Oh, right. [68:01] >> Cuz they're on the broadcast spectrum. [68:03] >> Sure. [68:04] >> So, like, do conservative talk radio [68:06] hosts have to offer equal time to [68:09] Democrats? I don't know, but I know that [68:11] Brandon Carr is not going to run that [68:13] down. [68:13] >> I know for sure Gavin Newsome would say [68:15] yes to all of those. [68:17] >> He would go. [68:18] >> He would definitely go. Uh so there's [68:21] just a lot of arguing back and forth. [68:23] This is just an enormous waste of time. [68:25] I I I can't be clear about this. This is [68:27] an enormous waste of time around [68:30] government speech regulations over [68:32] things that people are not watching. And [68:35] one, you shouldn't have government [68:36] speech regulations. If I have one [68:38] consistent political viewpoint on this [68:40] show, it's that government speech [68:41] regulations are bad. The second one is [68:43] that competition is good. You tell me [68:44] what my politics are. Um, [68:47] doesn't track what people think, but [68:49] that's that's what we say. And this is a [68:52] government speech regulation imposed on [68:55] uh a bunch of comedians basically who do [68:58] not have the monopoly over media [69:01] distribution that at one time [69:04] justified the ability of the government [69:06] to make these speech restrictions [69:07] >> because no one's watching this [69:09] They're all on their phones watching [69:10] TikTok. He's such a dummy. Brandon, as [69:13] always, if you can justify any of this [69:14] nonsense, you're welcome to come on this [69:16] show. I'll offer equal time to your [69:17] opponents. Happy to do that. Uh but I [69:20] don't think he can. And I think you're a [69:21] coward. So that's your invitation as [69:23] always, Brendan. Once again, I think [69:24] you're a dummy. That's been Brendan [69:25] Cars, a dummy, America's favorite [69:27] podcast within podcast. [69:28] >> It's good stuff. I really feel like like [69:30] the the thing they say about newsrooms [69:32] all the time is your newsroom's job is [69:34] just like whatever your editor whatever [69:36] happened to your editor on the way to [69:37] work that morning. Uh the the whole [69:40] United States government is just like [69:41] whatever Donald Trump saw on television. [69:44] >> Yeah. [69:44] >> That's just what it's it's very [69:45] >> This is what I mean. He is a creature of [69:47] social media. [69:48] >> Yeah. [69:48] >> Right. Trump tweeted his way to the [69:50] presidency not once but twice the second [69:53] time because Elon bought Twitter and [69:54] gave him access to the platform again. [69:57] It's it's crazy that they know they know [70:00] where the power comes from but they [70:03] can't regulate those platforms. So it [70:04] can threaten those platforms and they do [70:06] and you can see that happening in [70:08] different ways but when it the power [70:10] they have is over the broadcast networks [70:12] and so they have to pretend the [70:14] broadcast networks are massively more [70:16] powerful than they are to impose these [70:18] speech regulations. I suspect we'll see [70:20] some lawsuits here. I suspect you know [70:22] there'll be whatever argument especially [70:24] if they don't apply the rule to [70:26] conservative talk radio [70:29] but in the meantime this is just a huge [70:30] waste of resources time and money. [70:32] >> We're good at that right now. Good [70:34] stuff. [70:34] >> Amazing. [70:34] >> All right, my first one, while we're [70:36] talking about TV, um Netflix had its [70:39] earnings this week and said a bunch of [70:41] really interesting stuff. They talked a [70:42] bunch about podcasts, which actually [70:43] Nick Qua and I are going to talk about [70:44] on Tuesday's show. Um the whole Netflix [70:47] podcast thing has been deeply bizarre. [70:48] We're going to talk about that. Um but [70:50] Netflix also said that they're going to [70:53] revamp their whole mobile UI, that [70:56] they're we're going to get sort of a [70:57] full redesign of the Netflix app. Um, [71:00] and they said pretty directly that most [71:03] of what that means is more vertical [71:06] videos in the Netflix app. And so, Neil, [71:09] what I wonder is, are we finally going [71:12] to get the thing that you have been [71:14] saying we should get for forever, which [71:17] is just the Netflix app should just be a [71:20] Tik Tok feed of clips from Netflix [71:22] shows, and then you go through until you [71:24] find one that you like, and then you [71:25] press play and it takes you to the show. [71:27] Like it seems not crazy to me that that [71:29] is actually the direction Netflix is [71:31] going to sprint in as it changes its [71:33] apps. [71:33] >> Yeah. By the way, this is my idea and I [71:35] proposed it directly to Netflix cog [71:37] Peters when he was on Decoder last year. [71:40] So what's up Greg? I should be in this [71:42] press release [71:43] >> where my royalties at least promote the [71:45] show. Like shout me out. [71:48] Where you at, dude? He's busy. He's he's [71:51] he's trying to buy Warner He's busy [71:53] trying to do the most suicidal thing [71:54] anyone can do which is buy Warner [71:56] Brothers. Yeah, that's fair. [71:57] >> Um, this is obviously what they should [71:59] do. You know, Netflix has this problem, [72:00] which is, as we've discussed so many [72:02] times, people are are not watching this [72:05] stuff on their TVs and the thing that's [72:07] growing on TVs is podcast viewing on [72:08] YouTube, which obviously they're getting [72:10] into. And I I Well, how do you feel [72:12] about when you see like Bill Simmons [72:15] ringer podcast in the Netflix feed next [72:17] to like the RIP? Like, there's something [72:19] inherently weird about that that they're [72:20] going to have to solve. [72:21] >> It is not. It it I I'm getting [72:22] increasingly used to Netflix just [72:25] feeling like a mish mash of stuff. [72:27] >> Yeah. [72:27] >> Podcasts. It's still new, so maybe I'll [72:29] get used to it. But every time a podcast [72:31] appears, like I'll give you an example [72:33] that you in particular will appreciate. [72:34] My wife sat down the other night to [72:36] start. She's watching uh Owning [72:38] Manhattan, Ryan Sirhan's show um on [72:40] Netflix right now and loves it. I think [72:42] Ryan Sand is is I'm like a little bit in [72:44] love with Ryan Sirhan. It's a whole [72:45] thing. But anyway, uh she sits down to [72:47] start watching the show, opens up [72:48] Netflix, and you know how it it if you [72:50] leave it for a second, it'll autoplay [72:51] the first thing in the first tile. The [72:53] first thing in the first tile was Pardon [72:54] My Take, the bar stool sports football [72:58] podcast. And so I walk into the room 10 [73:00] seconds after Anna sits down and she's [73:02] just watching Pardon My Take on her [73:04] television. [73:05] >> And I was just like, what has happened [73:06] to the world that this is the autoplay [73:08] experience being my wife? [73:11] >> Really bizarre. Uh, it's it's deeply [73:13] confusing and it's so funny because [73:16] there's a world in which I just want to [73:18] sit down and like have NFL gossip [73:21] presented to me and I'm still not sure [73:24] that I want that from Netflix, you know? [73:25] >> Yeah. [73:26] >> Anyway, I think they've got to figure [73:27] out a bunch of stuff on the TV side. The [73:29] question is, well, if all the viewing [73:31] moves to the phone, then you really are [73:34] competing with Tik Tok, [73:35] >> right? And this is what I keep saying, [73:37] like the reason people buy frame TVs is [73:38] they leave them in whatever liinal off [73:41] state Samsung has decided art mode in [73:43] and they're actually just watching their [73:44] phones. And uh we saw Matt Damon and Ben [73:47] Affleck talk about the RIP in exactly [73:48] this way to involve people Joe Rogan. [73:50] >> Yeah. [73:51] >> Where they said Netflix told us to stop [73:53] the movie and explain the plot several [73:55] times because they know people are on [73:56] their phones. [73:57] >> Yep. [73:57] >> So this is the reality of the [73:59] entertainment industry that we're in. [74:00] And I think if you're Netflix, you're [74:01] like, well, we got to get people to open [74:03] this app more often. Video games isn't [74:05] going to do it. which was their first [74:06] cut. And they're like, "Okay, Tik Tok is [74:07] going to do it. We're just going to [74:09] straight like our stuff is pirated on [74:11] TikTok every day." Anyway, I also [74:12] believe that all the studios just [74:14] started secretly clip boosting their own [74:17] content when they want to show it to [74:18] people. [74:19] >> Like they're running their own clip [74:20] farms. [74:21] >> Yeah. Like I don't think Land Man is so [74:24] popular that it should generate as much [74:26] seemingly pirated clips as what I see. [74:29] Interesting. [74:29] >> Do you know what I mean? [74:30] >> Uhhuh. [74:30] >> Like I think I think Zazlav is like [74:33] unleash the bots. Like I think that's [74:35] what's happening there. And you can see [74:37] like whenever there's a thing everyone [74:39] wants you to watch, like the clips just [74:41] start appearing. I I think I think [74:43] that's marketing. And I think Netflix [74:45] knows this and they're like, "Why are we [74:46] paying to do this on TikTok? We'll just [74:48] make our app fun to use our content." [74:49] And then truly you can push the button [74:51] and just drop into the show right where [74:52] you started. They should have done this [74:54] ages ago. Actually, all these platforms [74:56] should have done this ages ago. I think [74:57] in Netflix, [74:59] >> from what I recall, that conversation [75:00] with Greg Peters, there's just a bunch [75:02] of licensing you have to do to make that [75:04] go. Uh, sure. [75:05] >> Whereas you can kind of like it's [75:07] piracy. We don't know what's going on [75:08] over there. Like wave it away, but it's [75:10] in the app. There's a lot of content [75:12] licensing you have to do to pull that [75:13] off. [75:13] >> Yeah, that makes sense. I mean, and I [75:15] think it's just weird to see Netflix go [75:17] from being we want to be prestige TV, [75:21] which is what Netflix was for a long [75:22] time, to basically we want to be [75:24] prestige YouTube, which I think is kind [75:26] of where it is now, where they they're [75:28] they're pulling in creators to do stuff. [75:30] They're pulling in video podcasts, like [75:32] the the sort of curated creator universe [75:35] is a real thing that Netflix wants to be [75:37] now. It wants to be prestige Tik Tok and [75:40] and I think that how far and how weird [75:44] you can get with that brand and still be [75:46] the prestigious thing. [75:47] >> Oh, I don't think they care about that. [75:49] They want to be the monopoly. [75:50] >> Maybe. Maybe they're they're now so big [75:52] that being the prestige play is a waste [75:54] of time. [75:54] >> Netflix is a company that said our only [75:55] competition is sleep. [75:57] >> That's true. That's true. But I think I [75:59] think Netflix has continued to pride [76:01] itself on being very good, right? that [76:03] it it is they're not trying to have the [76:06] sheer volume because they're like, [76:07] "Well, what we have is guaranteed [76:10] quality and it feels like they're [76:12] they're grip on that is loosening a [76:15] little bit here." [76:17] >> And maybe they don't care. Maybe maybe [76:19] they're as long as you are watching, [76:21] they care less and less about what it is [76:22] that you're watching. [76:24] >> The pressure of now we have a mobile UI [76:26] that looks like Tik Tok and people are [76:27] watching a thing that looks like Tik [76:28] Tok. going from this is the solution to [76:31] discovery on our platform to this is the [76:33] thing we monetize. That's when the [76:34] switch flips. [76:35] >> If it works, that will happen. But also, [76:37] to be clear, all of this is downstream [76:39] from I think this is an exceptionally [76:41] good idea. Like I actually really do [76:43] think this is what [76:44] >> once again I will point out that I I [76:45] pitched this idea to Greg Peters, the co [76:48] of Netflix uh last year. And Greg, the [76:50] next time you mention it, just uh you [76:52] know, decoder exists. You could just say [76:54] the name. [76:55] >> Just throwing it out there, buddy. [76:58] All right. What's your next one? [76:59] >> Uh, more TV. I got to talk about Telly. [77:03] >> Telly is the the the company. Their big [77:06] idea was that they would give you a free [77:09] TV, but underneath it would be a second [77:12] smaller widescreen screen that just [77:15] showed ads. [77:16] >> Mh. [77:17] >> And the rules were bananas. If you [77:19] agreed to this, they would send you a [77:20] free TV. The ads would be on all the [77:22] time. You had to use this free TV as [77:25] your primary TV in your main room. and [77:27] you had to keep the camera on all the [77:28] time so they could check out that you're [77:29] watching it. And if you like [77:30] disconnected the ad screen or blocked it [77:32] in some way, you got in trouble. This is [77:34] a lot for a free TV. Yeah, we reviewed [77:37] it. The thing didn't work very well, [77:39] whatever. They told us they were going [77:41] to sell millions upon millions of these [77:43] TVs or give away millions upon millions [77:45] of these TVs. The CEO at one point said [77:47] he thought this was a trillion dollar [77:48] company. [77:50] our friend Yanka Ruckers who uh writes [77:53] Low Pass. There's a column we syndicate. [77:54] He got some data. Telly's only moved [77:57] 35,000 free TVs last year. Um [78:02] >> that's as many as they have installed. [78:03] 10% of the units they shipped broke in [78:06] transit cuz I think they cheaped out on [78:08] who their shipping provider would be. So [78:10] now they've switched providers, the same [78:12] one Samsung uses, because a 10% shipping [78:15] breakage rate is ridiculous. And then [78:17] he's done some math um based on the [78:21] revenue numbers they were quoting and [78:23] the documents that he saw. Uh and they [78:26] made 22 million in annualized revenue in [78:29] Q3 of 2025, [78:31] which if you just divide out by 35,000 [78:33] TVs. They're making $50 in advertising [78:36] revenue per TV per month. [78:39] >> That seems hot. That seems like a big [78:41] number. [78:41] >> It seems like a great business if you [78:42] can ship TVs that people want and they [78:44] don't break on the [78:45] >> that don't break. Yeah. your 10% [78:46] breakage rate really cuts into your [78:48] revenue of $50 per month, right? And I [78:50] have no idea how much the service costs [78:51] to operate. I don't know how much the [78:53] executives are paying themselves. Like, [78:54] that's not profit. That's just revenue, [78:56] >> right? [78:56] >> Which may not be enough to cover the [78:59] operation business. But so far, they've [79:01] only managed to ship 35,000 of these [79:03] things, 10% of which are breaking. Um, [79:06] and [79:08] who knows if they're going to ship all [79:09] of the pre-orders that they've taken. [79:12] >> Yeah, it's that that whole thing is so [79:14] fascinating to me. I remember Ilia Posen [79:16] who's the CEO he came on the Vergecast [79:18] like two years ago now and made an [79:21] incredibly compelling case for why telly [79:23] should exist and I think you know to the [79:25] extent that it's saying the quiet part [79:26] loud about how advertising works on TVs [79:28] anyway this is the stuff we were talking [79:30] about right that the reason your TV is [79:32] as cheap as it is is because it's [79:34] watching you and and collecting data on [79:37] you and targeting advertising against [79:39] you and so for him to say well we're [79:40] just going to we're just going to make [79:42] that agreement the whole agreement [79:45] Yeah, [79:45] >> works and they got a lot of pre-orders [79:46] and that the there is a clear version of [79:49] that trade that people are willing to [79:51] sign up for. And what he said over and [79:53] over to to me and to others was that [79:55] actually making and shipping you the TV [79:58] is not the hard part that that it's it's [80:00] the rest of this stuff building the [80:02] software and building the advertising [80:03] business that's all the hard part. TVs [80:06] are are, you know, simple commodities. [80:07] We can just get one of those to your [80:08] house. So the the fact that that is the [80:11] thing that is tripping them up is is [80:14] sort of fascinating and frankly very [80:16] telling. It turns out it is actually [80:18] pretty hard to manufacture and ship a [80:19] lot of people a lot of televisions. [80:20] >> I mean it's it's huge sheets of glass. [80:22] Like I straightforwardly this is hard. [80:24] Um but I would say I think a lot of [80:27] those pre-orders are people who thought [80:29] they could just cover up the ad screen [80:32] or defeat it or hack it or whatever. Um, [80:35] and I it's unclear whether as you hit [80:38] real scale, people are going to agree to [80:41] the, you know, to have a billboard in [80:43] your house. [80:44] >> Yeah, we'll see. 35,000 units. That's [80:47] the number. You know what I think Telly [80:49] should do is make make one of these that [80:52] is explicitly designed to be like your [80:55] outdoor deck television. The the one [80:57] that you like the one you the TV you [80:59] care about the least in your house [81:01] should be the telly. And then I would [81:04] sign up for that. I'm like, I don't want [81:05] that to be the TV in my living room. But [81:06] if it's like the TV here in the basement [81:08] behind my desk that I barely ever watch, [81:10] but sometimes like, yeah, [81:12] >> I want you to just take the other side [81:13] of that equation and be like, I'm going [81:15] to go to advertisers and be like, here's [81:16] what we did. We gave everybody a screen [81:18] that they don't care about by that time. [81:21] Like, no, there's a reason they're like, [81:23] it has to be in your main room and be [81:25] your main TV. [81:25] >> Okay, I have a new idea. Telly should [81:27] only work with sports bars. [81:31] >> It's actually pretty good. [81:32] >> I'm saying that. [81:32] >> It's actually pretty good. Yeah. [81:35] Uh yeah. Did you Did you ever sign up [81:37] for a telly? Even just out of morbid [81:38] curiosity? No. No. No. No. No. I I have [81:41] a limited amount of self-respect and [81:42] that's about where where that's where it [81:44] goes. [81:45] >> Fair enough. Um all right. So for my [81:47] next one, um weekly Trump phone update. [81:50] Um but also this one in particular is a [81:53] shout out to Dom Preston on our team who [81:56] did some truly fascinating journalism in [81:59] the service of our silly weekly Trump [82:01] phone column. um he ran down this claim [82:05] that has been repeated all over the [82:06] internet that there were 600,000 [82:09] pre-orders for the Trump phone. Um which [82:12] even if it were true, right? Let's let's [82:14] say that's true, that is not it's not [82:16] like the most successful phone in [82:18] history, but that that's a big number. [82:19] If if if Trump had managed to sell [82:22] 600,000 Trump phones, it would actually [82:24] mean they got $60 million just in [82:26] pre-orders and that this is like a [82:28] meaningful thing that clearly a [82:29] meaningful number of people want. Uh, so [82:31] he ran it down trying to figure out [82:32] where did this number come from. And it [82:34] turns out this number appears to have [82:37] come from [82:39] essentially nowhere. [82:42] The the Trump phone, everybody. [82:44] >> Yeah. So he found uh a couple of [82:46] different social accounts that had [82:49] posted this number with no sourcing, no [82:51] information, more or less just writing a [82:54] number out of the out of nothing. Um, [82:57] and then these things get picked up by [83:01] what I would call relatively specious [83:04] news publications, news quote unquote [83:07] news publications, [83:08] >> content farms. [83:08] >> Yeah, content farms, which then gets [83:10] picked up by slightly more reputable [83:12] news publications. And this this number [83:14] gets sort of laundered up the chain to [83:18] the point where Governor Gavin Newsome's [83:20] press office did a threads post of a [83:24] Grock summary of this number. So if you [83:28] ask one of these AI chatbots, Grock or [83:30] the others, they will they will go find [83:31] this number which has been laundered [83:34] through these different sources, but [83:35] it's on a bunch of websites. And when [83:37] it's on a bunch of websites, the AI bots [83:39] are going to look at it and say, "Okay, [83:40] this number has come up over and over. [83:41] Thus, it is probably reputable and real [83:44] and and they present it as real in the [83:46] incredibly confident way that they do. [83:48] Uh Grock even cited some sources like [83:51] Fortune, NPR, and the Guardian. U but [83:53] Dom couldn't find any of those things [83:56] that existed. So, it's just like it's [83:59] just a social media post very slowly [84:02] turns into a bunch of random nonsense on [84:04] the internet turns into AI summaries of [84:06] that random nonsense on the internet [84:08] turns into people who shouldn't be [84:09] trusting AI summaries of random nonsense [84:11] on the internet doing so and poof, it's [84:13] legitimate because the governor of [84:15] California is posting it on his threads [84:17] account. Like what an unbelievable story [84:20] about the internet in 2026 in the guise [84:23] of 600,000 Trump mobile pre-orders. [84:26] >> That's it everybody. We're shutting it [84:28] down. I don't I don't know what else to [84:30] say about this. [84:31] >> It's a real like turn off the internet [84:32] kind of moment. [84:33] >> It's very bad. You know, this is like an [84:35] old pattern. We um we've run a variation [84:37] of the story about where flat earth came [84:39] from [84:40] >> and flat earth as a conspiracy that [84:42] won't go away is legitimately a product [84:45] of search algorithms. [84:48] like you can get a bunch of views for [84:50] flat earth content. So people make it [84:51] and then people search for flat earth [84:53] like is the earth flat and then people [84:55] see that search and they make web pages [84:56] about whether or not the earth is flat [84:58] and then there like those web pages rank [85:01] and like and it's just a circle of clout [85:04] that makes [85:04] >> if you write a thing that says is the [85:06] earth flat even if you say no you've now [85:08] acknowledged the existence of a theory [85:10] that the earth is flat which which just [85:12] continues the cycle going. [85:13] >> Yeah. It's it's it's truly like that [85:15] whole thing is just a weird algorithmic [85:18] clout cycle that I resulted in I believe [85:21] Kevin Durant leaving the earth is flat. [85:22] Like I don't know I don't know what to [85:24] tell you about that. Like how what is [85:26] Aaron Rogers? And you're like the end of [85:27] an algorithmic clout cycle. Um real [85:29] >> boy do I have thoughts about [85:30] professional athletes using the [85:32] internet. I didn't even realize that I [85:34] had so many thoughts but it turns out I [85:35] do. Um it it there there's like a [85:37] million ways this happens over time and [85:40] we I we see a cycle play out. The I [85:42] think the thing with AI in particular is [85:44] that it like launderers everything into [85:47] the same amount of authoritiveness. [85:50] >> Yeah. [85:50] >> This was uh true by the way another part [85:52] of the cycle which was really weird. [85:53] Remember um Facebook instant articles [85:54] and Google AMP. [85:55] >> I was just thinking that. Yeah. When [85:57] every page looked the same. So you [85:59] looked somewhere. [86:00] >> Yeah. [86:00] >> Yeah. And so even the content forms took [86:02] on the authoritiveness because all you [86:05] were really changing in the layout was [86:06] the logo. And so you would have these [86:08] Facebook insert articles and Google Ant [86:10] pages where it was like, is this the New [86:12] York Times or is this the Webosphere [86:15] Times? Like it just didn't matter. Um, [86:18] this is very bad. Um, I will say that [86:20] there's no chance that they've sold [86:21] 600,000 Trump phones [86:23] >> or even taken that many pre-orders. The [86:24] company refuses to talk to us about [86:26] this. So, we're going to keep reporting [86:27] on it. We've got some We've got some [86:29] ideas on how to get some leverage in the [86:32] reporting. We're gonna You'll see. [86:34] You'll see. We'll talk about it next [86:35] week. [86:35] >> It's going to be good. But also, if you [86:37] have one, I live in Washington DC. If if [86:40] one exists, it's probably here. I will I [86:43] will come to your house. I will meet you [86:45] in a parking garage. Like, [86:48] >> this is my white whale. [86:49] >> Do not meet Don Jr. in a parking garage. [86:51] Like, what is the fastest way to get [86:53] arrested for cocaine possession? It's [86:55] meeting Don Junior in a parking garage. [86:56] >> Don, if you're listening, and I know [86:57] that you are, get at me. [87:01] As your as your friend and nominally [87:03] your boss, I insist that you do not meet [87:05] Don Jr. Parker. [87:06] >> All right, I understand. I appreciate [87:08] that. [87:08] >> You have a young family, David. [87:12] >> What's your What's your last one? [87:14] >> Speaking of things that never happened, [87:15] promised by the Trump administration, [87:17] uh, I have a Fox update for you. So, [87:20] Mount Pleasant [87:20] >> 5K HG. [87:21] >> They did. [87:22] >> AI 8K. I don't know. [87:24] >> It's mostly just the AI. [87:28] Um, so as you know and in Trump won, [87:32] Donald Trump used a golden shovel to [87:34] break ground on what was promised to be [87:36] a giant LCD factory in my hometown of [87:39] Mount Pleasant, Wisconsin. Mount [87:41] Pleasant, Wisconsin is right next to [87:43] Wisconsin. When I was growing up, Mount [87:44] Pleasant wasn't it wasn't an entity, but [87:47] now it's bigger since it's Mount [87:48] Pleasant or so. So I think I whatever it [87:50] doesn't matter. This site is five [87:54] minutes away from the house I grew up [87:55] in. So, of course, we covered the hal, [87:57] but there was never an LCD factory. [88:00] Many, many things happened, [88:03] including uh Fox on employees screaming [88:05] at us to leave them alone. [88:06] >> Josh Jeza wrote a truly spectac feature. [88:10] Award-winning feature on the reality of [88:12] the Fox on package. [88:12] >> We'll put it in the show notes. It's one [88:13] of my favorite Verd features ever. [88:15] >> Heartsbroken political careers destroyed [88:17] the whole thing. [88:18] >> But there's a dome. [88:19] >> There's a He did build a dome that they [88:21] claimed was a data center. The data [88:22] center is actually located in a shipping [88:23] container outside the dome. The dome [88:25] itself is a a party facility. Very [88:27] confusing all the way around. The dome [88:29] is still there. It's very small, which [88:30] is actually the funniest thing about the [88:31] dome. Microsoft bought all the land. [88:34] Here's this big land where they'd run a [88:36] bunch of power and water for their fake [88:37] LCD factory. What do you need power and [88:40] water for? You need them for data [88:41] center. So, Microsoft bought all the [88:42] land and they have ever so slowly been [88:44] expanding their data center ideas in [88:48] Mount Pleasant, Wisconsin. Most notably [88:50] because Microsoft President Brad Smith [88:52] is from Appleton, Wisconsin. So, he's [88:54] investing in his home state. Love Brad [88:56] for this. Very good. [88:57] >> Anyway, they just uh announced they want [88:59] to build 15 more data centers on the [89:02] Foxon campus. It's going to be like a [89:04] data center campus and they're trying to [89:06] get approval for it. And they are [89:08] promising, and this is why I think it's [89:10] interesting that they're going to [89:11] they're going to give back more water [89:13] than they're using, which seems to [89:16] violate the water cycle, but like more [89:19] power to you, Brad. [89:20] >> Yeah. And that's how Microsoft is trying [89:22] to get over the enormous amounts of [89:25] community opposition to data center [89:26] that's popping up all over the country [89:28] which we've written about. And just in [89:30] the context of this, you recall this is [89:32] a tiny community that really thought [89:34] Foxhome was going to revitalize [89:36] southeastern Wisconsin. [89:37] >> It was 15,000 jobs they were promising. [89:39] >> 15,000 jobs, an entire network of [89:41] incubators for startups. They were going [89:43] to do robot cars. Like every idea you [89:46] could have, none of it came to pass. And [89:48] now Microsoft is saying, "Okay, here's [89:50] what we can do here. It's data centers." [89:52] And the community is pushing back [89:53] because people hate data centers. So now [89:55] Microsoft is promising they're going to [89:57] they're going to solve the power [89:58] problem. They're going to pay for their [89:59] own power and not raise power rates in [90:01] the area. And they are making big [90:04] promises about replenishing the water [90:06] because if you recall, the water for [90:08] that site comes from the Great Lakes, [90:09] which people in Wisconsin care about a [90:11] great deal. This is a lot and it's all [90:14] because Wisconsin basically did not stop [90:17] for one minute to ask, "Hey, is it a [90:19] good idea to build an LCD factory and [90:20] we're seeing Wisconsin?" [90:22] They answer the question to which the [90:24] answer from the very beginning was no. [90:27] Anyway, Microsoft in my hometown, I'll [90:28] drive by it the next time I go home. [90:30] We'll we'll see if I'll see what they [90:31] want to do with the dome. [90:32] >> You feel like this one gets higher odds [90:34] of being a real thing at some point? [90:37] >> Yes, they're they're already building [90:38] the stuff again. They're committed to [90:40] it. They need the capacity. They need [90:42] the water. They need the land. I think [90:44] they're going to get approval. I just [90:46] don't think it's going to generate a [90:47] bunch of jobs and like revitalize the [90:48] economy. Like the economy in that part [90:50] of Wisconsin right now is basically a [90:52] bunch of like Amazon logistics [90:53] providers. Like there's big warehouses [90:56] all over there and they're all 3PL's [90:57] like [90:58] >> Yeah. [90:58] >> So, [91:00] >> yeah. Yeah. Well, we Well, it's just it [91:02] feels like just have Josh move there for [91:04] the next 12 months and we'll [91:06] >> I would say that the the Fox Con of [91:08] Trump 2 is the phone for us. Do you know [91:11] what I mean? [91:13] >> There's a sentence that no one who has [91:15] ever every new listener of the Vergecast [91:18] just that went what and stopped [91:20] listening. [91:20] >> It is a little [91:21] >> if you understood that you were our [91:22] people a little bit harder. Do you [91:24] remember the first big story we did on [91:26] Foxcon Wisconsin is we just sent Josh [91:28] Jeza around Wisconsin asking anyone if [91:31] they'd seen Foxcon and they were like [91:33] nope. [91:35] >> They're like who? [91:36] >> And then all of the buildings they had [91:37] bought were empty. And we just ran [91:39] photos of the empty buildings. And then [91:41] Foxcon had a press conference to [91:43] announce they were buying another [91:44] building. And at that press conference a [91:47] Foxcon executive said, "The buildings [91:49] are not empty." And we were like, "Yeah, [91:52] they are. Here are the photos of the [91:53] empty buildings. Like, it was so chaotic [91:56] and all of it's all happening again with [91:58] the phone. I just need to find something [92:00] that hits as hard as photos of empty [92:01] buildings. If you know, let me know. [92:04] We're We're on the case. [92:05] >> I'm sure there are empty buildings [92:06] involved in this story. I'm just saying. [92:08] >> This LLC is in a strip mall somewhere in [92:09] Kansas, and we're going to go to that [92:11] strip mall. That's all I'm saying. [92:12] >> Yes, 100% agree. Um, all right. My last [92:14] one is is very quick, and uh it's that [92:18] YouTube CEO Neil Mohan published his [92:20] sort of annual letter. He does this at [92:22] the beginning of every year. Basically [92:24] laying out a bunch of priorities for [92:26] YouTube in the year to come. Uh bunch of [92:28] different stuff, some small YouTube TV [92:30] announcements, some things going on. But [92:31] the one that caught my eye and a lot of [92:33] people's uh is that at some point this [92:36] year, creators are going to be able to [92:38] make shorts using AI versions of their, [92:42] and I'm these two words are in quotes [92:43] because they're very important, their [92:45] own likeness. [92:47] So sure, [92:48] >> there was not a lot of information, uh, [92:52] not a lot of new ideas about what this [92:54] is going to mean, not a lot of [92:55] specificity when we reach out to [92:56] YouTube. Um, but this suggests to me [92:58] that YouTube is so far down the just use [93:03] AI to make your stuff rabbit hole that [93:05] actually what they're trying to do is [93:06] not make you have to be in the video at [93:09] all. Not that long ago, it was AI [93:11] backgrounds and we're going to use AI [93:13] to, you know, make to find the right [93:15] music for your video and whatever. We've [93:17] gone in in the span of not a long time [93:20] all the way down to just type in a [93:23] prompt and it'll make a short for you [93:24] with you with your face in it. [93:26] >> How many videos have I seen of shirtless [93:28] Donald Trump and Nicholas Maduro doing [93:30] dances in the in the Oval Office? It [93:32] it's it's more than I have wanted to [93:34] see. [93:34] >> They're just doing Sora. [93:36] >> Yeah. I mean, this is this is uh this is [93:39] the final solution to creator burnout. [93:41] You don't want to make a video today and [93:42] you want to go on vacation, let the AI [93:45] make videos of you for a week while [93:46] you're gone. Who knows, man? I I feel [93:49] like all these platforms are so [93:51] nihilistic about AI on their platforms [93:54] and AI content flooding their platforms [93:56] that they're all just giving in. [93:58] >> Yeah. Oh, yeah. [93:59] >> There's not a single ounce of thought [94:01] about do consumers want this [94:04] anywhere in this. It is just we have [94:07] weird monopolies. The they're already [94:09] these algorithms are already flooded [94:11] with AI slop. We might as well just be a [94:13] part of it. That's what we talked about [94:14] with Miss Instagram. Yep. [94:16] >> Alison wrote about that this week. I [94:18] suspect as YouTube rolls this out. It's [94:19] what we're going to talk about YouTube [94:20] and and and their creators and their AI. [94:22] And I keep saying that creator economy [94:24] is going to implode this year because of [94:27] the pressure being put on all these [94:28] platforms and all these creators. And [94:30] this is just the biggest pressure of [94:32] all. [94:33] >> Yep. When supply goes infinite because [94:35] of AI, [94:36] the rates for the brand deals that keep [94:38] all these creators in their homes will [94:41] drop and then you have you have no other [94:43] game to play except being one of one [94:47] being Mr. Beast. That's a game you can [94:49] play very hard or just infinite content [94:53] which means you're going to turn to AI [94:54] likenesses of yourself, [94:55] >> right? and and either YouTube and [94:58] everybody else fundamentally [95:00] misunderstands what their creators want [95:02] or they just absolutely don't care and [95:05] think that it doesn't matter what they [95:07] want because the the toothpaste is out [95:09] of the tube and AI is going to win [95:10] anyway so we might as well embrace it. [95:14] Yeah. I mean there's another version of [95:15] this where YouTube says, "Hey, we value [95:19] the authentic creator. we will unrank or [95:22] dank or dep prioritize AI content and [95:26] make sure that the stuff that our actual [95:27] creators are making is good and people [95:29] can find it if they want it and instead [95:31] they're saying nope we're going to let [95:32] the creators make AI content and there's [95:34] something I I just I think it's pure [95:36] nihilism I think they can't figure it [95:37] out and they don't want to also if [95:39] you're YouTube you can't say AI is bad [95:42] because you work at Google [95:43] >> right [95:44] >> so like what are you going to do um man [95:48] I don't know I I I [95:50] >> I have a lot sympathy for creators in in [95:52] in this year to come because I think the [95:54] pressure on output is going to go [95:56] through the roof is all of these [95:58] platforms are just flooded with AI slop. [96:01] >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, back to what we were [96:02] talking about at the beginning, right? [96:03] That the the way to win is just to do a [96:05] lot of stuff as fast and loudly as you [96:07] can. [96:08] >> Uh you're not going to beat the AI AI [96:10] models at loud and fast. You you're just [96:14] not. Every second I watch an AI cat [96:17] doing that electro breakers dance. You [96:20] know what I'm talking about. Don't [96:21] worry. [96:22] >> This one I actually know this. [96:24] >> Every second you spend watching that is [96:25] a second you're not watching a real [96:27] person. [96:27] >> Yep. [96:27] >> And that that's how these platforms [96:29] work, right? There there's only a [96:30] limited amount of time. They're all just [96:32] monetizing attention. Every second you [96:34] watch that AI slop is a second you're [96:35] not watching a real person. I know [96:37] creators want they say it to us. We are [96:39] friends with a lot of creators. They [96:40] want to make the content that they are [96:41] passionate about and find a real [96:43] audience that cares about them. And you [96:45] listen to how some of them talk about [96:47] their content strategies and they're [96:49] like, I make the one thing for the [96:50] brand. I make the one thing for the [96:52] algorithm and then I try to make one [96:54] thing for myself a month. And you're [96:55] like, that sucks. Like that already [96:58] feels painful to me. Again, I'm saying [97:01] this out of sympathy. Like these are [97:03] people I care about. That already feels [97:05] painful to me. And then you add you need [97:07] to make infinite content to compete [97:08] against the dancing kitty cats. I don't [97:11] know, man. I like I I hope these [97:12] platforms come to their senses. I hope [97:14] the creators push on these platforms in [97:17] serious ways to to strategy shift. We're [97:20] certainly going to do reporting on it, [97:21] but I man again it's it's nothing but [97:24] sympathy. I know a lot of people think [97:25] I'm I'm doom and gloom and I dislike [97:27] creators. Like I I promise you this is [97:29] coming from I know a lot of these people [97:31] who work really hard and they are trying [97:33] really hard to build real businesses and [97:35] they are just buffeted by other people's [97:37] ideas that they have to respond to [97:39] because of the algorithms. [97:40] >> Yep. [97:40] >> Anyway, you should own your own [97:41] audience. That's the end of it. That's [97:43] the main thing I have to say to you. [97:44] >> True. I can promise everybody one thing [97:45] which is that you and I will not be [97:47] replaced by AI because that what what [97:50] would we do all day then? Do you know [97:51] what I mean? Like [97:51] >> I send angry letters to Brandon Carr [97:53] obviously. [97:55] >> All right. All right. So, this podcast [97:56] is going to be me and AI Nei at some [97:58] point in the very near future. Uh, but [98:00] until then, we should get out of here. [98:02] Uh, Neili, this is this has been a [98:03] delight. Um, we're going to go we're [98:05] going to do one of these live in [98:07] Wisconsin. [98:08] >> Oh, that would be that would rule [98:10] actually. [98:11] >> This is what I'm saying. Also, I don't [98:12] know if people have told you about the [98:14] um Top Gear in China thing that Andy and [98:17] I have been cooking up where the three [98:18] of us are going to go to China and go on [98:19] EV adventures together. Um, we floated [98:22] this on the show this week. The the [98:25] feedback has been incredible. I think [98:26] this may have this may this may have [98:28] gotten away from us already. It's gonna [98:29] be great. [98:30] >> The like you can't pay us to say what [98:32] you want is going to come into real [98:33] conflict with Chinese EV companies allow [98:36] us access to their facilities and cars. [98:38] >> What could possibly go wrong? [98:39] >> It's going to be great. [98:40] >> That's it for the Vergecast. Uh [98:42] remember, as always, if you subscribe to [98:43] The Verge, you can get this podcast and [98:45] all of our podcasts. Uh we talked last [98:47] week about the decoder you were going to [98:49] do explaining the whole Grock scandal. [98:51] That's out now. It's a really good [98:52] episode. Go listen to it and you can [98:54] listen to it and all of our other shows [98:55] adree if you subscribe to the Verge. [98:57] It's a very good website. We're doing [98:59] our best over here. The [99:00] verge.com/subscribe. [99:01] Uh reach out. We want to hear from you [99:03] about anything and everything. [99:04] Vergecasterge.com is our email. The [99:06] hotline is 866 Verge11. This show is a [99:09] production of the Verge and the Vox [99:10] Media Podcast Network. Today's show is [99:12] produced by Eric Gomez, Brandon Kefir, [99:13] and Travis Larchuk. We will see you next [99:16] week. Nei rock and roll.