Transparency, Community, and the Human Touch With Miriam Schwab  ## Metadata - Author: [[Open Channels FM]] - Full Title: Transparency, Community, and the Human Touch With Miriam Schwab - Category: #podcasts - URL: https://share.snipd.com/episode/4738ae6e-de98-479f-ac4d-21c7ec80039c ## Document Notes ## Highlights - **Transparency Builds Community Trust** - Transparency builds trust and creates clearer relationships in business and open source. - Treating your community as both paying and non-paying users fosters a community culture. Transcript: James Kemp Thinking matters and what it kind of means to you in your role? Miriam Schwab So I think that all businesses have to consider how transparent they are in all industries. Transparency engenders trust and just generally a clearer relationship, I think, between the company and their customers and end users. In the case of an open source industry, I think transparency takes a different, it has a bit of a different angle, perspective on how a company operates. I mean, that's how I see it. And that often takes a community orientation as well. Our CISO, you know, head of security, like at Elementor, he describes our business as B2C, but the C is community, not customer. Obviously, we care about our customers. But the vast majority of our end users are not paying customers. And even those that are still very much part of a community type of culture. So we have to think about how we engage and communicate with all of those users, paid and otherwise, in a way that is suitable for our business model and the open source industry that we're In. James Kemp So they're not paid because they're using the free version. Yeah. Yeah. Miriam Schwab Our free version of Elementor has over 18 million active installs. Wow. Our paid version has less. And most of our users are using our free version. And that goes for our other products as well. So we now have almost like a suite of products with more to come. ([Time 0:02:13](https://share.snipd.com/snip/c725fc3d-903f-4f97-a9b2-19bf1c29d85d)) - **Open Beta Feedback Loops** - Elementor shares beta releases and roadmaps openly for community testing and feedback. - This transparency has led to improved products despite occasional community disagreements. Transcript: Miriam Schwab Just tickets to us with people explaining things that aren't clear to them, and that helps us improve our products. So we have a very tight feedback loop. And also we have, I'm sure, you know, I think most of the Open Source products have this, but we have a beta release phase, which is fully available in GitHub. And we communicate quite thoroughly around that. So in GitHub itself, with every beta release, there's already like kind of like a post with all of the information about what is included in the upcoming release. People can test it out and already start opening issues and reporting anything or giving feedback. We also have a developer's blog, so that gets more technical, but that already is posted during the beta phase so that users can dig in there. And basically, unlike maybe businesses and other industries, we're saying, here it is, open in all its glory or not glory because it's in a beta. And please use it and try it and let us know what you think. And users can opt in to be beta users as well. You can obviously install it in staging sites or whatever locally, but users can opt in to be part of the automated beta process. And we highly encourage it. And then, like I said, it helps us make better products. Obviously, not everyone is always happy with everything that is done or not done. We get not only complaints about, let's say, how we rolled out. We've heard a lot about people wanting a particular feature. They've submitted a lot. There's a ticket or an issue in GitHub that's got a lot of engagement. And then we roll out what we think they want. And then they're like, ah, we didn't mean that. Or people will be asking for something for a long time and we won't do it. And then they are upset about that. But like with every product, there's something you'd have to weigh a lot of different things around features. Just because some people want it doesn't mean it's actually good for everyone. And also there's priorities, and the priorities are often related to other needs or the strategic roadmap. ([Time 0:05:56](https://share.snipd.com/snip/5aed31f7-d5b8-491c-b9c2-841154aa3f19)) - **Public Roadmaps Build Confidence** - Public roadmaps and live update shows keep users informed and confident about upcoming features. - This openness tightens valuable feedback loops between users and developers. Transcript: Miriam Schwab Speaking of roadmaps, so we always had a roadmap, but it wasn't like super organized in terms of how it was shared. But now you can go to elementary.com/roadmap. I think that's the URL and see what's coming next. And then people can also be in the loop about that, like in that way and keep an eye on the roadmap in terms of, you know, features that we're planning on rolling out soon. And then we also started doing over the last year and a half, I don't remember exactly when we started it. We have this live roadmap show with the goal of it being, here's what's coming next. So we have one that kicks off the year, so it's kind of like a broader one, but then every quarter-ish, there's another one that says, this is what was done, a bit of what was done, and here's What's coming next. So people are always able to be aware of what's down the road, and that helps our users feel more confident ([Time 0:07:58](https://share.snipd.com/snip/b1d4717f-39fd-4d07-bc59-870ef8ee1f01)) - **Human Connection Boosts Loyalty** - A strong product and a human connection to its creators both build lasting loyalty. - Knowing founders come from the same user background strengthens trust and brand affinity. Transcript: Katie Keith Really stand out amongst the competition. Miriam Schwab I agree. I think products are about a few things. One is obviously what the product is, right? Is it something that people like, value, and bring some value, which is something that Elementor is always aspiring to. We want Elementor to be our user's power tool. That's how they describe it to us. But then it's also the sentiment towards the company that's creating it because of many reasons. But one of the things about Elementor is that the founder story is our founders ran an agency and were looking for something that would help them do their work better. And they felt like there was a need for this type of tool and felt it. And so, and I had an agency and many of us here had like, you know, dealt in the agency life. So we're actually, we see ourselves as being in the trenches with our end users and we want to be with them, you know, in their work, in their processes, in their workflows, in their challenges, And hopefully helping them overcome them so that they can do what they love and do it better. ([Time 0:09:17](https://share.snipd.com/snip/9c9ce9fd-544a-4e76-96f5-36099cc669e8)) - **Own Challenges Transparently** - Communicate transparently about challenges, not just successes. - Owning issues like security incidents builds long-term trust over hiding them. Transcript: Miriam Schwab Communication isn't just about communicating around the good things, the shiny things, right? It's also communicating transparently around challenges. So challenging things can be saying to someone clearly and transparently and empathetically, this isn't happening now. And that's important. You can't leave people hanging. Also around security issues, which hopefully none of us ever have, but we do. And thank God we haven't had anything major for quite a while, actually. But when we have had, like sometime after I joined, there was a big security issue at Elementor. And I actually got involved around the communication side of things. I felt like we could do better and creating processes around how we own the issue, say we are aware and that we're on it and we're fixing it. And then how did we fix it and why did it happen? And all of that stuff needs to be communicated like brutally transparently to also be, everyone has issues. So like what the question is, do we sweep it under the carpet or do we own it? And so owning it in the long run, rather than trying to hide it, is a much better strategy. It's better for everyone. It's more straightforward. It's more transparent. It's more in the spirit of open source. ([Time 0:10:54](https://share.snipd.com/snip/e1680ee1-13d8-423a-8392-d2d00e20b080)) - **Local Community Engagement** - Elementor’s most active user community lives on Facebook and Discord. - Hiring local community managers supports grassroots engagement and localization efforts. Transcript: Miriam Schwab When it comes to specifically the Elementor ecosystem and Elementor users, so I would say our strongest community is probably our Facebook community. It's called the Global Elementor something group, something like that. I just go there. I don't remember what it's called. Global Elementor something. And it's very active and very engaged. And so we are active there in terms of keeping our community updated and responding to questions. Our team gives a lot of support to people there. We also have a Discord community, which is going quite well for people who prefer that for various reasons. And so the community is there as well. We used to have in-person meetups, like Elementor meetups around the world. And then that kind of stopped around COVID and other things. But we're restarting local communities now. We actually are hiring local community kind of leader managers. It's not just about the community, it's also about localization. So we now have two people who are starting with us in one person and will be our Greek-German manager and someone for Spain. And hopefully soon we're going to have someone in Italy and France. And they will lead the elementary community there both in terms of like, you know, what you assume is community activity like meetups and things like that, but also on the localization Front, speaking to our users in those particular locales, not only in their language, but also culturally, like what holidays do they have? Let's talk about your holidays. Let's maybe have campaigns around your holidays. Let's have events around your holidays. We can kind of know, but we don So, so that's, that's starting now. ([Time 0:14:38](https://share.snipd.com/snip/19de3950-8a41-4cd2-990f-4d2f8162be19)) - **Go Local to Go Global** - To truly serve global users, businesses must embrace local cultural and legal differences. - WordPress’s success in countries like Japan owes much to localization. Transcript: James Kemp How do you handle, so we had a tweet earlier today, actually, about someone was looking for more invoicing functionality within WooCommerce Core. And then someone else, Marco, who I believe is in Spain or Portugal, replied saying that actually in the EU or where he is in Portugal, invoicing has to go through like very specific accounting Or software that handles it in a very specific way. And it wouldn't be helpful to have it in core. And I think that's the kind of like local things that you're not necessarily aware of. I know, for example, like California has its own set of rules with regards to subscription products and you've got like the EU VAT rules and all that kind of stuff. So it's definitely one of the benefits of being community-based is that you get all this input from different places. But it's also one of the challenges, you know, like how do you serve all of these different, you know, cultures and communities that all have different laws and rules and work in different Ways. But without the community, you wouldn't have that input. And you might, you know, put something into product that doesn't serve everyone in the best way. So I think it can be quite valuable. Miriam Schwab I think it's very easy for all of us to take the easy route, which is just serving people who are like us. But if we want to be more global and have more of an impact, and if we want our products to help more people, then we need to go outside of our comfort zones and learn the ropes of different Places. Compliance and that type of stuff, like this type of financial thing with invoices, it's really the worst. So WooCommerce being a product related to buying and selling specifically, I guess that's something that you have to think about. Elementor obviously has a lot of WooCommerce users as well. Mean, we have to think about these types of things to a certain extent as well. Like, you know, we localize our pricing and currencies that we can receive and all that kind of stuff. But in the end, yeah, it depends what we want to achieve and how we prioritize that. Obviously, some locales are like much more challenging. So, you know, maybe you don't prioritize that. Every business has to look at what they're trying to achieve. But it is interesting and it's exciting. ([Time 0:17:53](https://share.snipd.com/snip/a991f59d-ede9-40bc-8def-1b996c409dc6)) - **Balance Openness with Certainty** - Share concrete product plans rather than speculative ideas to avoid disappointing users. - Offer transparency on finalized features and provide early access for meaningful feedback. Transcript: Katie Keith Do either of you do anything like that in a more business sense? Miriam Schwab I just want to say that I love your tweets and what you share. It is very interesting. Thank you. Yeah. Seeing like the behind the scenes of how business runs, anyone who's interested in running business. I had two businesses. It's just, it's interesting to learn from you and hear how you're making the decisions. You're very transparent. I think you're very unique in that. I think most businesses aren't. I think it's a strength for you and your business. You stand out and you also, your business is very transparent, which I think is appealing. In terms of how we approach it, the stage that Elementor is at, so I think we reached 400 employees. So we're not at all as big as automatic, let's say, but we're not small. And we're managing many products and strategies and initiatives. We don't share all of the things that are happening behind the scenes. I think it would be too risky for us to be like, hey, we're considering doing this kind of product or that kind of product. Like, if we consider building a new product, then it's based on a lot of research and analysis that is done by teams here. A lot of it does include speaking to end users, but not in a public format. We learned kind of the hard way not to promote a product that's not 100% going to be launched. That happened. I won't say which, but when that happened, we were like, okay, it's disappointing. I don't think it creates more trust with our users. That kind of, I guess you could say it's kind of a failure. I'm not a big believer in failures. It was a learning experience. And we learned how to decide what products we're going to develop next. But we share that with our community to a certain extent and then people were disappointed or, you know, wondering what happened. So we want to share as much as we can, which is a lot, when it's pretty concrete. ([Time 0:23:03](https://share.snipd.com/snip/c7768f18-60d0-45e5-bb38-2044d66cc9a3)) - **Selective Business Transparency** - Be transparent about business operations selectively to avoid revealing sensitive details. - Sharing top-level revenue can build trust without exposing product-specific figures. Transcript: Katie Keith So, for example, people think I am super open about revenue because I share our top level revenue numbers. But I very rarely share numbers for specific products. And one advantage that we have at Barn 2 is that we have 19 premium products. So if I share revenue, I'm not actually giving competitors anything useful for specific products. Whereas if, say, you told people what Elementor Pro generates in revenue, that is about that one product. So people can ascertain the size of the market, for example. So people think I'm super transparent, but there are still decisions to be made about what not to share. ([Time 0:26:37](https://share.snipd.com/snip/2489771c-2240-4de0-ba8e-1e2903273f8c)) - **Aggregate Diverse Feedback Channels** - Use multiple feedback channels: support tickets, community input, and GitHub issues. - Aggregating feedback helps prioritize real user needs effectively. Transcript: James Kemp You mentioned a feedback loop. What does that look like? Do you kind of feed all the different sources of feedback into a single place and then deal with it there? Or is it just as it comes? Miriam Schwab So there's a few like signals. A big one and a helpful one is CX tickets. It helps us identify if there are any issues that can be improved. Either like, let's say we've released something and like a lot of people are saying like, hey, the button's gone. Then we're like, oh, button's gone. We better fix that. Or, I mean, we do a lot of QA, but you know, things can happen. Or like saying, how do I backup my site? I don't know, just as an example. Like let's say for our hosting, how do I backup my site? Well, then clearly we haven't made it clear how to backup your site. So then, you know, we'll consider adding to our roadmap or pipeline and some kind of UI improvement that helps people figure out how to back up the site so that we can reduce the tickets And make a better experience like that kind of stuff. There's the sent complaints in the communities. It's not all complaints. There's constructive feedback. We'll call it that. And then our GitHub is great. It's really helpful for aggregating. We often send people there and say, please open issue, and then people can comment for it, and that helps give an indication of the weight and importance of something. ([Time 0:30:20](https://share.snipd.com/snip/2b990e19-7606-4b4e-98d0-06a58dfefd98)) - **Use AI to Analyze Feedback** - Leverage AI tools to identify patterns in large, diverse feedback data. - AI can support efficiency but may still require human oversight. Transcript: James Kemp Factor. Are you using any AI tools to help you with that feedback? It's a good question. Miriam Schwab I don't know specifically that we are, but I imagine that we are. Elementor's all in on AI, so it's being used across all departments. So I imagine it's being used there as well. It really helps everyone become more efficient. James Kemp Yeah, it's super helpful. I wrote a post about it the other day, actually, just kind of like seeing patterns that you, you know, as a lousy human brain can't, you know, comprehend because of all the different sources That are coming in, you know, all at different times as well. You don't have this like data store of feedback in your head, whereas AI can help you see those patterns and interpret them, which is really helpful. Miriam Schwab I mean, AI is amazing and disappointing all at the same time. That's how I experience it. It's like, that's the thing you're like, oh, that's so cool. And then you're like, okay, now do this. And it like fails spectacularly. ([Time 0:31:40](https://share.snipd.com/snip/ba7cf85d-c186-49d6-9d02-85944112eb07)) - **Human Touch Over Tech Alone** - Customers connect more with human representatives than products or websites. - Maintaining a human touch at scale can differentiate a company. Transcript: Miriam Schwab I think that's true. And I think another angle is the human connection. So all of our companies have people who are accessible and recognized and engaged with the community. It's kind of like what we were talking about with localization, where you go global, but then you have to go back to grassroots and we want to scale. But then really the human element matters almost as much as anything else, I think. So if companies can have people like that who are really out there and engaging with their communities, their users showing up in different ways, whatever that means, obviously a person Can't be everywhere. My sense that helps the company stand out. I've always felt in business that people really want to connect with people like on the company side. They don't connect with a product or a website. ([Time 0:36:01](https://share.snipd.com/snip/d540e730-2395-46f1-bd31-fa08283c669e)) - **Balance AI with Human Support** - Use AI to handle repetitive tasks but ensure humans remain accessible for complex queries. - Clearly disclose when users interact with AI and facilitate handoffs to humans. Transcript: Katie Keith And there are so many inefficiencies from that. But it does mean that fewer customers are talking to a real person. And I'm not there yet. We're working on things like chatbots to write a draft for the support team to save them time. But if you really do abstract that support to an AI, say 75% of your queries are being answered without a real person, then you're losing that opportunity to connect. And I was talking to one WordPress company owner last week, who said that 75% of their support tickets are answered by AI, but the customer doesn't know it's AI. So what does that mean for personal communication? Miriam Schwab Well, I think with AI, what it does is it delays where you need like the value of human input. I mean, like that's for web builders, right? And well, everyone is doing everything. So like the kind of repeat rote stuff that like we're doing, but like maybe that's not where we bring the most value, offloading it to AI, I think can make sense. The question is, do these people really not know that they're communicating with an AI or not? And how far does that go? At what point do they start to be like, hey, that is not a person I'm talking to? Maybe they don't say it, but I think we need to be very careful about that, like, and think very carefully about where we want to make sure that there's still a human touch. Yeah, so people don't just get funneled into, like, systems and processes, and then potentially not get what they need and not get the attention they need. If AI can do it, then great. But I have a feeling that there's like a limit. 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