Trump Flirts With Nuclear Annihilation  ## Metadata - Author: [[Pod Save the World]] - Full Title: Trump Flirts With Nuclear Annihilation - Category: #podcasts - URL: https://share.snipd.com/episode/db16e183-300c-4980-b8b8-e9246ebaaffe ## Document Notes ## Highlights - **Danger Of Impulsive Foreign Threats** - Trump threatened to invade Nigeria after seeing a Fox News segment about a supposed genocide against Christians. - Ben Rhodes and Tommy warn this impulse-control-driven threat risks destabilizing relations with a crucial African partner. Transcript: Tommy Vietor Donald Trump is suddenly very, very worried about events in Nigeria. On Friday, he named Nigeria a country of particular concern, which is a designation given to countries that, according to the State Department, have engaged in or tolerated particularly Severe violations of religious freedom. Then on Saturday, Trump posted the following on Truth Social. The killing of Christians, the USA will immediately stop all aid and assistance in Nigeria. And we may very well go into that now disgraced country, guns a blazing to completely wipe out the Islamic terrorists who are committing these horrible atrocities. Okay. And then here's a clip of Trump talking about Nigeria on Air Force One from Sunday. I just wanted to ask you, do you envisage U.S. Boots on the ground? Sanna Marin Yes, it could be. I mean, a lot of things I envisage. A lot of things. They're killing record numbers of Christians in Nigeria. And they have other countries very bad also. You know that part of the world very bad. They're killing the Christians and killing them in very large numbers. We're not going to allow that to happen. Ben Rhodes He envisages a lot of things. So much envisages. I envisage many things. Tommy Vietor So what the hell happened that prompted this, you ask? Well, it turns out, according to NBC News, that Trump saw a report about Nigeria on Fox News. Of course. Great way to make policy. Great way to go to war. So I have not seen that segment yet. I'm positive. Ben Rhodes You don't need to see it. Tommy Vietor Yeah, we know what it was about. Yeah. So there's this belief among evangelicals that there's been this wave of anti-Christian violence in Nigeria to the point of it being a genocide. I'm sure it was about that. And so that led to these social media posts from Trump and then this massive scramble within the government to like catch up to whatever he was talking about. I saw one report, Ben, that said staffers at AFRICOM got like an emergency call to come back to the office and they were just scrambling to figure out military options to respond to a genocide Against Christians that's not actually happening. So that's great. So to be clear though, like there's a lot of violence in Nigeria. In the northeastern part of Nigeria, there's a terrorist group called Boko Haram that has launched brutal attacks on civilians, including on churches and mosques. Don't confuse them with Woko Haram, which did wage war on Twitter in the 2018-2019 period in a pretty brutal fashion. But so that region, northeastern Nigeria, is predominantly Muslim, and the majority of Boko Haram's victims are thus Muslims because they live in that community. Don't take my word for it. Key detail. Yeah, so last month, Mossad Balouse, who is Tiffany Trump's father-in said the following, people of all religions and of all tribes are dying. We even know that Boko Haram and ISIS are killing more Muslims than Christians. That this is not specifically targeted at one group or another. Again, Trump's advisor. In central Nigeria, there's clashes between these Muslim nomadic cattle herders and mostly Christian farmers. But that fighting is over scarce land and water resources, not like jihadist ideology. But this idea that there's a genocide against Christians is big among Republicans in Congress. It's big from Ted Cruz, talks about it a lot. And then the reaction in Nigeria to all of this has just been like confusion, I think. Yes, understandably so. Yeah, the president of Nigeria, Bola Tanubu. He's a Muslim guy, but he's married to a Christian woman who's a minister. So the idea that he's fomenting a sectarian warfare feels off. The truth is, like, it's really hard to combat terrorist groups, especially in a country like Nigeria that is huge, has lots of ungoverned spaces, among other problems. So, Ben, like, all you can kind of do is laugh at something this crazy. But can you just imagine how freaked out, like, your average Nigerian was? Like, one day you wake up, the president of the United States is threatening to invade you. And also, like, the country's half Muslims, half Christian. There are sectarian tensions, and this is just going to pour gas on them. Ben Rhodes You put your finger on one that really does matter because it's easy to chuckle at, but it's so obvious that he will occasionally just see some segment on Fox or OAN, or he'll like have A conversation with some visiting MAGA influencer. And then like all of a sudden we're on like the cusp of war or we're tariffing this country, or he's like demanding the arrest of some foreign leader. That is fucking weird. And as he gets older, you know, another thing that we're beginning to, I think, have to talk about a little more, like this impulse control problem could get worse, you know? And there's nobody around him there to say, you know, in Trump parlance, sir, maybe we can put that one in the drafts folder, you know? Because Nigeria is the largest country in Africa. Like he's literally threatening to- 230 a massive country that does not have this problem. Boko Haram has been around for a long time. They're an awful group. They kill indiscriminate of religion. As you said, they killed majority Muslims. There's literally no possible constructive U.S. Military engagement that I could imagine whatsoever. Like, so this is kind of either a completely bizarre and disastrous threat if it actually leads to some action. Or it's just kind of a bizarre thing to do to just kind of threaten to go to war with the largest country in Africa. And with a lot of racialized language too, you know, like we, bad things happening in that part of the world. And, you know, so. Now disgraced country. Nothing. Yeah. Nothing. Well, and actually like to be serious about it, you know, if you want to look at the geopolitics of this, like Nigeria is a massively important country, right? We talk about competition with China, like, well, what a great way to just signal that, like, get as far away from the Americans as possible. Like, sign up to every Belt Road initiative you can, Nigerians, because we are not reliable. Like, these things actually matter in the real world. ([Time 0:09:54](https://share.snipd.com/snip/95cf6571-3d75-4978-8165-be360fa525a0)) - **Sudan Shows International System Failure** - The RSF's takeover in Darfur has produced mass killings visible by satellite and indications of ethnic cleansing. - Ben Rhodes argues the international system's failure and lack of pressure on backers like the UAE enabled this catastrophe. Transcript: Tommy Vietor So last week we talked about the fall of the city of El Fasher in Sudan's Darfur region. They had been under siege for 18 months. And then finally troops aligned with the Sudanese government just abandoned the city. And they allowed it to be taken by a militia group called the Rapid Support Forces, or RSF. So civilians in El Fasher were already in the midst of a famine. They were eating animal feed to survive. But the violence since the RSF has taken over has been like Rwanda genocide levels of horrific. The Humanitarian Research Lab at Yale, they were looking at Al Fasher via satellite imagery. They said they have seen a, quote, explosion of objects that are the size and shape of dead bodies on the ground, and that there is discoloration around those clusters of bodies from All the blood. In other words, you can see the bloodstains from the massacres from space. We also have RSF soldiers posting videos of themselves executing civilians and then bragging about it. Men and boys are being separated from women and being summarily executed. The women are being abducted. The World Health Organization said the RSF executed basically everyone they could find at the last remaining working hospital in El Fasher, something like 500 people just executed. And then maybe most chillingly, Ben, so when El Fasher fell, there were believed to be about 260,000 people left in the city. But according to the Norwegian Refugee Council, less than 6,000 people have made it to the nearest refugee camp. And those that did had to survive like a 40 mile multi-day journey. And when they got there, they had stories about torture and beatings and witnessing executions as El Fasher fell. And it just really makes you wonder, like, where are the rest of those people? Save the Children sent us this clip from a staffer in Sudan who has been in touch with folks on the ground in Darfur. Her name is Odette Nandatambara. Here it is. Our teams responding in Tawila tell us that many of the families and children coming through Tawila are arriving with nothing. Recent stats from MSF show that out of the 70 children under five screened for malnutrition, 100% of those were found to be malnourished. Now, these results are deeply worrying, considering that many children as well are witnessing killings, lost their family members, or were separated from their loved ones. Some now are living alone or with a host family who themselves are struggling to cope. So, you know, ethnic violence is driving a lot of these atrocities. The RSF is predominantly Arab. The Yale lab said the RSF, quote, appears to be in a systematic and intentional process of ethnically cleansing of indigenous non-Arab communities through forced displacement in Summary execution. So, Ben, we, as we noticed last week, the world has ignored this civil war pretty much for years. Tragically, back in 2005, evangelical Christians were a huge part of the Save Darfur coalition that drew attention to that last genocide. Now, I guess they're focused on Nigeria or just they don't care anymore. As discussed, the United States has completely failed to put pressure on the United Arab Emirates to stop funneling arms to the RSF. In fact, the UAE has increased those shipments over the last few months, and now USAID no longer exists to help people who escape. So I guess the question is like, what the hell should the international community do now? Ben Rhodes Well, I think that the core way to think about what's happening in Sudan is this is the absence of any international order or system, right? Because normally there actually is like a pretty clear playbook about how you'd approach this. Now, remember, this all had roots in the fact that there was like a popular uprising that ousted a war criminal president of Sudan. And that was supposed to create some transition to democracy. Now, what inevitably happened is the regional powers did not want to see a transition to democracy. Some of them backed the Sudanese military, and some of them, like the UAE, backed this RSF force. But in a normal system, the international community would come in and say, okay, wait a second, like stop arming people in this proxy war, UAE, you know, if we, the U S are not going to sell You any more weapons, so long as you do that, like exert a little bit of leverage there, you have some kind of UN, you know, security council resolution aimed at kind of promoting, uh, Like a process for a ceasefire. You have, um, you know, international diplomats who go in and negotiate that. And then you'd have mechanisms of international assistance, like USAID working with others to like surge resources, people on the ground. None of those things exist now. Like there's no political will to put pressure on countries like the UAE that are funding the arms. There's not really the apparatus of the UN Security Council that can, you know, mount some initiative and set up a diplomatic process to get to a ceasefire. There's far less international assistance that can surge in. So what we're doing is we're seeing this is what it's like to not have an international system that works. ([Time 0:16:48](https://share.snipd.com/snip/28605a7e-eb91-41c4-b0d1-a11de9cd5c3f)) - **Use Leverage Against Proxy Backers** - Apply diplomatic and economic leverage on countries arming militias, like halting arms sales to the UAE until support for the RSF stops. - Use targeted sanctions and international pressure to disrupt proxy supply lines and reduce violence. Transcript: Ben Rhodes Well, I think that the core way to think about what's happening in Sudan is this is the absence of any international order or system, right? Because normally there actually is like a pretty clear playbook about how you'd approach this. Now, remember, this all had roots in the fact that there was like a popular uprising that ousted a war criminal president of Sudan. And that was supposed to create some transition to democracy. Now, what inevitably happened is the regional powers did not want to see a transition to democracy. Some of them backed the Sudanese military, and some of them, like the UAE, backed this RSF force. But in a normal system, the international community would come in and say, okay, wait a second, like stop arming people in this proxy war, UAE, you know, if we, the U S are not going to sell You any more weapons, so long as you do that, like exert a little bit of leverage there, you have some kind of UN, you know, security council resolution aimed at kind of promoting, uh, Like a process for a ceasefire. You have, um, you know, international diplomats who go in and negotiate that. And then you'd have mechanisms of international assistance, like USAID working with others to like surge resources, people on the ground. None of those things exist now. Like there's no political will to put pressure on countries like the UAE that are funding the arms. There's not really the apparatus of the UN Security Council that can, you know, mount some initiative and set up a diplomatic process to get to a ceasefire. There's far less international assistance that can surge in. ([Time 0:20:15](https://share.snipd.com/snip/245600b0-c482-49bf-a58b-0a5a99b151b3)) - **Why Nuclear Testing Is A Dangerous Step** - Resuming nuclear testing would break long-standing norms and likely trigger global escalation and environmental harm. - Ben Rhodes warns renewed testing would erode deterrence stability and invite competitive testing by rivals. Transcript: Tommy Vietor This started, of course, because of a truth social post. So last week, Trump posted the following, quote, because of other countries testing programs, I've instructed the Department of War to start testing our nuclear weapons on an equal Basis. That process will begin immediately. Don't tell them that the Department of Energy- Yeah, they don't manage the nuclear stockpile, but small detail. Details, details. It's only nukes. So this statement was seemingly in response to Russian President Vladimir Putin, who last week announced that Russia had tested an underwater nuclear drone that can create a tsunami And take out a coastal city, so he says, as well as a nuclear-powered cruise missile that flew for over 15 hours. But critically, both of those cases involve Russia testing the delivery system for a nuclear weapon, not the nuclear weapon itself. It's a nuclear detonation. And that distinction is a really big deal because the U.S. Hasn't tested a nuclear weapon since 1992. In 1996, we signed, along with many other countries, the Comprehensive Nuclear Test Ban Treaty, or CTBT. Before that treaty, the world's nuclear powers carried out over 2,000 nuclear tests. But since the CTBT, there have only been 10 total nuclear tests, two by India, two by Pakistan, and then six by Trump's buddies over in North Korea. So this is a good thing for a lot of reasons to state the obvious. Militarily, the status quo benefits the United States because the US conducted a little over half of the 2,000 nuclear tests, which means we have more data about nuclear detonations Than any other country, and we can use that information to create computer models to test our nuclear arsenal with computers. The Russians are next with about 700 tests. China has only done 45 tests. So if the world starts testing nukes again, it would really, really, really benefit China, which is the middle of a massive buildup of its nuclear arsenal, and I'm sure would love nothing More than more data to refine those nukes as they go. It's also, I mean, again, to state the obvious, it's really bad to fill the atmosphere with nuclear radiation all the time. But judging then by this exchange Trump had with 60 Minutes' Nora O'Donnell, it's not clear that he understands the distinction or really the issue at all. Let's watch. Sanna Marin Less than an hour before your meeting with President Xi, you posted on social media that you instructed the, quote, Department of War to start testing our nuclear weapons immediately. What did you mean? Well, we have more nuclear weapons than any other country. I think we should do something about denuclearization. And I did actually discuss that with both President Putin and President Xi. We have enough nuclear weapons to blow up the world 150 times. Ben Rhodes Russia has a lot of nuclear weapons and China will have a lot. They have some, they have quite a bit. So why do we need to test our nuclear weapons? Well, because you have to see how they work. You know, you do have to. Sanna Marin And the reason I'm saying testing is because Russia announced that they were going to be doing a test. If you notice, North Korea is testing constantly. Other countries are testing. We're the only country that doesn't test. And I want to be, I don't want to be the only country that doesn't test. Are you saying that after more than 30 years, the United States is going to start detonating nuclear weapons? I'm saying that we're going to test nuclear weapons like other countries do. But the only country that's testing nuclear weapons is North Korea. Russia's testing nuclear weapons. And China's testing them too. You just don't know about it. That would be certainly very newsworthy. My understanding is what Russia did recently was test essentially the uh delivery systems for nuclear weapons essentially missiles which we can do that but what not with nuclear russia's Tommy Vietor Testing and china's testing but they don't talk about it that's wrong uh okay so trump's team kind of scrambled to clean this up the energy secretary and the head of the u.s strategic Command both seem to walk the statements back but you never know with trump ben a lot of lots of thoughts on why this is so dumb, but please go off. Ben Rhodes Well, first of all, if there were tests of nuclear weapons, right, like secret tests, we would know about it. Like, you can't hide. Pretty easy to pick that up. You cannot hide the detonation of a nuclear device. So just in case anybody was wondering, there wasn't some big reveal there about the Chinese. We would be able to tell if someone detonated a nuclear device. This is completely- It's like a collection priority number 1A. Yeah, you can see that kind of thing. There's satellites, right? Now, this would be terrible. Look, CTBT has been one of the most effective international treaties in post-World War II era. Frankly, we tried to get it ratified in the Senate in the Obama years and didn't go anywhere because Republicans wouldn't ratify the treaty, but we basically act as if we're in line with The treaty. But the reason why is like, it doesn't take a genius. Like if you start breaking again, the norm of nuclear testing, A, that's potentially environmentally catastrophic. But also, you're just kind of loosening the norms on nukes in ways that then other countries start testing. Believe me, if the U.S. Starts testing nuclear weapons, the Chinese and Russians will do that. We're back at like peak Cold War. Other countries that are like nuclear curious. India and Pakistan. Yeah. Yeah. Might start saying like, we got to start testing or we if we don't have nuclear weapons, we have to get them. ([Time 0:27:39](https://share.snipd.com/snip/2a183869-d03e-49f5-a05d-67f9a6318ab3)) - **Testing Nukes Can't Be Hidden** - Nuclear detonations are easily detected, so secret testing is impractical and would be internationally obvious. - Maintaining the CTBT norm preserves U.S. advantage in data and reduces incentives for others to test. Transcript: Ben Rhodes First of all, if there were tests of nuclear weapons, right, like secret tests, we would know about it. Like, you can't hide. Pretty easy to pick that up. You cannot hide the detonation of a nuclear device. So just in case anybody was wondering, there wasn't some big reveal there about the Chinese. We would be able to tell if someone detonated a nuclear device. This is completely- It's like a collection priority number 1A. Yeah, you can see that kind of thing. There's satellites, right? Now, this would be terrible. Look, CTBT has been one of the most effective international treaties in post-World War II era. Frankly, we tried to get it ratified in the Senate in the Obama years and didn't go anywhere because Republicans wouldn't ratify the treaty, but we basically act as if we're in line with The treaty. But the reason why is like, it doesn't take a genius. Like if you start breaking again, the norm of nuclear testing, A, that's potentially environmentally catastrophic. But also, you're just kind of loosening the norms on nukes in ways that then other countries start testing. Believe me, if the U.S. Starts testing nuclear weapons, the Chinese and Russians will do that. We're back at like peak Cold War. Other countries that are like nuclear curious. India and Pakistan. Yeah. ([Time 0:31:24](https://share.snipd.com/snip/3d0b8a68-a8e4-432f-8e78-6de4ee62ce03)) - **FBI Director's Private Jet Controversy** - Kash Patel used the FBI government jet to attend his girlfriend's performances and posted photos, triggering public backlash. - Patel responded by forcing out an aviation official and railing against "internet anarchists." Transcript: Tommy Vietor One of those yes men. One of those yes men, one of our favorite yes men. So Ben, you guys probably know Ben and I are not the biggest fans of FBI director Cash Patel. He is absolutely unequivocally not qualified to do the job. He clearly got the job because he wrote a book that had a literal enemies list. And then he's shown that he's willing to go after the people Trump hates. Ben Rhodes And a book where Trump is like a wizard, right? Tommy Vietor Yeah, there's a kid's book too. Yeah, there's a wizard. It's the worst. Anyway, so this week, Cash has been big mad after getting his ass kicked up and down social media. So at issue is Cash's use of the FBI's government jet. Now, to be fair, Cash Patel, the FBI director, is required by law to use government aircraft when you travel because you have to have access to, like, secure comms equipment at all times. But there is no law requiring that the FBI director fly to see his girlfriend sing the national anthem at some low-rent, real American freestyle wrestling event at Penn State, nor does The law require that you give her a ride home to the city of Nashville where you don't actually live, which is what he did. It also does not require you to post photos of all this stuff on fucking social media, you stupid goober. So the story blew up when a former FBI agent who was turned into this right wing influencer type tweeted about Cash's trip. But again, it wasn't some state secret. Like you can track the FBI director's flight schedule using online tracking services. And again, Cash reposted photos of himself with his girlfriend at the events. He didn't have to be like an FBI agent to figure this out. However, that did not stop Cash Patel from flipping out and blaming others for his stupidity. Bloomberg News reported that Patel forced out an official overseeing aviation operations at the FBI. And he posted this Bill Ackman length tweet about it all, declaring that he will not be distracted by, quote, uninformed internet anarchists. What? And he pretended that people were going after his girlfriend, not him, and was like trying to act like how beyond the pale that was. So this is verbatim, Ben. The disgusting baseless attacks against Alexis, that's his girlfriend, a true patriot, and the woman I'm proud to call my partner in life are beyond pathetic. She is a rock-solid conservative and a country music sensation who has done more for this nation than most will in 10 lifetimes. I'll never forget in your wedding vows when you were like, Anna's a true patriot. Ben Rhodes 10 lifetimes. Tommy Vietor A true patriot. Isn't this woman like 26 years old too or something? Yeah, she's very youngel offering his thoughts on former fbi director christopher ray's use of government planes let's watch i'm not saying take all their funding i'm not the defund Ben Rhodes Everything guy i'm just saying chris ray doesn't need a government funded g5 jet to go to vacation maybe we ground that plane 15 000 every time it takes off this is the minimum. Tommy Vietor Maybe we ground that plane, Ben. Ben Rhodes There is a podcast clip for everything, isn't there, Tommy? It's remarkable. I mean, look, the one thing I'd add is this guy also seems to spend, like, a tremendous amount of time online. Oh, yeah. He's so triggered. And part of his constant tough guy defense is like, I'm so busy catching bad guys that I don't have time to worry about you fucking trolls. But all he's doing is clearly sitting on his fucking phone at the FBI headquarters between private jet rides to see his girlfriend, shitty country singer who's only getting gigs because She's dating the FBI director. Catching bad guys and baddies. If this isn't a grift, I don't know what is. I don't know either. Right? I mean, this guy's just living a fucking fantasy camp of FBI director. We're funding it. He's training in Quantico with the agents and posting social media pics of him looking like a tough guy. He's going to see Charlie Kirk and Valhalla and some weird cryptic things. That's really under-discussed. Tommy Vietor I'll see you in Valhalla, brother. What? Ben Rhodes We're just living through this act. And guess what? Here's the thing I would say. There are real life criminals that Kass Patel is not catching. Like his boss. When he's on the private jet ride to like the Penn State wrestling match that he's going to attend. Like there's white collar criminals. There's crypto scammers. There's money launderers. There's international terrorist organizations. There are these narco traffickers that they're always telling us about. Is Cash on the case or is he just dunking on like some Midas touch bot that triggered him online? Tommy Vietor This is the best part, Ben. It's not like the lefties that are getting him so mad. He is getting killed by, like, InfoWars. I watched this long segment of this dude just going so hard at cash. But we couldn't clip it because he uses the F slur over and over again. It was, like, crazy. But it's, like, the far right is going nuts on Patel on this, which is why he's getting so mad. Ben Rhodes Because look at that podcast clip. He pissed on their legs about the Epstein files, about ending corruption at the FBI, about all these things. And like, you know, now he's clearly not delivering the goods for those guys. Tommy Vietor No. And by the way, now Kash Patel has made it to services like FlightAware can no longer track his flight. So he took his G5 and went home. G5 went dark, you know. ([Time 0:40:41](https://share.snipd.com/snip/120eb43f-7841-4857-a633-b1376f853fb1)) - **Punishing Leaks Undermines Accountability** - In Israel the leak of a detainee-abuse video provoked anger at the leak more than the abuse itself. - Ben Rhodes says punishing whistleblowers rather than investigating abuses fosters impunity and war crimes risk. Transcript: Tommy Vietor So the details of the abuse are like truly awful. This guy was brutally clubbed and kicked and beaten for about 15 full minutes. He was shocked with a taser and his resulting injuries were life threatening and required surgery, including a severe injury to his rectum after being raped with a foreign object. Like that's what these monsters did to him in the span of 15 minutes. And the injuries were so bad that this guy needed to get medical treatment outside of this detention facility, which got it on the radar screen of Israeli military police that they launched An investigation. So after this investigation was launched, five Israeli reservists were charged with assault. And in response to those charges, there was this like massive right wing backlash and freak out. Like the worst right wing political leaders were stoking this. And protesters even stormed the detention facility. I think two detention facilities to try to like stop the prosecution. Right wing leaders were calling like the IDF lawyers were saying they were on the side of Hamas. You know, it's just sort of like the worst politics. So fast forward about a month later, a video of the assault was leaked to channel 12 news in Israel. And you can see in the video, like this, this detainee gets taken aside. He's surrounded by soldiers. They hold up riot shields to block what they're doing from view. And then 15 minutes later, they literally drag this man back to the other detainees and he can't even walk. It's like awful. So fast forward to last week on Friday, uh, on Friday, the IDF military advocate general, uh, major general Yifat Tomar El-Shalmi, uh, she resigned taking responsibility for leaking The video. And then, uh, on Sunday, she was arrested, but only after this like strange period of time where she kind of disappeared on the beach. Do you see all this? Like they found her car on the beach. No one could hear from her. There was a weird cryptic note. And everyone seems to think, like people thought she might have killed herself. At a minimum, she seems to have tossed her cell phone into the ocean. So I'm not sure that's going to work, by the way. Yeah. Usually those things are backed up in the clouds. Yeah, it's a cloud. Ben Rhodes It's such a thing. Tough. Tommy Vietor Anyway, now she's being prosecuted both for leaking the video, but also for lying about it. So just stepping back, it's important to note that the reaction to all of this in Israel is primarily anger about the leak itself. Yeah. Not the underlying activities. So the Israeli defense minister, Israel Katz, accused Tomer Yerol Shalmi of spreading blood libel. And Bibi Netanyahu said the leak, quote, caused enormous reputational damage to Israel, to the IDF, and to our soldiers. He didn't say the soldiers' actions caused the damage to the reputation. He said the leak did. Katz also said the next person in that role must, quote, not initiate or take part in blood libels that will defame IDF soldiers, harm their honor, and expose them to persecution throughout The world. So I guess they just get a pass if they do stuff like this in the future. It's also important to note that this detention facility was notorious for detaining abuses and human rights groups accuse Tomar Yolashami of turning a blind eye to those abuses over The course of the war until this one incident finally kind of became public. And also been just like as we're talking about cover ups, the Washington Post reported that the State Department's inspector general said the IDF has committed so many potential violations Of u.s human rights law in gaza that it will take multiple years to review them all assuming they even try uh so just an incredibly dark story about you know kind of like the lingering worst Ben Rhodes Abuses of the war in gaza there's just something deeply sick about a government and society where the crime is leaking the evidence of the criminal activity and not the absolute brutal Dehumanization of somebody in your custody. I mean, we see this pattern time and again, too, that there's this effort to kind of obfuscate any examination of facts. You know, it's either we don't, like, you wonder why there's still no international journalist allowed into Gaza, right? How many weeks ago was the quote-unquote ceasefire? And they still won't even let people in just to see the aftermath of the destruction of Gaza. This kind of any information leaking out of this prison system gets like brutally suppressed. The next thing that happens when people talk about this is they'll probably say like, what about Sudan? You know, anything, right, to just get the conversation off of this. And it does kind of speak to something that has always been a talking point that drove me insane in the Biden years, right? I mean, Trump doesn't even bother with it anymore. But you steer all the time from the Biden State Department when some horrible thing would happen and would leak out. Well, Israel must do an investigation. They're not going to investigate misconduct by the IDF. In fact, they're going to punish the people that reveal the misconduct by the IDF or whistleblowers, right? I just don't know how much more evidence people need. Tommy Vietor Yeah. And like, I was trying to think about Abu Ghraib and some of the incidents of like detainee abuse or abuse of POWs in the U.S. And like, I don't know. It hasn't been this bad. Like, I don't remember a right wing faction like storming the courthouse or storming Fort Bragg. But clearly, like, I think a lot of militaries, like, you know, circle the wagons like this and protect their people at all costs. It's a real dark stain. Ben Rhodes Yeah. What was bad about ours in Abu Ghraib and some of the others is that we tend to just kind of punish the low-level guys and actually, in some cases, women in Abu Ghraib. But nobody else up the chain has to be responsible for creating the environment. ([Time 0:47:18](https://share.snipd.com/snip/98db0888-bada-428c-a2da-3fc42071ede4)) - **Youthful Alternatives Can Beat The Far Right** - Recent wins in Ireland and the Netherlands show younger, optimistic candidates can beat far-right narratives. - Ben Rhodes sees potential for center-left renewal when parties act boldly and authentically. Transcript: Tommy Vietor Okay, so two quick updates on elections abroad that might provide you guys with some hope, some rare good news for fans of democracy and progressive politics. So let's start in Ireland, where Catherine Connolly just won a landslide election to become Ireland's next president. This is a largely ceremonial role, but she does have to sign every bill before it becomes a law or refer to the Supreme Court to assess its constitutionality. So there is some power there. It was also a weird election. One of the top candidates decided not to run for health reasons. Another pulled out like 19 days before the election itself because of a corruption scandal. But the result was a clear FU to the establishment. And Connolly's unabashedly lefty views on issues like Gaza have drawn comparisons to Bernie Sanders. And then over in the Netherlands. Ben Rhodes Oh, don't forget our buddy Conor McGregor, right? Yeah, he thought about running for a while, but he pulled out, right? He pulled out, yeah, yeah. Tommy Vietor What an idiot. Why do you want to run for president? Be the Taoiseach, dude. Ben Rhodes Yeah, yeah, yeah. Tommy Vietor Or clean up that cocaine problem. Okay, and then in the Netherlands, there was a 38-year centrist named Rob Yetten, who was part of the D66 party. He beat out a far right-wing populist named Heert Wilders in his party for freedom. This was a very, very close race. It was basically decided by people, Dutch folks living abroad. But Dutch political analysts say that Yetten's optimistic, forward-looking message ultimately was more appealing to voters than Wilders' nativism and racism and Islamophobia. And he is on track to be the youngest and first openly gay prime minister in Dutch history. The government formation process is a total mess because there's like a million parties and it'll take them a while to sort it all out. But hopefully this race can help others figure out a path to defeat these far right, right wing populists. Ben, any big takeaways from these races from you? Ben Rhodes The Ireland one is interesting only insofar as like Ireland, despite its relatively small size, has kind of begun. I mean, you saw this most acutely on Gaza, but they've become a bit more of a spotlighted country speaking out on other things around the world, you know, and they have this kind of weird Credibility as like a European country that was colonized for hundreds of years and as people that are just pretty fucking awesome, if you know Irish people, and as people that are, You know, a little neutral, like they're like that big NATO, you know, country. So that's interesting is that Ireland continues to be this kind of voice for the underdog in geopolitics and she'll do that. I think the Netherlands thing is really hopeful. Like Geert Wilders has kind of been driving the train of Dutch politics recently. It's informed his party in 2006, the Party for Freedom. He's been around forever. He's been around forever. And he kind of broke through like Farage is breaking through in the UK now in the last election. And it just kind of feel like something is stirring out there a bit with like younger, more unabashed parties like that are less afraid of taking on the far right. ([Time 0:56:26](https://share.snipd.com/snip/9aa3d592-3a22-4c95-8753-fb6cb23740f2)) - **Refugee Cap Signals Racist Policy** - Trump's refugee cap of 7,500 prioritizing white South Africans is overtly racist and damages international refugee norms. - Ben Rhodes warns slamming refugee doors undermines orderly immigration systems and global burden-sharing. Transcript: Tommy Vietor Shit. Along those lines, Trump has announced that he has decided to limit the number of refugees that will be admitted to the U.S. Over the next year to 7,500 people, only 7,500 people, and that white South Africans, known as Afrikaners, who are French and Dutch descendants, are going to get priority. 7,500 is the lowest allotment of refugees in our nation's history. It's literally half of what Trump took in, or the limit Trump set in the first term. Biden set his target at 125,000 refugees. Of course, Trump also ignored a law that required him to consult with Congress on these matters. I'm sure Speaker Johnson is drafting a very harsh letter as we speak. So Ben, it's just like the policy is just, it's so overtly racist and despicable. It's not surprising, you know, Trump paused refugee admissions back in January. So all these people are in limbo in the vetting process. He's been pushing to get white South Africans to come to the United States for a long, ever since he saw some Tucker Carlson, you know, the segment on a white genocide of South African Farmers in like 2019. But it is still disgusting. And just, it also, it's kind of like, it really jumps out to me that there is not more outrage or clear condemnation of what is just like unequivocally a racist policy. Yes. Ben Rhodes Well, that's the thing. I mean, it's useful in that it just reminds you of how at core, if you peel back all the layers of Trumpism, there is just like a core of racism that is fundamental to the whole project. It's baked in. It's not secondary, right? This is the birther president. This is like the Stephen Miller boss, right? Like this is actually their worldview manifested in saying, we're not going to take anybody but white South Africans, literally the people who did apartheid and were worried about Them out of everything in in the world. The other thing that bothers me about this is it's a moral abomination to slam the door on refugees. It's also going to make it harder. It's going to incentivize other countries to stop taking refugees. It's going to leave all these people in this limbo. It's going to kind of break the international system that requires countries to take refugees in. I know that, like, you can look at polls and refugees, support for refugees, polls like low. But in part, it's because nobody's been willing to defend these programs for like 10 years. Because actually, if you also look at polls, people tend to like the refugees in their communities. They're these hugely successful groups. The Vietnamese here in California are a good example of people that have built extraordinary communities in this country who are refugees. But also importantly, Tommy, if your concern is – and this is an argument I've not heard people make. If your concern about immigration or the border, right, is this kind of sense it's out of control. Like there are all these people, tens of thousands of people are crossing the border. We didn't know who they were. We didn't know you know, where they were going. There is actually no more orderly process for admitting people in the United States than the refugee admissions. And like their vetting is so strict. They are vetted like crazy. They have to wait in line. Like talk about coming through the front door, like you're applying for these slots. And so actually, if we ever could get back to a discussion about an actual legal immigration system that worked, that had a very secure border, that did not just let people to cross the Border with no process. A key part of that actually, I think, should be a big refugee program, because that's how you could get an orderly process to admit a certain number of people who've been vetted and all The rest of it. ([Time 1:00:48](https://share.snipd.com/snip/1ea71600-b069-4384-b61c-9abfa41a157f)) - **Marin's Scandals Reveal Gender Double Standards** - Sanna Marin recounts how social media amplified trivial scandals like her dancing and blazer photos. - She argues those incidents reflect structural double standards that deter women from political life. Transcript: Ben Rhodes Okay, I'm very pleased to welcome Sanna Marin to the show. She served as Prime Minister of Finland from 2019 to 2023. So COVID, the Russian invasion of Ukraine, Finland joining NATO, like lots of things happened, lots of things to talk about. And her new book is entitled Hope in Action, a memoir about the courage to lead. It is out this week. I encourage everybody to pick it up. It's an extraordinary story about an extraordinary time. Prime Minister, welcome to the show. Sanna Marin Well, thank you so much for having me. It's a pleasure. Ben Rhodes So I want to get into all the geopolitics with Russia, with the democracy versus authoritarianism issues that you dealt with. But I have to say, one of the reasons why people should read the book is it's also just an incredible window into what it's like for a person at a relatively young age, you were 34 years old When you became prime minister, to go through the kind of strangeness of ascending to the heights of politics, to be dealing with double standards that women leaders have to face. And I wanted to start by asking you about this line that really jumped out to me. Our political system struggled to acknowledge that politicians are also human. And you obviously had, you know, listeners to the show, remember, we followed the story about you dancing. But what I was struck by in reading this is you are clearly balancing wanting to still be human, be a mom, be a friend, with the responsibilities of politics. And I guess the question I wanted to ask you to start is just, do you feel like that's getting harder because of either social media, because of polarization? How concerned are you that maybe normal people might not want to go into politics because it looks so strange from the outside in? Sanna Marin Well, first of all, I have to say that politicians are just human beings. They are people. And I have had the privilege to work with a lot of politicians, of course, in the European Council with my colleagues in Europe, but also otherwise. And when I have worked with these people, I can say that they are just generally normal human beings. But we are not viewed politicians this way. And of course, social media platforms, and also the news cycle that is always speeding up and chasing for polarizing stories, because they sell more, and negative news actually sells Better than positive news. This all comes to the situation where politicians are quite scrutinized, They're constantly watched. People have cameras with their phones everywhere. So, of course, politicians are under a lot of pressure. And especially the younger generation and women and people from minority groups that are scrutinized otherwise as well are acknowledging this fact. And they are wondering that is this a platform where they can run, where they can participate, where they can actually take action. And that's real pity because we need people from all genders, different backgrounds, different age groups to participate in our democratic systems or otherwise our democracies Will fall and collapse. So of course, I worry about the fact that we are not always witnessing politicians as humans with all of their sides. ([Time 1:13:42](https://share.snipd.com/snip/aa9120ba-a40d-4fc4-a44b-945d230c20a9)) - **Protect Politicians From Online Harassment** - Treat online abuse as a societal problem and push for legal protections and platform accountability. - Provide collective support so individuals, especially women, don't face harassment alone. Transcript: Sanna Marin Even though I'm quite young, and I became the prime minister with only 34 years old, so I was young then, and I'm still relatively young compared to many politicians, but still when I Started in politics 20 years ago, when I was 20, I didn't have to deal with the social media that young people have to deal with today or everybody has to deal with today. So even though it was never easy, I think it was much more easier earlier when we didn't have to face that hostile and violent environment where people have to live nowadays. And especially, as I said before, young people, women, people from different minority groups, different ethnic groups, they have to face a lot of hostility coming to their homes from Different platforms. And this is scary. And I think how we should deal with this is not actually putting this on the burden of individuals, but actually we should look at this as a societal problem and a societal issue and acknowledge This as a violence against people like any kind of violence is. So we need legislation changes. We need protective measures. Social media platforms should take more action to combat these phenomenons. And we shouldn't let people to deal with this alone, because it is too much burden for any individual to deal with this kind of hostility that is out there. ([Time 1:18:28](https://share.snipd.com/snip/b3c9d888-3683-4586-a69e-7bd7c55bba66)) - **NATO Membership Rooted In Finnish Security** - Finland's decision to join NATO followed directly from Russia's full-scale 2022 invasion, driven by a need for collective security. - Marin frames the move as consistent with Finland's historic priority: preserving independence and safety. Transcript: Sanna Marin We had a long history and policy to be military non-aligned. And there were, of course, historical reasons behind this. But actually, the same reasons were also behind our decision of joining NATO. The most important thing for Finnish citizens has been always to stay independent, stay secure and safe as a country, to have the right to decide by ourselves. And up till that point when Russia attacked Ukraine with full-scale invasion, 2023, The war started already, 2014, when Russia invaded Crimea. But in 22, when Russia went to Ukraine with full force, the reason and the logic behind Finland joining NATO and applying NATO membership then was the exact same. We saw that not only the history books, but actually today, we have that kind of aggressive neighbor that starts full-scale invasion of war in Europe today. So we were seeking security, we were seeking to be more safe. And at that moment, it became real. The only way to secure ourselves were to apply NATO membership. But the logic and reasoning was exactly the same behind that, to make sure that Finland and Finnish citizens are safe. ([Time 1:26:11](https://share.snipd.com/snip/cff2ace7-080b-42e6-b9c7-92cb3d375e97)) - **Act Quickly To Support Ukraine** - Speed up arms, financial aid, and use frozen Russian assets to support Ukraine's defense and recovery. - Strengthen European defense capabilities so Europe can better shoulder collective security responsibilities. Transcript: Sanna Marin I think that we all could have done more, and we should have done more. The little we get, and the slower we give it to Ukraine, the little we give and the slower that we are giving it to Ukraine, the longer this war will continue. So, of course, we all should do more and we could do more. If we look at the percentage, how little actually European countries and countries in general are using money to support Ukraine, the amount isn't something that is huge. We could do so much more. And what Ukraine needs now, they need decisive decisions on the financial, supporting their financial situation, especially using the frozen assets of Russia to support Ukraine. And there are ways. And I'm really sad that the European Council couldn't do the decision in its last meeting. I only hope that they will reach this decision in their December's meeting. So using the frozen assets in a way that Ukraine could lend money to use that as a collateral, that would be one concrete example how to support Ukraine financially, because they need Money to continue in their defending themselves. They need military equipment, and they need it fast. And also there, of course, we as Europe could do more, but also US because US is the greatest military force that we have in the globe. So, of course, we need U.S. To help. And then the sanctions. We need more heavier sanctions and we need to make sure that the sanctions cannot be circled. Because there is a big problem also with the circulation of the sanctions. And this isn't any new news. We have known this for a long time. But now it is time to take real action and not only discuss about these problems that we have witnessed for a long time. So, of course, there are so many things that we could do. ([Time 1:31:55](https://share.snipd.com/snip/faa6ab2f-bac6-40df-be33-d26edde03aab)) - **Democracy Faces External And Internal Wars** - Marin frames today's struggle as two wars: authoritarian assaults on the rules-based order and internal democratic battles aided by foreign influence. - She urges social democrats to address real economic grievances rather than blaming immigrants. Transcript: Sanna Marin Well, I see that there's actually two wars going on in the world, if we would want to use this kind of wording. There is the challenging of the rules-based international order. Our authoritarian leaders, our authoritarian countries are actually questioning and challenging the whole international rule-based order that we built after the Second World War together, tried to build some kind of rules that everybody obeys, so that not only the strong and powerful rule with force, and this is being challenged. So we need, as a democratic country, to understand that there is this wider battle of values going on, the war in Ukraine or conflicts elsewhere are only part of this story. And then there is also war within our democracies. There are more and more actors within our democracies and also outside forces like Russia influencing in our democratic system and in our elections. And this is something that we have seen in Europe more and more, that there are actually Russian money, Russian influence, Russian misinformation used in our democratic elections, Trying to push those pro-Russian forces into power and gain that kind of far-right extremist way of thinking and get those actors and parties to governing. So we are living in a very difficult moment. And I know that many citizens watching, for example, nowadays, election discussion debates are quite confused because we don't anymore see the platforms where we can even share the Facts. It's very polarized and there is so much misinformation and also so polarizing and aggressive takes on things that many middle ground voters and people that are just normal people Are wondering what is going on. And I think this is a challenge where social democrats or liberals or moderate forces should really focus on Think back to the facts and value, real information, and try to have some Kind of middle ground, rational discussion about the things that really worries about people. And many times where also the far right wins, the people's worries are genuine. They are real. It's about housing, prices of everyday living, high inflation, energy costs. Can they support themselves, their families? What is the situation with their education systems or social welfare or social health care or different kinds of services? Are normal everyday problems that we need to tackle and face and not dismiss the people worries that they have, but give real solutions and not give the so-called solutions that the Far right many times has, like blaming the immigrants or blaming somebody else coming from outside. ([Time 1:36:26](https://share.snipd.com/snip/efbf98b3-d637-46d0-aa1a-f54f1f6ce26a)) - **Marin's Next Chapter: Policy, Family, Writing** - Marin isn't seeking office now and focuses on policy work, writing, and family, but won't rule out future political roles. - She emphasizes continued engagement on human rights, climate, and geopolitics from outside elected office. Transcript: Sanna Marin Even though I have, I would say, resigned the parliament quite early on, I'm now turning 40. So I'm still quite young when we compare to many politicians, but I've been in politics for 20 years. Like I said before, right now, I'm not seeking any position in politics. I'm really happy that I can work the ways that I do now. So I work with Tony Blair in his Institute for Global Change. We work approximately 40 countries globally, helping governments and leaders with their strategy, with their policy, and also the delivery of the things that they want to do in their Countries. And now I have been writing my book, Hope in Action, intensively for one and a half years. And finally, it's here. I'm very excited also to meet the people and discuss about also the hope that is there so we can all make our part in making the world better. And I'm still working on the same matters, human rights, climate, gender equality, rule based international order and geopolitics. And I still have passion for these issues. But right now, I don't have the passion to have that kind of political position. But maybe in the future, I would never, never say never. Now I'm also focusing just being my mom, because I have a seven-year daughter. And it's so nice to spend time with her more, that I didn't have the time when I was prime minister. So I'm also focusing on the little things in life and enjoying that. ([Time 1:40:35](https://share.snipd.com/snip/36fa9cf2-b8fe-44d8-b826-c36c40e2d400))