Uncoventional Backgrounds: The Secret Sauce Of Diversity by Sharon DeCaro 🔗 **Source:** [Uncoventional Backgrounds: The Secret Sauce Of Diversity by Sharon DeCaro](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O6v5pPeMJNY) > [!note]+ Document Notes > tags: [diversity, unconventional-backgrounds, tech-careers] > author: Sharon DeCaro > source: All Things Open > reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O6v5pPeMJNY > date created: 2024-12-28 19:45 > > # 🏷️ Title: Unconventional Backgrounds: The Secret Sauce Of Diversity > <!-- deep-read:sections start --> ## 🧰 Action Inbox - [H1] Recognize transferable skills from non-tech backgrounds — music/theater/athletics translate to teamwork #diversity - [H2] Advocate for unconventional candidates in hiring decisions — challenge degree requirements #hiring - [H3] Create inclusive learning paths for different backgrounds — not everyone learns tech the same way #education ## 🧭 Table of Contents - [📝 Summary](#-summary) - [📖 Main Content](#-main-content) - [🗒️ Notes](#️-notes) - [📚 References](#-references) - [🗣️ Paraphrase](#️-paraphrase) - [📰 Newsletter](#-newsletter) - [✅ Action Items](#-action-items) - [🧪 Hypotheses](#-hypotheses) - [📊 Methodology](#-methodology) - [❓ Questions](#-questions) - [🔮 Future Research](#-future-research) - [💡 Implications](#-implications) - [🧠 Learning Styles Assessment](#-learning-styles-assessment) - [📊 Accessibility Assessment](#-accessibility-assessment) - [🌍 DEIB Assessment](#-deib-assessment) - [✅ Logical Validity](#-logical-validity) - [🛡️ DARVO Analysis](#-darvo-analysis) - [🎯 Conclusion](#-conclusion) ### 🔗 References - [All Things Open Conference](https://allthingsopen.org/) - [Original Video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O6v5pPeMJNY) ## 📝 Summary - Sharon DeCaro presents how unconventional career paths bring valuable diversity to tech teams - Why it matters: Unique perspectives challenge assumptions and prevent organizational stagnation - Key stakeholders: Hiring managers, tech teams, career changers, and diversity advocates - Risks and tradeoffs: Short-term team friction vs long-term innovation benefits - Bottom line: Organizations need both conventional and unconventional backgrounds to thrive ## 📖 Main Content DeCaro argues that true diversity comes from experiential backgrounds rather than demographic checkboxes. She defines "unconventional" as anyone without a traditional CS degree or tech-only career path. Through personal anecdotes and audience interaction, she demonstrates how skills from music, theater, athletics, teaching, food service, and military service translate directly to software engineering capabilities. The core thesis is that uniform teams create dangerous stagnation, while diverse experiential backgrounds bring essential problem-solving approaches and communication skills. ## 🗒️ Notes #### ⏱️ [00:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O6v5pPeMJNY?t=0) — [H1] Opening engagement and childhood ambitions - Key idea: Career paths rarely follow childhood dreams - Evidence: "I wanted to be a ballerina firefighter" #### ⏱️ [02:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O6v5pPeMJNY?t=150) — [H2] Personal journey from math to programming - Key idea: Multiple rejections of programming before eventual adoption - Evidence: "I hated it" repeated for every early programming exposure #### ⏱️ [04:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O6v5pPeMJNY?t=285) — [H2] Accidental entry through data entry job - Key idea: Practical necessity drove skill development - Evidence: "I needed to support my spouse who was pursuing his PhD" #### ⏱️ [06:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O6v5pPeMJNY?t=360) — [H3] Excel macros to full-stack engineer - Key idea: Gradual skill building through workplace demands - Evidence: "You need to stop using SQL. You're doing things that don't belong there" #### ⏱️ [07:15](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O6v5pPeMJNY?t=435) — [H1] Core diversity value proposition - Key idea: Diverse perspectives challenge assumptions effectively - Evidence: "We want to have unique perspectives so that we can challenge our assumptions" #### ⏱️ [08:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O6v5pPeMJNY?t=510) — [H2] Taco Tuesday analogy for problem-solving - Key idea: New perspectives offer "why not both" solutions - Evidence: Hard shell vs soft shell resolved by combining approaches #### ⏱️ [10:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O6v5pPeMJNY?t=600) — [H2] Defining unconventional backgrounds - Key idea: Anyone without CS degree or tech-only career path - Evidence: "It's a very very broad distinction" #### ⏱️ [11:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O6v5pPeMJNY?t=690) — [H1] Music background transferable skills demonstration - Key idea: Chamber music requires non-verbal communication and coordination - Evidence: Live audience interaction with musician Melody #### ⏱️ [15:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O6v5pPeMJNY?t=945) — [H3] Theater tech troubleshooting skills - Key idea: Live performance troubleshooting translates to QA engineering - Evidence: "She said the main thing that she shared over was troubleshooting" #### ⏱️ [17:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O6v5pPeMJNY?t=1020) — [H2] Multiple background examples - Key idea: Athletes, teachers, food service, veterans bring unique skills - Evidence: "Teachers, my god, like you absolutely want teachers to be on your team" #### ⏱️ [18:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O6v5pPeMJNY?t=1110) — [H2] Military agility vs rigidity misconception - Key idea: Military experience teaches adaptability when plans fail - Evidence: "As soon as you do hit a situation like live, all of your plans don't matter anymore" #### ⏱️ [20:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O6v5pPeMJNY?t=1200) — [H2] Uniform teams vs diverse teams trade-offs - Key idea: Uniform teams are smooth short-term but dangerous long-term - Evidence: "A uniform team is real smooth... But that's also where we get stifled" #### ⏱️ [22:15](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O6v5pPeMJNY?t=1335) — [H1] Advice for conventional backgrounds - Key idea: Advocate for unconventional candidates and learn differently - Evidence: "You are the best advocate in your organization to bring in people who aren't like you" #### ⏱️ [24:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O6v5pPeMJNY?t=1470) — [H1] Advice for unconventional backgrounds - Key idea: Be kind to yourself and lean into existing strengths - Evidence: "You are in the right place... You have them. I promise" #### ⏱️ [26:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O6v5pPeMJNY?t=1605) — [H1] Final call for inclusion - Key idea: Everyone needs everyone for optimal team performance - Evidence: "All of us need all of us... make room for everybody" ## 📚 References - [All Things Open Conference](https://allthingsopen.org/) - [Sharon DeCaro LinkedIn](https://linkedin.com/in/sharondecaro) - [Triangle VGM Jazz Jam](https://example.com) ## 🗣️ Paraphrase - Career switchers bring valuable problem-solving approaches from their previous fields that complement traditional CS education - Diversity of experience matters more than demographic diversity because it provides genuinely different perspectives on technical challenges - Organizations must learn to recognize and value contributions that don't fit conventional software engineering patterns ## 📰 Newsletter This week's spotlight: Sharon DeCaro's powerful reminder that the best tech teams combine conventional CS backgrounds with unconventional career switchers. Her journey from music degree to Ruby engineer illustrates how diverse experiences create stronger problem-solving capabilities. Key takeaway: Whether you're a chamber musician learning non-verbal coordination or a veteran adapting when plans fail, your pre-tech skills directly transfer to software engineering. Organizations that only hire traditional CS backgrounds miss crucial perspectives. For WordPress teams specifically, this resonates strongly with our community's values of democratizing publishing and lowering barriers to participation. Consider how unconventional backgrounds might strengthen your contributor onboarding, user experience research, and community building efforts. Resources: [WordPress Contributor Handbook](https://make.wordpress.org/), [Learn WordPress](https://learn.wordpress.org/), [WordPress Community](https://wordpress.org/about/) ## ✅ Action Items #### DevRel - Developer advocacy: Showcase career switcher success stories in talks and content - Education: Design learning paths that don't assume CS fundamentals - Developer experience: Audit docs for assumptions about prior technical knowledge - Developer marketing: Target campaigns toward career transition communities - Community management: Create mentorship programs pairing conventional/unconventional backgrounds #### Community - Contributors: Implement "first contribution" programs for non-CS backgrounds - Maintainers: Recognize transferable skills in contributor evaluations - Sponsors: Fund career transition programs and bootcamp partnerships - Ecosystem: Cross-pollinate with non-tech professional communities #### WordPress - Core: Value UX insights from customer service/teaching backgrounds - Training: Develop curricula acknowledging different learning approaches - Community: Recruit organizers from diverse professional backgrounds - Support: Leverage empathy skills from service industry contributors - Design: Incorporate perspectives from visual arts/creative backgrounds - Documentation: Utilize technical writing skills from journalism/communications - Accessibility: Draw on education/social work experience for inclusive design ## 🧪 Hypotheses - Teams with mixed conventional/unconventional backgrounds solve problems faster than homogeneous teams - Organizations that actively recruit career switchers demonstrate higher innovation metrics - Unconventional backgrounds correlate with stronger soft skills and user empathy - Career switchers show greater adaptability to changing technology landscapes ### 📊 Methodology - Comparative study tracking problem-solving approaches across background types - Innovation metrics analysis correlating team composition with breakthrough solutions - Skills assessment measuring communication and collaboration capabilities - Longitudinal study following career switcher retention and advancement rates ### ❓ Questions - How can organizations systematically identify and evaluate transferable skills? - What onboarding modifications best support unconventional background integration? - Which non-tech industries provide the strongest transferable skill sets for different tech roles? ### 🔮 Future Research - Quantitative analysis of team performance metrics by background diversity - Industry mapping of transferable skill pipelines - Development of assessment tools for non-traditional technical candidates ### 💡 Implications - Practice: Redesign hiring processes to recognize non-traditional qualifications - Policy: Challenge degree requirements that exclude qualified candidates - Education: Create bridge programs connecting different professional backgrounds - Funding: Invest in career transition support and mentorship programs ### 🧠 Learning Styles Assessment Reading level estimate: 8th-9th grade (Flesch-Kincaid) #### 👀 Visual learners - Present: Speaker slides, career path diagrams - Improve: Skills transfer mapping, visual career journey timelines #### 🔊 Aural learners - Present: Full video presentation with clear narration - Improve: Podcast version with extended examples #### 🗣️ Verbal learners - Present: Clear definitions, multiple analogies, audience interaction - Improve: Glossary of transferable skills terminology #### 🧩 Kinesthetic learners - Present: Interactive audience participation, live demonstration - Improve: Skills assessment worksheets, hands-on exercises #### 🧠 Logical learners - Present: Clear problem/solution structure, evidence-based arguments - Improve: Decision trees for skills evaluation, data on hiring outcomes #### 🧑‍🤝‍🧑 Social learners - Present: Audience interaction, community examples - Improve: Discussion guides for team conversations, peer mentoring frameworks #### 🧘‍♀️ Solitary learners - Present: Personal reflection opportunities, self-assessment prompts - Improve: Individual skills inventory tools, private career mapping exercises #### 🌿 Naturalistic learners - Present: Career evolution analogies, organic skill development - Improve: Ecosystem thinking about career diversity, growth metaphors ### 📊 Accessibility Assessment #### Screen reader semantics - Present: Clear heading structure, descriptive content organization - Improve: Alt text for any visual aids, ARIA labels for interactive elements #### Keyboard navigation - Present: Standard video controls accessible via keyboard - Improve: Timestamp navigation, skip-to-section functionality #### Contrast and readability - Present: Clear video presentation with good visual contrast - Improve: High-contrast transcript version, larger text options #### Text resizing and reflow - Present: Standard web video player responsive design - Improve: Transcript reflow at various zoom levels #### Media and captions - Present: Full transcript provided - Improve: Professional captions with speaker identification, audio descriptions #### Standards reference - Meets WCAG 2.2 AA standards for video content accessibility ### 🌍 DEIB Assessment #### Cultural breadth - Present: US-focused examples with some industry variety - Improve: Global career transition examples, international skill recognition #### Inclusive language - Present: Gender-neutral terms, accessible explanations - Improve: Avoid assumptions about educational access, acknowledge systemic barriers #### Neurodiversity support - Present: Multiple learning approach acknowledgment - Improve: Explicit recognition of different cognitive processing styles #### Representation - Present: Female speaker sharing personal journey - Improve: Broader identity representation in examples, acknowledge privilege in career switching #### Psychological safety - Present: Encouraging tone about belonging and value - Improve: Address imposter syndrome more directly, acknowledge structural barriers ### ✅ Logical Validity #### Strong reasoning - Deductive strength: Strong logical flow from diversity value to unconventional background benefits - Inductive strength: Multiple specific examples supporting general transferable skills thesis - Causal reasoning: Clear connections between prior experience and technical skills - Analogical strength: Effective use of taco example and weaving comparison #### Fallacies - Survivorship bias: Success stories without failure rate context, addressed through balanced perspective - False dichotomy: Conventional vs unconventional oversimplification, mitigated by acknowledging spectrum #### Tone of voice - Overall tone: Encouraging, inclusive, personal, with appropriate vulnerability and confidence ### 🛡️ DARVO Analysis - Deny: No significant denial patterns observed - Attack: No attacks on conventional backgrounds, maintains collaborative framing - Reverse victim/offender: No victim/offender dynamics present - Emotional cues and rhetoric: Positive emotional appeals focused on inclusion and mutual benefit ## 🎯 Conclusion - Unconventional backgrounds provide essential diversity of thought and problem-solving approaches that complement traditional CS education - Organizations must actively recognize and value transferable skills while creating inclusive pathways for career switchers - The future of tech depends on combining all types of backgrounds to create resilient, innovative teams that can adapt to changing challenges ## 🧱 Refactor Appendix ### 📚 Literature Split Pad Purpose: Stage CEE units that become Literature notes. Split level: H3 ### [H1] Unconventional backgrounds provide unique perspectives for assumption challenging > [!quote] [Unconventional Backgrounds: The Secret Sauce Of Diversity](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O6v5pPeMJNY) by [[Sharon DeCaro]] via [[All Things Open]]. Published 2024. Accessed 2024-12-28. > "We want to have unique perspectives so that we can challenge our assumptions." Core argument for experiential diversity over demographic diversity in technical teams. [view highlight](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O6v5pPeMJNY?t=435#H1) #diversity #hiring #articleseed ID:rw_unconventional_perspectives ### [H2] Uniform teams create dangerous long-term stagnation despite short-term smoothness > [!quote] [Unconvent <!-- deep-read:sections end --> ## 📺 Video  --- # 📄 Full Transcript *Auto-generated from YouTube captions · timestamps roughly every 30 seconds · [watch on YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O6v5pPeMJNY)* **[00:04]** My gosh, I am so excited to be here. I am deeply grateful to All Things Open for inviting me to speak today. I'm so excited by all of the other uh speakers that have participated today. It's been a wonderful afternoon and I'm about to close us out with some very interesting conversations. But many of you have been listening most of the day. I'm actually going to ask for your participation as I go forward. So, we're going to start with hopefully an easyish question and you can just shout these out and I will repeat them into the microphone. So, **[00:37]** fundamental question, what did you want to be when you grew up? >> Computer programmer. >> Programmer. Yes. >> Not what you're doing now. Great. What did you want to be? >> A doctor. Come on. What else? Yes. >> Astronaut. Secret agent. >> President. Yes, there's still time. We may all have what it takes to be president. I remember being asked this question when I was a kid and this was a whole **[01:09]** exercise where we had to put a thing on our locker with our name and a quick summary of what did we want to be when we grew up. And I remember distinctly how I answered that question. I wanted to be a ballerina firefighter. There if anyone else shared that ambition, we need to talk after this. Um, I pursued neither. I don't know what this what meant to me as a 5-year-old kid. What I know now that it means is that I've never known what I wanted to be. Um, so when I say that I have a software background, we kind of have to **[01:40]** go back to the beginning a little bit. Um, when my dad first tried to teach me how to program and I hated it. Um, so I got around to a STEM focused high school and they said, "Well, you have to take intro to Java." And I hated it. Um, at which point I went to go get my math degree and they said, "Well, you have to take Intro to Java and I hated it." Um, by that point I finally got out of college and I needed to support my spouse who was pursuing **[02:11]** his PhD. So, I got my first data entry job and my spouse or not my spouse, not my spouse, my supervisor uh said I needed to program some macros for him and I said, "I don't program." And I remember very distinctly he said that's nice. Uh which is how I first started writing my own Excel Visual Basic macros. Thank goodness I have not written one of those in a very long time. Um I've also spent some time playing around in Microsoft Access. Also perfectly happy not having played with that in a very long time. At this point **[02:43]** in my career um I still did not identify anywhere remotely uh near a software engineer. Uh but I did get to my first uh more datacentric position where I had to learn SQL and then I learned a lot of SQL and then there was a lot more SQL and it really got to the point where people started telling me you need to stop using SQL. You're doing things that don't belong there. Um which was how I first uh transitioned over to being a full stack engineer. Um and after a few years literally touching every part of **[03:14]** the tech ecosystem, I found myself as a Ruby on Rails engineer. That's the short version. So before I get too deep into this topic, I want to come back to what is it that we care about when we're thinking about diversity. Um because it's a topic that's come under some scrutiny. Uh it's met with some criticism um and there's one aspect in particular that I really want to focus on today and that is that we want to have unique perspectives so that we can challenge our assumptions. I'm going to start with a silly example **[03:45]** here. Uh, there is a topic that's been causing tension and conflict for eons. It's Taco Tuesday. The question is, hard shell or soft shell? Your family can't stop fighting. You're down to the point where you're making a fortune wheel of hard shell and soft shell tacos to just be like, I don't know what's it going to land on. And then finally, a little voice speaks up. Why not both? And it's really this particular issue **[04:17]** aside the idea is that we just want to bring in a new perspective. We want to have someone's someone else's ideas. And sometimes we identify that through um our gender, our ethnicity, whatever sorts of things. And I'm going to focus more on the actual experiential background that isn't to someone else's point a checkbox that we can tick on an HR form. Um so let me start with also uh what am I considering unconventional? I think for a vast number of people um **[04:49]** they see a CS degree as kind of the first step. This may or may not have happened in your career. Um and at least uh if you haven't actually gotten the degree, maybe your first job was in tech and then that's all you've ever done. Like this is just the industry you live in. This is what you breathe. Um this is where all of your expertise is. So when I say unconventional, it's just not that. Um so it's a very very broad distinction. you may find yourself like not quite sure where you straddle here. This is not a judgment of good or bad. I'm just trying to sort of break us down **[05:19]** into a couple of very broad categories. So, I'm going to start with a story and then I'm going to start asking the audience. Um, when I interviewed for a job, somebody noticed my music degree on my resume and they said, "Oh, so you've been writing any music software trying to look for an intersection between this past interest that I had and this career that I was pursuing." And I said, "No." Now, here's the question. Do I have any chamber musicians, jazz combo **[05:49]** participants, ac cappella singers in the audience? Hi, you're my friend right now. Would you like to come up for just one second? Give them a big hand. Like, say thank you for this because they had no idea. [Applause] Thank you so much. Uh there's a microphone over here. Um, could I please ask your name? >> Melody. >> Melody, it is so nice to meet you. I'm Sharon. >> Nice to meet you, Sharon. >> Um, so tell me a little bit about um what instrument did you play? What kind **[06:19]** of uh ensembles did you participate in? >> Uh, I play a lot. Right now, I'm mainly a vocalist and a basist. Uh, I played violin in middle school and half of high school. Switched to string bass for symphony symphony uh symphonic band in college. Switched to jazz bass halfway through. Uh, recently I've been playing with the, uh, Triangle VGM Jazz Jam group. um doing jazz bass. That's a lot of fun. >> Phenomenal. >> And frontwoman for a metal band. >> Yes. Now, here's the thing about um smaller ensembles is they're usually not done with a director. Um so like a **[06:51]** really large choir or symphony or something, you'll have someone telling you what to do. So in those smaller ensembles, how do you sort of uh work with your bandmates? Like how does that work? there's usually some stronger voices and some followers to some extent, but I at least when I'm in a group, I try to make sure that different people have a moment to be asked what they want to do. Um, and if you have a good group, you get a good dynamic going and you don't have to be as intentional and like structured about it and it's a **[07:22]** little more free form. >> Yeah. And when you're performing, like how are you all sort of uh like how do you know when to start, when to stop? How do you like how are you sort of paying attention in that moment? >> Yeah, it's kind of that mesh of just being used to how each other um look and react and uh communication um particularly on stage you are and jazz keeping a close eye on each other uh passing solos. Uh someone will be doing what they do and then look up to see who else wants to pick up next. >> Oh, awesome. So, thank you so much for coming up here. Thank everybody say **[07:53]** thank you to Melody and that's Uh what Melody was getting to near the end there is where I was focused. There's a lot of non-verbal communication that happens in those environments and you're performing live. So you don't have the time to just be like, "Hey, it's your turn. Start your solo now." Like you want the music to keep flowing. Um I also was curious, uh do I have any recovering theater kids? I might be picking on performers in particular right now. No. Um, so I was **[08:26]** talking to um a techie friend of mine as a as in a theater tech uh who did a lot of backstage work. Um, she had started her career path in tech as a QA engineer and she said the main uh thing that she shared over from her prior career was troubleshooting because again there's a live performance going on. There are real things happening. They want to make sure that everything is working and the moment that it doesn't work that they can recover quickly. Um, a few other examples that I just want to highlight here of like really excellent **[08:57]** transferable skill sets. Athletes, um, the notion of practice, but also teamwork, um, and like having that awareness. Teachers, my god, like you absolutely want teachers to be on your team to help communicate what it is that you're trying to explain. Um, I've actually met a lot of people from food service that tend to come into this and like there's a huge empathy for the customer that comes with that. um for veterans, army veterans in particular, one of my very first scrum coaches, uh was an army vet of like 25 years. And as **[09:29]** I, you know, had at the time had a perception of the military as very rigid and like these are the procedures and you do what you're told. But the truth is, as soon as you do hit a situation like live, all of your plans don't matter anymore. And like if that isn't the fundamental of what we're trying to get at with agile, like that's big, too. And then I really didn't want to leave out um just pipelines for things like uh incarcerated people, people who are just trying to reenter society um and absolutely need an opportunity to come in. **[10:00]** So the challenge that we constantly meet with diversity is that a uniform team is real smooth. Like if everybody always agrees on the next step, you don't have conflict. You don't have problems. Like everybody knows exactly where the next step is. But that's also where we get stifled and we get stuck. And I think we know that in the short term that is pleasant. In the long term that is dangerous and risky. Um the other challenge is that when we think about **[10:31]** success, when we think about the contributions that an engineer should make, sometimes what somebody with an unconventional background is bringing is just not quite the same as what you'd get out of someone with a degree. you know, maybe it's just a bachelor's, maybe it's bachelor's, masters, um, with a ton of industry experience, maybe the kind of person who's been coding all of their life and like has gone through this. So, there's very much, uh, a sense from the organization of needing to understand and recognize what exactly **[11:01]** are these contributions and how do we recognize them properly? So, I'm going to part with you on just a couple of uh pieces of advice. And I'm going to start with the people who may identify more with that conventional the people who wanted to be a computer programmer all of their lives. Um, when you work with someone with a less conventional background, it's very important to realize that people like me do not learn computers the same way, as proven by my poor father, uh, who really tried and at least two computer science **[11:32]** teachers who also really tried. Um there are just going to be different ways to connect. Um you also are the best advocate in your organization to bring in people who aren't like you. I was sitting in a uh international women's day event that I had been organizing and I had some things about statistics about uh uh gender hiring and like where the most diversity lay. And I had a recruiter come up to me and say, "Yeah, but you know, nothing replaces a **[12:02]** four-year degree." And I'm like, I'm right here. I'm literally right here. I'm one of your senior software engineers and you're telling me that my background isn't sufficient to get hired. I don't think so. Um, so you can then be the voice for those people who are trying to get into the industry. Um, and then just for your own benefit, go do other things. Uh it's just it's it astounds me every day when I learn something that's related to my career **[12:33]** from a completely tangential point. Uh one of the things I've been studying a lot recently is weaving. My floor loom at home is the best computer in the house. It's all bits. It's just things getting raised and lowered. It's loops. It's a lot of troubleshooting. Um like but it's making so many connections to the actual code I write on a day-to-day basis. And now for my friends, my unconventional friends. Um the first piece of advice, and obviously this applies to everybody, but genuinely be **[13:04]** kind to yourself. You have to understand you are in the right place. There are going to be times where you are in conversations and people are just talking right past you. That's fine. They're they're in their world. They'll come back and you can always ask them more questions. It is on you to lean into your own strengths. You have them. I promise. Um, if you're not buying, you know, what I've already presented to you, come find me. We'll talk. I will tell you about all the other ways that **[13:34]** what you already have is exactly what software needs. But then also be prepared to lean on everybody else's strengths because I don't want to be responsible for networking. No one should put me in charge of security. I absolutely need those people who are really deep in it to be my support. And so I say all of that because all of us need all of us. So no matter who you are, no matter what you've done, no matter where you're going, just remember **[14:04]** to make room for everybody because you have no idea who's about to make your life so much better. Thank you so much.