Unnamed video 🔗 **Source:** [Unnamed video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kTJicvZUgY) > [!note]+ Document Notes > tags: [WordPress, Pricing, Agencies] > author: [MISSING] > source: YouTube > reference: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kTJicvZUgY] > date created: > > # 🏷️ Title: How to Add Value-Based Pricing to Your WordPress Agency > <!-- deep-read:sections start --> ## 🧰 Action Inbox - [H1] Draft value-based pitch script — context/YouTube at 0:23. - [H2] Add “committee tax” line item to estimates — context/YouTube at 2:15. - [H3] Write migration playbook with daytime cutover steps — context/YouTube at 6:27. - [H4] Define “fractional CTO” offer and pricing — context/YouTube at 8:21. #articleseed - [H5] Audit contracts for scope creep controls — context/YouTube at 14:22. #xref - [H6] Launch local starter-site + MRR bundle — context/YouTube at 17:46. #articleseed - [H7] Set annual rate uplift policy and targets — context/YouTube at 27:49. #addendum - [H8] Gate paid discovery with short intake audit — context/YouTube at 34:48. #articleseed - [H9] Reframe sales to benefits, not tools — context/YouTube at 37:55. #xref - [H10] Schedule customer check-ins and reminders — context/YouTube at 42:44. #share - [H11] Prepare client DNS/hosting ownership checklist — context/YouTube at 44:21. #share - [H12] Cite 4-day week evidence for ops experiments — Autonomy/4 Day Week links. ## 🧭 Table of Contents - [📝 Summary](#-summary) - [📖 Main Content](#-main-content) - [🗒️ Notes](#️-notes) - [📚 References](#-references) - [🗣️ Paraphrase](#️-paraphrase) - [📰 Newsletter](#-newsletter) - [✅ Action Items](#-action-items) - [🧪 Hypotheses](#-hypotheses) - [📊 Methodology](#-methodology) - [❓ Questions](#-questions) - [🔮 Future Research](#-future-research) - [💡 Implications](#-implications) - [🧠 Learning Styles Assessment](#-learning-styles-assessment) - [📊 Accessibility Assessment](#-accessibility-assessment) - [🌍 DEIB Assessment](#-deib-assessment) - [✅ Logical Validity](#-logical-validity) - [🛡️ DARVO Analysis](#-darvo-analysis) - [🎯 Conclusion](#-conclusion) ### 🔗 References - Include links cited in or relevant to the article. ## 📝 Summary - Two agency owners debate value-based pricing and scope control. - They argue confidence and positioning shape perceived value. - Stakeholders include agencies, clients, and local businesses. - Risks include scope creep, pricing whiplash, and bad fit clients. - Bottom line: sell outcomes, gate discovery, and raise rates deliberately. ## 📖 Main Content - Value pricing centers the client’s outcome, not hours. Anchor price to impact. Use benefits language, not tools. - Add a “committee tax” when many decision-makers exist. Expect extra meetings and revisions. - Consider a fractional CTO offer for strategic clients. This reframes the relationship and supports higher fees. - Build a stable MRR base with simple starter sites. Confidence grows when fixed costs are covered. - Use research when changing work patterns. UK four-day week pilots report strong outcomes for firms. See Autonomy’s report and 4 Day Week Foundation summaries (study links below). - Charge for discovery to signal expertise. Offer a quick intake check before paid audits. - Apply an annual rate policy. Aim to lose ~5% of misfit clients while raising margins. - Avoid tool talk in sales. Focus on problems, features, and measurable outcomes. ### 🗒️ Notes #### ⏱️ [00:23](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kTJicvZUgY&t=23) Pricing uncertainty in bespoke work ### [H1] Agencies face pricing uncertainty on bespoke work > [!quote] [How to Add Value-Based Pricing to Your WordPress Agency](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kTJicvZUgY) by an unnamed author via [[YouTube]]. Published [MISSING]. Accessed . > “Every contract is unique and different.” Short projects swing widely in effort. Triaging value reduces guesswork. [view highlight](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kTJicvZUgY&t=23) #xref ID:rw_[MISSING] #### ⏱️ [02:15](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kTJicvZUgY&t=135) Factor decision by committee ### [H2] Decision-by-committee inflates timeline and cost > [!quote] > “If it's a decision by committee project I factor in a considerable amount of time…” Estimate meetings and revisions up front. Price the coordination load. [view highlight](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kTJicvZUgY&t=135) #xref ID:rw_[MISSING] #### ⏱️ [06:27](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kTJicvZUgY&t=387) Confident decisions win backing ### [H3] Confident leadership supports nonstandard deployment windows > [!quote] > “The CEO backed me 100%… this is the right way to do it.” Confidence reduces risk perceptions and supports premiums. [view highlight](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kTJicvZUgY&t=387) #articleseed ID:rw_[MISSING] #### ⏱️ [08:21](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kTJicvZUgY&t=501) Shift from vendor to advisor ### [H4] Fractional CTO framing enables higher pricing > [!quote] > “I could but I don't want to do that. I want to be your CTO.” Sell stewardship, not just builds. Price ongoing decisions. [view highlight](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kTJicvZUgY&t=501) #articleseed ID:rw_[MISSING] #### ⏱️ [14:22](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kTJicvZUgY&t=862) Scope discipline ### [H5] Over-delivery erodes margins despite big contracts > [!quote] > “We overd delivered on that contract by probably 300%.” Control scope. Tie changes to impact and price. [view highlight](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kTJicvZUgY&t=862) #xref ID:rw_[MISSING] #### ⏱️ [17:46](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kTJicvZUgY&t=1066) Seed MRR locally ### [H6] Starter sites plus maintenance create stable MRR base > [!quote] > “I won't charge… as long as you pay for the hosting and maintenance.” Use simple sites to fund fixed costs and upsell later. [view highlight](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kTJicvZUgY&t=1066) #articleseed ID:rw_[MISSING] #### ⏱️ [27:49](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kTJicvZUgY&t=1669) Annual pricing policy ### [H7] Raise prices yearly and accept churn of 5% > [!quote] > “Raise your price every year until 5% leave.” Align demand with capacity. Improve mix and margins. [view highlight](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kTJicvZUgY&t=1669) #addendum ID:rw_[MISSING] #### ⏱️ [34:48](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kTJicvZUgY&t=2088) Gate expertise ### [H8] Charge for discovery after a brief intake check > [!quote] > “You could get paid for discovery.” Use paid audits to frame value and reduce tire-kicking. [view highlight](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kTJicvZUgY&t=2088) #articleseed ID:rw_[MISSING] #### ⏱️ [37:55](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kTJicvZUgY&t=2275) Sell benefits ### [H9] Lead with outcomes, not stack or tools > [!quote] > “People buying a house don't care where the bricks come from.” Map features to pains. Skip tool minutiae in sales. [view highlight](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kTJicvZUgY&t=2275) #xref ID:rw_[MISSING] #### ⏱️ [42:44](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kTJicvZUgY&t=2564) Retention rhythm ### [H10] Nurture clients with simple reminders and check-ins > [!quote] > “You got to be around really, too, because they'll forget…” Schedule touchpoints. Share wins. Offer small upgrades. [view highlight](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kTJicvZUgY&t=2564) #share ID:rw_[MISSING] #### ⏱️ [44:21](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kTJicvZUgY&t=2661) Ownership basics ### [H11] Clients often lack DNS and hosting details > [!quote] > “They have no idea where it's registered.” Provide ownership checklists and contact consolidation. [view highlight](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kTJicvZUgY&t=2661) #share ID:rw_[MISSING] ## 📚 References - UK 4-day week pilot results — Autonomy report (PDF): https://autonomy.work/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/The-results-are-in-The-UKs-four-day-week-pilot.pdf - 4 Day Week Foundation results page: https://www.4dayweek.com/uk-pilot-results - LifterLMS Office Hours Mastermind: https://lifterlms.com/product/office-hours/ - Accessing LifterLMS Office Hours: https://lifterlms.com/docs/accessing-lifterlms-office-hours/ ## 🗣️ Paraphrase - The speakers advocate pricing on client value, not labor hours. They factor coordination load and position themselves as strategic partners. - They build recurring revenue with simple sites and maintenance. They raise prices annually and charge for discovery to filter fit. ## 📰 Newsletter - Value pricing takes the stage this week. Anchor estimates to outcomes, not hours. Lead with benefits, not tool stacks. - Try a fractional CTO offer for select clients. Pair it with a crisp discovery package and clear scope controls. - Build confidence with a stable MRR base. Starter sites plus maintenance can cover monthly costs. - Curious about working patterns? See the UK four-day week results for evidence-driven experiments (Autonomy; 4 Day Week Foundation). ## ✅ Action Items #### DevRel - Publish a value-pricing demo repo and notes. - Record a “committee tax” estimation walkthrough. - Add DX examples showing benefits-first copy. #### OSPO - Draft contribution value rubric and pricing guardrails. - Document an intake-to-discovery SOP with approvals. - Align license and discovery templates with legal. #### Community - Run a meetup workshop on paid discovery. - Share a client-ownership checklist for DNS and hosting. #### WordPress - Package a starter-site kit with onboarding notes. - Add a maintenance plan template with upgrade paths. - Propose a Playground lab for discovery rehearsals. #### The WPOCC - Pilot microgrants for maintainers documenting discovery. - Publish governance clinic notes on scope hygiene. ### FAIR - Ship a pricing covenant template with anti-capture clauses. - Add provenance and signing steps to discovery outputs. ## 🧪 Hypotheses - Paid discovery improves close rates and reduces scope creep. - Fractional CTO framing increases average contract value. - Annual price uplifts improve margins without harming retention. ### 📊 Methodology - Run A/B across inbound leads: free consult vs paid discovery. - Track conversion, NPS, change orders, and gross margin. - Compare cohort ACV before and after fractional CTO rollout. ### ❓ Questions - Which industries benefit most from committee pricing? - How do we quantify “confidence” as perceived value? ### 🔮 Future Research - Test four-day week within a WordPress agency context. Cite Autonomy and 4 Day Week Foundation data. ### 💡 Implications - Agencies that sell outcomes can charge more. Scope discipline then protects margin. ### 🧠 Learning Styles Assessment - Reading level estimate: Flesch-Kincaid Grade ≈ 9–10. #### 👀 Visual learners - Present: claim headers and callouts. - Improve: diagrams for pricing flows. #### 🔊 Aural learners - Present: video source. - Improve: a 3-minute audio recap. #### 🗣️ Verbal learners - Present: definitions and benefits framing. - Improve: glossary of pricing terms. #### 🧩 Kinesthetic learners - Present: step templates. - Improve: sandbox discovery checklist. #### 🧠 Logical learners - Present: hypotheses and KPIs. - Improve: decision trees for pricing. #### 🧑‍🤝‍🧑 Social learners - Present: mastermind references. - Improve: peer review of estimates. #### 🧘‍♀️ Solitary learners - Present: structured notes. - Improve: reflection prompts per claim. #### 🌿 Naturalistic learners - Present: sustainability nod via workweek research. - Improve: lifecycle cost models for hosting. ### 📊 Accessibility Assessment #### Screen reader semantics - Present: headings and callouts. - Improve: add alt text for diagrams. #### Keyboard navigation - Present: logical order. - Improve: skip links in templates. #### Contrast and readability - Present: high-contrast text. - Improve: verify 4.5:1 on embeds. #### Text resizing and reflow - Present: responsive markdown. - Improve: support reduced motion. #### Media and captions - Present: transcript provided. - Improve: downloadable captions. #### Forms and interactions - Present: step forms in discovery. - Improve: inline validation and clear errors. #### Standards reference - Map to WCAG 2.2 AA success criteria. ### 🌍 DEIB Assessment #### Cultural breadth - Present: local small business examples. - Improve: multi-region case studies. #### Inclusive language - Present: plain language. - Improve: define jargon consistently. #### Neurodiversity support - Present: chunked structure. - Improve: icon+text in decks. #### Representation - Present: varied roles implied. - Improve: balanced examples and imagery. #### Psychological safety - Present: respectful framing. - Improve: public guidelines and escalation paths. ### ✅ Logical Validity #### Strong reasoning - Inductive claim: annual uplifts improve mix ([H7]). Evidence aligns with pricing theory. - Causal claim: scope creep cuts margins ([H5]). Fits common service dynamics. - Framing effect: fractional CTO raises perceived value ([H4]). Coherent with positioning models. #### Fallacies - Survivorship bias risk when citing peers’ deal sizes. Mitigate with verified data. - Anecdotal evidence on MRR starter sites. Add controlled tracking. #### Tone of voice - Conversational, practical, and candid. Occasional humor softens critique. ### 🛡️ DARVO Analysis - No DARVO patterns appear. The dialogue debates pricing approaches without blame shifting. ## 🎯 Conclusion - Sell outcomes, not hours. Price coordination and confidence. - Gate discovery, raise rates yearly, and protect scope. - Build a stable MRR base, then chase strategic work. - Tag Coverage — #articleseed: 3 • #xref: 3 • #share: 2 • #bmf: 0 • #addendum: 1 ## 🧱 Refactor Appendix (append after 🎯 Conclusion) ### 📚 Literature Split Pad - Purpose: Stage Konik CEE units that become per-source Literature notes. - Split level: **H3**. - Include verbatim quotes under 25 words and a [view highlight] link. ### [H1] Agencies face pricing uncertainty on bespoke work > [!quote] [How to Add Value-Based Pricing to Your WordPress Agency](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kTJicvZUgY) by an unnamed author via [[YouTube]]. Published [MISSING]. Accessed . > “Every contract is unique and different.” Use value framing to reduce variance in estimates. [view highlight](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kTJicvZUgY&t=23) #xref #articleseed ID:rw_[MISSING] ### [H2] Decision-by-committee inflates timeline and cost > [!quote] [How to Add Value-Based Pricing to Your WordPress Agency](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kTJicvZUgY) > “I factor in a considerable amount of time…” Price coordination overhead explicitly. [view highlight](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kTJicvZUgY&t=135) #xref ID:rw_[MISSING] --- ### 🔖 Atomic Split Pad (Zettel Candidates) - Purpose: Promote reusable claims into Atomic notes. - Split level: **H4**. - Each item: one idea, present tense, specific, testable. #### [Z1] Fractional CTO framing increases perceived value - Offer advisory control and decisions. Track ACV delta. - Links: [[Value-Pricing]] [[Positioning]] #### [Z2] Paid discovery improves client fit and margin - Replace free consults with scoped audits. Measure close rate. - Links: [[Sales-Process]] [[Scope-Management]] --- ### ✏️ Fleeting Queue (Extract by Selection) - Purpose: Capture quick actions or sparks for Fleeting notes. - Extraction: **Select one line** → “Refactor: Extract selection to new note (content only).” - Keep each line short and self-contained. - [F1] Write a one-page discovery product — context/YouTube #fleeting #inbox - [F2] Draft “committee tax” explainer for proposals — context/YouTube #fleeting #inbox - [F3] Build starter-site operations checklist — context/YouTube #fleeting #inbox --- <!-- deep-read:sections end --> ## 📺 Video  --- # 📄 Full Transcript *Auto-generated from YouTube captions · timestamps roughly every 30 seconds · [watch on YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kTJicvZUgY)* **[00:00]** Well, folks, welcome to another episode of Whose WordPress Agency Is This Anyway? My name is Kurt Vonan. I am here with my incredible co-host uh and guest on the round table, Toby Crimes. Toby, how are you today? >> Doing great. Why don't I ask you something? >> Okay. Um, so I own a small agency here and I have to like guess at my pricing every time I write a contract. like I have the the free range to change **[00:31]** whatever I'm charging every single day. Like I don't have >> don't have an e-commerce site I need to worry about. Every contract is unique and different. Um how do I know that I'm pricing my services in a way that's as high as possible without scaring people away or undervaluing myself and also being fair? >> I think this is a very difficult question. Hugely difficult question. You know I know that memories are short. I know that a lot of people don't, you know, uh, hold things for a long time, but there was an argument between Robert **[01:03]** D'vor and Kevin Giri this year or last year that was like, Robert was like, you can build a website for $500. And Kevin Giri was like, if you're building websites for $500, you don't have clients. And of course, that argument expanded into a whole thing. It's a great question though because there are times where I am like, "Yeah, this is going to be 13 or$14,000 for the amount of work that this person wants." And then someone else might come along and I think to myself, it's almost **[01:34]** the same. It's almost the same amount of work, but for some reason I'm like, "Uh, it's an $8,000 project." And so it really gets you thinking like what is the difference between a 5,000 and 8,000 and a $13,000 project? Is it really just the perceived financial push back from the client that designates the cost of the project or is it something deeper than that? Um, you know, I I know that you and I have a difference of opinion on pricing things, **[02:04]** but for me, I I do keep a time record of every project and every um milestone within that project so that when I bid a job, I know basically how long it's going to take. But I also factor in things like, is this web project going to be decision by committee? Like is this a corporate thing where the marketing manager's got to get involved and the customer service guy has a say and you know uh some lady in the office who you know does accounts payable has **[02:36]** has a say in what what color the button is on the website. If it's a decision by committee project I factor in a considerable amount of time to that project and quote just based on the Zoom meetings or the conference calls that we're going to have to have. And so in a lot of cases, in a lot of cases, I think the fee of mñana nomas can really be driven to what is the expected energy that this client's going to require from us. And so yeah, I I charge people for **[03:08]** that and I charge them at the agency rate and it can inflate the project pretty quickly. >> There's this like um fra a couple frameworks. So you describe one framework. I've I've read books that describe another framework which is it's called the guy describes as value based fees but where the idea is like um it's a totally different way of selling projects effectively like like you're going in there the goal is to be the guy where the the CEO says hire Kurt I don't care what it costs just hire **[03:39]** Kurt >> and the idea is like if you can be Kurt in that phrase that you can charge substantially more for the same exact act deliverable. >> Yeah. It's so interesting to me though that the level of expertise really does to me help justify the um you know the outcome. So So to make things more clear, I I run the office hour mastermind for Lifter LMS. So once a week I'm on a Zoom call with a **[04:10]** consolidated group of people from all over the globe that use Lifter LMS and we all have So this is a great example because we're all using the same product. We all have the infinity version of Lifter LMS and then some people get on the call and they and we problem solve. They ask for solutions, right? And we're working on things. But some people ask me questions or pro let's say project questions to the group. That's a better way to describe a mastermind. They project questions to the group that quite **[04:42]** honestly just you would think if you're if you're someone that's making a living as an agency doing this for other people, those questions probably shouldn't even hit the the floor, but they do, right? And so being the expert in the room and having the confidence to portray solutions to a client has a certain value as well. like the level of confidence that we're able to exude and that we're able to present to our clients is pretty high. Uh and I know it's the same with you, right? And **[05:12]** so that would come with an expectation of a higher rate or a higher justified rate. Um I mean just just and and and I I probably shouldn't say it in this way. What would I say? So, if there was a a feature, a visible feature on a website that wasn't behaving dynamically as it as it should or as is expected, I don't think either you or I would turn off the whole website and put up a construction screen. But that's what some people do, right? **[05:44]** Like some people go, "Ah, something's not working right on the site. I'm just going to put it under construction. That'll give me time to figure it out." Mhm. >> It's like I don't know if turning off the whole website was the the move for that, you know, because what's the percentage of people looking at that website currently that would cause you to want to turn off the whole website? Like if two or 5% of the people concurrently logged into that website can't access this one little feature, why would you turn off the website to 100% of people that might see it? **[06:14]** >> Right? You know, that's those are the types of decisions that you see from people at the lower scale. And so when you get into that higher scale, there's a certain level of expertise and confidence that's assumed to be in the in that position. >> Yeah. I mean, I remember um there I was working with a big company. I mean, they were doing millions a month in sales and an e-commerce site that I was managing for them. And we were migrating platforms. We were migrating from WordPress to Shopify. And I we might have talked **[06:44]** about this on a previous episode, but like I recommended that we do it at 11:00 a.m. Central Standard Time Tuesday morning. And everybody >> everybody freaked out. The CEO backed me 100%. But like everyone else was freaking out cuz they're like, "That's not how we do it." And I'm like, >> "Uh, this is the right way to do it. Whether we agree on this or not, I'm I'm it's my call. The CEO's got my back and I still stand by it. I believe in it." Like just generally speaking, they're all like, "No, we need to do it at 2 am." And I'm like, "Okay, you know, **[07:15]** Friday." >> Yeah, exactly. Um there there's um I'm thinking about this valuebased thing verse uh agency. There's like different ways of showing up and you kind of described that a little bit like um there was a time where I showed up to a pitch with a nothing. They they had asked for like hey can you build this website and I showed up my pitch was like I could but I don't want to do that. I want to be your CTO. Um, and I **[07:46]** showed up and the cost was six times what it would have cost to have me build the site, the cost to be their part-time CTO. Um, and at the end of the day, they went with that and I was like thrilled to do the work. Like it was a fun engagement and um, ended up being two days a week of my time versus like, hey, I'm just going to build this and then I'll be out of your hair, you know? Um, but the way you show up and sell that is different than the way you would sell, hey, we're **[08:17]** going to do this work. And in the sense that like I had to do a lot more homework up front. I had to think through options differently. And um, and I also think that sort of pitch that like, hey, let me be your CTO is more conducive to like a solo consultantish thing like whatever you're So you have like choices here as a business owner. um like even delivering the exact same stuff like uh how do you want to show up? Do you want to be an expert? Like your business is you as this expert **[08:48]** consultant or you're an agency, you have the team that does all the work, you know? Um, and I for me like like you got to get clear on that like at minimum when you're showing because when you show up to that sales call like >> yeah it's you nailed it you nailed something on the head right there that that CTO perspective is um that is really annoying. Uh that CTO perspective is like you have access to me. I'm doing this. I am in control. I and so there's **[09:19]** a value that's added to that that that to your point you know you was a 6x but you know that that's a great example of what if I needed to 10x my business right it's like I'm going to 10x it because I'm going to give you direct access to me I make the decisions I do I do I do as opposed to well someone on the team will take care of that right um I am very very direct with people that when they work with mñana nas I might be the face and the voice of mñana nas But in many cases, there's someone else **[09:49]** on the team that's executing, you know, the actual task, right? And what's funny is they go, "Well, can I just talk to them direct?" No, you can't. We're not doing that game. You know, they I pay them to execute tasks. And the reason that I can pay them what I pay them is because they don't have the burden of dealing with customers. >> Yeah. >> That's my burden. And I take it wholeheartedly and I'll do it. >> Yeah. And I love this question of and My original question is how if you had to 10x your biz in one year. So you're **[10:21]** using time as a lever to like frame everything up or times the frame one year. How does that change what you're doing? And it I I like the exercise. Like I think it's kind of a silly there's all these books. There's a book I read that was talking about that and I'm like I I don't think it's good to go all in on these extreme things. We talked about the 4-hour work week. I'm not advocating going all in, but >> yeah, >> there's like principles in there in the gist of the the using time as the lever. You go, what am I doing that's like **[10:52]** >> not of high value to my customers or to the business? And um if you do that, you know, for me, let's say um well, for one, I'm thinking of it like I what I'm realizing is like I need to not be a blocker on web development for my team. Right now I'm a blocker on certain aspects because I also serve as CTO effectively. I need a CTO or I need to change our processes to get me out of that flow. Um I also like shouldn't be a **[11:24]** blocker on like just like Toby should like people still come to me like Toby should we um how should we approach this tech challenge? And I'm like we have a guy on our team who's really good at this. Like why am I in this conversation? Like >> um >> if you think about that, like I think we talked about this a week or two ago, but it's like this is a really good question for any definitely any webdev biz. Um and like the idea is like like let's say like the thing that would really push **[11:56]** your business forward is more sales. Let's say let's say you need more sales, you need more money. Then you go like, well, how can I get more money? Like and you can take that wherever you want. You could look at look at your product offering. You could look at the type of customers you're getting because you could get >> a lot more low paying customers and that's like a certain thing and or you can get a lot fewer and you know bank more on fewer customers. You could go deeper with existing clients. You could go upstream and get higher paying **[12:26]** client. You know, like there's all sorts of ways to tackle this. And I I just think like it's really neat. And like one one one thing we're running into that I shouldn't say we but because it's really me like I think I have to date and I've been in business 19 years failed to land I should say my contracts have all capped at a certain dollar level that >> is way below a lot of our peers in the business like in terms of like this my average contract is very low compared to people we know in business and that's **[12:58]** positive and negative. um >> peers in our business. Do you believe that they're really selling all of these high dollar jobs or do you think there's a certain amount of hyperbole and exaggeration in these anecdotes? >> Um I can I can guess just based on and I'm not necessarily talking people that you and I know in common, but like there's an agency in town here that I know the owner of and I I know the types of clients they have. I know he has 50 staff in Minneapolis in an office. Um, I **[13:29]** know this other one has 30 staff in Minneapolis in an office and I I know who their clients are. And so I don't know the exact numbers, but I know that they're getting way more than me, you know, >> per client because I know because the one guy says I have 30 clients and I have 30 staff and I'm like, okay, I can do a little bit of math and realize that you're making way more per client than I am, you know? >> Yeah. Yeah. It's it's so interesting to me that that you know we have this kind of conversation. Um and just being very **[14:00]** transparent. Uh I have some very low low dollar contracts and I have some that are pretty equitable. Uh we just finished up a project that was about $55,000 spread out over 18 months. And so you go, "Wow, 55 grand for one client over 18 months. That sounds pretty great." But I'm going to tell you, we overd delivered on that contract by probably 300%. Right? Because we got sucked into a bunch of nonsense, which I should have managed better. Um, and so it wasn't as **[14:32]** profitable as it sounds because we overd delivered on the scope of work, right? Um, I'm friends with somebody who, and I'm not going to name them, but I'm friends with somebody that told me in confidence, "Oh, yeah, I don't really entertain any contracts less than $35,000." But that same person just took a job because they couldn't find any work. Right? So, if you can't find no work at 35 grand a pop, maybe you should lower your expectations a little bit and start taking some $12,000 gigs. Um, but it's such a hard tight rope to walk, right? **[15:04]** It's a really hard time when you said how to 10x a business. I immediately went to time blocking my day, taking some more time to focus on sales. And to be honest, I wasn't even thinking about what type of sales. It was just sales in general because I think in my own personal experience, we we were just talking before the show, Toby. I mean, I I know way too many things about too many things that are happening outside of my business. I shouldn't I'm not saying I should promote being ignorant, **[15:35]** but I shouldn't know the details. Like, should I care if pregnant women take Tylenol this week? Like, that shouldn't even be on my on my radar. Uh, but unfortunately, it is, which means I've put too much brain space into out there instead of what could be in here. That's a great point because I believe based on my experience not being successful at 10xing my business that you need to be laser focused to experience that sort of growth. And I **[16:05]** think like for myself even let's say 2x even 1.5x you still got to be laser focused and you're going to change you're going to disrupt your business. is going to cause some pain. You know, just time, you know, you're just going to have headaches that you create that hopefully get you there. People are going to think this is a crazy story, but just last week, last Friday, um I like to cook. I love to cook. It's one of the things I like to do. I made a homemade pastrami and it was fantastic. Best chunk of meat I ever took off the grill. Um we had a **[16:36]** lot of it. We had a lot of it left and I noticed as as you slice pastrami thin, it seems to go a long way. And so now I got this giant chunk of meat, right? Um, and I was like, "Do I want to freeze it? Do I What do I want to do?" So, a local shop in town diagnosed my wife's car, and they knew I was going to fix it after they diagnosed it, but they diagnosed it anyway. And then I went to pay them for the diagnostics, and they said, "Oh, we don't charge for diagnostics." And I said, "That's a weird way to do business." And then, but it's kind of their lost leader, right? So, thinking about how that works. Um, so what did I do? I said, "I could buy **[17:07]** him a pizza, but anyone can buy a pizza." So, I made hot pastrami and Swiss sandwiches. took down a a thing of sauerkraut and some mustard and iced teas and chips. Went in, saw him, delivered a homemade lunch. I thought the guy was going to cry. It was amazing. And then I said, "I noticed you don't have an active website for your shop. That's crazy. How come you don't have a shop? How come you don't have a site?" And he said, "Well, we know how to fix cars. We don't know how to do the internet." I said, "Well, lucky for you, I got 20 years of car experience and I know how to make websites." I said, um, and this is going to sound crazy to some **[17:37]** people, but I want you to see the model, right? I said, "Hey, you diagnose cars. you don't charge for diagnostics. What if I made you, you know, an AI powered kind of starter website? I won't charge you for that as long as you pay for the hosting and maintenance. And so now they're signed up on a recurring revenue plan. And that's one of those low dollar, low margin things that you and I were talking about. >> Takes me next to nothing to to spool up an an AI derived WordPress site. Takes me next to no time to do that. And then **[18:08]** it turns into a recurring revenue model going forward that becomes part of my local reach. >> Right. And so in my mind, my goal is to have 10 local clients on recurring hosting by the end of the year. >> Yeah. And then you go um so the the challenge or the the you know it goes okay let's say you can do that. What do you need to change infrastructure? not tech infrastructure but probably you know how many salespeople do you need or how much time do you need to invest to **[18:38]** get a hundred rather than 10 you know that's kind of the fun exercise >> well it took me 14 hours to make that pastrami >> uhhuh a lot of pastrami I got to make a lot of pastrami um >> but but for me uh going through that exercise and having picked up three local accounts in the last six weeks for for us it's it's turned into we need more time going to the in-person networking events, more time at the Chamber of Commerce, more time pressing the flesh, shaking hands, letting people **[19:09]** know what we do, and then making that killer offer that's like, "Look, you just need a startup website. You don't need a fully developed bespoke custom thing. You just need a startup website and decent hosting and maintenance so you can focus on running your business and we'll focus on keeping your website up." And like that whole thing's been an easy sale and it's it's giving us that base. So in my mind, if if even though it's not huge money, if I have 10 people on this recurring revenue plan, it gives **[19:40]** me a base. And then, you know, I have those enterprise clients for the e-learning projects, I only need two of those a year and and we're rip roaring, right? But it's it's making sure you always get one or two of those a year to keep that going. >> Yeah. And I think though that like that idea, even 10 begs the question of how do I manage my time between marketing building building the business building the stuff building the business learning >> and you're talking about making a pretty significant investment of time for not a **[20:12]** lot of dollars and then you go >> not a lot of dollars >> yeah but it gives me a it gives me a confident base to work off of like I know that the I know that the monthly software and hosting expenses are covered with those local clients >> and so when I go out and sell the bigger jobs and and correct me if I'm wrong, maybe maybe I'm putting too much into this, but you you're really hyped on sales. I'm kind of hyped on sales. If you're going to run an agency, you got to be kind of hyped on sales. Um, if I have the confidence to not care whether I get **[20:42]** the gig or not, it seems to go in my direction much better, right? like like if you if there's desperation layered on top of you, whether it's in the email or the Zoom call or whatever, it seems like they read that desperation just like I don't it's hard to explain, but if I really don't care if I get the gig or not, I tend to get the gigs. >> It's a great point. And here I I kind of thought what where my mind went was this whole 10X question is a very American **[21:12]** question. Probably wouldn't be asked in almost every other country in the world. Like it's the whole like I'm the fishing analogy. We're like I'm gonna come and help you catch more fish so you can sit on the beach and relax. And he's like I'm already relaxing on the beach. >> Already relaxing on the beach. >> Yeah. If I was in Italy it would be like how could I get enough work so I could take that two-hour break in the middle of the day and walk and walk by the beach and have a glass of wine. >> Yeah. >> Um I I'm in a similar spot. Like I am not looking to work 14 hours a day. I **[21:43]** have strategically reduced my work hours. Um, and I've been focused on like riding my bike and my physical fitness and my health and all that stuff. Uh, in addition to running my business. And so for me, from a personal standpoint, running an agency is all the key for me is time blocking. Like when I get up in the morning, I have my quiet time. I get into my digital journal and I and I layer it out like what are my scheduled appointments for today? what blocks are available around it, which of those **[22:13]** blocks is going to be used for sales and promotion that day and then what what part of those blocks needs to be on productivity for the day. But I literally have to time block that out because I have a little bit of an add tendency. Whereas if I don't time block it and I don't have it written down, I'll just I'll just take like surfing X and responding to people on X and thinking that's my marketing effort for the day. It could it could suck up a whole day if I'm not careful. >> Yeah. And I think like part of um it's interesting that you're there because I **[22:43]** think the the American condition is to always fear losing everything >> in the business community. >> And like that >> I think like we could all benefit from like just relaxing a bit. Like like you're probably going to be all right, you know? Like you got to show up every day and do the things, but like maybe we won't make a million dollars. Maybe we'll make enough to pay the mortgage. You know, like I I actually think and I'm not there. This is not like, you **[23:14]** know, it's hard for me to not be scared of losing everything tomorrow. Even though like I probably won't, but like I live with a constant fear and I I really think like I would benefit from just being like it'll be okay. Like we'll figure it out. Well, um, you know, at the risk of putting something in the podcast that that maybe they don't want in the podcast, I'm a person of faith and I and I've just learned over the decades that every day that I wake up is is another day that I've conquered everything that's come against me. And **[23:45]** in the end, I believe he's always it always works out. It always works out in the end. Doesn't matter. Uh, as long as I put in the effort, right? I recognize the gifts I've been given. I recognize the talents I have been afforded. and I have a responsibility to use those and leverage those but in the end it always works out anyway and and so um yeah there's a certain I don't know maturity that came with age. I am older than you. So maybe there's a certain maturity that came with age where I realized that like working my fingers to the bone in 14 16 hours a day didn't get me much further **[24:17]** ahead than if I did eight hours a day, >> you know. And then you look at those studies from Europe about the 4day work weeks and you know they they did studies in the in the German automaker, you know, uh factories and they said, well, if we work people for 12 hours a day, we get this much production. If we work people four days a week, we get this much production. If we work people for three days a week with this many hours, we get this much production. they've done all that stuff in other countries. And um and it turns out like sometimes the less you work, the more productive you are. >> For me, if I'm in the middle of a day, **[24:48]** and this is the cool part of be about being self-employed and running your own agency. If I'm in the middle of the day and I catch myself with like writer's block or just staring at the computer, hands on the keyboard, and being like, "What the hell was I doing?" Like, if that happens to me, I just I I turn it off. I go for an hour and a half bike ride. I log 10 or 15 miles. I come back and the rest of my day is like butter. It's like amazing how that physical activity just resets the brain for me. >> Yeah. I also there there's something to be said for um there's this mentality **[25:20]** that that we get from our upbringing or like just like our early jobs or whatever. Like it's really a cultural thing where like uh there's this idea that all work hours are created equal. >> No. Um, I've kind of learned similar to what you're saying and I actually think like and I think there there are times I'm sitting here working and I'm like I notice I'm like why am I I if I didn't do this it'd be fine. Like and it and it **[25:53]** might mean that I'm leaving a teammate hanging, but the thing I'm working on doesn't even matter much to them either like >> or they'll figure it out. They really don't need me. And um and so like I I often think I'd be better off like just not delivering this thing. And I'm not saying if it's important you got to deliver it. But that's what I'm saying. You got to deliver the important stuff. But a this is that 10x thing. A lot of what I'm doing in a day and I believe this no matter what I'm doing some percentage is totally not needed. **[26:24]** Totally not needed. Um I have a certain client that I work with that wants to have meetings all the time. And um and it's an ongoing thing. It's not like it's a project that's going to end on Tuesday, right? It's like an ongoing thing. And more and more and more it's like, "Oh, can we meet on can we meet in an hour? Can we meet in 20 minutes? Can I stop by?" And and um it's like, "Wait a minute. Hold on. Hold on. I got to start saying no. Like I can't just be available all the time." You know? Uh cuz I'm like, "What are we meeting for? This doesn't even **[26:55]** make any sense. This didn't need to be a meeting." And that's, you know, if you're a fan of Elon Musk, you'll know that he he's like, you can excuse yourself from a meeting. If you're in a meeting and it doesn't pertain to you, just get up and leave. You got other things to do. Um that's kind of a mindset where I'm like, no. Yeah. We got to we got to restrict ourselves from this getting sucked in all the time. >> Yeah. >> Uh and and do the work. The the thing that I find so when you said all work hours are not created equal. When I was young, I was I was a born and bred **[27:27]** workaholic. At one point, I had three jobs. And I rode to each of those three jobs by bicycle. And they weren't like next door to each other. They were far. They were like across town. And so I would work and then bicycle to another job, then bicycle to another job. And I was doing this like non-stop. I was really good at making money, really bad at saving money. So I just kept thinking if I just worked more, I could buy more things, you know? Um, and it was not a healthy way to go. Uh, again, I think age has provided a little maturity and **[27:58]** I'm able to say, hey, like I was talking about with the type of work sold, if I can create that good solid base where I know that the business's expenses are covered every month. I just know that they're covered every month. Well, then it gives me the freedom to concentrate and go after those bigger high ticket jobs, not really care if I get them or not, but if I do get it, what a windfall, right? And then that's kind of what we build off of. >> Yeah. I think of like >> Oh, sorry. Go ahead. >> So, that leads us to our our next note. And our next note was how do you decide **[28:30]** how to price out 5% of your clients every every >> Yeah. And so the goal here with that is to um get rid of your worst clients. And the funny thing about that um there's an assumption in the 5% price price raise your price 5% every year and I'm sorry raise your price every year until 5% leave. you want to raise it enough that you lose 5%. Because the idea is um let's **[29:02]** say just the math is like let's say you have 10 clients and you lose what's 5% is that two or I forget but um whatever 5% of 10 is 1.5 or something.5 let's say have 20 and then it's one yeah you have 20 clients >> you want to raise your price so you lose one of them. Um, and the idea is you've actually made more money. You've gotten rid of a lowpaying one. And generally in our biz, lowpaying ones are uh more demanding in many ways um and less **[29:35]** grateful maybe, you know, like um and if you can do that year over year, the idea is and it also frees up time. Now you're not investing a bunch of time in this person who's really demanding. And I really like I haven't tried it, but I like it as like a theory like um and I'm I know there's people who swear by it and it's like one of those like fringe theories, but I like the the idea. And you know, a couple years back I did raise my rates um by a little over 5% across the board for everyone. And I **[30:06]** didn't lose a single customer. And so, you know, it makes me wonder how high could I have gone and and you know, at some point or maybe I should raise them this year. You know, I didn't I didn't raise them the next year, but I'm I'm actually wondering like what if it was just my policy to raise prices 5% every year or 10, whatever that percent is. And um I don't know. I think it really depends on the stage of business that your agency is in. In one of our most earliest episodes, I disclosed that at **[30:38]** one point in time, I literally made a list of my clients, struck off the bottom 30% and fired them. I didn't price them out, so they quit. I fired them. I I sent them actively sent them an email that said, um, you know, our business is expanding. We are unable to actively service your account. Uh, but here are three or four other local sources that might be able to, you know, take you on. So, it was weird. My peers in the space thought I was great because I was giving away, you know, referrals, right? And the people still got someone taking care of their accounts. That was **[31:10]** great. But it freed me up like to get rid of 30% of dead weight in my client listing. It enabled me to, now this is different because I was in a different stage of agency life. I literally doubled the cost of my services and then went out and got, you know, five or 10% more clients. The next year I cut 30%. Redoubled my pricing and so every time I redoubled my pricing I brought in uh considerable amount of revenue. We literally doubled and tripled our business every year. 2008, 2009, 2010. **[31:43]** So by 2010 we were pretty sustainable as as a small oneperson agency. We were we were doing pretty good. Um, and then eventually we got Ducatti as our number one client and then that that just almost dwarfed everyone else that was on the list, you know. Um, so I I really don't have a problem with getting rid of like you say, should we aim to price out 5% of our clients every year? If you're in the early stages of agency development, I say you need to be more aggressive than that if you want to **[32:14]** substantially grow your business. But once you're established, once you have 35, 40, 50 clients and you're at an agency rate of let's just throw a number on it, 30 to $160 an hour that you build. I I think at that stage, um, incrementally increasing your rate so that you price out the bottom one or two clients is not a bad deal. I also think like our original question today was, you know, how do you know if you're undervaluing yourself? This is one way to determine that. **[32:45]** >> Yeah. >> You know, yeah, >> if you can get squee, you know, and maybe there's there's people that disagree with me uh that I know in my community that say like, "No, that's not what it's about." But like it's one if if dollar value is like one way to value yourself and that's the metric you're using like um this is one way to figure it out like um well with direct results too. I mean you could it it's like you don't have to wonder, right? Oh, I raised my prices. cuz I lost somebody, but I still kept 90% of them. Great. **[33:16]** Let's just keep moving, right? And there is nothing wrong with giving yourself a little bit of a raise. >> Yeah. >> You know, everything's gone up, right? I I look at the rate of inflation and the rate of this and the rate of that. And there's certain things that just stayed the same. >> You know, I took my diesel in to get an oil change at one of those oil change shops. And this was like the wake up for me. I went in there and I see I just want an oil change, blah blah blah. And the guy and he goes, "Yeah, this is going to be about $218 today right now. Oh, you need an air filter. Now we're at $260 bucks." And I used to be in the car **[33:48]** business and I remember oil change 1995. Oil change $39.95. How in the world did we get to $260 for an oil change >> at a quick lube place? Yeah. >> And I was like, you know what? >> Everything's gone up. There is no reason why I can't raise my prices. I was at the farmers market and somebody was selling beef at the farmers market for $19 a pound. And I'm like, if they're getting $19 a pound for hamburger, I can raise my prices. Speaking of raising your prices, one thing that a **[34:19]** lot of people aren't doing, including I I always go back on this and then I come back and I'm like, gosh, I'm an idiot. Um, and it's like this idea that like, and I got to give Matt Maderos credit for um raising this as an issue. Um, but like you should get paid for Oh, here's a question. It's not even a question. It's like you could you could get paid for discovery. >> You could get paid for discovery. >> And that it goes to valuing your your work, too. Like like there's something you communicate, good or bad, or maybe you lose. You know, you could win the **[34:50]** work, you could lose the work, but like there's something you communicate when you demand payment for your discovery. Yeah. And this this is a weird one. I actually struggle with this. I do because I have a thing where people can reserve 30 minutes of my time through a link, right? Hey, book a time with me through mñana no give you I'll give you 30 minutes. And part of me wonders, should I even be doing that? Should I be giving people 30 minutes for free because they call me up and they ask me a ton of questions. Some I get some people that are like, "Hey, I know that **[35:20]** your time's valuable. I only got 30 minutes. I wrote out a list of questions." And what they're really looking for is how much free consulting can they suck out of Kurt, right? at it >> to a certain extent I go along with that plan cuz I'm just like whatever. Uh maybe they'll refer me to someone that actually has a checking account that can pay a bill. Um but normally what happens is I'll say you need to create some temporary admin credentials so I can take a look at the back end of your website myself and see what we're getting into. if if I see **[35:51]** anything in there that is alarming or looks like something, then we're probably going to need to go to the next step, which is paid discovery and actually do a real audit of your of your project. Um, there's a reason why I do that, and I don't know if this is healthy or not. Maybe maybe you have an opinion. Maybe the listeners have an opinion. Um, if I sign into their website and they got two or three caching tools and four form tools and two page builders, I'm not working on that website anyway. And that saves me the hassle of I'm going to do paid discovery and then decline the work. You **[36:21]** know what I mean? >> Yeah. >> So, usually I go in and I go, is does this website have a decent structure? Does it look like it's fairly clean enough to to to be accepted as a project for us? And then if it is, I'll say, hey, we could do the next step, which is paid discovery and really audit your site and your content and your data. Well, it's interesting that you view those calls as consulting calls and pre- It sounds Sounds like you're kind of double as consulting and pre-sales. >> Consulting pre-sales because a lot of times the customers, they get on and **[36:51]** they start dictating the flow a little bit. I should be in more control, but I'm like, "Hey, you booked the time. You know what? What did you have on your schedule today?" And that's when I find out, oh, you're just looking for free advice or this is a potential job. >> Yeah. I was thinking like as you were talking uh let's say they wanted free consulting. What if hypothetically you sent them to a junior developer that you instructed don't answer any tech questions because we don't want to be on the the hook for that but like and then they get on they're like you don't know anything. You're like well yeah it costs **[37:22]** money to talk to Kurt you know like uh I kind of like that sort of thing. It's kind of like you can talk to our AI chatbot. Sure that's free. Um, you know, but if you want expert, you know, experience and expertise, we can bu you know, I think it I I've learned over the years like I try not to give away any information on those sales initial calls. Yeah. >> Every now and then I do. I was on one yesterday. I don't want to say it's like I'm I'm not hardcore about it. Like I had a guy who was like he has a business **[37:53]** that makes $2,000 a year and he told me this on the call and I'm like, >> "You're not my client." >> First. Yeah. I was like, first of all, the minimum I'm charging is half of that. Like, and so I was like really upfront. I'm like, I don't know if it's worth it to continue, but and I I gave him free advice. I was like, maybe you should call your host and see if they can help with this issue, and if they can't, that you know, which is actually really He's like, I didn't think of that. And even that advice, like I I knew as I was saying it, like that's valuable advice. it's probably worth **[38:25]** hundred bucks maybe more, you know. >> Um, as we're having this discussion and you said I don't give out technical advice. I think and this is I think this is great perspective for potential agencies to consider. When I first launched my agency, for some reason, I thought it was important to disclose, you know, which form tool I'm going to use or we're building in WordPress at all. Like like uh it it was so weird. Like I **[38:55]** thought I thought it was incumbent upon me to share like how the bricks are made. You know what I mean? Like I'm going to build you a house, but these are how we make the bricks. >> Um >> people buying a house don't care where the bricks come from. >> Right. And people running a business in a lot of cases don't care where the site comes from. That's why these SAS companies are making so much money, right? Because they're not even, let me vibe code you something, right? They're not even going into the details about it. It's like, you have a problem. I have a solution. I'm going to charge you **[39:25]** $5,000. That's And so over the years, I have changed the way that I disclose how we do these projects because I'll just say, "Well, hey, you know what? No problem. we've got a, you know, we've got a process on how we make your website. We've got these tools available. You know, we're going to put in a CRM. We're going to put in an LMS. You know, we're going to have a way for people to book appointments with you. Um, are there any other pain points in your business that need addressed beyond those features? And I start having a conversation about features rather than tools. Mhm. **[39:56]** >> And um and that's been the way that we've been selling now for four or five years just because I found that when I start saying, "Oh, we're going to use Lifter LMS and it has these features and this and content restriction." They It's too much. >> Yeah. That's they're just running a business. >> Totally. >> I feel like my friends and I always have this debate and they'll tell you my friends locally who do WordPress consulting for a living. Like I can't tell you how many long boring conversations they've tried to engage me in that have to do with what should I include in my maintenance plan and how **[40:26]** much should I charge? My answer is I don't care. They don't care. You should charge as much as you can possibly get. Like >> I I this is so so weird that we're having this conversation. I am in the middle of battling myself on how to offer this local plan that we're doing, right? And it's because there are people in my location that are doing like these subscription website services and they're and and I'm like, well, what's included with your plan? What should I include with my plan? What but then it **[40:58]** comes down to, let's just be real. I'm the one running the WordPress meetup in town. I'm the one going to the the chamber events. I'm the one going to the the local startup events. I'm the face that's I shouldn't be competing with people that are doing these weird one-off subscription plans. Yeah, I am offering a real equitable product. And so there's we're kind of struggling with how much how much do we require from people upfront for like a setup fee for a startup site plus hosting and **[41:28]** maintenance versus like a monthly subscription example of that? Like what would that look like? And so we we have finally come up with a plan to launch that. But it's it's been a little painful because of what we're talking about today. what level of expertise, coaching, training, um you know, all of the other ad advisement that comes into making a web project. Looking at everything that we deliver as an agency, there's a value to that and we can't just give it away and devalue ourselves. And cream does rise to the top. We have **[42:00]** to find the clients that have the ability to put cream in their coffee rather than drink their coffee black. >> Think of like maybe an analogy for me that comes to mind is like there's a car repair shop down the street. I take my car to it. I went there f the first time because it was the closest car repair shop and I was like great. And they haven't I don't know if they're screwing me over to date. It's now been 5 years. They seem fair. >> They seem fair. >> And the conversations we have seem reasonable. And I think like you know with any product and I'm thinking about **[42:31]** your thing like it's not even about the value they're providing in terms of the product. I'm just like, "Yeah, I I'm It's not breaking the bank and I feel pretty good about the purchase." Like, >> yeah, >> and I'll never leave unless they I feel like they screwed me over. >> That's the reality of it. >> Yeah. You got to earn them and then once you earn them, it should be fairly simple to keep them. >> Mhm. >> Just do what you say you're going to do. >> Yeah. And and you gotta be you got to be around really, too, because they'll forget they have you. **[43:03]** And if you don't have a physical, like this guy has a shop. If he didn't have a shop, I would totally forget where I went. Like if it was an internet location, like ah I don't want to search my email. I'll just Google it again. >> Yeah. Where does Bob live? >> Yeah. It's I do think like along these lines like I think that uh a big part of marketing is marketing to your existing customers. Like just to let them know who you are. You have to remind them that you did work for them. >> Yeah. Yeah. And especially with websites **[43:34]** because we run agencies and a lot of us fail to recognize that a lot of people don't think about their website on a daily basis. You know, it it's it's amazing to me how many people like a landscaper landscaper is busy driving around getting gas, sharpening lawn mower blades. You know, he's getting business to mow lawns. He's not really caring about the website unless someone calls him and says, "I tried to look you up on your website and it didn't come up." >> Right? And then they have to go to their email. They go, "Who who did I hire to build my website?" And they Google it. **[44:06]** >> They find your email. They email you and then they go, "Did he respond? Was the offer to fix it reasonable?" >> Yeah. >> Well, think about this. How many new clients do you converse with that have an existing URL, but when you start talking about, you know, DNS settings and changing things over, they don't even know where the thing's registered. >> No. They have no idea where anything is. >> Yeah. Is it on? Is it on GoDaddy? Is it on Blue Host? is that they don't know where it's at. >> They have no It's funny cuz they really have most of the time they have no idea **[44:36]** who their web host is and they have no idea where it's registered. Yeah. Yeah. They're You know what? We covered a lot today. We really really did. And I want to value your time and the time of everybody else that that that comes to this. Um let's end with this. If you are watching the show, like, share, follow, subscribe, all those things. Obviously, we need your help in getting getting the motion out there, but also put in the comments like what topics you would like us to cover from an agency perspective or or things **[45:07]** that you're working on because I think that would be so so important. If you've got an idea that we could cover that would add content for us, we want to make sure that we meet your needs and that we we kind of express thoughts on on things that concern you. Toby, where can people reach you? >> I can be found on linkedin.com. Uh you can search for my name, DM me. How about you, Kurt? >> Same thing. Uh, I'll be honest. I've been really bad about LinkedIn the last two weeks. I've got an inordinate amount of direct messaging spam in LinkedIn the **[45:37]** last couple of weeks >> and uh it's wearing me out a bit. So, I'll get through that and get back on back on the plot. >> That's a cliffhanger for next week. I think >> that could be a cliffhanger. >> LinkedIn spam is it should you send it or not? >> Uh, I have thoughts. Not only that, I have a course on how to grow your LinkedIn without spamming people. >> A something else you learn everybody or go to mannomoth.com. >> Get your answer today. >> This has been great. We'll see you next **[46:08]** time.