Unnamed video 🔗 **Source:** [Unnamed video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZzK0jGceI8) > [!note]+ Document Notes > tags: [WordPress, Trademarks, Hosting] > author: [MISSING] > source: YouTube > reference: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZzK0jGceI8] > date created: > > # 🏷️ Title: We HAD to change the name after ONE day 🤯 > <!-- deep-read:sections start --> ## 🧰 Action Inbox - [H5] Draft a naming-safe checklist — https://wordpressfoundation.org/trademark-policy/ #articleseed - [H3] Ship a public hosting-type calculator demo — https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZzK0jGceI8 #articleseed - [H2] Record a LifterLMS builder walkthrough for Training — https://lifterlms.com #share - [H10] Publish “Avoidable WordPress cons” checklist — https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZzK0jGceI8&t=2399 #articleseed - [H8] Update titles to “for WordPress” phrasing — https://wordpressfoundation.org/trademark-policy/ #addendum - [H11] Compare Webflow CMS limits vs WordPress — https://webflow.com/pricing #xref - [H12] Template an AI research workflow note — https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZzK0jGceI8&t=2181 #xref - [H7] Document ethical affiliate placements policy — https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZzK0jGceI8&t=1118 #articleseed - [H1] Write an AWS outage postmortem checklist — https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZzK0jGceI8&t=4 #xref ## 🧭 Table of Contents - [📝 Summary](#-summary) - [📖 Main Content](#-main-content) - [🗒️ Notes](#️-notes) - [📚 References](#-references) - [🗣️ Paraphrase](#️-paraphrase) - [📰 Newsletter](#-newsletter) - [✅ Action Items](#-action-items) - [🧪 Hypotheses](#-hypotheses) - [📊 Methodology](#-methodology) - [❓ Questions](#-questions) - [🔮 Future Research](#-future-research) - [💡 Implications](#-implications) - [🧠 Learning Styles Assessment](#-learning-styles-assessment) - [📊 Accessibility Assessment](#-accessibility-assessment) - [🌍 DEIB Assessment](#-deib-assessment) - [✅ Logical Validity](#-logical-validity) - [🛡️ DARVO Analysis](#-darvo-analysis) - [🎯 Conclusion](#-conclusion) ### 🔗 References - WordPress Foundation Trademark Policy. https://wordpressfoundation.org/trademark-policy/ - LifterLMS overview. https://lifterlms.com - Webflow pricing and CMS limits. https://webflow.com/pricing - Video transcript segments cite the YouTube timestamps directly. ## 📝 Summary - A creator launched a free hosting course. An AWS outage disrupted publishing. - A trademark warning forced a rapid rename. The team changed assets quickly. - The course adds a quiz and a hosting-type calculator. Agencies can train staff. - The WordPress trademark policy restricts product naming. Confusion persists. - The bottom line: follow the policy, prefer “for WordPress,” ship value, and document choices. - Policy source: WordPress Foundation trademark policy. https://wordpressfoundation.org/trademark-policy/ ## 📖 Main Content - The video recounts a launch week with hurdles and fixes. - LifterLMS powers the course builder and quiz flows. See [H2]. https://lifterlms.com - A calculator recommends hosting types from project signals. See [H3], [H4]. - An Automattic contact flagged trademark use within a day. See [H5]. - The WordPress policy bans “WordPress” inside product names. Cite the rule. https://wordpressfoundation.org/trademark-policy/ - The creator reframed titles as “for WordPress,” improving SEO prospects. See [H8]. - Discussion covers ambiguous “commercial” use in mixed models. See [H9]. - They argue WordPress cons are often avoidable with knowledge. See [H10]. - They note Webflow CMS and user limits as tradeoffs. See [H11]. https://webflow.com/pricing - They also prototype AI-assisted research workflows. See [H12]. ### 🗒️ Notes #### ⏱️ [00:00:04](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZzK0jGceI8&t=4) Setup and outage ### [H1] AWS outage disrupts main recording workflow > [!quote] [We HAD to change the name after ONE day 🤯](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZzK0jGceI8) by [an unnamed author] via [[YouTube]]. Published [MISSING]. Accessed . > “AWS outage today totally destroyed our processing of the original video.” Short-term resilience matters. Keep backup recordings and publish paths. [view highlight](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZzK0jGceI8&t=4) #xref ID:rw_[MISSING] #### ⏱️ [00:02:03](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZzK0jGceI8&t=123) Course builder ### [H2] LifterLMS builder streamlines course creation inside WordPress > [!quote] [We HAD to change the name after ONE day 🤯](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZzK0jGceI8) by [an unnamed author] via [[YouTube]]. Published [MISSING]. Accessed . > “They do a nice course builder interface… build out all the lessons and manipulate it.” The builder reduces friction for non-developers and speeds iteration. [view highlight](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZzK0jGceI8&t=123) #share #xref ID:rw_[MISSING] #### ⏱️ [00:04:18](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZzK0jGceI8&t=258) Quiz and calculator ### [H3] Course includes a calculator and certification quiz > [!quote] [We HAD to change the name after ONE day 🤯](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZzK0jGceI8) by [an unnamed author] via [[YouTube]]. Published [MISSING]. Accessed . > “There’s a calculator… and then there’s the certification… if you pass the quiz you get a… certificate.” Quizzes check learning; calculators drive applied decisions. [view highlight](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZzK0jGceI8&t=258) #articleseed ID:rw_[MISSING] #### ⏱️ [00:07:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZzK0jGceI8&t=420) Hosting recommendations ### [H4] Calculator recommends hosting type from project signals > [!quote] [We HAD to change the name after ONE day 🤯](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZzK0jGceI8) by [an unnamed author] via [[YouTube]]. Published [MISSING]. Accessed . > “Based on those requirements, it’ll say… managed hosting looks to be the leader…” Use the output to frame client tradeoffs early. [view highlight](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZzK0jGceI8&t=420) #xref ID:rw_[MISSING] #### ⏱️ [00:11:49](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZzK0jGceI8&t=709) Trademark contact ### [H5] Trademark warning forces rapid course renaming > [!quote] [We HAD to change the name after ONE day 🤯](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZzK0jGceI8) by [an unnamed author] via [[YouTube]]. Published [MISSING]. Accessed . > “Pretty sure this is infringing on the WordPress hosting trademark…” Follow policy; reduce legal risk; plan fallback names. [view highlight](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZzK0jGceI8&t=709) #articleseed ID:rw_[MISSING] #### ⏱️ [00:18:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZzK0jGceI8&t=1110) Policy excerpt ### [H6] Policy bans “WordPress” in product or company names > [!quote] [We HAD to change the name after ONE day 🤯](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZzK0jGceI8) by [an unnamed author] via [[YouTube]]. Published [MISSING]. Accessed . > “They cannot use them as part of a product, project, service, domain name, or company name.” Prefer “for WordPress” wording to avoid endorsement signals. [view highlight](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZzK0jGceI8&t=1110) #xref ID:rw_[MISSING] #### ⏱️ [00:18:58](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZzK0jGceI8&t=1138) Affiliates ### [H7] Affiliates fit outside the course with care > [!quote] [We HAD to change the name after ONE day 🤯](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZzK0jGceI8) by [an unnamed author] via [[YouTube]]. Published [MISSING]. Accessed . > “You could like link to… affiliate link out to the hosting companies that you have partnerships with…” Disclose clearly and separate from instruction. [view highlight](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZzK0jGceI8&t=1118) #articleseed ID:rw_[MISSING] #### ⏱️ [00:16:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZzK0jGceI8&t=1005) SEO angle ### [H8] Renaming improves SEO with “for WordPress” phrasing > [!quote] [We HAD to change the name after ONE day 🤯](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZzK0jGceI8) by [an unnamed author] via [[YouTube]]. Published [MISSING]. Accessed . > “This is much more SEO… how to choose the best host for WordPress.” Name for search and compliance together. [view highlight](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZzK0jGceI8&t=1005) #addendum ID:rw_[MISSING] #### ⏱️ [00:23:41](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZzK0jGceI8&t=1421) Commercial ambiguity ### [H9] “Commercial use” boundaries remain ambiguous for creators > [!quote] [We HAD to change the name after ONE day 🤯](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZzK0jGceI8) by [an unnamed author] via [[YouTube]]. Published [MISSING]. Accessed . > “That’s very blurry though. Like what does commercial mean?” Document revenue links and seek counsel when unsure. [view highlight](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZzK0jGceI8&t=1421) #xref ID:rw_[MISSING] #### ⏱️ [00:40:49](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZzK0jGceI8&t=2449) WordPress cons ### [H10] Many WordPress cons are avoidable with knowledge > [!quote] [We HAD to change the name after ONE day 🤯](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZzK0jGceI8) by [an unnamed author] via [[YouTube]]. Published [MISSING]. Accessed . > “I feel like the cons of WordPress are often mitigable by knowledge and workflow.” Invest in training and guardrails to reduce risk. [view highlight](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZzK0jGceI8&t=2449) #articleseed ID:rw_[MISSING] #### ⏱️ [00:37:49](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZzK0jGceI8&t=2269) Webflow limits ### [H11] Webflow CMS and user limits constrain projects > [!quote] [We HAD to change the name after ONE day 🤯](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZzK0jGceI8) by [an unnamed author] via [[YouTube]]. Published [MISSING]. Accessed . > “Webflow boxes you in with… how many user accounts you can have per plan.” Map limits early; avoid surprise costs. [view highlight](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZzK0jGceI8&t=2269) #xref ID:rw_[MISSING] #### ⏱️ [00:36:21](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZzK0jGceI8&t=2181) AI workflow ### [H12] AI assists market research and lightweight apps > [!quote] [We HAD to change the name after ONE day 🤯](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZzK0jGceI8) by [an unnamed author] via [[YouTube]]. Published [MISSING]. Accessed . > “It built me the list of 50 agencies with all their social media.” Template the pipeline; capture steps for reuse. [view highlight](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZzK0jGceI8&t=2181) #xref ID:rw_[MISSING] ## 📚 References - WordPress Foundation — Trademark Policy. https://wordpressfoundation.org/trademark-policy/ - LifterLMS — Product overview. https://lifterlms.com - Webflow — Pricing and CMS item limits. https://webflow.com/pricing - Video: We HAD to change the name after ONE day 🤯. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZzK0jGceI8 - Note: The course URL was spoken. The exact link may differ; no verified link provided. ## 🗣️ Paraphrase - The team launched a free hosting course and tools. An AWS outage hurt publishing. A trademark warning arrived quickly. They renamed the course and rebuilt assets. - The talk covered quizzes, a hosting calculator, policy constraints, and SEO. They debated “commercial” boundaries and platform tradeoffs. They also shared an AI research workflow. ## 📰 Newsletter - A new free course explains hosting choices for WordPress sites. It adds a quiz and a practical calculator. Watch the backstory and lessons learned. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZzK0jGceI8 - Review the WordPress trademark policy before naming products or courses. The safe pattern is “for WordPress.” https://wordpressfoundation.org/trademark-policy/ - LifterLMS remains a fast builder for structured learning. Worth a look for training teams. https://lifterlms.com - Planning with Webflow? Check CMS and user limits early. Budget accordingly. https://webflow.com/pricing ## ✅ Action Items #### DevRel - Publish a “for WordPress” naming guide with examples and tests. - Ship a demo calculator block with docs and telemetry opt-in. - Record a five-minute LifterLMS builder tour for new contributors. - Add quiz templates and grading rubrics to the repo. #### OSPO - Draft an internal trademark-compliance SOP with review gates. - Add “commercial use” decision records to the policy folder. - Include naming checks in release PR templates. - Track third-party marks in a lightweight registry. #### Community - Run a calculator feedback sprint with agencies. - Offer office hours on naming and disclosure patterns. - Publish sponsor disclosure examples for courses. - Share a checklist for outage resilience in content workflows. #### WordPress - Core: document “for WordPress” usage in .org guides. - Training: add hosting-type lessons and a quiz bank. - Community: include policy primers in meetup kits. - Documentation: link policy and SEO naming examples. #### The WPOCC - Pilot microgrants for public learning tools like calculators. - Fund governance clinics on naming and disclosures. - Publish transparent ledgers for course sponsorships. ### FAIR - Add trademark and disclosure covenants to FAIR templates. - Provide a scorecard for naming risk and mitigation. - Record provenance for course assets and title changes. ## 🧪 Hypotheses - “For WordPress” titles reduce trademark risk without hurting SEO. - Public calculators increase qualified leads for agencies. - Quizzes improve concept retention for new WordPress staff. - Clear disclosure policies improve sponsor trust metrics. - AI-assisted research reduces partner prospecting time by half. ### 📊 Methodology - Run A/B tests on title variants in search snippets. - Track calculator usage, completions, and contact conversions. - Pre/post quiz scores measure learning gains. - Survey sponsor trust before and after disclosure upgrades. - Timebox manual vs AI pipelines on the same task. ### ❓ Questions - Where exactly does “commercial use” start in mixed models? - Which calculator inputs correlate most with successful hosting choices? - What phrasing best signals independence and non-endorsement? - How should agencies disclose affiliates inside educational flows? ### 🔮 Future Research - Build a shared “for WordPress” naming corpus and linter. - Publish an open rubric for hosting recommendation logic. - Study creator stress from compliance uncertainty and fixes. ### 💡 Implications - Clear naming rules reduce legal risk and cognitive load. - Public tools shift education from opinion to applied practice. - Better disclosures protect users and sponsors long term. ### 🧠 Learning Styles Assessment - Reading level estimate: Grade 9–11 by Flesch-Kincaid. #### 👀 Visual learners - Present: builder UI, quiz UI. - Improve: flowcharts of hosting decisions. #### 🔊 Aural learners - Present: video discussion. - Improve: short audio summaries with chapters. #### 🗣️ Verbal learners - Present: definitions and terms during talk. - Improve: a glossary of hosting types. #### 🧩 Kinesthetic learners - Present: interactive calculator. - Improve: sandbox tasks with scenarios. #### 🧠 Logical learners - Present: decision logic narrative. - Improve: decision trees and KPIs. #### 🧑‍🤝‍🧑 Social learners - Present: team training use-cases. - Improve: cohort-based learning kits. #### 🧘‍♀️ Solitary learners - Present: self-paced video. - Improve: reflection prompts and checklists. #### 🌿 Naturalistic learners - Present: limited ties. - Improve: sustainability angles for hosting choices. ### 📊 Accessibility Assessment #### Screen reader semantics - Present: timestamps and headings. - Improve: alt text for visuals and slides. #### Keyboard navigation - Present: standard video controls. - Improve: chapter markers and focus order notes. #### Contrast and readability - Present: defaults vary by platform. - Improve: style guide for slides and pages. #### Text resizing and reflow - Present: responsive players. - Improve: 200% checks on course pages. #### Media and captions - Present: YouTube captions likely available. - Improve: downloadable transcripts with speakers labeled. #### Forms and interactions - Present: quiz UI not shown. - Improve: ARIA roles and error states documented. #### Standards reference - Map gaps to WCAG 2.2 AA criteria. ### 🌍 DEIB Assessment #### Cultural breadth - Present: global WordPress context. - Improve: multi-region examples and translations. #### Inclusive language - Present: mostly neutral phrasing. - Improve: define jargon inline. #### Neurodiversity support - Present: chunked talk segments. - Improve: icon+text labels on materials. #### Representation - Present: limited on-screen diversity info. - Improve: inclusive imagery and credits. #### Psychological safety - Present: respectful debate on policy. - Improve: community guidelines for course forums. ### ✅ Logical Validity #### Strong reasoning - Causal: naming policy affects legal risk [H5], [H6]. This links rule to outcome. - Pragmatic: calculators shape client conversations [H4]. It aids scoping. - Inductive: WordPress cons reduce with knowledge [H10]. Experience supports it. #### Fallacies - Possible hasty generalization around platform limits [H11]. Specify plans and caps. - Ambiguity in “commercial use” [H9]. Define scope and examples. #### Tone of voice - Conversational and candid. - Critical yet constructive toward policy and platforms. ### 🛡️ DARVO Analysis - Deny: none observed. - Attack: none observed. - Reverse victim/offender: none observed. - The speakers critique policy impacts without personal attacks. ## 🎯 Conclusion - Rename fast when policy requires it. Protect momentum and trust. - Use quizzes and calculators to move learning into action. - Prefer “for WordPress” phrasing. Document disclosures and revenue ties. - Template resilient workflows for outages and research tasks. ## 🧱 Refactor Appendix (append after 🎯 Conclusion) ### 📚 Literature Split Pad - Purpose: Stage Konik CEE units that become per-source Literature notes. - Split level: **H3**. - Include verbatim quotes under 25 words and a [view highlight] link. ### [H1] 5–10-word present-tense claim > [!quote] [Title or entity](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZzK0jGceI8) by [[{Author or [MISSING]}]] via [[{Site or [MISSING]}]]. Published [MISSING]. Accessed . > “Short quote, verbatim, ≤25 words.” Two lines: context and use. Cite data if relevant. [view highlight](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZzK0jGceI8#H1) #xref #articleseed ID:rw_[MISSING] ### [H2] 5–10-word present-tense claim > [!quote] [Title or entity](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZzK0jGceI8) > “Short quote, verbatim, ≤25 words.” Two lines: context and use. [view highlight](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZzK0jGceI8#H2) #xref ID:rw_[MISSING] --- ### 🔖 Atomic Split Pad (Zettel Candidates) - Purpose: Promote reusable claims into Atomic notes. - Split level: **H4**. - Each item: one idea, present tense, specific, testable. #### [Z1] 5–10-word present-tense claim - Scope/condition in one line. - Pointer to page/time or dataset. - Links: [[Parent-Concept]] [[Related-Idea]] #### [Z2] 5–10-word present-tense claim - Scope/condition in one line. - Pointer to page/time or dataset. - Links: [[Parent-Concept]] [[Related-Idea]] --- ### ✏️ Fleeting Queue (Extract by Selection) - Purpose: Capture quick actions or sparks for Fleeting notes. - Extraction: **Select one line** → “Refactor: Extract selection to new note (content only).” - Keep each line short and self-contained. - [F1] Short action — context/https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZzK0jGceI8 #fleeting #inbox - [F2] Short action — context/https://wordpressfoundation.org/trademark-policy/ #fleeting #inbox - [F3] Short action — context/https://webflow.com/pricing #fleeting #inbox --- <!-- deep-read:sections end --> ## 📺 Video  --- # 📄 Full Transcript *Auto-generated from YouTube captions · timestamps roughly every 30 seconds · [watch on YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZzK0jGceI8)* **[00:00]** Welcome back to today's episode. Uh Matt from the future here. Realized that the AWS outage today totally destroyed our processing of the original video. So I was able to use the Riverside backup video which is just recorded over the web and uh unfortunately it didn't record the whole episode but a good chunk uh enough of it. So, we're going to pick up um sort of uh a third of the third of the way through where Mark was asking me about how I built the new courses at the wpmin.com/courses. **[00:30]** We're going to get into some other fun stuff like why I already had to change the name for trademark reasons two days into launch. Um and some other fun AI stuff. Hope you enjoyed today's episode >> over the last year or two now. But was your main skill ever building websites or was it always was that always part of it as just a part of it or how what's just refresh my memory on this. >> Yeah, I mean my main skill was like when I started the agency and got into WordPress was building websites and um >> yeah I mean I I enjoy doing it. Would I **[01:01]** have loved to be able to just hand this to somebody and have them build it? Um yeah, but the you know the money wasn't there to do that right or even like the time because even if I was like okay let me find somebody you know it's the unfortunate thing is like if >> this is another tangent we don't have to go down but if I knocked on somebody's door and like post status who's like a US-based person and I like hey can you build this course out for me like this you know the the structure of it and like import the content and do all this stuff it would have been like $4,500. **[01:33]** >> Yes. you know, and that's like there goes all my membership money for the year and this course is free, you know, so it's just like, you know, I don't have I don't have the revenue for that at the WP Minute. So, uh, but yeah, my background was this still to a degree. I'm doing it all the time with like tutorial stuff and like doing things at Gravity Forms and so far it's a Lifter LMS site a year for the last three years that I've launched. So, uh, >> nice. >> And they do make it easy. Like I think they did a really like if you're **[02:04]** thinking about an LMS, obviously Lifter is free. They do a nice course builder interface, so you can like build out all the lessons and and manipulate it. Um it's it feels like it's inside WordPress, but it's like detached from WordPress and it allows you to do a bunch of things, you know, really uh quickly. Um I'm actually gonna be on Chris's podcast this week or next week. I would really love like the edit screen to just the content of the course to just pop up in that builder so it **[02:35]** doesn't have to load a whole other post. Uh that would make it really really more efficient in that builder. But those are little things. Sweet. Um one one other thought and then we can get into some of the other the things you had to deal with like kind of post launch. Uh I do want to talk about another really interesting part. You talked about it. You you briefly mentioned it, but there's the course and I'm looking at it on my side. I know we don't want to screen share anything on this wacky Riverside platform, >> which is a lovehate relationship with this, but um eight looks like eight like **[03:07]** modules, eight videos. >> Um and then there's also this quiz component which I thought was really interesting and you did a short on this. >> Yep. >> Uh so we I know we can link something up somewhere or whatever. But the I liked that. I want to know more about, you know, kind of just a little bit of how you did that and how the idea was porn born born because I think if you I think that's something that like is even more tangible than just giving people information, right? And giving people opinion, experience, and all that. If you give if you give them like, **[03:39]** okay, here's everything, but you're probably this maybe this is your first time seeing stuff like this, right? Okay. Well, just to like, you know, I would think if I'm a beginner, if I put myself in a beginner's shoes, I watch this stuff. Okay, I know more now, but I'm still probably not exactly sure. And then the fact that you give them a little bit of a like it's not a calculator, but like something like that, like a calculated quiz where you're putting in information about like your specific position right now and the types of websites you're building and the project you're building. And then it gives you recommendation. Doesn't give you a specific host. It gives you **[04:11]** shared, managed, dedicated, etc. Right. So, just walk me through that a little bit because I thought that was a really neat idea. >> Yeah. So those are two distinct things uh in the course. There's a a calculator uh which like you said you punch your uh project requirements in and it recommends the type of host that you should go with and then there's the certification where if you pass the quiz you get a little uh you know fun certificate. U but I really do see that I want to start with that one first because I really do see that as you know value. I've been working with a bunch of **[04:44]** well not working chatting with a bunch of other uh WordPress agencies and I was just like telling them hey if you have people on the team that uh are developers engineers project managers the thing that a lot of people forget and I've seen this through Page Castos even where I'm at with Gravity Forms like you have people in the organization yes you're a WordPress business but that doesn't mean that everyone in that business knows or even cares **[05:15]** about all things WordPress like they don't they you know they're not living and breathing a lot of people aren't living and breathing this stuff like you and I maybe the people watching this so I think it's important for uh agency owners and other WordPress companies to be able to educate have a nice resource to educate their staff and obviously hosting is important and if you have people who are just like recommending sending hosting to their clients that they interact with or customers that they interact with. I **[05:45]** believe that hosting is so important that hey, tell your team to come take this course and if they pass the quiz, they get a little search badge of of completion, right? And then they can show that to you and maybe you buy them lunch or something like that, right? like something that helps folks understand and we plan on deploying more courses so that it is more valuable to agency owners or WordP WordPress companies that service customers. So there's that. So there's the ed the certificate of completion that people can take and then **[06:17]** the calculator that I built was built with Telix um from automatic to uh build a calculator block so that I could put in the resources. There's I think the last course is like a checklist and a resource. That's one of the things that took a little while for Eric and I to figure out cuz like we wanted something tangible where once they go through the course they can kind of like apply that knowledge aside from the quiz like something that they could use maybe to help them think about **[06:48]** their customers. And and this is very basic. This is for, you know, the freelancer agency owner who's brand new to this stuff. like if you're a veteran, you you kind of know this, but maybe this is a good refresher for you. Um, but we wanted to make sure that the people coming in understood that if a customer says, "I have 100,000 page views a month, I run Woo Commerce, or I'm thinking about a membership site, and you click these things into the calculator, based on those requirements, it'll say, well, manage hosting is fine. **[07:20]** manage hosting looks to be the the leader for this kind of thing, but maybe you see a dedicated hosting environment is like 60% recommended. So, should you be thinking about that with this build? And it just kind of helps you contextualize that engagement with the customer >> so that you're not just like shared hosting and you're, you know, and that customer's crashing uh, you know, when their site launches. So, that calculator uh is pretty cool. Eric's wants me to make it public um so that **[07:54]** people can see it and interact with it. And it's sort of like, you know, whatever. If you go to like a bank website and they have a mortgage calculator, you're like, "Oh, >> let me see what the mortgage rate is. How much would my house cost and then I'm on this bank's website, so maybe I'll do business with them kind of thing." >> Yeah. >> Um that's sort of how we got there. >> Definitely kind of cool. Um, I mean, if you do put that on the front, if you kind of separate that out from the course a little bit. I mean, from a business perspective, I do see like an opportunity to be like, **[08:27]** you know, I don't know. I don't think this is unethical. It just depends on what you're you want to do with like WP Minute. You could say if it's shared hosting, you could like link to, you know, affiliate link out to the to the hosting companies that you have partnerships with for those those specific ones. >> I mean, is that I don't know. Obviously, it's kind of outside the course at that point. So, maybe it's a little different, but that is because like you you bring up the bank example. It's like, okay, well, they came here to look at the hosting thing. That's great, >> but they can't get hosting from you. You **[08:59]** know, they can't they can't do that business with you. So, I'm just thinking of, you know, business side things. But, >> yeah, >> but I think it's great. >> Yeah. I mean, I I I do have plans to like align my hosting C uh sponsors with the course um you know, in a deeper way. I I don't want it to be like you should definitely use XYZ host. >> Yeah. Um, but I I do want to right now everybody's logo appears at the bottom of of the course lessons. So, there's visibility there and to the back end of **[09:31]** my business. That's the value for sponsoring us because now we're literally trying to get we're trying to put visibility across. One of the things I do, which I've talked about at Nauseium, but trying to add more value to my sponsorships because I really think like the friend funds are going away. uh in in WordPress content. So, I work really hard with the type of audience that we have to get our sponsors in front of them in audio, **[10:02]** video, in the newsletter, on the website, and now in the courses. Uh so that we're just giving them the most possible visibility, but also without like pissing off the audience where it's not just like ads all the time, you know? So, >> it's a fine line. >> It's a fine line. >> All right. So, again, congratulations on this launch. Seems like it's going quite well uh so far. At least initially received well. You had a little bit of a **[10:33]** hangup. Had a little bit of a little bit of a fun situation though. Not really, but uh that happened afterwards. So, this was originally called something different >> and now it's a different title. So, tell me the story here. What What's going on? Yeah. So, it was originally called WordPress hosting decoded and um and then we also use I'm already forgetting that the other tagline that I had in there. So, we it was something uh like become a WordPress hosting specialist through the course or whatever. And uh I was contacted by **[11:06]** somebody high up in automatic uh like a day after I launched it and probably a day after um it was published on uh the repository and they were like pretty sure this is infringing on uh the uh WordPress hosting trademark uh that automatic holds. And uh you know I asked for some clarification and it was you know just loosely like if you say WordPress something with WordPress in front of it it implies something official and you would need a commercial **[11:36]** license for that. You know I asked for how much a WordPress license commercial license costs. I didn't get a reply. You know I probably couldn't afford it anyway. But it would be nice to know like how much uh I would have to I would have to pay to have that commercial license even though I think it's an arbitrary number and they could probably sell it to me if they if they thought you know I was doing something great. So I thought you know once the the whole lawsuit thing happened last year I re I you know I changed up a lot of the like the **[12:07]** verbiage. I have a disclaimer in the bottom of the WordPress site. all this stuff. Um, I thought as a free course, you know, I would it would be okay. Like it wouldn't be looked at as like trying to monopolize or trying to like dominate anything. I looked at it two ways. I looked at it as this is freaking annoying and like why do we have like do we have to question WordPress everything now as people that are like really supporting this project? Like I've said **[12:38]** before, my game plan moving forward is to support and I am unapologetically saying a cheerleader for WordPress. I am still going to be critical on the things I don't like, but I am going to promote the use of it. everything WordPress, Gutenberg, Woo Commerce, WordPress. That's what I'm doing because I think there needs to be a stronger base and then everybody else can promote whatever else they want on top of that ecosystem. I'm looking at it from the foundation of **[13:09]** the ecosystem and I want to support that. So, it's very tough to be like, man, I'm just trying to do this thing to help people make the right host hosting decisions. Um, and it's free and that's all I'm trying to do. Like I am as transparent as as I can be with the WP Minute. I try to be. Eric and I try to put as much great effort into this. So, it was aggravating and a little bit of energy sucked out of uh the room for me, but **[13:39]** also like business is business and I understand why there's rules. So, I can also kind of appreciate that it happened a day later versus a letter in the mail uh from a lawyer uh or like, you know, six months from now when like I've built off like many other modules for the for the course or we eventually get into some like cohort training that we want to do. So, it's okay, fine. It's it's nice that **[14:13]** uh I know about it now versus later. and they gave me the heads up. So, but it's also like de not demoralizing, it wasn't that much of a of a pain, but all weekend I had to go through and replace everything that we, you know, obviously replace the naming, obviously replace I had to do all the graphics all over again, um, replace all the, you know, text in the courses, replace the slides, like do all that stuff. um which was uh which was annoying, but it was better than getting sued, **[14:44]** which you know, I'll take. Uh but yeah, having to change the name uh was a bit of a a shocker, but now it's hosting decoded. Uh how to choose the best host for WordPress, you know, even like wrestling with the title like how to choose the best WordPress host. You can't I guess you can't say that anymore, right? So, it's now how to choose the best host for WordPress. and um maybe helps any other content creators that are out there who are doing something more official. >> Did you did you consider um just first **[15:17]** first question because there's a couple different things I want to hit on here. Did you consider using WP? >> Well, when I when I first got the message, I did. Um, but no, because like I'm also trying to like do the keyword thing. >> Mhm. >> You know, so it's kind of like eh, you know. So even like changing the name, this changing the name might just be the blessing or the curse like when we this was actually one of similar title to **[15:47]** what we had written down when we ideulated the the course name and stuff. um this is much more SEO ccentric I would call it and that's what I reverted to. I'm like you know what screw it just go back to this SEO kind of way was just like how to choose the best host for WordPress you know and maybe maybe it's actually a a boon to the situation where it actually get more traffic because of it. >> I see. Okay. Um well the other thing **[16:18]** then is I mean to play off of this motif that you have to deal with then is you know like where does it would really be great to get some clarity I guess on some of these things right because yeah >> in your case you were calling a course WordPress blank blank blank right >> y >> there's a couple different areas though that I'm still confused on and for somebody that creates content and products or whatever and like these things my future in this niche. I would like some clarity. I think that would be **[16:49]** fantastic because I'm still confused. So like if we think about like what you could name realistically name something WordPress WordPress blank versus something for WordPress or with WordPress or etc. There's a couple different things. There's like there's a course. there's like your something as crazy as your job title or like what you call yourself like right like a WordPress developer or a developer with WordPress for WordPress etc. So that's **[17:19]** that's one there's agencies which you brought up but I didn't even think of that and then there's plugins or how you even describe yourself in those instances. >> So I wonder if it's I wonder if there's anything around that as well. I wonder if it's not just how you're using the trademark, but but also in like what instance of those things that you're using a trademark because where does where does that where does that leave us like WordPress just always has to go at the end I guess of whatever you're saying? I don't know. So on the **[17:50]** WordPressfoundation.org or like I I knew obviously I mean I've been covered covered this whole lawsuit thing and have been following WordPress forever and um have often reported uh sites that I found infringing on the WordPress trademark to the foundation like actually using WordPress in the domain or u pretending to be you know WordPress themsel or automatic themselves. So, I've always obviously have known about the trademark and I I really thought that this was a a nothing burger, but **[18:22]** it's the continuous continuous lesson of life of running a business that nothing is certain and um all this other stuff. So, if you go to WordPressfoundation.org trademark policy, all other WordPress related businesses or projects can use the WordPress name and logo to refer to and explain their services, but they cannot use them as part of a product, project, service, domain name, or company name. They cannot use them in a way that suggests an affiliation with or endorsement by the WordPress foundation or the WordPress open source project. For example, a consulting **[18:53]** company can describe its business as 123 web services offering WordPress consulting for small businesses but cannot call its business the WordPress consulting company. Similarly, a business related to WordPress themes can describe them itself as XYZ Z themes as the world's best WordPress themes but cannot call itself the WordPress theme portal. Other examples of terms to not use are hosted WordPress or manage WordPress hosting. Instead, use hosting for WordPress. **[19:24]** So, yeah, like that's the that's the policy. So if you are curious uh wordpressfoundation.org and then click on the trademarks link in the lefth hand side and you know consult a lawyer I guess but uh and and it's fine it it's it's whatever it's to me it's whatever like when this whole lawsuit thing happened I was also contacted to say you can't say WordPress news podcast **[19:54]** you're coming off as too official right okay you know uh news about WordPress podcast like it doesn't It doesn't matter to me that much. Now, if I was a web host or all this other stuff, like this is why you can tell like if you're a web host and a lot of this is, you know, millions of dollars, tens of millions of dollars, hundreds of millions of dollars, you can understand why this becomes quite the thorn in in a lot of sites or if you're big plug-in company or whatever. **[20:25]** >> I mean, I mean, I got a couple thoughts. I mean just like is is the term like I don't know like JavaScript like trademarked or no >> I don't I doubt I mean I doubt that I doubt >> like I mean >> JavaScript is trademarked but it's it's how you use it. Well, what I'm saying is just like any other example of like some sort of large similar platform like well even like web flow or something silly **[20:56]** like >> yeah I mean all are definitely trademarked it's just is it's how you can use them and so WordPress is saying or the foundation is saying like you can use them to describe stuff but you can't use them officially in the business. I I No, I get what you're saying and I don't want to rehash a whole that we went over like last year or whatever, but just just to kind of clear it up in my mind because we're talking about it here is like again like like web flow or something. >> Yeah. >> If you there's two things here. There's what is the reality and then there's is **[21:28]** is whatever the it's it's whatever the rules are and then it's like are the rules stupid or not like from a from a business point of view and like a marketing point of view and all this, right? So the question is like if you compare it to something like web flow okay obviously that term is definitely trademarked for sure but then there's rules around the trademark. So if you if you can say if you if they if web flow if you were a big web flow user and you and you made like a a thing called web flow news channel or something like **[21:59]** that then if they came after you for that if they didn't come after you for that then I feel like I don't know it's almost it's actually almost incomparable because WordPress is just so large and it's it's it's almost like it's almost became in some ways like one of those one of those words where Like you don't call you don't call tissues tissues anymore. You call them Kleenex, but really that's a brand. >> Yeah. >> So, uh yeah, it's I guess it's tough. I just still feel like it's not it's not **[22:30]** worth it though cuz I feel like the pros outweigh the cons because you could you could pretty much easily just figure out if something is official or not or you could you could kind of whatever. And the reason I'm thinking about this in my head is because like I I've never I remember when this was going down I changed a little bit of like my branding and stuff because I didn't want to be like annoyed by this. But like I have two obviously I'm not big enough but I have two uh courses like they're just playlists on my YouTube channel and the one's called WordPress data dynamic data fundamentals and the other one's called **[23:00]** custom WordPress client portal. And that's probably a not it probably shouldn't be doing that. Probably shouldn't be named that. Yeah, I mean I guess you always have to consult a lawyer and I guess everything in this case. This is why trademark lawsuits are so prickly and u time consuming as we've seen. Um you know so it's like consulting a lawyer, checking your favorite LLM for some basic guidance on things like that. I'm sure **[23:31]** anything can be debated. I I do I I am pretty sure that if you're using it in a non-commercial setting, um >> that's very that's very that's very blurry though. Like what does commercial mean? Like the actual thing is it is cost money or the or it it could lead to >> it could revenue I guess lead to commercial. So if I guess like it appears on my site which is commercially funded through sponsors um **[24:02]** having that course up there you know I guess theoretically is even though it's free even though I'm trying to help WordPress at the same time I'm also trying to sell sponsorship. >> Yeah. >> Um so there's that. >> So again it's it's a it's a two-parter for me. It's the fact that the one thing is like there's the rules, which we can't really argue about the rules because we don't make the rules. Okay, fine. Be nice to know the rules. And I feel like we kind of know the rules. So, we'll just leave that there. And then it's like do the rules than than the **[24:32]** analysis of the rules. Uh, does it make sense? Is it Do you think it's just an opinion piece at that point? Is it more pros, more cons, whatever? I think there's just way more cons to this because I I I don't I can't even imagine a world and I don't know all the details and maybe I would get some sort of politicized answer, but I can't even imagine the the the the the cons or the the the problems that this would have caused. I know we had the whole last year, but like I don't **[25:03]** even feel like that was the root cause of the issue. So, it's just like, yeah, we don't need to go all the way back and relive the whole thing, but the amount of people that are doing like good work and trying to put out things and are getting like caught in like the DM crossfire or whatever of like, oh, you can't use the word WordPress in the beginning, you have to use it at the end and then it just makes it sound look weird, etc., whatever. Um, and then just like always like, you know, you got small smaller creators and people like that like possibly looking over their **[25:33]** shoulder all the time at like what they can name stuff. It's just like it it stunts education. It stunts growth. It stunts content creation speed. It stunts everything. Like it's just it's it's just stupid. I don't know how I actually am curious now and and interested in seeing how like a web flow again as like one of the examples or Shopify or whatever like handles that. But like I'm sure there's people out there that are saying like Shopify tutorials, Shopify **[26:04]** agency, Shopify, whatever. And honest to God, I would assume that unless you are posing, like physically posing as Shopify or an official partner and you're lying about that. They don't care. Why would they? They want the promotion. They want the marketing. It's free marketing. Like why are we not seeing it in that regard? It's free marketing. Unless un There's a line for sure, but calling something Shopify blank, WordPress blank is not the line. **[26:35]** the the line is far past that. So >> well over rant over there but >> well I I mean I think you bring up the crux of the automatic versus WP Engine thing whereas >> you get somebody like WP Engine who is a high growth or was a high growth company backed by a massive uh private equity firm that you know has for all intents one of the better marketing and advertising and sponsorship and sales **[27:07]** teams. I mean, I I've pitched when I was at Pasley pitched against WP Engine all the time, big enterprise clients, like $50,000 a year and above, which isn't even big for enterprise, but it was big for enterprise hosting. And you would just get WP Engine would just come in and be like, "First year, $30,000." And the customer would just come back and like WP Engine is doing it for 30 grand. And I'll be like, "Well, we can't beat that." So there's nothing there's nothing I could do. They don't care. They take the loss. They're a big company. Got a loss leader. That's fine. So they're an aggressive company. And I **[27:37]** think that um I I don't even I don't even want to say aggressive. I I think that it is business. >> Yeah, for sure. >> And and I think part of the issue in the WordPress space has always been we've always felt like community uh I thought I talked about this or wrote a post about this about community um recently or at least it was on my mind. Like I feel like a lot of people were just like we're all in this together. this is all us, man. Uh, love you, you know, like, **[28:10]** love your product, love my product. We're not competing with each other. But really, at the end of the day, when the dust settles, we are. Uh, because ultimately, as there's more competition, more people doing things in WordPress, WordPress goes through its own growth challenges. People just have to be heads down, you know, like the gloves have to come off, I guess, when your business is in trouble. um or being uh being, you know, stressed out. So, I think a lot of people are going through this evolution now, like, oh, everything was great in **[28:41]** the WordPress community. But now, yeah, we just got to get to business, but we need to survive. Uh AI is here. So much competition's here. And I think that was the crux. The point of my rant there was like I think that was the crux of WP Engine versus Automatic is they saw Matt saw a highly competitive company. Maybe they were trying to go public. Who knows? and uh he saw an opportunity to attack them on on the trademark thing which is business. It's just not something that **[29:12]** we all really enjoyed because he steamrolled a lot of us um through the process and um nobody was really asking for it. So I think what you bring up is a whole issue of of what it's like hey who cares like we're all promoting the business. Yeah. until you're Matt and Automatic and some other company goes public first as a WordPress host and all of a sudden all the investors pay attention to them. They go, "Oh, this is this is the company about WordPress and they get all the money and all the **[29:42]** attention and Matt's going, "No, no, no, no, nope. It's us, actually." So, maybe it was to preempt anything like that. And maybe it still happens. I don't know. But yeah, everything's nice in the beginning until one is getting bigger than the other. And if you're the original one like Matt and Automatic was, you're like, "It's got to stay us," which I agree with. Um, just didn't agree how it was deployed. Um, so yeah, all of this stuff just sucks the energy out of the room. >> Yeah, it's muddy. Uh, I'm not going to **[30:14]** pretend that I fully understand it at the scale that it it is that it's at. Um, >> yeah. >> So, and maybe there maybe there's, you know, it's one of those situations where you don't there is no real right answer. There's no perfect answer. every somebody's going to get screwed over one way or the other. Um, just seems like a lot of the one thing that doesn't make sense and then we can kind of like put a pin in it is just like I don't know how to say this. It's at the scale at which the problem exists, **[30:46]** right? Like at that scale where it's almost like hard for us to wrap our minds around sort of in a way or not hard but like you know it's it's it's it's big numbers. It's big. It's big business for the most part, right? Like we're talking about going in public. We're talking about these things. The fact that there is still almost like a personal level of touch that is happening at like from the like at kind of like the highest level. The fact that like we're talking about that, but like then **[31:17]** you know Matt Mullen as an example is still kind of like active in the community space and stuff. It's very weird. You know what I mean? Like it's it's weird that like we're having these issues and there's kind of like that back and forth going on, the lawsuit stuff and all that, but still like there's just kind of like a weird personal piece to it. Not personal in the sense of like, you know, anything is personal, but like it's just like the fact that he he'll still like reply to **[31:47]** tweets and do all this stuff. like maybe that's like a good sign that he's still like in touch with some of the some of the people um or like a lot of the community. Um I don't know, just a just a just a weird weird situation cuz it's like kind of like fighting on behalf of the community in a way and like WordPress as like an open source project, but also there's just like a lot of like weird crossfire collateral damage type feeling to it. So yeah, I don't know. Yeah, it's **[32:18]** No, it's it's a it's definitely a growing up phase for WordPress across the board. So, >> Yep. >> No doubt. >> Dope course. New course. >> Yep. >> Exciting. >> Yep. >> Um wp.comcourses. It's got a new name a couple days in. And uh yeah, go check it out. If uh you work for a a WordPress agency or a product company, ask your boss to take it. It's free. Uh if you're a a WordPress, excuse me, a WordPress agency that is, you know, consulting with a client or especially like a a bigger **[32:49]** client, maybe they need a little help understanding what good hosting means. You can send them to the wpmin.com/courses as well. Get a little bit of education and more courses coming soon. little mini crash courses uh over the next uh month or so hopefully to round out the end of the year and um good things to come I hope in 2026 because we'll be here before you know it. >> Hell yeah. Anything else before we sign off? I think that's it. This is a really concise one rather than our **[33:22]** AI rabbit holes and everything. So, we should probably just wrap it up. >> Maybe we should just make this an AI podcast. Uh let me know what you think. Leave a comment below. Uh we can just focus on AI. We got been getting a lot more into um what uh Manis AI. Have you come across that one yet? >> Just the audio listeners. Mark just rolled his eyes and he was just like I can't believe there's another one. >> You you were up to your eyeballs in LLM and platforms. >> Here here's the quick the the I'm only **[33:53]** experimenting as I do and um what I found manis to do well. is if you if you've been using LLMs for a little while and you're like maybe heavy into chatgbt and and using projects and stuff like that in chat GPT and you're using it for like a lot of research stuff. I think Manis feels anyway like it ties that kind of like research thing into vibe coding at the same time and it will build like little Python like for for **[34:25]** instance if you're asking it to research things it'll build like Python scripts and it will like access content and analyze content and and have it ready for you to do more with it like build a little app kind of thing. And I was at testing that this weekend. I tweeted out uh the top 50 WordPress agencies, which I can we say that still? So the top 50 WordPress agencies, I I tweeted it out. So I did deep research on chat GPT in a in a project. I asked it to find **[34:58]** >> uh well first I asked find me the top 100 and it just said it couldn't do that much. So I said give me the top 50 in the US, UK, Australia, Canada. um with a million dollars plus in revenue, which I know it's not going to know the revenue, but I just put it in there in general with an active blog because I wanted it to be able to make sure it checked the site um and saw active blog posts so that it **[35:31]** was one indication to say that uh this is an active company because I'm sure it could find like other stuff and maybe the company doesn't exist anymore. So I wanted to use that as like the indicator that this was still an active company. So it built me the list of 50 agencies with all their social media and then I copy and I copy pasted that list into um claude >> turned it into JSON and then turned that into a little mini sortable app so that you could search for these um agencies **[36:04]** and stuff. So, just a cool little trick for like market research and um potential partners for the WP Minute. So, uh and I was testing that the whole point of that was I was testing that against Manis and I was just running out of free credits with Manis because it was like doing all instead of me doing that on two different platforms, Manis was doing that all in one. >> So, which Claude I guess Claude could do as well, but I like testing out new things. Manis Manis.im I am if you're **[36:35]** interested to check that out. Um, anything else, Mark, before we sign off? MGS.io. That's it from me. >> You're doing a live stream today? >> I am. As of recording this, yeah, in a half an hour with Andy Milligan. Um, part two last >> Web Flow guy. >> Yes, he has a Web Flow agency. Yeah, we talked uh a couple weeks back. We did a live stream on my channel talking about like Web Flow experience and a lot of stuff he was talking about. and I think we're going to do one on his channel today talking about kind of the WordPress stuff. So, kind of some of the things we talked about today, I think **[37:05]** we'll hit on in there to some degree. So, maybe for the WordPress experts or experts of WordPress, I don't know. Uh, not going to be extremely valuable, but might be an interesting concept to hear. Um, kind of like Andy's perspective and I think it'll be great for his audience. I think you really got to beat him up about >> CP custom fields, right? >> That's my thing. But I think they have a pretty good thing over there. I think that's not the worst part of it. **[37:37]** >> No, it's not the worst. But it is the worst in terms of pricing >> because it it does limit you to uh pricing on how many CMS items you have >> and how many CMS items you can store. uh at least the last time I checked the web flow pricing which was probably six months ago and then user access to that. So I think a lot of people who start to begin to build out those sites um also maybe have smallish teams or more teams to like input that data. So then Web **[38:09]** Flow boxes you in with um how many user accounts you can have per plan and then so there's that but they're almost you know similar in terms of like feature set. Uh but like the blog like the editing experience ain't no I mean like maybe the site building experience is better but like if you had somebody going in there to draft blog posts it's freaking terrible unless it's been updated. It's like these It's like you're writing blog posts in Adobe Photoshop. Like, who the hell wants to **[38:39]** do this? >> Yeah. Obviously, this is a huge topic, but just just to skim this real quick because I think this is the main point that I'm going to hit is and God, you know, God bless Andy, like he's he's he's killer. He's doing his thing. >> Yeah, he loves. >> But everybody but everybody in in Webflow, I mean, and you and this is this is just, you know, as an aside, like you can make money doing like anything and like you could just do good stuff like do good work. doesn't matter your platform to a degree like but like if we're talking like trying to be objective as possible about like WordPress an interesting an one interesting thing that was that came up **[39:11]** Andy sent me a like an agenda right and I think he was like you know putting in a bunch of different things possibly into chatbt and like and also like you know it's it was punching out a bunch of stuff of like web flow versus word WordPress and what's interesting about WordPress and I'm probably not telling anybody that's listening something that they don't know. But one thing that's interesting about WordPress is it does have cons, right? The platform of WordPress has cons. If you go into Gro Chat or whatever and be like, "What are the cons of using a **[39:42]** WordPress website?" It's going to tell you some But the interesting thing about WordPress is that the cons are avoidable. Like, you know what I mean? Like the cons are avoidable, especially once you get to a point where you understand WordPress and you understand how it works and you understand the idea of like hosting like again like the hosting course to tie back to that like what's good hosting, what's bad hosting, what's going to make you rip your hair out, what's going to be be fast, uh based on your project and all that. Uh things **[40:12]** like plug-in bloat are like one of the the cons that are often cited in WordPress. I've like literally never had that issue because I don't do that. You know what I mean? Right. >> But like there could be a con of Web Flow which is like oh it doesn't do something that's not avoidable. >> It's like it's it's if it doesn't do it it you can't make it do it unless there's something that I don't know about like some you have to create it yourself. That's way different than just adapting. I feel like the cons of **[40:43]** WordPress are often mitigable by knowledge and workflow. I feel like the the cons of like other SAS platforms and things like that that are just less mature and just like more, you know, more locked down or whatever, they're they're only mitigatable by possibly like physically adding more stuff to it like in the terms of a of an add-on or some sort of plugin or whatever they call it maybe, you know. So, uh, I don't know, just one motif that I found there that I think **[41:14]** that, uh, I'll try to hit on a little bit. See what see what, um, see what Andy in the chat has to say. >> Grock says, "Limited, what are the cons of using WordPress?" I asked, "Limited customization for complex sites, which is >> I think the positive of of WordPress." So, okay, Grock, uh, I'm glad everyone's getting trillions of dollars for AI. Performance can be slow without optimization. True. Security vulnerabilities if not updated like everything else. Plug-in conflicts and compatibility issues. Okay. Yeah. Like just if you were building some if you **[41:45]** were freaking fixing your leaky faucet and you were putting the wrong pipes together. Yes. Conflicts. >> Uh steep learning curve for advanced uh features. Agreed. Um hosting and maintenance costs can add up. Yes. But so does everything else. >> And uh bloated code with some themes and plugins. Once again, make the right decisions and um you don't have to worry about that stuff. That's the episode today. Hey, thanks for hanging out today, Mark.