Useful  🔗 **Source:** [Useful](https://share.snipd.com/episode/1853d4d6-0e48-420b-9904-9fbe603a7d98) ## Highlights - **Documentary Felt Like Recruitment Marketing** - The Code for the People film reads more like company recruitment marketing than an independent documentary. - Luke and Jonathan note high production value and familiar faces, but say it blurs Automatic's identity with WordPress and feels promotional. Transcript: Luke What did you think of it? I mean, I think I just said what I think of it. Yeah, you did. Jonathan I mean, don't call it a documentary. It's documentary style, but it's completely just automaticians talking about how good automatic is, really. Luke So, okay. Jonathan If it's not an ad, maybe you could call it like a recruitment marketing style thing. Luke Yeah, okay. What did you think of it? So, good production value. It was nice to see. A lot of familiar faces. Yes. I mean, relative to what other documentaries have you seen come out of the immediate sort of WordPress ecosystem? Jonathan No. I mean, there is no, as far as I know, you know, but relative to documentaries, the production value was like YouTube video level, you know? That was fine. That was higher than that. Luke There was some on-location filming that was done. Like, I don't know what YouTubes you're watching, but a lot of what I've seen is like definitely lower quality bar than that. ([Time 0:00:08](https://share.snipd.com/snip/8ac9c1e1-2b43-48ee-8fd1-95f4cd0d625e)) - **Film Deepened Confusion Over Who Is WordPress** - The film amplifies confusion about who represents WordPress by centering Automatic employees. - Luke worries the line between Automatic and WordPress becomes blurred, reinforcing the WP Engine lawsuit subtext. Transcript: Luke Yeah. So there were some great things in it. And looking at the website that they use to accompany it, there are some great open source projects. Many things not WordPress are mentioned, right? And there's this general effort in sort of the web positioning of it to use it as advocacy for the broader open web. The challenge that I found, and again, a lot of like great familiar faces going through it. Oh, it's cool to see this person talking about this and that. The line between automatic and WordPress I found to be even like more blurred within the context of this. And now it's this higher production value where yeah i like and at one point the way that matt described automatic is that we it was i'm paraphrasing but this idea that we take the wordpress Software and make it radically accessible so that was one sort of point of of uh, supposed like clarity about automatic's relationship with this. But as I listened to some of the other folks earlier, I found that that line was pretty blurry. If I was coming from the outside, it's very much like what's not obvious perhaps, unless I'm mistaken, the majority of, if not everyone featured was an automatician. Jonathan Yeah. And, and yeah, I think it was everyone. And because of that, the lawsuit just sort of hangs over all of this. ([Time 0:02:41](https://share.snipd.com/snip/39a8c07e-0f2f-4a47-b56c-6986ef6e9cf1)) - **Good Advice But Unclear Impact** - The film promotes open web actions like using open-source and owning domains, but impact is uncertain. - Luke notes the accompanying site lists practical steps, yet YouTube views alone don't guarantee behavior change. Transcript: Luke There was one point where matt was talking about open source as something that's valuable and how you have to take care of it and it was hard for me to not hear like an a a criticism of wp engine Like built into that he didn't say anything about that there was nothing that could have been like there was no explicit reference to the people who like don't invest. But this idea that like everyone's got to do it. And then just recalling the actual facts of like how it went about and the feelings of being strong armed and having seen some of the communications. It's yeah, I don't I don't know. It's I'm curious to see what the impact of something like this will be. The idea seems to be when you go to the site, it lists the five things, and the one thing is like it's asking people to use open source stuff, like get your own domain. These are things that I agree with. This is great stuff. Yeah, 100%. Will it move the needle on that? ([Time 0:05:17](https://share.snipd.com/snip/51f06b23-8eb2-4ab8-a49f-2934ac0910b8)) - **Agency Acquisition Footnote Sparked Curiosity** - Luke remembers Code for the People referencing an agency Code for the People that Automatic acquired years ago. - He noticed the film's website footnote linking to the agency acquisition page, which raised curiosity about the project's history. Transcript: Luke I noticed the for the people. And then, of course, you can't forget. The first thing that I actually remember is that there was an agency called Code for the People back in the day that was acquired by Automatic. And it was interesting to note at the bottom of the website that there was a footnote about the agency. And it linked to their acquisition page from that's been there for years now. So it was a, it made me curious about what was going on behind the scenes. ([Time 0:07:20](https://share.snipd.com/snip/7d3c10d0-1aba-4964-95f8-c2bae47bd757)) - **WordPress Community Weight Is Shifting To India** - Jonathan says the core of WordPress now feels centered in India due to active participation and numerous Indian names in Slack. - He points to large regional events like WordCamp Asia and a new India flagship as evidence of shifting community weight. Transcript: Jonathan Although a lot of the visibility of WordPress is US-based, I really have mentally shifted in terms of where I think the main, what's the right word for this? I'm sorry, I'm struggling, but the core of WordPress, the weight seems to rest in India. That's where I think WordPress lives now in India. How do you measure that in your head? Yeah, how do I measure it? I've been just noticing a lot of Indian names in Slack, I guess, is part of it. I think the community is quite active. Exactly. It's a far more active community there. And we've seen it, you know, obviously, any WordCamp Asia has had a lot of Indian presence. And then also, now there is another WordCamp. ([Time 0:07:50](https://share.snipd.com/snip/bdc9de58-e606-48b6-9bdf-652e1deb101a)) - **WordCamp US Attendance Is Declining** - WordCamp U.S. attendance is tracking below historical expectations, possibly due to broader factors beyond WordPress itself. - Luke and Jonathan debate causes: geopolitical concerns, timing (Phoenix in August), and wider perception of the project. Transcript: Luke Speaking of the u.s and flagships it sounds like WordCamp U.S. Is tracking below expectations. Again. Again. Jonathan I'm sure it'll be great just like it was last time. Luke Right. It was great last time, wasn't it? It was good. Yeah, I enjoyed it. But I guess it depends on how you're measuring what grade is and what you're expecting going into it. It's definitely not it's definitely a decline over what it's been historically. It's hard to say how much of this particular one is connected to folks not wanting to come to the U.S. For a mix of different reasons. Yeah. It's hard to say how much of it's connected to feelings about what's kind of going on in the space right now? Is it a wider representation of a decline in WordPress? Or is it connected to the fact that it's Phoenix in August, which isn't really, you know, we're not known in the U.S. For that being a great time to visit. If you say so. Jonathan All right. Luke It's very hot. You would notice if you showed up at that time. But I am looking forward to going. ([Time 0:09:13](https://share.snipd.com/snip/34c2e9b3-99e8-4ec2-a378-c49bfbc9a3a8)) - **Make Five New Connections At WordCamp** - Try to make five new connections at WordCamp rather than only seeing familiar faces. - Jonathan challenges long-time attendees to introduce newcomers and grow the community beyond old-timers. Transcript: Jonathan That's what people always say about a WordCamp. But I want to challenge you with this. See if, my challenge to you is try to make five new connections, right? People who next time you will go and consider them a familiar face and introduce them to the community. Maybe people who haven't been part of the community yet or who are eager. And I think that that's an important consideration for us old timers who go to WordCamp to see old friends. Well, we need to make sure the community keeps growing, right? So, and there is like a aging out sort of problem as well, except for the fact that the community in India is really growing. But yeah, so there you go. What do you think? Do you reckon you can do that? I will make that a priority. Luke It's actually one of the things I do enjoy is meeting folks who are coming for the first time. ([Time 0:10:30](https://share.snipd.com/snip/81cfda16-878e-4588-b394-1cfff7c3fb9f)) - **Challenge To Make Five New Connections At WordCamp** - Jonathan challenges Luke to make five new connections at WordCamp so those newcomers become familiar faces for future events. - The point is to keep the community growing and avoid an “aging out” problem despite growth in regions like India. - Luke enjoys meeting first-timers and reminisces about local meetups where people brought basic WordPress questions. - He feels a bit disconnected from local meetups now and wonders whether they’re still active. - The conversation pivots into community values and whether talks like Andrew Middleton’s still apply to WordPress today. Transcript: Jonathan That's what people always say about a WordCamp. But I want to challenge you with this. See if, my challenge to you is try to make five new connections, right? People who next time you will go and consider them a familiar face and introduce them to the community. Maybe people who haven't been part of the community yet or who are eager. And I think that that's an important consideration for us old timers who go to WordCamp to see old friends. Well, we need to make sure the community keeps growing, right? So, and there is like a aging out sort of problem as well, except for the fact that the community in India is really growing. But yeah, so there you go. What do you think? Do you reckon you can do that? I will make that a priority. Luke It's actually one of the things I do enjoy is meeting folks who are coming for the first time. So, um, and this is also making me think one of the things I just, I used to thoroughly enjoy was doing just the local WordPress meetup. And, uh, it, part of what I enjoyed about that is it, like we would just be talking about basic usage of WordPress. I would do a little like a news segment and things like that just because I enjoyed it. But it was really people showing up with WordPress questions. And yeah, I'm curious. I'm feeling kind of disconnected from that now. Are the meetups still an active thing? I don't know. Jonathan Do you think the WordPress community has values? Yes. What would you say some of the values of WordPress as a platform are? Luke Oh, man. So Andrew Middleton did a fantastic talk on this back at WordCamp Long Beach, which is the first place I gave a talk. What, 10 years ago? ([Time 0:10:30](https://share.snipd.com/snip/720d1c4e-f133-4703-8d4e-295dae8e32ec)) - **Make Five New Connections At WordCamp** - Jonathan challenges long-time attendees to intentionally make five new connections at WordCamp so those people become familiar faces in future events. - The goal is to grow the community and avoid an echo chamber of only seeing old friends. - Luke agrees to prioritize meeting newcomers and recalls enjoying local meetups where people brought concrete WordPress questions. - They link this tactic to combating an aging-out problem and supporting community growth outside the U.S., especially given rising participation in India. - Framing networking as an explicit, small goal (five people) makes community-building actionable and repeatable. Transcript: Jonathan But yeah, so there you go. What do you think? Do you reckon you can do that? I will make that a priority. Luke It's actually one of the things I do enjoy is meeting folks who are coming for the first time. So, um, and this is also making me think one of the things I just, I used to thoroughly enjoy was doing just the local WordPress meetup. And, uh, it, part of what I enjoyed about that is it, like we would just be talking about basic usage of WordPress. I would do a little like a news segment and things like that just because I enjoyed it. But it was really people showing up with WordPress questions. And yeah, I'm curious. I'm feeling kind of disconnected from that now. Are the meetups still an active thing? I don't know. Jonathan Do you think the WordPress community has values? ([Time 0:11:13](https://share.snipd.com/snip/5f2e022e-9bb5-4ce6-ba36-49abb0fae4e5)) - **Missing Local Meetups And Basic Q&A** - Luke fondly recalls running local WordPress meetups where attendees brought basic WordPress questions and he did a news segment. - He misses that direct, helpful interaction and wonders whether meetups remain active. Transcript: Luke And, uh, it, part of what I enjoyed about that is it, like we would just be talking about basic usage of WordPress. I would do a little like a news segment and things like that just because I enjoyed it. But it was really people showing up with WordPress questions. And yeah, I'm curious. I'm feeling kind of disconnected from that now. ([Time 0:11:31](https://share.snipd.com/snip/3fe01af7-1c2d-4f6d-bf04-8f9ec4447197)) - **WordPress Values Are Inherent Not Invented** - Jonathan asks whether the WordPress community has values and prompts Luke to define them, shifting the conversation from meetups to principles. - Luke cites Andrew Middleton’s Long Beach talk as formative and frames values as inherent rather than something you can simply declare. - He implies values persist over time and questions whether the community’s historical values remain relevant today. - The exchange connects community practices (meetups, making new connections) to deeper, enduring values behind the platform. - This reframes community health: attendance trends matter, but underlying values determine long-term cohesion. Transcript: Jonathan Do you think the WordPress community has values? Yes. What would you say some of the values of WordPress as a platform are? Luke Oh, man. So Andrew Middleton did a fantastic talk on this back at WordCamp Long Beach, ([Time 0:11:51](https://share.snipd.com/snip/c7b1b043-b497-4137-9540-9a4f92934af0)) - **WordPress Values Favor Impact Over Pure Tech** - WordPress values discussed include skepticism of authority and prioritizing utility and impact over pure technical improvement. - Jonathan contrasts Linus Torvalds' 'technology-first' stance with WordPress' broader concern about real-world impact and ease of use. Transcript: Jonathan Do you think the WordPress community has values? Yes. What would you say some of the values of WordPress as a platform are? Luke Oh, man. So Andrew Middleton did a fantastic talk on this back at WordCamp Long Beach, which is the first place I gave a talk. What, 10 years ago? Yeah, it's been some time. And are those values still relevant? So the main thing that she talked about that I hold true to this day is that values are something that's – they're inherent. You can't just – they're there. Like if you do a good job of studying and asking questions and paying attention, you can extrapolate them and sort of – but they're there. So one of them, for instance, this isn't, I don't know if this is the word that she used or not, but there's like distrust was one of the values where there's a skepticism. I think skepticism was her word of, of authority and of change of like processes, et cetera. And if you, and you recognize that that's just one of them. Another one was like utility, like things have to be useful to to be here you see the useful pushback right uh no useful is is a really interesting word because i where i'm going with this Jonathan Is uh linus torvalds you know recently you know he's the maintainer of of linux linux and he recently said is he not a benevolent dictator of Linux? Yeah, yeah, he is a benevolent dictator for life. And he recently said in the community that we're having a discussion about AI and the use of AI. And there was some pushback against using AI, as it tends to be all over the place at the moment. And he said, no, AI is useful. And the only thing we care about is making the technology better. So if AI helps us improve the technology, and that made me reflect on values, because I don't think that WordPress is like that, right? I think WordPress cares about the impact that it has in the world, not just making the technology better. Luke Do you know what I mean? Yeah. Well, it's interesting. We had an episode that we recently did with a guest where we were talking about what's actually valued in WordPress, right? Like how do you measure whether it's successful or not? And the idea of speed, security, and ease of use, I think. Was that the third thing? Yeah, that's right. Yes. And it does seem that those aren't, at least to my view as an outsider, it doesn't seem like those are the top priority anymore. It's like how do we bring along this? And I'm sure, I'm sure that that, I'm sure there's people who are thinking about that, but that's certainly not what's being, bubbling to the surface right now. Yeah. Jonathan It's about how we make decisions. And in this case, the decision was made purely on practical, is the technology getting better? ([Time 0:11:51](https://share.snipd.com/snip/8fc3541f-119a-4651-811b-1834877966f6))