Vancepocalypse Now  🔗 **Source:** [Vancepocalypse Now](https://share.snipd.com/episode/5c8bb0c8-3921-4305-9fa7-7adecd5c0402) ## Highlights - **Vance Carries Evangelical End Times Fears Into Catholicism** - JD Vance’s end-times interest began with the John Hagee Prophecy Study Bible and includes suspicion that the Antichrist may already be present. - His Catholic conversion appears to temper, but not eliminate, that evangelical apocalyptic outlook. Transcript: Dan Beecher But J.D. Vance, at one point, started talking about being fascinated by end times prophecy and theology. And just saying, he mentioned that the first Bible that he ever got was the John Hagee Prophecy Study Bible. I don't know if you've dived into that piece of work. Dan McClellan That's a piece of literature that is in my TBR pile, which is entirely a lie. I will never even look at it. TBR stands for to be rejected yes to be recycled um yes uh no i i have no intention of of looking at a john haegee prophecy study bible but yeah he seemed to be he seemed to to the the idea of The antichrist seemed to have gained some purchase in his conscience starting at a fairly young age. And didn't he say something along the lines of he wouldn't be surprised if the Antichrist were already walking among us or something spooky like that? But he also, and as you pointed out when we were talking about doing this segment, to be fair, qualified an awful lot of this. Dan Beecher Which was actually refreshing, and I'm mad that you made me watch a thing where I was like, yeah, but now we've got to be fair to Vance because he doesn't say the thing that a lot of Christians, That we hear a lot of Christians say. Maybe it's the Catholic thing. Maybe him converting to Catholicism, like sort of took it down a notch or two for him. Dan McClellan But I think at the same time, it kind of shows that he's, I don't think he's fully, I don't think he's fully aware of or fully invested in what Catholicism is really, Catholicism's relationship To end times, the eschaton, because they actually have a pretty clear prohibition on trying to escalate, to catalyze the end times. And there's even, I think there's a catechism, and folks who are Catholic or know the catechism a lot better than me are going to know this far better than I do. But I thought there was a catechism that said something along the lines of, we should never allow our anticipation of the end times get in the way of trying to make the world we live in now A better place right which which kind of says you have a priority yeah it is it is making the world a better and i think that that is a very useful thing to have because as we have seen and as Dan Beecher We are going to talk about there are people who don't view it that way now oh yeah vance in this interview did say do i think that we're in the end times this is a quote. I don't know. And I think it's probably bad for me spiritually to focus too much on it. ([Time 0:07:06](https://share.snipd.com/snip/dd7352b2-a856-4fd8-ad9a-ab4ac37a2b18)) - **Algorithms Turn Climate Disasters Into Prophecy Bait** - Social media turns disasters into prophecy content, while cameras and algorithms make catastrophe feel more frequent and immediate. - The hosts connect Nepal’s flooding and the drying Euphrates to climate change, not divine countdowns. Transcript: Dan McClellan Well, I, we, we recently had the, uh, the flooding in Nepal, which was just a, uh, just bonkers weatherish climate events where you had melting snow and a glacier collapsed and fell like A kilometer into a very narrow, steep valley and just sent hundreds of millions of, of gallons, tons of debris and stuff. And water, just scraping a bunch of habitations just right off the. Dan Beecher Yeah, it was, it was devastating. I've seen you know i'm used to seeing flash flood footage because it happens here all the time because we live in a desert with lots of canyons and you know water feeds water and whatever But that's that's nothing like anything we've ever seen it was apocalyptic yeah it was it was devastating and uh and horrifying yeah and um but i i videos. Dan McClellan People were making videos like, it's the end times. This is it, people. We got to make sure we're right with Jesus. I was like, hey, don't exploit that kind of horrific tragedy for some clicks and some digital pats on the butt. And climate change is definitely involved in what happened here. It might not have been the proximate cause, but it was definitely a factor in this happening. Dan Beecher And so this is not well have been the proximate cause at this point. Dan McClellan It could have been. Yeah. Who knows? But, you know, at this point, it's not that Jesus is making things worse because he's about to return. We're making things worse because we are refusing to take these things seriously. Right. And so this is really on us. But I've seen a lot of that kind of stuff. Dan Beecher You guys need to be paying attention because Jesus is coming. And this, of course, this happens with every major world, you know, every time there's a major earthquake somewhere. And really, unfortunately, we live in the convergence of a few things that make this much worse. A, everybody's got a camera. So everything is being videotaped. So we're we're we're we're faced with the visuals of it it's not just we're not just reading about it in our newspaper and if you didn't read the paper you don't even know right we're seeing Videos come in from all over the place of everything if there's you know if there's an earthquake in Nicaragua if there's a whatever over here or over there we're seeing it and at the same Time as you say, global warming's happening. You know what I mean? Climate change is real. And so we're actually causing a bunch of major, like, catastrophic weather phenomena as well. Dan McClellan Yeah. And now we've got three hurricanes making their way across the Pacific Ocean because of El Nino. Fun. As we learned from Chris Farley a long time ago means the Nino. Dan Beecher It is Spanish for the Nino. Dan McClellan It's true. Yes. And, you know, we're all on social, not all of us, a lot of us are on social media and the Algo Daddy is feeding us all the stuff that we pause on. And so we're being made to feel like there's an increase in the occurrence of these kinds of things. Dan Beecher And lest people think, I do want to say, lest people think that we're just talking about a few crackpots going, oh, it's the end times. No, like Adventist Angels Watchmen Radio, I don't know, that's website. They had an article called Prophetic News Analysis. Nepal's Devastating Flood Wave. A Call to Prepare. And, you know, there's a group called Rapture Ready that's a long-running prophecy website. And they had a thing called... Yeah they they talked about the nepal death toll rising and and basically it you know they they're seeing it as a as something to uh as a sign yeah and you know if you what was it 2021 2022 Dan McClellan The euphrates river water levels were getting incredibly low. And so you had all these misinformed people, maybe, is how I'll say it, talking about how this is all in the book of Revelation, that the great river will dry up and make way for the armies Of the east. And when the river dries up, the four angels that are trapped or that are imprisoned underneath the Euphrates River will be freed to go destroy one third of humanity. And oh my gosh. And people are like giddy about it. The people on social media are making a lot of hay off of freaking people out about horrifying natural disasters and climate emergencies that are taking lives on the other side of the Planet, about whom the people who are spreading this stuff could not care less. ([Time 0:10:43](https://share.snipd.com/snip/d09f9ed3-edbf-4645-9d7b-eaba7c7a54bc)) - **Matthew 24 Points Toward A First Century Expectation** - Matthew 24 uses Hebrew Bible imagery and appears to place Jesus’s promised return within the lifetime of some listeners. - Reading it as an imminent future prediction can encourage dangerous efforts to accelerate the end. Transcript: Dan Beecher But then I kept seeing Matthew 24 come up. And I think that that's actually pretty interesting because I hadn't realized that in the Gospels themselves, there's also stuff that's interesting. Now, you know, it's talking about signs of, you know, the sort of end times kind of thing, that the signs of the age, the end of the age. And it's, you know, it's Jesus talking and saying, you know, when he'll come back, essentially. Dan McClellan Right, second coming. Dan Beecher And he says, you know, and he talks about persecutions and he talks about lawlessness. And then he talks, but he does talk about, he quotes Daniel, I guess, and says, so when you see the desolating sacrilege spoken of by the prophet Daniel standing in the holy place, let Your reader understand, then those in Judea must flee to the mountains. The one on the housetops must, a housetop must not go down to take things from the house, blah, blah, blah. And I just, but then, you know, it does have a whole bunch of stuff about when the son of man is coming, they, you know, it, the sun will be darkened and the moon will not give its light. The stars will fall from the heaven and the powers of heaven will be shaken. Yes. And I think that that is, you know, I think they're quoting from Ghostbusters in that part. Dan McClellan Or Ghostbusters could be kind of riffing on the Bible. What? Yeah, that doesn't sound right. You have that in like Joel and Isaiah and Ezekiel and stuff like that. So, yeah, it's kind of a common motif. Right. Dan Beecher And I think that's what, but this is what they're looking for, right? Are the, this is the things that they, that, that these people like JD Vance are looking for and, and sort of delighting in because the, the, the end goal for a lot of the, the end times people For a lot of the, the, the people who are focused on the rapture or the eschaton or whatever, they want Jesus, the second coming, to occur. And that's understandable. That's kind of the main event of the Bible, I guess, at least of the New Testament. So it makes a logical sense. There's a certain sense that it makes to say, I want that to happen as quickly as possible. It's been 2000 years. I want it to happen. How do we, what do we do to make it happen? And that leads people down some very dark roads. ([Time 0:17:00](https://share.snipd.com/snip/97230485-04f4-450f-94f4-7c93520d48c8)) - **Vance’s Willingness To Hasten The End Alarms The Hosts** - Vance says he is willing to accept the end times if doing God’s work brings them about, even while allowing that they may be thousands of years away. - The hosts find the possibility that political action could intentionally hasten apocalypse deeply disturbing. Transcript: Dan McClellan And, uh, and now, um, yeah, he thinks end times are coming that he wouldn't be surprised if the antichrist was walking among us. Uh, he says he's, he puts his odds at getting into heaven at 75%. But he also says that he's focused on doing the work, doing God's work. And if that brings about the end times, he's okay with that. Dan Beecher Yeah, that was it. I finally found it just as you were saying it. So yes, that is pretty shocking. Yeah. Mean, again, I understand that sentiment from the perspective of, you know, if you believe that Jesus is coming and that that is inevitable and that that is what brings about the glory Of the world at some point or whatever. If you believe that revelation was talking about something literal or whatever, then yeah, you want it to happen. Like, yeah, we, you were promised a second coming. When is it happening? But the thought that he's saying, if my actions, me lead to the end times, the thought that that's even in his head, that he could take actions that leads to the end times is shocking and Very scary. Dan McClellan Yeah. It is, is rather disturbing. Yeah. And, and the whole thing, like a lot of the folks who are so excited about this are folks who are promoting ideologies and policymaking and things like that that are directly responsible For causing more inequity, more instability, for causing a lot of socioeconomic problems, a lot of geopolitical problems. The war in Iran, the dumbest war and a long string of dumb wars. Yeah. That we, if we will be lucky to call this war a wash, we will be lucky to just get back to the way things were before we started the war. Yeah. And that's just ignoring the lives and the money and the harm to the economy. We will be lucky to get back to the point where we were when Donald Trump decided to start a war. But a lot of people think Iran is a major player in what's going to happen. Oh, yeah. They do talk about that all the time. Yeah. It's Iran. It's Russia. It's China. Because the prophecies in Ezekiel that are about entirely different people groups occupying entirely different territories obviously has to correlate to some political entity That exists today. And so that's got a lot of people excited as well. But yeah. Dan Beecher Well, so in fairness to Vance, I am going to finish the quote because he says, he says, he says, what I'm trying to, as you said, what I'm trying to focus on is doing as much of God's work as Possible right now. And if that leads to the end times, okay. And if that leads to, you know, us building a better world that thrives and survives for a very long time after I'm gone, that's great too. Now, A, and then he goes on to say the end times may be coming. In fact, they are coming. ([Time 0:27:28](https://share.snipd.com/snip/8ef797f8-1a68-470e-ab15-a94abad0d9a7)) - **Let Apocalyptic Hope Strengthen Present Responsibility** - Treat expectation of a future renewed world as motivation to improve the present one, not as permission to neglect it. - Catholic teaching cited here says anticipation of Christ’s return should stimulate concern for cultivating Earth. Transcript: Dan McClellan So I just wanted to read this from Pope John Paul VI on December 7th, 1965. A very long, this is chapter three in a very long text. But this paragraph says, therefore, while we are warned that it profits a man nothing if he gain the whole world and lose himself, the expectation of a new earth must not weaken but rather Stimulate our concern for cultivating this one. For here grows the body of a new human family, a body which even now is able to give some kind of foreshadowing of the new age. Hence, while earthly progress must be carefully distinguished from the growth of Christ's kingdom, to the extent that the former, it doesn't matter. We can only expect these things to be fixed when Christ or we don't have to fix the environment. Christ is coming like that. I don't know if, if Vance signs off on all that kind of stuff, but it would seem that the official position of the church to which he now belongs is don't do that. And yeah, I think he, but he's, he's, he's gone up against the pope several times already he killed that one yeah yeah he's he said a lot of stuff when the when the pope has to issue a ([Time 0:32:01](https://share.snipd.com/snip/9e4113eb-03ef-4d2c-8265-d37e99912260)) - **Paul’s Spiritual Gifts Are Not A Ranking System** - In 1 Corinthians 12–14, Paul addresses competition and conflict rather than presenting spiritual gifts as prizes. - Different abilities serve one body, so diversity does not establish a hierarchy. Transcript: Dan McClellan Is 1 Corinthians chapter 12. Dan Beecher Is that correct? Dan McClellan That is correct. Chapter 12 through 14 is a long discourse about the gifts of the Spirit. But we actually have a few different places in the New Testament where we rattle off different degrees of gifts of the Spirit. We also have Romans 12. We have a few verses in there. Ephesians 4. Not Paul, most likely. Somebody else. And we'll get to how the gifts are slightly different there. 1 Peter 4. And then to the degree that we want to use the tongues thing as a gift of the Spirit discussion, then Acts chapter 2. Dan Beecher We should probably do a whole thing on the gift of tongues if we haven't already, because that just seems like it's a... But it's part of this whole thing, so yeah, I think we need to include it. The gifts of the Spirit that are listed according to 1 Corinthians, and 1 Corinthians is Paul, yes? Dan McClellan Yes, yes. 1 Corinthians is definitely Paul. Dan Beecher Okay, so basically what he's doing is he's writing to the people of Corinth. And he is saying there's all these cool things that come with it. It's basically like Patreon bonuses that you get when you sign up to be a Christian. Or rather, when you get, when the spirit favors you. Maybe we should just, I guess it seemed obvious to me, but suddenly it might not be obvious. Dan McClellan The spirit, what are we talking about is that the holy ghost is that yeah well yeah it's supposed to be but um the gifts of the spirit well in in first corinthians 12 1 he says uh which which Doesn't actually include the word gifts he just says, now concerning the spirituals or the spiritual things, that which is spiritual. And he goes off, and it's actually interesting if you read it in context and you read it carefully, there's kind of an argument that Paul is developing, which is not, look how cool the Gifts are. It's actually, shut up about all of this and and get along because what he's what he's trying to say is is kind of there there's a lot of contention there's a lot of um it seems like there's There's a lot of tension in the church and what he's basically saying is hey we all have different things that we bring to the table. And these are the things he's talking about as the gifts of the spirit. And there's diversity, but diversity does not imply hierarchy. So he's kind of taking a separate but equal approach to these different spiritual gifts. But then he goes on to say that this is not competition. This is not a hierarchy. You're all different parts of the same body and you all have your different functions. So quit bickering because the head cannot say to the hand, I have no need of you or words to that effect. I don't remember exactly what he says, but he's basically making the case that, hey, we need everyone with their various gifts to contribute to the greater good of the congregation, Of the community, of the people. And so it's not, look how cool I am. It's what do I bring to the table? How can I make things better? How can I benefit the people who lack my gift? Dan Beecher Right. Dan McClellan So he's actually kind of trying to calm some unrest. ([Time 0:34:20](https://share.snipd.com/snip/4dccba97-93e7-4a43-8e3a-746e31677d50)) - **Spiritual Gifts Are Not Biblical Leveling Up** - Spiritual gifts do not accumulate through personal advancement like levels in Dungeons & Dragons. - Each person receives different abilities, which function together for the community’s benefit. Transcript: Dan Beecher Thought was interesting is I just just that part, the part that you're talking about. When I have thought of the gifts of the spirit, the image in my mind, and I don't know where this came from, whether this came from just sort of like being in church or hearing people talk About it or whatever. It certainly didn't come from reading the Bible because I didn't do a lot of that. But the image that I always had was there was this list of gifts of the spirit, wisdom, knowledge, faith, healing, miracles, powerful deeds, prophecy. And my sense was that if you just sort of advanced spirituality far enough it was like you know a game of dnd you know you got you level up and then you you get another gift and like the more You level up the more of these gifts you sort of accrue to yourself and reading uh corinthians it's like it's not that at all it's like look this guy has wisdom and that person has knowledge And this person has that. And you don't get all of them. This isn't that. It's not like everyone can have access to all of these things if they are spiritual enough. That's not the idea here at all. It's a little more like in Kanto. Dan McClellan It's like you, you get to, you open the magic door and bam, you have super strength or you can hear everything or, um, and, and it's all contributing to the betterment of, of the group. ([Time 0:38:40](https://share.snipd.com/snip/07f0b4a1-e2df-4df9-b001-28f365d3b441)) - **Paul Counts Celibacy As A Spiritual Gift** - Paul calls celibacy a charisma in 1 Corinthians 7, using the same gift language found in his later spiritual-gifts discussion. - The hosts jokingly reinterpret it as supernatural sexiness before returning to Paul’s likely meaning. Transcript: Dan McClellan We actually got to go back to 1 Corinthians 7 for this thing that is referred to as a gift. And it's in verse 7. And here's where Paul is talking about celibacy. And he says, I wish that all were as I myself am, but each has a particular gift from God, one having one kind and another, a different kind. So I think we got to add, we got to add the discipline to be celibate as one of the gifts. Yeah. And he uses, I'm pretty sure he uses charisma. Charisma. Yeah. Is that the word there? Yeah. Charisma. He uses the exact same word that he uses later on. Gift. Oh, okay. So here's my question though. Dan Beecher Could that not be interpreted as, look, I wish everybody was like me, but some dudes got the gift, and they're going to be getting out. They just are too good for the ladies. They got the charisma. And so their gift is making other people, is sexiness. Dan McClellan The spiritual gift sexiness. If you've seen Magic Mike, I think, is it the second one where one of the guys is too gifted to the degree that it's a problem? Okay. And that he has to find the right person who can accommodate his giftiness. Dan Beecher I'm surprised at your familiarity with the Magic Mike franchise. Dan McClellan I have more knowledge of things than— It's not just the Avengers? All right. I have approximate knowledge of many things. Yes, indeed. Which itself is me making reference to another piece of pop culture. But yeah, so I don't think Paul's aimed at that idea of gifting. Dan Beecher No, no. I like the idea of celibacy being a gift of the spirit. Yeah, yeah. Dan McClellan And that's what he's saying. Not everybody can hack it. Yeah. Because not everyone is blessed with my whateverness with being an being ace uh yeah yeah um and and you know there there's a there's an argument to make that that maybe that's what paul Was was really on that's what that's uh that was his bag yeah uh or or maybe he just i don't know had something that didn't he couldn't really find a place for and was like, I guess I'm just Not going to do anything. ([Time 0:40:30](https://share.snipd.com/snip/cca267c1-594c-4f66-977b-d4cb6e5658c0)) - **Church Roles Hardened From Gifts Into Offices** - Early communities appear to have recognized people’s abilities organically, while later pastoral texts formalized offices with qualifications and institutional roles. - This marks a shift from flexible spirit-led participation toward structured church hierarchy. Transcript: Dan McClellan So in Corinthians, we have references to these gifts in a couple of different places. Yeah, that's really interesting. Yeah. So it's, but when you talked about, yeah, it's like there's a catalog of gifts. You sell enough chocolate bars to your neighbors or force your parents to write a check for enough chocolate bars, and you get a little catalog and you get to pick out your gift. No, it's not like that at all. But also, when we look at the difference, the catalogings of the gifts, they are different. Because in addition to just talking about these skills and abilities, Paul also makes reference to, in 1 Corinthians 12, 28, he makes reference to different—I don't know that we can Talk about them as offices yet. 28, he talks about God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then deeds of power, then gifts of healing, forms of assistance, forms of leadership, Various kinds of tongues. So I think there's an awful lot of overlap between your gift and your role. Yeah. And so I think the roles are really the manifestation of the gift in some ways. Dan Beecher He doesn't seem to be distinguishing those two categories at all. Right. It just seems to be that some people, their gift of the Spirit is apostolic, and others is prophetic, and others it teaching and others it's power. And so, uh, yeah, that, I, I mean, that makes, that makes a certain amount of sense. Like the, the, what, like an apostle, that is a, a thing to do. Uh, and, and, and, uh, you know, prophesying is a thing that you do. It's not, it's not so much, uh, you know, I I guess it is a title. But here, I think it's an interesting way to look at it as just a proclivity. Dan McClellan Yeah, and people talk about the church during Paul's day as being more spirit-led, which is kind of like this person has shown up and they've joined us and they are really good at whatever. And so, bam, that is now their role. That's what they do. And so the spirit kind of generates their role within the community because everybody can see that that's what they have been spiritually gifted with. So it's not yet, oh, well, you are now an overseer. If you want to be an overseer, by the way, here are all the qualifications that you have to meet, which is what we get in 1 Timothy and what we get in Titus, the pastoral epistles that are Probably coming from the end of the first or the beginning of the second century CE, where it's not as much a spirit-led thing, where it's more of an institution with a set of roles. Dan Beecher So things have started to sort of solidify into an organizational structure. Dan McClellan Yeah, where it's not so much I show up, I have a special ability, and they say, great, we could use you over here. Dan Beecher Now it's, here are the roles. And everybody's like, oh, cool, you're a prophet. We'll prophesy on our behalf. Now it's like, we're going to assign, you're the prophet, and you're the apostle, and you're the this and that. Dan McClellan And it's kind of like, here are the roles. Here are the prereqs for each role. Here are the requirements. And you pick one. Yeah. So it's less spirit-led when we get to the pastoral epistles, I think. ([Time 0:48:04](https://share.snipd.com/snip/65ff7004-dc7b-482a-99fc-c7891bd85288)) - **The Gift Of Tongues May Mean Real Languages** - The hosts distinguish Acts’ gift of languages from modern glossolalia, describing xenoglossia as communicating across language barriers. - Dan McClellan recalls Latter-day Saint missionaries treating language-learning ability as a practical spiritual gift. Transcript: Dan McClellan Yeah, and then tongues. That's the one that a lot of people want to – glossolalia is a big deal for some reason these days. Dan Beecher Well, and it's so interesting because – and again, I do want to save this as a – I think speaking in tongues should be its own segment. So we'll probably do that coming up pretty soon here. But yeah, it seems to me that the original idea of speaking in tongues or being able to hear tongues is understanding, which is kind of the opposite of what people who speak in tongues Now do. Dan McClellan Yeah, there's kind of a distinction, xen and glossolalia and xenoglossia seems to be, is definitely what's going on in Acts 2. Okay. And this is the idea, not that you are somehow having your faculties taken over by some agents so that you're speaking some kind of heavenly language, which a lot of former Pentecostals And evangelicals have said, yeah, I was just making stuff up. But xenoglossia would be you're understanding someone else who does not speak your language, and you have the ability to engage in and speak the same language. And that was, you know, as a Latter-day Saint who served a foreign proselytizing mission when I first joined the LDS Church, well, a year after I joined the church, we understood the Gift of tongues to be a particular kind of facility with picking up languages. So we were not into the whole, you know, gibberish babbling idea of the gift of tongues. We were of the mindset that this is, you are blessed to be able to learn a foreign language much more quickly and in situations where it is needful for you to be able to communicate something In a language that you may not understand that well. You are blessed with the ability to do something. Dan Beecher And I've definitely heard of missionaries, Mormon missionaries, talking at the missionary training center, talking about, you know, praying so that they can receive that gift better Because, you know, they're all, they're all terrified. They're, they're getting two weeks of language training or whatever it is or something before they just get thrown to the wolves in some other, in some foreign country. So they are, they're, they're all, uh, yeah, they're all praying and, and actually, you know, believing that they will, that it's very possible that they could be blessed with that. But I don't know if you know this. There is history in the LDS church of people speaking in tongues in the early part of the church, which I think is in the sense of like, you know, standing up in the middle of a church service And saying a bunch of syllables that sound like gibberish to everybody else. Dan McClellan Well, you know what? The early days of the church were much more the Paul to today's pastoral epistles. Yes, indeed. So it was not, things had not become calcified into the global institution and the corporation soul that it now is today. So that is not at all, should not be at all shocking to anyone who has a good grasp on those things. ([Time 0:54:04](https://share.snipd.com/snip/4a9d5c65-882d-4855-b2f5-2c658affcde6))