Wait, did we just collaborate? 🔗 **Source:** [Wait, did we just collaborate?](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUjZOOPo-XE) > [!note]+ Document Notes > tags: [design-collaboration, open-source, accessibility, team-dynamics] > author: PenpotFest > source: YouTube > reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUjZOOPo-XE > date created: 2025-01-27 07:28 > > # 🏷️ Title: Better Together: Real Talk on Design Collaboration - PenpotFest Panel > <!-- deep-read:sections start --> ## 🧰 Action Inbox - [H1] Implement team watercooler channel — private space for human connection #community - [H2] Add customer service insights to design meetings — direct user feedback loop #feedback - [H3] Create cross-functional role shadowing program — break down silos #learning ## 🧭 Table of Contents - [📝 Summary](#-summary) - [📖 Main Content](#-main-content) - [🗒️ Notes](#️-notes) - [📚 References](#-references) - [🗣️ Paraphrase](#️-paraphrase) - [📰 Newsletter](#-newsletter) - [✅ Action Items](#-action-items) - [🧪 Hypotheses](#-hypotheses) - [📊 Methodology](#-methodology) - [❓ Questions](#-questions) - [🔮 Future Research](#-future-research) - [💡 Implications](#-implications) - [🧠 Learning Styles Assessment](#-learning-styles-assessment) - [📊 Accessibility Assessment](#-accessibility-assessment) - [🌍 DEIB Assessment](#-deib-assessment) - [✅ Logical Validity](#-logical-validity) - [🛡️ DARVO Analysis](#-darvo-analysis) - [🎯 Conclusion](#-conclusion) ### 🔗 References - [PenpotFest Panel Discussion](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUjZOOPo-XE) - [Open Source Design Community](https://opensourcedesign.net) ## 📝 Summary - Panel discussion on practical design collaboration featuring experts in accessibility, education, and cross-functional teams - Key theme: True collaboration is invisible when teams understand shared goals and constraints - Focus areas include breaking down silos, proactive communication, and leveraging open source for portfolio building - Panelists advocate for vulnerability, diverse perspectives, and understanding the "why" behind work - Vision for 2026: Accessibility as default, flatter org structures, lifelong learning across disciplines ## 📖 Main Content This panel brings together four experts to discuss real-world collaboration challenges beyond theoretical frameworks. Gloria emphasizes that great collaboration becomes invisible when teams align on shared understanding of goals. Lei advocates for proactive relationship-building and vulnerability as trust-builders. Kina focuses on creating safe environments for students to contribute diverse skills. The discussion covers practical solutions like watercooler Slack channels, involving customer service in design decisions, and using open source projects for portfolio development. All panelists stress that effective collaboration requires understanding constraints and needs of team members rather than just following prescribed processes. ## 🗒️ Notes #### ⏱️ [00:00:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUjZOOPo-XE&t=0) — [H1] Event Introduction and Panel Setup - Key idea: Focus on practical collaboration over theory - Evidence: "This is not the time for theory. This is the time for practical." #### ⏱️ [00:02:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUjZOOPo-XE&t=150) — [H2] What Better Collaboration Looks Like - Gloria's Perspective - Key idea: Great collaboration is invisible because it flows naturally - Evidence: "Great collaboration doesn't look like it because it just happens naturally" #### ⏱️ [00:04:15](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUjZOOPo-XE&t=255) — [H2] Educational Collaboration - Kina's Approach - Key idea: Learn from past experiences and establish diverse expertise teams - Evidence: "It's all about how team work together to do more better" #### ⏱️ [00:06:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUjZOOPo-XE&t=360) — [H2] Understanding Constraints and Needs - Lei's Method - Key idea: Understand individual constraints before implementing collaboration processes - Evidence: "Understanding those constraints and understanding their needs of the person that will collaborate with you" #### ⏱️ [00:08:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUjZOOPo-XE&t=510) — [H1] Where Workflows Break Down - Communication Gaps - Key idea: Workflows break due to lack of proactive communication between design and development - Evidence: "The breakdowns between designers and developers mostly is related to proactive communication" #### ⏱️ [00:11:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUjZOOPo-XE&t=705) — [H2] Breaking Down Compartmentalization - Key idea: Teams should cross into each other's tools and domains rather than waiting - Evidence: "Let's try to break down this silos as much as we can" #### ⏱️ [00:13:20](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUjZOOPo-XE&t=800) — [H2] Proactive Relationship Building - Key idea: Be actively curious about teammates' work and build human connections - Evidence: "I'm the person that going to the Slack like hey what are you doing?" #### ⏱️ [00:15:10](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUjZOOPo-XE&t=910) — [H3] The Watercooler Solution - Key idea: Create private team channels for non-work human connection - Evidence: "We created a Slack channel that's our team name watercooler" #### ⏱️ [00:17:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUjZOOPo-XE&t=1065) — [H1] Creating Shared Ownership Through Understanding - Key idea: Ownership comes from understanding the "why" behind work - Evidence: "Understanding the why are we doing things is crucial" #### ⏱️ [00:20:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUjZOOPo-XE&t=1230) — [H2] Safe Collaborative Environments in Education - Key idea: Shift student mindset from individual pace to shared outcomes - Evidence: "Let them feel collaborative... shifting their mindsets from my own pace to our outcomes" #### ⏱️ [00:23:15](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUjZOOPo-XE&t=1395) — [H1] Cross-Disciplinary Collaboration Insights - Key idea: Customer service provides valuable design insights often overlooked - Evidence: "We start actually adding people from customer service into the meetings" #### ⏱️ [00:27:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUjZOOPo-XE&t=1620) — [H1] Open Source as Portfolio Building Strategy - Key idea: Open source projects provide real work experience for new designers - Evidence: "Don't work for free for these big corporations just go and look for an open source project" #### ⏱️ [00:30:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUjZOOPo-XE&t=1845) — [H2] Open Source in Education Access - Key idea: Open source tools create transparent learning environments - Evidence: "Open source tool has a very good community that allows everyone to share collaborate together" #### ⏱️ [00:34:20](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUjZOOPo-XE&t=2060) — [H1] Vision for 2026 - Integrated Accessibility - Key idea: Accessibility should be default, not an afterthought requiring specialists - Evidence: "I wish that I cannot need to talk about accessibility... my job doesn't need to exist" #### ⏱️ [00:36:50](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUjZOOPo-XE&t=2210) — [H2] Breaking Organizational Structures - Key idea: Create cross-functional "fruit salad" teams instead of rigid org charts - Evidence: "Just burn the org chart... creating a fruit salad of different profiles" ## 📚 References - [Open Source Design](https://opensourcedesign.net/) - [PenpotFest Event](https://penpotfest.org/) - [Penpot Community](https://community.penpot.app/) ## 🗣️ Paraphrase - Effective collaboration becomes invisible when teams share understanding of goals and constraints rather than following rigid processes - Breaking down professional silos requires proactive communication and willingness to engage with others' tools and perspectives - Creating safe spaces for vulnerability and human connection builds the trust necessary for meaningful collaborative work ## 📰 Newsletter 🎨 **Real Talk on Design Collaboration from PenpotFest** The latest PenpotFest panel cut through collaboration theory to share what actually works. Key insight: the best collaboration is invisible—it flows naturally when everyone understands the "why" behind their work. **Practical Takeaways:** - Create "watercooler" spaces for human connection beyond work tasks - Include customer service insights in design decisions for real user feedback - Use open source projects to build portfolios with authentic constraints - Break down silos by learning basics of teammates' disciplines The panel's 2026 vision? Accessibility as default, flatter organizations mixing different roles, and lifelong learning across disciplines. **Resources:** [Learn WordPress](https://learn.wordpress.org/), [Developer Docs](https://developer.wordpress.org/), [WP-CLI](https://wp-cli.org/) ## ✅ Action Items #### DevRel - Developer advocacy: Create "collaboration in practice" workshop series based on panel insights - Education: Develop cross-disciplinary learning paths for designers and developers - Developer experience: Document real workflow breakdowns and solutions from community - Community management: Establish "watercooler" channels in community platforms #### Community - Contributors: Create mentorship program pairing designers with open source projects - Maintainers: Develop templates for inclusive collaboration practices - Ecosystem: Host cross-project collaboration showcases #### WordPress - Design: Integrate accessibility as default in design system documentation - Training: Create collaboration workshops covering design-dev handoffs - Community: Support local meetups focused on cross-functional collaboration #### FAIR - Technical independence: Document collaboration practices that avoid vendor lock-in - Governance artifacts: Create templates for inclusive decision-making processes ## 🧪 Hypotheses - Teams with informal "watercooler" channels report higher satisfaction and trust levels - Including customer service representatives in design meetings reduces support ticket volume - Designers who contribute to open source projects demonstrate stronger collaboration skills in job interviews - Organizations with flatter structures and role flexibility ship products with fewer workflow bottlenecks ### 📊 Methodology - Survey team satisfaction before and after implementing watercooler channels - Track support ticket themes and resolution times when customer service joins design meetings - Compare portfolio strength and interview performance between traditional and open source contributors ### ❓ Questions - How can remote teams replicate the spontaneous collaboration of physical watercoolers? - What metrics best measure invisible collaboration versus performative collaboration? - How do we balance specialization with cross-functional understanding? ### 🔮 Future Research - Long-term impact of vulnerability-based leadership on team performance - Effectiveness of open source contributions as hiring signals - Optimal organizational structures for creative collaboration ### 💡 Implications - Practice: Move from process-heavy to understanding-heavy collaboration - Policy: Review hiring practices to value cross-functional experience - Education: Integrate multi-disciplinary learning into design and development curricula - Funding: Invest in informal relationship-building infrastructure ### 🧠 Learning Styles Assessment Reading level estimate: 10th grade #### 👀 Visual learners - Present: Panel discussion format with multiple perspectives - Improve: Add collaboration workflow diagrams, before/after team structure visuals #### 🔊 Aural learners - Present: Full video discussion with natural conversation flow - Improve: Create audio-only version with chapter markers #### 🗣️ Verbal learners - Present: Rich definitions through examples and analogies - Improve: Glossary of collaboration terms and frameworks mentioned #### 🧩 Kinesthetic learners - Present: Actionable takeaways and specific implementation steps - Improve: Worksheets for implementing watercooler channels, collaboration audits #### 🧠 Logical learners - Present: Clear problem-solution structure throughout discussion - Improve: Decision trees for choosing collaboration approaches #### 🧑‍🤝‍🧑 Social learners - Present: Panel format encourages multiple perspectives - Improve: Discussion guides for teams to process content together #### 🧘‍♀️ Solitary learners - Present: Individual reflection opportunities through questions - Improve: Self-assessment rubrics for collaboration skills #### 🌿 Naturalistic learners - Present: Organic conversation flow mimics natural discussion - Improve: Connect collaboration to ecosystem thinking, community health ### 📊 Accessibility Assessment #### Screen reader semantics - Present: Clear heading structure, descriptive timestamps - Improve: Add speaker identification tags, better alt text for concepts #### Keyboard navigation - Present: Standard video player controls - Improve: Transcript with skip-to-speaker functionality #### Contrast and readability - Present: High contrast timestamps and headers - Improve: Ensure all text meets 4.5:1 contrast minimum #### Media and captions - Present: Full transcript provided - Improve: Add time-synced captions, speaker identification ### 🌍 DEIB Assessment #### Cultural breadth - Present: International panel with Hong Kong, European perspectives - Improve: Include more Global South voices in future panels #### Inclusive language - Present: Gender-neutral examples, accessible terminology - Improve: Define technical terms more consistently #### Neurodiversity support - Present: Clear section breaks, multiple explanation styles - Improve: Add content warnings for discussion of workplace challenges #### Representation - Present: Mixed gender panel, diverse professional backgrounds - Improve: Include disabled voices discussing collaboration needs ### ✅ Logical Validity #### Strong reasoning - Inductive strength: Builds general principles from specific team experiences - Analogical strength: Uses watercooler metaphor effectively for digital spaces - Causal reasoning: Links understanding constraints to collaboration success #### Fallacies - Appeal to novelty: Slight tendency to favor new approaches over proven methods - Anecdotal evidence: Heavy reliance on personal stories without broader validation #### Tone of voice - Overall tone: Conversational, practical, and encouraging with occasional self-deprecating humor ### 🛡️ DARVO Analysis - Deny: No denial patterns observed - Attack: No attacks on individuals or groups - Reverse victim/offender: No reversal patterns - Emotional cues and rhetoric: Positive, solution-focused discussion ## 🎯 Conclusion This panel demonstrates that effective collaboration transcends tools and processes—it requires human understanding, shared purpose, and willingness to be vulnerable. The practical strategies shared, from watercooler channels to cross-functional learning, offer immediate implementation opportunities. The 2026 vision of integrated accessibility, flatter organizations, and lifelong learning provides a roadmap for evolving collaborative practices in design and development. ## 🧱 Refactor Appendix ### 📚 Literature Split Pad Purpose: Stage CEE units that become Literature notes. Split level: H3 ### [H1] Great collaboration becomes invisible through shared understanding > [!quote] [Better Together: Real Talk on Design Collaboration](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUjZOOPo-XE) by [[PenpotFest]] via [[YouTube]]. Published 2025-10-30. Accessed 2025-01-27. > "Great collaboration doesn't look like it because it just happens naturally." When teams align on goals and constraints, collaboration flows without performative processes. [view highlight](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUjZOOPo-XE&t=150#H1) #xref #articleseed ID:rw_collaboration_invisible ### [H2] Customer service provides valuable design insights > [!quote] [Better Together Panel](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUjZOOPo-XE&t=1395) > "We start actually adding people from customer service into the meetings." Direct user feedback through support teams reveals real usability issues. [view highlight](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUjZOOPo-XE&t=1395#H2) #xref ID:rw_customer_service_insights --- ### 🔖 Atomic Split Pad (Zettel Candidates) Purpose: Promote reusable claims into Atomic notes. Split level: H4 #### [Z1] Vulnerability builds trust in remote teams - Applies when establishing psychological safety in distributed work - Pointer to 13:20 timestamp on proactive relationship building - Links: [[Remote-Work]] [[Team-Psychology]] #### [Z2] Open source provides real portfolio experience - Relevant for new designers entering the field - Pointer to 27:00 timestamp on portfolio building strategy - Links: [[Career-Development]] [[Open-Source-Design]] --- ### ✏️ Fleeting Queue Purpose: Capture quick actions for Fleeting notes. - [F1] Research org chart alternatives — Gloria's "fruit salad" concept #fleeting #organization - [F2] Document watercooler channel best practices — Lei's implementation #fleeting #community - [F3] Create open source design project list — portfolio building resource #fleeting #resources <!-- deep-read:sections end --> ## 📺 Video  --- # 📄 Full Transcript *Auto-generated from YouTube captions · timestamps roughly every 30 seconds · [watch on YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUjZOOPo-XE)* **[00:04]** [Music] So, what a fabulous event it's been. Everyone having a good time? You still awake? Yeah, it's brilliant. Now, in case you couldn't tell from the rest of this event, the overarching theme has really been about collaboration and that we are better together. You see it all over the place. And in this panel, what we want to do is **[00:34]** we want to dig a lot more into this a bit deeper. We want to be honest with each other. This is not the time for theory. This is the time for practical. This is a time for being real with each other. Um, if if you know me already, you know this is how I how I roll. I don't really do the otherwise. I like getting into the real opinions nice and quickly. So, we're going to do that and we're going to learn a bit more from these fabulous folks we have here. And so, I'm just going to give a quick intro. Obviously, you know them all already, but so right next to me, we **[01:06]** have Lei who gave a fantastic workshop yesterday on accessibility. So the go-to person on accessibility at this event and Gloria, he gave a fabulous talk that really went into honestly the basics of this panel completely talking about collaboration and then of course Kina um who along with Tim uh spoke about the role of open-source in education and how they develop curriculums to help give students real practical skills. And so **[01:37]** these are all things that collaboration is obviously key and of course open source is always running under everything we talk about with within penpot really. So we will have some time for questions at the end. We'll see how we go and uh so if you do have any b burning questions in your mind keep them in there. Okay. So, let us start off with what does better collaboration look like to us in practice, not just in theory. And I'm **[02:08]** going to go to you first, Gloria, because >> I'm basically saying your fabulous talk yesterday. What are some of those the key takeaways that you have from that? And yeah, what else what does better collaboration look like to you? >> I think probably uh I would like to hold on one word of the question which is how it looks like. Mhm. >> I think great collaboration doesn't look like like it you cannot see it like because it just happens naturally, right? Um I think we tend to **[02:39]** default to oh to be able to collaborate we need to be in all the meetings together. Everyone needs to be everywhere. we have to have like all these many rituals and stuff going on so that it it's very visible that we are collaborating when real collaboration is a smooth because you've reached this um consensus on stuff like you agree already on things you just keep rolling you can barely see it because everyone understands the why are we doing things >> and then the moment everyone understands the why and the how you don't need to be **[03:10]** meeting in every every three uh days right like to check in and to make sure we are all aligned. >> Yeah. You don't want to be performative about it. It's doing it for real. >> It feels like all these uh frameworks to collaborate are like about doing things. So that is like but yeah, but while I'm doing this, I'm not actually collaborating. >> Uh >> yeah, maybe they're useful educational tools if you're still learning how to effectively collaborate or if you're struggling. But yeah, get into I love **[03:40]** that. So how about you Kina? Now obviously you're not necessarily doing a design development collaboration or I mean to be fair not everyone here is a designer or a developer. I think there's a whole range of roles and interests and things like that. Um but you have to foster collaboration inside of your students as well and in your curriculums. So what does better collaboration look like to you? >> Oh I think the better collaborations is uh have some crucial points. So the first point would be how do we learn **[04:11]** from the past experience no matter it's good or bad. So for me I would like to use a case study to explain of it. So for me, so last year we uh try to did the uh brand competitions and because we are we were lack of experience. So uh uh so in this year we try to make a several changes. So like we establish a team that the experience can show their expertise like their contacting the school designing the programs as well as **[04:42]** how to do the social media. So I think it's all about how team work together. So pra to do more better. So in a classroom setting about how to establish good collaboration between teacher is student is to uh encourage students a lot because uh and in a classroom setting they have fast learner and slow learner. you have to understand what they need like when I uh uh teaching in **[05:12]** the classes like the blended classes. So I will think about uh how can I set the different trap points for student to achieve and make they make them feel comfortable not feeling be isolated or feeling boring for the lesson. Yeah. >> Yeah. So flexibility is so much a key part of it. It's no one thing fits one person truly. And how about Elishi? What is better collaboration because you work with like massive companies and well like and organizations who are big and **[05:45]** hard to move and but you also have smaller collaboration within your team at your own organization. I would say and I love how you mentioned in terms of education um understanding which is the person when you are collated with right u for example when I was giving my talk my workshop yesterday I was start talking with people beforehand to understand what was the public what was the needs what was the the knowledge that they have and I think sometimes when we collaborate we are trying checking the list as Gloria mentioned **[06:16]** like okay if we will collaborate we will do a meeting and then we will pass the files and all that kind of stuff. But the reality I mean for me practice is understand the constraints like if this user particular really likes to be collaborative without the camera off because they don't want to you know showy faces okay great let's do them in that way so you feel more comfortable so understanding those constraints and understanding their needs of the person that will collaborate with you I think it's the best way to actually make a **[06:49]** good connection. Yeah. And being generous about it. They not just making Yeah. Not just make about what you want, but what they need too. >> Y. >> Yeah. I love that. >> So where and this question we we have phrase where do most workflows between design and development break down? But I would maybe also rephrase it slightly as to where do most workflows in general um break down and what small change could fix it? Like where is this friction and how can we avoid it? I'll go to you **[07:20]** first on this Kina. >> Oh, for me I think the breakdowns between design and designers and the developer mostly is uh related to is there have a po proactive communication between them. So basically in the debug or testing phases or some designer may just send the file to the uh developers and waiting for their feedback. uh the while uh during this moment this some developer may just or **[07:53]** waiting for the design team to call them for have a meeting and chat the progress. So I think this because the lack of the proactive communications. So furthermore, so I think it's very important to have a person work as a cause functional roles like a team player like he how canire inspire others and give a possible feedback uh as a bridge between the develop team and also the design team. Yeah. **[08:24]** >> Yeah. that and that really reminds me of what Gloria was saying in your talk about being close to the metal about having that understanding of the platform and often the people that do that are the people that are best able to communicate across the entirety of the team because they have that understanding of each other's roles >> and this compartment what is it like I chose the the most long longest word in English >> compartmentalization >> that one yeah that >> I I don't deserve points I am a native **[08:54]** English speaker. >> What's the worst word I could pick to say now in public? So yeah, that word um that what Katina was saying now that the like developers are waiting and designers are waiting like why are you waiting just go on each other's tools and you know like uh uh this idea that we have no this is where my work stops and the other person wants starts like let's try to break down this silos as much as we can. Uh, and a lot of that is **[09:25]** because I guess we love using tools and talking about tools. We work in technology. We're excited about the tech, but actually so much of it is people, isn't it? And it's the people issues and the personal issues that's is what's making this better or worse as well. Yeah. And how about you, Lei? Where do you think it works breakdown? >> I have a controversial one. >> Oh, please do. Please do. Come on. >> So, I think it's be proactive. Like sometimes we are just waiting for someone to give you a direction or like **[09:57]** just waiting for the email to start collaborating. >> I'm that kind of person of like if I'm in an office I will go around and see your screens like hey what are you doing? I want to learn from you. Yeah sometimes that people it's annoying that's me but when you are on a virtual scenario and remote work is differently. So how you can actually put that into the virtual remote scenario. So I'm the person that going to the Slack like hey what are you doing? what do you do for breakfast to start sparking the conversation and I think sometimes when **[10:29]** we lose that kind of like human connection even if it's digital is when everything goes down and also taking into consideration that we are not proactive proactive of building relationships in order to be collaborative in the long run and I suppose that's even more important when you're remote from each other and you're not necessarily in the same room as each other that it's even harder to have start those conversations and be proactive in that way because you're having to reach out digitally somehow. >> Yep. Sometimes I just take a picture. **[10:59]** This is me uh say in on the morning I just don't brush my hair. I mean it's a little bit invasive. Not everyone has that kind of personality, but at least people on the other side laugh and we can start a conversation every time. Everyone is just making fun. So >> it's nice is adding a little bit of vulnerability. I was having a great conversation about this upstairs earlier about if you're leading with vulnerability and showing, hey, we're not all perfect and you make it easier to open these conversations and be able to talk to each other on a real level rather than having to negotiate egos and **[11:31]** insecurities. >> And I think you build also trust and and confidence on your team. Like if you are vulnerable, people will be willing to be open to say their feelings when they have something that they really struggle and want to collaborate but they struggle with something. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Something you were asking for a small fix. >> Yes. >> Right. Part of your question to Allesia's point for example we start we had a we created a Slack channel that's our team name uh watercooler. >> Mhm. So it's like where you go to get **[12:02]** your glass of water is it's a Slack channel and it's where we are sharing our uh >> random photos uh you know by linking something completely unrelated to work uh and I think it's like part of the glue of the team having this water cooler situation. It's also a private channel >> completely locked like no transparency here. >> That's one area where there isn't transparent. >> Exactly. You don't want to have transparency here. Uh and uh yeah, I **[12:33]** think I I I love having it. I think I'd seen it in in another team who were having it and I'm like, I'm so stealing this. >> Yeah. And you show that you're actually a human being that you're working with and not just a work machine. >> That's just an avatar over there in the chat. >> Yeah. >> Actually, funny thing is whenever someone leaves the team because they move to another team or whatever, they stay in the water cooler. So >> that's nice. >> Yeah. I guess if it's like a physical office, you would have you might still have the same water cooler. You might go back down to the water cooler on the other floor. >> Yeah. **[13:04]** >> I love that. That's carrying on in the digital area. So these can be quite fraught relationships that we have and especially we're working remotely and doing these things async. How do we ensure that everyone feels ownership in this shared process? So not just responsibility for their own individual part. We're talking about starting to open up and starting to push against each other's edges and you were talking about that previously. But do you have any other like tips that you **[13:35]** would give for doing that lei to you first? >> H ownership. So again I have a different style. Don't don't be shy to use it but I have some warnings >> right? >> It's not for everyone. Um, one of the things that I do with my team is that I try to put Easter eggs on the work that we are shipping to a client, but they feel that they have ownership and they feel that they can show in case on their portfolio because it feels that they have their signature there in some way. Even if we are working with design **[14:06]** systems or things that supposed to be consistent that supposed to be not changed, they try to put something a little bit of spice there that it it represent them. So they feel the ownership of I'm working on this and it feels like a I mean I know that design and art is not the same but it's a little bit of piece of art from there. Um and every time that we do uh we we try to encourage that and then we encourage sometimes to do it even in as a team like we as a design team we try **[14:36]** to do things differently and the way that we chip the projects we try to put it something that people say like huh I see that in some place. Yeah, because we work on it. So, yeah, but that's not for everyone. Again, that's the way that we we try to do it. Um, but yeah, I would say that >> and same question to you, Gloria. And I imagine that working in an organization where everything is assigned to people as a matter of course. How does shared responsibility work in that sense? >> Uh, I will go back to something I was **[15:08]** saying earlier, which is understanding the why are we doing things, right? and why and how are we going to ensure that this thing is done and how do you measure this thing is done correctly uh because of course as you said like most of the times it's like the business needs xing you need to work on it so it's not like you choose sometimes you can choose but it's not like the regular uh way of working so I think understanding the why why are you working on this is crucial because when you are doing like **[15:38]** meaningless work like oh yeah I just been told to paint this wall color white is like I mean if it's mil gray I don't really care right because I don't even know why I'm doing this but if I know this is because I need to project a movie and needs to be crystal why then I will you know do it properly because I understand what I'm doing and why I'm doing it um so yeah I think basically taking the time to transfer this information to the team uh is crucial instead of assigning you know tickets or tasks or whatever because then it's like **[16:09]** pointless. Yeah. Becomes very siloed and you're just a kind of cog in a machine rather. >> It's like check check done. No, like uh closing issues. >> Yeah. It doesn't doesn't feel very creative. >> Yeah. >> And uh how about for you Kina? Like I guess is this amongst your students or in creating your curriculums? How how did you interpret this question when you saw it beforehand? So for me how to ensure everyone's feels ownerships is I think it's also related **[16:41]** to how to generate a safe and collaborative environments for student to share ideas together. So for me while during the teaching I may uh establish some uh collaborative projects for student to do with. So like for Brenda the student some of them may good at do at the character design some of them may good at doing the story board and some of them may uh setting the cameras and something else. So all the student work together **[17:11]** and they know what are they doing and know each other what uh what other doing so that they can collaborate together so can let them feel yeah feel collaborative. Yeah. So it's also I think it's less student to shifting their mindsets from my own pace to our outcomes. Yeah. Is a very important things. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so I think a lot of this collaboration that we're **[17:42]** having is not just happening sort of within teams of people with the same roles but often it is happening across disciplines. And whether that is design and development or whether that is from management and or people managing projects or the people working with them leaders to people that are part of a team. So in your experience I'll go to you first with back to you Katina on this. What's one moment where this form of collaboration surprised you whether it was in a good way or in a bad way? **[18:14]** uh I would say it's a good way because I can see student uh how they uh collaborate with each others and they learn from each others even though some of them may be shy to experience their idea but I think to uh have a very open uh and safe area uh environments for student to work with it can help them feel very uh secure Yeah. >> And be brave, be proud to share their **[18:45]** ideas. >> So they do things that surprise you often in that space. >> Yeah. >> Or is it just how well they get on that's surprising? >> Yeah. >> Oh, fabulous. Well, how about um Elish? You're continually working with people who are in like different roles across your team and across your work. >> So, I have a fun story. Uh I was having the opportunity to work in a in a company that I was having a friend. He was from customer service, **[19:16]** >> right? >> And we love to go together to regaton music concerts and that's why we actually get along and I remember one time we was actually in the kitchen and he said like what that you do in design that customer service it's not off. We have a drill of calls like I don't know you what you guys do that all the customers are angry and I was like huh yes we shipped something yesterday and he was like well you are actually **[19:46]** messing with my work and I was like oops and after that we start actually chatting in the kitchen every time like what are you doing we'll have more calls tomorrow it was like maybe and I was like no tell me so we start talking and I think it It was super fun to understand how my design has implications in other people's jobs and also understand from that experience like the huge impact that can have just a change of color or just a change of pixels on the bottom just from here to **[20:18]** here and it was really eye opening to me to understand also like sometimes the stakeholders are not the only ones that have the expertise you know they start saying to you like you what this is the strategy this is the thing that we need to do and it's like hm interesting because customer service are telling us that the calls is about this this this this do you really think about it that this is the good strategy and it was like okay and we start actually adding people from customer service into the **[20:48]** meetings and I think it was a really valuable lesson to understand that sometimes design not only depends on what we think it's the core team we can actually have really good data and insights from other people that maybe we don't think about too much or too often. >> Yeah. It's such a rich like place to get information from customer support. Yeah. You really find out what people are really pissed off about. >> Exactly. Exactly. There's actually I've never had to do it, but there's actually many companies who have this as part of their on boarding, right? Like when you **[21:19]** join the company, you spend one or two weeks in uh customer support. >> Oh, that's cool. So you get the real tea and then you know like you go and and then you do some rotation from time to time every quarter or I find it an excellent strategy to be honest. >> I heard about that and I think it's it's great. Yeah. Like if you just change one screen maybe you will have more calls. Just sit down and listen those calls. >> Yeah. just answer some emails and like get >> it's one of the things I find really fun about working with penot is I love **[21:50]** hanging out in the penot community because when I want to think about what am I going to make a video about next what should our next hands-on demo be for and I go and see okay what's everyone asking about like what's the thing the question that we're getting lots of questions about that maybe people are confused about or want to learn how to use better perfect easy inspiration for me and I am to do any work that's I was so nervous yesterday on the workshop. I asked everyone, "How is your level of accessibility?" Everyone was raising hands and I was like, **[22:22]** >> so yeah, definitely >> there is never anything wrong with going back to the basics though. I think it's important to have a reminder of it. For sure. Absolutely. And Gloria, do you have any kind of experience that you've had in mind that where whether for good or bad? Um, >> can it be not from work? >> Yeah. Yeah. Please, please do. Yeah. So the most obvious one to me, have you ever bought a small piece of fabric from IKEA? >> H yeah. >> Have you ever seen the T it has which is bigger than the product itself? **[22:53]** >> It's like the legal team not talking to the product team. >> Yeah. >> I always look at it like why didn't they talk to each other? You know, they could have done it way differently. You like small toys like this plush toys and they have >> like this massive label. It's like just put it in a bag with a paper, you know, like why did you do this? >> Yeah. So these kind of things always I'm always obsessed over these things not for work but yeah talk to each other. >> This is how you know you have a designer mindset is that you pick apart the details in everything that you see. **[23:25]** >> Yeah. Yeah. Like these uh casserles like the uh these cast iron casserles. >> Mhm. >> I don't know what's the the brand Lus. >> Lus. Yeah. >> They have a 30-day trial. Did you know it's like an enterprise? I love it. Uh so I had to go through it just to see how it was in a physical world. >> So you you went through it. Did you do it? >> Of course. >> And did they take it back? >> You need to you need to experience the things and the designer mindset always on >> and and did you send it back? **[23:55]** >> Uh yes. >> Because it was incredibly expensive. >> Exactly. >> Yeah. >> No. >> Transparency, you see. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Absolutely. Uh, so let's go on to a topic that I think is like something that a lot of us care about. Like one of the reasons a lot of us got into pimpot was because of it being open source. And I think open source even though we haven't necessarily discussed it a huge amount, it's kind of been a theme a second theme that's run through a lot of the talks. And even yesterday um when we **[24:25]** had the Q&A after um your uh yesterday today Q&A after your session, all the days are turning into one for me. Um, Kina was because I loved in yours and Tim's talk where you were talking about the actual importance of open source in access for education for you. And so what role does open-source tooling or all the principles themselves of open source play in improving transparency and working together um for you? So in **[24:57]** Hong Kong so basically most of the school are choosing to use the proprietary tools as their default at their main teacher tools because uh because I mentioned before because school every school can have the funding that get from the government. So most of them will use to upgrade their classroom or equipment but they just overlook the importance of uh importing a good content in school. So basically because why we so eagerly to promote uh open **[25:31]** source to teaching in Hong Kong because we find the opportunity gap that if school would like to adopt those open source tools it can help them to do better because we know that open source tool is a good community that and allows everyone to share collaborate together. So it has a very transparent environment. So everyone just can just to learn from each others as well as it's a very good things for student to **[26:03]** learn with. Yeah. >> Yeah. And I think once you start realizing the power of being able to use things that are free and open, you can you you know to look for that in other tools and know that those other tools will like often be a more affordable option or be something that you have access to as well. >> Yeah. So I mean Lei, how about you? Because I guess in your work it's not necessarily do you do much work with open source tooling. Do you make use of these tools? >> Yes. And I think it's really valuable **[26:34]** that in in terms of the accessibility industry, we we have those kind of tools that help people to accommodate and personalize their their experience for their needs. Um for example, screen readers that are open source that it's it's super super important. So they can adjust it and they can can use it for the specific purpose that they need. Some sometimes for you can be just like reading the screen in a center of like velocity but for other people could be another different thing and and having this opportunity and having tools that **[27:05]** really are available as a open source I think changed the game for for another for people's life and independence mostly. >> Yeah. Yeah. And it's important for people that actually need those tools, but also then for those of us who want to test with those tools, we have no excuse. They're available to us. We can try them. They're there. And uh how about you? I mean, I guess open source like there's a huge amount of open source in GitHub. So I guess is there any particular area that really is important to you? I think uh an area **[27:37]** that often I I I keep repeating a lot but whenever we talk with uh more junior designers or people who are starting to design or accepting looking for their first roles uh something I hear often is I don't have a portfolio like I don't have I don't have previous experience or there's I have nothing to show and you see a ton of folks no shade doing redesigns for millionaires for free over social like I redesigned blah blah blah **[28:08]** logo or things like that. uh I I always say don't do this don't work for free for these big corporations just go and look for an open source project that you can collaborate do the design there and then you will have a portfolio and you will have real work because while collaborating in open source projects uh you need to deal with so many different people different profiles different you know backgrounds you learn so much it's real work experience >> real life constraints as well >> exactly real life constraints you are **[28:39]** designing around you know a need uh there's a community there's users there's so much you can learn by having two open source projects in your belt that actually build your portfol your first portfolio um so to me that's a space that for design is still a bit not explored too much like there's the open source design uh uh organization and I'm always like go there talk to these people started working on this **[29:10]** project. >> Yeah. It's so it's a lot more obvious and easy for a lot of developers to get involved, but for designers it is >> not as obvious to them to start off with. Yeah. >> Yeah. I think it's a great uh first uh step in the industry to be honest. So >> yeah, and we were having a discussion earlier about how this sort of idea that it's not as glamorous or as shiny or as exciting as a lot of other projects, but really your skill as a designer is making things that work for people and **[29:42]** that are usable. It's not necessarily about all the shiny. >> Yeah. And there's some I think where is Ariel? She's she's there. I was chatting with her the other day and she was telling me, yeah, maybe sometimes if something looks too good is uh it doesn't breathe like open source. No. And I'm like, why don't we change this thing? Let's make open source look great. Like, >> and that's something we get with accessibility a lot of the time as well. People say that if it's accessible, it can't possibly look good. And you just say, well, that is how limited your imagination is as a designer. **[30:12]** >> I hear that so many times like accessibility is just ugly. What? What are you talking about? Yep. Yep. >> Okay. Oh, so this is this can be a fun one to lead on from uh what we were discussing. Let's imagine it is penotfest 2026 and what is one thing you hope every product team or every team is doing differently? I'll go to you first Kina on that one. >> I think is from my from your perspective **[30:46]** is just seek yourself as a lifelong learner uh beyond your role. It's is very important that have you mentioned in the uh keynote yesterday that was the designer and developer facing the challenge like the designer doesn't understand the technical constraints of the developers and also uh in the meantime the developer doesn't understand the design principle of the designers so they will cause a lot of misunderstanding. So if everyone would like to take a step further like they **[31:17]** would like to learn the new things it will help the team to go together and work better. >> Yeah. >> Yes. It's almost about the things that go beyond what your curriculums are teaching and encouraging people to have that mindset. >> Yeah. Even though I'm a good uh curriculum designer but I'm l of the uh experience in uh developer just I I'm not familiar with the programming skills. So I like to find time for me as to learn about the programming and it **[31:49]** can help me to become a more uh uh a better uh cross functional roles that can communicate with the development team while we are having uh different project that can keep the project and keep us smooth conversations. >> Yeah. >> And they often say don't they if you want to really learn about something well you have to teach it. >> Yeah. Because as a designer, you have to play around with different software, know about their futures and know how to integrate those good things into your **[32:20]** curriculum to teach your students. >> Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And so, how about fori penot 2026? What do you wish everyone's doing? >> I have a comment and then I will answer your question. >> Okay. I I'll just a warning for anyone in the Q&A later. If you do the same thing, I'm cutting you off, but you're allowed to. I think in this pimpot I have a huge surprise when I see that everyone know a little bit of accessibility and for me that was like one of my hopes that when **[32:50]** I will be doing something at least I don't need to define what is accessibility so for me it was like whoa >> but in 2026 and I think this is contradicted uh in terms of my side I wish that I cannot need to talk about accessibility to be honest I hate that my job is out in different websites pros and services because they don't apply accessibly my job. It doesn't need to exist. And I know I cutting my legs in terms of the money, but it's the reality like I wish that this has not to be a **[33:22]** topic. >> Yeah. It's no longer a bolt-on that it's integrated into our roles naturally. >> Yep. Exactly. >> Yeah. Gloria, 2026, what should we be doing? >> I I don't know. Are we all retired already? And >> I don't know. >> We wish. Um I guess my a bit anarchctic uh heart wishes uh maybe with I was chatting with Andy earlier about how organizations **[33:53]** have like all these complex uh or charts right with teams and squad at least big companies we have all these organizations and then people keep saying oh we are shipping our org chart. No. Have you heard like this thing? Uh, and there's a lot of effort in uh trying to do like end to end work to not to stop shipping the org chart. And I was telling Andy, I think like we cannot not ship the org chart. Like that's how we work. So just burn the org **[34:26]** chart, right? like like if you start breaking the teams down and mixing people and like creating a fruit salad of different profiles and >> we stop being so protective I think of our roles of our reporting structures of you know no I report to this person I cannot work to this project no like let's try to be less protective of our spaces in favor of yeah let's let's ship our or chart it's fine it's it's our or chart is you completely transversal. So, **[34:59]** I would want a bit more of that, a bit more anarchy and uh team structures and like breaking a bit more shaking a bit the the nest. >> Yeah, that totally follows on from what you were saying earlier about the collaboration being so much easier when you are being more flexible when you're like attuned to each other's needs when you're reaching out and stepping over into other people's roles too. >> Yeah. Absolutely. Okay. Um, I'm going to just slightly switch up the order because I want to try and get at least one question in and then we'll do um **[35:30]** we'll do a little lightning round as a finisher. So, who has the power? We're going to have one or two questions. So, I want really good ones now. I've really put the pressure on as well. Has anybody got a question for our panel? I have a hand over here. >> There's a microphone appearing behind you. >> Can you hear me? >> Yes. Yeah, we can hear you. >> Yeah. Um so thank you all for uh opportunity for uh answering questions wonderful talk so far. Um one of the **[36:02]** things that I was wondering we're heading into a world perhaps right uh for telling like uh people become IC's will become more generalists right designers can accomplish more with engineering tools MCP you know got built into penpot right thinking how do we facilitate collaboration in a world where individuals can can get the work done end to end you know there's like less need to pass it off to someone else I guess when you can both design and **[36:32]** engineer. >> I'm just curious uh yeah what you might think about that future and how we can facilitate >> collaboration. Yeah, I suppose in a world where if you're all generous, can't we all just do everything and get it all done by ourselves? Uh okay, I'll um phrase that to you first, Kina. How do you encourage students to learn a a variety of those skills and where should they stop and how do they collaborate on that? >> So for my side I think it's important **[37:04]** for teachers to know the student limit limitations like you have to set a very structural course structure that uh have uh in each lesson you make sure you have a outcome for student to achieve it. So that allows student to know what they're doing and how to use these two uh collaboratively. Yeah. Yeah. And so I guess in some ways we're looking again at it's this idea of this shared responsibility if people are able **[37:35]** to do things but how I guess in a world with no org charts would we then work out who has responsibility to get stuff finished? Gloria. So I think um when I say that is referring to your the the keynote you you delivered yesterday and with the the tea shape kind of thing uh I think we still need this uh right the spec specialization and people who can have like very very high craft on specific things and when I say like **[38:08]** building end to end and being like I can you know participate in the whole flow it doesn't mean doing like the extra mile in each of the steps, right? is like you can have a first pass or a first draft or a first direction that helps setting vision uh to the team but then you still need a specialist like you would never have someone who can craft like an excellent I don't know icon and and can code all the way uh I don't know like the back end of like uh that would be I mean if **[38:40]** you know someone please send a link but but it's very difficult so you still need to collaborate right in these faces. So this is why I really like the figure of the DRRi. So the the person who drive the project uh that I think in most companies normally is the PM. But I think this again like time to torch these concepts and have designers driving initiatives end to end being the DRRi of an initiative but then still having a specialist in each uh and then **[39:11]** I think it's the responsibility to ensure uh people are collaborating and are talking to each other. >> Yeah. And Leia you and I were talking actually about this very topic yesterday. Um so because you have skills in many different areas as well. Well, how do you end up not ending up doing all the work in your team? Well, um, first of all, I think it's understanding what are the things that you really want to do and what the things you know that you doing really **[39:41]** well because I mean, I love doing art, but I'm super bad drawing, super bad drawing. And I know that somebody else can do it really better than me. and having the trust that I have maybe the idea and I can just give my idea and collaborate with this person because I know that can actually elaborate something better that I can not do it because I don't have the skills necessary. So I think having the trust and also like be mindful that it's cool to share your ideas and and delegate not **[40:14]** delegate just pass the baton and trying to to work around with the things that you have and the other skills the other person has. So it's it's more to actually be so I don't know putting in the other people's shoes and giving you the opportunity to change the way on this perspective of the things that you are doing. >> Yeah. And we have so much to learn from each other especially when we choose not to be control freaks. >> Yes. Yes. Yes. Like for example I have one person in my team that she's amazing with visual design and I remember that **[40:45]** in in one moment a lot of clients start asking like can you help on the UI? And I was like, you know what? I'm not good at that. I'm not good at that. And I was like, you know what? You are the right person to do this. Like, I don't need to do this. You are the person that have the knowledge, the skills, and this is what we need. So, thank you for the fabulous question. We don't have time for any more questions, but of course, we will be hanging around later on. We'll be have time during lunch and networking, and feel free to come up and chat. We're all **[41:15]** friendly. None of us bite. And so to sum up, I think shall we just um we'll have one sentence from each of us. What does better together mean to you right now? I'll go down from one end to the other, Kina. What does better together mean to you? >> For me, it's to embed diversity and building trust. >> Yeah. >> Love it. That's because we come from different countries speaking different languages and but we also come over to **[41:47]** this lovely and wonderful uh partials to share to connect to uh interact together. So we also tracing we are just towards the same goals. How do we work better to make a strong pimple community? So I think diversity is a very beautiful world to depicts the name of ferations. >> Absolutely >> Gloria >> I think I think very similarly to Katina **[42:19]** like having different uh not only skill sets but uh diversity in all aspects yeah in all the things is uh what makes us a better whole I think. So diverse teams please more of that ni >> expansion of opportunities when we work together we can have more reach to do better things >> absolutely and I would agree with that I would say that better together means that we are all better than the sum of **[42:51]** our parts and we can make we can have good individual relationships we can have much better teamwork but we can also start movements when we start working together we can start to really truly make a difference. So, thank you each of you for taking part in this panel. This has been so much fun. Thank you everyone for such a fantastic penot. Thank you to the penot team. We wouldn't be here without you. **[43:23]** And thank you to our host Meda who has done so much work getting this all off the ground. and the folks behind the scenes who aren't up on stage but are really making this all work. Um, thank you. Big round of applause for that lot. [Music] All right. **[43:53]** Thanks.