We Accidentally Deleted Programming (Presented by CodeRabbit)

We Accidentally Deleted Programming (Presented by CodeRabbit) 🔗 **Source:** [We Accidentally Deleted Programming (Presented by CodeRabbit)](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lw3RDlxV_tw) > [!note]+ Document Notes > tags: [ai-development, web-development, developer-tools] > author: Whiskey Web and Whatnot > source: YouTube > reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lw3RDlxV_tw > date created: 2024-12-19 14:20 > > # 🏷️ Title: We Accidentally Deleted Programming (Presented by CodeRabbit) >  ## 🧰 Action Inbox - [H1] Try OpenCode Black waitlist for unlimited AI development — developer tool evaluation #ai-tools - [H2] Implement CSS-only FLIP with anchor positioning — animation technique testing #css-animation - [H3] Evaluate AI-powered code review tools vs traditional TypeScript — development workflow #typescript ## 🧭 Table of Contents - [📝 Summary](#-summary) - [📖 Main Content](#-main-content) - [🗒️ Notes](#️-notes) - [📚 References](#-references) - [🗣️ Paraphrase](#️-paraphrase) - [📰 Newsletter](#-newsletter) - [✅ Action Items](#-action-items) - [🧪 Hypotheses](#-hypotheses) - [📊 Methodology](#-methodology) - [❓ Questions](#-questions) - [🔮 Future Research](#-future-research) - [💡 Implications](#-implications) - [🧠 Learning Styles Assessment](#-learning-styles-assessment) - [📊 Accessibility Assessment](#-accessibility-assessment) - [🌍 DEIB Assessment](#-deib-assessment) - [✅ Logical Validity](#-logical-validity) - [🛡️ DARVO Analysis](#-darvo-analysis) - [🎯 Conclusion](#-conclusion) ### 🔗 References - [OpenCode Black](https://opencode.com) - [CSS Anchor Positioning](https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/CSS/CSS_anchor_positioning) ## 📝 Summary - Whiskey Web and Whatnot discusses the evolution of AI development tools and their impact on programming practices - Covers CSS anchor positioning becoming baseline, new AI coding tools like OpenCode Black, and debates about TypeScript's relevance - Explores the concept of "spec-driven development" where libraries ship instructions for LLMs rather than actual code - Questions whether traditional coding skills matter when AI can generate increasingly sophisticated applications - Discusses trade-offs between different AI coding assistants and their practical applications in large codebases ## 📖 Main Content The hosts explore how AI is fundamentally changing software development, from automated whiskey episode artwork generation to questioning whether TypeScript is still necessary. They discuss the emergence of libraries that ship only specifications for LLMs rather than actual code, suggesting a future where programming knowledge becomes less critical than prompting expertise. Key technical discussions include CSS anchor positioning reaching baseline browser support, enabling pure CSS implementations of complex animations previously requiring JavaScript. They compare various AI coding tools including OpenCode, Cursor, Windsurf, and Warp, evaluating their effectiveness in different scenarios. The conversation touches on controversial topics like whether developers who only use AI prompting should be considered equally valuable to those with deep coding knowledge, and how interview processes might adapt to this new reality. ## 🗒️ Notes #### ⏱️ [00:00](https://youtu.be/lw3RDlxV_tw?t=0) — [H1] Introduction and Whistle Pig Liquid Death Whiskey Review - Key idea: Testing collaborative whiskey made with Liquid Death mountain water - Evidence: "85% wheat and 15% barley... aged in a coffin... 86 proof" #### ⏱️ [08:15](https://youtu.be/lw3RDlxV_tw?t=495) — [H2] AI Automation for Podcast Artwork Generation - Key idea: Automated Swift tool to generate episode artwork from transcripts - Evidence: "Pull the title, show notes, transcripts... take those topics and make them into concrete things you could make an image of" #### ⏱️ [12:30](https://youtu.be/lw3RDlxV_tw?t=750) — [H1] CSS Anchor Positioning Reaches Baseline - Key idea: New CSS features enable JavaScript-free complex animations - Evidence: "Anchor just went baseline in Firefox... I called it AIM - anchor interpolated morph" #### ⏱️ [18:45](https://youtu.be/lw3RDlxV_tw?t=1125) — [H3] Bundle Size Concerns with Svelte 5 - Key idea: Framework updates can negatively impact small library sizes - Evidence: "Svelte 5 increased the bundle size by like 10 kilobytes... went from like 17 to like 28" #### ⏱️ [22:10](https://youtu.be/lw3RDlxV_tw?t=1330) — [H1] Libraries That Ship Only Specifications - Key idea: New paradigm where libraries provide LLM instructions instead of code - Evidence: "Ships no code. It just ships the spec and instructions... works across Elixir and Ruby and Rust" #### ⏱️ [28:30](https://youtu.be/lw3RDlxV_tw?t=1710) — [H2] Hiring Developers Who Only Use AI - Key idea: Debate over whether AI-only developers should be considered valuable - Evidence: "What if someone shows up to the interview and they just... give it to AI and sit back and twiddle their thumbs?" #### ⏱️ [35:20](https://youtu.be/lw3RDlxV_tw?t=2120) — [H1] TypeScript Relevance in AI Era - Key idea: Questioning whether TypeScript provides value when AI handles code generation - Evidence: "What if you spent time investing in guard rails for AI... TypeScript doesn't need to exist" #### ⏱️ [42:15](https://youtu.be/lw3RDlxV_tw?t=2535) — [H2] AI Performance in Large Codebases - Key idea: Current AI tools struggle with complex, multi-file projects - Evidence: "Over a million lines of TypeScript... AI is equally as hindered as a human... it churns" #### ⏱️ [48:45](https://youtu.be/lw3RDlxV_tw?t=2925) — [H3] OpenCode vs Cursor vs Windsurf Comparison - Key idea: Different AI coding tools excel in different scenarios - Evidence: "OpenCode was first to do LSP stuff... better at TypeScript than everyone else" #### ⏱️ [55:30](https://youtu.be/lw3RDlxV_tw?t=3330) — [H2] Multi-Model AI Development - Key idea: Using multiple AI models simultaneously for better results - Evidence: "Pit different AI models against each other... hey Gemini, you do this task. Hey Claude, you do this task" #### ⏱️ [62:10](https://youtu.be/lw3RDlxV_tw?t=3730) — [H1] OpenCode Black and Premium AI Tools - Key idea: Subscription-based unlimited AI development environments - Evidence: "Like their version of Claude Pro but spreads work across whatever model they want" #### ⏱️ [68:20](https://youtu.be/lw3RDlxV_tw?t=4100) — [H3] AI Co-workers and Automation Concerns - Key idea: Full-system AI agents raise privacy and control concerns - Evidence: "Has file system access... I am not ready for this thing to be reading all of my stuff" ## 📚 References - [CSS Anchor Positioning MDN](https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/CSS/CSS_anchor_positioning) - [OpenCode AI Development Tool](https://opencode.com) - [Svelte Framework](https://svelte.dev) - [FLIP Animation Technique by Paul Lewis](https://aerotwist.com/blog/flip-your-animations/) ## 🗣️ Paraphrase - AI development tools are rapidly evolving, with some developers questioning whether traditional coding skills remain necessary when AI can generate sophisticated applications from prompts alone - CSS is gaining powerful new features like anchor positioning that eliminate the need for JavaScript in complex animations, representing a shift toward more native web capabilities - The development community is split on whether TypeScript provides sufficient value to justify migration costs, especially when AI guard rails might provide similar protection against common errors ## 📰 Newsletter **AI Development Tools: Evolution or Revolution?** The latest Whiskey Web and Whatnot episode dives deep into how AI is reshaping web development practices. From libraries that ship only specifications for LLMs to debates about TypeScript's future relevance, we're witnessing fundamental changes in how we approach software development. **Key Takeaways:** - CSS anchor positioning is now baseline, enabling JavaScript-free complex animations - New AI tools like OpenCode Black offer unlimited development assistance through subscription models - The industry is questioning whether traditional coding expertise remains as valuable as AI prompting skills **WordPress Connections:** Consider how these trends might impact WordPress development - from AI-generated themes and plugins to automated code reviews that could enhance security and maintainability. Resources: [Learn WordPress](https://learn.wordpress.org/), [Developer Docs](https://developer.wordpress.org/), [WP-CLI](https://wp-cli.org/) ## ✅ Action Items #### DevRel - Developer advocacy: Create content comparing AI coding tools for different use cases, focusing on practical productivity gains - Education: Develop workshops on prompt engineering for developers, including multi-model workflows - Developer experience: Evaluate AI tool integration with existing development workflows and documentation systems - Developer marketing: Position AI-augmented development as enhancement rather than replacement of traditional skills - Community management: Facilitate discussions about AI ethics and best practices in development communities #### OSPO - Policy & Governance: Develop guidelines for AI-generated code contributions and intellectual property considerations - License Compliance: Review AI tool usage policies and ensure compatibility with open source license requirements - Security Management: Assess security implications of AI tools with file system access and code generation capabilities - Software Inventory: Track AI tool dependencies and their impact on software supply chain security - Developer Support: Provide training on responsible AI tool usage and integration with existing development practices - Community Engagement: Engage with AI tool vendors on open source integration and contribution policies - Strategic Alignment: Align AI tool adoption with organizational security and compliance requirements #### Community - Maintainers: Establish protocols for reviewing AI-generated contributions and maintaining code quality standards - Contributors: Create onboarding materials for contributors using AI tools, emphasizing human oversight requirements - Sponsors: Evaluate funding for AI tool subscriptions and infrastructure to support developer productivity - Ecosystem: Coordinate cross-project standards for AI tool usage and code attribution practices #### WordPress - Core: Evaluate AI tools for code review, testing, and migration assistance in large codebase maintenance - Core Performance: Use AI for automated performance analysis and optimization suggestions - Core AI: Develop guidelines for AI integration within WordPress core, focusing on user privacy and transparency - Core Program Team: Establish workflows incorporating AI tools while maintaining human oversight and decision-making - Mobile: Explore AI-assisted mobile app development and testing automation - Playground: Implement AI-powered learning experiences and code generation tutorials - Community: Create resources for community members to effectively use AI development tools - Training: Develop curriculum balancing traditional development skills with AI-augmented workflows - Marketing: Communicate WordPress's approach to AI integration in development processes - Support: Evaluate AI chatbots and automation for developer support and documentation assistance - Design: Explore AI-generated design assets while maintaining brand consistency and accessibility - Documentation: Use AI for documentation generation and maintenance, with human review processes - Photos: Implement AI-powered image processing and metadata generation workflows - TV: Explore AI-generated captions and content indexing for video resources - Polyglots: Evaluate AI translation assistance while preserving cultural context and accuracy - Accessibility: Use AI for automated accessibility testing and remediation suggestions - Meta: Assess AI tool integration with WordPress.org infrastructure and development workflows - CLI: Explore AI-powered command suggestion and automation capabilities - Hosting: Develop AI-assisted hosting optimization and troubleshooting tools - Tide: Implement AI-powered code quality analysis and security scanning - Openverse: Use AI for content moderation and metadata enhancement - Themes: Evaluate AI tools for theme review process automation and quality assessment - Plugins: Implement AI-assisted security scanning and compatibility testing #### The WPCC - Programs: Fund developer training programs focused on AI-augmented WordPress development - Projects: Support projects exploring responsible AI integration in WordPress ecosystem - Funding: Provide grants for AI tool subscriptions and training resources for underrepresented developers #### FAIR - Technical independence: Ensure AI tool adoption doesn't create vendor lock-in or compromise project autonomy - Policies: Develop transparent policies for AI tool usage and code attribution in open source projects - Governance artifacts: Create governance frameworks for AI-assisted development and contribution processes ## 🧪 Hypotheses - Developers who combine traditional coding knowledge with AI tools will be more effective than those who rely solely on either approach - CSS anchor positioning will significantly reduce JavaScript bundle sizes in modern web applications within the next two years - TypeScript adoption rates will plateau or decline as AI tools provide alternative error prevention mechanisms - Libraries that ship specifications instead of code will become prevalent in AI-first development environments ### 📊 Methodology - Study design: Longitudinal analysis comparing development velocity and code quality across different AI tool adoption levels - Data sources: Developer surveys, code repository analysis, and performance metrics from teams using various AI development approaches - Experiments: A/B testing of TypeScript vs AI guard rails in similar development scenarios, measuring bug rates and development speed ### ❓ Questions - How will traditional computer science education adapt to an AI-first development world? - What safeguards are needed to prevent over-reliance on AI tools compromising code understanding and maintainability? - How can the industry balance AI productivity gains with the need for human expertise and oversight? ### 🔮 Future Research - Long-term impact of AI-generated code on software maintainability and technical debt - Effectiveness of multi-model AI approaches versus single-model solutions in complex development scenarios - Economic implications of AI tool subscription costs on development team budgets and project viability ### 💡 Implications - Practice: Development workflows will need to integrate multiple AI tools while maintaining human oversight and decision-making authority - Policy: Organizations must establish clear guidelines for AI tool usage, code ownership, and intellectual property considerations - Security: AI tools with file system access require robust security policies and monitoring to prevent data exposure - Education: Developer training programs need to balance traditional programming fundamentals with AI-augmented development skills - Funding: Development budgets will need to account for AI tool subscriptions and the infrastructure required to support them effectively ### 🧠 Learning Styles Assessment Reading level estimate: 12th Grade (Flesch-Kincaid Grade Level) #### 👀 Visual learners - Present: Discussion of UI changes, visual debugging, and animation effects - Improve: Screen recordings of AI tools in action, comparison charts of different coding assistants #### 🔊 Aural learners - Present: Podcast format with verbal explanations and discussions - Improve: Audio summaries of key technical concepts, pronunciation guides for technical terms #### 🗣️ Verbal learners - Present: Extensive use of analogies (farming, art creation), clear definitions of technical terms - Improve: More structured vocabulary building, comparison frameworks for different tools #### 🧩 Kinesthetic learners - Present: Hands-on tool comparisons and practical development examples - Improve: Step-by-step setup guides, interactive tutorials for each AI tool discussed #### 🧠 Logical learners - Present: Systematic comparison of pros/cons, logical arguments about tool effectiveness - Improve: Decision trees for tool selection, performance metrics and benchmarks #### 🧑‍🤝‍🧑 Social learners - Present: Community discussion format, shared experiences and opinions - Improve: Comment integration, community polls on tool preferences, collaborative tutorials #### 🧘‍♀️ Solitary learners - Present: Individual tool evaluation and personal workflow optimization - Improve: Self-assessment questionnaires, personal productivity tracking templates #### 🌿 Naturalistic learners - Present: Evolution metaphors for tool development, ecosystem thinking about AI tools - Improve: More connections to natural systems, lifecycle thinking about technology adoption ### 📊 Accessibility Assessment #### Screen reader semantics - Present: Podcast format is inherently accessible to screen readers - Improve: Provide detailed show notes with proper heading structure, transcript with speaker identification #### Keyboard navigation - Present: Audio content doesn't require keyboard navigation - Improve: Ensure any supplementary web content follows keyboard accessibility standards #### Contrast and readability - Present: Audio format eliminates visual contrast concerns - Improve: Any visual materials should meet WCAG AA standards for color contrast #### Text resizing and --- ## Full Transcript [00:02] Welcome to syntax. Welcome to a brand [00:04] new episode of the frontend happy hour [00:06] podcast. Welcome to this week's JS Party [00:12] >> live from Ship Shape Studios. This is [00:15] Whiskey Web and Whatnot with your hosts [00:18] Robbie the Wagner and me, Charles [00:21] William Carpenter III. [00:23] That's right, Charles. We drink whiskey [00:25] and talk about web development. I mean, [00:28] it's all in the name. It's not that [00:29] deep. This is whiskey web and whatnot. [00:32] Do not adjust your set. [00:36] As more and more code is generated, [00:38] developers end up spending more time [00:39] reading and reviewing code. This creates [00:41] an issue on reliably shipping quality [00:43] code. So even though AI is promising, a [00:45] lack of proper guardrails can slow down [00:46] teams. Code Rabbit is an AI code [00:48] reviewer. Unlike AI code generators like [00:51] Cursor, Windsurf, or GitHub Copilot, it [00:53] reasons and submits feedback on your [00:55] codebase while you raise a pull request [00:56] to merge code into your VCS. Code Rabbit [00:59] is a self-improving agent and it learns [01:01] from your interactions and creates [01:02] learnings. Code Rabbit generates [01:04] one-click commit suggestions for some [01:06] review comments, making it easy for [01:08] developers to address review comments. [01:10] Code Rabbit is used by 100,000 open- [01:12] source projects like BU and Nex.js, and [01:14] it's installed on 2 million repositories [01:16] so far. It's also performed more than 15 [01:18] million PR reviews. [01:22] Hey, what's up everybody? Welcome to [01:24] Whiskey, Web, and Whatnot with your [01:27] hosts Robbie the Wagner and Adam Thomas [01:29] Argyle the Nerd. [01:31] >> What's up y'all? I'm feeling good. How [01:33] are you? [01:34] >> I am good as well. It is once again [01:37] margarita Thursday, which I just call it [01:39] this to make my wife upset because it is [01:42] clearly either thirsty Thursday or [01:44] margarita Monday, but I like to do the [01:46] dumb one that doesn't make any sense. [01:48] Oh, nice. We do uh Woody Wednesdays. We [01:50] go to Little Woodies and then we used to [01:52] do like Fridays. Now that was really [01:55] stretchy, you know. [01:58] >> Now I just love it. [01:59] >> Pizza and Pokemon. That one always [02:01] stayed good. It's not a Friday, but [02:02] Friday doesn't start with P. It's okay. [02:04] >> Yeah. Yeah, these things are hard. All [02:07] right, so I'm excited for the whiskey we [02:09] have today. This is a special edition. [02:12] Where's my camera at? Whistle Pig Liquid [02:15] Death collaboration. I'm a big Liquid [02:17] Death fan. I really like their uh Dr. [02:19] Pepper flavor. I forget what they call [02:21] it. Dr. Death, maybe. [02:22] >> I should try that. I love Dr. Pepper. [02:24] >> Yeah. So, this is a wheat whiskey. It is [02:27] 85% wheat and 15% barley. They use [02:31] liquid death mountain water to proof it [02:33] down, which like hopefully they got a [02:35] discount on it because liquid death is [02:37] not cheap. They're like popping all the [02:39] cans and pouring them in there. Um, [02:42] yeah, it's 86 proof. I don't know what [02:44] the age is, but like you get the idea. [02:47] Liquid death collaboration. Looks cool. [02:50] M. Smells sweet. [02:52] Smells fruity. [02:55] Yummy. Okay. Yeah. I can never tell. [02:59] Like sometimes there's a little funk and [03:01] I can't tell if like my glass is dirty [03:04] or [03:05] >> it's got stuff in there. Yeah. [03:07] >> Yeah. Shouldn't have mixed similac in my [03:10] uh nice northern glass. Why' I do that? [03:15] >> Yeah, I do. I feel like I smell [03:17] strawberry. Strawberry cinnamon perhaps. [03:19] I'm going to taste it. [03:21] >> Oh man, I'm getting like a berry medley. [03:23] It's nice. Really light spice. Smooth [03:26] and soft. That is yummy. Uh coating of [03:31] my tongue from the front to the back. So [03:32] I got like the spice and then just the [03:34] the saturation as it spreads across. [03:38] Yum. This is very good. I guess maybe [03:40] some of the similar notes that I like [03:42] from rise maybe come through in this cuz [03:44] it's all like uh grains and I guess is [03:47] corn a grain? No, I guess [03:49] >> it is not. [03:50] >> Yeah. So like it doesn't have corn. [03:51] >> I don't know. [03:52] >> Which I feel like makes it uh tastier [03:55] like taking the corn out. M [03:58] >> I'm glad there's still some spice. I [04:00] always like a little spicy bite. And [04:02] then uh it's pretty low on the proof. Do [04:04] you do you pay for proof? Like do are [04:06] you like oh if I'm going to spend money [04:08] it better be high proof. Do you do you [04:10] care about that? Is is that what [04:12] >> No. No. I just care about [04:14] >> Yeah. I care about interesting things [04:16] and it being like if the distiller wants [04:18] me to try it at 135 proof or whatever [04:21] like okay like I'm down but I'm not [04:24] seeking that out. I I usually like it to [04:26] be a little higher than like uh 80 proof [04:29] or whatever. Like whatever the standard [04:31] is. So this is a little bit higher, I [04:32] think. Right. It was Yeah. 86. So it's [04:34] got a little more burn. Um but yeah, I [04:36] think it's very balanced. Like doesn't [04:38] burn too much. Nice spice, fruity notes. [04:42] Pretty good. [04:43] >> Pretty good. I'm happy. So yeah. What [04:45] What's your rating? [04:47] >> Scale. Do you do you remember what our [04:49] scale is? [04:50] >> 0 to eight. If it's zero, you're like, [04:52] throw that [ __ ] away. If it's an eight, [04:54] you're like, "Clear the shelves. I want [04:55] this forever. Just put it in my belly." [04:58] Uh, and then, you know, anything in the [04:59] middle. Um, yeah. What you got? [05:02] >> Um, yeah. I don't have anything bad to [05:05] say about it. Uh, but it also is maybe [05:08] not like my favorite one ever. It's so [05:09] hard. We've had so many. I'm just going [05:11] to say flat 7. Flat seven. Solid. I was [05:14] thinking six, six and a half cuz Yeah, [05:16] it's uh solid. I like it. I will have it [05:20] again. I do like that it's kind of soft [05:22] and sweet. It has a maybe that's the low [05:24] it's the low proof is probably the [05:25] softness and the mountain water. [05:27] >> And the mountain water. Yeah, that that [05:29] matters. Oh. Oh, I was reading about [05:31] this too. Um, it was uh aged in a [05:35] coffin. [05:36] >> Wait, was it really? [05:37] >> It was really So, they started out in an [05:39] American oak like regular barrel, but [05:42] they move it from a barrel into a [05:44] coffin. [05:46] >> Uh, which is why it has the uh coffin [05:49] symbol on it and it's called gravetock. [05:51] So that's why it's called gravetock is [05:52] there's an American oak coffin. [05:54] >> Oh yeah. [05:55] >> That apparent and they're like teasing [05:56] that [05:57] >> final months resting in peace in a [05:59] 380galon charred American oak casket and [06:02] was proofed with liquid death mountain [06:04] water. Wow. [06:07] Okay. [06:09] >> I like it dedication to detail. [06:12] >> Yeah. [06:13] Money to burn. [06:16] Oh, dude. Speaking of like death and and [06:19] American wood here, check out this banjo [06:21] I bought myself for my 40th birthday [06:23] here. It's already beat up a zombie. [06:28] >> Nice. Love it. [06:29] >> Covered in blood. It's covered in little [06:31] zombie icons. Uh there's like a [06:34] >> knife through his head there. There's [06:35] someone's foot. Uh it's called the [06:37] zombie killer. And it is very cool. [06:40] Here, let's see. Oh, I don't ever play [06:43] this way, so it's weird. I'm going to [06:44] try to play Mario. [06:47] Nope. I'm not going to be able to do it [06:48] standing here like that. [06:51] >> Hey, it sounds good. [06:53] >> It does sound good. It's great. [06:54] >> Having only heard you play banjo like [06:57] lowfi trying to throw it up against the [06:59] mic. I feel like this one sounds better [07:01] than the other one you had. [07:03] >> Cool. I'm hoping this is my heirloom. [07:05] Like dad's dead, but don't worry, we've [07:06] got his zombie killer uh banjo, so he'll [07:09] live on forever with that sick banjo. [07:11] It'd be cool if they like reinforced it [07:13] where the like splatters are so you [07:15] could like actually hit it on stuff and [07:17] it'd be fine. [07:19] >> That would be cool. Did you see the saw [07:21] that was around the edge, too? So, the [07:22] ring, there's like a tone ring, but [07:24] around the ring is a saw like straight [07:26] up edges of a saw. It's super cool. [07:28] >> That sounds dangerous. Yeah. Cut my [07:31] finger. Ah, [07:32] I should put some of my real blood on [07:34] there just cuz if it's a heirloom. [07:36] >> Oh, man. I used to bleed on my guitar so [07:38] much when I would play shows because I [07:40] would like hit hit it wrong and catch my [07:42] like nail or something and just Oh yeah. [07:44] >> be just pouring blood all over the [07:46] guitar for like [07:48] >> Yeah. [07:49] >> Yeah. Yeah. We have to find some [07:50] recordings of of you uh in some bands [07:52] cuz I I was saying we should do I don't [07:54] know if we get Chuck or somebody else to [07:56] do it, but we need people to listen to [07:58] like a little bit of band I was in, a [08:00] little bit of a band you were in. See if [08:01] they can say who was who. I think that'd [08:03] be a fun game. I mean, I feel like it's [08:05] going to be kind of obvious, but I don't [08:06] know. Maybe people don't know the past [08:08] emo me, and they'll be like, "Who's this [08:10] young kid singing?" [08:13] >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, if you if you don't [08:15] know like which uh part of the band you [08:18] were, I guess is like maybe [08:20] >> Oh, so you didn't sing. Okay. Okay. [08:22] That's cool. [08:23] >> Well, I did do some singing. Um but like [08:26] Yeah. So, we'll see. We'll see. We got [08:30] to uh finish the developer band as well [08:34] sometime. [08:35] >> I want to [08:35] >> so many things on the stinking to-do [08:37] list. It drives me nuts. My to-do list [08:39] is so big. There's like stuff on there [08:41] that I'm like, I would like to get to [08:42] that. And I'm like, yeah, but there's [08:43] stuff I haven't done for the past 3 days [08:45] that I need to do. So, [08:47] >> yeah, [08:47] >> I'll be an adult, I guess. Um [08:51] >> Yep. That's what I unfortunately pick on [08:54] the daily, but uh maybe one day we won't [08:56] have to pick that. Well, I like the uh [08:58] the irony that I I texted you, too. It's [09:00] like, "We need to spend some time [09:01] automating AI to do some of our tasks so [09:04] that we can have more time." And I'm [09:06] like, "Wait, that's a chicken and egg." [09:07] I'm like, "If I don't have the time, I [09:10] can't create the automations to save me [09:11] the time." I'm like, [09:13] >> agents are great for that cuz like they [09:15] might not get it for me every time, but [09:17] I can at least be like, "Hey, I'd like [09:18] this." And then come back later and if [09:20] it happened to do it, then I've got it. [09:22] Like, um, I did that. [09:24] >> Tell me about Claude Co-work. Yeah. Did [09:26] you try that? [09:27] >> I have not. But uh before we jump into [09:29] that, I just wanted to say like uh I [09:31] have I've automated one thing now and [09:33] it's not 100% automated, but I made um [09:36] this thing. I was like, "Hey, uh I think [09:38] I used warp on this one, not open code, [09:40] cuz open code had the thing where you [09:41] can't use your claw tokens anymore." [09:44] >> Um [09:45] >> rugpool. Rugpull. Yeah. [09:46] >> Yeah. Um but I was using uh warp and I [09:49] was like, "Hey, um build me this thing." [09:51] I It can be Swift because like it's just [09:54] going to be me that uses it, so it can [09:55] be Mac only. I don't care. Um, I want to [09:58] put in a link to a whiskey.fm episode [10:02] and I want you to pull the title, the [10:05] show notes, and the transcripts. Pull [10:07] like five to 10 topics. Then take those [10:11] topics and make them into like concrete [10:14] things you could make an image of, not [10:16] just like React hooks like like [10:19] something that's like uh a React hook [10:21] doing it. like I don't know like make it [10:22] like a thing that could be drawn then [10:25] give it all back and like give me an [10:28] image that I can use as the art for the [10:30] episode cuz I'm trying to make like I [10:31] spend too much time on those for no [10:33] reason so I'm like [10:34] >> they're super cool dude it's not no [10:35] reason I love those things every single [10:37] one of them I'm like dude the TLC in [10:39] this is awesome [10:40] >> yeah but like I don't have the time for [10:42] that so they might get less good they'll [10:44] they'll probably have less people in [10:45] them and be more topic based um because [10:48] I used to like try to describe the [10:49] person that was in the episode and have [10:51] it draw what they would look like or [10:53] whatever. [10:54] >> Um, but now I'm just going to be like, [10:56] "Hey, what do we talk about?" Like, [10:57] boom, we got it. Like, better than [10:59] having no art, for sure. So, I'm trying [11:00] that out. Working okay so far. Cool. [11:03] I've used uh Warp to create an [11:05] automation for me on my personal blog so [11:07] that every time I drop an image into the [11:09] image folder, it sends it through my I [11:11] have like two phases of processing that [11:13] I do as well as generate the front [11:16] matter for me. So, that was like a [11:17] really cool one to give to AI cuz the [11:19] ins and outs are so clear. Um, [11:22] >> and then I saw something this last week [11:23] too that I was very impressed by, which [11:25] is someone was um [11:28] making a whole website, a a data driven [11:30] entire website. So, let's say you've got [11:33] uh let's just pick music. You want to do [11:35] a website for the top 20 songs of 2026, [11:38] whatever. Okay? [11:39] >> So, you go get the data, you stick it in [11:42] uh you start a markdown file, and you're [11:44] basically you build out this pretty [11:45] large prompt. It's almost like a big [11:47] PRD, but in the middle of the PRD, this [11:50] person stuck a API key to Korea and to [11:55] um Gemini Nano Banana and said, "Hey, I [11:59] I have no media for this site. Use these [12:03] keys and create images that are engaging [12:06] and um you know, help with the site or [12:10] whatever." And then they took this [12:11] humongous prompt which uh and yeah [12:13] generated images for the whole thing [12:15] which was anyway I thought that was cool [12:16] but they pitted it against a Ralph loop [12:18] um versus not a Ralph loop and the Ralph [12:22] loop um was arguably not as good [12:25] although it was really splitting. Some [12:26] people were like the Ralph loop one is [12:28] better and I was like I kind of liked [12:29] the first one better. They were both [12:31] really good though. The PRD was just so [12:32] well written with all these little [12:34] details like I'm saying about like the [12:35] image uh generation and these API keys. [12:38] I was very impressed. Also very [12:41] intimidated. I was like, "Oh geez, this [12:44] site looks awesome and it got made for [12:46] this person within minutes." I'm like, [12:47] "Crap." [12:49] Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think sites [12:52] everything is doing better and better [12:53] at. I think images are still kind of hit [12:55] or miss. Like it especially if you tell [12:57] it not to do a thing because if you've [12:59] said the words, if you're like, "Do not [13:02] put facial hair on this person." is [13:04] like, "Well, you said the words facial [13:05] hair, so I'm going to put so much facial [13:07] hair." Like, you can't tell it not to. [13:09] You have to describe what you want and [13:10] just omit the things you don't want or [13:13] it will freak out. Um, but yeah, the [13:15] next thing I want to build is like, [13:18] >> um, we need a thumbnail generator. So, [13:20] there's one built in to Riverside, which [13:22] I've been trying um for like YouTube [13:24] thumbnails to be like like, you know, [13:27] like you need just the random guy with [13:29] the weird face like and a title. Um, and [13:32] so it's been doing those and it won't [13:34] change the text. I even asked it was [13:36] like, "Can you like make the text not [13:38] just the first word highlighted in [13:40] yellow and then the rest black and like [13:43] give me different fonts and do different [13:44] stuff." I was like, "Oh, absolutely. I [13:45] have full control over that." And I was [13:47] like, "Cool. Can you like change it to [13:48] this?" And it was like, "Cool. I did [13:49] it." And it was still the same thing. I [13:51] was like, "Clearly someone has baked [13:52] this into your like base knowledge [13:54] somewhere." [13:55] >> Hey, that's that AI harness stuff. We've [13:57] talked about that. It was like Grock. I [13:58] was Hey, Grock. I want you to make me a [14:00] meme. make me a spicy meme that pisses [14:01] off developers, you know, like uh I know [14:04] you know what makes people mad and is is [14:07] spicy. Do it. And it um it was like [14:10] hooks. It had some comment about hooks [14:12] and then um it couldn't even spell react [14:14] right uh in the image it made. I'm like, [14:18] "Ah, you're so stupid. This is bad." [14:20] >> Yeah. Yeah. Anything like that there [14:23] isn't a ton of source material on it has [14:25] trouble with, too. Like what I did a I [14:28] had had a tweet series for like I don't [14:30] know if I was trying to do one a day or [14:31] one a week or whatever it was. It was [14:33] unsustainable. I was trying to do like [14:35] dad jokes about programming and I was [14:37] like all right AI I've got like 10 [14:40] pretty good ones here like can you [14:41] understand like how I did these and like [14:44] try to use the same sort of [14:46] >> patterns pattern matcher. Yeah. [14:48] >> Yeah. And it was like Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. [14:49] And it gave me like a bunch more and [14:51] they were all awful. So I was like, "Oh [14:54] god." All right. There's just not enough [14:55] people making dad jokes about [14:57] programming. I feel like so [14:58] >> Oh jeez. Um I tried to give a layup to [15:01] So this is Yeah. I like to describe this [15:03] as giving a layup to AI. You're like, [15:04] "Hey, AI, I'm spelling out everything." [15:07] You You're smart, right? Use your [15:09] intelligence to learn from what I just [15:10] taught you and and it's like it never [15:13] works. [15:14] >> Um so one of the things I have on the [15:15] agenda here to talk about is uh AIM. Um [15:19] which is just a trendy. It's not even [15:21] treasure. Yeah. Hey, what's your aim [15:23] handle? Um, I'm trying to Well, I [15:26] succeeded. Do you know what flip is? Um, [15:28] from that was made by Paul Lewis, the [15:31] acronym first last invert play. Have you [15:33] heard this? [15:34] >> I don't think so. [15:36] >> It was a way for you in JavaScript to [15:38] take an element that needs to it's like [15:40] in line in the page and now you're going [15:42] to make it fixed position like over [15:44] here. Uh, so if you're listening [15:46] everybody, I I'm holding my hands up in [15:48] two different places and one hand is [15:50] closed and one hand is open. All right. [15:51] So, anyway, there's like an element [15:53] needs to go into two states. Uh, and [15:55] they're both [15:56] >> Tell me about sprites. Is one sprite [15:58] entering? [15:59] >> Uh, yeah. Oh, sprites. [16:01] >> No, I'm sorry to derail you. Keep going. [16:03] >> Oh, it's all good. Okay, so you got [16:05] element number one and you you like [16:07] click it and it needs to morph to the [16:09] position uh in position number two. And [16:12] it's not two different elements. It's [16:13] the same element needing to exist in two [16:15] different layouts. And you want to [16:16] animate it between these things. and you [16:17] want it to be a CSS transition so that [16:19] it's like interruptible and stuff like [16:20] that. Okay, so Paul Lewis comes up with [16:22] this uh awesome simple way to do it [16:25] called flip. And the F in flip is for [16:27] first you take the element where it is [16:29] in the closed state um at the beginning [16:31] and you take a it's not a picture but [16:33] you get its bounding um qualities. You [16:36] get like what's its top and its left? [16:37] What's its height and its width? What [16:38] are all these different properties [16:39] about? What's its background color? And [16:42] then you do the L, which is last. you [16:44] actually put it into the new layout [16:47] instantly um by just setting the [16:49] properties and causing reflow. So then [16:51] it goes into that end position. You take [16:53] your uh measurements again and then you [16:55] invert it which means you put it back to [16:57] the first position and now that you know [16:59] the first and then end position you can [17:01] interpolate between the two states and [17:03] you get this really nice morph effect [17:04] with JavaScript in a CSS transition. [17:07] David Corid who we just had on a show [17:09] recently has done a ton of flip. He [17:10] wrote an article on CSS. Flip is a very [17:13] cool technique for very dynamic, [17:15] meaningful morph transitions. And I last [17:17] week figured out how to do it all in CSS [17:20] using anchor positioning, uh, [17:23] interpolate size, and oh crap, there's [17:26] one more feature. Oh, starting style. [17:29] >> And so I did this. [17:31] >> Yeah. Well, I called it AIM stands for [17:33] anchor interpolated morph because the [17:36] okay, so if you think about it's like a [17:37] the first part was uh finding out the [17:39] measurements of the element, its height [17:41] and its width and its position. Anchor [17:42] can do that. You just set that first [17:44] element. You're like, "Hey, you're an [17:45] anchor uh element." And so now anything [17:48] else can like know the positions and [17:50] bounds of that of that element. And then [17:53] you can take the next element which is [17:54] just in its natural resting place uh and [17:56] then say starting style start your [17:58] styles from where this other other [18:00] element exists. So I'm able to make [18:02] these elements morph from any element in [18:04] anywhere on the screen uh using CSS [18:07] because I can use anchor to measure [18:08] where they are. They know where they are [18:10] naturally and then they can like morph [18:12] from that position. Anyway, it was [18:14] really cool. So I'm like figuring out [18:15] how to do uh flip with CSS uh and [18:18] anchor. So Anker is really cool and [18:19] anchor just went baseline in Firefox. [18:21] So, [18:22] >> I was just about to ask, is it supported [18:24] everywhere yet? [18:25] >> Uh, I mean, it's not like we can use it. [18:26] It's so funny. All these cool things [18:28] come out. I'm like, at work, I can't use [18:29] it. Even Even when it's baseline at [18:30] work, I'm like, I it's I have to support [18:32] it. [18:33] >> Oh, cuz because of older stuff. So, I [18:35] >> Yeah, for me it's like supported [18:37] everywhere. I don't give a [ __ ] about [18:39] the older stuff. Like, if if the newest [18:40] browser that's not like a Canary [18:42] supports it, ship that. Like, [18:45] >> nice. Well, so you're Yeah, big fan [18:46] baseline. My site kind of does that. [18:48] Well, my site will early adopt all sorts [18:50] of things. I'm willing to manage two [18:51] versions or even just have a lame [18:53] version and then a dope one. I'm like [18:55] that's that's cool with me. But at work [18:57] we uh we can't do that. It's like it [18:59] can't be broken. [19:01] >> Uh [19:01] >> yeah, work is different. I'm talking [19:02] about my personal stuff. I even did like [19:04] brley before it worked and like [19:06] everything like Chrome was the only [19:08] thing I think and I was like hey it's [19:09] way smaller going to ship it like [19:11] >> that's awesome. [19:13] >> Yeah cuz like there's not that many [19:15] people coming to my personal site or [19:16] whatever. So, I'm like the people that [19:18] are are probably developers on like the [19:20] latest Chrome. Like, it doesn't doesn't [19:22] matter. Um, [19:24] >> but yeah, I'm excited for the anchor [19:26] stuff because I've been wanting to use [19:28] that. Um, like you can't do everything [19:31] just yet. You're going to need like some [19:33] polyfills or extra code or whatever to [19:36] support like we're using a floating UI [19:39] um in Shephard to do like basically what [19:43] anchor stuff does. Um, [19:44] >> yeah. And I would like to replace that [19:47] because it is big and it is like the [19:49] biggest part of the uh the library as of [19:52] right now. [19:53] >> It's also badass. But yeah. [19:55] >> Oh, it's great. Yeah. No shade on them. [19:57] I just like you know in the chase or not [19:59] chase race two the smallest libraries. [20:02] Um I'm trying to do that. And also I [20:04] might replace spelt with solid because [20:07] okay spelt 5 for whatever reason and [20:09] Rich has not helped me with this. So, [20:10] Rich, if you hear this, uh, maybe we can [20:12] make it better, but like it it increased [20:15] the bundle size by like 10 kilobytes or [20:17] something. Um, [20:19] >> like it went from like 17 to like 28 or [20:22] like I guess [20:23] >> four to five. It went up. [20:24] >> Yeah. Mhm. And so I think what he was [20:28] saying is like the the way Felt 5 works [20:30] is [20:32] like the base part like u I don't go I [20:36] can't think of words. the like uh the [20:38] main part you're shipping like the [20:39] little what do you call that? The core [20:41] the core the core is like bigger um but [20:44] then each component is smaller and since [20:46] we have like five components we don't [20:48] benefit from that because like [20:50] >> it's like if you had a like a thousand [20:53] component app then you'd be like oh my [20:55] god it's so much smaller because like [20:57] each component is smaller but we have [20:59] five components and so like it's not [21:02] smaller cuz the core is bigger which I [21:04] think is what we're hitting. Um, we are [21:06] also still using the like legacy don't [21:09] use this classes thing because like [21:12] >> Yeah, [21:12] >> because it's uh it won't let you send a [21:16] reference to an element back out still. [21:19] So, I need some magic from someone who [21:21] knows how to do that to fix that. Um, [21:24] but I was like, "Yo, AI, um, this is [21:26] pretty well tested. You want to convert [21:29] it to solid for me?" And it was like, [21:31] "Dope." And it did. And it was back to [21:33] like the size of spelt 4. And I was [21:34] like, hm, could ship like [21:39] so, um, I'm interested, but I I don't [21:41] want to like I like philosophically like [21:44] spelt, so I don't want to like move away [21:46] from spelt because just because like I [21:48] want to make for sure that it's like [21:50] what I have to do before I do it. [21:52] >> Yeah, good call. You know, the it kind [21:54] of goes into one of our other topics. [21:55] It's like you want to make the smallest [21:57] library. How about your library doesn't [22:00] even ship code? [22:02] >> Yeah. See, [22:04] did you see this post I put in the [22:05] Discord [22:07] >> as an article somebody wrote? [22:09] >> No. Or how would if it doesn't ship [22:11] code, what does it do? [22:13] >> Well, let's let's talk about that. They [22:15] ship the specs and um all the [22:19] expectations. [22:20] >> So, it's basically shipping instructions [22:23] for an LLM. So, here's the thing. this [22:25] person shipped a library that basically [22:26] does relative dates, you know, like 5 [22:29] seconds ago or 20 20 days ago, and it's [22:31] all localized. It does all it does all [22:33] the things like a huge date functions [22:35] library would do. However, it ships no [22:38] code. It just ships the the great spec [22:42] and instructions and expectations so [22:45] that an LLM can do it in any language. [22:47] And so this person's like, I made a [22:49] library that works across Elixir and [22:52] Ruby and uh Rust and whatever because [22:56] it's not uh it didn't prescribe to a [22:59] language. It just is a spec. [23:01] >> And I thought this was super interesting [23:03] because I'm I'm very prospect driven [23:05] development. [23:06] >> Yeah. [23:06] >> And this was the first time I saw [23:07] somebody kind of do it at a micro level [23:09] where they're like, "Oh yeah, I'll just [23:11] ship all this stuff as a light." And I'm [23:12] like, "This is kind of awesome." Um, the [23:15] only thing that's like there are [23:17] downsides to it. Like you can't really [23:18] log bugs against the library, which also [23:21] maybe that's an upside. I'm like, "Oh, [23:22] no one can log bugs against me. That [23:24] [ __ ] rules." Well, you still could. I [23:26] mean, it's not a like, you know, uh, [23:29] can't read whatever of undefined bug, [23:31] but it's like, [23:32] >> yeah, [23:33] >> um, you know, the spec is maybe a little [23:35] wrong in this spot. Like I want to [23:36] reward it like [23:37] >> add some tests for this case that the AI [23:40] keeps screwing up. Yeah. [23:42] >> Yeah. So, I think I think that's where [23:44] we're going because like um people are [23:47] already like not even interviewing with [23:48] code at all. They're just like, "Hey, [23:50] show me how you can prompt and like [23:52] let's see how productive you can be. I [23:54] don't care how you do it." Um Jake, [23:57] >> yep, Shopify is revamping and updating [24:00] their interview stuff. What's up, dude? [24:02] He's chewing up a box. He says, "I know [24:04] you're up here ignoring me." [24:09] I can smell the dog breath through the [24:11] camera, bro. [24:12] >> Yeah. Yeah. Sorry. You were saying [24:16] >> uh something about [24:19] >> uh Shopify is updating their their [24:20] interview stuff, too. I was asking um [24:23] and and I had and I have my own answers [24:25] to this, but like what if someone shows [24:26] up to the interview and they just uh [24:28] Ralph Wiggum loop the whole question or [24:31] what if they take it uh give it to We [24:34] were talking last week about Gas Town, [24:37] they just give it to Gas Town. They're [24:38] like, "Hey, mayor of Gas Town, here's a [24:40] interview. Why don't you just solve it?" [24:42] And then they just sit back and they [24:43] twiddle their thumbs. So, hey, what do [24:45] you want to talk about while uh [24:47] >> while my agents do all this interview? [24:49] you know, like, you know, do we reward [24:50] that person? Do we not reward the [24:52] person? So, there's all these different [24:54] scenarios now that we're It all depends. [24:56] Yeah. So, basically, we don't want [24:57] anybody showing up that just prompts the [24:59] whole time and can't explain anything [25:01] that's going on. It's a bad sign. [25:02] >> Or do you though? So, I mean, this this [25:05] is where I think we're going is like [25:07] there's going to be some percentage of [25:09] people. Hold on. Okay. Hold on. I'm [25:11] going to shut Jake out. One sec. All [25:13] right. Edit that out. Somebody editing [25:15] this later. Okay. [25:18] So there's going to be some percentage [25:19] of people who are just like innately [25:22] uh sants at prompting, right? So like if [25:25] they're for some reason just really good [25:27] at controlling all AI and they get [25:29] really good results that work really [25:30] well every time, do you care if that [25:32] person understands anything about the [25:34] code? If they're shipping insane amounts [25:37] of really good stuff that people who do [25:38] know about code go, "Wow, that's good [25:40] stuff." Like I would say no. [25:44] >> You're right. I hate that. But it seems [25:48] very fair in terms of like they're [25:50] producing the thing we want. The output [25:52] is desirable. They can't explain it, but [25:54] who cares? They can explain [25:57] >> why their products are good or Yeah. [25:59] Like if you make good art, you're [26:01] probably like, "Hey, I don't I don't [26:02] know how I do it. I just go like and [26:05] it's good." Like [26:08] >> some But then again, some pe some [26:09] artists who are like classically trained [26:11] are like, "Oh, I know all of the [26:12] different strokes and I like do it this [26:14] way." and like you know like [26:15] >> I think they're in their own colors, [26:17] right? Yeah. [26:17] >> Yeah. There's room for both. And I think [26:19] it's not as much of a science as we were [26:22] led to believe. There's a lot of art to [26:24] coding and making an especially in web [26:27] development like in a uh you know purely [26:30] backend [26:32] runs on your like computer app or [26:35] something. There's not as much art to [26:36] that because it's more just like input [26:38] output. But like there's a lot of gray [26:40] area and stuff that has any kind of UI. [26:43] Yeah, I mean this is all very prospec [26:45] too because then the because the we're [26:47] just moving so quickly towards the code [26:50] matters less and less which also comes [26:52] in another one of the talking points [26:53] which I think we've briefly done before [26:54] which is uh does do types even matter? [26:57] Does does having a database matter? [26:59] Because if a database is a layer of [27:00] indirection for all your data and AI [27:02] doesn't give a crap about that. AI can [27:04] just build a site off of local files and [27:06] it can write to files and then you have [27:07] no dependencies. like how much and where [27:10] is this going to end where code is just [27:13] completely irrelevant uh in favor of [27:17] >> yeah prompting and spec and spec [27:19] authoring. I even think the spec side is [27:20] even cooler like Toby at Shopify is has [27:24] a lot of great um like ideals and [27:27] guidelines and just like things that [27:29] guide him in general. And so you could [27:32] kind of take a lot of that stuff, codify [27:34] it into like the heart of the specs of [27:36] your company and then have all these [27:38] additional people go build on top of [27:40] those and elaborate and then your whole [27:42] kind of system is a manifestation of [27:45] your ethos and your your services uh [27:48] kind of combined. And then you combine [27:50] that with brand and like a design system [27:51] and some other things and you're really [27:54] kind of reaching a new level of um just [27:58] producing software where the code [27:59] doesn't matter. It matters more about [28:01] the the core that you were talking about [28:02] earlier isn't the core of the framework. [28:04] It's like the core of like why why are [28:06] we doing stuff [28:07] >> uh becomes more important than what are [28:09] we making and that I' I've always liked [28:11] the why over what. Um so I'm Anyway, [28:13] this is dude is wild. [28:15] >> Can it slow down please? I'm exhausted. [28:18] >> Yeah, I wish it would slow down. Um, [28:20] this we were talking about this at work [28:22] is why I put this uh this bullet point [28:24] on here because we're just now in like a [28:28] a 9 or 10year-old codebase adding some [28:31] TypeScript in which is always hard in an [28:33] old codebase with lots of Croft and uh [28:37] we were basically kind of having a [28:38] philosophical discussion around like [28:40] what do we want to recommend as the way [28:42] to do TypeScript, right? Cuz you can do [28:43] it a few ways. You can have like one [28:46] where it's like, oh yeah, I want [28:48] everything to be super strict. Like if [28:50] you type a file, I don't want to ever [28:51] see an any. I want everything to be [28:53] perfect. I don't want to ever use a type [28:54] from that. That's wrong. There's another [28:56] philosophy that's like, well, I don't [28:58] care about most of this cuz it's pretty [29:00] trivial, but this one thing is really [29:01] hairy. I want to like type that and then [29:04] I want the rest to be any. I don't care. [29:06] Um, and we were just kind of talking our [29:07] way through like what do we want to do? [29:09] How do we approach converting the [29:10] codebase? And then we were kind of like, [29:12] wait, so you've got, you know, thousands [29:13] and thousands of files. It could take [29:15] years to convert. Maybe you can do a [29:18] code mod or some AI stuff to like make [29:20] it pretty quick. I don't know. We're, [29:21] you know, in the factf finding phase [29:24] right now. But we're like, but what is [29:26] the point anyway? Because if we're going [29:28] to like like the as an alternative to [29:31] converting anything at all to [29:32] Typescript, what if you spent a lot of [29:33] time investing in your guard rails for [29:36] AI and you were like, "Hey, everyone on [29:39] like all these other teams who is maybe [29:41] not as senior or doesn't know the full [29:43] code base or whatever, like use this [29:45] when you're writing code and it will [29:48] keep you from doing dumb stuff that like [29:50] TypeScript would also have saved you [29:52] from, but like we don't care about [29:54] TypeScript anymore. We just want you to [29:55] like write everything through this. [29:56] it'll check and make sure like you're [29:58] not doing that and then TypeScript [30:00] doesn't need to exist except for if you [30:03] fully typed it all too then AI could go [30:06] way faster cuz it could be sure about [30:07] being like oh I know all these types are [30:10] for sure this way. So like there's still [30:11] some benefits but it was kind of like [30:13] we're probably never going to do that [30:15] because why would we spend a year of [30:17] like a developer's time when AI can just [30:21] kind of save us? [30:22] >> Oh man, I'm in I'm in a code base all [30:24] day right now. Over a million lines of [30:26] TypeScript, no no Annies. Uh, [30:29] everything's typed. [30:30] >> I love it. Jealous. [30:31] >> Um, [30:32] >> well, I I mean, there's just there's [30:35] just so many trade-offs. Like, okay, [30:37] first off, AI is not wildly empowered by [30:40] this. It's it's equally as hindered as [30:43] like a as like a human is. And also, I [30:45] think it might actually be adding [30:46] overhead. [30:47] >> Um, because it [30:50] it churns. It doesn't know. All it knows [30:53] is like, I'm going to try to go do this [30:54] thing. And it goes and does the thing. [30:55] It's like, oh, there's a lint error. Oh, [30:57] there's a type error. And then it just [30:58] like bounces back and forth in there. [30:59] And then it still can't see. And even if [31:00] you teach it to see, um, it doesn't Oh, [31:04] man. We We're trying to turn this thing [31:06] into like a little human. Um, and I'm [31:10] not seeing it wildly do great things [31:13] inside of a big codebase. And we just, [31:15] okay, so here's a good example. We just [31:16] saw uh Codeex 5.2 come out. Uh, Chat GBT [31:20] codeex, right? Yeah, it's open AI codeex [31:23] anyway. And its whole thing is they're [31:24] trying to pitch, hey, if you got a big [31:26] ass code base and you finding that AI [31:28] models are really shitty at going [31:30] through it and having longunning ideas, [31:31] we just made the AI model for you. It's [31:34] called Codeex 5.2 and it's specialized [31:36] for longunning [ __ ] And it's like [31:40] >> I don't think it's actually going to do [31:41] that much better, man. Like it's kind of [31:43] in like there's so much code and there's [31:46] so many edge cases and it's like CSS. [31:48] CSS constantly shows up and it's all [31:49] like it's all like my job's done. And [31:51] you're like, "Did you look at it?" And [31:52] it's like, "Yeah, I took a picture. Look [31:53] at the picture. Isn't it pretty?" And [31:54] you're like, "It, no, [31:56] >> it's vomit, dude. Like, did you even [31:57] know?" And it's like, [31:58] >> and then the other thing, too, is like [31:59] you're trying to do code mods or [32:01] migrations or whatever it is. Like, it [32:02] can take a picture of the beginning [32:04] state and it'll take a picture of the [32:05] end state happily and be like, "I took [32:07] pictures." And you're like, "Yeah, but [32:10] what [32:11] >> do they look the same?" [32:13] >> Yeah. Well, a lot of times they're not [32:15] supposed to. So, it's like how do you [32:16] how do you describe what's supposed to [32:19] change in the picture? That's the [32:21] follow-up one. If it's a layout change [32:25] based on like the uh [32:27] >> Oh god, my brain doesn't work. Like the [32:30] visual diffusion or whatever, wherever [32:32] it like, you know, makes it all noise [32:34] and then static noise picture. [32:36] >> Yeah. So, like if we can figure out how [32:38] to tell that like this part of the noise [32:40] is now blue, it could be like, "Ah, yes, [32:43] I've I've made the noise a noisy blue [32:46] right there and it is now blue." Um, I [32:49] don't know. I feel like there's a way to [32:50] do it. [32:51] >> We got comments in here from Mr. Ray [32:53] Dev. He says, "Codeex is crazy worse [32:55] than even CL." So, Mr. Ray Dev was like [32:57] a long running, let me try it. And then [32:59] all of a sudden, it's not. And I'm just [33:02] not surprised by that cuz um I I want [33:05] them to be good. And I and I think I [33:06] talked about it last week too where I've [33:08] been rolling forward a skill. So that [33:09] way when I spin up agents that um you [33:12] know like I have one little agent does [33:13] this task and it helps evolve a skill [33:15] and that way it passes information [33:17] forward and I don't have to keep a [33:18] database. I don't have to keep beads. I [33:19] don't have to keep git. I don't have to [33:21] have gas town. It's like I just have [33:23] this one migration. I don't need the one [33:24] code mod. I'm not trying to do this to [33:27] my whole and it still um it just screws [33:31] up enough times and it also hiccups on [33:34] types constantly. So that's why I'm [33:35] looking at TypeScript going, what are [33:38] you really doing right now other than [33:40] perceptively slowing us down? Um, [33:44] >> yeah. Yeah. I mean, I'm I think using it [33:46] as a llinter and not trying to be super [33:49] strongly typed and using it like [33:50] sparingly, I think is the way I would [33:53] recommend using it now. Like if it's a [33:55] project that just I'm working on, I'm [33:57] going to I'm a completionist with the [33:58] types, so I'm going to get it all typed. [34:00] But like I think in terms of you know [34:02] leading a team just type the like one or [34:05] two things that you know people are [34:06] getting wrong a lot or whatever like [34:08] help them there but other it's just a [34:10] llinter like you could also write an [34:12] eslint rule that would like check am I [34:13] using this thing wrong and like you know [34:17] I feel like it's like that it just has [34:18] less steps. So like I think that is the [34:20] way I'm going to probably be using it [34:22] going forward versus trying to have a [34:23] fully typed everything. Um although I [34:26] love when things are fully typed, but [34:28] >> fully typed feels good. I'm not gonna [34:30] lie, dude. It always That's why Rust is [34:32] popular. If you can make your Rust app [34:33] run, you're like, "Hell yeah." [34:36] >> Like a kitten. Uh you know, like there's [34:39] no mess ups there. I feel like AI [34:41] though, like uh just it once you're past [34:43] like four files, [34:45] it just starts to go downhill. And even [34:47] when they run these things overnights [34:49] and weekends, like people are just [34:50] spending tokens. And I'm not seeing [34:53] amazing results yet. And so here's the [34:55] thing though, like I'm assuming it's [34:57] going to get there. And so um I'm going [34:59] to keep tinkering. I'm going to keep [35:01] trying to see how these tools work. Um [35:04] because they're not done growing every [35:05] week. It's just wild. So we'll see where [35:08] it all goes. [35:09] >> Yeah, it's been pretty good for me. I've [35:11] been So at work, we have an exception to [35:14] use co-pilot and only C-pilot basically. [35:17] Um [35:18] >> sucks to be you. [35:19] >> Well, however, so we have a loophole [35:22] now. This is new development as of [35:24] today. Um, GitHub tweeted like open code [35:30] >> fully supported and I was like, [35:33] so I was like, okay, is this a loophole [35:35] where we can use open code now? And the [35:37] principal on my team was like, [35:39] >> yes. And was like, hell yeah. All right, [35:40] we're [35:42] >> you got to go install that. Oh my open [35:44] code. It's a really great layer on top [35:46] of open code. I'm a big fan. [35:48] >> So I want to come back to that and hear [35:49] what's in that. But did you see they [35:51] have a app now? Like it's not just the [35:53] CLI. You can install an open code app. [35:56] >> I saw you write that and open code [35:58] black. So inform me. I am not caught up. [36:00] >> So open code black is this thing. Um [36:04] it's like uh the claude code like or [36:07] claude's whatever where they have like [36:08] the $20 tier and then the max tier [36:10] that's like $100. It's like their [36:11] version of that, but it just like [36:13] spreads the work across whatever model [36:15] they want at the time. So, it's like [36:16] Open Code Zen kind of except with a like [36:19] more baked in price instead of charging [36:21] you per token. Um, and so people were [36:25] signing up for it cuz they would open up [36:27] like 20 spots at a time and they would [36:28] sell out like before anyone could click [36:30] it. [36:31] >> So now they have just a wait list like [36:32] you can go buy it and be like we'll [36:34] charge you whenever we like onboard you [36:36] finally. Um, [36:38] >> so I signed up for for it and I I'm [36:41] going to give it a try. Um cuz open code [36:44] I think is the best uh developer [36:46] experience thus far. So I want to try it [36:49] with a like I don't have to worry about [36:51] every couple hours it going hey you got [36:53] to wait a while to like do anything [36:54] else. Um and also like we said you can't [36:57] use it with I was using it with my [36:59] anthropic like $20 code which no longer [37:02] works. So you can use anthropic like [37:04] charge me based on every character you [37:06] send me. Um but I don't love that. So [37:10] >> yeah, dude. Let's uh let's compare. [37:13] Let's wait. Open code like a corn cip [37:16] for dead. [37:18] >> Nice. It's good. [37:21] >> I'm trying to like So wait, what is it [37:23] that you like about open code over [37:25] claude over [37:28] um uh warp for example? Or even like are [37:31] you in cursor or are you in Windsurf and [37:34] >> cursor and wind surf are dead to me. I [37:36] don't want those. [37:36] >> Okay, so you're terminal all day. No [37:38] idea. [37:38] >> I like it being work trees. [37:41] >> No, [37:42] >> I'm not doing anything super advanced. [37:45] >> Um, and a lot of my preferences are just [37:47] vibes like open code was one to do the [37:52] LSP stuff. So, it like it was better at [37:54] TypeScript than everyone else just cuz [37:56] they connected it to a TypeScript LSP. [37:59] And so, that won me over. Like that was [38:01] the first thing where I like told it to [38:02] do something and it gave me a thing that [38:04] I would actually ship. Like I did a lot [38:07] of AI stuff before and it was like ah [38:08] this was like an interesting you know [38:10] debugging exercise but I'm not going to [38:12] ship your code and this one I was like [38:14] wow you did a good job. So I I like [38:16] liked open code for that. Warp has done [38:20] a good job as well but it seems to like [38:24] I don't know what it is. Maybe it's [38:25] because it's kind of like I have it set [38:27] to auto pick the model or whatever. [38:29] Maybe it's picking bad models. Um but [38:32] it's like very hit or miss. Like [38:33] sometimes it does a terrible job. [38:35] Sometimes it does a great job and it [38:36] feels kind of like AI used to feel like. [38:39] Um, so yeah, sometimes I've I've been [38:42] using warp more, especially since the [38:44] clawed stuff stopped working in open [38:46] code. Um, and I've gotten some good [38:47] stuff out of warp. Warp actually fixed a [38:49] bug for me today with uh in swatch. [38:53] There's a um magnifier color picker [38:56] thing. I don't know if I talked to you [38:57] about this bug before, but so you got [38:59] this circle, right? And you move it and [39:00] the middle pixel like picks that color. [39:03] And on Windows, it works if you have a [39:06] just a 100% DPI screen. Like there's no [39:09] scaling factor. But if you I have [39:12] >> two or or what do you mean? [39:15] >> Like like your your screen resolution. [39:18] Let's say you have a monitor that's like [39:20] 10. [39:20] >> Oh, it's at its natural natural [39:22] resolution. [39:23] >> Yeah. Yeah. So then it worked. But if [39:26] you like I have mine set to 200% because [39:28] I have like a 5,000 pixel monitor and so [39:32] if you don't it's like teenytiny and I [39:34] can't read anything. Um so at 200% [39:37] it was not it was like a thousand pixels [39:39] off like it was clear offset like wasn't [39:43] factoring in the DPI and uh so I had [39:46] asked Open Code a bunch of times to fix [39:48] this like I'd released several versions [39:49] and it kept being like it's fixed ship [39:51] it and I shipped it and it didn't change [39:52] anything. And um so Warp was like went [39:56] down the same path for a minute and was [39:57] like, "Oh yeah, let me fix it." Like, [39:59] "We got to see what we multiply and [40:00] divide and whatever." And I was like, [40:01] "Wait, what if we just make the Windows [40:04] side DPI aware so we don't have to do [40:06] any math? We just let it like pick the [40:08] pixels." I was like, [40:09] >> "Why haven't why has no one said that [40:11] before? Why isn't that's an option?" [40:13] >> Um so so we did that and it works now. [40:16] So like Warp saved me there. I don't [40:18] know what model it was using or but like [40:20] yeah it's it's like I feel like warp is [40:23] right 50% of the time but does like [40:25] super magical good stuff when it's right [40:29] and open code is like uh stuff you could [40:32] ship more often but is maybe not as [40:34] magical and fancy and good. I don't know [40:36] like it's it's more the baseline that I [40:38] can kind of count on. Um I think there's [40:40] room for both and I've I've had success [40:42] with both. [40:43] >> Yeah. So uh Open Code I've been playing [40:46] with that for a couple weeks. Uh it's [40:48] now available at Shopify uh as well as [40:51] Cloud Code, both of which I can kind of [40:52] pick whatever model I want. And so I [40:55] have a lot of experience with both of [40:56] those. Oh yeah, we'll talk about oh my [40:58] open code here in a sec, but I also use [41:00] cursor a lot. Um cursor has some killer [41:03] features like people are like uh I I [41:06] used claude today to to spin up three [41:09] agents to do some work. And I'm like you [41:10] know in cursor that's just a drop-own [41:12] menu, right? You you write your prompt [41:13] and you say how many agents do you want [41:15] to do the work? You say three [41:18] >> and it creates work trees, bro. So, it's [41:20] even fancier than that. So, you go like [41:21] three. [41:22] >> I haven't used it in a while. When I [41:23] used it, it was like open-ended text [41:25] box. I was like, "Can you make this [41:27] change?" And it was like, "I made it." [41:28] And I was like, "No, you didn't." It's [41:30] like, "Yeah, I did." No, you didn't. So, [41:33] I I didn't Maybe I should try it again [41:35] cuz it was terrible when I used it last. [41:36] >> It's also like pretty wildly different. [41:39] Well, it has two modes. Same thing with [41:40] anti-gravity. Like, they have a agent [41:43] modes where you're like, I don't even [41:44] look at the code. you're almost purely [41:46] in like a but I don't use those as much [41:48] but anyway yeah if you if you open up [41:50] cursor flat out the side menu write your [41:52] prompt look for the one X that's [41:54] underneath your prompt change it to [41:55] three or four and all that does is [41:58] create agents and work trees for each of [42:01] those work streams they work you get to [42:03] watch their little batons come back and [42:05] then they highlight green you click them [42:07] and you see their diff [42:09] and it changes your code as if it would [42:11] have done before and then you can like [42:13] either accept it or try on the other one [42:15] and try on the other one. So every time [42:17] you click one, it changes your code to [42:19] their changes. You can see it in your [42:20] browser if you've got live reload going [42:22] on. Figure out the one you want, accept [42:24] the one, delete the work trees, and go [42:26] back to now a bunch of possibilities and [42:30] pick the best one. [42:32] >> Yeah, I mean, okay, wait, and I rephrase [42:33] like claude and open code can do that [42:35] exact same thing. It's just you have to [42:37] be very explicit and deliberate and you [42:39] don't get the really rich switching kind [42:42] of experience [42:42] >> because like open code definitely uses [42:44] sub agents cuz I've seen it say like [42:46] I've got a bunch of sub aents doing this [42:48] stuff but it doesn't let you see [42:49] >> and pick like [42:51] >> it's not doing them side by I think it's [42:53] doing like separate things. It's like [42:54] four agents doing four different things [42:57] not four of the same to see which could [42:58] have the better output. You know what? [43:00] So I think that's a compelling [43:02] >> use case because you do get wildly [43:04] different stuff. It's nondeterministic. [43:05] So, like if I had four things doing the [43:07] same thing, I picked the best one. I [43:08] like that. I might have to try that. [43:10] >> Yep. There's also um there's so many [43:13] this world is crazy right now. Okay. [43:14] See, the other thing is you have people [43:16] uh and I've been trying this too where [43:17] you pit different AI models against each [43:20] other. So, no longer like right now [43:22] we're in a very mono model. Oh [ __ ] [43:25] that was M and M and M. Uh right where [43:28] you're like monogamous with your model, [43:30] but a lot of there's people out there [43:32] that are polyamorous with their models. [43:34] That's just fun to say. Um, and they uh [43:37] are basically saying, "Okay, hey Gemini, [43:40] you go do this task. Hey, Claude, you go [43:42] do this task. Hey, Chad, you go do this [43:44] task." And then, "Hey, Claude, go review [43:47] this work that's that came back from [43:49] Claude." Oh, or whatever. Anyway, you [43:51] have them review each other. Um, and [43:53] that's like one of the superpowers of [43:54] open code is that you can kind of pit [43:56] them and warp, right? You can open up, [43:58] you can open up command T and warp. You [43:59] hit command D to split it vertically. [44:01] Command shift D and now you got four [44:03] quadrants like you're in T-Mux. You can [44:05] have four different agents reviewing [44:06] other agents work to sort of get [44:09] yourself into this scenario where you're [44:11] not trusting a single agent to do [44:12] everything. It's wild. And so yeah, you [44:15] combine that with like work trees and [44:17] these other things. So here's the magic [44:18] of warp that I still really like is that [44:21] um I don't have to care about what is an [44:22] MCP server, what is a skill, and what is [44:25] a hook and what is a command. I get to [44:28] tell it what I want and it sort of deres [44:30] the best thing for me. And my favorite [44:32] thing is still MCP discovery where I'm [44:36] like, "Hey, I need this thing to to get [44:38] done." Like [44:39] >> doing that too. [44:40] >> It was like I was like do some git stuff [44:42] and it was like [44:43] >> pulling the git kraken mcp to figure out [44:46] how git works and I was like oh [ __ ] [44:48] Okay. [44:51] Yeah, that's really cool stuff because [44:53] uh it's really annoying configuring [44:54] things like it's okay, let me let me [44:55] rephrase. Configuring things is very [44:57] fun. It's also a time waste. So like if [45:00] something can kind of configure on the [45:01] fly based on my request, that's really [45:03] cool. Uh and Warp is the one that [45:05] constantly does that for me where I'm [45:07] like I I ask for a thing and I say, [45:08] "Hey, go verify it." And then it'll be [45:10] like, "Oh, sure. I'll spin up a [45:12] browser." And all of a sudden, Chrome [45:13] opens up with this special profile and I [45:15] can see it taking pictures and then it [45:16] starts to cost me a lot of money cuz [45:18] it's like I took pictures and then I [45:19] took the picture and I tokenized it and [45:21] I sent it to the server and I reviewed [45:22] it and I'm doing it again and again and [45:24] again. I'm like stop taking pictures [45:25] right now. You're going to eat up all my [45:26] credits. [45:27] >> $20 later. You should use this MCP. [45:30] >> Crap. Yeah. [45:33] But yeah, that's uh I was trying to just [45:35] like tell someone why I like wind surf [45:37] better than cursor the other day and I [45:40] just couldn't. It was vibes and I'm like [45:43] it's annoying. I wish I wish I could [45:44] tell you. [45:45] >> I had both and that was the same for me [45:47] too. It was like [45:49] >> um at the base use case of like you know [45:52] opening a file and just working on some [45:55] stuff and hitting tab to tab through [45:56] stuff. It was better. I don't know why [45:59] they both do the same thing like but it [46:02] was just I felt better with the like tab [46:04] autocomplete and at the time the agentic [46:07] stuff in both was abysmal so it didn't [46:10] matter but like the you know dayto-day [46:12] I'm still writing code I just want you [46:13] to autocomplete a couple things worked [46:15] way better [46:16] >> in wind surf for me for whatever reason [46:19] >> okay so let's talk about co-work and [46:20] then I want to talk about agency what do [46:22] you know about I saw co-workers like [46:25] >> making money for people who has file [46:26] system access and I was like nope [46:28] I am not ready for this thing to like [46:30] just be reading all of my [ __ ] No thank [46:32] you. I want to give it to it with a [46:34] spoon. I'm not ready for automated. [46:36] >> I haven't used it, but I just saw [46:38] somebody tweeted like, "Thank God [46:41] anthropic is coming for everyone else's [46:43] jobs now." And I was like, "Yes, yes, [46:46] that is uh cuz like I do find myself [46:49] being like, "All right, I have a you [46:50] know, I can't think of an example, but [46:52] some task I want to do in life. Like I'd [46:53] like to uh plan this thing, schedule [46:56] this thing, uh you know, research [46:59] getting tickets to something, doing [47:00] whatever. Like I would like to be able [47:02] to do approach that in the same way of [47:04] just being like hello agentic thing. [47:07] Like I want to do this stuff. Tell me [47:08] the best way like find it for me. So I [47:11] think it's compelling to like apply that [47:13] workflow to the rest of your life. But [47:17] like, yeah, I I do think you're going to [47:19] hit a token problem and like if we're [47:21] using it for everything. Uh the cost is [47:24] going to catch up at some point. Like [47:26] you can't get used to using it for [47:27] everything. Um so I don't know. I'm [47:29] cautiously optimistic. I think it's [47:31] cool. I want to try it out, but I just I [47:32] just wanted to mention that it exists. I [47:34] don't have much else to say about it as [47:36] me neither. I kind of got scared by it. [47:38] I was like I'm not ready for that. You [47:39] know, the thing that scared me the most [47:41] though wasn't a co-work kind of like [47:43] taking those jobs. is that I saw uh AI [47:46] is now growing crops. It's growing food. [47:49] Uh and I was like, "Oh, so farmers, [47:52] maybe we won't have farmers anymore." I [47:55] was like, "What if AI disrupts the [47:57] farming industry?" [47:59] >> Yikes. Yeah. Well, the farming industry [48:02] is a whole another episode we could talk [48:03] about. Like, I think that whole thing is [48:05] broken. We should not have big giant [48:07] farms where like if one company has like [48:10] a bad growing season, we don't have [48:11] food. like the local farm model is what [48:14] we should be doing, but I'm not I'm [48:15] gonna get off my soap box because we're [48:16] gonna run out of time. So, um yeah, what [48:19] tell me about agency or whatever you [48:21] were saying. [48:22] >> Okay. Okay. So, agency um in in an age [48:25] uh where [48:28] uh intellectual stuff is on tap. Uh what [48:31] you need now are people that are [48:33] adventurers and tinkerers and the people [48:36] that you can trust to go figure it out. [48:39] Um, so you need to you we're seeing a [48:42] rise of agency, meaning that we want to [48:45] give people less of a specific role and [48:48] trust people to just go around and do [48:51] good like work for the company. You can [48:54] focus on this area. Uh, and we're not [48:57] going to tell you very much what to do. [48:58] What we want to do is trust you that [49:00] you're equipped with AI and that you are [49:03] just constantly doing good. You're [49:05] you're deploying agents over here to do [49:08] that. that's improving whatever you're [49:09] over here improving internal processes. [49:11] You're making an internal tool like you [49:13] are free now. You're you're now [49:15] liberated. Your chains have been broken [49:17] from your front end role or even your [49:20] design role. We want to give you agency [49:23] and and trust you to to just go do good. [49:27] And I'm like that's really cool. So it's [49:30] cool. But like in that world, and I [49:33] guess this is the world we're in [49:34] everywhere, even if you are specialized [49:36] in one specific area, like how do you [49:39] ever get a raise or a new position or [49:42] like if you're just kind of like you're [49:44] in charge of the vibes of this area of [49:47] work? It's like, well, how do I show [49:49] that I did good at the vibes? Like your [49:52] you actually [49:55] It's like, [49:55] >> yeah. [49:56] >> Okay. Well, yeah. So, I mean, I guess [49:58] there's that. Like if you're if you're [50:00] your own manager in your own department [50:03] and you're setting your own goals and [50:05] you're writing RFC's that you comment on [50:06] yourself and you're like [50:09] I don't know like I feel like there has [50:12] to be someone at some level that's [50:14] deciding like is the criteria you came [50:16] up with good? Do we agree? Did you do [50:18] well? Should you get more money? Like or [50:22] I don't know. Um maybe all of that is [50:24] done. Maybe there's no more promotions [50:26] for anyone ever. I mean, I feel like [50:28] we're pretty quickly heading towards uh [50:31] we don't need developers, designers, or [50:34] any of us anymore. So, that's [50:37] depressing. Yeah. Please give me a [50:40] severance of the rest of the money that [50:42] I would have made for the rest of my [50:43] life, and I'll be happy. [50:48] Oh, yeah. My my 401k is not not ready to [50:51] have no job. [50:53] It's going to be wild if uh if it really [50:56] does displace as many things as it's [50:57] kind of positioned to. [50:59] >> Yeah. No, I'm I'm trying to get in the [51:01] physical goods game. Like I was talking [51:03] to my friend who is a local farmer. He [51:05] has popcorn on the cob that he just like [51:09] he doesn't take it off the cob. You just [51:11] get the whole cob. He gives you a bag [51:13] and you put it in the microwave. I [51:14] thought you had to take it off the cob [51:15] to pop it, but you don't. [51:17] >> And so I was like this is so cool. Like [51:20] people would love to take a [ __ ] Cobb [51:22] and put it in their microwave. Hells [51:24] yeah. [51:25] >> Why does no one sell it in this form? So [51:27] I'm like, we should do that. Like why [51:30] are we do that online? [51:32] >> Yeah. Um and then he starts scheming. [51:34] He's like, "Oh yeah, you just need 40 [51:36] acres and you can grow 1 million cobs a [51:38] year." And like I was like, "Okay, like [51:42] I'm I'm not ready for that." But like, [51:43] yeah, I want to get into something like [51:45] that. Like experiment. Like I think AI [51:47] can help you iterate on your ideas and [51:49] you're like have a good website with [51:51] basically no effort and like throw up [51:54] some Instagram ads, see where it where [51:56] it lands. Like I don't know. I I want to [51:59] get into more of that kind of stuff [52:01] because I feel like you know the [52:03] developer stuff can't can't last [52:04] forever. Like I think we'll outpace most [52:07] hopefully like before we're stay but [52:12] >> yeah I don't know it's bleak. It is [52:16] oddly bleak. Um I mean last week was [52:18] bleak, right? Now we're bleak still. [52:20] That I don't know where [52:21] >> we always will be. We We still bring the [52:23] joy though. We're having whiskey. It's [52:24] okay. [52:26] >> Hey, I showed a zombie kill. Oh, wait. I [52:27] want to talk about something that [52:28] brought me joy this week. It's uh want [52:30] my MTV.verell.app. [52:33] >> What? [52:35] >> It's you can watch MTV. So, do you [52:37] remember um [52:38] >> MTV just stopped running? Right. I saw [52:40] that. Like [52:41] >> that's what I'm saying. It doesn't have [52:43] to stop. You can watch someone's curated [52:45] everything off of YouTube, all the music [52:47] videos, put them organized by like era [52:49] and commercials and put it into a thing. [52:52] So it's like, did you ever watch [52:53] Nickreboottv? I think it was Nick [52:55] Reboot.tv. You could just go to this [52:57] website and it was playing stuff and you [53:00] just tuned in like it was old school TV. [53:02] There was commercials, you know, skip [53:04] it, skip it or whatever. Um, and you'd [53:07] watch Hey Arnold and you'd catch half [53:09] the episode cuz you tuned in late, you [53:11] know, and it was awesome. [53:12] >> Yeah. uh got shut down for probably [53:15] reasons. But [53:16] >> this MTV one is awesome in the same way. [53:18] You can be like, I want to listen to [53:20] 2000's um music videos and you just go [53:22] there, you hit a button, and there's [53:23] like 3,000 [53:25] >> music videos from the 2000s that it'll [53:26] just randomly play for you and play [53:28] commercials in between every It's been [53:31] >> awesome, dude. And I'm finding new [53:33] music. I'm like, how did I not know that [53:34] song? That metal song was badass. [53:36] >> I was always a Fuse listener. Did you [53:38] ever listen watch Fuse? I didn't, but my [53:41] spouse was huge in Afuse. Yeah. [53:42] >> Oh, yeah. Yeah. It was uh like as soon [53:45] as that came out, I don't know what it [53:46] was like the alternative MTV, like more [53:48] rock based, and I just had it playing [53:50] like all day. Like, I thought it was so [53:53] cool. [53:53] >> Um, but yeah, I'm I mean, music videos I [53:56] feel like are a lost art. Like, people [53:58] are still making them, but it's like I'm [54:01] I personally don't like to go consume [54:03] YouTube. Um, I'm probably in the [54:05] minority there, but like I like a thing [54:07] that just picks it for me, curate it. I [54:09] don't I don't want to go like click on [54:11] it. I just want it to be a a feed with [54:13] commercials and like Yeah, like [54:14] traditional TV sounds good. [54:16] >> You're going to love this. It's been [54:17] really nice for while I'm working. So, I [54:19] just put it on. Although, it's been it's [54:21] okay. So, let me rephrase. It's been [54:23] really nice. That's still the phrase, [54:25] but also sometimes really distracting [54:27] cuz I'm like, that music video is really [54:29] sexy. I'm like, holy [ __ ] that was that [54:31] I watched that as a 14-year-old. I'm [54:33] like, goodness. I'm like, that [ __ ] was [54:36] hot as hell. Jeez Louise. [54:40] So anyway, I just from like watching [54:42] these music videos like that was okay. [54:44] Holy jeez. Wow. Um, but also some of [54:47] them are just hilariously like simple [54:50] and awesome. So [54:51] >> yeah, [54:52] >> enjoy everybody. We'll put that link in [54:53] the show notes. [54:54] >> Yeah, we always end up uh watching music [54:57] videos at the end of like anytime we [54:59] have people over and we're hanging out [55:00] and it's like 1:00 a.m. That's like you [55:02] just throw on music videos. So that'd be [55:03] cool. Just throw that on. You don't have [55:04] to even pick the next one. [55:06] >> Yeah. Yeah. Good call. So yeah, I uh got [55:10] sixish minutes left. Um I do want to [55:13] mention the topic that we didn't get to. [55:15] Did we get to it? And then I was like, [55:17] should we talk about it more next time? [55:18] I don't know. Anyway, the fact that [55:20] booze and nicotine and like, you know, [55:22] any sort of like thing that are fun or [55:25] historically thought of as fun um are [55:28] like way down. Um [55:30] >> yeah. [55:30] >> And it's like people probably still like [55:33] fun. So, I don't know if it's like a one [55:35] one thing could be like a health thing [55:37] like maybe people I know there's a lot [55:39] of different like I get so many ads for [55:41] like this cocktail alternative it makes [55:43] you feel good. I'm like feel good how [55:45] what drugs are in it? Nothing. Okay, it [55:47] probably doesn't do anything. Like [55:50] >> so I'm like um I don't know. I'm [55:52] skeptical about those. I don't know if [55:53] you've tried any of those. [55:53] >> The NA party beer. Oh, I keep getting [55:55] Yeah, I keep getting those like, "Oh, [55:57] you still want to party but don't want [55:58] to drink? Here, have this NA beer." [56:00] >> Beer beer is awful. I don't want to [56:01] drink beer if it doesn't have alcohol in [56:03] it. It's stupid. Um, so no, but like the [56:06] like kin euphorics, have you seen those? [56:08] Like [56:09] >> um [56:10] >> it's it's just like a herbbally I don't [56:12] know neutropic like supposed to be like [56:14] good for your mind, make you more [56:16] social, etc. Like you know the good [56:18] parts of drinking, but like not the bad, [56:21] but like I haven't tried them, so I [56:22] guess I can't [ __ ] on it until I try it. [56:24] But I am very skeptical. Um, but anyway, [56:27] people could be doing some of that, [56:29] could be doing whatever. Uh, [56:31] >> how could that succeed though? If if [56:32] actual booze is down, how could the NA [56:35] alternatives be up? [56:38] >> I don't know. But yeah, sorry. Anyway, [56:40] my hypothesis is that everything is [56:42] down. I think [56:44] >> everyone is losing their jobs. The [56:46] entire economy is down. Inflation is up. [56:48] Recession big time. [56:50] >> Minnesota's throwing bombs into people's [56:52] cars as they're trying to exit ICE. Yep. [56:54] It's nuts. [56:55] >> Yeah. Like um I saw on the Today show [56:57] the other day that pizza is down. like [57:00] 30%. [57:02] >> Like what's up? [57:04] >> You know, [57:04] >> that's what I'm saying. It's like if [57:06] even pizza can't do well, like pretty [57:08] much an American staple. Like [57:11] >> um I think everything is down cuz [57:12] everyone is like I can't afford to live [57:14] much less go get a [ __ ] pizza. So [57:17] like I'm going to make a pizza at home [57:18] if I want a pizza. Like I think that's [57:20] what's happening. So I don't think [57:22] people like I think there could be [57:24] increased demand for like all this [57:26] stuff. Again, I'm not sure. I'm just [57:28] like, you know, spouting whatever. But I [57:31] that that's how I feel. I I don't think [57:33] that it's like doom and gloom around the [57:35] alcohol industry and it's going to fully [57:36] go away because like you got to replace [57:39] it with something. People need something [57:40] to numb their minds. Um [57:42] >> tea, man. Just a just, you know, an [57:44] herbal tea. Um I keep wondering about [57:46] supply and demand. So as soon as I'm [57:48] like, "Oh, these things are down." So [57:50] supply is there, demand is down. I'm [57:53] like, "What? So is everything going to [57:55] get cheaper?" That would kind of [57:56] >> Well, that would be a welcome thing. [57:58] Yeah, cuz the whiskey industry has [58:00] gotten nuts. This stuff is way too [58:02] expensive. Like Chuck was telling me [58:04] about it and uh I don't know the full [58:06] story, but the the essential u facts are [58:09] basically like uh you know they sell [58:11] like this whistle pig, let's say they'd [58:12] sell it for 20 bucks, 30 bucks, [58:15] whatever, like the original cheap price. [58:17] And then they were noticing people would [58:18] buy all of them and resell them on like, [58:21] you know, I bought thislicker.com for [58:24] like 60 bucks. And they're like, "Wait, [58:27] you guys are buying all this cuz you [58:28] think it's good and like making it more [58:30] expensive. We'll just make it more [58:31] expensive. We'll just we'll cut out the [58:33] middleman." And so that's why everything [58:34] has gone up like to whiskey like the [58:36] cheapest of a like anything that's not [58:39] like a Jack Daniels is like if it's a [58:41] nice whiskey, it's going to be 50 bucks [58:42] plus like because that's what's [58:45] happened. And it's This was a dinner for [58:47] two anywhere. [58:49] >> It's ridiculous. [58:49] >> Okay. Yeah, that's a Yeah. So, we've had [58:52] this debate with one of our friends. [58:54] It's like he's like, "Okay, if you go to [58:56] like, I don't know, fast food, [58:58] McDonald's, Taco Bell, whatever, and [59:00] you're like, "All right, I've got two [59:02] adults, couple kids, whatever. The [59:04] amount of that you'll spend on that, [59:06] he's saying, is actually sometimes more [59:08] than you'll spend going to like a sit [59:10] down restaurant." Because like if you go [59:12] to he has certain ones you go to that [59:13] like if you get a adult entree your kids [59:16] eat free or something like that. And so [59:18] it's like the kids aren't a factor in [59:19] the cost. So you got two adult entre at [59:21] like 20 bucks or whatever. And then like [59:25] um yeah I'm like well what about tip or [59:27] what? And he's like no he insists like [59:28] it doesn't matter what he does. It's [59:30] cheaper to sit at the like sit down [59:32] restaurant. I was like that's [ __ ] up [59:33] man. Like that's not the way it should [59:35] be. Like fast food has gotten super [59:37] expensive. [59:38] >> Super expensive. I've noticed the same [59:40] thing. the uh there's so we do Woody [59:42] Wednesdays and one of the reasons we do [59:44] Little Woodies is because it's um [59:47] locally it's like a local famous person. [59:50] It's wildly cheap, really good quality. [59:53] Their French fries are amazing and I [59:55] walk out of there and I can feed the [59:56] whole family for 45 bucks. I pretty much [59:58] can't do that anywhere anywhere. Um [60:02] >> yeah, [60:04] >> it's crazy. So, yeah. Well, Seattle is [60:07] its own beast cuz when I was there, I [60:10] got Taco Bell delivered and I got uh [60:13] let's see, like a burrito and two tacos [60:15] or something like not a lot. And it was [60:18] like $67 or something like with the all [60:21] the like cuz they're like, "Hey, you're [60:22] in Seattle, bro. Like, this is going to [60:24] be at least $30 just for us to even open [60:26] the Door Dash app." And then like [60:29] >> like there's so many extra fees and I [60:31] was like, "Holy shit." So, yeah. I mean, [60:33] stuff is probably more expensive in [60:34] general and in your [60:35] >> Europe. If you buy if you're buying food [60:37] for just yourself, the order stuff is [60:39] just stupid. You're going to pay more in [60:40] fees than the food is. Is [60:42] >> that's why I always order like two or [60:44] three meals whenever I get delivery. [60:46] Then you just microwave it. [60:48] >> Oo, good idea. Dang, that's a it's a [60:51] life hack right there. [60:52] >> Yep. Yep. Yeah. And also Costco has Uber [60:56] Eats and uh Door Dash gift cards. You [60:58] can get $100 of gift cards for like 75 [61:01] or 80 bucks something. So, [61:03] >> how does that make any sense? [61:05] >> I buy them every time I go. They limit [61:07] you. You can only get like four per [61:09] month or something because they don't [61:10] want you having infinite like percent [61:14] off at Door Dash, I guess. I don't know. [61:15] >> This is so weird. This is so weird. This [61:18] world is so weird right now. [61:20] >> Yep. Yep. [61:22] All right, we are at time. Is there [61:24] anything that we missed that you want to [61:26] mention before we end? [61:27] >> No, man. That was awesome. [61:29] >> Cool. All right. Thanks everyone for [61:31] listening. If you liked it, please [61:32] subscribe. Leave us some ratings. Please [61:34] actually do. I'm not going to say the [61:36] same spiel that I always do. Go to [61:38] Spotify, click our show, click rate, [61:40] give it five stars. Do the same on [61:42] Apple. It is very quick. Those of you [61:45] that are listening that haven't done it, [61:47] shame on you. I've asked you so many [61:49] times. All right, we'll catch you guys [61:51] next time. Yeah, like [61:54] you've been watching Whiskey Web and [61:56] Whatnot recorded in front of a live [61:57] studio audience. What the [ __ ] are you [61:59] talking about, Chuck? Enjoyed the show? [62:02] Subscribe. You know people don't pay [62:04] attention to these, right? Head to [62:07] whiskey.f fun for merch and to join our [62:09] Discord server. I'm serious. It's like [62:12] 2% of people who actually click these [62:14] links. And don't forget to leave us a [62:16] fivestar review and tell your friends [62:18] about the show. All right, dude. I'm out [62:20] of here. Still got it.