What Do We Want From a Web Browser?  ## Metadata - Author: [[Changelog Master Feed]] - Full Title: What Do We Want From a Web Browser? - Category: #podcasts - URL: https://share.snipd.com/episode/f6d41d21-1e36-4b77-8841-d18e579ec8f8 ## Document Notes ## Highlights - **Jared's Safari Conversion Story** - Jared shared his experience with Safari's iCloud tabs, which deeply integrated his browsing across devices. - This feature converted him from a Safari skeptic to a daily Safari user appreciating its ecosystem benefits. Transcript: Speaker 1 So we're three Safari users here. This is going to be like the worst conversation of all time as our listeners are all against us. And we praise Safari, the three of us together. Sorry, go ahead. Speaker 3 No, we will have some because I have to caveat it that for the past couple of months, I have actually been using Arc, but Safari is my true home. I'm just not brave enough to install the latest beta of Mac OS to get all of the new Safari features, but right. Possibly today. It might be announced when that's coming out. Speaker 1 That's right. It is an Apple announcement today as a record. Yeah. Yeah. Speaker 2 You're always the one that's on the edge with the with Mac OS too. That's right. Like me, I just finally got to venture. What is it lately? What is the latest one? Speaker 1 I have lost track of the of the name. I think so. Speaker 2 Is it Ventura? Yeah, it took me a little while to get there. Yeah, Ventura. Speaker 1 Yeah, Ventura 13.5 is. Yeah. Speaker 2 Whatever one was previous to this, it's Monterey. I was stuck there for a bit because I just couldn't. I mean, when you do production, you kind of have to like a little bit because there's always bugs in ([Time 0:13:47](https://share.snipd.com/snip/bea30589-cabf-4c6a-aee9-9f3e4c98abcc)) - **Privacy Drives Browser Loyalty** - Users generally dislike embedded advertising companies inside browsers due to privacy concerns. - Safari appeals because it is not Chrome and syncs seamlessly with iPhones, providing privacy and performance benefits. Transcript: Speaker 1 Sometimes you're just used to a thing. What we don't want is an advertising company inside our browsers. Right? I mean, that to me is like, that's what I don't want. Yes. And that advertising company has manifested again. This was just news last week on Ars Technica. Google gets its way, makes a user tracking ad platform directly into Chrome. Now they're calling this, they call it the privacy sandbox, which is a nice bit of marketing, but, you know, because cookies are going, third party cookies are going by the wayside. Apple's made it very difficult for third parties in that way. And Chrome is now saying we're going to be privacy, we're going to be privacy oriented and disable third party cookies eventually. I think they backed off on it in terms of timing again. And they're just baking the tracking right into Chrome through this privacy sandbox. So that's what I don't want in a web browser, really, is that. And I think that that's like not too much diversity on that topic. Like almost everybody is not like, yes, please more of this. Right. Is there anybody that's like excited about having Google in their Chrome? Maybe people have like Google accounts and that it's really useful in that way. Like what will be the upside of having Google in your browser? Is maybe having like the account already, which is kind of the stuff you're talking about with Apple Nick, because like if you could use Google Pay and you're already signed into your Google Pay and like if you could have your Gmail and you're already signed. ([Time 0:28:33](https://share.snipd.com/snip/50b48f58-fc53-4973-9fae-80097af82555)) - **Let Users Try Before Signup** - Browser developers should offer free, no-account-required trials to attract users before asking for payment. - Delaying account creation until users see value increases conversion and reduces signup friction. Transcript: Speaker 1 I know it's going to subscriptions. Yeah. Account as well. So arc is is part and parcel, which means we don't arc browser. What's their long game? What's their model? What's it going to happen? Do we know? And I also think about this. Speaker 3 Like I do like arc, but if I'm not paying them, I feel like, I feel weird about using them because, a, they either won't survive and so I'll get used to it and not like it. Speaker 1 Or B, I'm going to pay for features that I don't actually need or want. I'll add a privacy sandbox in there for you. Yeah, exactly. I don't know what their game plan is, but I do know the challenge of a browser company such as name some of these that you share. These are like developer browsers. Polyplane, I think was one. Yeah. What was the other one? Sizzie. Sizzie. And so these are like browsers for developers. And I love the concept is like we should make a browser specifically for web development. Why not? And that's cool. But then the immediate paywall, I'm just like, ah, DevTools is good. You know, like that's a really an uphill battle for them, don't you think? Speaker 3 I think so. I think that a lot of people have a problem paying for software like that, like browsers, right? But when you think about it as, oh, this is a dev tool. If it actually provides enough value, which I think that both of them do, they both have pretty much identical features. Yeah. I think Sizzie is a little bit nicer, like just in like its interaction and its UI, like its UX is better a little bit, but they're both chromium browsers that support this ability to show You the browser, show you what you're, you're editing and have DevTools with it. But then they can also do things like here's a phone, here's a desktop, here's a desktop and see them all at once and see them all sync together. And then like, you know, if you're developing like the open graph stuff, right, the open graph links, you can see that. And here's an example of what it would look like on Twitter. Here's what it would look like on Facebook. That's cool. Yeah. So you don't have to like go out and do all of this. You can do it with your local host running app and see exactly what it looks like and make sure that's all working. So that's really cool. And then just the convenience of having like, this is not my daily driver browser. This is something that I'm using exclusively for development. So having a development specific browser for it makes sense. It can do really cool like advanced screenshotting things because it knows you're going to want to take screenshots and mark up things and send it over, you know, to your UXT or whatever, To verify things like that. But also just like the simplicity of having a separate browser for development exclusively, especially like on Mac OS, command tabbing over to that is way easier than what does it command Tilde to or is it shift tilde? Would I get remember which one to go between like this Chrome window versus that Chrome window or right? Command tilde, I believe. Speaker 1 That's all cool. And I don't want to sound like I'm denigrating someone for having me pay for their software. I'm totally fine with paying for software that provides value. For sure. Two things that give me pause in this case. First of all, as we were just trying to mount for a podcast, so it wasn't like I was looking for a development browser. So it's kind of like, and secondly, provide a way. So I mean, Polyplane has a free trial. It's not very expensive. Nine bucks a month for an individual. Once you get into the business, you're getting, you know, $39 a month, probably per that's your entire team. So that's three computers per user, 10 users. So 39 bucks across 10 people reasonable. And then of course they have the enterprise. If you have more money than Apple, you can get that one. But free trial, great. But then like an account thing, right at the start, like whatever happened to let me try your software. Yeah. Cause they could easily just do a thing that works. You just download the app. It works for 14 days. And then I ask you for money. Like that's to me is better than this account thing right away. ([Time 0:42:32](https://share.snipd.com/snip/fc66b876-a7d5-4f88-b866-a12fce8044b6)) - **Nick's Viral Vim Video** - Nick's Vim + Tmux video unexpectedly became the most popular Vim video on YouTube. - He struggles to replicate that success despite its wide reach and impact. Transcript: Speaker 1 How many views are on this video? So Nick made a video years ago, his VIM plus T mux set up and how he does everything. And it has hundreds of thousands of views, right? Speaker 3 As 726,000. Speaker 1 Wow, which is better than some of your other videos. You're missing out, Nick. Speaker 3 At one point, I don't think it's true anymore, but at one point, it was the most popular VIM video on YouTube. I checked it a couple of times. I checked it. Speaker 1 All I did, put that on a plaque, you know, put it behind your head there. Speaker 3 All I did was I searched for VIM and then I sorted by most popular, most watched. And then I scrolled past hundreds of videos that were not about the VIM text editor, but were like these like dance videos that just had the word VIM in them for some reason. Sure. But the first one was me. And then there was one right after that. That was it was a thought about video, I think. OK, but yeah, it was it was right up there. Speaker 1 Did the dance videos have more views? Oh, yeah, they must have. These crawl past them all probably. Yeah. Speaker 2 So after you scroll past these highly popular dance videos with the word VIM in them, then you find your video from my video. Speaker 1 OK, which is higher than everybody else's, though. Exactly. That was back when there probably wasn't much dev content. Speaker 2 You really should go into that more than like since they're making a new video or whatever, like if that's, you know, important to you. Speaker 1 Yeah, I'd do a series, man. I've been saying this for years. I wanted Nick to take over our VIM with me series. Remember that Nick? Yes. Speaker 3 I recorded two of them, I think, and I never even told me. Speaker 2 You recorded some of those? Speaker 3 I did. I still have them, I think. Speaker 1 Are they still good? Probably. Or were they ever good? Yeah, probably. Yeah. Are they with other people? Yeah, real people. So a little bit of background. We did this. Now I feel bad because these people expected their videos to get published. So we did a we did a VIM with me series in conjunction. This is Adam's idea in conjunction with our VIM episode a couple of years ago. And so I have like four videos, maybe three. VIM with me, Sue Sinton, Gary Bernhardt, Julia Evans. And Nick, I did one with Nick as well. Speaker 2 All very popular, too, not 700,000 popular, but popular. Yeah, pretty popular, like thousands of people. Yeah. Speaker 1 Lots of likes. And I thought this is kind of cool, but Nick is more of the VIM addicts than I am. And he has this popular VIM video. I was like, why don't you take over a VIM with me, Nick? And you can do the VIM with me videos and you were all about it. I never heard another word. Turns out you you win about it. Record a couple. Speaker 2 We need to close the loop. I know. Speaker 1 Before you have to be recorded or you get demonetized, what's up with this YouTube rerecord thing? I don't understand. Like, why is your video going to get demonetized? Speaker 3 He has to upload new ones. Yeah, my YouTube channel will get your channel is going to become archived or something. Yeah, not archived, but no longer eligible to put gain money in the creator program or whatever. Speaker 1 Yes. Speaker 3 That's it. Speaker 1 How much money have you made out of this video over the years? Just over 12, 1300. It's not bad. I think I say 12 bucks. Yeah, not bad. You're not bucks for doing nothing, right? On 700,000 views. Speaker 2 You did something. It seems like nothing. Speaker 3 But this video, this was a video that I recorded like, I mean, I had no script. I put together like 80 slides, literally an hour before I was doing this presentation. And so there was no thought put into this at all. And it's like far and away, the most popular thing I've ever done. So I can never replicate it. It's the problem. ([Time 0:59:25](https://share.snipd.com/snip/d0bebf3f-4a58-4e04-9478-b86ea00ea903)) - **Privacy and UX Define Browsers** - Privacy and excellent UX are crucial dials users want adjusted in browsers. - Arc and Safari excel at blending privacy and design, while Chrome's material redesign deters some users. Transcript: Speaker 3 Like plus or minus, you know, I want more of this. I think for folks like us, the dial that will probably turn the most is privacy. We want as much privacy as possible when going through this because we don't want to be advertised to about everything. But we also want like as we're all Mac users, we also want something that looks really pretty and as great UX. So that's something that a lot of browsers don't get right. Ark is doing a great job of that. I think Safari is doing a great job. I've been touch Chrome in a long time. I heard that they're redoing things to be more material, which turns me off. ([Time 1:07:51](https://share.snipd.com/snip/903d1f07-a190-4bcf-8957-2102d0c74fa1)) - **Challenges with Arc's Tab Design** - Nick found Arc browser's sidebar tab design confusing and lost tabs by default. - The short tab archiving period led to disorientation, though settings can adjust tab retention. Transcript: Speaker 1 I downloaded a while back. You've been using it for a couple of months. Maybe you just get used to that. I'm constantly looking for my tabs and they're down in the lower left hand corner. And I just can't quite get over that. Have you gotten over it? Speaker 3 No, it's very, very confusing. And by default, they do this weird thing where they have like tabs, like today's tabs and the actual tabs and then they have like bookmarky tab things. Like right. They keep them like that. And if you just keep stuff in, I think today's tabs after 12 hours by default, it just like archives the tabs and they're gone. And you can bring them back, of course, but like, you know, you leave, you know, you leave in the morning or whatever and go back at night and you're like, okay, what was I doing? And all of your tabs are gone. Like that's terrible. Speaker 1 Yeah. Speaker 2 Great idea. But you got to get that implementation right because long live tabs are a thing. Speaker 3 You can adjust it to say, oh, this is never delete them or delete them after a day or a week or a month, I think. And so that's good. There's that flexibility, but by default, I found it to be way too short and they just disappear and then, you know, feel completely lost about what I was doing. ([Time 1:09:45](https://share.snipd.com/snip/343a3dbb-f08e-4d65-980a-33b8d90651a4)) - **Talent and Funding Power Browsers** - Deep financial backing and talent are key to browser survival and innovation. - Andreas Kling's work on Ladybird shows dedication, but browsers require sustained resources and expertise to compete. Transcript: Speaker 3 Are going to be the ones that stick around. Speaker 1 I tell the rich, they rich, Nick, as they just, the deep pockets stay deep that way. There has to be hope for a rise. I agree. Speaker 2 An upstart. Speaker 1 An upstart, whether it's an open source for community or a small business that's trying to make a run on it. I don't know. It also takes talent. You know, that's the thing that I think Andreas Kling has going for him that we didn't really talk about much because of course you don't want to just overly compliment a guy when he's On your show. It'd be interviewed, but he's extremely talented developer. Very. You just know by what he's put together. And so that's why I'm kind of like, well, Ladybird, you know, it's never going to be all these things, but it might have an opportunity because this guy understands web browsers. It's not a small feat because he's even going from the rendering engine up. Like he's not a chromium add on. So like that is a major undertaking and it doesn't just require money. It requires talent and dedication. So it is a tall order. I agree with you. ([Time 1:15:38](https://share.snipd.com/snip/abd1424e-1903-4916-a998-7b26a0d24096)) - **Browsers' Future Tied to Web** - Browsers remain relevant as long as the web remains vital. - VisionOS illustrates how browsers adapt beyond traditional desktop into emerging platforms. Transcript: Speaker 2 But I wonder how long the browser will be in its current form. Like that important. Speaker 3 I think that it'll outlast the desktop. Yeah. I think like vision OS, right? Safari is a very prominent example of what you can do in vision OS and how well it can work. Right. Speaker 2 Yeah, that's true. Speaker 1 As long as the web is relevant, then the browser is relevant, right? Yeah. So when how long will the web survive? Is really the answer to the question. ([Time 1:17:19](https://share.snipd.com/snip/f709c127-9bf5-464f-8d9f-be02a8113af7)) - **Experiment with Safari's Layouts** - Try Safari's compact tab layout to refresh your browsing experience. - Embrace change cautiously to avoid becoming overly rigid in software habits. Transcript: Speaker 3 OK, same. Oh, I'm in like OS level settings. Night. Speaker 1 I'm a woman like all hackers live in light. I couldn't go there for everything. I go light mode during the day, night mode during the night. I just feel like that's the way life should be. It's nighttime. It's the right time for darkness. Speaker 2 Undarked mode in most cases for some things. Speaker 1 Yeah, I don't know if I have a separate like accessibility setting on or something, but it's not happening for me. Anyways, this is turning into troubleshooting. Speaker 2 I can see why you like it, Nick. That is a good point. But it just litters that top bar up quite a bit. Speaker 3 That's true. Speaker 2 I don't know if I go back between separate versus compact. Speaker 3 The separate just looks so old to me now. Speaker 1 It is the old school way of doing it. I'm going to try compact for a little while. I'm done with the arc, but I'm going to try compact. See if I like it after a week. You might be on something here. This might be OK because I don't want to be so crotchety, so rigid that I refuse to have any change in my life. ([Time 1:32:00](https://share.snipd.com/snip/f0cdc9c4-1d8d-4962-a2b5-538fceed1b36))