What Exactly IS Progressive Christianity Caleb Lines TNE Podcasts

What Exactly IS Progressive Christianity? | Caleb Lines | TNE Podcasts 🔗 **Source:** [What Exactly IS Progressive Christianity? | Caleb Lines | TNE Podcasts](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sa6eUAqPJGc) > [!note]+ Document Notes > tags: [progressive-christianity, theology, social-justice] > author: TNE Podcasts > source: YouTube > reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sa6eUAqPJGc > date created: 2025-01-28 14:00 > > # 🏷️ Title: What Exactly IS Progressive Christianity? | Caleb Lines | TNE Podcasts >  ## 🧰 Action Inbox - [H1] Define progressive Christianity using five core values — Center for Progressive Christianity framework #progressive-christianity - [H2] Examine difference between authentic welcome vs conditional acceptance — church inclusion practices #inclusion - [H3] Develop modern worship that combines progressive values with engaging presentation — worship innovation #worship ## 🧭 Table of Contents - [📝 Summary](#-summary) - [📖 Main Content](#-main-content) - [🗒️ Notes](#️-notes) - [📚 References](#-references) - [🗣️ Paraphrase](#️-paraphrase) - [📰 Newsletter](#-newsletter) - [✅ Action Items](#-action-items) - [🧪 Hypotheses](#-hypotheses) - [📊 Methodology](#-methodology) - [❓ Questions](#-questions) - [🔮 Future Research](#-future-research) - [💡 Implications](#-implications) - [🧠 Learning Styles Assessment](#-learning-styles-assessment) - [📊 Accessibility Assessment](#-accessibility-assessment) - [🌍 DEIB Assessment](#-deib-assessment) - [✅ Logical Validity](#-logical-validity) - [🛡️ DARVO Analysis](#-darvo-analysis) - [🎯 Conclusion](#-conclusion) ### 🔗 References - [Center for Progressive Christianity](https://progressivechristianity.org/) - [TNE Podcasts YouTube Channel](https://www.youtube.com/@TNEPodcasts) ## 📝 Summary - Rev. Dr. Caleb Lines discusses progressive Christianity's core values and practices with TNE Podcasts - Progressive Christianity emerged in 1994 as alternative to fundamentalist nationalism, defined by five core values - Churches often use welcoming language while maintaining exclusionary practices toward LGBTQ+ individuals - Progressive spaces struggle with worship presentation despite having inclusive theology - Content creators are reshaping theological discourse through viral social media engagement ## 📖 Main Content Progressive Christianity represents a theological movement that began in 1994 when Episcopal priest Jim Adams coined the term to distinguish mainstream Christian beliefs from fundamentalist nationalism. The movement centers on five core values: following Jesus while recognizing truth in other traditions, seeking inclusive community, striving for peace and justice, embracing scientific insights and environmental stewardship, and committing to lifelong learning over absolutes. The conversation reveals tension between authentic inclusion and performative welcome in churches. Many congregations claim to be welcoming while maintaining exclusionary policies, particularly regarding LGBTQ+ service and leadership. Progressive Christianity emphasizes authentic discipleship focused on Jesus's vision of God's reign on earth rather than individual salvation or afterlife concerns. A significant challenge facing progressive Christianity is presentation and worship style. While many progressive churches hold inclusive values, they often struggle with engaging worship experiences compared to evangelical megachurches that present modern aesthetics while teaching fundamentalist theology. This creates a paradox where progressive content is packaged in traditional formats while exclusionary theology gets modern presentation. ## 🗒️ Notes #### ⏱️ [00:00](https://youtu.be/Sa6eUAqPJGc?t=0) — [H1] Introduction to Caleb Lines and progressive Christianity discussion - Key idea: TNE Podcasts highlights pastors providing better faith pathways - Evidence: "We are in the middle of a series of highlighting pastors that are providing a better path forward in faith" #### ⏱️ [05:23](https://youtu.be/Sa6eUAqPJGc?t=323) — [H2] Lines's journey into digital ministry and content creation - Key idea: Digital ministry preparation proved essential during COVID-19 pandemic - Evidence: "We actually found new life and grew during that time because of our preparedness" #### ⏱️ [12:45](https://youtu.be/Sa6eUAqPJGc?t=765) — [H3] People seek authentic religion over organized religion's failures - Key idea: Spirituality interest remains high while church trust declines - Evidence: "People continue to be interested in spirituality... people have found organized religion to be a poor mediator of God's presence" #### ⏱️ [18:30](https://youtu.be/Sa6eUAqPJGc?t=1110) — [H2] Progressive Christianity's definitional challenge and core values - Key idea: Progressive Christianity emerged in 1994 with five defining core values - Evidence: "That term had never been used before 1994 when [Jim Adams] established the Center for Progressive Christianity" #### ⏱️ [25:15](https://youtu.be/Sa6eUAqPJGc?t=1515) — [H3] Five core values of progressive Christianity explained - Key idea: Values emphasize Jesus's teachings, inclusion, justice, science, and learning - Evidence: "Believe that following the way and teachings of Jesus can lead to experiencing sacredness, wholeness, and unity of all life" #### ⏱️ [32:40](https://youtu.be/Sa6eUAqPJGc?t=1960) — [H2] Lines's background in progressive Missouri church environment - Key idea: Growing up progressive in conservative context shaped ministry approach - Evidence: "My model for ministry... was just making everybody around you mad because everyone was always really frustrated with our church" #### ⏱️ [38:20](https://youtu.be/Sa6eUAqPJGc?t=2300) — [H3] Church language of welcome versus actual practices - Key idea: Many churches use inclusive language while maintaining exclusionary policies - Evidence: "Churches will do a very good job of making you feel welcome... but then when they found out I was gay, I couldn't serve" #### ⏱️ [45:50](https://youtu.be/Sa6eUAqPJGc?t=2750) — [H2] Progressive Christianity as authentic Christianity - Key idea: Progressive Christianity aims for authentic following of Jesus's teachings - Evidence: "What I mean by progressive Christianity... is authentic Christianity... authentically following the teachings of Jesus" #### ⏱️ [52:30](https://youtu.be/Sa6eUAqPJGc?t=3150) — [H3] Moving beyond heaven/hell motivation to kingdom focus - Key idea: Progressive faith emphasizes God's reign on earth over afterlife concerns - Evidence: "Making progress towards what Jesus called the Basilea of God, the reign of God on earth" #### ⏱️ [58:45](https://youtu.be/Sa6eUAqPJGc?t=3525) — [H2] Stories don't need factual accuracy to convey truth - Key idea: Biblical narratives communicate meaning beyond literal interpretation - Evidence: "Stories don't have to be factual to be true" #### ⏱️ [65:20](https://youtu.be/Sa6eUAqPJGc?t=3920) — [H3] Jesus as model for confronting oppressive systems - Key idea: Jesus demonstrated how to resist empire and religious purity culture - Evidence: "Jesus modeled in a very real concrete way how it is that you stand up to an oppressive empire" #### ⏱️ [72:15](https://youtu.be/Sa6eUAqPJGc?t=4335) — [H2] Challenge of sitting in ambiguity versus certainty - Key idea: Progressive faith's comfort with uncertainty can be difficult for those seeking answers - Evidence: "It can be hard to sit in ambiguity... it's hard to admit that there are things that we don't know" #### ⏱️ [78:30](https://youtu.be/Sa6eUAqPJGc?t=4710) — [H3] Progressive churches' worship presentation challenges - Key idea: Progressive churches often struggle with engaging worship despite inclusive values - Evidence: "We often think that... everything has to be super serious... you can't have any fun" #### ⏱️ [85:40](https://youtu.be/Sa6eUAqPJGc?t=5140) — [H2] Denominational structure and accountability in progressive spaces - Key idea: Congregational autonomy with denominational covenant provides accountability framework - Evidence: "The power actually all lies at the congregational level and the congregations can decide for themselves" ## 📚 References - [Center for Progressive Christianity Core Values](https://progressivechristianity.org/about/values/) - [Marcus Borg's Writing on Faith Development](https://marcusjborg.org/) - [John Dominic Crossan Biblical Scholarship](https://www.westarinstitute.org/membership/westar-fellows/john-dominic-crossan/) ## 🗣️ Paraphrase - Progressive Christianity emerged as a 1994 response to fundamentalist nationalism, emphasizing Jesus's teachings while acknowledging truth in other traditions and prioritizing inclusion, justice, and scientific compatibility - Many churches practice "performative inclusion" by using welcoming language while maintaining exclusionary policies, particularly regarding LGBTQ+ participation in leadership and service roles - The movement faces presentation challenges where progressive theology gets packaged in traditional worship formats while fundamentalist churches use modern aesthetics, creating a disconnect between values and engagement ## 📰 Newsletter **Progressive Christianity Seeks Authenticity Over Performance** Rev. Dr. Caleb Lines offers insights into progressive Christianity's core mission: authentic discipleship focused on Jesus's vision of justice and inclusion. The movement, born in 1994, challenges both fundamentalist nationalism and performative church inclusion. Key takeaway: Progressive faith emphasizes God's reign on earth through five core values - following Jesus while respecting other traditions, genuine inclusion, peace through justice, scientific compatibility, and lifelong learning over rigid certainty. The challenge? Many progressive churches struggle with engaging worship presentation while fundamentalist churches package exclusionary theology in modern formats. Lines advocates for combining progressive values with compelling community experiences. **Resources for Deeper Exploration:** - Center for Progressive Christianity core values and resources - Digital ministry innovation in post-pandemic church contexts - Authentic inclusion practices versus performative welcome strategies Connect with progressive Christian communities working toward justice, inclusion, and authentic discipleship in your area. ## ✅ Action Items #### DevRel - Developer advocacy: Create APIs for progressive Christian resource discovery and community matching - Education: Design workshops on digital ministry tools for progressive congregations - Developer experience: Build documentation for faith community platform integrations - Developer marketing: Campaign highlighting inclusive technology solutions for religious communities - Community management: Moderate progressive Christian developer forums and feedback systems #### OSPO - Policy & Governance: Develop open source policies for religious organization technology sharing - License Compliance: Review faith-based software for appropriate licensing and attribution - Security Management: Implement security protocols for religious community platforms handling sensitive member data - Software Inventory: Create SBOM strategy for church management systems and digital ministry tools - Developer Support: Provide training on ethical technology use in religious contexts - Community Engagement: Fund upstream contributions to inclusive community platform projects - Strategic Alignment: Align technology initiatives with progressive Christian values and social justice goals #### Community - Maintainers: Support progressive Christian content creators with platform governance templates - Contributors: Create first-issue programs for faith-based open source projects - Sponsors: Develop transparent funding models for progressive Christian media and technology - Ecosystem: Coordinate between progressive denominational technology initiatives #### WordPress - Core: Prioritize accessibility features supporting diverse worship and community needs - Community: Develop meetup kits for faith-based WordPress communities and interfaith technology collaboration - Training: Create lesson plans on website accessibility for religious organizations - Marketing: Campaign narratives highlighting WordPress use in progressive faith communities - Support: Develop SLAs for religious organization website hosting and security - Design: UX audits for faith community websites focusing on inclusive design principles - Documentation: Address gaps in religious organization website best practices #### The WPCC - Programs: Fellowship programs supporting progressive Christian content creators and digital ministry innovation - Projects: Documentation sprints for faith-based community platform governance - Funding: Matched grants for progressive religious organization technology infrastructure #### FAIR - Technical independence: Metadata standards for religious content provenance and attribution - Policies: Funding transparency requirements for faith-based technology initiatives - Governance artifacts: Charter templates for interfaith technology collaboration ## 🧪 Hypotheses - Progressive Christianity's emphasis on authenticity over certainty attracts individuals leaving fundamentalist traditions but may struggle to retain those seeking definitive spiritual answers - Churches combining progressive values with modern worship presentation will demonstrate higher engagement and growth rates than those maintaining traditional liturgical formats - Digital ministry content creation reshapes theological authority from institutional seminaries toward viral content creators and social media theologians - Congregational polity structures in progressive denominations provide better accountability mechanisms than hierarchical systems while maintaining local autonomy ### 📊 Methodology - Longitudinal study tracking retention rates across progressive churches with varying worship styles and presentation approaches - Content analysis comparing theological messaging in viral progressive Christian social media versus traditional seminary publications - Survey research examining spiritual satisfaction levels among progressive Christians based on worship format preferences and certainty tolerance - Case studies of denominational accountability responses to misconduct across hierarchical versus congregational governance structures ### ❓ Questions - How can progressive churches balance theological inclusivity with the human need for spiritual certainty and clear guidance? - What role should viral social media content play in shaping progressive Christian theology and practice? - How might progressive Christianity address the presentation gap between values-driven content and engaging community experiences? ### 🔮 Future Research - Investigate correlation between worship presentation styles and long-term progressive Christian community engagement - Explore development of progressive Christian theological education that incorporates digital ministry and content creation skills - Study interfaith collaboration opportunities emerging from progressive Christianity's openness to truth in other traditions ### 💡 Implications - Practice: Progressive churches need strategic focus on worship presentation innovation while maintaining theological integrity - Policy: Denominational structures should develop frameworks for digital ministry accountability and content creator oversight - Security: Religious organizations require enhanced data protection policies for online community platforms and member information - Education: Theological education programs should integrate digital ministry training and social media ethics curriculum - Funding: Progressive Christian organizations need sustainable funding models for content creation and digital community building ### 🧠 Learning Styles Assessment Reading level estimate: 12th grade (Flesch-Kincaid Grade Level) #### 👀 Visual learners - Present: Video format with speaker presentations and visual examples - Improve: Add infographics comparing progressive vs fundamentalist Christian values, timeline of progressive Christianity development #### 🔊 Aural learners - Present: Full audio podcast format with conversational dialogue - Improve: Create 5-minute audio summary highlighting key progressive Christianity definitions #### 🗣️ Verbal learners - Present: Extensive definitions, analogies between religious traditions, theological term explanations - Improve: Story-driven explanations of progressive Christian community experiences, comparison charts #### 🧩 Kinesthetic learners - Present: Discussion of practical church experiences and community engagement - Improve: Checklists for identifying authentic vs performative church inclusion, hands-on community assessment tools #### 🧠 Logical learners - Present: Structured five core values framework, historical timeline, cause-effect relationships - Improve: Decision trees for evaluating church authenticity, logical progression from fundamentalism to progressive faith #### 🧑‍🤝‍🧑 Social learners - Present: Conversational podcast format, community discussion emphasis - Improve: Group discussion guides, progressive Christian community connection resources #### 🧘‍♀️ Solitary learners - Present: Individual reflection on faith journey and theological development - Improve: Self-assessment worksheets for progressive Christian values alignment, personal spiritual inventory tools #### 🌿 Naturalistic learners - Present: Environmental stewardship as core progressive Christian value - Improve: Creation care theology connections, ecological justice as spiritual practice ### 📊 Accessibility Assessment #### Screen reader semantics - Present: Clear dialogue structure, speaker identification - Improve: Add detailed alt text for any visual elements, ensure transcript includes speaker names and context #### Keyboard navigation - Present: Standard video player controls accessible - Improve: Ensure all embedded links and resources meet keyboard navigation standards #### Contrast and readability - Present: Standard video format with clear audio - Improve: Verify any text overlays meet 4.5:1 contrast ratio requirements #### Text resizing and reflow - Present: Video format adapts to device sizing - Improve: Ensure accompanying text content responds appropriately to zoom levels up to 200% #### Media and captions - Present: Full transcript provided - Improve: Add closed captions with speaker identification, provide downloadable transcript option #### Forms and interactions - Present: Basic video interaction controls - Improve: Ensure any subscription or feedback forms meet accessibility standards with proper labels #### Standards reference - Address WCAG 2.2 AA compliance for time-based media and information structure ### 🌍 --- ## Full Transcript [00:04] [music] [00:16] [music] [00:26] [music] [00:28] Hey friends, welcome back to the New [00:29] Evangelicals podcast. I hope that you're [00:31] all doing well. Happy New Year. It's [00:33] still January, which is great. We are in [00:35] the middle of a series of highlighting [00:38] pastors that are providing a better path [00:40] forward in faith. You know, as an [00:41] organization, as a nonprofit, that is a [00:43] key staple to what we do, helping people [00:46] find a better path forward rooted in [00:48] love, justice, and inclusivity. And so, [00:50] today I brought on Reverend Dr. Caleb J. [00:53] Hines. You might have seen him. He goes [00:55] viral on Instagram all the time. We had [00:57] a great discussion about progressive [00:59] Christianity. What do we do in the face [01:00] of Christian nationalism and what does a [01:02] better path forward look like as people [01:05] who might of who might be coming out of [01:07] uh evangelical conservative [01:09] fundamentalism. So, I hope you enjoyed [01:10] this conversation. Talk to you all [01:12] later. All right. Uh, Reverend Dr. Caleb [01:15] J. Lines, I think I got that all [01:17] correct. It's so good to have you on the [01:18] show finally. I've seen your content all [01:20] over Instagram. You've gone mega mega [01:22] mega viral several times, which means [01:24] you're rich. We all know how it goes, [01:26] right? When you go viral [laughter] on [01:27] it on the internet, you get millions of [01:29] followers. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's [01:31] like a dollar per view, you know. So, [01:33] [laughter] [01:36] >> great to have you. [01:36] >> Yeah. I haven't quite figured that out [01:38] yet. I don't. [laughter] [01:39] >> Yeah. Solidarity, my friend. It's good [01:41] to have you on the show. I I I really [01:43] appreciate you making time. Uh you're in [01:44] San Diego and we're doing this month for [01:47] January, um we're doing a pastors [01:49] Leading the Way series. So, we've had [01:51] some other amazing pastors on. I had to [01:53] get you on because I've seen your [01:55] content and it's great and it tends to [01:56] resonate with other people. I'm kind of [01:58] curious, how did you get into the [02:00] content creation game as as someone [02:02] who's in full-time ministry as a pastor? [02:05] Yeah. Well, uh kind of by accident in [02:08] some ways by accident and in other ways [02:10] maybe not by accident. Uh so I did do my [02:12] doctorate on digital media and so I knew [02:15] that this was something that I was [02:17] interested in and uh I started that [02:20] program back in 2017 and I thought this [02:23] is the future of church and I finished [02:26] my my dissertation [02:28] right in March of 2020 and so it was [02:34] super relevant for what was going on and [02:37] you know so we the good thing was that [02:39] like when co that our church had been [02:42] thinking about this for several years [02:43] and we were geared up and ready to go [02:46] for for co and what we discovered was [02:49] that while a lot of churches really [02:52] struggled and they declined during that [02:55] time that we actually found new life and [02:58] grew during that time because of uh our [03:02] preparedness for that. So that that [03:04] doesn't that doesn't mean I don't think [03:06] I was in the content game as much as we [03:08] were just trying to make sure that uh [03:10] our church was in a healthy place. [03:13] Around that time I also started leading [03:16] along with my friend uh Mark Sandlin the [03:19] center for progressive Christianity [03:20] which has been around for 30 some odd [03:22] years and so we switched you know so I [03:25] was doing digital stuff there as well [03:29] >> but quickly saw that it was something [03:32] that had a really great potential and so [03:35] I guess it it was a few years later that [03:38] I I got on TikTok after a friend had [03:41] encouraged me to do that and really [03:44] largely with what we were doing at [03:45] Progressive Christianity. And so I I [03:49] made a video for uh Tik Tok and I was [03:52] talking about the uh the he gets us [03:55] campaign and um I I just had taken a [03:59] clip from a communion meditation about [04:02] how that was not compat how there were [04:04] so much better ways to use money and how [04:07] such some of that might sound good but [04:09] it really wasn't compatible with Jesus. [04:12] And that first clip kind of went viral [04:13] and I thought, "Wow, this is really a [04:15] powerful medium to to reach people." And [04:19] so, uh, everything kind of, I think, [04:21] grew from there that, uh, that I think [04:24] what people are really looking for, Tim, [04:26] I think with with the work that you're [04:28] doing at New Evangelicals, which I [04:30] really appreciate. I really admire the [04:32] work you're doing that I I think that in [04:34] the work that we're all commonly doing [04:36] is that people really just want [04:37] authentic religion. You know, they want [04:39] to see that when people say that they [04:42] love others, that they are [04:44] compassionate, that they are caring, [04:46] that instead of then going and doing the [04:48] opposite of what they said from the [04:50] pulpit on Sunday morning, that they [04:52] actually believe that. And you know, all [04:54] these studies that showed church decline [04:57] and all um also show that people [05:01] continue to be interested in [05:02] spirituality. It's not that like people [05:04] have stopped asking the big significant [05:06] questions. It's just that people have [05:07] found organized religion to be a poor [05:09] mediator of God's presence. And I mean, [05:12] uh, yes, that's accurate. Organized [05:14] religion has been and continues to be a [05:17] poor mediator of God and the the quest [05:19] for authentic spirituality. And so, I [05:21] think one of the things that really has [05:23] kept me in digital creation is this this [05:27] search for authenticity and the [05:30] connection with people who have really [05:32] been looking for that. Is that something [05:34] that you found too? and in the in the [05:36] work that you've been doing. [05:38] >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, um, my the audience [05:42] knows the story. I told it a thousand [05:43] times with the short stories. I really [05:45] started TN completely by accident. You [05:46] know, I it it happened in December of [05:48] 2020. I was still serving as a drummer [05:50] in my evangelical church. I was still [05:52] all in on Jesus, but I had real [05:54] questions. I was like really concerned, [05:56] you know, between Trump and Black Lives [05:59] Matter and COVID. I was like, what is [06:01] going on with my faith tradition? And so [06:04] I had this name in my head, the New [06:05] Evangelicals. I was a volunteer, never [06:08] never on staff as a pastor, no [06:09] theological training, just a I was every [06:12] pastor's dream person. All-in volunteer. [06:15] So I started the account and asked a lot [06:17] of questions and turned out I wasn't the [06:18] only one. I thought I was. And that's [06:20] how this whole thing got started. It got [06:22] started that way. I had no dreams of [06:24] being a nonprofit or being at this big [06:26] organization that was making all this [06:28] content. But yeah, I just found that not [06:30] only was were they looking for [06:32] authenticity, I was looking for [06:34] authenticity because like you said [06:36] earlier, I could not square how the same [06:40] people who gave me these super strict [06:42] sexual ethics, which by the way I [06:44] followed. I was a virgin when I got [06:46] married, how all of a sudden I was the [06:48] crazy one because I couldn't vote for a [06:50] man bragging about sexually assaulting [06:51] women. Like I could not reconcile that [06:54] logic. I I wasn't a liberal. I was still [06:56] listening to Ben Shapiro. This was not [06:58] some like, oh, I hate my faith. It was I [07:02] am so I'm so committed to the way of [07:04] Jesus that like something isn't adding [07:06] up. So yes, to answer your question, I [07:09] have found that time and time again. And [07:10] like you said, I've realized too the [07:13] power of social media, which is why TN [07:15] does what it does as as a media [07:17] organization and also a community space [07:19] because media is really powerful. And [07:21] look, I tell people often, you have to [07:23] hand it to right-wing conservative [07:25] empire. They have done a really good job [07:27] early on getting on social media. [07:29] They've done a really good job using the [07:31] power of rage bait and using the [07:33] algorithm to push their stuff. And [07:35] frankly, I'm not sure how you feel about [07:37] this, but I feel like progressive [07:38] Christians are way behind on that medium [07:41] personally. [07:42] >> Oh yeah. I've been way behind in [07:44] adopting like effective forms of [07:46] communication that actually reach people [07:48] because we're still for the most part [07:51] stuck in this kind of 1950s model of [07:53] what churches ought to be and what [07:55] religion is and it it doesn't work [07:57] anymore. And so yeah, we've been slow to [08:00] adopt uh actual ways to reach people and [08:04] I mean we've also been slow to get on [08:06] the same page. I mean, another thing [08:08] that you can say about the right is that [08:10] they've recognized that they don't have [08:12] to agree on everything to agree on some [08:15] things and to work together and to give [08:17] people marching orders that then [08:19] churches have gone out and preached [08:21] about each week and that their [08:23] theologians have been writing about and [08:26] and all of these things that in the more [08:29] progressive space we just haven't done. [08:31] And part of it is by the nature of I [08:33] think what it means to be a progressive [08:35] religion, right? like we don't want to [08:37] tell people what to believe. We want to [08:39] leave room for interpretation. We want [08:42] to uh have tough conversations, but at [08:46] the same time, uh in doing that, it's [08:49] made it seem like, you know, we don't [08:51] really agree on anything. And that's [08:54] just not true. And so I think if we were [08:56] to be able to uh really get online in in [09:00] a more effective way, which I I do think [09:03] we're starting to see happen, but it's [09:05] also it's also [09:07] >> shifting the way that theology has often [09:10] been done because a lot of theology is [09:12] being done by people like you and me and [09:14] other creators online that are that are [09:18] reaching people in different ways. And I [09:20] don't I don't think that's a bad thing, [09:22] but I do think it is a change in the way [09:25] that theology has been approached. But [09:28] yeah, I I certainly think that [09:30] progressives adopting forms of [09:33] communication that can actually reach [09:34] people is pretty important. [09:36] >> Yeah, [laughter] I agree. Well, why [09:37] don't we do this? I I want to I want the [09:39] audience to to see and listen to one of [09:41] your viral videos and I want to kind of [09:44] talk about it because I will tell you [09:45] what you say in this video is everything [09:47] that I was taught not to believe as a [09:50] good conservative fundamentalist [09:51] Christian. So I'm going to play this [09:53] video in its entirety and then we'll [09:54] talk about it. Here we go. [09:56] >> All right. Magga versus Jesus round 12. [09:59] Maga says the Bible is against abortion. [10:02] But the Bible says God breathed into his [10:05] nostrils the breath of life and the man [10:07] became a living being. The Bible defines [10:10] life as beginning at first breath, not [10:13] conception. But you know what? In the [10:15] 21st century, we shouldn't be using the [10:17] Bible to determine when life begins [10:19] because the Bible isn't a scientific [10:22] book. MAGA says they're cancelling us. [10:26] But the Bible says, "Whoever hates [10:29] correction is stupid." [10:31] >> That one got me. [10:32] >> The Bible said it, not me. I'm just [10:34] quoting scripture here. [laughter] But [10:36] if the shoe fits, we should always be [10:38] receptive to new information. And if we [10:40] discover that something we are saying or [10:42] doing is causing harm to other people, [10:45] then we should absolutely stop saying or [10:48] doing those things that are causing [10:50] harm. Maga says, "We need men to be men [10:54] again." But the Bible says there is [10:57] neither male nor female for you are all [10:59] one in the body of Christ. Jesus didn't [11:02] call for macho followers. He called for [11:04] faithful ones. In fact, all other [11:06] identities were to become secondary to [11:08] our identity as followers of Jesus [11:10] Christ. Maga says fake news, but Jesus [11:15] says you will know the truth and the [11:18] truth will set you free. It's funny how [11:22] fake news is anything that is actually [11:25] factual. [11:27] The truth, knowing real information, [11:31] will set us free from fascism. [11:34] >> You see, the teachings of Mega are [11:37] simply incompatible with the teachings [11:39] of Jesus Christ. [11:42] >> Great video. Great video. Did you get a [11:44] lot I mean that that video I think has [11:46] like over a million likes, which is [11:48] crazy on Instagram last time I checked. [11:50] Have you gotten a lot of push back? How [11:52] how have your DMs been? [laughter] [11:56] >> Well, you know how it goes, Tim. You you [11:58] get uh you get people who tell you [12:01] you're going to burn in hell and how [12:03] dare you and you're a wolf in sheep's [12:05] clothing and all that And then [12:08] you've also got people who say, "Wow, um [12:12] I've never been interested in faith at [12:14] all and now I am." And so it's a mixed [12:18] bag. And uh that's part of it. But [12:21] that's that's what ministry is [12:23] altogether. I think [12:24] >> I'm really curious. Uh I I I wanted to [12:26] circle back on this point. You said that [12:27] you were like one of the directors or [12:29] leaders of the Center for Progressive [12:31] Christianity, which actually made me uh [12:33] think of I've always had a question that [12:35] I never been really able to answer. What [12:38] exactly is progressive Christianity? [12:40] like is there a set of definitions, [12:43] tenants, like core values that like in [12:46] order to be labeled a progressive [12:47] Christian you have to adhere to? I've [12:49] always wondered that because I can kind [12:51] of give you like the vibe for [12:52] evangelicalism pretty easily. Uh even [12:54] though that's pretty broad too, but like [12:56] is there what is progressive [12:58] Christianity? Give me give me your view. [13:01] So I think that this is something that [13:03] is an like an ongoing and evolving uh [13:07] statement and uh thought and it kind of [13:09] depends on who you ask but I will say [13:12] that [13:13] >> the term progressive Christianity wasn't [13:15] really used until 1994 when Jim Row [13:19] Adams who was an Episcopal priest said [13:22] hey there's got to be something [13:24] different than kind of the Christian [13:26] nationalist fundamentalist Christianity [13:28] that is out there because it's not [13:30] compat compatible with, I think, what we [13:31] used to call mainline Protestantism, [13:33] like the kind of the the mainstream [13:36] Christian belief that used to be in the [13:39] United States. And so he said, "Okay, [13:42] well, we're going to call that [13:44] progressive Christianity." And actually, [13:46] that term had never been used before [13:49] 1994 when he established the Center for [13:52] Progressive Christianity. And by the end [13:55] of the decade, it was being used [13:57] internationally. But I do think that [13:59] people have different definitions of [14:00] what that means. And often I think [14:03] progressive Christians themselves will [14:05] say things like, well, it means that I [14:09] don't believe X Y and Z, you know, like [14:12] I I don't believe in a literal biblical [14:16] trans uh interpretation for instance. So [14:20] uh one of the things that we have always [14:22] had is what used to be called the eight [14:25] points of progressive Christianity. and [14:28] what we now call the core values of [14:30] progressive Christianity. So we have [14:32] five core values that seeks to define [14:35] what it means to be a progressive [14:37] Christian in positive terms. And I'll [14:39] just share them with you, Tim. It says, [14:41] "By calling ourselves progressive [14:42] Christians, we mean we are Christians [14:44] who number one believe that following [14:47] the way and teachings of Jesus can lead [14:50] to experiencing sacredness, wholeness, [14:52] and unity of all life even as we [14:55] recognize that the spirit moves in [14:56] beneficial ways in many faith [14:58] traditions. So acknowledging that we [15:02] find meaning in the life and teachings [15:04] of Jesus while also recognizing that we [15:07] don't have a monopoly on the truth that [15:10] there is truth and other traditions. [15:12] Point two, seek community that is [15:14] inclusive of all people honoring [15:16] differences in theological perspective, [15:18] age, race, sexual orientation, gender [15:20] identity, expression, class, or ability. [15:22] So a a religion that seeks to be [15:25] inclusive, that seeks to welcome people [15:28] in. Point three, strive for peace and [15:31] justice among all people, knowing that [15:32] behaving with compassion and selfless [15:35] love towards one another is the fullest [15:37] expression of what we believe. Point [15:40] four, embrace the insights of [15:42] contemporary science and strive to [15:44] protect the earth and ensure its [15:45] integrity and sustainability. So I think [15:47] that one is important, right? that we [15:50] seek an intellectually honest faith that [15:53] is compatible with what we know to be [15:55] factually true about the universe. So [15:59] like progressive Christians wouldn't [16:00] believe in a literal 7-day creation for [16:03] instance, right? Because we we know [16:04] factually that's just not accurate. [16:07] >> And point five, commit to a path of [16:09] lifelong learning. Believe there is more [16:11] value in questioning than in absolutes. [16:14] Of course, one of the push backs we get [16:17] on these five core values, I think, is [16:19] that we don't really define God in there [16:22] or we don't really talk a lot about [16:25] about God and what that means. And [16:27] that's that's also kind of intentional, [16:30] right? That that that is a piece that I [16:32] think progressive Christians are open to [16:36] discussing what exactly that means and [16:39] what our understanding of that is. So [16:42] whenever I I have to give like a a a [16:45] description of what it means to be a [16:47] progressive Christian, I think these [16:49] core values are a pretty good place to [16:52] start. [16:53] >> I mean, I just heard a lot of woke [16:55] nonsense and toxic empathy, you know, in [16:57] [laughter] those five statements. So it [16:59] is interesting because, you know, as as [17:01] you're talking [17:03] Well, let me ask you this before I go [17:05] forward. Uh did you how did you did you [17:07] grow up like mainline progressive [17:08] Christian? Were you did you grow up, you [17:09] know, fundamentalist? What's your faith [17:11] background? [17:12] >> Yeah. So, I grew up in rural Missouri. [17:15] >> Solid. [17:16] >> But in a uh so everyone around me was [17:19] like Southern Baptist, right, and [17:21] fundamentalist. And I grew up in a [17:24] mainline Protestant church, uh the [17:27] Christian church, Disciples of Christ. [17:29] >> Uh which, you know, weird name, but [17:32] mainline Protestant church. And oddly [17:35] enough, even though like fundamentalism [17:38] was in the water, I grew up in a [17:40] progressive space. And so the example I [17:43] had for ministry was my pastor uh who [17:47] would write this weekly newspaper [17:49] column. And the newspaper editor was a [17:51] member of our congregation and I guess [17:54] is the only way he got this column. And [17:56] so he would write about things like like [17:59] social justice and about biblical [18:01] interpretation about like nonliteral [18:04] biblical interpretation. For instance, [18:06] the first place I ever heard uh about uh [18:09] queer affirmation was actually in church [18:12] growing up. It I mean certainly wasn't [18:14] you know in school or or any place in [18:17] the culture. I I grew up also in a [18:19] family that you know that taught me to [18:21] that social justice was important. So [18:24] that was a part of kind of my family [18:26] growing up too. So it was odd because on [18:30] the one hand I was in a very progressive [18:32] space in a very conservative part of the [18:34] world. So kind of my model for ministry, [18:37] what I thought ministry was [18:39] >> was just making everybody around you mad [18:42] because everyone was always really [18:44] frustrated with our church. I mean I [18:45] grew up Tim from the time I was, you [18:48] know, a little kid. Uh whenever people [18:50] would find out where I went to church, [18:51] they'd just be like, "Well, you're going [18:53] to hell. you're a wolf in sheep's [18:54] clothing, blah blah. So, I mean, so the [18:56] DMs don't bother me. I mean, I've [18:57] [laughter] literally heard that my [18:59] entire life. So, it's it's fine, you [19:01] [gasps] know. [19:02] >> You know, it's funny. I grew up in the [19:04] exact opposite. I grew up in New Jersey, [19:06] a very liberal state in a very [19:08] conservative, homeschooled, private [19:10] school bubble. Uh, that was Christian [19:13] fundamentalism like through and through. [19:14] So, it's interesting to to see the [19:16] difference. And I asked that because, [19:18] you know, in in in the evangelical [19:20] world, especially the one that I grew up [19:21] in, and I I think even for most white [19:25] evangelicals today, you know, a lot of [19:27] like the the way that things are phrased [19:29] could almost sound somewhat compatible [19:32] with some of those statements. Not to [19:34] the fullest extent, but they'll say, [19:35] "All are welcome here, right? We love [19:37] God, love people. Of course, we want to [19:40] steward the earth and make sure that we [19:42] take care of it." That's that's not a [19:44] bad thing. But I've learned over time [19:47] those statements have radically [19:49] different implications [19:51] than what they mean for me now. Right? [19:55] Like I've learned that all are welcome [19:57] here is well but can gay people serve at [20:00] your church unless they repent of their [20:03] sinfulness? Oh, they can't. Okay, so [20:05] they're only welcome to a fault or or to [20:07] to a certain line, right? or okay, so [20:09] you believe in taking care of the [20:11] planet, but any legislation that might, [20:13] you know, restrict big corporations from [20:15] polluting or that might try and lower [20:18] carbon emissions is like the deep state [20:20] and globalism and it's bad for for [20:22] society. Have I know that that you [20:25] didn't grow up necessarily encountering [20:26] it directly, but have you in your [20:29] ministry as you've gotten older, have [20:31] you seen that same thing as well where [20:32] the words that you hear from some of [20:34] these spaces do not line up with the [20:37] actions that they actually take? [20:39] >> Absolutely. I mean, I've get people who [20:41] come to my church all the time and my [20:43] congregation was the first open and [20:45] affirming congregation in the Disciples [20:47] of Christ in Southern California. So, [20:49] like we've got a a history of advocacy, [20:51] especially for LGBT folks. And a lot of [20:55] the people who come through the doors of [20:57] the church are are LGBT identifying. And [21:00] so, they will often have tried a church [21:04] that did the bait and switch that you [21:06] were talking about where of course [21:08] everybody's welcome, but uh we do want [21:11] you to change, right? We do want you to, [21:14] as you said, repent of your sinful [21:16] nature. Well, that's not actually [21:18] welcoming people. That's not actually [21:20] affirming people. And so, I hear stories [21:24] all the time about people who say, "Oh, [21:28] well, I went to to this church and I [21:30] really thought it was it was going to be [21:32] a great place, but then when they found [21:33] out I was gay, I couldn't I couldn't [21:36] serve on their board or whatever the [21:38] case may be." I even had an intern once [21:41] who ended up interning in our [21:44] congregation because she was at a very [21:47] conservative seminary and she was going [21:50] through the process and she was black [21:53] and a lesbian and she was going through [21:56] the intern process and had this church [21:58] she really wanted to intern at and once [22:00] they found out she was gay they're like [22:02] oh well you can't intern here you know [22:04] and she was she was very shocked by that [22:06] and I'm like well you know uh This [22:09] churches will do a very good job of [22:12] making you feel welcome of say of like [22:17] hiding the language if you don't know [22:19] what to look for. And you know I think a [22:22] lot of folks don't know what to look [22:25] for. Like if you go on a statement of [22:27] belief page or something like that and [22:28] it says, "Well, we're a Bible believing [22:30] church or something." Like for a lot of [22:32] people they'll be like, "Oh, well that's [22:33] great. They believe the Bible." like, [22:35] "Well, no, that's that's not what that [22:37] means." [22:38] >> Red flag. If I see Bible believing [22:40] church, that's a red flag. I'm like, [22:41] "Nope, nope. I know what that means." [22:43] >> Right. Because because we because we've [22:45] had experience with those and we know [22:47] exactly what they mean [laughter] by [22:49] that. [22:50] >> Exactly. [22:51] >> And so, I think I think you're right [22:52] that that people might use a lot of the [22:55] same language, but but mean something [22:58] different. And you know, I think too in [23:01] like thinking about progressive [23:02] Christianity that really what I mean by [23:05] progressive Christianity, I think is [23:07] authentic Christianity. That like I [23:10] don't care how we define it, but it's [23:12] it's in authentically following the [23:14] teachings of Jesus. [23:16] >> And I think what that means is making [23:19] progress towards what Jesus called the [23:22] Basilea of God, the reign of God on [23:24] earth, right? vision that he had for the [23:26] future where peace was created through [23:28] the presence of justice. And so I think [23:30] what that means is we're progressing [23:33] toward or following a faith tradition [23:34] that calls us to progress more towards [23:37] that vision. And I think that that is [23:41] not the goal of a lot of churches. They [23:44] might have the goal of saving souls to [23:48] progress towards heaven or something [23:50] like that. The sweep by and buy [23:52] somewhere in the sky. Right. I would say [23:53] that that that is certainly not the goal [23:56] of progressive Christianity. You know, [23:57] people have different views about the [23:59] afterlife, for instance. But I would say [24:01] that that's not really ever a primary [24:04] goal of progressive Christianity. Well, [24:07] it makes sense because, you know, when I [24:10] when I realized that, oh, that like even [24:13] the Christian church historically has [24:15] not held univocal views on the [24:18] afterlife, you know, you have uh [24:19] universal reconciliation, eternal [24:21] conscious torment, you have [24:22] annihilationism. But, you know, I [24:24] realized like, wait, well then why was I [24:26] taught that I can definitely know beyond [24:28] a shadow of a doubt where I'm going to [24:30] go when I die and it's not going to be [24:31] burning in hell forever because that's [24:32] the only other option compared to being [24:34] in heaven. But even the church, you [24:37] know, universally speaking, hasn't [24:39] agreed on what that looks like or how [24:41] one gets there or the exact process, you [24:44] know, that that that that that needs to [24:47] happen. And that was kind of like it is [24:49] interesting because I I understand why a [24:51] lot of people who grew up like I did [24:53] realize that that that the version of [24:56] hell they were given probably isn't [24:58] reality. Um, and therefore, why the hell [25:01] be a Christian? Like, why? like why [25:03] would I want to do this stuff if if [25:04] hell's no longer the threat? Um why? And [25:08] I I if that's all you're taught, I get [25:10] that completely, right? But I think what [25:13] drew me to quote unquote progressive [25:15] Christianity is that I'm still compelled [25:17] by this Jesus that I do believe was God [25:20] in the flesh, right? Like like how do we [25:22] know what God is like? Look at the [25:24] teachings of Jesus as best as we [25:25] understand them in the four gospel [25:26] accounts. That's a glimpse of what God [25:28] is like. And I think that there's [25:30] something about this these two [25:32] narratives, meta narratives in scripture [25:34] of like chaos and order, right? Like we [25:36] have like this this world of chaos. God [25:38] created a world of order. Humans have [25:40] the ability every day to choose to [25:42] participate in cycles of chaos. Maybe we [25:44] call them the the demonic or cycles of [25:46] goodness, peace, justice, and order, you [25:48] know, of God. And I love that vision in [25:51] my head because it makes me think of, [25:53] okay, how do I if I give allegiance to [25:56] Jesus, I believe that following these [25:58] teachings in my life for the sake of my [26:00] neighbor will create order on earth, [26:03] peace on earth, goodness on earth, and [26:05] that is still a compelling narrative for [26:07] me even if hell isn't really the in the [26:09] equation. Does that make sense? [26:12] I think absolutely that you know I've [26:15] seen this meme maybe you've seen this [26:16] cartoon that says um you know if you [26:19] need the threat of hell to scare you [26:21] into being a good person then you're not [26:23] a good person you're a bad person on a [26:25] leash right and so I I think that [26:28] >> yeah that a a lot of times churches want [26:31] to use that as kind of the stick the [26:33] carrot and the stick of heaven and hell [26:35] and in my opinion that kind of stuff [26:38] completely misses the teachings of Jesus [26:41] because [26:42] right because that because that wasn't [26:44] actually the the core piece of his [26:47] teaching and as you know whenever Jesus [26:49] was talking about hell he was using the [26:51] word gehenna right he was talking about [26:52] a literal place outside the gates of of [26:56] Jerusalem so I think one of our problems [26:59] in the United States today is that [27:02] >> our biblical literacy is real low and I [27:07] mean we we take this these notions that [27:11] we are kind of spoonfed in these [27:13] churches and don't ever really examine [27:16] them or a lot of people don't really go [27:19] through and really I I mean I guess what [27:22] we would call today deconstruct uh but [27:25] then but then reconstruct something [27:26] meaningful in on the other side and you [27:29] know Marcus Borg talked about it uh 30 [27:32] years ago as pre-critical naive critical [27:36] thinking and post-critical naive right [27:38] that we accept the things pre-critical [27:40] naive that we are just given and then we [27:44] enter the stage of critical thinking. we [27:46] recognize that, hey, maybe the earth [27:50] couldn't actually have been formed in [27:52] seven days or maybe there couldn't have [27:53] actually been a flood, right? Because [27:55] that doesn't compute with what I just [27:56] learned in middle school science class [27:58] or whatever. And then and then he argues [28:01] for post-critical naive on the other [28:03] side, which is then recognizing that [28:06] stories don't have to be factual to be [28:09] true. Yes. And yes, and so and so I [28:12] think today we'd call that [28:12] deconstruction and reconstruction. And I [28:15] I I think that a lot of people uh aren't [28:18] really maybe given the opportunity to do [28:20] that or churches don't provide spaces [28:23] for to do that. And it ends up being a [28:25] lot of people doing things on on their [28:27] own. Uh trying to make sense of things [28:29] based on on what they can put together [28:31] and in a lot of spaces in in online [28:33] spaces that that you know they have [28:36] guides helping people helping them go [28:38] through. It's really funny you say that [28:41] because um I've been thinking a lot [28:43] about what you just said. The you kind [28:45] of go from uh growing up in this space [28:48] where if you don't take these parts of [28:50] the Bible incredibly literally and these [28:52] other parts you can excuse them away as [28:53] you know a hard issue. This is what um [28:56] Scott Coley calls motivated literalism. [28:58] And he makes the point that you know [28:59] fundamentalists will tell you that when [29:01] Jesus says it's harder for a rich man to [29:03] enter the kingdom than it is for a camel [29:05] to go through the eye of a needle. [29:06] That's just a hard issue. But Genesis 1 [29:08] is literal scientific fact of how the [29:10] earth was made, right? And like it's [29:11] motiv, you know, and look, I to a [29:13] degree, we all have those, we all do [29:14] that to a degree, but we're trying to do [29:16] it as healthy as healthy as possible. [29:18] However, when I lost all of that, I re I [29:22] went through like this crisis of, well, [29:24] if it's not true in the scientific [29:26] objective sense, there's no meaning or [29:29] there's no point to these stories [29:30] because it's all false. But I've kind of [29:33] come through that side and realized that [29:35] like you said, story doesn't need to be [29:36] factually true to have meaning. I mean, [29:38] we use stories, the Lord of the Rings [29:40] stories are not factually true and have [29:42] a ton of meaning. And I think you know [29:44] this more than most, the biblical [29:46] authors, especially of the gospel [29:48] accounts, are kind of merging a [29:49] combination of maybe history and [29:51] narrative to get their point across, [29:52] right? To to get to a deeper truth. So [29:55] it I think that's really helpful because [29:56] I think one of the things that I miss [29:59] the most about being a former [30:01] evangelical is the sense of being caught [30:03] up in something bigger than myself. the [30:05] sense of of belonging to a community [30:07] that is on a mission [30:09] >> to whatever you want to say usher God's [30:11] kingdom in that you know or whatever it [30:13] is and that I have a part to play in [30:15] that story right and I think that um I [30:18] have had a hard time finding [30:21] >> other storytellers as compelling as the [30:23] evangelical world to kind of suck me [30:26] into a grander narrative of yeah I don't [30:28] know if the if a physical resurrection [30:30] is true I mean data wise probably not [30:33] but I still believe it because it gives [30:34] me so much meaning in my life of hey I [30:37] hope for a world where death doesn't [30:38] have the finalist thing right but I had [30:40] to get through there through a lot of [30:42] anxiety and a lot of wrestling you know [30:44] I so I think the the the storytelling [30:46] part of our human experience is so [30:49] needed now more than ever because that's [30:51] what MAGA does right MAGA sells a story [30:54] these people are stealing your homeland [30:56] hey these people are destroying your [30:58] country you know that's a story that [31:00] people buy into and I think the way that [31:01] we combat that of course backs help but [31:04] when they're packaged in a story form, [31:06] they're even more compelling. [31:08] >> Yeah, absolutely. Because facts don't [31:10] change people's mind, right? Statistics [31:12] don't change people's mind. It's pulling [31:13] on the heart. It's it's telling the [31:15] stories. You know, [31:16] >> John Dominique Crossson said, "It's not [31:19] that the ancients told literal stories [31:22] and we're now smart enough to take them [31:23] metaphorically. It's that they told [31:25] metaphoric stories and that we're now [31:27] dumb enough to take them literally." [31:29] Right? So I I mean I think it's that [31:32] that that the purpose of the biblical [31:34] text was to do exactly that to tell [31:36] grand stories to help us understand the [31:39] mysteries of life that we all question. [31:42] And I think you're you're absolutely [31:44] right that one of the things about [31:46] pointing to the life and teachings of [31:47] Jesus is that Jesus modeled in a very [31:50] real concrete way how it is that you [31:52] stand up to an oppressive empire and how [31:54] it is that you name the unjust practices [31:58] of the principalities and the powers. [31:59] And that's both in terms of uh the [32:02] political figures that we have and [32:05] religious figures who are also doing [32:08] things that are uh incompatible with the [32:11] world that God wants that we read about [32:14] throughout the Bible, throughout the [32:15] prophets and the New Testament. And so I [32:17] think that that gives us actually a lot [32:21] of fodder that we can use to talk about. [32:25] Okay. Well, Jesus called out the the [32:28] focus on purity in his day, right? You [32:31] were talking about our kind of purity [32:33] culture that uh that fundamentalists [32:36] have really created in the United [32:38] States. Well, it's odd to me that in [32:41] order to justify that, they point to [32:43] Jesus when Jesus spent the majority of [32:46] his ministry confronting the purity [32:49] culture of his day, particularly when it [32:52] separated people, it divided people into [32:54] classes. And so, I think telling the [32:57] stories about how Jesus broke down [33:00] purity uh purity culture, I think, is a [33:04] way to combat that. I think that [33:05] whenever we're talking about [33:07] >> Donald Trump uh taking, you know, acting [33:10] as helping defi descend this nation into [33:13] fascism that we talk about how it is [33:16] that that people worshiped Rome and and [33:20] Caesar as God and about how Jesus said, [33:23] you know, uh you have to choose. Are you [33:26] going to follow uh Caesar? Are you going [33:29] to worship him? Are you going to [33:32] actively see the oppression of others or [33:35] are you going to worship God who calls [33:38] us to a just society? And as as you [33:41] know, Tim, the the Roman Empire uh [33:45] brought about [33:46] >> peace, right? The Pox Romana, [33:49] >> but it was only pox if you were Romana, [33:52] right? It it was only peaceful if you [33:53] were Roman because the the way they [33:55] brought about that peace is they [33:58] conquered people. It was peace through [34:00] conqu conquest and violence. And Jesus [34:03] talked about peace that was created not [34:06] through conquest and violence but [34:07] through the presence of justice. And I [34:09] think whenever we tell those stories, it [34:12] makes it pretty clear [34:14] like where we ought to be. That's I [34:17] think the whole thing about why the MAGA [34:19] versus Jesus thing has resonated with [34:21] people is because we get these talking [34:23] points that people say as if they are [34:26] biblical truth. [34:28] >> Totally. And and with a single verse, [34:32] you can show that actually, not only is [34:35] that not biblical truth, it's counter to [34:39] everything that Jesus taught in his [34:41] life. [34:42] >> 100%. That's why I often say if you [34:44] listen to Christian nationalists speak, [34:46] they rarely quote the words of Jesus [34:48] because you can't square that circle, [34:51] right? You can't say, "Uh, hey guys, as [34:54] Christ followers, we have to love our [34:55] enemy while you're advocating for an [34:57] empire that wants to crucify theirs, [34:58] right? It doesn't work that way. It's [35:00] impossible to make that work." So, they [35:02] appeal to arbitrary verses in the Hebrew [35:05] Bible, right? That, oh, we know what I [35:07] got a vision from God that that Trump is [35:09] a new Cyrus. Yes, he's a new Cyrus now. [35:11] And I mean, Matthew Taylor, who's a [35:13] great scholar on Christian nationalism, [35:14] in particular, the New Apostolic [35:16] Reformation, calls them prophetic memes, [35:18] right? It's like it's meme culture, but [35:20] they use like um biblical biblical um [35:23] imagery to spread this narrative. Oh, [35:25] that now trumps all of a sudden a new [35:27] Cyrus. And that's how you kind of get [35:28] around the actual red letters of what [35:31] Christ teaches us to do. Which again, [35:33] the more the farther I get away or I get [35:36] out of that basement of fundamentalism, [35:38] the more I'm like, okay, I I know how I [35:41] used to think. I can see how I used to [35:43] think. I don't know how I found it as [35:45] compelling as I found it for that long [35:47] because it just it it literally makes [35:48] you it makes you have to like either do [35:53] mental gymnastics or just straight up [35:54] ignore like what Christ and I would [35:57] argue Christian history you know a lot [36:01] of it anyway uh you know a lot of the [36:03] church fathers and stuff taught like you [36:04] know I mean even the idea sorry for the [36:07] rant here but even the idea of serving [36:10] in the military like kind of a newer [36:12] Christian justification You know, a lot [36:14] of early Christians, my understanding [36:15] were like, "No, no, Christians do not [36:17] participate in war. We are nonviolent. [36:19] We don't believe in violence." And [36:20] nowadays, it's like God and country, [36:22] baby. You know, I I I stand for the [36:24] flag. I kneel for the cross. It's like, [36:25] "What has happened? [laughter] What has [36:27] happened to our faith?" I mean, the [36:29] answer of that is Constant uh [36:30] Constantine's empire and, you know, [36:32] Christianity. Certainly, it's extreme, [36:34] but my gosh, when you're on when you're [36:36] on the other side of it, it's just so [36:38] clear what's going on. [36:40] >> Yeah, I I think you're right. And I [36:42] think even things like like say calling [36:44] someone like Trump the new Cyrus, right? [36:47] Like yeah, Cyrus in the Hebrew Bible is [36:50] portrayed as a liberator because he [36:52] brought the people back from exile, but [36:54] he was still a dictator who, [laughter] [36:58] you know, who controlled the people. And [36:59] so I think that this is also the kind of [37:02] the attempt of people to like put [37:05] blinders on whenever they're thinking [37:07] about how it is that uh they're going to [37:10] justify the the pieces of scripture that [37:13] that they that they use. I think though, [37:16] Tim, that one of the reasons that people [37:18] find this so compelling is that it's it [37:24] can be hard to sit in ambiguity, right? [37:27] Yes. it it's it's hard to sit in the [37:30] unknown. It's hard to admit that there [37:32] are things that we don't know about. [37:34] Like we took the afterlife as an [37:36] example, okay? Like, well, who who [37:39] knows? And then like in progressive [37:41] spaces, they're much much more willing, [37:43] I think, to say, well, you know, we [37:46] don't know about this or I don't believe [37:48] in this or whatever, or you can believe [37:50] whatever you want. And that can be hard [37:53] to live with whenever you're suffering [37:55] or or you want an answer for something. [37:58] I think that's one reason it's [37:59] compelling. I think it's also like [38:02] whenever we are in a situation like we [38:05] are right now where we have [38:08] a an increasingly totalitarian [38:11] government [laughter] that I think it is [38:14] tough to figure out how to respond to [38:16] that. And if you say want to look to [38:19] Romans and be like, well, you know, God [38:20] appoints our leaders and so ultimately [38:23] Jesus is coming on back anyway and this [38:25] is just helping Jesus come on back. That [38:27] that that can be comforting in a way [38:30] because instead of having to deal [38:33] wrestle with those questions, [38:35] >> uh we can we can take the the answers [38:39] that are prescribed for us. And so I get [38:43] the comfort in some of that. Um, it [38:46] doesn't appeal to me, but I get why it [38:49] is that it's it's comforting for people [38:51] and why it is that progressive religion [38:54] can also sometimes come up short for [38:57] people because it at some point we we [39:00] get to a point where we're not providing [39:02] any answers either. [39:03] >> Yeah. Well, actually, look, this is a [39:05] series we're doing about pastors leading [39:07] a, you know, lead leading the way who [39:08] are crushing it. So, I don't mean to [39:10] dump on progressive Christianity because [39:11] I'm quite progressive, but I I do I you [39:13] know, maybe this is a good time to to to [39:15] be able to express to a major figure of [39:18] the progressive Christian movement one [39:19] of my personal gripes as a former [39:21] evangelical. And I'm sure there's good [39:23] reason for it. [39:24] >> Tell me. Tell me. I'm asking you to hold [39:26] space for my gripe. Okay. Here's [39:28] [laughter] here's my gripe created. Yes. [39:30] >> Thank you. And I'm sure there's a reason [39:32] for it. I I'm going to be honest with [39:35] you, Caleb. I miss I miss modern [39:40] evangelical [39:41] worship services. I miss the haze. I [39:45] miss the lights. I miss the the emotive [39:48] music. I miss playing in a professional [39:50] space as a drummer. I miss the feeling [39:53] of it being casual and and relatable. I [39:57] miss a pastor who would tell a funny [39:58] story in the beginning and is super [40:00] charismatic. I do I do miss that. If if [40:03] I found a church that did all that and [40:05] was like, "We're fully queer inclusive. [40:07] There's a genocide in Palestine. Trump's [40:09] a dictator." You know, I'd be like, "I'm [40:12] in. I'm in. Take my tithe money. I [40:14] support this mission." So, help me [40:16] understand what is up with progressive [40:19] mainline churches not being like that. [40:22] I'm not I'm not saying liturgy or or uh [40:24] is bad of there's beauty in it for sure. [40:28] But my gosh, sometimes I go and I'm [40:29] like, I want to love this so bad. I do. [40:32] I support it. I just I I it doesn't do [40:34] it for me. The floor is yours. [40:37] >> Same Z's. So like, [laughter] [40:40] you know, because because it's like it's [40:43] like we we often think that uh in order [40:48] to to do all the things that we've been [40:51] talking about that everything has to be [40:52] super serious and that that also [40:55] everything has to be you can't have any [40:58] fun or that you you know you can't it it [41:02] can't be entertaining because then it's [41:04] not valid worship like then it's [41:05] entertainment or something. This is the [41:07] kind of stuff I've heard from mainline [41:09] churches for for years and years. And I [41:12] would say that I don't buy into that at [41:15] all. That one of the things that we try [41:17] to do at our church is to make people [41:21] want to come to church like uh like to [41:25] have a meaningful experience while [41:27] they're here and to not buy into some of [41:30] the some of the tropes about what it is [41:33] that worship has to be. And I think [41:36] that's um reverent and it's super [41:41] serious and it's we're going to do X Y [41:45] and Z. We're only going to hear hymns on [41:46] the organ or whatever it is. I don't [41:48] know. But but for me, like one of the [41:51] things that we've really worked on in my [41:52] own local congregation is to break all [41:56] of that down. And so one of our high [42:00] holy times of the year is our theology [42:02] of Broadway series where we do uh we do [42:06] like Broadway plays as a part of worship [42:09] that that's a part of just a part of [42:12] what we do [42:14] >> that I I think also we've brought in [42:17] people who I so I'm the only one on [42:20] staff who grew up in the mainline [42:22] Protestant world and so we've got folks [42:25] who grew up in the Nazarene tradition [42:27] who grew up Catholic, who grew up [42:29] Pentecostal, and bring all of those [42:32] other elements, [42:34] >> including [42:35] like engagement in terms of music and in [42:39] in terms of the way we approach the [42:42] worship service itself. So I would say [42:45] that I also really struggle with that [42:49] especially when I go and I guess preach [42:51] somewhere or I just go and visit [42:53] churches and I went on sbatical about [42:56] three years ago and I thought I'm going [42:59] to go and visit a bunch of churches and [43:01] I identified several churches that I [43:04] wanted to visit as a just a one of the [43:06] things I was doing on sobatical. One of [43:07] the things I really realized was that [43:10] it's like hard to sit through worship, [43:12] that it's uh that it's often not very [43:15] fun, that it's not very engaging, and [43:19] that uh that churches are struggling [43:23] because of that. Even churches that I [43:25] thought were doing well that when I went [43:27] and visited and actually sat there, I'm [43:29] like, these churches are struggling. [43:31] They're actually not doing all that [43:32] well. And I think it has to do with [43:34] >> some of those things. not not knowing [43:37] who they are really not knowing who it [43:40] is that is in the pews not knowing the [43:43] state of what churches are going through [43:46] the state of Christianity in the United [43:48] States [43:49] >> uh that's helpful I mean you know I I I [43:51] said that kind of injust but also [43:53] somewhat serious and look I'm not saying [43:54] there aren't good conversations that we [43:56] should have around the use of technology [43:59] and look uh professional audio equipment [44:01] is not cheap it's expensive it takes [44:04] professionals to make it sound right And [44:06] you know, I I can imagine churches [44:07] saying, "Well, is that money better well [44:08] spent into our community as opposed to [44:10] our light show?" That's I think that's [44:12] all fair. But I'll tell you a story that [44:14] really kind of I don't know, it just [44:16] kind of spoke to me. So, I'm not going [44:17] to say what church, but I was at a uh a [44:20] prominent church um in the evangelical [44:22] world um that is uh on the it's it's [44:26] massive. It's a huge church. And I went [44:28] to um something that they did like on [44:30] the off nights. And it was um designed [44:33] to help um uh parents of queer youth not [44:39] feel like they had to choose between [44:40] their child or their faith. It's [44:42] actually really beautiful. And they had [44:44] on the they I I was at a panel and they [44:47] had it was a a transgender man, a [44:50] married uh man who was married to his [44:52] husband. um uh I think a single um [44:56] lesbian and some someone else that were [44:58] on the panel to help parents navigate [45:00] this, right? And they open up with like [45:02] some pretty modern worship songs. So, [45:03] they you know, the band comes up and I'm [45:05] they're singing songs that I sing in my [45:07] church. And I had this moment where I [45:09] was like, "Oh my god, [45:11] >> if if I grew up in a tradition that [45:13] meant all the words of what I'm singing [45:16] like this, [45:17] >> I would have such a different view when [45:19] it comes to music and these songs and [45:22] the emotional aspect to it in church [45:24] because frankly it was beautiful [45:26] watching these people who are queer [45:28] worship in the body of Christ the songs [45:31] about God's unconditional love for all [45:32] of humanity, right? And that was a [45:34] moment where I was like, [45:35] >> there's something to that, at least for [45:37] me, about being able to reclaim. And the [45:39] interesting thing is [45:41] >> is that I noticed this pattern where [45:44] >> fundamentalist evangelical churches will [45:46] present as super modern and progressive, [45:48] right? You go to a church, it feels like [45:50] it's it's in the know, [45:51] >> but yet they're teaching fundamentalism. [45:54] On the other hand, often times [45:56] progressive mainline churches or just [45:58] progressive churches in general present [46:00] as archaic, ancient, boring, I don't [46:03] understand, but they're actually [46:05] preaching and like and doing things that [46:07] are in line with the teachings of Jesus. [46:09] And I just wonder if there's a world [46:10] where we can combine the best of both [46:12] worlds. You know, have our cake and eat [46:13] it too. [laughter] [46:15] >> Uh, that sounds right, Tim. I think [46:17] you're I think you're on to it. [46:20] Let's Let's do that. Let's do more of [46:22] that. more. That sounds that sounds [46:25] absolutely right. [46:26] >> You know, there's a lot of people [46:27] looking for belonging who want to stay [46:29] faithful to Jesus but need community [46:31] again. You know, and I I I think some of [46:33] it too, some of us are kind of scared [46:35] cuz we've gotten so burned by church or [46:36] we've we've had really, you know, [46:38] terrible pastors that were [46:39] unaccountable. And I'm I'm kind of [46:41] curious for you. You said that you're [46:42] disciples of Christ, right? Like how [46:44] does how does that kind of stuff work? [46:45] Obviously, no denomination is perfect. [46:47] No one is perfect. People are going to [46:48] make mistakes. I understand that [46:50] completely, right? But like when it [46:51] comes to like church structure and like [46:53] accountability and like that kind of [46:55] thing, what does it look like in your [46:56] space? I'm just so curious. [46:58] >> Yeah. And so I our congregation is a [47:01] part of the Christian Church Disciples [47:03] of Christ, the United Church of Christ, [47:04] and the Progressive Christian Alliance. [47:06] And so that's and we infrequently talk [47:11] about denominationalism because most [47:13] people don't care or know what that [47:14] means, right? [47:16] >> [laughter] [47:16] >> And but what it means I think in terms [47:19] of accountability is kind of a [47:21] covenantal relationship with the larger [47:25] body. And in these traditions they are [47:29] traditions that are not hierarchical [47:31] although we do have a hierarchy and it's [47:34] weird right to to have that space. So [47:37] like unlike say the episcopal church [47:40] which has a clear structure where there [47:43] is the presiding bishop and there are [47:45] bishops and then there are deans of [47:47] cathedrals and there and all of those [47:49] things that in these denominations there [47:52] is kind of an inverted power structure [47:55] where we have say a general minister and [47:57] president but that person just really [48:00] kind of represents the denomination and [48:03] they don't actually tell congregations [48:04] what to do and so the so the power [48:08] actually all lies at the congregational [48:10] level and the congregations can decide [48:13] for themselves and so it's actually kind [48:17] of beautiful whenever it works well [48:19] because we get together as a [48:22] denomination and we will do things like [48:25] say like say in I think in 2013 or [48:28] something the disciples [48:30] passed a resolution that uh we we would [48:34] be an open and affirming denomination [48:36] right and calling on all congregations [48:39] to do that. Um yet each of the [48:43] congregations has a responsibility [48:45] individually to go through and actually [48:47] do the work and make those things [48:49] happen. [48:50] >> Uh so so it is kind of a a covenant [48:53] where the the larger body tells us the [48:57] things that we should be considering and [48:59] the congregations then implement those. [49:02] And oftentimes it's congregations that [49:04] lead the way. For instance, this [49:05] congregation that I serve was one of the [49:08] congregations that brought the [49:09] resolution forward for the entire [49:11] denomination to become open and [49:13] affirming. [49:14] >> Right? [49:14] >> So, I I think that it's it's kind of an [49:18] interesting structure because it does [49:19] provide community and accountability and [49:21] a relationship to the broader church [49:24] while also allowing congregations [49:27] autonomy. Yeah. [49:28] >> And and sometimes that works and and [49:31] sometimes it it doesn't. I I think I've [49:34] learned coming out of fundamentalism [49:36] that that that there is no perfect human [49:38] system where no one ever gets hurt or [49:40] mistakes aren't made, right? We're not [49:42] looking for perfect structures. We're [49:43] looking for accountable ones, right? And [49:45] for people to be able to say that [49:46] they're sorry. That goes for me, that [49:47] goes for you. And I think that I've had [49:49] to learn that lesson over time. I think [49:51] when I first kind of came out of it, I [49:53] was so fiery like, hey, we need like, [49:54] you know, all these things and the [49:55] church is so corrupt. And by the way, I [49:57] stand by that when it comes to the SBC [49:58] and groups like that. They're they're [50:00] fundamentally, I think, um, un [50:02] unsalvageable. But, uh, joining a new [50:05] congregation does not mean all of a [50:07] sudden you're going to be able to walk [50:08] in and never be at risk of getting hurt [50:11] or someone saying the wrong thing at the [50:12] wrong time. That's just part of being a [50:14] human being, right? And so I think that [50:16] it's kind of a a both and where we have [50:18] to acknowledge that there's always risk [50:20] being in relationship with anyone [50:22] whether it's personal or communal but [50:24] also we can look for markers that tell [50:27] us that a church or church denomination [50:29] is aiming for being better and better to [50:32] create better and more inclusive spaces [50:34] for everyone. [snorts] [50:35] >> Yes. And I I think too like whenever [50:38] denominations are are trying that that [50:42] they can do significant things. For [50:44] instance like over the summer uh the [50:47] Christian church disciples Christ United [50:48] Church of Christ they were meeting at [50:50] the same time in different locations. [50:51] Why they weren't meeting together I have [50:53] no idea but we were meeting same time [50:55] different and so like the denominations [50:57] then uh also passed resolution on the [51:01] genocide in in Palestine. Right. And I [51:04] think I think when a larger church body [51:07] is able to do that and remind [51:09] congregations that they have an an [51:12] obligation to be to be calling out [51:16] things that are inherently wrong and to [51:20] be working uh together. I think that [51:22] that is significant. So I think that [51:25] things like say the World Council of [51:27] Churches doing the same thing like over [51:29] the summer the World Council of Churches [51:31] called what was happening in Gaza [51:33] genocide and apartheid. And that was [51:35] that was a significant move. And so I do [51:38] think that there is value whenever there [51:41] are those systems that that can uh that [51:45] can not only hold people accountable [51:47] because I mean certainly like clergy for [51:50] instance holding standing that can be [51:51] removed if there's some kind of [51:53] misconduct. sexual, financial [51:54] misconduct, whatever the case may be. I [51:56] think that that kind of accountability [51:58] is very important. But but also I think [52:00] whenever they hold us accountable in a [52:02] covenantal relationship in saying, "Hey, [52:06] uh if you're not talking about these [52:08] things, [52:09] >> well, you really ought to be if you're [52:11] if you're striving to follow the [52:12] teachings of Jesus Christ." And so so I [52:15] value that. [52:16] >> Yeah, for sure. Last question for you, [52:18] and I really appreciate you making time [52:19] and being on the podcast. It's so good [52:20] to talk to you. Finally, um, what do you [52:23] think is the antidote for our current [52:25] political state? Right. I mean, I more [52:27] on the personal end, I really track [52:29] Christian nationalism. I talk about it. [52:31] Uh, I've gone to Turning Point America [52:33] Fest. I've met Charlie Kirk before he [52:34] was killed. I mean, I I'm in the weeds [52:36] there and I grew up in a world that is [52:38] promoting it and I know the threat more [52:40] than most. um what from your vantage [52:44] point, you know, what is the antidote to [52:47] really being able to turn the tide [52:49] long-term for the sake of our neighbors [52:51] and for the sake of democracy? [52:54] Yeah, I mean I think there are a couple [52:55] of different points uh to start off with [52:57] that I think Christians have an [53:01] obligation to call out Christian [53:03] nationalism as heretical to to to do [53:07] solid work in saying hey this is [53:10] antithetical to the teachings of Jesus [53:12] Christ because Jesus was anti-mpire that [53:15] Jesus was anti- oppression that Jesus [53:18] was anti-abuse of power and that is [53:20] that's clearly documented and not only [53:22] is Jesus But scripture is anti- [53:25] athoritarianism. And so like last year [53:28] during Lent, I had a a lint a Linton [53:31] series. I think it was called Take Down [53:33] Fascism or No. Or it was take down [53:36] fascism for Lent or something. I don't [53:38] know. And I I went through and I I gave [53:41] six examples of places where there were [53:44] abuse of power in the Hebrew Bible and [53:46] the New Testament and how uh the [53:49] scripture took a stance on that. And so [53:51] I think that Christians being willing [53:54] and able to do that is important. And I [53:56] think finding ways to do that in [53:58] conservative spaces, in purple churches [54:01] where people are politically divided, I [54:03] it's it's courageous. It's risky. But I [54:06] think doing that is something that we [54:08] are all called to do. But then I think [54:10] as a nation beyond the the Christian [54:14] portion of that, I think it is our [54:17] politicians and the the people. [54:19] Democracy is supposed to be power of the [54:21] people. That that people calling out the [54:26] the places where our our constitutional [54:30] republic is is not being treated with [54:33] respect. Uh to to call to higher ideals, [54:37] to the common good, to remind people [54:40] that uh that we are really only better [54:43] off if we're all better off, you know, [54:45] and not just a few are are better off. [54:48] and and holding our legislators accounta [54:50] accountable as well that you know the [54:53] only way for them to ever stand up to [54:56] Donald Trump is to feel like they have [54:57] more to lose by losing an election and [55:00] so the electorate need to take some some [55:03] bold stances there to that need to lobby [55:07] need to write but but all of those [55:09] things are are have limited [55:11] effectiveness right I mean I think it's [55:12] also running for office I think it's off [55:14] it's trying to upset the the the norms [55:17] of of what's going on. Uh so and [55:20] certainly never conflating those two [55:22] together, Christianity and then uh the [55:25] the pursuit for a more perfect union [55:28] that that while while we may as [55:32] Christians want the pursuit of a more [55:34] perfect union, we should never be trying [55:36] to legislate theology. And I think [55:38] that's one of the things that has really [55:40] gotten us into trouble. So, I think [55:42] taking those two approaches are things [55:44] that would really help us move in a more [55:46] positive direction. And, you know, [55:48] impeaching Trump and actually removing [55:50] him from office would [55:51] >> I I couldn't agree with you more. I [55:53] mean, I think one of the biggest [55:54] mistakes we made as a country over the [55:55] past decade was not uh barring Trump [55:58] from running again after an [55:59] insurrection. I mean, this is like I [56:00] mean, you look at what they did in [56:01] Brazil, Boston, I think, is in prison [56:03] right now, you know, like that's that's [56:05] what you do. You know, you you don't [56:07] have the people run again. Anyway, it's [56:09] a whole different discussion, but I'm [56:10] with you on that. I agree, Caleb. I [56:12] really appreciate you making time. If [56:13] people want to follow you on socials, [56:15] where can they find you? [56:16] >> Yeah, thanks so much for having me, Tim. [56:18] It's been great to be with you. You can [56:19] follow me across social media at [56:21] Reverend Dr. Calebjines or at [56:24] calebjines.com. [56:26] >> Sweet. Thanks again. We'll do it again [56:27] soon. [56:32] [music] [56:34] Heat. [56:38] [music] [56:45] Heat. [music] [56:54] >> [music]