Why AI is Overrated - with Neil deGrasse Tyson 🔗 **Source:** [Why AI is Overrated - with Neil deGrasse Tyson](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYizgB2FcAQ) > [!note]+ Document Notes > tags: [artificial-intelligence, science-communication, technology-skepticism] > author: Hassan Minhaj > source: YouTube > reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYizgB2FcAQ > date created: 2025-01-15 10:30 > > # 🏷️ Title: Why AI is Overrated - with Neil deGrasse Tyson > <!-- deep-read:sections start --> ## 🧰 Action Inbox - [H1] Study exponential vs linear thinking patterns in technology adoption — 15:30 #cognition - [H2] Research historical job displacement during industrial transitions — 28:45 #economics - [H3] Explore academic research funding dependency on federal grants — 45:20 #policy ## 🧭 Table of Contents - [📝 Summary](#-summary) - [📖 Main Content](#-main-content) - [🗒️ Notes](#️-notes) - [📚 References](#-references) - [🗣️ Paraphrase](#️-paraphrase) - [📰 Newsletter](#-newsletter) - [✅ Action Items](#-action-items) - [🧪 Hypotheses](#-hypotheses) - [📊 Methodology](#-methodology) - [❓ Questions](#-questions) - [🔮 Future Research](#-future-research) - [💡 Implications](#-implications) - [🧠 Learning Styles Assessment](#-learning-styles-assessment) - [📊 Accessibility Assessment](#-accessibility-assessment) - [🌍 DEIB Assessment](#-deib-assessment) - [✅ Logical Validity](#-logical-validity) - [🛡️ DARVO Analysis](#-darvo-analysis) - [🎯 Conclusion](#-conclusion) ### 🔗 References - [Hassan Minhaj YouTube Channel](https://www.youtube.com/@hassanminhaj) - [Neil deGrasse Tyson Official Site](https://www.haydenplanetarium.org/tyson/) ## 📝 Summary - Neil deGrasse Tyson argues that AI concerns are overblown, comparing current fears to historical technology panics - He distinguishes between narrow AI (current) and AGI (theoretical general intelligence), expressing skepticism about AGI's necessity - The conversation covers exponential technological change, academic funding cuts under Trump, and the relationship between scientific discovery and engineering applications - Tyson emphasizes that humans can stay ahead of AI through continuous innovation in areas AI cannot access - Bottom line: AI will transform work like previous technologies, but scientific literacy and human creativity remain irreplaceable ## 📖 Main Content The interview begins with Minhaj testing his own scientific knowledge against Tyson's expertise, deliberately answering questions incorrectly to demonstrate how people typically interact with science. Tyson explains that most current AI concerns come from a vocal minority of tech leaders who receive disproportionate media attention, while the majority of technologists are less alarmed. Tyson argues that Artificial General Intelligence (AGI) - machines with human-like general intelligence - may not be desirable or practical. Instead, he advocates for task-specific AI that solves particular problems rather than replicating human cognition entirely. He draws parallels between current AI fears and historical technology transitions, noting that while jobs disappear, new industries emerge. The discussion explores how humans have lived through exponential technological change since the Industrial Revolution, with examples like the transition from horses to automobiles in just 10 years (1905-1915). Tyson suggests people underestimate exponential change because they only observe small segments of larger transformation curves. On academic funding cuts, Tyson expresses concern about the consequences of reducing scientific research, particularly noting that fundamental research often leads to unexpected practical applications decades later. He cites magnetic resonance research leading to MRI technology as an example of how "useless" academic research becomes essential. ## 🗒️ Notes #### ⏱️ [00:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYizgB2FcAQ?t=0) — [H1] Science communication challenge - Key idea: Minhaj tests Tyson by answering science questions incorrectly while Tyson must remain silent - Evidence: "All your answers are what an eighth grader would give who didn't do the homework" #### ⏱️ [03:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYizgB2FcAQ?t=225) — [H2] Fame realization checkpoints - Key idea: Tyson realized his fame when people argued about his statements online instead of asking him directly - Evidence: "I came upon some chat room on the internet...people were arguing with each other about what I said" #### ⏱️ [07:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYizgB2FcAQ?t=450) — [H1] Scientific duty to communicate - Key idea: Scientists comfortable with media have a responsibility to engage publicly - Evidence: "I would be irresponsible if I didn't feel the media inquiry" #### ⏱️ [12:15](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYizgB2FcAQ?t=735) — [H2] Brain susceptibility to misinterpretation - Key idea: Human minds easily misinterpret objective reality, making scientific literacy crucial - Evidence: "If something as simple as a line drawing can confound your understanding of what is real" #### ⏱️ [15:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYizgB2FcAQ?t=930) — [H1] AI vs AGI distinction - Key idea: Current AI is task-specific; AGI would have general human-like intelligence and self-motivation - Evidence: "AGI would look at your life and say, 'Oh, he probably wants this tomorrow. Let me figure out how much and why'" #### ⏱️ [18:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYizgB2FcAQ?t=1125) — [H2] Media bias in AI coverage - Key idea: Fearful tech leaders get more media attention than the majority who aren't concerned - Evidence: "Some leading tech people talk about it in that way...they're the ones that get all the clickbait" #### ⏱️ [22:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYizgB2FcAQ?t=1320) — [H1] Exponential change historical context - Key idea: Society has lived through exponential technological change since the Industrial Revolution - Evidence: "1905 New York City...50 horse-drawn carriages for every one automobile. 1915...50 automobiles and one horse-drawn carriage" #### ⏱️ [25:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYizgB2FcAQ?t=1530) — [H2] Task-specific AI preference - Key idea: Tyson prefers AI that solves specific problems rather than general intelligence - Evidence: "I want a computer to make my coffee...I don't want the computer to do everything" #### ⏱️ [28:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYizgB2FcAQ?t=1725) — [H3] Job displacement historical pattern - Key idea: Technology destroys old jobs but creates new industries and employment - Evidence: "When we went from horses to cars, whole industries went belly up, but other industries rose" #### ⏱️ [32:15](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYizgB2FcAQ?t=1935) — [H2] AI creativity limitations - Key idea: AI can only replicate what exists online, humans stay ahead through continuous innovation - Evidence: "AI can only know what already exists on the internet...you can stay ahead of AI by continually innovating" #### ⏱️ [35:20](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYizgB2FcAQ?t=2120) — [H1] Quantum computing applications - Key idea: Quantum computing enables previously impossible scientific simulations - Evidence: "Galaxy has 100 billion stars...they're all sort of in orbit around the center of the galaxy" #### ⏱️ [40:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYizgB2FcAQ?t=2430) — [H1] Academic funding concerns - Key idea: Trump administration cuts to science funding will have serious consequences - Evidence: "Decisions such as these have consequences...if people don't know the consequences, they then have to experience it" #### ⏱️ [45:20](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYizgB2FcAQ?t=2720) — [H2] Academic research value - Key idea: Fundamental research without obvious commercial applications often leads to breakthrough technologies - Evidence: "Magnetic resonance of nuclei...Won a Nobel Prize...What came out of that? The MRI" #### ⏱️ [50:15](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYizgB2FcAQ?t=3015) — [H1] Scientific frontier perspective - Key idea: Current scientific knowledge represents only 5% of universe understanding - Evidence: "Everything we know...all of our understanding...is 5% of what is driving the universe" #### ⏱️ [52:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYizgB2FcAQ?t=3165) — [H3] Robot design philosophy - Key idea: Robots don't need human form; cars are already robots when they're self-driving - Evidence: "Creating a robot is not a thing...A robot just has to be something that does the task better" ## 📚 References - [Letters from an Astrophysicist](https://www.amazon.com/Letters-Astrophysicist-Neil-deGrasse-Tyson/dp/0393357466) - [Vera Rubin Observatory](https://www.lsst.org/) - [Boston Dynamics](https://www.bostondynamics.com/) ## 🗣️ Paraphrase - AI fears are overblown because most come from attention-seeking tech leaders, not the broader scientific community - Humans have successfully adapted to exponential technological change for over a century through job transitions and new industry creation - Academic research funding cuts threaten long-term innovation since fundamental research often leads to unexpected practical breakthroughs decades later ## 📰 Newsletter 🚀 **This Week in Science Communication**: Neil deGrasse Tyson brings much-needed perspective to AI panic The internet's favorite astrophysicist sat down with Hassan Minhaj to tackle our collective AI anxiety. His key insight? We're living through normal exponential change, not an unprecedented crisis. From horses to cars in 10 years, from early computers to ubiquitous smartphones—humans adapt. **The WordPress Connection**: Like AI tools that help with content creation, WordPress continues evolving to serve creators better. The platform's 20+ year journey mirrors Tyson's message about technology adoption: steady improvement serving human needs, not replacing human creativity. **Practical Takeaway**: Focus on using AI tools to enhance your unique voice and ideas, not replace them. AI can help with research and drafts, but your perspective and innovation keep you irreplaceable. Resources: [Learn WordPress](https://learn.wordpress.org/), [Developer Docs](https://developer.wordpress.org/), [WP-CLI](https://wp-cli.org/) ## ✅ Action Items #### DevRel - Developer advocacy: Create content addressing AI tool integration fears, emphasizing human creativity enhancement - Education: Develop workshops on exponential thinking vs linear assumptions in technology adoption - Developer experience: Document AI-assisted development workflows that preserve developer agency - Developer marketing: Campaign messaging around "AI as assistant, not replacement" for technical creators - Community management: Facilitate discussions on responsible AI tool usage in development communities #### OSPO - Policy & Governance: Draft guidelines for AI tool usage in open source contributions - License Compliance: Review AI training data usage rights and attribution requirements - Security Management: Assess AI-generated code security vulnerabilities and scanning protocols - Software Inventory: Track AI dependencies and model provenance in software bills of materials - Developer Support: Training on AI-assisted development best practices and limitations - Community Engagement: Fund research on AI impact on open source sustainability - Strategic Alignment: Metrics for measuring AI tool impact on developer productivity vs quality #### Community - Maintainers: Governance templates for AI-generated contributions and attribution standards - Contributors: Onboarding materials addressing AI assistance disclosure and ethics - Sponsors: Impact reporting on AI tool costs vs productivity benefits for funded projects - Ecosystem: Cross-project coordination on AI usage standards and interoperability #### WordPress - Core: Performance monitoring of AI-generated code contributions and quality gates - Core AI: Guardrails for AI features that preserve user agency and creative control - Community: Meetup discussion guides on AI tools in WordPress development workflows - Training: Lesson plans on AI-assisted WordPress development and content creation - Documentation: Style guides for AI-assisted documentation that maintains human voice - Accessibility: Audit AI-generated content for accessibility compliance and inclusive language ## 🧪 Hypotheses - Scientific literacy correlates with reduced AI anxiety and more realistic technology adoption expectations - Task-specific AI tools will see higher adoption rates than general-purpose AGI systems among practical users - Academic research funding cuts will reduce long-term innovation capacity more than short-term budget savings justify - Exponential technology adoption follows predictable patterns that can inform policy and workforce development ### 📊 Methodology - Survey scientific literacy levels vs AI concern ratings across demographics - Historical analysis of job displacement/creation ratios during major technology transitions - Economic modeling of research funding ROI over 20-50 year timeframes ### ❓ Questions - How can science communicators better prepare public discourse for exponential technology adoption? - What specific guardrails would make AGI development more socially beneficial than purely market-driven? - How do we preserve the academic research pipeline during periods of political hostility to science funding? ### 🔮 Future Research - Longitudinal studies of AI adoption patterns across industries and demographics - Investigation of optimal human-AI collaboration models for creative and analytical work - Analysis of science communication effectiveness during technology transition periods ### 💡 Implications - Practice: Integrate AI tools as assistants while maintaining human creative control and critical thinking - Policy: Protect fundamental research funding despite unclear immediate commercial applications - Security: Address AI-generated content verification and attribution challenges - Education: Teach exponential thinking patterns and scientific literacy as civic skills - Funding: Balance AI development investment with human-centered design and social benefit considerations ### 🧠 Learning Styles Assessment Reading level estimate: 10th Grade (Flesch-Kincaid) #### 👀 Visual learners - Present: Video format with speaker reactions, text overlays for key statistics - Improve: Timeline graphics showing technology adoption curves, visual metaphors for exponential change #### 🔊 Aural learners - Present: Full audio interview format with natural conversation flow - Improve: Chapter markers, key quote audio clips for sharing #### 🗣️ Verbal learners - Present: Clear analogies (horses to cars, phone book to computers), technical terms defined in context - Improve: Glossary of AI terminology, more historical comparison examples #### 🧩 Kinesthetic learners - Present: Interactive quiz format at beginning, practical examples of AI tools - Improve: Hands-on AI tool demonstrations, step-by-step technology adoption exercises #### 🧠 Logical learners - Present: Statistical evidence (1905-1915 transportation shift, 5% universe understanding) - Improve: Decision trees for AI adoption, cause-effect diagrams for research funding #### 🧑‍🤝‍🧑 Social learners - Present: Interview format enables social learning through conversation - Improve: Discussion prompts for group viewing, collaborative fact-checking activities #### 🧘‍♀️ Solitary learners - Present: Comprehensive individual viewing experience with pause-and-reflect moments - Improve: Self-assessment questions about AI usage, personal reflection on technology adoption #### 🌿 Naturalistic learners - Present: Evolution and adaptation metaphors for technology integration - Improve: Ecosystem analogies for AI development, sustainability considerations for technology choices ### 📊 Accessibility Assessment #### Screen reader semantics - Present: Video has spoken dialogue, chapter structure in description - Improve: Detailed alt text for visual elements, structured heading hierarchy in transcript #### Keyboard navigation - Present: Standard YouTube player keyboard controls - Improve: Custom transcript with keyboard-navigable timestamp links #### Contrast and readability - Present: High contrast video production with clear speaker visibility - Improve: Transcript formatting with sufficient color contrast ratios #### Text resizing and reflow - Present: Responsive video player and description text - Improve: Transcript with flexible typography supporting 200% zoom #### Media and captions - Present: Auto-generated YouTube captions <!-- deep-read:sections end --> ## 📺 Video  --- # 📄 Full Transcript *Auto-generated from YouTube captions · timestamps roughly every 30 seconds · [watch on YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYizgB2FcAQ)* **[00:00]** Look, you've spent so much of your life explaining science to people. >> Yes. >> Basically being a human well, actually meme. >> Okay. >> Yeah, although I've learned to not use the word actually because that annoys people. >> Correct. >> out of my way to not use that word. >> I want to play a game with you that's going to involve you doing something you rarely get asked to do. >> Okay, what's that? >> Which is remain silent. >> Okay. >> [laughter] >> Okay. This is a series of science questions that you're going to ask me, okay? I haven't seen these questions. I am going **[00:30]** to do what 8 billion people on planet Earth generally do when they interact with science. I'm going to just go off the top of my dome and you cannot correct me. >> These are good questions. What causes high tide? [music] >> The tide is high and the tide is the ocean, which is somehow connected to the moon that also is connected to a woman's cycle. But in this case, the moon is **[01:02]** [music] making the ocean rise. >> I can't say anything about your answer. >> You [music] can't. I know I know this is like you being water boarded, but this isn't >> I'm going to explode. That's only question Okay. Why does the Earth not fall into the Sun? >> The Sun is huge and the Earth doesn't fall into the Sun because the gravitational pull is making it circle the block but not careening into the Sun. And I don't know **[01:33]** why it hasn't yet, but I'm glad it hasn't. But it's gravity and orbit is my answer. Sir. I you can't correct me. >> [music] >> Explain the thought experiment known as Schrödinger's cat. >> There was a German scientist named Schrödinger. Schrödinger. He had a cat and the cat the cat jumped off a bookshelf. Schrödinger noticed um the [music] speed that the cat jumped off and he came up with an equation, um, based on that, which became known as **[02:04]** Schrodinger's cat. Schrodinger's cat. Next question, please. >> What is entropy? >> Entr- [music] I should know this. This is in physics one in high school, 10th grade. Entropy is things happening. Things are happening and they will continue to happen. [music] Entropy. Objects in motion stay in motion. Entropy. Maybe. It could be. I only have so much time in the exam. Please, I have to finish the exam. >> Why do you not fall over while riding a bike? >> My mass has centrifugal force that keeps **[02:38]** me upright, but I do fall over if I didn't have good centrifugal force. Next question, please. >> What are the names of the base pairs that make up our DNA? >> I don't know. Next question. You look really constipated. Let's get [laughter] Let's get through this. >> Did humans walk on the moon? >> I remember in school I saw the astronaut put the American flag on the moon, but I've also seen some YouTube videos that have said **[03:10]** that that was photoshopped. Why are you doing that? It's So, the Neil Based on the data set that I have seen the answer is unconclusive. We don't know. >> [snorts] >> What? >> [laughter] >> Can I say something now? >> Yes. Yes. [laughter] Yes, go for it. >> All your answers are what an eighth **[03:41]** grader would give who didn't do the homework. They just take the words from the question and reassemble them and put them into some kind of answer that they they will get them credit. That would get D plus. C minus if it's a good day. >> I need without studying, I think that's pretty good. >> [laughter] >> So >> C minus like I did not study. >> [cough and clears throat] [music] [singing] **[04:15]** >> Ladies and gentlemen, Mr. Neil deGrasse Tyson. Thank you for joining us, man. >> I didn't know you have a little little cheering section out there. >> Yeah, we got a a live studio audience of about four people. >> [laughter] >> Neil deGrasse Tyson is the most famous scientist in the world. Is he the best scientist? I have no idea. I [music] got a C minus in chemistry. But he is the best science communicator. And in this moment, science communication [music] has become more important than science itself. **[04:45]** Sad. We are drowning in an infinite scroll of misinformation. The country's leading scientific institutions are getting nuked by teenagers named Big Balls. And RFK Jr. is trying to replace measles vaccines with measles. Low-key, we're doomed. So, in that context, Neil [music] deGrasse Tyson's role as a communicator isn't just helpful. It's essential. He's not just explaining [music] science. He is defending its place in our civic life. So, I sat down with Dr. Tyson to talk about the power of scientific literacy, **[05:17]** the president's attack on scientific institutions, [music] and the future of AI. Also, I may have briefly tried to convert him to Islam. You saying? Love to have him. >> You're You're probably one of the the goat science communicators of our time. >> Okay. >> Your IMDb is stacked. You have 232 IMDb credits, which >> I never I I hardly ever look at IMDb. That's interesting. Thank you. >> Yes. Now Now compare that to one of the great goat science communicators of my generation, Bill Nye the Science Guy, **[05:49]** who only has a paltry 169 interviews. You have, unironically, played yourself in dozens of television programs. When did you realize you were famous? >> Great question. There are a couple of checkpoints here. So, one of them was I when my email was still available >> Okay. >> to people. >> Yeah. >> Okay. In fact, I published a book called Letters from an Astrophysicist, which was my correspondence with the random **[06:20]** general public >> Got it. >> asking me stuff. >> said random is there's a deep disdain for that. >> So, I came upon some chat room on the internet >> Uh-huh. >> and people were arguing with each other about what I said and what I meant. >> Oh, wow. >> When they could have just emailed me. So, when I became the subject of other people's arguments and debates and conversations, I I realized, "Oh, okay, something else is going on." But, **[06:52]** the real threshold here >> Yes. >> is I made the cover of Highlights magazine. >> That's a big deal. >> THAT'S BIG. >> WOW. >> That's big. >> Yeah, no, Highlights Highlights and Sports Illustrated for Kids are two hot >> I made the cover. I said, "Okay. All right. I'm there." >> That's a big deal. >> I'm there, but I I had no no aspirations to any of this. >> Yeah, I mean, it must it must >> I'd be perfectly to send me back to the lab. I'll be fine. >> Well, as an astrophysicist, and now that you're a famous astrophysicist, it's kind of wild seeing that you stand in **[07:23]** front of more micros- microphones than you do telescopes. >> Yes, that is true. >> Do you wish you could go back to being in front of behind >> I I wanted to do both. >> Okay. >> See See, if I didn't do the microphone thing >> Yes. >> I would almost be irresponsible because I can do it. I maybe one out of six of my colleagues, right, is on the spectrum. You know, and they're perfectly happy in the lab, but not deeply interacting with the public. >> Right. >> Put a camera in front of them, are they even going to make eye contact with the **[07:54]** lens or anything? So so as best as I know of myself, I'm not on the spectrum. So if we're both in the lab and the camera comes, I would be irresponsible if I didn't feel the the media inquiry. >> Yeah. >> And I don't know that anyone gains if you put someone in front of the media that's not where they're comfortable. >> Yes. >> So I I see it as a duty. >> Now, being a public figure myself, fame is one of the quickest ways to lose a sense of objective reality. **[08:25]** How do you reckon with that as you interact with science? >> Cuz I'm foundationally a scientist. >> Mhm. >> With never a goal to have become famous. So the fame thing is not center to to my being. >> Yes. >> Being a scientist is center to my being. And being a scientist, you observe the world, you analyze the world, you take the laws of physics as the as we understand them in in in the physical **[08:56]** universe, and you use that to pass judgment on statements people makes, claims they make, uh assertions they hold for what they say or think is true. >> Mhm. >> It is remarkably potent to be scientifically literate in the world. It it it empowers you to know when someone else is full of [ __ ] Okay? >> Yeah. >> It's that simple. And so so no, it's there's I don't have a problem reestablishing some sense of objective **[09:26]** reality. >> That's great. Um can I add something to that? >> Yeah. Yeah, go. >> Go for it. >> This is a little weird fact. I might have said this once ever >> Okay. >> in front of a microphone. >> HMDK exclusive. Let's do it. >> Okay, there you go. That's a K on the right-hand side. >> That's a K right there, yeah, yeah. With the little >> That's a K. >> Looks like an I and a C, but I but if you yeah. >> All right. >> Yeah, we can we can get into typeface. Yeah, yeah, and [laughter] kerning. >> I'm a typeface guy. >> Typeface and kerning is my love language. >> Really? >> Yes. >> Oh my god. >> Okay, but that's for another time. >> Oh, okay. >> So, talk to me. You said you're going to say something that you you >> Did you know **[09:56]** >> What's up? >> that in Saturday Night Live and 7-Eleven >> It's the same typeface? >> No. >> Okay. >> [laughter] >> Uh uh >> family. >> Uh Saturday Night Live, the N in night is lowercase and all the other letters are uppercase. >> Oh, wow. >> And in 7-Eleven, the N is lowercase uh in 11 and all the other letters are uppercase. >> Oh, that's cool. >> It's a little weird. >> Yeah, yeah. >> They just slip that in you. >> You know the FedEx, you see the arrow in the logo as well. >> Everywhere. >> Yeah, yeah. It's in it's in the shadow. **[10:26]** >> Yeah, yeah. >> In the in the negative >> Not to one-up you, I just >> It's in the negative space. >> in the negative space. >> Yeah, no, I'm thinking about this. >> Um >> Oh, and where were we before I rudely interrupted >> You had you had you had something that you wanted to add. >> So, the human mind >> Yes. >> is highly susceptible to misinterpreting an objective truth that's right in front of you. >> Mhm. >> And we celebrate that actually with books like uh what do you call those? Optical illusion books. Nobody doesn't love a good optical illusion book. But it's weird **[10:57]** when But pause and think on this. >> Yeah. >> There's a page with two lines and I don't know is one line longer or shorter? I don't know. I can't because there's some little little fooling factor about the illustration. If something as simple as a line drawing can confound your understanding of what is real, >> Yeah. >> then I just want you to know that I cherish the ability of our brains to work at all **[11:27]** in the face of these possible delusions >> Sure. >> of reality. >> Or illusions. There's also yes. >> Yeah. >> So then what happens now? People say, "Oh, let me stir some chemicals into my brain and that'll be better." It's like whatever it is doing for you, >> Mhm. >> it is not bringing you closer to an objective reality. >> Oh, wow. >> And so >> about let me stir some chemicals? You're talking about microdosing, mushrooms. >> yeah. I I have never >> LSD, etc. >> done drugs ever in my life. **[11:58]** >> Okay. You Muslim? >> No. >> Okay. >> No, I can arrive at such conclusions without being a part of a huge system of >> It's cool. >> religious philosophy. >> We'd love to have you. >> [laughter] >> Nor am I Mormon. You could have asked that. >> Sure. >> Right. So, yeah, I don't I'm not into caffeine. None of this. >> Mhm. >> The these chemicals that you would stir into the brain. Now, maybe if you you could be more artistic. >> Right. >> I don't know. >> Yeah. >> But getting closer to how nature works, no. There's no evidence that that has **[12:29]** ever happened >> Yeah, that. >> with anybody. >> Let's talk about one one topic that is that people talk about on the internet a lot and it's a big part of public discourse, which is artificial intelligence. But now there's a new topic, which is AGI. >> Mhm. >> Uh >> Artificial general intelligence. >> Can you explain that to our audience real quick? Just as a general idea and then we can we can get into it deeper. >> Yeah, so AI in you have to contrast it to AI. So, AI are computers that do things better than you, faster than you, **[12:59]** >> Yes. >> cheaper than you. >> Yeah. >> Cheaper that is, you can replace people's employment >> Mhm. >> with machines that can do this. >> Essentially ChatGPT, Grok 3, hey, ingest this Microsoft Excel document. >> Yeah, ingest it and write something write a summary of it that a person might have taken half a day to do and it'll do it in in 2 minutes >> Yeah. >> or less. So, this is what anyone today is referring to as AI. By the way, AI has been around long before ChatGPT. Chat GPT put it on the radar of creative **[13:30]** people cuz all of a sudden now AI is doing creative things. >> Right. >> All right. It's writing your term paper. It's drawing and making an illustration. >> Yes. >> And so and the people who write headlines are the ones directly affected by that sort of thing. So AI had a resurgence of public awareness of its role in our society. >> it's always been there. Well, not always, decades. >> Yeah. >> Right? >> When when when computers beat us at chess, >> okay? I remembered how far away that **[14:01]** goal felt. >> Yeah. >> And then it was conquered. >> Yeah. >> It was like, "Wow, okay." Then they moved the goal post. Well, how about Jeopardy? Jeopardy requires cultural awareness. That's not just logical logical inference. It's think this through in a cultural culturally aware sensitive way. It wiped the floor with our best Jeopardy player ever. >> Well, what's funny is you talked about this on Colbert. Let's take a look. Here's what you This is what you said. AI beat us at chess. AI beat us in Jeopardy. No one freaked out and ran for the hills when that happened. It only made headlines when AI figured out how **[14:32]** to write your term paper. Then all the liberal arts people, they pooped their pants. >> That's Thank you. >> Okay. >> That. >> Okay. Now, [laughter] why are you not as worried about AGI's impact on humanity? And what would make you poop your pants? >> Okay, so AGI, it can learn anything >> Yes. >> at all on its own and be self-motivated doing so. So >> has its own curiosity. >> who would define that slightly differently on the edges, but foundationally it is general **[15:03]** intelligence as our human brain functions. You walk into a room, it's a new situation. You walk in a different room and you analyze it, you assess it, you decide how you can add to what is needed in that moment. So AGI is not a specific computer with a specific task. >> Got it. >> Okay? Uh so and you put that into a robot, then oh my gosh. Okay? Cuz chat GPT is not going to make your cup of coffee. >> Right. It's specifically task-oriented. **[15:35]** >> It's task-oriented. >> Write me an essay on Herman Melville's Moby Dick. >> Correct. Correct. >> In 10 paragraphs. >> Right. Right. So, AI would look at your life and say, "Oh, he probably wants this tomorrow. Let me figure out how much and why." And they'll do it. >> Okay. >> So, so it's it's really a whole person. >> So, some people find that concerning. You don't find it concerning. >> I don't think it's in the offing. >> What do What do you mean by in the offing? >> I don't I don't see why we would value it. It sounds uh, highly useful. >> Right. >> Okay? However, we're humans and we're in **[16:06]** charge. At least we still tell ourselves that. >> Okay. >> So, I have tasks in my life. I would love to have computers do it for me. >> Yeah. >> I don't want the computer to do everything. I want it to do that thing. So, I'm going to get a computer that do that thing. >> So, so why are the leading science and tech thought leaders talking about this in a very terrifying way? >> So, let me clarify that for you. >> Sure. >> Some leading tech people talk about it in that way. >> Okay. >> And they're the ones that get all the clickbait. What you don't see are the far outnumber **[16:40]** the number of tech people who do not feel that way. >> Okay. >> But no one goes to interview them. >> Got it. >> Because it's not it's not as fun. >> They don't have a blue check presence. >> [laughter] >> YEAH, THEY'RE PUBLISHING PDFS. YEAH. >> It's not as fun. >> Where's their YouTube channel? >> to any of the people in the big computer companies. >> Got it. >> They're all into it. Completely. It's It's transformative. Cuz you can ask, "What was the single most important thing in the 20th century that affected the 20th century?" Give me any answer. >> Uh, nuclear weapons. Yeah, the internet. **[17:11]** >> Okay. No. >> Okay. >> The computer. >> Okay. >> Duh. >> Yeah, sure. >> The computer. >> Okay, well, you asked me to do it quickly. I was [laughter] going to I was possibly get to that. My god. Nuclear weapons is big, too, man. >> [laughter] >> The computer. >> Completely transformed everything we do at all times. >> Yes. >> Okay. >> But it became so blended into our lives, we're not thinking of that of it as a singular thing. **[17:42]** Such is the future of AI. >> You you mean >> vision. Such as it it'll become so much a part of it. >> It already is. Um >> If you're driving an electric car, it's making decisions for you faster than you. >> Yes. >> Even if it's not an electric car. Or automatic braking if someone walks in front of the thing. You don't call that AI, but somebody something made that decision for you. >> Well, one of the things that people talk about and I was talking about with our producers is human beings have this blind spot. And the specific blind spot is our inability to see things **[18:13]** exponentially. >> That's correct. >> And and one of the things >> on that in one of my books. >> And and and one of the things that we don't talk about in AGI is the exponential the exponential step functions of how quickly it's getting good and getting better. Uh >> But let me just make it clear. >> Yeah. >> Since the Industrial Revolution, basically, >> Yeah. >> we've been [clears throat] living in an exponential world. >> Has it been? >> Yes. Yes. Oh my gosh. >> It's felt linear. Human beings have this blind spot. And the specific blind spot is our inability to see things **[18:45]** exponentially. >> That's correct. >> It's felt linear in in in my opinion. Or is that is that just a feeling? >> Beca- It feels linear because you're occupying tiny bits of a much larger scale of change, all right? So, look at 1905, New York City. Take a picture of Fifth Avenue. >> Mhm. >> There's 50 horse-drawn carriages for every one automobile. >> Yeah. >> 10 years later, 1915, the same photo. >> Yeah. >> It's 50 automobiles and one horse-drawn **[19:16]** carriage. You tell me that's not exponential in within 10 years. We go from horses, which we figuratively and literally built civilization on the back of and now you can't give away a horse. Whole industries supporting horses went away. Buggy whips, wheel changer, wooden wheel, all of that went away within 10 years. And so and we just There it is. We just accepted it. Oh, oh, what else happened? Oh, cinema comes in. Oh, now we can see like storytelling and we don't have to **[19:48]** go to the theater. Oh my god, that that happened within a couple of decades, okay? In the in the early part of the century. Um Oh, take a look at a map of all the planes that are airborne at any given moment. There's a million people airborne at any given moment of any given day. A million people. And I look back 100 years ago with the Wright brothers and all of this. Just four people are airborne at any given moment. Now we have millions. Come on now. So **[20:19]** >> So so So these exponential step functions that you've seen even in my 39 years on planet Earth, you're not concerned about them vis-a-vis AGI. >> It'll happen with AGI. >> And and you're saying it's okay. It's going to be okay. >> I don't think AGI is what we're going to go for. >> Got it. >> I think you want to do things that are useful and practical. And that's how we brought technology to our world. >> that mean useful and practical? Just what what do you mean? >> Like I said, I I I want a computer to make my coffee. >> Same. >> Okay? >> Same. And I have a question for you about that. >> I don't even like coffee, but that's the **[20:50]** one everyone cares about, right? Cuz there's a lot of mystique around how the coffee comes. >> Nobody I'm not even worried about coffee. I'm talking about will the machines help me live my life, fold laundry, do the dishes, uh clean make my bed, all the things that labor the labor that >> make your own damn bed. >> [laughter] >> Don't look at me like that. I'm just Don't be a lazy >> [laughter] >> Clean up after yourself. **[21:22]** >> I'm interviewing Neil deGrasse Tyson, not this hybrid between Jordan Peterson and my dad. What is this? >> Make your bed. Chapter one of my rules for chaos. >> one of the rules for life. >> So, wait, can I I'm going to ask you this. I I come at science from a very humanistic perspective. And And what what scares me me, and walk me through this. Scientific progress doesn't always equal human progress. I'll give you a prime example. Nuclear weapons was a was a prime example of that. Huge scientific breakthrough, not necessarily good for humanity. What happened? >> just just clarify. >> Yes. **[21:52]** >> You can credit it to science for nuclear power. >> Yes. >> They became weapons because countries can't get along. >> Correct. >> Okay. >> Yeah. >> So, I just want to clarify. Now, yes, countries paid scientists >> Yeah. >> the bombs. >> Yes. >> But, the scientific discovery equals mc squared from 1905 was a brilliant scientific discovery that gave us an understanding of the universe. So, I you should you should put a line in the sand between **[22:23]** >> What if the line is what the net what the intention was and then the net and the >> Okay, fine, fine. It's how It's how the sword gets used. >> precisely, precisely. Do you believe that AGI could be a net positive for humanity? >> Okay. >> Yes. >> So, let's extrapolate this further. >> Okay, so now the the the the bad actors >> Yeah. >> Okay, who would get access to AGI, where AGI is of course has a low barrier of entry lower than building airborne nuclear weapons, right? So, the **[22:56]** the risk factors would be higher. Yes. So, I don't have problems putting guardrails on things and and checkpoints. I I had a brief conversation with with uh Ray Bradbury. He told me of a time when a woman came up to him and said, he's a science fiction author. And she asked, "Why do you write these stories of such apocalyptic futures?" >> Yeah. >> "Is this where you think civilization is headed?" And he replied, "No. **[23:26]** I write those stories so you'd know to avoid." >> Ah, as as a warning guardrail. >> Right. So, we see Terminator wreaking havoc, you know, in the cities from the film, and maybe that'll tell us maybe let's not put it in a machine. >> I hope so. You know, but there's always that that dare I say that late-stage capitalist interest that the biggest companies have. I'll give you an example. If you remember the Great Recession that we had, unemployment hit 10%, and it was extremely painful. **[23:56]** >> 2008? >> Yeah. >> Yeah, okay. All right. >> And I was thinking about this. I go, just a matter when you look at the interest rates or even the unemployment rates, the the the margin of what one or two percentage points does to a society >> wreaks havoc. >> Yes. >> What if that, you know, because of AGI and and the massing the mass like wipeout of white-collar jobs? What if that went to 15%? What if that went to 20%? What type of havoc would that ensue on our society and the world at large? **[24:27]** >> Yeah, I I'm going to I want to purposefully sound uh I want to sound naive here. >> Okay. >> Okay? Uh I want to invoke nostalgia for the future. Okay? >> Yeah. >> Here it is. When we went from horses to cars, whole industries went belly up. But other industries rose because of these new needs that we had. Automobiles. We need gas stations, **[24:59]** auto repair, or factories that build cars, okay? It's not the same job that you had with a buggy whip, but it's another job being put back into society. I collected phone books. People don't even remember phone books. >> Sure. It was like when you printed out the internet. >> printed phone numbers, okay? And living in New York City, we took perverse pride in the fact that we had the fattest phone book in the world for Manhattan. And I remember it as a kid, cuz I was a geek **[25:29]** kid, looking at the pages given to computers. Okay? This goes back to the early 70s. Couple of pages in the yellow pages. Couple of a computer repair, computer this, and then by the late 70s, it was more. By the 1980s, after the PC came out, whole [snorts] chunk of the yellow pages were given to advertising computers. >> Yeah. >> That these are entire industries. >> Got it. >> Competing brands. So, to say AI is going to take our jobs, the **[26:01]** white-collar jobs, therefore no one will have any work left to do, >> Yes. >> be creative and find something that AI can't do, and create a whole industry out of that. >> Oh god, there's going to be more podcasting? >> I'm just saying. >> Neil, [laughter] that's a net negative for society. >> you heard AI do a podcast? You haven't heard it yet? No. Oh my gosh. Producers, you got to get get them get them >> Don't make me do it. >> Here's what they do. >> That's going to be worse >> Here's what they do. They take a scientific paper, AI ingests it, >> Yes. >> and then it gets discussed in a podcast **[26:33]** with a host and a co-host, and they've got all the all the >> Oh, got you. >> mannerisms, the mumbles, and the meandering of podcasting. Exactly. >> Let me let me ask you this. So, you you feel the feeling I'm getting from you, and this is again just what I'm sensing, is you are a a optimist and a optimist. Is that is that safe to say? >> I would say I'm a I'm a optimist realist. Is there one word for that? Uh >> I I You have You have optimism and **[27:04]** pragmatism. >> Pragmatist, thank you. That's Yes. So, I I see the bright side of things >> Okay. >> but with a reality check. >> Here's something that I see a bright side to and I'd love your your insight on is you always hear >> Oh, by the way, quick thing. >> ahead. >> Not that you asked. >> Yeah, sure. >> But I just want to settle once and for all >> Okay. >> whether a glass is half empty or half full. May I? >> And what's yours, yeah? >> Yeah. >> What's your analysis, yeah? >> Okay. So, if you are adding water to the glass >> Uh-huh. >> and it gets halfway >> Yeah. >> it's half full. If you were drinking from the glass **[27:35]** and it's halfway, then it's half empty. >> Okay. So, it's it's based on actively what happened the moment before. >> of change of what's in the glass. >> Oh. >> Half full, half empty. That makes to me complete sense. If you come upon a glass >> Yeah. Yes. >> Yeah. >> If you've come up If you Yeah. >> Okay. You walk up to a table. >> It's half empty if you walk up to a table and it's there's a >> It's evaporating. >> [laughter] >> Okay. >> That's a Neil deGrasse Tyson dad joke, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN. >> IT'S NOT A JOKE. IT'S A LITERAL TRUTH. **[28:06]** It evapo- If you left it there long enough, it'll just become less and less and less and then you'll have the mineral deposits at the bottom. >> Sure. >> Okay. >> Sure. >> Now, go on. >> Um you always hear uh in regards to AI and science AI will help cure diseases. AI >> help cure cancer. >> Yes. And it's already in the process of doing that. >> will cure Alzheimer's and dementia. How? >> know. But >> Specifically, how? >> No, no. I Let me I That not being my profession >> I'm I'm not attacking you as if you're the robot either. >> [laughter] >> Tell me, Chat >> NDT >> Well, let me just give a broader Sure. **[28:38]** statement here. There are certain uh frontiers >> Yes. >> in human physiology, the medical sciences that were beyond our reach because we didn't have either the computing power or the uh capacity for the analysis of possible outcomes either in the presence of a medication or in the presence of some other change you might impart within a human **[29:08]** physiology. And one of them is protein folding, for example. Uh proteins are these large molecules and their function relates to what shape they take >> Yeah. >> when they're doing their business. And so if you don't have an understanding of all the possible shapes you can take or what the outcome would be you're just throwing darts blind. Right? But when you have proper guidance with com- high per- performance computing with a dose of AI, oh my gosh, you can localize **[29:38]** that and figure out exactly what you need. Keep in mind, you're not When we were all in the caves, half of everyone born was dead before the age of 30. >> Jesus. >> Half. >> Yeah. >> Fast forward to 1840. >> I thought it was going to going to be like 10. >> Fast forward to 1840. >> Sure. >> That number went up to 35. Half of everyone born was dead by the time they were 35. So in the tens of thousands of years between living in caves **[30:09]** >> Yeah. >> and the middle of the 19th century, we got 5 years on that. Okay? Since then >> Yeah. >> with advances in medicine and By the way, everyone back then was eating organic. Just saying. And the water was clear, the air ran pure, the the game was free range. Didn't make a damn bit of difference. Science matters here. Okay? All right? You can run around eat all the organic you want. >> Okay. >> You'd be dead by the 30 unless some doctor came in and said we can we can **[30:40]** increase your life expectancy using science. >> You you you're directing this at me as if I'm RFK Jr. I'm not. [laughter] I'm not. I'm just telling you I'm not. >> Hold me back. >> [laughter] >> Wait. Wait. So, so uh I greatly look forward >> Great. >> to what advances those will bring and even though you have bad actors involved and that can be bad mean bad things. >> Yeah. >> Uh I'd like to think that the positives at all times will outweigh the negatives. And when you lose your job, **[31:12]** try to see it coming and then figure out what else you might be able to do >> Got it. >> that involves the uniquely creative thing that is humans. By the way, have you tried to say tell chat tell me tell me a joke in the style >> Oh, sucks. It [ __ ] sucks. >> IT'S IT'S BAD. >> IT'S GARBAGE. GARBAGE. >> me a joke in the style of Hasan Minhaj. Okay, have you have you done that? >> Whack. Garbage. Basura. Trash. >> It'll probably get better. >> And it wouldn't give me when I would say, "Hey, give me reps on this." the way I I went off the top of the dome here. And I I paid premium for got grok **[31:43]** 3. >> Okay, YOU YOU PAID YOU >> I'LL [ __ ] DO IT. I'LL I'LL DO DEEP FAKE. >> I'M STILL I'M STILL IN THE OKAY, so here's here's my point. >> be like, "Do you want to like a a demented [ __ ] fever dream photo?" >> Here's my >> [ __ ] Here's a photo. >> Here's my point. >> Yeah. >> Here's my point. >> Okay. Yeah. >> I hardly ever point. I'm pointing right now. So, you don't have to back up. >> I know. >> [laughter] >> AI >> Yes. >> can only know what already exists on the internet. >> Yeah. Which is terrifying. **[32:13]** >> So, if it ingests everything you've done >> Yes. >> and tries to be you it can't be something about you that you invent for yourself tomorrow cuz that's not on the internet yet. >> Yeah. >> So, you can stay ahead of AI by continually innovating in ways that AI does not have access to. So, you can say paint me this scene in the style of Van Gogh and it'll do it. Then I say paint me this scene in the style of no one who has ever been born. **[32:44]** What What Sure. Where is it going to go? Where is it going to take you? >> Yeah. Um I want to I want to jump ahead a little bit that that is continuing in this kind of idea island that we're on. Let's talk about quantum computing. Okay, so there's a lot of hype around how much more powerful they are than standard supercomputers. >> hype. It's real, but yeah. >> But what kind of complex calculations could they be used for that we're not even thinking of right now? >> Yeah, so anytime So, just as a sample from my **[33:16]** field >> Yeah. >> in my lifetime computing power has grown exponentially and >> And especially probably for cosmology and astrophysics. >> that, right. So, if I want to simulate what the stars in a galaxy are doing, just think about this. Galaxy has a hundred billion stars in it. And they're all sort of in orbit around the center of the galaxy. How do I know what path they're going to take? Well, they're going to respond to the gravity of every other star. But every other star is also in motion. >> Yeah. >> So, every star is in motion at all times **[33:48]** and I want to calculate what the net force is on any one star and then move it in the direction that those forces indicate. >> Yeah. >> But I have to calculate that for a hundred billion stars at all times. Okay. >> So, in the old days we didn't have the computing power, so we would make a galaxy of a hundred stars. >> [laughter] >> Okay? And hope that it's somehow >> That was somehow reflective of a larger data set. >> right. >> Oh god. >> Okay, so >> This sounds like political polling. Oh my [laughter] god. We talked to five people in New **[34:19]** Hampshire. Here's how the elections going to break down. All right. >> So, at any given moment on the frontier of science if it's if it's an active science and a vibrant science, there's always something that is just beyond what the computers of the day can do. >> Yeah. >> And what we exploiting AI, we have a new telescope coming online called the Vera Rubin telescope that is not going to take photos of the night sky. It's going to take a movie of the night sky. That is photos type close enough in in **[34:51]** in interval that you stitch them all together, you get a movie. Why do you want a movie of the night sky? Cuz if I just go there and take pictures and take them home, there's a zillion stars in the picture. There's a couple I'm interested in, but otherwise, I don't know what's going on with the rest of what I'm not I don't care about. What this telescope will do, it'll find anything that goes bump in the night. Anything that's moving. Anything that gets brighter and then dimmer again. It's going to find the dynamic phenomena in the universe and it's going to find asteroids that could be headed our way **[35:22]** because from one image to the next, the asteroid moves. So, this telescope is primarily a data project. >> Wow. >> There's no way we could have done that ourselves. >> going to be huge for astrology. >> [laughter] >> I mean, it's going to be pumping out >> cared about data, but they don't. >> No, it's going to be pumping out millions of horoscopes a second. So many Britneys will be given the signs they need. >> Uh in fact, uh Mercury just went into retrograde. >> Oh, it did. >> And and you know, it does that several times a year. >> Mhm. **[35:52]** >> Just often enough to blame the universe on your bad decisions rather than yourself. I'm just throwing that out. >> Damn. Let's talk about Donald Trump's assault on academia. Right now, there's a proposal to cut the funding for medical research institutions. John Hopkins lost about $800 million in grants due to USAID cuts. They cut $400 million earmarked for Columbia. DHS deported a Lebanese assistant professor at Brown University even though she had a valid H-1B visa. Places are being investigated for their DEI policies. It is an all-out **[36:23]** assault. Everyone that I have spoken to before this interview involved in academia is genuinely freaked out. What have you been thinking about as all of this has been going down? Because you work in in in both academia and media and you're a public you know, facing intellectual. >> Yeah. Yeah. So, what I wonder >> Yeah. >> is if everyone who voted for Donald Trump imagined this is how it would play out. **[36:53]** >> Right. >> And maybe people don't know or care much about academia, but there are other programs that are hit. Uh Medicare uh or Medicaid with with one or both. Yes. Uh uh social security. Uh these are these are sort of sort of cherished elements of our modern society >> Yeah. >> that maintain our health, our well-being, our security. And so, I I wonder how many of them saw this coming. **[37:24]** >> Well, I'm look >> And wait wait wait wait that's my first point. >> Yeah. >> And if they all saw it coming then okay. This is a democracy. >> Mhm. >> And it's government by the people for the people. >> Right. >> And as they say, you make the bed now you sleep in the bed, right? >> Sure. >> So, people will see the consequences of this and I wonder if when it all plays out what it's actually the country they wanted. And as pendulum balls swing **[37:56]** >> Yeah. >> uh Yeah, there's a lot getting broken now that took many many decades to >> build. >> Yeah. >> And when I I tweeted a few weeks ago when that asteroid was a one in 50 chance it might hit Earth. >> Yeah. >> And as I said, there's an asteroid headed towards Earth with a one in 50 chance of striking. Sure. All right? Then I said uh Seems like is the wrong time to reduce science funding. That's all I did. **[38:26]** >> Right. And and and what happened when you tweeted this out? >> no, then there was the, you know, there's the normal cesspool >> Yeah. >> of response. But I guess but my only point is decisions such as these have consequences. And if people don't know the consequences, they then have to experience it. If you're not going to vaccine against measles, people will get measles, children will die. You have to see those consequences. And it's unfortunate when it affects our health as opposed to just something else that wouldn't matter to most people. But your health and it's avoidable and it could have **[38:56]** been avoided. Uh science and vaccines more broadly >> Yeah. >> are the victims of their own success. Right? It's like saying I if I say to you Why if I if I see you're using a a dandruff shampoo. >> Yes. >> I say, "Why are you using a dandruff shampoo? You don't have dandruff." >> Well, sometimes I wear darker jackets and it gets flaky here. So, I need to handle [laughter] that. >> No, that's You missed the point in what I'm saying. >> Okay, what's the point? >> When you say, "Why are you using a dandruff shampoo? You don't have dandruff." That's the whole point of the **[39:27]** [ __ ] >> point. Oh, got it. Okay, I got you. Sorry. >> Why are you getting vaccinated when there are no communicable diseases out there? >> Right. >> That's why there's no communicable diseases. Okay? >> Okay. >> All right. Um I have people say, I don't you know, why do I need space? I don't need space. I have Direct TV and you you know, images of hurricanes come. I don't Why do I need space for? >> Yeah. >> Right? It's with us. It is in us. >> Uh >> It is all around us. >> What do you say to play devil's advocate when people look at academia, they go, "There's so much bureaucratic bloat. Uh **[39:59]** tenure professors never get questioned. There's all There's a litany of things that have made this that is that have jammed up and clogged the systems of progress in academia. And we don't need any more gender studies majors. We need a whole lot more astrophysics majors. Uh and and and and they go, "You know what? Maybe it's good that they tighten the belt and they cut this DEI bullshit." Do you think that's an unfair way to look at this? >> I It's just odd. >> Okay. >> That **[40:30]** uh it's just odd. There's all this talk about DEI is bad. >> Yes. >> And there's the assumption that if you see someone who's not white male, they can't possibly as be as qualified as the white male who's not in that position. Right? It's just odd that there'd be a four-star general fired from his position who's black and replaced with someone **[41:00]** who's objectively less qualified with a white male. That's kind of weird. I I How is that some comeback [snorts] on DEI? >> Right. >> If if you're going to do a comeback, get someone who's a white male who's a five-star general. >> [laughter] >> Give me Which there aren't any. They're only in major warfare is there ever a five-star general. But that would be a That that If that's how But that's not what I see happening. And so I'm I'm **[41:31]** just >> I I wonder just how it's going to Why is everyone okay with that? That you replace some woman or a black male or female female with someone who's objectively less qualified. I don't I don't know how that's going to play out or why it isn't being analyzed in that way. >> Um >> Okay. So getting back to your point just about academia. >> Yeah, is there anything that you would like to see that that needs to change? >> think people fully understand the conduit between research and academia **[42:05]** and the rest of our lives. It's not just something behind a closed door in an ivory tower. Yeah. There are people doing research on subjects, topics that do not have immediate obvious financial benefits. But they're being done because the person is an expert in that subject. >> Right. >> Cares about it in a way no one else is going to care about it. >> Right. >> Maybe later on you can find well, almost **[42:35]** certainly later on you can find a a commercial application of it. But if you look at the sources of innovation in the country it is not in the R&D departments of Yes, there's some in the R&D departments of big business. But there's a limit to what they're going to have them do cuz not everything they're going to do is going to make a buck. >> Right. >> Okay? I'm sorry. There's a limit to what they can have them do because everything they could do would not necessarily translate **[43:06]** >> Sure. >> into the the the return on investment. So, in academia there's no such limits. So, we can do research on a subject that you would not otherwise care about. >> Right. Just because there's not a P&L sheet on it or there is not a financial return on it does not mean that there's not value for it in and of itself. >> You know what came out of academia? My physics professor in college who was an expert on nuclei in space and out of this effort he discovered a new physical phenomenon **[43:38]** called magnetic resonance of nuclei. Won a Nobel Prize for it. >> Yeah. >> It's a new physics phenomenon. Now, why do you care? It's just physics and you don't you can't even see molecules, much less care about anybody thinking about what the nucleus of it is doing. Oh my gosh. What came out of that? The MRI. The magnetic resonance imager is based on a principle of physics discovered by a a who himself had no direct interest in **[44:09]** medicine, >> but was foundational to it. >> Got it. And so there are inadvertent positive consequences for humanity by researching things for the pursuit of researching themselves in and of itself. >> Correct. And that happens in academia. >> Got it. There's two great chunks I want to get into. >> Go. >> I want to talk about the golden age of engineering. I was talking to my producer Prashant about this and and he said, you know, in our humble opinion, we are living in arguably the golden age of engineering breakthroughs. When you look at robotics, batteries, self-driving cars, virtual reality, **[44:40]** etc., it's incredible. But I don't know if the same thing can be said about scientific breakthroughs. The 20th century was the era where we saw these massive breakthrough after breakthrough that you had talked about. Now that all of that fruit has been picked, it feels like many of our scientific breakthroughs are limited by the precision of the instruments that we are using. Uh and the precision of our instrumentation. What I mean by that is that before you needed a microscope to discover germs, and now we need a large hadron collider **[45:10]** to prove the Higgs boson. So it ultimately comes back to engineering breakthroughs. Do you think this is a fair way to look at the state of science and engineering at the moment? Essentially that discoveries are limited by the instruments that we have. >> By the way, we've been like I said, when you're on an exponential growth curve, >> Yeah. >> no matter where you place yourself on that curve, it looks like all the great inventions happened just recently. That's the nature of an exponential curve. So you show an exponential curve, we're here. Oh my gosh, look what **[45:41]** happened. If you rescale that and cut it here and scale it, that will be the same downward curve to the past. >> Oh, got it. >> 20 years ago, 50 years ago, as you see today. >> Got it. >> That's what they No, 50 years ago no one's saying, "Oh, we're living in such backwards times." Said no one ever in the history of in the >> So when you look at each subsection it always looks like the Y equals X squared >> Correct. >> curve. >> Correct. No matter which section segment you plot, it'll it'll look like most of the changes happen. >> that I know I still remember Y EQUALS >> VERY GOOD. BEAUTIFUL. Very good. Make up **[46:14]** for some of that stuff earlier in the conversation. >> Sure. Sure. >> So I this thing about science not being where engineering is >> Yeah. >> I someone wrote that 100 years ago. >> Mhm. >> Said, you know, we've figured out most things in science and now it's just the a few more decimal places in the measurements. And then we discovered relativity and quantum physics. >> Yeah. >> And physics was transformed. >> Right. >> What I can tell you is **[46:44]** we know enough about the universe to quantify our ignorance. And everything we know, the physics, the chemistry, the biology, all of that, all of our understanding of what's going on in the universe is 5% of what is driving the universe. The 95% has dark matter and dark energy. We can measure it. We don't know what it is or what's causing it. >> Okay, I'm I'm a religious person and that scares me. When you say that it just terrifies me. But I want to >> But what I'm What I'm say My point is My point is >> Yeah. >> that's a frontier. **[47:15]** >> Oh, to to research and stuff like that. >> we haven't discovered anything lately, we are we are on the doorstep of profound ignorance turning into possibly profound insight and wisdom on how the universe works. >> Um >> so so and that's all the sciences. And in biology that they're still trying to figure out how you went from inorganic molecule organic molecules to self-replicating life. That's still That's a frontier in biology. We're looking for life in the universe. Aliens. Oh my gosh. If we find **[47:47]** a biosphere on another planet that encodes identity that doesn't use DNA or if it does have DNA but no DNA in common with us. >> Yeah. >> That's transformative of biology. >> Okay. >> So, science is indeed seemingly an endless frontier. >> know what deeply depresses me though? And I love this I love the espresso you're hitting me with, this espresso positivity. But what what depresses me about what when science meets the capital markets is that as soon as the **[48:17]** scientific breakthroughs happen, they are taken advantage of or manipulated to not benefit the public at large. What I mean by that is this. Let's take robotics. For years I grew up, if you remember that stupid Honda robot that would like walk up the stairs and fall down the stairs. And I'm like, this [ __ ] piece of [ __ ] It's never going to be T-2000. It's never going to help me. And then we had these you see these Twitter videos. I don't know if you've seen these Boston Dynamics robots that look like a velociraptors meets T-2000 and they're karate chopping **[48:49]** and doing backflips. >> My favorite one of the two dogs that opened the door and they let each other through. >> Yeah. It's it's it's it's totally Jurassic Park. The raptors are in the kitchen type energy. But at no point have I seen Hey, those robots, why can't I get a Boston Dynamics robot butler? Why aren't they here to really have us humans enter the age of enlightenment? Every person I know that's in a relationship in their 20s, 30s, and 40s. This is women, families, children, couples. **[49:20]** There are arguments about who's going to clean the dishes, who's folding the laundry, how do we have labor support and help at home? >> Okay, that's why why do we have >> That's Rosie the maid in >> In the Jetsons? >> The Jetsons. >> But but we we don't have that. I have I have this stupid [ __ ] dog karate kicking. >> I'm going to tell you why we don't have it. >> Why? >> Because creating a robot is not a thing. That's Yes yes it's a thing. >> It is a thing. >> But >> Kim Kardashian did a whole commercial where she's like >> But You know what they didn't figure out in the Jetsons? >> What's that? >> Cuz he gets into his flying car cuz it's **[49:51]** the future and course, they have flying cars. >> Yes. >> He's still flying the car. They didn't figure out that maybe the car is the robot. >> Oh, you mean the way >> doesn't have to look like it doesn't have to have legs or arms or a head or eyes. A robot just has to be something that does the task better than anybody or any other thing. >> Right. >> So, you get into a self-driving car, the car is the robot. You don't get a butler that then drives your car. No one's thought that through. >> Well, this is the **[50:21]** >> But this is the long >> put a robot in your car to drive your combustion engine car. The car is the robot. >> Well, >> So, so, so, your coffee machine is the robot. All right, now we still have to figure out the dish thing, okay? >> Yeah, or the laundry thing. And I And [laughter] I'll make my own bed, I promise. >> But a machine did your laundry. You weren't at the creekside scrubbing with a thing. A machine did your laundry. >> Right, but I just need one that will that'll put it in the right No, put [laughter] it in the right thing. Put it in the right cupboard. **[50:51]** >> or whatever. >> way I don't get in an argument. Save my relationship. Actually help my life. >> used to take 5 hours now takes 3 minutes, and you're still complaining. >> God damn, he's calling people lazy. All right, here we go. Fun final questions. These are sort of rapid-fire. Okay, when you have time to wonder, what's a thought or idea you regularly find yourself coming back to because you find it so interesting? >> I Whenever I'm using my telescope at night, alone, and I look up, I want to be abducted by aliens. That's a fantasy. >> That's incredible. Like the **[51:22]** >> comes down and I just join them. >> Oh, like the movies. Okay, got you. >> yeah. >> That doesn't terrify you? >> Oh, no. >> Because in all those movies, you get >> When you're When you're a scientist, you cannot be terrified of the unknown. Because it It is the unknown that seduces you. >> I got it. Well, in all the movies I've seen, you just get molested up there. You've obviously spent a lot of time debunking astrology, but why do you think it's been coming back with the kids lately? >> I think when people By the way, young kids are not interested in astrology. It's only when their social lives get complicated, like middle school, and then high **[51:52]** school, >> high school, >> and then >> money and social lives, >> like dating, >> and so when they are not sure that they're entirely in control, you have to blame something else, and they do. And I I understand the urge, but I and it's can be entertaining, but to the and I it's a free country, so I'm not going to stop people from being entertained by thinking this way. >> Right. >> But if they start invoking astrology for decisions that impact their health, **[52:23]** their wealth, or their security, then those won't >> You would advise you strongly against that. >> end well. That's right. >> If you could snap your fingers and have everyone on planet Earth understand one scientific concept immediately, what would that concept be? >> That the universe is objectively knowable. >> Wow. >> Which which uh removes most opinions from the table top. >> you mine. You can't microwave aluminum. And I wish I would have learned that **[52:54]** a week ago. >> Okay. >> [laughter] >> Or most metals don't work well in a in a microwave oven. >> Yes. >> Yeah. >> You have done countless interviews and answered thousands of questions. >> Yeah. >> What is one question that you wish people asked you more? >> [snorts] >> I don't think that way. I'm a servant as an educator, yes, but more importantly, I'm a servant of people's curiosity. As such, I don't come in telling you what question you should ask me. I'm there to celebrate the questions you have. >> That's beautiful. **[53:24]** >> Life, the universe, >> Neil deGrasse Tyson, thank you so much for being of service. It is a joy >> You got it. >> to sit down and chat with you, and I can't wait to do your show at the Beacon Theater. >> I'm looking forward to that. Thank you. >> Yeah. >> Thank you. >> Yeah, look at that. One hour, baby. Make your bed. >> Yeah. >> Hey, it's me, Hassan. I am here to panhandle. Not for money, for subscribers. Apparently, 70% of you guys won't commit to me. You want to kick it and listen weekly, but you can't admit that we like each other. Just admit it, **[53:54]** we're vibing. Now, if you're serious about this relationship, hit the follow or subscribe button wherever you watch or listen. And if you don't, well, okay. Message received. But just so you know, I will be seeing other audiences.