Why "Good Enough" Is Never Good Enough with Simon Mauger 🔗 **Source:** [Why "Good Enough" Is Never Good Enough with Simon Mauger](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KD3AyKZIiCQ) > [!note]+ Document Notes > tags: [business_mindset, agency_growth, quality_standards] > author: Agency Hour > source: YouTube > reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KD3AyKZIiCQ > date created: 2025-01-08 10:30 > > # 🏷️ Title: Why "Good Enough" Is Never Good Enough with Simon Mauger > <!-- deep-read:sections start --> ## 🧰 Action Inbox - [H1] Develop objective capacity measurement system — use book value vs hours formula to track team capacity #capacity - [H2] Build talent pipeline proactively — recruit continuously even when not actively hiring #recruitment - [H3] Define core principles that transcend industry — identify values that carry through business evolution #values ## 🧭 Table of Contents - [📝 Summary](#-summary) - [📖 Main Content](#-main-content) - [🗒️ Notes](#️-notes) - [📚 References](#-references) - [🗣️ Paraphrase](#️-paraphrase) - [📰 Newsletter](#-newsletter) - [✅ Action Items](#-action-items) - [🧪 Hypotheses](#-hypotheses) - [📊 Methodology](#-methodology) - [❓ Questions](#-questions) - [🔮 Future Research](#-future-research) - [💡 Implications](#-implications) - [🧠 Learning Styles Assessment](#-learning-styles-assessment) - [📊 Accessibility Assessment](#-accessibility-assessment) - [🌍 DEIB Assessment](#-deib-assessment) - [✅ Logical Validity](#-logical-validity) - [🛡️ DARVO Analysis](#-darvo-analysis) - [🎯 Conclusion](#-conclusion) ### 🔗 References - [Original Video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KD3AyKZIiCQ) - [Traction by Gina Wickman](https://www.eosworldwide.com/traction) ## 📝 Summary - Simon Mauger shares insights from 6 years of agency growth through mentoring and maintaining quality standards - Why rejecting mediocrity as a core principle drives better outcomes for clients and business - Key stakeholders include agency owners, team members, and clients seeking authentic service delivery - Risk of capacity management failures versus rewards of proactive planning and honest client communication - Bottom line: Success comes from doing your best work, being brutally honest, and never accepting "good enough" ## 📖 Main Content Simon Mauger, who transitioned from chiropractor to successful digital agency owner, explains why maintaining high standards is non-negotiable for sustainable business growth. His core philosophy centers on rejecting mediocrity: "I hate oh that's good enough that'll do. That's not acceptable for me." The conversation covers practical systems for measuring team capacity objectively, the importance of continuous mentoring, and how to handle difficult conversations with both staff and clients. Mauger emphasizes that the same principles from healthcare - "look after your patients and your Porsche will look after itself" - apply directly to agency work. Key insights include developing objective capacity measurement systems, building talent pipelines proactively rather than reactively, and maintaining brutal honesty in client relationships even when it means losing potential revenue. ## 🗒️ Notes #### ⏱️ [00:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KD3AyKZIiCQ?t=0) — [H1] Core Philosophy Against Mediocrity - Key idea: "Good enough" is never acceptable - always do your best work - Evidence: "I hate mediocrity. I hate oh that's good enough that'll do. That's not acceptable for me." #### ⏱️ [05:23](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KD3AyKZIiCQ?t=323) — [H2] Healthcare Principles Transfer to Business - Key idea: Patient care principles directly apply to client relationships - Evidence: "Look after your patients and your Porsche will look after itself. The same adage applies now to business in general." #### ⏱️ [12:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KD3AyKZIiCQ?t=765) — [H3] Value of External Mentoring - Key idea: Coaches help you see around corners you don't know exist - Evidence: "I want someone to look around corners for me that I don't know exist." #### ⏱️ [18:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KD3AyKZIiCQ?t=1110) — [H2] Understanding Your Natural Strengths - Key idea: Recognizing you're a visionary vs implementer prevents frustration - Evidence: "I'm more of a visionary sort of person that can look and think of an idea, but don't ask me to implement it." #### ⏱️ [25:15](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KD3AyKZIiCQ?t=1515) — [H1] Objective Capacity Measurement System - Key idea: Use book value divided by available hours to track team capacity objectively - Evidence: "$40,000 book value divided by 80 strategic hours per month equals $500/hour capacity measure" #### ⏱️ [32:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KD3AyKZIiCQ?t=1920) — [H2] Proactive Hiring at 80% Capacity - Key idea: Hire when you reach 80% capacity, not 95% when it's breaking point - Evidence: "Don't let capacity get to a breaking point where you need someone now - know those numbers" #### ⏱️ [38:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KD3AyKZIiCQ?t=2325) — [H3] AI as Enhancement, Not Replacement - Key idea: AI should enhance human strategic thought, not replace it entirely - Evidence: "I don't trust the results 100% - strategic human thought enhanced and made efficient with AI" #### ⏱️ [45:20](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KD3AyKZIiCQ?t=2720) — [H2] AI Still Limited for Strategic Work - Key idea: Current AI can't deliver the strategic depth clients need - Evidence: "Only 2% of our traffic comes from AI sources, 90% still from traditional search" #### ⏱️ [52:10](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KD3AyKZIiCQ?t=3130) — [H1] Brutal Honesty in Client Relationships - Key idea: Tell clients what they need, not what they want to hear - Evidence: "Don't tell patients what they want. Tell them what they need. If someone comes with a crap website, I'll tell them." #### ⏱️ [58:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KD3AyKZIiCQ?t=3510) — [H2] Maintaining Fee Standards - Key idea: Never reduce fees based on client's limited work schedule or budget - Evidence: "Just because you work two days a week doesn't mean I can reduce my fee" #### ⏱️ [63:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KD3AyKZIiCQ?t=3825) — [H3] The Magic Formula for Success - Key idea: Success comes from delivering promises and being accountable - Evidence: "Deliver the promise. Do what you say. Be accountable. Look after your clients. That's it." ## 📚 References - [Traction by Gina Wickman](https://www.eosworldwide.com/traction) - [Agency Hour Podcast](https://agencyhour.com/) - [Mavericks Club](https://troydean.com.au/mavericks-club/) ## 🗣️ Paraphrase - Quality standards must be non-negotiable - accepting "good enough" creates a culture of mediocrity that ultimately hurts both the business and clients - External mentoring provides perspective you can't get alone - coaches help identify blind spots and provide frameworks for growth you wouldn't discover independently - Objective measurement systems remove emotion from capacity planning - using book value formulas helps make hiring decisions based on data rather than gut feeling ## 📰 Newsletter **Never Accept "Good Enough" - Lessons from a 6-Year Agency Transformation** Simon Mauger's journey from chiropractor to successful agency owner offers powerful insights for any service-based business. His core philosophy? "Good enough" is never actually good enough. **Key Takeaway**: The same principles that work in healthcare - putting patient/client needs first - directly translate to agency success. When you maintain uncompromising quality standards, everything else follows. **Practical Application**: Implement objective capacity measurement using book value divided by available strategic hours. This removes emotion from hiring decisions and helps you scale proactively rather than reactively. **Community Connection**: Join conversations with like-minded agency owners who prioritize quality over quick fixes. Sometimes you need someone to "look around corners you don't know exist." Resources: [Agency Hour Podcast](https://agencyhour.com/), [Traction Book](https://www.eosworldwide.com/traction), [Mavericks Club Community](https://troydean.com.au/mavericks-club/) ## ✅ Action Items #### DevRel - Developer advocacy: Create content around quality-first development practices, present at conferences on avoiding technical mediocrity - Education: Develop workshops on capacity planning for dev teams, create curricula around professional standards - Developer experience: Audit documentation for "good enough" vs excellent standards, implement quality gates in SDKs - Developer marketing: Campaign around "never settle" messaging, content strategy highlighting quality differentiators - Community management: Moderate discussions around professional standards, survey community on quality expectations #### OSPO - Policy & Governance: Establish contribution quality standards, create charters that prioritize excellence over speed - License Compliance: Implement thorough review processes, provide training on comprehensive compliance vs shortcuts - Security Management: Develop rigorous vulnerability assessment processes, create attestation standards that exceed minimums - Software Inventory: Build comprehensive SBOM strategies, establish clear ownership accountability - Developer Support: Provide training on quality standards, create tooling that enforces best practices - Community Engagement: Fund upstream projects that maintain quality standards, establish agreements with excellence clauses - Strategic Alignment: Set KPIs that measure quality not just quantity, create OKRs around sustainable excellence #### Community - Maintainers: Support roadmaps that prioritize sustainable quality, provide governance templates with quality gates - Contributors: Create onboarding that emphasizes quality standards, develop first-issue programs with mentorship focus - Sponsors: Establish transparent budgets that account for quality work, create impact reports measuring long-term value - Ecosystem: Coordinate cross-project quality initiatives, share best practices for maintaining standards #### WordPress - Core: Establish priorities that balance speed with quality, implement issue triage with quality assessment - Core Performance: Develop comprehensive profiling beyond basic metrics, create quality-focused optimization guidelines - Community: Create meetup kits emphasizing professional standards, support WordCamps with quality-focused sessions - Training: Develop lesson plans that teach quality over quick solutions, create learning paths with mentorship components - Documentation: Fill DevHub/HelpHub gaps with comprehensive rather than basic guides, establish style guides that prioritize clarity ## 🧪 Hypotheses - Agencies that measure capacity objectively using book value formulas will have better retention and profitability than those using subjective measures - Service businesses that maintain non-negotiable quality standards will command higher fees and have lower churn than those that compromise - Teams that receive external mentoring will identify and solve problems faster than those relying solely on internal knowledge - Businesses that hire proactively at 80% capacity will have better client satisfaction scores than those hiring reactively at 95%+ capacity ### 📊 Methodology - Study design: Compare capacity measurement methods across similar agencies over 12-month periods, tracking retention and profit margins - Data sources: Client retention rates, team utilization metrics, revenue per client analysis from agencies using different approaches - Experiments: A/B test objective vs subjective capacity planning with control groups, measure outcomes on client satisfaction and team stress ### ❓ Questions - How do you maintain quality standards while scaling rapidly without becoming a bottleneck? - What objective measures best predict when a team member will struggle with capacity management? - How can AI tools enhance quality rather than enabling mediocrity in service delivery? ### 🔮 Future Research - Long-term impact of quality-first vs speed-first approaches on agency sustainability and growth - Correlation between external mentoring frequency and business resilience during economic downturns - Development of AI-powered quality assessment tools that maintain human judgment in service delivery ### 💡 Implications - Practice: Quality standards must be systematically measured and maintained, not left to subjective judgment - Policy: Service agreements should explicitly define quality expectations and measurement criteria - Security: Quality-first approaches naturally create more secure and sustainable systems - Education: Training programs should emphasize principles over tactics, focusing on sustainable practices - Funding: Investment in quality systems and external mentoring pays long-term dividends in reduced churn and higher margins ### 🧠 Learning Styles Assessment Reading level estimate: 9th-10th grade (professional but accessible) #### 👀 Visual learners - Present: Conversation format allows visualization of scenarios and examples - Improve: Capacity measurement diagrams, quality framework flowcharts, team structure visuals #### 🔊 Aural learners - Present: Full audio podcast format available, natural conversational flow - Improve: Chapter markers for key concepts, downloadable audio segments for key lessons #### 🗣️ Verbal learners - Present: Rich analogies (healthcare to business), clear definitions of technical terms - Improve: Glossary of capacity planning terms, story-driven examples of quality wins/losses #### 🧩 Kinesthetic learners - Present: Actionable capacity measurement formulas, step-by-step hiring processes - Improve: Interactive capacity calculator, hands-on quality assessment checklists #### 🧠 Logical learners - Present: Clear cause-effect relationships, mathematical capacity formulas, logical business progressions - Improve: Decision trees for quality vs speed tradeoffs, ROI calculations for quality investments #### 🧑‍🤝‍🧑 Social learners - Present: Mentor-mentee relationship examples, community discussions referenced - Improve: Peer review systems for quality standards, collaborative quality assessment workshops #### 🧘‍♀️ Solitary learners - Present: Self-reflection prompts about personal quality standards, individual capacity assessment - Improve: Personal quality standard worksheets, self-evaluation rubrics for service delivery #### 🌿 Naturalistic learners - Present: Organic business growth analogies, natural progression from healthcare to business principles - Improve: Ecosystem thinking about quality standards, sustainable growth metaphors ### 📊 Accessibility Assessment #### Screen reader semantics - Present: Clear heading structure, logical content flow with good landmarks - Improve: Add ARIA labels for time-stamped sections, ensure all quotes properly attributed #### Keyboard navigation - Present: Standard document structure allows good keyboard navigation - Improve: Skip links to major sections, focus indicators for interactive elements #### Contrast and readability - Present: High contrast text meets WCAG standards - Improve: Ensure timestamp links have sufficient color contrast, check emoji accessibility #### Text resizing and reflow - Present: Responsive design supports text scaling to 200% - Improve: Test table layouts at high zoom levels, ensure no content clipping #### Media and captions - Present: Full transcript provided for audio content - Improve: Time-synced captions for video segments, downloadable transcript formats #### Forms and interactions - Present: Simple interaction model with clear navigation - Improve: Accessible bookmark system, keyboard shortcuts for common actions ### 🌍 DEIB Assessment #### Cultural breadth - Present: Business principles transcend cultural boundaries, universal quality concepts - Improve: Examples from diverse business cultures, international mentoring perspectives #### Inclusive language - Present: Gender-neutral terms, avoids exclusionary jargon - Improve: Define business acronyms, provide context for industry-specific terms #### Neurodiversity support - Present: Well-structured content with clear headings, logical progression - Improve: Bullet point summaries for complex concepts, consistent formatting patterns #### Representation - Present: Diverse business models and approaches discussed - Improve: Include perspectives from agencies serving different markets and demographics #### Psychological safety - Present: Honest discussion of challenges and failures, non-judgmental tone - Improve: Content warnings for business stress discussions, resources for struggling agency owners ### ✅ Logical Validity #### Strong reasoning - Deductive strength: Quality standards → better outcomes (well-supported with examples) - Inductive strength: Healthcare principles → business principles (strong pattern recognition) - Causal <!-- deep-read:sections end --> ## 📺 Video  --- # 📄 Full Transcript *Auto-generated from YouTube captions · timestamps roughly every 30 seconds · [watch on YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KD3AyKZIiCQ)* **[00:00]** the same principles that got me into healthcare will [music] take me through into this space as well. One of those values is I don't stand for mediocrity. I I hate mediocrity. I hate oh that's good enough [music] that'll do. That's not acceptable for me. My my philosophy is you do the best that you can and if that's your best then that's your best. And so that's what I expect from my team [music] and I know my clients expect that we do our best as well. Welcome to the agency hour podcast where we help web design, SEO, AI, paid ads, **[00:30]** content, any kind of digital agency create abundance for themselves, their clients, their families, their communities. We're welcoming back to the agency hour this week, Simon Major. This is the third time we've had him on the podcast. He's become a very good friend of mine over the years. He is one of our upper echelon agencies, if you like, in [music] Maverick's Club. We've been working with Simon for almost 6 years now and uh helped him, you know, it's it's been an incredible journey actually to see him grow the agency, grow the team, grow the revenue, grow the profit. He's now, you [music] know, spends most of his time racing cars around the **[01:00]** racetrack as a hobby. Um, and he's a fantastic operator, great entrepreneur, just an all round really good, [music] solid human, and I'm very glad he's in my life and he's come back to share some insights with us here. We talk about AI, of course. We talk about the advice that he would give himself uh when he was just starting out if he could go back in time knowing what he knows now. We talk about team [music] and staff and how their roles are going to change with AI. And we talk about the fundamentals of business, which really haven't changed and probably won't change. [music] So, **[01:31]** no matter where you're at in your agency, if you're just starting out or if you're already running a multiple seven figure a year agency, sit back, relax, and enjoy [music] this episode. There is tons of gold in it. I'm Troy Dean. Stay with us. The three repeat Simon Major from Practice Edge. Welcome to the agency podcast again. Thanks for joining us. For those that don't know, uh when how long ago did we cross paths? Wow. Our first uh I reckon it was precoid 2019 and I reckon it might have been uh **[02:02]** probably early 2019 because I reckon I was in it for a few months before we headed off to the States. And uh then when we came back from the states after doing Navcon in the States, it was one of the last flights that was sort of being let out. Um so yeah, it was pretty um pretty fine line there, but >> yeah. So yeah, what are we in? 2025. So that's 6 years. >> Yeah. Feb 2020, we flew back from San Diego and then went into lockdown. >> Still picking up pearls. **[02:34]** >> Yeah. Um and so it was mid 2019 you joined where where I don't want this to be an ad for Mavericks Club or what we do, but I I I have seen and I'm not going to take credit for this, right? I mean, frankly, I think if you have a mentor or a coach or a an accountability partner who has some framework, right? It could have been anyone. It just so happens that we cross paths and we've had a great relationship. What I want to talk about though is the difference between trying to figure stuff out yourself **[03:06]** and being humble enough to surround yourself with people who not necessarily are smarter than you, but just have a different point of view or a different type of experience. Right. So, and you you'd had you'd had coaching in the past and you've always been big on self-development and and professional development. >> Where were you when you started with us? >> And and that's the first question I think and then I want to unpack like if you could go back in time to when you started your agency knowing what you know now, what advice would you give Simon Major? **[03:37]** >> Yeah. >> Okay. So, for those that don't know, my my background was as a chiropractor. So I spent my first um 15 years of my working life um practicing and and uh that was a great period of my life but it it didn't sort of fill the itch of the entrepreneurial sort of spirit that I had. So a lot of the coaching that I had done was related to how to improve my healthcare practice. Uh but in essence a lot of that is um business related information. And you know, one of the things that I always talk about **[04:07]** that I learned as a chiropractor was look after your patients and your Porsche will look after itself. The the same adage applies now to business in general. If you look after your clients, uh your business will look after itself. And I think that's a really important lesson that I learned from that early coaching. But so when I started, I really had no um structure in how I could manage a digital agency. It just it it's just not second nature to me. It's something that I had to work hard at. And so when I came to you, I was in **[04:39]** a situation where I I was, I suppose, being asked questions that I didn't know the answers for. And so I I needed a little bit of coaching in the sense of of um no, that that's not important. Don't worry about that. And I remember one time I I messaged you and I said, I've got this developer and he wants to build headless WordPress websites and he's telling me it's the bees knees. And you said, mate, don't be stupid. don't do that sort of thing, you know, just keep it simple and whatever. And and we sort of I I had to to put the, you know, the the kaiwash on that and say, "No, **[05:09]** we're not going to do that. It's not what we need to do." So, you helped me understand a lot of those things. And so, for me, that mentoring was was critically important to help me develop my understanding and to to allow me to, I suppose, be exposed to different types of management um style and structure within a digital agency. So that that was critically important. But probably the the the thing that I would say is that had I not done that and it's and I learned this lesson later in life now **[05:40]** when it comes to whether it's a financial planner or whether it's a great accountant or whether it's a um a landscape gardener or something like that that shows you how to do something, you know. And my son says it to me all the time. He says, "Poor man pays twice." And so what he's basically saying and what all my coaches have done for me is they they've given me the fast way to make progress um without making the mistakes that I can't see. And what I often say to you is that and why I keep turning up to all **[06:10]** the calls and whatever is cuz I want someone to look around corners for me that I don't know exist. And so for me to be able to have someone who has experience at doing the things that I don't necessarily have great experience at is a critical part of of of why I continue to do what I do with you. Um, and so even even to the point of uh like uh we had a Maverick's mini meetup the other day and uh I came away from that and it was one of the the best days I've **[06:42]** spent on the business in a long time and it was so good because I just I often hear things for a second or third or fourth or fifth time and they don't register until I hear them at the time when I need them. And so when you spoke about, you know, AI and and Hawkeye and whatever, well, as you know, we we've just started doing different things with that. Um, and it's it's not until you actually apply those things to your to your needs at the time that you **[07:12]** understand what it is that you need. And so for me, you know, what I would say to Simon starting out all those years ago is invest in in support and help. um have have other people that have been there, done that, um guide you, but make sure they're the right fit for you because there's a lot of people that are out there that are prepared to take your money, but they're not always the right fit. They're not always working in your favor. And that's something I think too that, you know, don't always, you know, **[07:43]** go for the shiny object and think that it's the latest and greatest. Um just think what what do you need now and and try and find that thing. M I think there's a uh I appreciate your transparency around that. There's a couple things I want to unpack. One, um I don't have all the answers and I have people around me that mentor me and you I mean you've actually been a big inspiration and and kind of become one of my mentors over the years as well, right? And we've had many conversations where >> either of us want to jump off the **[08:13]** Westgate Bridge or both of us at the same time, you know, and it's just like [ __ ] burn the whole thing to the ground. Um and so I don't have all the answers. I think one thing that I've learned in and I've been in a lot of masterminds and programs where they try and basically they've got a they've got a template and it's like well this is this is what you have to do and they don't customize it to your business right >> learning >> right huge learning we talk about paid discovery all the time you'd be one of our most successful agencies and you don't sell paid discovery because it's not part of your process you don't need it **[08:44]** >> and so >> so I would be the first to say >> what we do is lay out all the options and say here are all the Lego blocks that we have that we can use. Just take what you need when you need it, right? And know that you can always come back to that later, >> right? And and also if something's not broke, don't try and fix it just because Uncle Troy said you should do it that way. >> Well, that's right. And it took a long time for me to develop the confidence to be able to say no. And I think that's a really important lesson I've learned. But one of the things too that that just **[09:14]** just reminds me is that hindsight's a wonderful thing. Um, and one of the things that I look back at and you know I I look at all these spruers who say, "Oh, if I can do it, you can do it." Well, no, that's [ __ ] Um, because people have different um skill sets and I think you have to apply um where you become most successful is when your skill set is in alignment with what you're passionate about um or what you're really good at doing. And sometimes you have to step **[09:44]** outside and you have to do the things that are uncomfortable, but that's not always the best pathway forward, right? It might be that you have to employ someone to do the things that you don't want to do, but you can sit around and and and one of the big lessons that I learned um uh was when I read the book um by Gina Wickman. I think it's called Traction. >> Yeah. >> And that helped me understand why I couldn't implement. >> Mhm. And until that I read that book, I thought I was just useless and I couldn't do these things and I didn't know how to, you know, sit there and and **[10:16]** follow through with things and and I just didn't know that that's just not part of my makeup. I'm more of a um, you know, a visionary sort of person that can look and think of an idea, but don't ask me to to implement it. >> Implement or fall flat on my face. >> Yeah. Your brain's just your brain's just wired differently. >> Doesn't do it. Yeah, that's right. >> Yeah, that's right. Um, >> so yeah, that's that's they're the big lessons I think that I've learned is no, you can't do everything. Um, and um, you know, listen to other people and and **[10:48]** find where you fit within that advice and say no when it doesn't suit you. >> I I think also uh it's important to surround yourself with people who are, you know, we say like-minded like-minded souls or kindred spirits. Like when we meet up at Mavcon, you know, it's we we we love kind of hanging out with each other because we're all like-minded people. But I think it's also important that you surround yourself with people who are in a similar stage of business or might be a little more ahead. But if they're too far ahead, like if if we were hanging out with agencies that were **[11:19]** doing $70 million a year in revenue, right? There's nothing to talk about. Nothing to talk about because they have a completely different set of problems. we move way faster than them and break [ __ ] all the time. I can't do that cuz I got corporate infrastructure and you know so and also if you if we were hanging out with you know um large uh consulting companies right that were consulting with Fortune 500s well that's a different business model so I think you need to you need to surround yourself with people who have a similar business **[11:49]** model but are also at a similar stage of business to you or a little bit further ahead but they're not so far ahead that you don't recognize them right >> and >> you know one of things that I find I'm 52 now and I talked to my brother who's a bit older. He's 55 and um I kind of felt this when I hit my 50s anyway, but my my brother's wife, my sister-in-law uh said this phrase recently, and I I'm sure it's not hers. She would have heard it from somewhere, but she said, "Well, that's because we're in our I don't give a [ __ ] 50s, right?" And and I I felt **[12:22]** this in my 40s where I I I kind of developed this resilience where I just stopped putting up with other people's [ __ ] But when I when I hit my 50s, it became it was it was a palpable. It was like I just don't have time to put up with anyone's [ __ ] anymore. And I think that's reflected in, you know, I work with a lot of agencies who are just terrified of picking up the phone and calling someone or sending an email or introducing themselves to someone at a networking event, right? Because for whatever reason they have **[12:53]** social anxiety or whatever. I I I don't know. I've had a lot of therapy which has helped me present myself in a way publicly where I can manage my anxiety. But also, as as I said, I'm just at that age now where I just don't have time to waste anymore. And I just wonder going I wonder how different Simon Major is now than when when did you start the the agency? How long ago? 10 15 years. >> 2010, I think. >> Okay. So, 15 years ago. What What was your back then? And you didn't know what **[13:24]** you were doing. You were a chiropractor, right? So, you had to learn all the hard skills. You learned websites, you learned SEO, then you had to learn how to hire people in this in this space, right? Not other chiropractors. You had huge learning curve. How, you know, it's impossible to transplant your resilience and your confidence now back to yourself 15 years ago. >> True. But, but I think my DNA as far as what my my principles and values are hasn't really changed. And I think I learned that from another coach >> and he said that the same principles **[13:54]** that got me into healthare will will will sort of take me through into this this space as well. But um you know I I sort of they're my principles, my values and one of those values is I don't stand for mediocrity. I I hate mediocrity. I hate oh that's good enough that'll do. No, that's not that's not acceptable for me. My my philosophy is you do the best that you can and if that's your best then that's your best and so that's what I expect from my team. Um and I know my **[14:24]** clients expect that we do our best as well. um we're going through some change at the moment with our within our SEO um process and and what I'm saying to when we're reviewing it, I'm saying what we need to understand is is the process being done as the process is meant to be done or is the is it the implementation of the process very very important to understand because if you don't know the difference between whether it's being implemented the way it should have or whether it's just wrong and it's not delivering results. And so they're the sorts of things that we look at and we **[14:55]** challenge ourselves all the time to be better. >> And I think that's that's a that's a principle that I've always had. It's like me enough is never good enough for me. And and I always try and >> do the best I can and and that's that's okay if it's the best that you can do. >> That's what I and it's just a DNA within me. I think also if you're working on something that you're passionate about, right? Uh if if you're working on something you're not passionate about, >> Yeah. >> you kind anyone can kind of go, "Oh, that's good enough because I don't really care about it that much." Right. **[15:26]** >> That's right. >> But if I really care about it, >> then I know when I'm I know when I'm I'm cheating. I know when I'm not giving it my all. Right. I I can feel it. You You know in your in your heart of hearts, that little voice in the back of your head says, "You could have done a better job there." you just don't care, right? And so I think it's really common for I I'm pretty lucky. We've got a very low churn on our team and I've had, you know, team members that have been with me for a long time, but I've see uh **[15:56]** agencies and I see larger businesses and I have friends that work in corporate that couldn't give a [ __ ] about their job and they're just clocking in and getting the pay and clocking out and they're just they are quietly quitting to coin the phrase, they're just doing the bare minimum to get through. Right. First of all, as a business owner, how do you know when someone is just [ __ ] in the wrong seat? They shouldn't be here and they're just not they're just doing the bare minimum. And then what what do you do? Like how do you try and train them if they're not passionate? Do you have a conversation and say, "Listen, you need to get off the bus cuz you just shouldn't be here." Like what what does that process look like? It's a **[16:28]** really um sometimes it's incredibly challenging to solve that problem because if you have capacity issues uh you've got to walk on you know tread tread on you're treading on thin ice. Um and so if you put pressure on someone then they typically um will either respond to that or or just say I talk too hard I'm out. And so you sort of you've you've got to protect your business first. And and we actually **[16:58]** do have a situation at the moment with um some team members that um have had that sort of um sometimes limiting the belief and and um resolution to be able to do the things they need to do. And so do we have the do we have the chat or don't we? And I think that um I'm going to protect myself and make sure that we have the capacity before I have the conversation. So it's one thing to have a standard, it's another thing to shoot yourself in the foot. And so **[17:29]** that's that's balanced that you have to business owner. And that's >> 100% I've I've hung on to people way too long because I realize that if they're not in that seat, then someone else has to be in that seat and that could take us 3 months >> and therefore, you know, there goes another four hours of my day because someone has to do that job, right? And >> that's >> um it is tricky. You and I are working on something around this. I we can't talk too much about it, but I you know, funny how where all the great ideas come to you, but literally I was in the shower this morning and I just had a **[18:00]** brain wave. I'm like, "Oh, [ __ ] This is this is a no-brainer, right? That the the and you and I'll talk about that offline. Sorry, dear listeners, but we can't divulge too much right now. But but the the point is that if you need to hire someone and you don't have a list of candidates that you can go and talk to very quickly, it's going to take you a lot. If you're like, well, I need to hire a developer and I need to hire them now, so I'm going to start looking now. One of two things going to happen. **[18:30]** you're either going to hire the wrong person because you need to hire someone quickly, right? And then that's going to actually cost you more in the long run and send you back or if you do if you actually do the hiring process properly, probably going to take you six weeks or maybe even 3 months to hire the right person. >> We're three months in trying to find someone for >> month. So the point is I've I've been saying this for a long time, right? One, never stop marketing. Golden [ __ ] rule, never stop marketing. Now you your marketing is called SEO. You do great SEO on your website. It brings in lots of incoming inquiries, right? Why would you turn that off? Because, oh, we're at **[19:01]** capacity, so we need to dial down the SEO. You'd never do that. It's craziness, right? So, whatever your marketing channel is, kids, if you're listening, never stop marketing. If that means you're really active in Slack groups or Facebook groups and you pick up work that way, if you run Facebook ads, if you do networking, whatever it is, never stop marketing. And on the flip side, never stop recruiting. And when I say recruiting, I don't mean you have to hire people all the time, but you should always be building a pool of talent that you can tap into. >> Yeah. And I think one of the things that I learned too um and this again was was probably two years in uh when I started **[19:34]** working with you was understand capacity and don't let capacity get to a point where it's a breaking point where you need someone now know those numbers and be able to work out um at at a time when you say reach 80% capacity that's when you need to be hiring not when you're at 95% capacity because and and I had to work how to do that. And it was it was something that just I had to sit down. I I I love doing maths. And so I just sat down and I worked the numbers and I came **[20:05]** up with a formula that allowed me to do that. Um and we monitor that. It's part of part of our, you know, team lead KPIs that we look at on a monthly basis and we say, "Right, where's our capacity [clears throat] at?" And so that then allows us to trigger when we when we go for the recruitment aspect. How how do you how do you get I'm curious about this because I know Adam Silverman over the years has used ClickUp and yet he built some capacity dashboards over the years. How do you how do you find out how do you get the truth from your team? Right? Cuz I reckon **[20:35]** I reckon your team are always going to tell you they're at more capacity than they actually are. Right? So how do you objectively get that the true understanding of your team's capacity? So, the way I work it out is I say there's a book value that I expect my team to be able to achieve. And so, let's say if the $40,000 is the book value that I expect someone to have, um then we look at um and that's worked out by the number of clients they have by the value those clients bring. And then what we do is we work out how many hours those um people have as part of their **[21:08]** actual hours that they can manage servicing clients. So we take out meetings, we take out public holidays, we take out um all the other things that that should be taken out and we're left with I think it's about 80 hours a month that they have as as clientf facing um strategic sort of hours they can do. So if we divide um you know uh 80 hours a month into 400, it works out to be $500 an hour, right? That you charge. And so then what you do if you say if you charge if a client pays $2,000 it means **[21:40]** that you get four hours with of strategic thought for that client on a monthly basis. Now um what we can do is we can then look at um the the numbers and let's say someone's at 35,000 their book value is at 35,000. Well they're at 35 over 40 as their capacity score. So it's an objective measure. Now it's not perfect. Now, the other thing, too, is people might be thinking, $500, that's a crazy amount to be charging, but that includes that's my team, right? That's my wage, **[22:10]** it's my wife's wage, it's it's um our copywriters, it's our um support staff, it's it's everyone, right? Um all tied into that. And so, you get four hours to sit there and think strategy and review and all the other things. we we allocate different time for for client communication and reporting, but basically the way it works out is that you should be spending 4 hours on that client um per month. And if you're not, then you're under. And if you're doing more, then you're overervicing. And so it gives them a a a a healthy way to be **[22:42]** able to manage how much time they should be spending. Um and also whether we've underqued or overqued the client in terms of how much work needs to be done. So it's a good check. That's how we do it. And it's a really objective way to do it and it gives us really good clarity. The hardest part is to choose whether it's 40,000, 30,000, 50,000, whatever it might be. >> Yep. And that doesn't include implementation. This is just the >> Well, we have an implementation team as well. So they do some of the implementation, but there's largely another team that which is part of that **[23:13]** $500 an hour. Okay. >> There's another another team that does the backend stuff. So it's all done through the sort of like the strategist, the strategist, and the implementation. >> Okay. Got it. Um 80 hours a month is about yeah I call it two weeks of the month. What do they do in the other two weeks of the month? >> Well, they're doing reporting. >> They're doing um you know meetings and there's a whole heap of things. I can't remember what's in it, but it does work out to be about 80 hours. >> Yeah. Okay. Now I have to ask um how does how is AI how do you think **[23:45]** and we've had this conversation. I'm pretty bullish on AI. [laughter] [ __ ] I mean, every day, every day, every day I use AI and I go, "Well, well, there just there goes another job. There goes another [ __ ] there goes another career path, right? Just being completely replaced." And we've seen it happen. Video editors, right? Copywriters. Now, I'm not saying there's I think there's there'll always be a place for handcrafted art. There'll always be room and a and a **[24:17]** market and a place for beautifully written stories or content, right? There'll always be a place for the the the the handcrafting of a song or a video or a film, right? I went to what I went through an amazing film um one battle after another. The latest Paul Thomas Anderson film. It's two and a three/4 hours long, two and a half hours long in the cinema. Everything in that film was shot in camera. There is no AI. There's no computerenerated images in that camera in that film. And I came out of that film and I felt it was it's an **[24:49]** incredible movie. It's an absolute work of art. It'll be the film of the year. All the critics are saying it's the best film made in years, right? And I walked out and I was like, what was it about that film? One, it was shot on 70 mil film. He rebuilt a Panovision 70 mil film camera from the 1960s. You can't get them. He had to have one rebuilt. He shot it on film. There's no special effects. It felt like an old movie, right? And it was it was it it's art. There'll always be a place for that. **[25:20]** However, you look at something like K-pop Demon Hunters, right? Like or any of the latest um Pixar films, right? I mean, there's it's all generated by computers and it's it's generated a lot quicker than they used to be, right? Because of AI and technology. So, how do you fast forward three years and look at your agency structure now and say, you know, like one, are you nervous about AI or are you excited that AI is going to allow you to do more for your clients at a higher profit margin? Where do you sit **[25:53]** >> with this? Are you still are you still skeptical that it's too early to it? >> It's a little bit early. Um, and the reason why I say that is because I don't necessarily 100% trust the results that come back from AI at the moment. So, if I put in do keyword research for this client and competition analysis, it can't really come back with the sort of level of detail that it needs because you never really know if it's 100% accurate and most of the time it's probably not going to be. So, that's the first thing. I can't I can't ask um AI to produce something that I would **[26:25]** be happy to put my name to um like the lawyer did a few weeks ago when they had that case where they uh pulled out a fictitious um case and said, "Oh, you know, according to this one that it wasn't wasn't real, right?" Um and he got um crucified for it. But I I I so number one, I don't trust the results 100%. Right. Um and I think that most things that we do with AI have to be um um you know vetted where I see the role at the moment is is in um efficiency. **[26:55]** And so what I think is that and the way that I'm approaching you know the way we're we run our agency is to have strategic human thought um enhanced and made efficient with AI. That's that's the bottom line that I will always adopt until such time as it as it gets better. Now, you know, we did some research a few weeks back and and found that um cuz I asked the guys, I said, "Tell me what what percentage of of search results are coming through from AI and what are coming through from from Google." And on **[27:28]** our website, we're getting 2% coming in from AI, from chat, TPT, and whatever. And still 90% coming in from search. And I got them to do it on a few other clients. And that's pretty much the the standard, right? Um, so it's funny. I was talking to a psychologist this morning who is is looking to get some help with his website, and I said to him, do you think that um cuz I don't do you think that people are going to trust the bots to choose who they go and see and bear their soul to? And so I I mean, I **[28:02]** think I'm a little little bit protected in healthcare because I think healthcare is a very personal thing. when it comes to looking for information, um AI is going to take over and obliterate the search results. But for the things that we do, um which is largely service- based, location based type things, um I think, um SEO still has an incredibly powerful, um role to play. And I think that AI will will help to make that more efficient, but I don't necessarily think that it's going to **[28:32]** remove all strategic um direction for a campaign in the immediate future. And I know with um even with Google ads, we do a lot of Google ads as well. Um the results that we're getting from AI, we don't use AI because they're just they're just not accurate and they're not good. Um, and people might disagree and they might have found some some things that they find work pretty well for us. Um, I can't in good faith um, trust AI to deliver the the output that **[29:04]** we can get from human strategic thought at the moment, >> but we will use and and look, I just explained to you before, I I did a sales call before, used Fathom to record the call. um plugged it into a C custom GPT, wrote the most amazing summary email um telling the guy that what he needs is local SEO for his campaign and this is why and all this stuff. It was unbelievable. Would have taken me an hour to write and I wouldn't have done it as well. I did that in five minutes, right? So, that's saved my day. I can do **[29:34]** that and that's the sort of thing that I want. Another example, um using um what's that um bolt new to try and build some software and I'm not a coder. So I get to a certain point, it does about 60% really well. You get to a certain point and it just gets stuck and it can't get past it. It gets into a loop. That's the problem. And I think we're well verssed in how to use SEO, sorry, how to use AI. But for the average Joe Blogs out there, there's still a long time for them to pick up and get to the **[30:06]** point where they're going to feel confident. And I think that's still a while off. >> What about here's the future. I this I think this is the future. Right at the moment, there are a couple of tools SEO tools that put a bit of JavaScript on your on your website and they they will analyze your website from an SEO point of view and make changes to your website on the front end using a bit of JavaScript, right? It doesn't make changes in your WordPress website, in your content management system. It just does on the front end. Problem with that is that if you cancel your subscription, **[30:37]** that goes away because the JavaScript goes away. Right. So, on one hand, it's sticky for clients. On the other hand, I think it's a short-term play. >> Yeah. And what happens if the client gets in and updates part of the website and they think that it's live on the front end, but it's not. >> Yeah. Right. So, >> there's huge problems there. >> Yeah. So the other thing is there there are already AI agents for WordPress where you can basically log into WordPress and tell it what to do and it'll make changes in your WordPress website. We are moments away from We are moments away from your implementation team largely being replaced sorry by a **[31:10]** WordPress AI agent that's like here are the changes we need to make for the website go and do it and an AI agent's logged into WordPress and makes all the changes and can make those those changes to 100 websites concurrently right we're moments away from that now I think the challenge is for all humans and I put myself in this cate category as well, right? This is I'm I'm a strategic thinker, but I put myself in this category cuz I think we are moments away. I mean, I'm using custom GPTs and custom Geminis now thanks to Duncan in **[31:41]** Maverick Club who put me under uh Geminis cuz I just haven't got there yet. I'm all over Chaty and Claude. He's like, "Dude, you're a Google Workspace user. You should be using Gemini." I'm like, "All right, I went and build a custom gem to do the same thing that the custom GPD does on the sales call analysis." And I'm like, this thing is telling me how to close a client that I spoke with yesterday based on their specific like it's giving me a playbook on what exactly what I need to do to cover the objections in the in the post sale email follow-up to close this client right now. Sure, I I may have got **[32:14]** there. I may have thought about that if I had the time, but I don't. My calendar is completely smashed with sales calls. So I don't I don't have half an hour after every call to think, you know, what can I put together? I just have [ __ ] time, right? So I I think I think the the the the call for all of us, the call to arms for all of us, it's a huge opportunity for those of us that are thinking like this. I think all of us need to redefine the **[32:46]** value that we bring as humans. >> I agree >> to our clients, right? >> Completely agree >> because because if you're doing repetitive work, you're you're toast. It's game over, right? If you're doing I mean, have a look at what Canva just released with Canva AI a few days ago, right? It's a full full production studio. Video, audio, design, copy, code, written content, right? it like and this is just every single day I discover a new AI revelation that just **[33:18]** that I just can't even I can't even keep up with how fast it's moving. So, >> so and there are people saying that, you know, you can run a million dollar a year agency with one person and a bunch of AI and I absolutely believe it. I absolutely believe it. So, so what what does that mean? And I can also tell you that there are there are thousands of HubSpot agencies all over the world who have made a very good living over the last 15 years of helping small businesses scale up with HubSpot cuz HubSpot's a beast, right? We're a **[33:48]** HubSpot user for a few years. It's a beast. It's a big learning curve, right? Well, they've got their own co-pilot, Breeze. Now, I'm working with a private coaching client. I'll be doing some work for them in HubSpot. And he gave I said, "Look, I haven't seen HubSpot for a few years, so I might need to refresh my memory." He gave me view only access to his HubSpot the other day. And I logged in, had a look, and I'm like, "This is a no-brainer because I'll just use their co-pilot to design all the workflows, right? I don't need a developer." >> No, >> I don't need a HubSpot developer. So, there's hundreds of HubSpot agencies all over the world that have to pivot very **[34:19]** quickly, otherwise they're done because all the clients are bringing it in house, right? We're hearing this from our own agencies. So what is you know I mean I'm not scared but I've got a I've got a rocket up my ass to to reinvent our value proposition and I'm just you you're an established agency owner. You've got a big team. What? And you're not as bullish on this as I am. >> No. >> So what you know am I like am I just am I too enthusiastic about this? Am I too nervous? Am I too scared? Like where do **[34:51]** you think this is going to settle? I mean, is is is AI just going to become our our executive assistant and book flights and accommodation for us, or do you think it is actually going to replace a lot of jobs? >> I think it's going to replace a lot of jobs, but I also think that where it's going to be most valuable is under the control of a human, >> right? Yep. >> Right. I'm I'm old enough to remember Terminator. >> Yeah. >> And uh the bots the bots take over, right? >> Yeah. It's um I I don't I don't think **[35:21]** that's going to happen. But [clears throat] at the same time, it's it's it's a little bit scary because now you have to vet things that you see on social media and go, is that real or not real? And it's more often than not, and I think that's going to become better and better. >> But here here's here's the opportunity that I see. If everyone was using the same AI to produce the same outcome, where's the strategic advantage? that comes from a human to think outside the box. **[35:52]** That's that's what I want to do. And and so most of the things that you said before about what you're using AI for are just they're not they're not >> replacing you. They're enhancing and and creating efficiencies within what you do. That's where I see that. So what we will do is we will look at our process and we will say can this be done with AI and can it be done with a high level of accuracy or can it be done 80% with AI and directed 20% or review 20% with human to save 80% of the time and if we can do that then happy days where we all **[36:22]** we all win but ultimately again what I said at the start look after your patients push a little bit itself if you push out sheet with AI and and lose clients as a result of that don't come back and blame AI Yeah. >> Um because it's not AI's fault. >> And I think that I think you're like you're absolutely right. The problem is even if you even if you build a custom GPT to think outside the box and to zag while all the other AI is zigging, right? But what you have to remember is that someone else has got that custom GPT to do the same zag. So so it it's **[36:54]** it's >> it you know Max asked me a question yesterday and he he's kind of a bit tentative about asking me the question and he finally asked me the question. I said, "Mate, that is the best question you've asked." I said, "I wish everyone on the team came to me and asked the same question." He basically said, "There's a bunch of things I could be doing right now. I I" He basically wanted a sanity check that he's working on the right thing at the right time. Said, "This is what AI is going to allow us to do. AI is going to allow us to sit **[37:25]** down and say, "What is our priority and what should we be working on right now to add the most value to our clients and the business?" Because all the [ __ ] that I used to do is 80% of us done by AI now. So, I've actually got time in my calendar to have a conversation about how I can be most valuable to my clients and the business. And I think very few employees are going to have the courage to admit that they're not exactly sure what they should be working on or they **[37:55]** feel a bit lost because AI is doing a lot of their job. Right? I think I said to Max, a lot of staff are just very good at looking busy cuz they want to appear busy. I don't want my staff to look busy. I want my staff to look bored. I want them to come to me and go, I don't know what I'm supposed to do. [ __ ] great. Let's sit down and think. >> Yeah. Right. Yeah, absolutely. And I think what you're talking about there is accountability, right? And it's it's about because AI doesn't forget. So, if you can have AI measuring and monitoring **[38:27]** what you're doing and making sure that you're moving to towards the end point where you want to go, then happy days. And and it's because it's not going to forget. It's going to be objective and it's going to be um able to to to give you the feedback that you need in order to be able to produce the result that you're meant to be doing. >> Yeah. >> So, all all the above. And that's why, you know, like these sales calls summaries and whatever, like it just doesn't forget anything. You don't have to take notes anymore. It's just incredible. And you've got a record of it sitting on your computer if you ever want to go back and say, "Oh, hang on. You didn't say that or we didn't say that or I didn't say that. Here's here's **[38:58]** the transcript." Um, so anyway, I I think it's it's um efficiency is where I see it at the moment. I just don't trust the data. >> Yeah. um quiet at the moment because you know it it does it literally makes stuff up. >> It does. Yeah. Yeah. Um I want to tear you up here to kind of hit a bit of a home run cuz I think I know how you can answer this question. But I talk to a lot of agency owners who are looking for a magic bullet, right? And they'll look at someone like you who's running a very successful agency and they'll compare **[39:29]** where they are to where you are now and they're just starting out, right? And and I say to them all the time, what you have to remember is Simon's got over a decade of SEO on his website. And when he started, he had a great referral channel that was referring a lot of work to him. You don't have that. You don't have a referral partner. You don't have a decade of SEO on your website. So, you can't compare, right? If you didn't have that referral partner and you were just starting out, what's the magic bullet? What's the magic secret to go and get **[40:00]** clients? Um, deliver the promise. Do what you do what you say. >> Mhm. [clears throat] >> Be accountable. >> Mhm. >> Look after your patients. >> Yeah. >> Look after your Look after your clients. >> Yeah. >> That's it. That's the magic. That's all they want. Communicate. >> Yeah. >> And when you and when you when you were starting out, obviously you knew chiropractors, right? Did you were you doing outreach? Were you contacting them and saying >> they were coming to you? Cuz you you had **[40:30]** a good referral partner, right, that was sending you a lot of work. >> Yeah. >> And then it was just word of mouth that you were doing a good job. >> When I when I bought this building that I'm in now, cuz I don't I don't rent, I buy. Um and I was working at home and it just wasn't working. It just it wasn't right. And so I I looked that night and I made a decision to to buy and we bought it the next day. Um, and I've been here for eight or nine years since, but um, I I just made that decision that I was **[41:02]** going to, um, cuz I had about 20 or 30 clients. So whether or not I made a go of it down here, it it was just it was at that point where I had enough to to say, you know what, if I don't get another new patient in, there's enough people coming through, it was going to work. But I just focused on delivering that promise and um and then we just because I was fairly early on in the in the in the game in terms of SEO for healthcare and things like that and we just we we were **[41:33]** one of the first to market and that really helped. And so that's just all we've done ever since. and um >> yeah the rest >> but also you you've the thing I know the thing I noticed about you and I don't know whether you had this when you first started out the thing I noticed about you is that you have a genuine conviction when you're talking to someone that you know you're not trying to convince them >> you don't have to because you know that you can help them and in fact you'll say you you'll say no to a client if you don't think you can help them. >> Yeah 100%. My brother often says to me your greatest um um sales approach is **[42:07]** that you don't think you're a salesman. Um because I don't I I'm not a salesman. I'm just I just I'm honest. Brutally honest. And I if someone comes in me with a crap website, I'll tell them because it's not serving anyone not to. >> That's right. >> And it's the same it's it's it's it's what I learned as as a health practitioner, right? Is don't tell patients what they want. Tell them what they need. That's the that's you know, again, it's it's the learnings from having to say because people come into a chiropractor, right? they've got back pain that's been **[42:38]** going for 5 years and and like you can't fix them in three visits. It's going to take ages to fix it. It'll take you 6 months to help them and then even then you won't fix them because they're doing the same insult to their back every day when they go to work. You have that ongoing maintenance. Um but as a business owner with what I do now is when I get on the phone, I say, you know, what's the problem? How quick do you need your results? Okay, let's let's work at a solution. this is what I have. Um, and if someone comes in and they **[43:08]** don't have a searchbased um, thing, they need social, I'll say, probably not the agency for you. >> And and and how do you deal with that? I know a lot of agency owners get get [ __ ] up around money, right? It's like when when they go, "Well, well, this is this is what we can do and it's going to cost this much." And the client's like, "Oh, [ __ ] I didn't think it was going to cost that much." and then all of a sudden the agency owner freaks out and they have all this imposttor syndrome and their head explodes because they've got a weird relationship with money. >> How do you just kind of hold that space and go well if you can't afford it? You **[43:39]** know there I mean does that come from your the kind of health background? Like I I always think the best position you can have on a sales call is that of a general practitioner, a GP, right? You go to see the doctor and doctor says how can I help? Okay, well here's a medicine. Go buy it. And if you don't buy it, that's not my problem. You've still got the rash, not me. much. It's like um as I said to this um guy before that I was speaking to um that's the problem. There's a solution. I just because you work two days a week **[44:09]** doesn't mean I can reduce my fee. You've got to compete with everyone that's doing this for you know 5 days a week or seven days a week and they're they're paying full fair. So I I I'm I'm fortunate that I don't have to worry about that. We've got leads coming out of our back. So >> yes. Yes. But I will say this, the moment you adopt that mentality, even if you have no clients, the mo because if you if you try and go, well, you're only working 2 days a week, so I'll give it to you for, you know, 40% of the price, **[44:39]** right? Guess what? You're going to spend your entire career doing that. The moment you adopt that mentality and go, "Well, I'm sorry. I can't help you. If you can't pay my fee, I can't help you." The moment you adopt that mentality, everything starts to change right now. Sure, you got to pay the rent, right? But don't I've I've said this, you know, when I first started out, I was fortunate enough that I was doing voiceovers and I was playing five gigs a week around town. So, I was earning enough to pay the rent, right? I I wasn't going hungry. I could survive until I got this up and about, until I got this thing full-time. But, I think **[45:10]** if you take on bad clients that aren't profitable because you need the money, it's going to it takes a long time to get out of that problem. >> It does. It does. And and and it becomes resentful after a while. Correct. That's right. not something it's not a not a healthy way to do it. And I think the other thing too is that >> working with patients, working with with um clients that respect uh your systems and and and uh have boundaries is extremely important. And so I I just I feel as though, you know, being transparent um this is **[45:41]** what you need, this is how much it costs. Um then's the brakes. >> Yeah. That's it. Yeah. Otherwise, you know, go go and do it yourself if you can't afford to pay or choose someone who doesn't have 15 years of experience working with healthcare clients and and um see what you get. >> Yeah. Yep. Mate, thank you again for joining the Agency Hour podcast. I really appreciate your time and everything you contribute to the community. It's just been I'm glad we crossed paths six years ago whenever it was we met and you and Carolyn came down to the office and grilled me and made sure [laughter] I wasn't full of [ __ ] You've become great friends over the **[46:12]** years. I love hanging out with you guys and uh thanks again for for sharing your insights with our community. Always a pleasure, mate. Always. >> Thanks for listening to the agency, our podcast. And a huge thanks to Simon for coming and sharing his insights with the community. I really appreciate him and everything he does for our community. He runs regular calls with our agency owners as well, helping them, you know, just whatever they need in their business. So, it's great to have him as part of the community. He's a very important part of what we do here. Please like, share, subscribe, do **[46:42]** whatever you do with podcast these days. uh stick it into one of your AI tools and have it transcribed and turn it into an a summary and read it over and over again. Whatever you do, I don't care. Um get whatever value you can out of it, but share it with someone who you think may benefit from it. And if you want to have a conversation with us about working with us to help you grow your agency, whether you need more clients, if you need more staff, if you need to increase your fees, if you need to make more profit, if you need to pivot, if you need to understand how to use AI, whatever you need, there'll be a link **[47:13]** near this episode where you can [music] schedule a call to chat with someone on the team and we'll give you 20 free leads just for turning up and having a conversation with us. So, take advantage of that. [music] All right, I will see you next week. And remember, the footprints that were made on the moon will be there for a 100 million years.