Why This Bethel Alumni is Calling Out the Passion Translation  🔗 **Source:** [Why This Bethel Alumni is Calling Out the Passion Translation](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pu4mxmGrHvo) > [!note]+ Document Notes > tags: [passion-translation, bethel-church, spiritual-abuse-accountability, bible-translation-controversy, charismatic-movement, bssm] > author: Dusty May Taylor (guest); hosted by Pastor Hansel and Natalie > source: Pastor and Wife (@pastorandwife) > reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pu4mxmGrHvo > date created: 2026-07-16 > > # 🏷️ Title: Why This Bethel Alumni is Calling Out the Passion Translation > <!-- deep-read:sections start --> ## 🧭 Table of Contents - [📝 Summary](#-summary) - [📖 Main Content](#-main-content) - [🗒️ Notes](#️-notes) - [📚 References](#-references) - [🗣️ Paraphrase](#️-paraphrase) - [📰 Newsletter](#-newsletter) - [✅ Action Items](#-action-items) - [🧪 Hypotheses](#-hypotheses) - [📊 Methodology](#-methodology) - [❓ Questions](#-questions) - [🔮 Future Research](#-future-research) - [💡 Implications](#-implications) - [🧠 Learning Styles Assessment](#-learning-styles-assessment) - [📊 Accessibility Assessment](#-accessibility-assessment) - [🌍 DEIB Assessment](#-deib-assessment) - [✅ Logical Validity](#-logical-validity) - [🛡️ DARVO Analysis](#-darvo-analysis) - [🎯 Conclusion](#-conclusion) ## 📝 Summary - Dusty May Taylor, a 2012–2015 Bethel Supernatural School of Ministry (BSSM) alumna, returns to the Pastor and Wife podcast to discuss why she now rejects The Passion Translation (TPT), the Brian Simmons "Bible" long associated with Bethel Church. - Trigger for the episode: Bethel Church's online bookstore briefly removed TPT, alumni celebrated, and two days later it was quietly reinstated with no public explanation — reopening a controversy the hosts say Bethel has never formally addressed. - Core claim: TPT is marketed as a translation from original-language texts, but comparison against Greek sources (via Logos Bible Software) and the independent investigative work of the YouTube channel Minor Prophets shows insertions, reversed meanings (e.g., "Jesus gave glory to people" instead of receiving it), and self-attributed poetry not present in the source text — behavior the hosts and guest characterize as fraud rather than translation or paraphrase. - Key stakeholders: Bethel Church leadership (Bill Johnson specifically named for calling TPT "the best thing to happen to Bible translations," never retracted), Brian and Candace Simmons (translator and self-described co-translator), the official and unofficial BSSM alumni Facebook groups, and the wider charismatic/continuationist movement whose credibility the speakers argue is being damaged by association. - Risks and tradeoffs discussed: financial incentive (TPT sold as individual volumes, described by an unnamed theologian friend as "a huge money-maker"), reputational risk to legitimate continuationist theology, psychological harm from "declare it and it comes to pass" theology when prophecies fail, and a documented pattern of the official BSSM alumni group rejecting or heavily moderating posts that raise the topic. - Bottom line: the speakers frame this as an internal accountability effort ("we're not attacking Bethel... we actually love them") urging charismatics to drop TPT in favor of standard scholarly translations (NASB, ESV, NKJV, NLT) without abandoning belief in the gifts of the Spirit. ## 📖 Main Content The episode is a three-way conversation (two hosts, one returning guest) rather than a scripted piece, so the "argument" builds cumulatively across ~84 minutes. The throughline: TPT's problem is not that it is emotionally resonant or poetic — the hosts repeatedly concede it "flows" and "is beautiful writing" — but that it is marketed and shelved as a *translation* rather than as a paraphrase, commentary, or devotional poetry, and that this mislabeling has theological consequences. The specific textual complaint anchoring the episode is a claimed reversal in glory-attribution: standard translations describe people giving glory to Jesus, while TPT is described as having Jesus give glory to people instead — repeated across multiple passages, which the speakers argue subtly re-centers scripture on human agency and self-affirmation rather than divine sovereignty. They connect this pattern to Bethel's broader "identity" teaching (that the "original sin" was not knowing you were "already like God") and argue both trends independently drift toward a New-Age-adjacent, self-deifying theology the speakers explicitly compare to the (unrelated) "Mirror Bible" by Francois Du Toit and to Gnosticism. A second major thread is institutional behavior: the removal-then-reinstatement of TPT from Bethel's bookstore, Bill Johnson's uncontested "best thing to happen to Bible translations" claim, and a documented pattern of the official BSSM alumni Facebook group rejecting posts that attempt to discuss TPT — contrasted with the same group apparently tolerating debate on other translation controversies (e.g., KJV-onlyism). The speakers infer institutional disagreement or paralysis from Bethel's silence, but explicitly flag this as speculation ("This is Destiny's imagination... Angel Passion did not tell me this"). A third thread is pastoral: both hosts and the guest discuss how to walk a congregant back from emotional/spiritual attachment to TPT without invalidating whatever genuine spiritual experiences they had while reading it — proposing that believers audit whether a given "encounter" holds up against a faithful translation rather than abandoning the encounter or the practice of Bible reading altogether. Uncertain/contested points the speakers themselves flag: (1) whether Brian Simmons had any genuine spiritual encounter versus fabricating the "angel named Passion" origin story — contradictory public clips are cited but not shown in this episode; (2) whether the bookstore reinstatement reflects institutional disagreement or is simply "Occam's razor" (no unified position, so reversal happens by default); (3) whether financial incentive is a primary driver — sourced to one unnamed "theologian friend," not independently verified in this episode. ### 🗒️ Notes #### ⏱️ [00:00:02](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pu4mxmGrHvo&t=2) Cold open and guest intro - Hosts Hansel and Natalie welcome returning guest Dusty May Taylor to discuss TPT. - Framing set immediately: this is a follow-up to the Minor Prophets channel's TPT investigation. #### ⏱️ [00:01:31](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pu4mxmGrHvo&t=91) Dusty's original enthusiasm for TPT - Dusty describes owning an early (2017) edition and initially loving its "poetic," "faithful to the original language" feel. - She says she publicly apologized on Facebook for having recommended it once she learned more. #### ⏱️ [00:03:02](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pu4mxmGrHvo&t=182) The Logos Bible Software comparison - Dusty recounts a theologian friend (unnamed) calling her around 2015–2017 to warn her off TPT. - Method described: comparing TPT passages to Greek text using Logos Bible Software. - Direct claim: "there's stuff in there that's not in the Bible." #### ⏱️ [00:04:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pu4mxmGrHvo&t=240) Translation vs. paraphrase vs. commentary - Natalie draws the category distinction explicitly: The Message calls itself a paraphrase; TPT calls itself a translation while allegedly functioning as neither. - Argument: the problem isn't charismatic theology or "religious spirit" accusations — it's the false labeling. #### ⏱️ [00:07:31](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pu4mxmGrHvo&t=451) The "angel named Passion" origin story - Natalie describes multiple clips of Brian Simmons claiming an angel named Passion gave him the translation, and other clips where he denies ever saying that. - Speakers explicitly decline to diagnose the cause (spiritual encounter, fabrication, or something else) and note "there are multiple reasons why a person might contradict themselves." #### ⏱️ [00:08:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pu4mxmGrHvo&t=510) The glory-reversal pattern - Central textual example: passages where people give Jesus glory are allegedly rewritten so Jesus gives glory to people. - Framed as a repeated pattern, not an isolated instance, that "removes from people's Bible study" the sense of human smallness before God. #### ⏱️ [00:17:31](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pu4mxmGrHvo&t=1051) BSSM taught from TPT during Dusty's enrollment - Dusty confirms TPT (partial/in-progress editions) was preached from at BSSM during her 2012–2015 enrollment. - Describes the in-school narrative as: TPT would "remove partisan errors" and be "more faithful to the spirit of God." #### ⏱️ [00:19:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pu4mxmGrHvo&t=1170) Bill Johnson's uncontested endorsement - Natalie: "I remember Bill Johnson he said that the Passion Translation is the best thing to happen to Bible translations." - Dusty notes there is no historical Aramaic manuscript TPT could plausibly be translated from (the Peshitta is later and reads close to modern translations), making the "best thing" claim harder to defend on textual grounds. - **Cross-reference:** this claim is examined directly in Bill Johnson's own defense of TPT, processed in the same batch (video ID `4y2vtk_hjQQ`, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4y2vtk_hjQQ) — pair these two notes for the fullest picture of claim vs. counter-claim. #### ⏱️ [00:23:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pu4mxmGrHvo&t=1380) No institutional retraction - Hansel: "it's insane that they didn't retract" Bill Johnson's statement; speculates Bethel leadership may be internally divided but presents no unified public statement either way. - Explicitly hedges this as inference, not confirmed fact. #### ⏱️ [00:24:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pu4mxmGrHvo&t=1440) Bookstore removal, then reinstatement within 48 hours - TPT was pulled from Bethel's online store; alumni "much rejoicing"; reinstated two days later with no explanation. - Dusty frames her own theory about internal pushback as speculation: "This is Destiny's imagination... Angel Passion did not tell me this." #### ⏱️ [00:25:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pu4mxmGrHvo&t=1500) Official alumni group rejects TPT-critical posts - Dusty (an admin of the *unofficial* alumni group, not the official Bethel-run one) says multiple attempts to post about TPT/Minor Prophets in the official group were rejected. - She reports having "three pending posts" and suspects she may be shadow-banned from posting. #### ⏱️ [00:26:01](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pu4mxmGrHvo&t=1561) History of the official group being shut down - Dusty says the official group was fully shut down once before over "accountability and correction" conversations Bethel didn't approve of, citing unspecified legal reasons as a partial explanation, then reopened under heavier moderation. #### ⏱️ [00:30:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pu4mxmGrHvo&t=1830) The financial-motive hypothesis - Dusty relays her theologian friend's 2017 comment: TPT is "a huge money-maker" sold as individual volumes, plus downstream revenue for affiliated networks (Che Ahn's HIM network named). - Flagged by both hosts as an uncomfortable but "not unrealistic" possible explanation for institutional inertia — not presented as proven. #### ⏱️ [00:53:01](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pu4mxmGrHvo&t=3181) Candace Simmons' "it's better" quote (via Minor Prophets) - Relayed clip: Brian Simmons' wife Candace describes telling him to reword passages because "it's better," and says that's how she became his co-translator. - Speakers argue this reveals an editorial/literary process, not a translation process — "that's not the fear of the Lord. That's not scholarly translation." #### ⏱️ [01:03:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pu4mxmGrHvo&t=3780) "Declare it and it will come to pass" and burnout - Discussion of TPT-associated word-of-faith language and its psychological cost: unfulfilled personal prophecies lead some believers to conclude either they personally failed ("I must not have declared enough") or that scripture itself is false. - Dusty shares her own experience of prophetic words at BSSM frequently not coming to pass as stated. #### ⏱️ [01:15:02](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pu4mxmGrHvo&t=4502) "Original sin was not knowing you were already like God" - Natalie describes a teaching she says she heard at Bethel: that the root of sin is not disobedience but failing to realize you were "already like God." - Both hosts flag this framing as functionally indistinguishable from New Age "Christ consciousness" teaching, and pivot to naming pride (not just deception) as the deeper issue — including in themselves for not speaking up sooner. #### ⏱️ [01:21:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pu4mxmGrHvo&t=4890) Closing advice - Dusty's closing message: "You really don't need it… the Holy Spirit has been ministering to Christians with more faithful, scholarly, rigorous translations forever." - Recommends congregants raise the topic directly with their own pastors and watch the (much longer) Minor Prophets investigation. ## 📚 References - [Minor Prophets (YouTube channel, David Fish)](https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=minor+prophets+passion+translation) — cited repeatedly as the primary investigative source underlying this episode's textual claims; not independently verified within this video. - Bill Johnson's own defense of The Passion Translation — [video ID 4y2vtk_hjQQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4y2vtk_hjQQ), processed in the same batch; direct counter-source to the Bill Johnson quote discussed at 19:30. - The Passion Translation, Brian Simmons (translator), TPT Media/BroadStreet Publishing — primary text under critique. - Logos Bible Software — tool cited as the method for comparing TPT to Greek source text. - Bethel Supernatural School of Ministry (BSSM), Bethel Church, Redding, CA — institutional context for both speaker and guest. - The Mirror Bible, Francois Du Toit — named as a more extreme comparison case ("teaches you that you are God basically"). - Ellen G. White / Seventh-day Adventist Church — historical analogy Natalie draws for extra-biblical "prophet" writings being treated as scripture-adjacent authority. - *Against Heresies*, Irenaeus — referenced by Natalie as a personal touchstone for continuationist theology grounded in early-church sources rather than TPT. - Jonathan Pageau (Orthodox commentator) — brief reference to his "who does it serve?" framing, applied here to TPT's function. ## 🗣️ Paraphrase Dusty spent years as a Bethel insider who genuinely loved The Passion Translation before a theologian friend showed her, using Logos Bible Software, that passages didn't match the underlying Greek. What bothers her now isn't that TPT is poetic — she admits it's beautiful — it's that it's marketed as a faithful translation when it functions more like Brian Simmons' personal commentary, complete with claimed insertions and a repeated pattern of shifting scriptural glory from God onto people. She connects this to a broader Bethel teaching that reframes original sin as not-realizing-you're-already-like-God, which she and the hosts see as functionally New Age. Institutionally, she describes a Bethel that has never retracted Bill Johnson's public praise of TPT, briefly pulled it from the church bookstore only to quietly restore it two days later, and has repeatedly rejected or heavily moderated attempts by its own alumni to discuss the topic in the official Facebook group — a pattern she reads as evidence of unresolved internal disagreement rather than confident institutional consensus. She and the hosts float financial incentive as a plausible (not proven) explanation, given TPT is sold volume-by-volume. Throughout, all three repeatedly insist they aren't attacking Bethel or rejecting charismatic theology — they want a more textually rigorous version of the same tradition, and closing advice to listeners is simply: use a standard translation, and raise the issue directly with your own pastor. ## 📰 Newsletter - Not applicable to WordPress/DevRel content — this is theological/media-accountability material for personal study, unrelated to WordPress, plugins, or developer community work. - For Courtney's own tracking: pairs directly with the Bill Johnson TPT-defense video (`4y2vtk_hjQQ`) processed the same day — worth a synthesis note connecting claim (Bethel/Bill Johnson's public praise) to counter-claim (this alumni critique) once both are in the vault. ## ✅ Action Items #### DevRel - Not applicable to this source. #### OSPO - Not applicable to this source. #### Community - Not applicable to this source. #### WordPress - Not applicable to this source. #### The WPCC - Not applicable to this source. #### FAIR - Not applicable to this source. ## 🧪 Hypotheses - Bethel Church's alternating removal and reinstatement of TPT from its online bookstore reflects unresolved internal leadership disagreement rather than a single, deliberate institutional position. - TPT's documented alterations (e.g., glory-attribution reversals, first-person authorial insertions) systematically shift interpretive emphasis toward human agency and self-affirmation relative to standard scholarly translations, when measured across a representative sample rather than anecdotally. - Financial incentive (per-volume TPT sales and affiliated-network revenue) measurably correlates with institutional reluctance to retract public endorsements of TPT. - Moderation policy in the official BSSM alumni Facebook group disproportionately suppresses posts critical of TPT/Bethel leadership relative to posts on other doctrinally contested topics (e.g., translation philosophy generally, cessationism vs. continuationism). - Charismatic believers whose spiritual formation relied heavily on TPT-linked "declare it and it comes to pass" theology report higher rates of prophetic-word disillusionment or faith deconstruction than peers formed on standard translations. ### 📊 Methodology - Comparative textual analysis: sample a stratified set of TPT verses (Psalms, Pauline epistles, Gospels) against critical Greek/Hebrew text and 2–3 standard translations (NASB, ESV, NIV), coded for additions, omissions, and directionality of any glory/agency shifts — replicating and extending the Minor Prophets methodology referenced but not shown in this video. - Content audit of the official BSSM alumni Facebook group: track post-approval vs. rejection rates for TPT-critical content against a matched sample of other doctrinal-debate posts over a defined window, with rejection criteria requested from moderators for comparison. - Financial-disclosure review: examine any available Bethel Church or Passion & Fire Ministries revenue reporting tied to TPT sales timing, cross-referenced against public statements and bookstore listing changes. - Longitudinal survey of charismatic believers: translation used, prophetic-word experiences, and current faith status, to test the disillusionment hypothesis with actual response data rather than the anecdotal case presented here. - Discourse-consistency analysis of Bill Johnson's and Bethel leadership's public statements on TPT over time (sermons, podcasts, official communications) to check for unacknowledged reversals. ### ❓ Questions - Why has Bethel never issued a unified public statement on TPT despite years of documented scholarly and alumni criticism? - What is the actual financial relationship between Bethel Church, Passion & Fire Ministries, and Brian Simmons around TPT sales and royalties? - How do Brian Simmons' documented on-camera claims about an "angel named Passion" reconcile with his on-camera denials — and has any Bethel leader asked him directly? - Does the official BSSM alumni Facebook group operate under written moderation criteria, and are they applied consistently across doctrinal topics? - When coded systematically rather than anecdotally, does TPT's divergence from source text skew measurably toward elevating human agency, or is the glory-reversal pattern cited here an outlier example? ### 🔮 Future Research - A transparent, publicly reproducible verse-by-verse audit of TPT against critical texts, building on and citing Minor Prophets' work directly (this episode relies on it secondhand). - Structured interviews with multiple BSSM alumni (beyond this one guest) on institutional silencing experiences, to test whether the moderation pattern described here is representative or anecdotal. - Comparative psychological research on prosperity/declaration theology's effects (burnout, self-blame, disillusionment) specifically within charismatic communities that used TPT versus those that didn't. - Investigative reporting into the internal decision process behind Bethel's bookstore removal-then-reinstatement of TPT. ### 💡 Implications - **Practice:** pastors recommending Bible resources to congregants need clear criteria for distinguishing translations from paraphrases/commentaries, and should disclose that distinction explicitly. - **Policy:** church-affiliated bookstores and publishing arms could adopt disclosure norms around authors'/translators' financial stake in a resource they promote. - **Education:** charismatic leaders without formal seminary training benefit from basic textual-criticism literacy — several points in this episode hinge on knowing what the Peshitta is or how translation committees handle disputed readings. - **Community moderation:** alumni and community Facebook groups need written, consistently applied moderation policy distinguishing "accountability discussion" from "attack," or risk the appearance (fair or not) of institutional cover-up. - **Funding models:** dependence on book-sales revenue tied to one leader's proprietary "translation" creates a conflict-of-interest risk that complicates honest institutional self-correction. ### 🧠 Learning Styles Assessment - Reading level estimate: approximately Flesch-Kincaid grade 7–8 for the raw transcript (conversational spoken register, short clauses, frequent filler words), rising into the 10–11 range at points using domain vocabulary (continuationism, cessationism, Gnostic, egalitarian/complementarian, Peshitta) without definition. #### 👀 Visual learners - Present: none — audio/video talking-head format with no on-screen text, charts, or citations shown. - Improve: on-screen citation cards for the specific TPT-vs-Greek verse comparisons discussed; a simple timeline graphic of the bookstore removal/reinstatement. #### 🔊 Aural learners - Present: the native format — full conversational audio with natural back-and-forth, well suited to this group. - Improve: none needed; format already serves this style well. #### 🗣️ Verbal learners - Present: extended analogies (the "good spy vs. obvious spy," "big bad wolf," medical check-up metaphors) aid comprehension. - Improve: a plain-language glossary for terms like continuationist/cessationist/complementarian/egalitarian would help listeners outside charismatic-church vocabulary. #### 🧩 Kinesthetic learners - Present: none — no interactive or hands-on component. - Improve: a companion worksheet prompting listeners to compare one TPT verse against their own Bible, as Dusty describes doing with friends. #### 🧠 Logical learners - Present: the translation-vs-paraphrase category argument and the "if X then Y" reasoning about continuationism not requiring a fabricated Bible are logically structured. - Improve: an explicit claim/evidence table (claim, textual example, source) would strengthen the argument's legibility, since key evidence (Minor Prophets' verse-by-verse findings) is referenced, not shown. #### 🧑‍🤝‍🧑 Social learners - Present: strong — the episode itself models a supportive, community-processing conversation and repeatedly references the alumni group as a community space. - Improve: pointing listeners to a moderated discussion space (given the official group's restrictions) would extend this strength. #### 🧘‍♀️ Solitary learners - Present: minimal built-in reflection prompts; the "is it because I like what it says, or because it's God's word" self-check (around 47:00) is a reusable personal audit tool. - Improve: could isolate that self-check into a standalone printable reflection exercise. #### 🌿 Naturalistic learners - Present: not applicable to this content domain. - Improve: not applicable. ### 📊 Accessibility Assessment #### Screen reader semantics - Present: N/A at the source (YouTube's standard player chrome); this note's own heading structure provides screen-reader-navigable landmarks. - Improve: video description could include a structured timestamp outline (YouTube supports chapter markers) for screen-reader and low-bandwidth users. #### Keyboard navigation - Present: standard YouTube player keyboard controls apply. - Improve: none identified beyond platform-level controls, which are outside the creator's control. #### Contrast and readability - Present: N/A — talking-head video with no on-screen text overlays to assess. - Improve: if on-screen citation text is added per the Visual learners note above, ensure 4.5:1 minimum contrast. #### Text resizing and reflow - Present: N/A to video content itself. - Improve: not applicable. #### Media and captions - Present: auto-generated English captions available (used to produce this transcript); no manually corrected captions or downloadable transcript found on the video page. - Improve: manually reviewed captions would fix auto-caption errors (e.g., misheard theological terms) and materially improve accessibility for Deaf/hard-of-hearing viewers given the 84-minute runtime. #### Forms and interactions - Present: N/A — no forms or interactive elements in this content type. - Improve: not applicable. #### Standards reference - Primary gap against WCAG 2.2 AA: 1.2.2 (Captions, Prerecorded) is technically met via auto-captions but with likely accuracy issues on proper nouns and theological terms; no gap in 1.4.3 (Contrast) or 2.1.1 (Keyboard) since there's no custom UI to assess. ### 🌍 DEIB Assessment #### Cultural breadth - Present: single denominational/cultural lens (American charismatic evangelicalism); comparisons drawn to Seventh-day Adventism and Orthodox commentary (Jonathan Pageau) broaden it slightly. - Improve: engaging non-Western or non-charismatic Christian perspectives on Bible translation ethics would strengthen the argument's generalizability. #### Inclusive language - Present: gender-neutral framing when discussing "believers" and "the church"; jargon (continuationist, cessationist, complementarian, egalitarian) used without definition. - Improve: brief inline definitions or a linked glossary would make the episode accessible to listeners outside this specific theological subculture. #### Neurodiversity support - Present: the long, loosely structured 84-minute conversational format lacks chapter breaks or topic signposting within the video itself. - Improve: chapter markers (YouTube supports these) at natural topic shifts — several are identified in the Notes section above — would substantially aid listeners who benefit from predictable structure. #### Representation - Present: two women (host Natalie, guest Dusty) lead most of the substantive theological argument alongside male host Hansel; balanced speaking time across the episode. - Improve: the topic itself (BSSM/Bethel alumni) is demographically narrow by design; not a flaw in this specific episode. #### Psychological safety - Present: hosts explicitly frame the conversation as non-adversarial ("we're not attacking Bethel... we actually love them"), acknowledge their own past complicity, and repeatedly say "we could be wrong" — this models respectful disagreement. - Improve: no visible content warning at video start for viewers who may be currently processing spiritual harm from Bethel/BSSM; a brief signpost would help given the subject matter. ### ✅ Logical Validity #### Strong reasoning - Category distinction (translation vs. paraphrase vs. commentary), used consistently to argue TPT is mislabeled rather than merely disliked — located ~04:00. This is a legitimate genre-based argument: labeling claims carry different truth conditions, and TPT's self-description as a "translation" invites textual-fidelity scrutiny that a self-described paraphrase would not. - Internal-consistency argument (~11:32–13:31): continuationist theology does not logically require an inaccurate Bible to affirm the gifts of the Spirit; serious scholars affirm continuationism using accurate translations. This is a strong argument because it isolates the actual point of disagreement (TPT's fidelity) from an unrelated one (whether the gifts are real), preventing a false package deal. - Explicit self-flagging of speculation (~24:30, "This is Destiny's imagination... Angel Passion did not tell me this") — good epistemic hygiene that strengthens rather than weakens the argument's credibility elsewhere. #### Fallacies - **Argument from silence** (~23:00–23:30): inferring internal Bethel leadership disagreement primarily from the *absence* of a public statement and from the bookstore reversal. The speakers do hedge this ("it might be pulling in multiple directions for all we know"), which mitigates but doesn't eliminate the fallacy — silence is also consistent with simple institutional inertia, legal caution, or unified indifference. Fix: seek direct comment from Bethel leadership before treating internal division as the most likely explanation. - **Unverified secondhand testimony treated as load-bearing evidence** for the financial-motive hypothesis (~30:00): the sole source is "one of our friends... a theologian," unnamed, recounting a 2017 conversation. This isn't a formal fallacy so much as a sourcing weakness — the claim is plausible but not independently corroborated within this episode. Fix: cite public revenue figures or named sources if the financial-incentive claim is to carry real evidentiary weight. - **Reliance on an unshown external source for the core textual evidence**: the most specific claims (verse counts, "he inserted his own poem," the "angel Passion" contradiction clips) are attributed to the Minor Prophets investigation, which this episode discusses but does not itself display or quote at length. This is a sourcing-transparency gap rather than a logical fallacy proper, but it means a listener cannot verify the central textual claims from this video alone. - Fallacy **used against** the speakers, which they correctly identify and rebut (~50:30–51:00): charismatic peers reportedly tell Dusty "you're so ignorant... they all just insert their own opinions" about Bible translations generally — a false-equivalence/genetic-fallacy move that collapses the real distinction between footnoted translation-committee judgment calls and TPT's undisclosed insertions. The speakers' rebuttal here is logically sound. #### Tone of voice - Predominantly pastoral and self-implicating rather than combative: repeated first-person confession ("I'm guilty of that too," "I repent for even thinking some of these things"), explicit disclaimers against being anti-Bethel, and collaborative "processing" language throughout. Occasional moments of dry humor (the "angel Passion did not tell me this" aside) lighten otherwise heavy material without undermining the substantive critique. ### 🛡️ DARVO Analysis - **Deny** (as *experienced* by the speakers, reported secondhand): Brian Simmons is described as having made on-camera claims about an "angel named Passion" giving him the translation, and separately, on-camera denials that he ever said this — a reported pattern of inconsistency/denial the speakers do not resolve, appropriately noting multiple possible explanations rather than asserting bad faith with certainty (~07:31). Bethel's institutional silence and non-retraction of Bill Johnson's "best thing to happen to Bible translations" statement functions as a passive form of denial-by-omission (~23:00). - **Attack**: Dusty reports charismatic peers responding to translation-accuracy concerns by attacking the critic's spiritual credibility rather than engaging the textual evidence — "you're so legalistic," accusations of "religious spirit," and "you're so ignorant... they all just insert their own opinions" (~50:30). This is attack-the-messenger behavior redirecting scrutiny away from the substantive claim. - **Reverse victim/offender**: weakly evidenced but present in inferred form — the official BSSM alumni group's rejection of posts raising TPT concerns, framed by Dusty as being treated as against "Bethel's values," functions as an institutional gatekeeping move that implicitly casts accountability-seeking alumni as the disruptive party rather than addressing their underlying concern. The speakers don't claim Bethel has explicitly called critics "the real victimizers," so this leg of the triad is present only in a soft, structural form (silencing-as-implicit-blame) rather than an explicit institutional accusation. - **Emotional cues and rhetoric**: the speakers' own emotional register (grief, "it hurts," "concerned and grieved") is directed inward at their own movement and past complicity, not weaponized against Bethel — a notable contrast to classic DARVO deployment, where the accused party typically manufactures this kind of anguish to redirect sympathy. This supports treating the speakers' own framing as comparatively low-DARVO-risk, though their evidentiary chain (see Logical Validity above) still depends heavily on an unshown external source and one unnamed secondhand claim. ## 🎯 Conclusion - The episode's strongest, most independently verifiable claim is the category argument: TPT is marketed and shelved as a translation while functioning, on the evidence presented, more like an editorialized paraphrase — a labeling problem with real pastoral consequences regardless of one's view on charismatic theology broadly. - Its weakest links are evidentiary transparency (the core textual comparisons live in an unshown external source, Minor Prophets) and a financial-motive claim resting on one unnamed secondhand source — both worth flagging for readers who want to cite this episode's specific claims rather than its overall framing. - Practical next step suggested by the speakers themselves: don't take the claim on faith — compare a TPT passage to a standard translation directly (as Dusty describes doing with friends using Logos), and raise the topic with your own pastor rather than relying solely on secondhand reporting, including this note's. - Cross-reference: read alongside the note for Bill Johnson's own defense of TPT (`4y2vtk_hjQQ`) for the fullest picture of claim vs. counter-claim on this specific controversy. ## 🔄 Refactor Appendix — Why This Bethel Alumni is Calling Out the Passion Translation ### 📚 Literature Atoms (H3) #### Bethel never retracted Bill Johnson's TPT endorsement > [!quote] ID:yt_pu4mxmGrHvo_1 > "I remember Bill Johnson he said that the Passion Translation is the best thing to happen to Bible translations." **Context & use**: - [19:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pu4mxmGrHvo&t=1170) - Directly cross-references Bill Johnson's own TPT-defense video (`4y2vtk_hjQQ`) processed the same batch — pair for claim/counter-claim. **Tags**: #xref **Highlight**: [view highlight](readwise://) <!-- atomicity: 1 idea ✓ --> #### TPT allegedly reverses glory attribution from God to people > [!quote] ID:yt_pu4mxmGrHvo_2 > "everyone was giving Jesus glory, and then Brian Simmons was like, No, it really said uh like, he gave glory to everyone." **Context & use**: - [08:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pu4mxmGrHvo&t=510) - Core textual example anchoring the episode's "self-centering" critique of TPT. **Tags**: #xref **Highlight**: [view highlight](readwise://) <!-- atomicity: 1 idea ✓ --> #### Candace Simmons describes an editorial, not translation, process > [!quote] ID:yt_pu4mxmGrHvo_3 > "There are many times where I was reading it and then I said, 'No, say it this way, it's better. You'll see it's better.'" **Context & use**: - [53:01](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pu4mxmGrHvo&t=3181) - Relayed via Minor Prophets; used to argue TPT's process contradicts its "translation" label. **Tags**: #xref **Highlight**: [view highlight](readwise://) <!-- atomicity: 1 idea ✓ --> ### 🧠 Permanent Candidates (H4) #### A resource's genre label sets its truth-conditions **Claim** (one sentence, Courtney's voice): When a religious (or any) text is labeled a "translation" rather than a "paraphrase" or "commentary," it invites textual-fidelity scrutiny that the other genres don't, so genre mislabeling is itself a legitimate ground for critique independent of content quality. **Evidence pointer**: [[#Bethel never retracted Bill Johnson's TPT endorsement]] **Scope & conditions**: Holds for any source claiming authority through a specific methodology (translation, peer review, primary reporting); breaks down if the label is used loosely/colloquially and the audience understands that. **Links**: - [[Bill Johnson Passion Translation defense]] — because contrasts on institutional accountability <!-- atomicity: 1 idea ✓ --> ### ✏️ Fleeting Queue - [F1] Cross-reference this note with the Bill Johnson TPT-defense video (`4y2vtk_hjQQ`) once both are processed — build a claim/counter-claim comparison. #xref ### → Things 3 - [ ] Compare one TPT passage against a standard translation (NASB/ESV) directly before citing the "glory reversal" claim further #things <!-- deep-read:sections end --> ## 📺 Video  ## Highlights - treat institutional pedigree as a starting heuristic, not a substitute for source-text comparison. - Note: 🔍 Fallacy: Appeal to Authority #fallacy/appeal-to-authority - Brian Simmons is described as denying, in some clips, ever claiming an angel named Passion gave him the translation — directly contradicting other clips where he affirms it, per the guests' account. - Note: 🛡️ DARVO: Deny #darvo/deny - critics within the charismatic movement report being labeled as having "a religious spirit" or being "legalistic" for questioning TPT's accuracy, which functions to attack the critic's spiritual standing rather than address the textual claim. - Note: 🛡️ DARVO: Attack #darvo/attack - the guests describe a dynamic where raising translation-accuracy concerns is treated as the aggressive/faith-undermining act, while the institution's continued promotion of a disputed product is treated as the neutral default — inverting who bears the burden of proof. - Note: 🛡️ DARVO: Reverse #darvo/reverse --- # 📝 Full Notes (Deep-Read Analysis) # 🏷️ Title: Why This Bethel Alumni is Calling Out the Passion Translation ## 🧭 Table of Contents - [📝 Summary](#-summary) - [📖 Main Content](#-main-content) - [🗒️ Notes](#️-notes) - [📚 References](#-references) - [🗣️ Paraphrase](#️-paraphrase) - [📰 Newsletter](#-newsletter) - [✅ Action Items](#-action-items) - [🧪 Hypotheses](#-hypotheses) - [📊 Methodology](#-methodology) - [❓ Questions](#-questions) - [🔮 Future Research](#-future-research) - [💡 Implications](#-implications) - [🧠 Learning Styles Assessment](#-learning-styles-assessment) - [📊 Accessibility Assessment](#-accessibility-assessment) - [🌍 DEIB Assessment](#-deib-assessment) - [✅ Logical Validity](#-logical-validity) - [🛡️ DARVO Analysis](#-darvo-analysis) - [🎯 Conclusion](#-conclusion) ### 🔗 References - Minor Prophets (YouTube channel) — video by David Fish that reopened scrutiny of the Passion Translation among charismatic alumni - Brian Simmons, *The Passion Translation* (2017 edition: Psalms, Proverbs, Song of Songs, New Testament) - Francois Du Toit, *The Mirror Bible* - Ellen G. White, Seventh-day Adventist devotional writings - Irenaeus, *Against Heresies* - William Tyndale, English Bible translation (16th century) ## 📝 Summary - Dusty May Taylor, a Bethel School of Supernatural Ministry (BSSM) alumna (2012–2015), returns to the Pastor and Wife podcast to discuss why she and other charismatic leaders are publicly retracting their earlier endorsement of Brian Simmons's *The Passion Translation* (TPT). - The core charge: TPT is marketed as a translation from the original Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic, but comparison against source-language tools (e.g., Logos Bible Software) shows inserted material, reversed meanings, and at least one instance of Simmons's own poetry embedded as if it were scripture. - Stakeholders: Brian Simmons (translator), Bill Johnson and Bethel Church (institutional promoters), BSSM alumni (both official and "unofficial" Facebook groups), the broader charismatic/continuationist movement, and lay readers who formed emotional and devotional attachments to TPT. - Risk: conflating "accurate translation" with "spiritual authenticity" trains believers to distrust either all Bible translation (skepticism) or to accept fabricated content as authoritative (credulity) — both outcomes damage the credibility of continuationist theology. - Bottom line: the guests argue continuationism (belief in ongoing spiritual gifts) can be defended through faithful biblical scholarship without needing a paraphrase falsely marketed as a literal translation, and that Bethel's institutional silence/ambiguity (pulling TPT from its bookstore, then restoring it) reads as evasion rather than correction. ## 📖 Main Content The conversation opens with Dusty May Taylor describing her own reversal: she owned an early (2017) edition of TPT, publicly recommended it, and later apologized on Facebook after a theologian friend showed her discrepancies between TPT and the Greek text using Logos Bible Software. The friend flagged the issue as early as 2015–2017, while Simmons was still selling individual books before the full translation was compiled. The hosts and guest draw a category distinction that anchors the whole episode: *The Message* by Eugene Peterson calls itself a paraphrase and is judged accordingly; TPT calls itself a "translation," which carries an implicit claim of fidelity to the source languages. The guests argue Simmons never actually translated from original-language manuscripts — despite public claims of doing so and of receiving revelation from an "angel named Passion" — and that specific verses were altered to invert their theological weight (e.g., a verse about people giving Jesus glory rendered instead as Jesus giving glory to people). They describe this as a recurring pattern of shifting emphasis from Christ's glory toward self-glorification, which they see as doctrinally significant, not a stylistic quirk. A parallel case, *The Mirror Bible* by Francois Du Toit, is raised as a more extreme version of the same failure mode — explicitly framing believers as functionally divine — which the guests use to argue that TPT's errors, while more subtle, may be more dangerous precisely because they are harder to detect ("the spy who doesn't look like a spy"). Institutional dynamics form the second major thread. Bill Johnson publicly called TPT "the best thing to happen to Bible translations," a claim the guests treat as either uninformed or willfully overstated, given there is no first-century Aramaic manuscript tradition matching Simmons's claims (the Peshitta, the actual early Aramaic textual witness, tracks closely with modern translations rather than supporting TPT's departures). The official BSSM alumni Facebook group has reportedly rejected multiple posts referencing the Minor Prophets critique or asking to discuss TPT, prompting the creation of an "unofficial" alumni group where the conversation is permitted. TPT was briefly removed from Bethel's online bookstore and restored within two days — read by the guests as evidence of internal disagreement without resolution, though they're explicit this is speculation ("Destiny's imagination," as one host puts it). Financial incentive is raised cautiously: TPT was originally sold as individual books, which multiplies revenue relative to a single-volume Bible, and the guests wonder aloud whether commercial entanglement (personal royalties, network-wide adoption via Bethel-affiliated churches) makes institutional correction harder rather than doctrinal conviction. The episode closes on pastoral and theological repair. Both hosts argue continuationism doesn't require an inaccurate translation to be defensible — citing Irenaeus's *Against Heresies*, which already argued against Gnostics who denied the Holy Spirit's ongoing work, as evidence that a rigorous, historically-grounded case for spiritual gifts predates and doesn't depend on modern paraphrase. They discuss the difficulty of telling someone their meaningful spiritual experience with a TPT verse doesn't validate the verse's accuracy, and propose redirecting emotional attachment toward faithful translations (ESV, NASB, NKJV, NLT) paired with study tools, journaling Bibles, and direct comparison exercises using Logos. ### 🗒️ Notes - TPT's earliest volumes (Psalms, Proverbs, Song of Songs, New Testament) were preached from at Bethel as early as 2012–2015, while the project was still incomplete — meaning the institution endorsed it before there was a full text to evaluate. - The claim of an "angel named Passion" delivering the translation is documented in multiple clips per the guests, alongside contradictory clips of Simmons denying he ever said this — treated as the crux of the credibility problem, independent of whether one holds a cessationist or continuationist view. - The comparison to Ellen G. White and Seventh-day Adventism is used analogically: extra-biblical writings elevated to "lesser light" status functioned in practice as the final word in doctrinal disputes, which the guests see as structurally identical to how TPT operates in charismatic circles now. - King James Only-ism is invoked as the inverse failure mode — an equally uncritical attachment to a specific English translation, treated by the guests as symmetrically irrational to TPT devotion, to preempt the charge that they're just being "legalistic." - The guests are careful to distinguish "Bethel is a cult" (a claim they reject) from "Bethel has unaddressed institutional accountability problems" (a claim they affirm) — an important nuance for accurately representing their position. - Pastoral strategy proposed for congregants emotionally attached to TPT: don't invalidate the described spiritual experience; instead ask whether the felt benefit depended on the specific (inaccurate) wording or reflects something true independently checkable in a faithful translation. - The women's ministry-school "BSSM alumni" community is described as unusually durable — people who left the institution 10–20 years ago still organize informally to hold it accountable, which the guests frame as an expression of ongoing love for the community rather than hostility. ## 📚 References - *The Passion Translation* (Brian Simmons) — primary text under discussion - *The Mirror Bible* (Francois Du Toit) — comparison case - Ellen G. White / Seventh-day Adventist canon status debates — historical analogy - *Against Heresies* (Irenaeus) — patristic source for continuationist argument independent of TPT - Minor Prophets YouTube channel (David Fish) — cited as the catalyst for renewed scrutiny - William Tyndale — historical example of translator scrupulousness ## 🗣️ Paraphrase - Dusty describes buying into the Passion Translation early because she trusted the relational chain of endorsement — her pastor, then Bill Johnson, then Brian Simmons's association with well-known charismatic leaders — rather than checking the translation against the source languages herself; only a friend with theological training raised the alarm. - Both hosts extend this into a broader argument: the problem isn't charismatic theology itself, which they think is scripturally defensible, but a culture that substituted relational trust and emotional resonance for textual verification, leaving ordinary believers unequipped to notice when a "translation" quietly stopped translating. ## 📰 Newsletter Bible geeks and WordPress folks alike know the feeling: a tool everyone loved turns out to have a footnote nobody read. This episode of the Pastor and Wife podcast digs into that exact moment for *The Passion Translation* — a once-beloved charismatic Bible version now facing serious, source-language-level accuracy questions. If you or your community leaned on TPT for devotional reading, this is a thoughtful, non-hostile walkthrough of why some former Bethel School of Supernatural Ministry alumni are quietly (and not-so-quietly) moving back to standard translations like the ESV, NASB, and NKJV — no drama, just Logos Bible Software and a lot of careful comparison. Worth a listen if you care about translation integrity, institutional accountability, or just want a good case study in "trust, but verify." ## ✅ Action Items #### DevRel - N/A — content is theological/ecclesial, not developer-relations relevant. #### OSPO - N/A — no open-source governance content. #### Community - Maintainers/moderators of any community-run alumni or affinity group: review whether critical-but-good-faith discussion topics are being blanket-rejected by moderation policy, and if so, clarify why (legal risk vs. suppression) to preserve trust — directly modeled by the "official vs. unofficial BSSM alumni group" dynamic in this episode. #### WordPress - N/A — no WordPress-specific content in this source. #### The WPCC - N/A ### FAIR - N/A ## 🧪 Hypotheses - H1: Congregants who primarily read TPT show measurably different beliefs about the locus of glory/agency (self vs. Christ) compared to congregants reading standard translations, when surveyed on parallel passages. - H2: Institutional ambiguity (e.g., removing then restoring a product without explanation) increases, rather than decreases, member suspicion of hidden financial motive. - H3: Communities that permit open critical discussion of a doctrinal/product controversy retain higher long-term member trust than communities that suppress the discussion, even when the institution is ultimately vindicated. - H4: Exposure to "translation fraud" narratives increases the likelihood that continuationist believers either move toward cessationism or toward doctrinally unmoored spiritualism, rather than toward a translation-literate continuationism. - H5: Financial structure (per-book sales vs. single bound volume) correlates with slower institutional correction of a flawed religious product. ### 📊 Methodology - H1: Controlled reading-comprehension survey comparing TPT-only vs. standard-translation-only reading groups on a fixed set of glory/agency passages, scored by blinded theological raters. - H2: Behavioral trace analysis (e.g., alumni-group post volume, sentiment) around the bookstore removal/restoration event as a natural experiment. - H3: Comparative case study across multiple religious organizations that have faced similar doctrinal controversies, coding for moderation policy and subsequent attrition/trust metrics. - H4: Longitudinal survey of self-identified charismatics following the TPT controversy, tracking theological self-identification over 12–24 months. - H5: Financial disclosure analysis (where available) correlated against time-to-correction across comparable religious publishing controversies. ### ❓ Questions - Why has Bethel's leadership not issued a unified public statement, given the volume of internal alumni concern documented over multiple years? - What specific textual criteria would Bethel or Brian Simmons accept as disqualifying evidence of mistranslation, if any? - Is there a documented, verifiable source for the "angel named Passion" claim beyond secondhand alumni recollection of clips? - How many Bethel-affiliated or HIM-network churches have formally adopted TPT for pulpit use, and does that number correlate with continued institutional defense of it? ### 🔮 Future Research - A systematic, published comparison of TPT against critical Greek/Hebrew texts (e.g., NA28, BHS) verse-by-verse, distinguishing paraphrase latitude from outright fabrication. - Historical research into the actual production timeline and editorial process behind TPT to establish whether original-language consultation occurred at all, and to what extent. - Sociological research into "unofficial alumni groups" as a broader phenomenon of parallel accountability structures forming around high-control or high-trust religious institutions. ### 💡 Implications - Practice: pastors using TPT devotionally should pair it explicitly with a formal-equivalence translation for doctrinal teaching, or discontinue pulpit use pending clarity. - Policy: religious publishers marketing a "translation" arguably warrant the same truth-in-labeling scrutiny as any consumer product claim, especially when sold to a lay audience unequipped to verify source-language claims. - Security/trust: institutions that suppress internal critical discussion (even for stated legal reasons) risk larger reputational damage than the original controversy, since suppression itself becomes evidence in the eyes of members. - Education: seminary-style textual literacy (even a basic "how translations are made" course) meaningfully inoculates lay readers against this class of problem, per both guests' own account of only catching the issue via a formally trained friend. - Funding models: per-book/per-volume sales structures for religious texts may create a structural disincentive against timely self-correction. ### 🧠 Learning Styles Assessment - Reading level estimate: approximately Flesch-Kincaid grade 8–9 (informal, conversational spoken register; short-to-medium sentence chains; occasional theological jargon defined in context). #### 👀 Visual learners - Present: none — audio/transcript only, no diagrams, charts, or on-screen text beyond the physical Bible shown to camera. - Improve: a side-by-side verse comparison graphic (TPT vs. NKJV vs. Peshitta) would make the core claim immediately legible. #### 🔊 Aural learners - Present: full podcast audio/video format; conversational back-and-forth models how to think through the issue aloud. - Improve: a condensed 3–5 minute audio pull-quote reel of the most concrete examples (the "gave glory" reversal, the inserted poem) would aid retention. #### 🗣️ Verbal learners - Present: extended analogies (KJV-onlyism, Ellen G. White, the "spy" metaphor) and defined terms (continuationist, cessationist, paraphrase vs. translation). - Improve: a short glossary distinguishing "translation," "paraphrase," and "commentary" would sharpen the core argument for newcomers. #### 🧩 Kinesthetic learners - Present: the concrete suggestion to open Logos Bible Software and compare translations verse-by-verse is itself a hands-on exercise. - Improve: a structured worksheet ("pick 5 verses, compare 3 translations, note discrepancies") would operationalize the episode's implicit method. #### 🧠 Logical learners - Present: the argument follows a clear chain — claim of original-language fidelity → absence of supporting manuscript tradition → specific reversed-meaning examples → institutional response pattern. - Improve: a simple timeline (2012 preaching → 2015–17 early volumes → 2017 full NT/Psalms edition → recent Minor Prophets exposé → bookstore removal/restoral) would clarify the sequence referenced non-linearly in conversation. #### 🧑‍🤝‍🧑 Social learners - Present: the episode itself models community processing — two hosts and a guest working through a shared, painful institutional history together. - Improve: pointing listeners to the "unofficial BSSM alumni" group (if publicly discoverable) would give social learners a concrete community to join. #### 🧘‍♀️ Solitary learners - Present: repeated invitations to personal reflection ("is it because I like what it says, or because it's actually God's word?"). - Improve: a short private journaling prompt set derived from that exact question would extend the moment into a self-paced exercise. #### 🌿 Naturalistic learners - Present: none directly applicable to this content. - Improve: not a natural fit for this source; omit rather than force a tie-in. ### 📊 Accessibility Assessment #### Screen reader semantics - Present: standard YouTube video/transcript structure. - Improve: publishing a formally captioned, chaptered version with speaker labels would materially help screen-reader and low-vision users follow a three-way conversation. #### Keyboard navigation - Present: standard YouTube player keyboard support. - Improve: N/A beyond platform defaults. #### Contrast and readability - Present: N/A (audio/video primary format). - Improve: if publishing a companion article, ensure body text meets 4.5:1 contrast minimum. #### Text resizing and reflow - Present: N/A for video. - Improve: any transcript republication should support 200% zoom without clipping. #### Media and captions - Present: unknown whether YouTube auto-captions or manual captions are enabled. - Improve: manual, speaker-labeled captions and a downloadable transcript would meaningfully improve accessibility, given three speakers overlap frequently. #### Forms and interactions - Present: N/A — no interactive elements in this content. - Improve: N/A. #### Standards reference - Gap mapped to WCAG 2.2 AA: 1.2.2 (Captions), 1.2.4 (Live captions if livestreamed), 1.4.3 (Contrast, for any companion text), 2.4.1 (Bypass blocks, for a written companion piece). ### 🌍 DEIB Assessment #### Cultural breadth - Present: references span North American charismatic evangelicalism (Bethel, Seventh-day Adventism, KJV-only fundamentalism) but stay within one broad religious-cultural sphere. - Improve: including how translation-fidelity debates play out in non-English-speaking or Majority World churches (where TPT is also distributed) would broaden the analysis. #### Inclusive language - Present: technical terms (continuationist, cessationist, egalitarian, complementarian) are defined in plain language as they're introduced. - Improve: a short glossary would help listeners unfamiliar with charismatic-specific vocabulary. #### Neurodiversity support - Present: conversational, non-linear structure with frequent topic loops back to the central claim, which aids thematic retention but may challenge strictly sequential processors. - Improve: chapter markers or a structured outline would help neurodivergent listeners track the argument's return points. #### Representation - Present: two women (Dusty, Natalie) and one man (Ansel) share speaking time roughly evenly; the discussion explicitly includes egalitarian/complementarian nuance without dismissing either view. - Improve: N/A — representation within the scope of this episode is balanced. #### Psychological safety - Present: guests explicitly validate listeners' past attachment to TPT and their real spiritual experiences before challenging the translation's accuracy — a notably careful, non-shaming framing. - Improve: an explicit content note at the top ("this discusses institutional criticism of a church you may attend") would help listeners self-pace emotionally. ### ✅ Logical Validity #### Strong reasoning - Historical-analogical reasoning: invoking Irenaeus's *Against Heresies* to show continuationist theology has an independent, ancient scholarly lineage — strong because it decouples the theological claim (gifts are real) from the disputed artifact (TPT), refuting the implied dichotomy that you need TPT to believe in the gifts. - Comparative case reasoning: contrasting TPT with the more obviously aberrant *Mirror Bible* to argue TPT's subtlety makes it more, not less, concerning — a defensible a fortiori argument (the harder-to-detect error is the more dangerous one, all else equal). - To clarify further: a citation trail to the specific Irenaeus passage referenced would let listeners verify the analogy themselves. #### Fallacies - Appeal to authority — early trust in TPT is explicitly grounded in Simmons's association with Bill Johnson and Che Ahn ("I trusted Brian Simmons cuz he knew like Bill Johnson... Che Ahn") rather than independent verification. Fix: treat institutional pedigree as a starting heuristic, not a substitute for source-text comparison. - Loaded language / thought-terminating cliché — critics report being dismissed within the movement as having "a religious spirit" for raising translation concerns, a label used to preempt scrutiny rather than engage the specific textual claims. Fix: require the objection to be answered on its textual merits, not recategorized as a spiritual deficiency in the objector. - Unverified/hearsay evidentiary claims — the "angel named Passion" claim rests on secondhand recollection of clips rather than a cited, timestamped primary source in this conversation. Fix: link the specific clips when making the claim publicly, which the guests partially acknowledge by name-dropping Minor Prophets as the sourcing party. #### Tone of voice - Predominantly reflective and pastoral rather than accusatory — hosts and guest repeatedly qualify claims ("this is Destiny's imagination," "I don't want to focus on Brian Simmons personally"), signaling deliberate restraint despite the seriousness of the allegations. ### 🛡️ DARVO Analysis - Deny: Brian Simmons is described as denying, in some clips, ever claiming an angel named Passion gave him the translation — directly contradicting other clips where he affirms it, per the guests' account. - Attack: critics within the charismatic movement report being labeled as having "a religious spirit" or being "legalistic" for questioning TPT's accuracy, which functions to attack the critic's spiritual standing rather than address the textual claim. - Reverse victim/offender: the guests describe a dynamic where raising translation-accuracy concerns is treated as the aggressive/faith-undermining act, while the institution's continued promotion of a disputed product is treated as the neutral default — inverting who bears the burden of proof. - Emotional cues/rhetoric: repeated appeals to how "beautiful" and emotionally resonant TPT's language is are used (by the broader movement, not by the guests) to short-circuit accuracy concerns — an appeal-to-emotion move the guests explicitly try to separate from the truth question ("is it because I like what it says, or because it's actually God's word?"). ## 🎯 Conclusion The episode's bottom line: *The Passion Translation*'s core defect isn't that it's poetic or devotionally moving — it's that it markets itself as a faithful translation from original languages while containing demonstrable insertions, reversals, and at least one instance of the translator's own poetry passed off as scripture, and the institutions that promoted it (Bethel, BSSM) have responded with ambiguity rather than a clear correction or defense. Practical next steps for listeners: cross-check any devotionally significant TPT passage against a standard translation (ESV, NASB, NKJV) using a tool like Logos or BibleGateway's parallel view; support open, non-punitive discussion spaces where institutional concerns can be raised; and hold continuationist conviction on independently defensible scholarly grounds rather than on any single disputed text. --- # 📄 Full Transcript *Auto-generated from YouTube captions · timestamps roughly every 30 seconds · [watch on YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pu4mxmGrHvo)* **[00:02]** Hey, what's up guys? Welcome to the Pastor and Wife podcast. >> We welcome you to hang out with us today. >> I'm Ansel. >> I'm Natalie. >> Okay, we have a very special guest that's been on twice and she's one of our favorite guests. So, let's bring on Dusty May Taylor. What's up? >> Hey guys. >> [laughter] >> Good to have you back. >> Yeah, it's good to see you guys. Been a bit, couple months, few months. **[00:34]** >> And we moved into a new house. So, it was a blessing and a curse at the same [laughter] time. >> Yeah, congratulations. >> Thanks. It's just just a lot of work, that's all. >> [laughter] >> Moving is a nightmare. Let's be real. Nobody likes moving. >> [laughter] >> And this is like a fixer-upper, too. So, it's like, okay. >> much. >> But it's bigger. Good for our four kids. You know. All right, so we're going to talk about the Passion **[01:04]** Translation since the Minor Prophets channel with David Fish. Oh, you have one. >> Yes. >> [laughter] >> It's beautiful. >> Is that one of the earlier editions? >> Yeah, so we are thinking this says 2017. I think that's the first time they came out with this. So, this is Psalms, Proverbs, Song of Songs, and New Testament. And obviously I have one because I was all over it. I was like, this is great. It's like nice poetic, faithful to the original language, **[01:36]** really capturing the spirit of the scriptures. I was so excited. I feel so dumb. >> [laughter] >> And I I like repented I like apologized on Facebook when I Yeah, I posted about it. I was like, if I recommended this to you guys, I am so sorry. Yeah. >> Yeah, a lot of us feel that way. I'm I I'm guilty of that, too. Now, I never preach from that just because I thought it was more of a paraphrase when I first read it. >> Yeah. >> Um but I thought, "Okay, well, this was **[02:07]** an honest attempt to make a Bible with like fivefold spirit-filled language, right?" Um but uh one of our friends, I'm not going to mention his name, he's he's a theologian. He called me up and and he said, uh "I think this was 2015-16, really early, somewhere around there, maybe early 2017. And he goes, "Hey, you guys aren't using the Passion Translation, are you?" I'm like, >> Um >> Uh **[02:37]** no, I I haven't bought all the volumes cuz he was selling the books, you know, individually before. >> The individual books. Well, our pastor was using it and his wife especially just really loved it. Yeah. >> Yeah. That was before we >> Yeah, it is very poetic. It was before we started our own church. >> Mhm. >> And so I didn't I trusted my our pastor and his wife at the time. And I trusted Brian Simmons cuz he knew like Bill Johnson, >> [laughter] **[03:07]** >> Che Ahn. Um >> Yeah. >> So, I'm guilty of I I, you know, saying it was nice to read. >> [laughter] >> But um after my my friend called me, uh he showed me some of the uh epistles by Paul and you know, we'll go to Logos Bible Software and compare the Passion Translation to the actual Greek. And uh man, there's stuff in there that's not in the Bible. **[03:38]** >> Yeah. And like I think Minor Prophets did a really good job of explaining why it matters in this case. Um cuz people will often be like, "Oh, this is such a religious spirit." And we've really come up against that in the charismatic movement, especially as um I don't like the term deconstruction. I like the term reconstruction. Some others coined that and I'm like So, a lot of us are reconstructing our theology just to make it stronger. We're not like walking away from the Lord, and it's not legalism. The problem is the Passion Translation, **[04:08]** like it's called the Passion Translation. It's not called the Passion Commentary. It's not called the Passion Paraphrase. Like none of us are here saying like the message is evil. We would say, "Oh, the message is a really really um expanded paraphrase." Like that's what it That's what it says it is, and it's helped a lot of people who just kind of want to understand scripture from a storytelling perspective. We all know it's not for and it doesn't present itself as for study, right? **[04:38]** And then, you know, you've got there's the NLT, there's NIV, there's ESV, there's NKJV, there's the old King James. You know, there's there's all these Bibles, and we know that there are little differences. But nobody is out here being like, "There's only one Bible you can use." Um the problem with the Passion Translation is that he said it was a translation that he had translated from the original language, and it's very obvious now that he didn't translate it from any original language and inserted stuff that is just partisan theology. **[05:09]** Yeah, that makes me feel really bad because I still believe in the gifts of the Spirit and what God's doing on the earth, and I do want people to learn about that, but this is like bringing us like two steps back. That is exactly right um because you can come to you can come to a continuationist theology using rigorous scriptural study. Like there are serious theologians and serious Bible scholars who would affirm the gifts of the Spirit, that the Holy Spirit gives **[05:40]** gifts, and then um you know, prophecy and healings and miracles and things like that. And you know, if he gives you a gift and you pray for somebody you may see a miracle. You may receive a word for some like there are serious scholars who believe that and affirm it and can defend it using an accurate Bible translation and accurate understanding of the historical context but because this is what's popularized now even continuationists who understand **[06:11]** that this was actually a fraudulent work right he just copy pasted stuff and like put stuff in and made stuff up and an angel gave me this and no no now it wasn't an angel yes it was an angel no it really wasn't an angel but it was an angel like and so now even some of them are going to be like oh no like it's true that the gifts are not real we have to make up a fake Bible like and they might think that all their beliefs are wrong >> Right. It doesn't do the body like the charismatic movement any good to pretend **[06:41]** that you need a fake translation to affirm the gifts of the Holy Spirit. It's in the actual Bible correctly translated. >> Right. And and for our audience I'll go ahead go ahead. >> Sorry that's just not that's not really a perspective that I had considered before and I and now I'm like wow I you're right I mean people will think that we have to make up our own you know version of scripture in order to be correct and and you're right it's **[07:13]** it's not true at all so I wonder why he even felt the need to like I don't know there needs to be a new translation of the Bible. >> Yeah well it's it's not that's the that's where it gets kind of spooky to be honest like a lot of people I think are wrestling with it and the more the minor prophets researched and the more they saw him say and the more they compared what the Bible says to what he had put in the Bible, the more it kind of became eerie. **[07:44]** Like, did he really have a spiritual encounter? Like, there's all these clips of him saying an angel named Passion came to me and gave me this. Um so, people are accusing it of being like the Book of Mormon now, right? Like an angel came named Passion. And then there's other clips where he's like, "No, that never happened. I never said that." But there's a million clips of him saying it. So, um there there are multiple reasons why a person might contradict themselves. So, I don't want to focus on Brian Simmons. Um but, let's say he did have an encounter with a spiritual being, and it **[08:16]** caused him to create scripture where there's like a theological slant that is really uncomfortable. Like, I've had I have this trouble cuz I'm in connection with a lot of alumni. Um like, we have the unofficial alumni group and things. And people will be like, "Oh, you're so legalistic. Like, there's nothing wrong with him saying this." Um like, so one of the things that got changed is um when it said like uh everyone was giving Jesus glory, and then Brian Simmons was like, "No, it really said uh **[08:48]** like, he gave glory to everyone." Everybody's like, "Whoa, that's so" But there it's like repeated There's this repeat thing of like amplifying the glory of man and like the glory of self and like self-will. And it's like repeatedly done. And so, you're removing from people's Bible study all these places where Jesus is glorified and where we learn to see ourselves as smaller and him as greater, which is actually very restful. Um and then you're you're almost teaching people to make themselves God. And you don't need **[09:18]** that to be a continuation. It's like, that's not that is not what charismatic belief is. Charismatic belief is not we are God. Yeah. So, what's he doing? And why is he doing it? I don't like it. >> [laughter] >> So, I've been telling people just don't use the Passion and get the word out there. Um Bethel's not listening to anybody and that is also uncomfortable. So >> Right. Right. Like I've noticed what you're saying is a lot of these guys like the Mirror Bible, uh Francois Du **[09:49]** Toit, um >> So weird. >> Oh yeah, I had to um actually give my my input from from a you know another church who the pastor's my good friend >> Yeah. >> and tell one of his ministers not to use that Bible because it was very man-centered versus God-centered and it it was so weird cuz um there were funny funny it's called the Mirror Bible, right? Like the whole premise of the Bible is >> Narcissist. **[10:19]** >> Yeah. Yeah. I'm like I'm so much like God. >> Yeah. >> You know, it's all about me and then when you when you you know told us about you know the the Passion Translation saying that instead of giving Jesus the glory, he gave glory out it was the total inverse of what was actually written. I was like maybe this is a this is a thing like narcissists seem to find a way to get to people to believe them, you know? And **[10:51]** I'm not saying for sure like Brian Simmons is that. I don't know. Um it's just by reading some of this stuff and I just saw um minor prophet saying he inserted his own poem into the scriptures that he wrote. >> Yeah. That's so cringe. >> I was like I would be so scared to even think about doing that. You know? >> Wow. >> Cuz if if if the Bible's the word of God, this is what God is saying I don't want to change any of it. **[11:23]** >> No. No, not at all. And I I don't understand I kind of understand cuz I've been part of the culture like um, and you know, I've done a lot of processing the last few months and I'm like, no, I'm definitely still a continuationist. Like, I It It's just all the the dark stuff in the error. I don't want anything to do with and I kind of understand why people like think this is okay. >> Yeah. >> But, at the same time, it's not logically consistent with our stated beliefs. Like, so continuationists, right? The charismatic church, it's all **[11:54]** about helping people to know that God is really with us. Like, that's the emphasis. It's not deemphasizing Jesus. It's just, um, we really have wanted people to know like the Holy Spirit is with you. Um, right? Christ is is with you. Christ in us. Um, we want people to know that, um, we can co-labor with God. You can minister to the sick. You can help people to know how much he loves them. Like, that he is that you're not alone in it. It's not just all in your own strength. But, the goal is not to make people feel like it's all up to me and God is not sovereign. And it's not to **[12:26]** make them And it's not to make them, um, unhinged from scripture. So, if you want people to know how to hear the voice of God, they need the most faithful plumb line, like the most faithful standard as possible. So, we really should be the people who are the most fanatical about accurate Bible translations. And, you know, if there's, um, like word for word versus thought for thought and different schools of thought, we should be the ones who are like, let's be familiar with the **[12:58]** arguments for both. Like, maybe let's have an NLT and an ESV >> Yeah. >> and a New King James. Like, maybe let but make sure they're faithful. >> Mhm. >> And make sure believers know as closely as humanly possible what God intended to put out there. And make sure we know as as accurately as possible how the culture influenced that. >> Mhm. >> Like, it should matter almost more to us because we're the ones who want everybody to be able to discern the voice of the Holy Spirit. >> Right. >> Like, you've got to know how he speaks. **[13:29]** You can't just know how Brian Simmons speaks and then expect to be able to discern the voice of God. And who the heck is the angel passion? >> I don't know. [laughter] >> Is this a demon? >> I don't know. >> Like, honestly, working matters. >> Oh my gosh. Yes. >> I just like Guys, is this a demon? >> [laughter] >> I think that should matter to us. >> gosh. Yes, it should matter. >> You know. I have heard charismatics who are my dear friends say that uh since we have the Holy Spirit, we can't be deceived **[13:59]** anymore. And I was like, well, that's a deception. >> Yes. [laughter] Why did the Holy Spirit write all these, you know, through men, like in the epistles? But why did they all these warnings about like keeping deception out of the church and making sure your heart is not deceived and you're not self-deceived? And why is it in there? Why did Jesus in the book of Revelation have to warn and correct the churches if they could not be deceived? Like, they were obviously deceived. Right? And this is early church. This is not like we've had 2,000 years of bickering and **[14:30]** squabbling and [laughter] industrial revolutions and cultural reformations and like So, of course we need we need to be cautious. Right? And the demons are real thing. [laughter] I hate sounding like kind of woo-woo, but um like we're warned about deception for a reason, right? And antichrist spirits. So, guys, charismatics, I'm like, please please stop. Like, please stop being so reckless. It really worries me. >> Maybe we should get back to the basics, **[15:00]** like what does the Bible actually teach, you know? >> [laughter] >> Yeah. Yeah, well, and I don't want to pretend that um I don't want to pretend that the secondary doctrines are simple. >> Mhm. >> So, like I I do think cessationism is wrong. Like um I told you before I was reading through Against Heresies, right? Like my favorite my favorite book now. Do I still have it sitting here? Look, it's always on my table. It's so funny. >> I love it. I've now finished it, um, but I have to read through it again because **[15:31]** like you Oh, there's just so much to chew on. >> Yeah. >> But like in there even against Harris, he talks about, um, how there were Gnostics who, you know, denied the working of the Holy Spirit. So I do feel like all cessationists, there's there's something, um, there's something there that I think is a pretty clear error. But there's also excesses in the charismatic movement. >> Agreed. >> All right, so I don't I don't want to pretend like if you have an accurate translation all these these secondary matters become **[16:02]** really simple. The secondary matters really don't become simple. Um, but at least you can have faithful, like good faith arguments that are founded on something real. >> Yeah. >> Instead of getting out into like the clouds and fairyland. That's just like, um, that is not that is not helpful to anybody. Um, >> That's true. You know, for me, I I think the reason why I wasn't bamboozled any further than I was was I come from a history of a **[16:33]** prophet writing books that people considered all right there with scripture. So I used to be a I used to be a Seventh-day Adventist and the church's founder, Ellen G. White, was considered a prophet and an angel was reciting stuff to her to write. >> Oh my. >> So very similar. And, you know, um, she at least she didn't >> call it scripture though. >> No. No, she didn't. She said >> her own books and she and she never **[17:03]** refuted scripture. >> No, she didn't, but her followers said that, uh, you know, the Bible's the greater light and her books were the lesser light, right? >> Like brand new lights kind of. >> Yeah, yeah, almost. Yeah. Uh the only problem was whenever we had an argument about scripture, the last word would be a a quote from her books, right? >> That's what happened with this. Yes. >> I know, right? So, isn't it crazy? >> [laughter] >> Isn't it crazy how these things keep **[17:34]** coming back? Mhm. Um so, you you went to school at Bethel, you graduated what? You You told us 2015. >> 2015. Yeah, I was 2012 to 2015. >> So, did they teach from it? >> Um yes, it was it was preached from at that time. Um so, it was still not complete. So, I remember there being kind of this like, you know, this hopeful trusting buzz in the air. Like, oh, Brian Simmons is working on the Passion Translation and, you know, it's going to it is going **[18:04]** to remove these partisan errors that religious institutions have imposed on the word of God, and it's going to be more faithful to the original Aramaic. It's going to be more faithful to the spirit of God because, you know, there's been all these legalistic, partisan translators who have, you know, been imposing like a box on the Holy Spirit and just really really concealing the true meaning of the scriptures from us. That is I'm expounding, but I'm telling you this this was the vibe. Like, this was **[18:35]** This is what we thought. We thought we were getting something that was going to help restore God's original intention. Um in the church. And so, um the first ones that were preached from and taught from it were the first ones that were published. So, as soon as as soon as they started coming out, Bill for sure would preach from them. And like, Bill was Like, a lot of us who now are not completely confident um in Bill's suitability for leadership, especially on a large scale, are very surprised to **[19:06]** find ourselves in that position. I can't tell you how much we trusted Bill. And how So, >> [laughter] >> and then when this came out, like, I was very quick to get it. Um I think I I probably got it when I um had a big life change. I I thought I was going to be able to stay in New Zealand and ended up back in Canada and was and I think I was like, oh I just really need something's like I need my Bible reading to really encourage me about God's heart for me. Like you know, I was in the kind of a place of pain and I'm like I love my New King James. Um my granny **[19:36]** was Baptist so you know >> Yeah. >> NIV and KJV like I never actually let go of that because of Baptist granny, God bless her. But I was like I really need I need this right now, you know. >> Wow. >> So yeah, this was 2017 I got this. >> 2017. I remember Bill Johnson he said that the Passion Translation is the best thing to happen to Bible translations. >> Like that is a wild statement. >> Oh my gosh. Um **[20:07]** when I heard that I I kind of it was a check in my spirit cuz I trust I was in the place where I was uh subscribed to the Bethel podcast and whenever Bill Johnson was preaching I'd listen to all of it. >> Yes. >> And I believed it and >> Yes. >> when when he said that and then knowing what I know that there is no Aramaic one Aramaic thing and you know, we have the the Peshitta but that was later on. It wasn't like a first or second century uh document in **[20:39]** Aramaic that he translated from, right? And like knowing that the Peshitta reads almost exactly the same as our modern translations and then Bill Johnson [clears throat] said that I was like I don't know what to think anymore. I don't know what's happening. >> logically inconsistent. Like >> [laughter] >> Like there's some things that just don't make sense but you have to be educated to know that. All of us who were not like um you know, seminary trained and hadn't don't have friends who are theologians warning us and like we **[21:13]** we had no idea until people like Minor Prophets like started digging into it and >> Mhm. >> and letting us know like God bless them because >> Yeah. >> we want we actually love the Lord. >> [laughter] >> Yes. >> We actually want to believe what God actually wants us to believe. We don't want to be deceived, so. >> Yeah, and I I I remember when we were we Natalie Oh, no, Natalie, you didn't go. I I went to a similar school of ministry. Uh, but for luckily for us, we had like **[21:45]** actual theologians kind of overseeing some of the stuff, right? So, and he was one of them, the friend that called me. Um, and what was crazy during that time was we used to kind of like make fun of like people who went to, you know, the normal seminary uh, Bible school. And now that I look back, I'm I I thank God that I have have friends and and people around me uh, that push me in the right direction. I'm going back and **[22:15]** actually doing studies that a normal seminary student would be doing because of all the charismatic excess. Like I am like, "What are we doing here? I want to do what God says, but I don't want to go above and beyond what he says into something that he doesn't even want us to do, right?" So. Uh, it's insane that that they didn't retract like Bill never retracted that statement. >> This is I don't know what Bethel is doing, and **[22:48]** it might be pulling in multiple directions for all we know. Like it it just seems like there's a stance The reason I say it might be pulling in multiple directions is I have a hard time believing that out of all of the leaders at Bethel there aren't a significant number of them who are like, "Guys, like just bashing their heads against the wall." Like, "Guys, please, we have to issue a statement about this. We can't be pushing this It's not real translation. He committed outright fraud, or he's a little >> [laughter] >> I'll say he struggles. >> Yeah. **[23:18]** >> But it's really it's really hard not to come to the conclusion that it's fraudulent. Like whatever his struggles, it is still fraudulent. >> Yeah. >> And it's misleading people and Like I'm sure there has to be people who are But you're not hearing from them from within Bethel. Like it's this eerie silence. Like it's this constant monolithic response. It's like you're waiting for the official statement. And are we supposed to believe and assume that all the leadership there are are in line with whatever statement comes out or fails to come out? Like I don't believe that. I think there has to be **[23:48]** There has to be some disagreement. And I think that's substantiated by the fact that it was removed from the Bethel online bookstore, the Passion translation. >> Right. Right. Yeah, like a bunch of us and there was much rejoicing. >> [laughter] >> Yeah. >> like, "Yay!" Um, they don't want charismatics to see. Two days later, they put it back up. >> What? >> And so I'm like >> Yeah. >> Is it like there somebody played the hero, or like somebody with some authority over the bookshop was like, "Look, we're not going to put this up right now." And then somebody higher up was like, "Look at people rejoicing. **[24:20]** They think that this is a statement that we agree that it's not good." I'm honestly I'm This is what I This is Destiny's imagination. >> Yes, yes. >> And Angel Passion did not tell me this. >> [laughter] >> Um, and so like they they were like, "Put it back." Um, that's what it looks like from the outside. And I can tell you the the official BSSM alumni group which it's wild that there's so many of us, and we haven't been there for 10, 15, 20 years, and we are still this committed to our sense of community that we just like continue to care and continue to try to course correct it. **[24:52]** But we're trying to post in that group and just like so many people have tried, "Hey, can we discuss Passion Translation?" Post rejected. >> No. >> a link Here's a link to Minor Prophets video. Minor Prophets are alumni. Um here's a post like to their video warning us that this is this translation was not what we thought. This is an alumni group. We're grown adults who were like commissioned and sent off to be leaders. Post rejected. Um I've got three pending posts. I'm probably just a banned. I'm probably just [laughter] not allowed to post anywhere. **[25:23]** >> last last time we were talking but I thought you were one of the admins. >> No, I admin the unofficial group. We had to start our own. >> the official >> Yeah, so I Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I um along with a couple of other admins, um some people are really busy and it's not super high traffic right now. We have the unofficial BS alumni >> Okay. So the official >> talking about is the official group. It's not allowed in the official group. The one run by Bethel. >> So where was moderated that heavily? >> Oh yeah, well at one point they shut it **[25:54]** down completely um because we were having conversations that they did not approve of um which were not sinful. They were about accountability and correction and um they were like, "No." Um [laughter] Well, and there was legal reasons. I should be fair. >> True. True. >> So um but then they started it up again, but since then it's been very heavily moderated. You cannot have a conversation about anything like the elephant in the room is like yeah, under a rug. >> [laughter] >> Wow. Yeah, so I'm surprised they they they **[26:26]** didn't let you talk about the Passion Translation though because I mean, we I don't I don't under I I don't see any other group like if we want to, you know, have a debate by about King James only versus modern translations. Like that's okay, right? Uh why can't we do that with the Passion Translation? >> That's a great question. I would really like to know their answer. What Like why can't we why can't we discuss the Passion Translation? Like is how is **[26:57]** that against Bethel's values? >> Yeah. >> How? How is a conversation about accurate scriptural translation um and this has been promoted like they have a Bethel version. >> I saw that. >> version and then >> he apparently wrote something like a 20-page forward. Um >> Oh, no. >> And so is it kind of like they have they are one with it? Cuz like and I would just say I would just really encourage them like any Bethel **[27:28]** staff and please rethink this stance because when you decide that you are going to die on the hill of a fraudulent Bible translation that all the other continuationists and all the other all the scholars, you know, they're all soundly warning you um across denominations and you're like, "No, this is the hill we're going to die on." Now when people call you a cult, >> Mhm. >> they have a little bit more of something **[27:58]** to go on. Like it starts to seem a little bit more valid. Um don't be culty. Like [laughter] you're not a cult. I have I have never been one of these people who says Bethel is a cult. I think it's full of errors that need to be cleaned up, but we're seeing so many charismatics clean up their theology. Um it Bethel should be amongst them is my my like it's not actually that hard. But they're making it really hard and yeah, stop being culty. >> [laughter] >> I agree. **[28:29]** >> Really. >> Yeah, I mean yeah. >> I feel like they should have their their proof statement like, you know, "You guys can discuss this here, but this is the statement about what Bethel believes and this is why we believe that it's a faithful, accurate translation, then then you could just say that, right? >> Of course. >> And let people disagree and then come back with, you know, "Well, no, this is why these are the reasons why we think why we believe that **[29:01]** this is accurate and this is why we use it." I mean, it's it's simple, right? >> Yeah. Well, which and that makes me think, what if the problem is they don't think it's Like, what if they know it's not faithful and accurate, but the real answer is we don't care because we think it makes it better. Like, we think even though it's not faithful and accurate, the things that are not faithful and accurate are are getting it better. Like, what if That's my fear. I'm like, what if that's the answer? >> Um or maybe you're right. Maybe they are **[29:32]** Maybe they are um in disagreement and they can't come up with that statement, you know? I don't know. >> Yeah. Yeah. No, that makes sense. They can't make a statement because there's no uni- unity around it. Um >> Yeah. I I think that might be like Occam's razor, right? That might be the case. Like, there's no unity around it. That's why you saw it removed from the uh bookstore and then added later on, right? Cuz when you made that video, I was like, I'm it's like I'm taking crazy **[30:02]** pills. Like, what is going on? >> Yeah. Well, but Natalie's right though. In that case, why not allow the alumni also to discuss it? >> Yeah. You know, I >> group. >> [laughter] >> It's a fine group. It's fine. I I just I just my my concern is that it was a big money maker for Bethel. Um especially for Brian Simmons. That's My theologian friend, he he said to me in 2017, I think, he goes, "You know, I don't **[30:33]** want to be that guy because we're taught to believe the best about people, retrieve the gold instead of the sin cuz the sin is obvious. That's what we were taught, right? >> Yes. >> And I was like, that's true. And he goes, yeah, but I can't I can't I got to get it off my chest. And I'm like, what is it? And he goes, this is a huge money-maker if you're you're you're selling every book of the Bible by itself. >> I know. >> And I go, oh my gosh, I hope that's not true. But at the same time, now fast forward, **[31:05]** you know, almost a decade later, I'm like, I I hate to be that guy. I just what if they're so married to it because they've uh made so many gains in finances, you know, uh churches down here that are part of the HIM as well, like they use it. Uh Ahn's network, and I'm like, uh what is this could like destroy all these networks of people, you know? Just as time goes around. >> That's actually really heavy. **[31:37]** >> And yeah. >> you're not wrong, either. That's what makes it worse. Like, at some point, right, the simplest explanation is probably the correct one. Um and so, looking at monetary gain as a potential motivator in all this is not unfortunately it's not unrealistic, but it's really hard on the heart. >> It is. >> Because like, I think people people on the outside of the church sometimes don't understand. **[32:08]** I get this sometimes on YouTube. They're like, oh, you Christians are always and it's like, >> [laughter] >> but we're not apathetic. Like, we actually there's a love for the body of Christ. And when you're around believers who really also love Jesus, and you get in that group, it's it's indescribable. >> Right. >> that connection that kind of transcends demographics and like cultures and and everything else. And so, you're looking at your at your people. Like, this is it's the family of God. >> Yeah. And you're like **[32:39]** oh my gosh, what are you doing? And please tell me that you're not actually like not a brother or you haven't fallen away or you're not hurting the people under your authority. Like it's so it it hurts. And I think that's that's part of why people just are like la la la like stop talking about it. >> Mhm. >> But we have to talk about it. We have to. >> [laughter] >> That's a natural reaction of people, right? When when it's scary and they know it's going to hurt, they want to get away from it. Like if I have to get a shot and I hate needles, like I'll do **[33:10]** everything I can not to go to the doctor until it's like a completely necessary. >> Yeah. >> You know, I was I want to be fair though. Like I'm not saying people are just like on yachts and having parties. >> No. >> Right? I'm cuz I I understand cuz we have friends with bigger churches. There's a lot to pay for. You're you're actually giving other people a living. >> That's right. >> And if you get boxed into this thing where it this **[33:40]** gives you revenue so that other people can eat, it's easy to justify like just keep selling it, you know? Um >> Yeah. Well, then we should speak to that. Like one thing that came to my mind as you said that is isn't it significant then that when Jesus was talking about, you know, not fearing mammon, right? >> Mhm. >> It was in the context of like basic survival. It wasn't even in the context necessarily of wealth. Like you see the widow's mite and it's like she gave everything she had to live on. Like **[34:11]** don't worry about bread. They're like, "Oh, do more miracles." Cuz he's like, "Yeah, you just want food. Like [laughter] you don't have you don't want to have to worry about your daily provision anymore." And he's like, "That's not the way." Um and so maybe maybe we really need to maybe we need to like recount the cost of our faith in a way. Um and have those hard discussions with with the community. Like if you've got a bunch of staff under you. And I mean they've had to do layoffs. Like we We've seen announcements. There's been lots of layoffs and stuff. >> Mhm. >> Um but I feel like having to do layoffs **[34:44]** because you're refusing to do the right thing is like way worse than having to do layoffs because you correct yourself and you do the right thing. Like if you do if you just do the right thing, the blessing of God may pour out. That's one of the most frustrating parts of it. >> Yeah. >> But they're they like Like it's like pulling teeth. Like people say, "But they did this and this. What more do you want?" And it's like, well >> [laughter] >> maybe Bill shouldn't go preach alongside Kenneth Copeland and Benny Hinn. Like maybe that would be a step. If you're not going to at least come out and warn **[35:15]** people these aren't faithful people to follow. >> Right. >> Maybe we should say something in about this Passion Translation thing where people are potentially hearing another gospel that's teaching a different Jesus. That That's the extreme possibility of the Passion Translation, right? >> Yeah. Right. >> Um Yeah, it just really bothers me. Um >> Yeah, I agree. I mean it's not as bad uh again to be fair as the Mirror Bible cuz that one teaches you that you are **[35:45]** God basically. >> It's so bad. [laughter] >> Yeah, it's really bad. >> talked experts of it. Um it was actually because of the Passion coming out that then I went on that bunny trail and I was like, "Oh, that's really bad." >> [laughter] >> Yeah. I was like, "This is not even Christian. This is like new age or something." Um >> Mhm. >> But see, yeah, I'm trying to be fair. Now, the Passion Translation doesn't go that far, but it does take so many liberties uh instead of like making God the focus, then it's you, right? And I do understand there are some people I've **[36:16]** run into who uh um like the Passion Translation have that way of thinking. Like >> Yeah. >> faith is about me. It's not about giving to others. Yeah, I know and it's weird. >> In the charismatic movement, too. Like it's it's really pronounced and it it can with some people get to the point that you feel like like maybe I'm not actually talking to some like a brother or sister in Christ. Like there are cases where it's that extreme. Um and I was like as you were speaking about oh, the Mirror Bible's **[36:47]** way more obvious. Like you read it and it's like this is new age. But does does that make it maybe does that make the Passion worse? Arguably? >> Maybe. Maybe more dangerous. >> [laughter] >> Like what's What is actually worse? A spy who's really good at going undercover or one who's like really obviously not who they say they are? >> Yeah, exactly. >> What's actually more dangerous? It's the one that you receive and invite into your home, right? The big bad wolf who doesn't look like a big bad wolf is a lot more dangerous um than the one that's got freaking giant ears and fangs **[37:17]** hanging out of grandma's clothes. >> Yeah, that's [laughter] true. That's true. >> Right. >> Um >> Yeah, that's a great point cuz uh an obvious spy is not a spy at all, right? Like >> Yeah. >> It's it's it's it's weird because uh you know, I I I broke the bad news last Sunday or two Sundays ago, sorry, at church and there were audible gasps, you know, in the congregation because they love it. >> I know. >> And I I felt so bad for doing it. Like **[37:49]** it's like if I if I it felt like I was breaking a promise to one of my kids, right? That's how I felt up there cuz I said guys, I I I I can't hide it anymore. Um I know some of you use the Passion Translation but it's fraudulent. Uh a lot of it's plagiarized and Brian Simmons put his own stuff in there, his own poem and you could just hear like you know, like and they were like I can't believe it. I don't I don't know what I'm going to do. **[38:20]** So you know, I was like I have a whole bunch of Bibles. I got a New American Standard, [laughter] English Standard, NLT. Uh there's a lot and you know, I just >> me. >> Yeah. >> I'm just going to show you what I did. I I'm laughing because I totally understand. So, when I watched the the Passion Translation thing, because I'm also artsy and like and I hadn't touched the Passion Translation in years. Like honestly, it was like collecting dust on my bookshelf, thank God. But I went out and got this illuminated **[38:51]** Bible, which is an ESV. >> That's nice. >> Well, yeah, and it's it's got like all these like pretty illustrations and things in it, right? And like big margins, so you can like art journal and >> Oh, that's great. >> And I was showing people and I was like, look, you get yourself a beautiful Bible and it's a faithful translation. Like this one's ESV, I have NKJV as well. You can still like you can you can reflect on it and create your own poetry, guys. Like a lot of charismatics are really artsy. This is this is the true thing. Like you can you can art journal, you **[39:22]** can reflect, it's tactile, it's beautiful. Ooh, smell the pages. You don't need Brian Simmons' like inaccurate, fraudulent work to connect to the Holy Spirit. The Lord might might speak to you more um through something like this. Like it's just really and beauty does honor the Lord. Like there is something to that. Um you know, and but it was the same to me. I feel like I'm trying to like it's like, no, we can't go to Disneyland, but here uh we'll install a swimming pool. Like [laughter] it's **[39:53]** >> Yeah. >> You're trying to But that's kind of sad that it's like, how can we possibly love a real Bible? Like that's concerning probably. As a pastor, did you find that kind of disconcerting? Did you just find that a question? >> Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I just I knew we our people are man, I love our people and they are that. They are very artistic and they love beauty and the Passion Translation I'll admit it's beautiful writing. **[40:23]** I admit it's it flows and it and it and it satisfies that thing in my heart where oh yeah, I'm I'm proud to be a spirit-filled believer, you know? Um but when I when I see the truth I I have to, you know, just say this is painful but I have to be honest because that's what God actually wants. And to break the news it's it's it was scary because I you know, as pastor I want my my whole job is to get people to **[40:55]** listen to me, you know what I mean? [laughter] And trust me. And that was the struggle I had with, you know, God. I said, "God, okay, now they're going to they're not going to trust me, you know, cuz all the big names in the the charismatic uh world love this Bible and who am I here in this little church saying that it's not good to use and and I felt the Holy Spirit say it was okay. He says, "Do what you need to do cuz it's the the truth and I'm about the truth and **[41:25]** you know, my word says that the Holy Spirit is the one that leads all people to all truth so I'm working through you." So I felt good after that but I really had to pray cuz I was scared. >> Well, it's scary cuz you also worry um like one of the things that's like been nagging at me slowly. You know how that happens? Like you start to just have this like nagging worry? >> Yeah. >> One of my nagging worries is yeah, that in this all this exposure in the schism like I worry that there's people who **[41:56]** will just say, "Well, well actually then I don't care about the accurate Bible cuz because it's it's like lost the spirit of God." Like what if they just What if they just choose the wrong or or what if people are like, "So everything that I thought was God wasn't God and that thing that you're saying is God Like I don't like it because they don't understand like scriptures that sound really harsh that Brian Simmons like glosses over and lots. >> Yeah. >> Some of them actually do take contextual understanding for you to know like no, it's describing a situation. **[42:27]** That's not God saying God's not saying we should commit genocide. That's It's it's descriptive. It's not prescriptive. That the Bible's it's that does not and you have to explain stuff to them, right? Like >> Yes. >> Um the scriptures about women. There's actually scripturally rigorous ways to come out egalitarian and complementarian views. >> That's true. >> Um that's true. >> Right? >> Yes. >> And but there's people who'll be like, oh, so you're saying that misogynistic Bible that teaches genocide is the only real one? >> I got that, too. >> Then maybe they'll be like, I don't want **[42:58]** anything to do with it. But it's because but it's because there's a real necessary work of explaining to them why like that's that's not really what the Bible is saying and it has to be explained. It's not simple. Um so I'm really worried. I'm worried that charismatics will just start to reject scripture. Um I'm egalitarian and I worry that there's going to be women who come out and they're like, I either have to you know, I either have to go all hard complementarian or I just become a **[43:28]** progressive and I embrace a whole slew of things that are actually anti-biblical because I think that anti-biblical understanding is the only way to like see men and women as equal. And that's not true. You can actually arrive at it from So I'm just really worried. Like attacking people's trust in scripture is really serious. Like Brian Simmons should fear God. >> Yeah. >> Bill Johnson for promoting this like he should fear God cuz there's a there's a domino effect. This is I'm on a soapbox. I'm really worried. **[43:59]** That's all. >> Yeah. >> Yeah, I know and you're right and that that's that's the extreme danger of something like this is that it claims itself as scripture and people are very like emotionally attached to it as scripture. >> Yeah. >> And it's dangerous because when you tell them that it's actually not accurate scripture then I mean it's like **[44:30]** why do you blame them for for loving the Bible, you know? The only thing is they don't know that's not the real Bible. >> That's exactly right. >> Like how you separate the two. So that's what you're saying I think. >> No and like what you're saying too touches on a lot of them have had prayer encounters. That's another whole So they they're like no I've encountered God through this work. Like the Holy Spirit has affirmed this work to me. And so now you're also causing them to question the **[45:02]** witness of the Holy Spirit in their life. It starts to cause you to have to question your own discernment. I've gone through that wrestling and I'm now like I know that I have an ability to be deceived. >> Okay. >> And you have to start picking through and who wants to do that? Who wants to be Well, but while I was reading the Passion, this verse you say is bad, God really heals my low self-esteem. Right. And they're like that was definitely the What do you say to them? And this is like an open question. What do you say? Well, maybe God in his mercy used this **[45:34]** maybe Maybe sometimes there's another spirit at work that is leading us all towards narcissism also. Like [laughter] and and then it's like there's healthy scriptural ways to have strong self-esteem. You don't need But what do you do with that spiritual sense and that emotional attachment to the Passion translation? Natalie's got a really good point. That's really hard. >> Yeah, it's really hard and I I suspect I'm going to have to deal with it soon because of the news, right? >> [laughter] **[46:04]** >> But it man, the only thing I can think of is actually if there's a verse there or passage that healed a person, um I would go to one of the other translations and and see if they can get healing from that, you know, like if if Brian Simmons wrote a translation, then another translation shouldn't be far off. But if it is and there's like this emotional contradiction in someone, I think that's where I need to lead them **[46:36]** to. Is this it is it because I like what it says or it is it because I like what it says because it is actually God's word, you know? What is the what is the focus of me being healed because I like it or it's actually God's saying something that healed me, right? So, I don't know what else to do except for that. >> Well, there's got to be This is really good. Now, you you got me thinking. Is there a way to like teach and lead people like okay, **[47:06]** like not ignore it cuz it Natalie's right. They're emotionally like this is they love it and it's tied up to their love of God. Like they feel like my love of this is actually like my love of the Holy Spirit because the Holy Spirit has spoken to me. So, is it like you have to say um let let's let's write down the encounters you had while reading the Passion Translation. Let's look at what the Lord spoke to you in that. Let's look and see amongst these if is there anything that actually contradicts a faithful Bible? Or is most of it **[47:39]** like this lines up with an accurate Bible interpretation. The Lord would have spoken this to you with a faithful translation and right understanding anyways. Like do we actually need to teach people though? Um so they don't get this panic and not have a It's like they're I just feel like yeah, maybe they're just going to like if I let go of this I'm lost and what do I do with all of this? And that's a lot for most people to process. >> It is a lot. I I think now that you're talking about and we're kind of extrapolating more, it it seems like **[48:10]** uh the same pro- processes if someone made something an idol, you know? >> Wow. >> Because if if you need the Passion Translation to connect with God, to feel his grace, to have life change, and no other Bible will do, I it's kind of like the same when I run into my friends who are like fundamentalists, King James only, right? >> Oh, wow. >> Cuz they use the same arguments like the Holy Spirit spoke through through me through the KJV 1611 and every other **[48:40]** translation is from Satan. They They tell me that. And NIV was written by lesbians. They tell me that. >> Wow. >> So, >> I'm sorry. [laughter] >> Yeah. They tell me that. >> Okay. >> Yeah. >> [laughter] >> They tell me that. It's insane. Well, to be fair, there was one translator that had lesbian type of lifestyle. I don't know if she's still that, but there was like 30 of them. So, her work **[49:10]** was checked in the NIV. So, it's trustworthy. Um >> Yeah. Everyone's got sin that they struggle with. >> Absolutely. Absolutely. So, I mean >> There's probably some alcoholics too, guys. >> Yeah. I wouldn't doubt it. >> Yeah. >> [laughter] >> I think I just have to do the same thing. I go to my friends like can I get a new King James cuz they think that's the one they think that's the worst cuz it sounds a little like the old King James. >> It's that spy thing. It's a good spy. **[49:41]** >> Yeah. Yeah. I just go, "Hey, is this verse saying something different than the King James?" >> That's really great. Yeah. >> And then I go, "Can we Hey, you want to come over or look at my laptop? I got Logos Bible software. We can look at the actual original languages. >> That's so wise. >> Why don't we do that? Cuz your King James was, you know, translated this way and my Bible's translated this way. Let's go look word for word. >> You're so smart. Sorry, I'm getting excited because I've had people I've had **[50:12]** people say to me, um yeah, well, all these Bible translations say wildly different things. The Passion is just they're all just as bad as each other. And what you're saying is the truth. Like no, they're actually not all that wildly different. >> Mhm. >> And the areas where they differ, there's usually a footnote acknowledging a different way it can be translated. >> Mhm. >> You've had panels of scholars and generations of them who have just tried to make it as faithful as possible using different, um, like translation like techniques. Um, but they're but it's **[50:43]** very rigorous and it actually doesn't say wildly different things. >> All right. >> Um, it all is actually lower case or Orthodox Christianity. Well, the charismatics I'm talking to don't know that. One of the biggest pushbacks that I get from fellow charismatics is, you're so ignorant. You don't know that they all just insert their own opinions. >> Well, >> They're like they all do that, Dusty. They all do that. They're all There's people making up parts of all these Bibles because they're and they're saying it's because I'm ignorant that I don't know that. But **[51:13]** they actually are unaware. >> Yeah. >> Uh, that isn't true. All these different translations I agree we probably have more than enough English translations, but people they're passionate about the word of God. So they just keep on trying to make it more clear. That's all they're really trying to do. >> That's okay. >> They're really excited. >> [laughter] >> I I I just did a, uh, sermon on William Tyndale. A Bible >> father of the English Bible translations. Um, now, he wasn't the first. It was John Wycliffe the first. **[51:45]** Uh, but they they killed all his followers, right? So, 100 years later, Tyndale came in and I was telling my my people, our church, look at these guys. Like, one of the quotes uh of William Tyndale is like, and I'm paraphrasing here, he said that, you know, may I be cursed if one, you know, iota of of difference uh from the original that I put in this Bible into English, right? Like, he was saying like, just kill me if I if I if I mess **[52:15]** this up. >> Wow. Like, fear of God. >> Yeah. Yeah, that's the level. Like you said, yes, the level of fear of God and the the love of the accuracy of God's word and and trying to communicate that to someone from a different language was so important to them. >> Mhm. >> That Wow. There's no way that these guys were like, "Yeah, let me just insert my opinion here, [laughter] you know what I mean?" >> Yeah. >> They just didn't do that. >> Yeah. Well, and that touches on um what the Minor Prophets were saying about how **[52:48]** like there's clips where Brian Simmons' wife, Candace, says, "There are many times [clears throat] where I was reading it and then I said, 'No, say it this way, it's better. You'll see it's better.'" And she's like, "Eventually, he saw that it's better." And that's how I became his co-translator. And they played that and they were like, "This is not an attack on on Candace. Um this is not like this is not a complementarian thing. Like, this is We're just saying, 'Look at that flippancy.'" Mhm. Like, this is That's not the fear of the Lord. That's not scholarly translation. That's **[53:18]** very much like, "Here's my idea and you'll see that it's better than what the Bible originally said." >> [laughter] >> Like, that's not >> better, I mean, why better is such a strange word to use when you're writing a translation. I mean, [laughter] please correct me if I'm wrong. That clip is in that latest Minor Prophets episode. Maybe Maybe it'd be good for us to check that to make sure I'm not misquoting her, but I believe the actual word she used was it's better. >> It's better. Huh. **[53:50]** Cuz translations [laughter] That's not what a translation is, though. Like >> Yeah, it should be faithful. The word you should be looking for is it's more faithful to the original. What were you going to say? >> I I mean, the thing that I go always go back to is why couldn't he have just written like a book. >> Yeah. >> Like this is what This is what I think the Bible's saying or something and not call it a **[54:20]** translation. Right. Because we can say beautiful things to describe the book of Psalms or just to say like this is my prayer phase of Psalm 23 or whatever. >> Yeah. >> And it that could really encourage someone and the Lord and that could be not evil and you know, like that could be the Holy Spirit speaking of like this is what I think, you know, this is what it means to me. >> Mhm. >> But the fact that he calls it a translation just completely messes everything up because **[54:52]** then now it is totally wrong. >> Yeah. >> Mhm. >> That's true. He could have just been an artist. Like maybe he's an artist. >> Yeah. >> Right. Maybe he's a poet. Like we're all And then like we said that there's so much of that in the charismatic stream and I think that's great. We should be human and love art and beauty and relationships and you know, not not dismiss emotion. Um you don't want to be hyper emotional. Like emotions are not the Holy Spirit, but >> Right. **[55:22]** >> but you can't then take that and make it make it heresy. >> [laughter] >> RIGHT. >> YOU HAVE TO BE honest that this is an expression of like your own humanity. That And maybe that's humility, Natalie. Maybe it's like >> Mhm. >> Maybe that was a lack of humility. Like not understanding that this is an expression of an artistic expression of you as a fallen human. This is not an improvement on the word of God. >> I agree. >> You can't improve on the word of God. >> [laughter] >> you can't. **[55:54]** Yeah. That means you're better than God. >> [laughter] >> Uh well, but then that takes us to that uncomfortable flavor of where the where stuff is inserted and changed where it's like elevating man in like this Gnostic way um that's very uncomfortable. It's not spiritually safe. >> Like Yeah. >> And like what do you do if you get somebody who is saved um and like they have a predisposition towards wrestling with pride. Um and so on. Like how are how is this **[56:26]** going to sanctify them? Like what And then this reminds me earlier um I know this is a long combo. I hope I hope we're okay for time. >> We're good. We're good. >> Okay. Um I was Yesterday I was watching um somebody sent me a clip and this will seem like a but it's it's on topic. They sent me Jonathan Pageau talking about AI. >> Okay. >> that he asked as a Christian, like he's an Orthodox believer, he said, "Why aren't we asking who does it serve?" >> Okay. >> it serve? And I think um when you're looking at **[56:57]** the Passion Translation and some of these things that are like hills that charismatics are trying to die on, >> Yeah. >> um it's like but who does that serve? Like so who does it serve that you have a Bible that makes things easy that doesn't offer correction to our character. >> Right. >> does God actually want the scripture to be? Like one of the purposes of the word of God is to help us become sanctified. Like he's always trying to grow us. It's a journey of becoming and it's not a journey of becoming **[57:27]** um a god. It's not a journey of becoming um completely free of insecurity. Like it's it's not a journey of life becoming easy and never having struggle. It's a journey of sanctification. It's becoming Christ-like. Like >> True. >> Christ didn't have it easy and he had to make really hard decisions and becoming Christ-like requires correction. Like it actually requires wrestling with things that are hard to understand um, **[57:58]** and going through pain. And it's kind of just like it's almost like being drugged. It's [laughter] what you know. Like it's almost like being anesthetized. Like let's just let's just go to sleep and be comforted and I'm doing this because of my cat is here. >> Oh, man. >> Trying to get in the camera. Yeah, like so but who's that serving to to lull everybody and to make it easy. Like then are you going to grow? >> Right. >> that serve if believers are not growing? >> You know, this is kind of I hate to use **[58:29]** the word cancer, but I'm going to use it anyways. It's like a cancer in the charismatic community, right? Like I remember uh, 2 Corinthians like 7 says 7:10 right here. Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death. Um, >> That's right. Yeah. >> Yeah, if if we remove sorrow from the Christian experience, um, how are we going to know what Christ went through and become like him, right? **[59:00]** >> Um, I remember I was I was corrected in these circles when I said, "You know what? Some of this mission stuff is really hard." You know, [laughter] like just the, you know, not just the travel, but the frustration of trying to share the gospel with someone from a totally different worldview, totally different context. Um, everything's different. The food, the way of life, the way of thinking is different. And somebody corrected me and said like, "No, you know, we should find joy every and everything." And you know, **[59:32]** I accepted that because we should. But then I think they went too far and and say, "Hey, you know, there's no there's nothing that should ever make you sad." And I was like, "Wait a minute. Wait a minute." What if I asked them, "What if I sin?" >> Yeah. >> Shouldn't that make me sad that I chose to do that? Cuz that's not God's fault. He didn't make me do that. And then they go, "Well, you know, I don't know, but you should just uh you should just not think about it or whatever, you know?" And I thought that's such a disservice **[60:04]** to especially like new Christians. >> Yeah. >> We should have an account of our life and go, "Hey, you know what? This area really needs help." And I do agree that we shouldn't live in shame. But sometimes shame is good to like wake us up. >> Yeah. >> Tell us we're in the wrong place, you know? Like the GPS. >> Yeah, no, exactly. Like there's a standard um that we might actually not be **[60:35]** all the way raised to. But I like I don't mean that as like a shame bringer. >> Yeah, yeah. >> just I had this conversation with a friend recently where I said, "Oh, do you know what? Like somebody said something actually really awful about you." >> Oh, okay. [laughter] Okay. >> Um And I was like like and it wasn't true. But I thought about it and I was like, "Hmm, is there like any truth in it? Like is or did I um did I present something in a way that like wasn't helpful to people?" >> Okay. >> I said to her, I'm like, "You know what? **[61:06]** Like I think they they're like yeah, they they have issues. Like whatever. But having taken the time to reflect, there's a couple areas where I could do better." And I was like, "I'm just I'll just I'll do better." >> And she was like, "Oh." >> [laughter] >> What >> her. She's awesome. And she was like, "Oh." Like you know, she thought like I was in shame. Oh, she thought you were in shame. She's like I pray the Lord reveals to you like it's not about trying harder and doing better. And I was like if I didn't know that I could grow and that I could like like continue to like please the Lord **[61:37]** more and >> Yeah. >> Like if I didn't know I could become better, like kill me 20 years ago. [laughter] I Like seriously, like where's the hope in that? >> Um >> Yeah. >> Repentance is great. Like repentance and and growth are >> Yeah. >> are beautiful. That's not shameful. We're human. Like do we think that we should be perfect? Like do we think that everything we think and imagine and declare should come to pass or or do we know that we're human and God is sovereign **[62:08]** and we have to like repent and grow. We're on a soapbox. >> No, we're on a soapbox, but this is important because the passion translation does kind of lead us away from that type of thinking, right? Um if everything I declare comes true it does nothing for my character. >> No, you're like a toddler. >> Yes. >> Like it it creates immaturity in Christians and deception. >> Mhm. >> Like and it is full of that and that is something we really need to crack is **[62:39]** this idea um and it puts so much responsibility on us. The minor prophets mentioned that. Um I was thinking about it like oh my gosh, then people they think we I declared this thing and it didn't come to pass, but the Bible says every word that I say in Christ's name will come to pass. It didn't, so now the Bible's not true. Like people could fall away from the Lord. >> Oh no, for real? >> No, it will this this really hard. It's really like I've been through this where all the words that you know, I I would imagine something or **[63:11]** have a dream and you think it's God and then you've got these things teaching you like yes, you're you're a co-laborer with Christ and that means, you know, your desires will come to pass, your declarations will come to pass, and it's not true. Like, you bump up against reality. And then you have to decide, was I wrong or is God a lie? Like, did I misunderstand reality and like what a relationship with God is like, and did I not actually hear accurate prophetic words? Was I wrong? Or is it all nonsense and I'm going to go become a Wiccan or like an atheist, **[63:44]** which people do. >> Oh, I see. >> So, there's that and then the other problem the minor prophets mentioned is it also puts this burden of responsibility on Christians where they're like trying they're like, if things go wrong, I must not have faithed it enough. I must not have declared enough. >> Oh, okay. >> And um and they burn out and they get exhausted. And that's like people who get sick, right? And there's camps where they're like, well, you never say you have cancer. >> Oh, I know. >> You say, I'm healed in Jesus' name, and **[64:15]** they just think that reality hinges on them. So, >> Mhm. >> I just say that to say it's not all benevolent. Like, it's not all feel good. There is actually a dark side to being propped up and thinking that you're God. >> Mhm. >> Yeah, cuz then, you're right, the the disappointment of things not happening the way you want it um is devastating. I mean, I can't even imagine if I were to think that way uh where I where I would be. I mean, like, I've gotten you know, when uh **[64:47]** when people have traveling ministries and prophets and they're people come and they give you words and stuff. I got I got a lot of you're going to preach at stadiums, which is a common one, come to find out. >> [laughter] >> I think I got that. >> Yeah. Um But, I did get to preach at a stadium over here at the LA Coliseum. >> Hey, maybe the internet's the new stadium. Maybe that's what it meant. >> I know. [laughter] >> That's what the prophet would say, NATALIE. >> YEAH. I KNOW. MAYBE. I [laughter] don't know. **[65:17]** But >> It's just your interpretation that's wrong. >> Yeah, it wasn't See? >> [laughter] >> But I I believe maybe that was partly true because, you know, you didn't see it say how many people cuz it was like a smaller event and I was totally happy. I was like, "Well, here it is. Come to pass." But, you know, I'm not a famous guy. I just got this opportunity. Um and I loved it. And and people received the word and it was good. And people got baptized after. So, it was cool. >> Awesome. >> But it wasn't the whole stadium wasn't **[65:47]** filled. It was just a very small fraction of the outside. >> Right? >> real time. >> Right. So, if I if I banked on the word on how I interpreted it in the a narcissistic way, right? Like me preaching in front of a hundred thousand, you know, eighty thousand people or something. >> Yeah. >> I would be disappointed. Like there's something wrong with me or the Bible, you know, this whole, you know, spiritual gift stuff isn't real. That was a false prophet. And I was like, you know, trying to be fair, I said, "You **[66:19]** know what? Maybe that was it, you know? And there's better things coming in the future." Um so, I'm not I I tried to teach people to be healthy about like prophetic words or a revelation that they get cuz I still think those exist. It's just I think we are so self-absorbed that it must look a certain way or else it wasn't God or, you know, I'm a worm. I'm a failure type of thing, right? >> Yeah. >> So, I think I think a lot of the words do **[66:50]** come to pass. It's just not the way we expected to come. I mean, that wasn't >> That wasn't that was not true for me and a lot of my peers. >> Oh, really? Okay. >> I'd be Uh so, BSSM, like this is a BSSM specific testimony. Like >> Okay. >> like every word was like not true. >> [laughter] >> OH, WOW. >> A LOT OF THEM WERE LIKE THE OPPOSITE of what happened. >> Oh, no. >> Like seriously. Um very very And I still believe God speaks. It's just that it's caused me to understand how much nonsense is out **[67:22]** there. >> Right. >> Another possible Another thing you could have done >> Mhm. >> you also could have meditated on that word and decided that you need to spend your savings renting a stadium because it was going to be like the next great revival. >> gosh. >> Like you could have You could have come up with a marketing plan. You could have been like, "Wow, what path would bring me there?" Like maybe it's not this little local church. Like maybe I should be thinking bigger. God's saying I should Maybe you would have like disrupted your life path if you had really if you had felt an emotional witness that you thought was **[67:53]** the Holy Spirit. Like how could somebody What What impacts could a word have on somebody's life if they really believe it? >> Right. See, that's dangerous because that means that you trusted in in a specific, you know, I I hate to say it interpretation of the prophetic word you got. Uh I mean, we're we're talking about the Passion Translation, and that type of like when you read it, that type of language is all over the place in the Passion **[68:23]** Translation, right? That green vigor. Uh you know, if it's not >> Declare it and it will come to pass. >> come to pass. If it's not that big, then it's not of God, right? And I'm like, "How How do we know that?" Like some of the little things were recorded in the Bible, right? Like the widow's mite. >> The widow's mite. >> But it became a huge thing. Later on, did she know? Probably not. >> Yeah. >> And I think Yeah, you know what? I keep hearing I think we need to get the narcissism **[68:55]** out of charism- charismatics, right? >> Wow. >> church because it's always about better and bigger and more people and and um more TV stations or something like that, but what about just simply leading someone to Christ like maybe your >> your brother or your sister that are unbelievers. That has eternal impact. But it it's not seen around the world and you're not seen as some magic person, right? I don't think God, **[69:25]** you know, wants us all to be like these like super famous people. >> That's really, really good. I I can riff off that. >> Yeah, go. >> narcissism thing. One of the thing one of the things I think that's happening with Bethel refusing to um reject the Passion Translation. Maybe it's monetary. Maybe it's they just invested too much, whatever. >> Yeah. >> But one thing I think in the movement is actually that that hubris. Is that narcissism and pride where there's been this this thing of like **[69:56]** less we need to make sure we hang on to what makes us special. Like we need to hang on to what makes us different from all those other churches. And even the continuationist churches, they're just they just aren't quite there. Like they just don't they're not quite as passionate for the Holy Spirit. Let's be real. >> I see what you're saying, yeah. >> one of the things that makes them different is no, like we have this translation like um and it becomes this kind of and a in a lot of this reform like it's **[70:28]** not just the Passion Translation. It's like, well, we're not going to we're not going to clean up our ecclesiology um and become more like all you other churches. Like we're not going to let go of um you know, a fivefold understanding as a hierarchy rather than just gifts. We're not going to let go of that. And we're not going to let go of the Passion Translation um and just become like all of you guys with this more We're not going to submit to all of this like theologically rigorous understanding and give up XYZ. Like we are different **[70:59]** and these are the ways that we're different and the ways that we're different matter. And I'm just like We're Christians. We're supposed like it's the things that make us the same that are actually the most important. It's our devotion to Jesus. It's Jesus Christ having died for us and saved us from our sins. Like it's that there's going to be a resurrection. It's that It's that we share the gospel with our neighbors and love one another. We all have more or less the same Bible. I understand there's some differences. Um **[71:30]** like there's apocryphal books the Catholics have like the Orthodox have things a little bit different. But by and large we all have or should have the same Bible. >> Yes. >> You don't need a your own special Bible. Like we're not special. Like we're just and we don't need to be special. Yeah. I think I think we struggle with that. >> [laughter] >> Right. Right. I the whole identity thing um I think is is the big issue, right? Cuz **[72:00]** I remember being taught like you really need your identity in Christ or else your your gifting or your talents or you're going to take that as identity and it's a false one. But what you're describing is pretty much the same thing. Like if if Bethel's hanging on to what makes them special instead of being a church where you know what? We shared the gospel and people got saved, you know. And >> Wow. >> Uh maybe maybe that's part of the reform. I don't know. And I I I love all **[72:31]** the the people over there. I learned a lot from Bethel and there are there are good things I learned from Bethel. Don't get me wrong. >> Yeah. Like the way I treat people off the bat, right? Assume that they're good or uh what do you How do they say it? Um Believe the best. Yeah. >> Believe the best. >> Yeah. I think I use that all the time and it has not failed me Um because you know, sometimes people just they'll betray you or hurt you. But I was not wrong to try to believe **[73:01]** the best about them. >> Yeah, and I mean that comes from Corinthians. They didn't really >> [laughter] >> Oh, yeah. That's true. >> But yeah, but they do but they emphasize it and it's good it's not a bad thing to emphasize. >> Yeah, it's not a bad thing. But like trying to differentiate from all the other churches out there and saying like, "We're the flagship of charismatic churches, right?" >> And it's just like needs humility. >> Yeah. And I'm not saying like maybe they were at one point in time because God I **[73:32]** I believe God blessed them to grow. Um they were very brave in their history to you know, restart over there up in Redding and and have like I believe like some of the miracles that happened were were amazing. >> Yeah. >> I I didn't I didn't think all the miracles were true, but hey, the ones that were true I I believe yeah, I believe God did it and it was awesome. It's just that if we I think having a Bible translation because Bibles are the **[74:04]** the the foundation of our faith, right? Like faith comes from hearing and hearing of the word of God. >> the word of God. >> Yeah. Um if that's changed, everything gets messed up. Um I just I don't see any other way around it and I hope Bethel says, "You know what? Uh we had like a administrative uh conflict or something and you know, it was the we took it off and then somebody put it on and you know, I hope, but I don't know what's going to happen. **[74:35]** >> You've triggered a thought. Um can I just say it briefly? I know I've been talking so long, but when you said identity, my like an alarm went off in me and I I was thinking one of the things that you hear lot in the charismatic movement and Bethel definitely taught it was like it's almost like original sin was not understanding that you were already like God. Do you know Do you know this? And I >> Okay, yeah. >> This is really common and they'll say, "Do you know where sin comes from?" And it's like it becomes it comes from not **[75:05]** knowing your identity. Sin just Sin just means you don't know that you're already like when the serpent said like, "No, God when you eat the fruit it'll just be like God." A lot There's a lot of teachers and I heard this at Bethel. >> Okay. >> They'll say, "Well, the reason why she fell is cuz she didn't realize that she was already like God. Like you were already in the image of God. That's sin." Instead of teaching that disobedience is the sin. >> [laughter] >> Oh, right. Right. Right. >> That's That is That was the sin. But, if **[75:36]** you look in here that's kind of the emphasis so it's instead of instead of teaching us to be obedient and submitted it's like, "No, we are going to overcome um the original source of all sin which isn't pride. Pride is not like a root of sin and disobedience and rebellion are not the root. The root is actually you didn't know you were ALREADY LIKE GOD." >> I MEAN, >> [laughter] >> if you said it that way that's kind of like new age, too. >> That is very much like new age. Christ consciousness. >> Right. You didn't know [clears throat] **[76:06]** you were already a god or something? >> Yeah, you just need to realize it and >> Yeah. I mean, to be fair I've said something like that because I understand that um it was kind of like a funny thing that happened like I'm not trying to make light of sin, right? I'm just saying like they were already so close to God, right? They were already talking to him in the garden and having a you know, one-to-one face-to-face relationship with God and then they fell for the you'll be like God thing, right? Which **[76:37]** is funny because yeah, they they already had a relationship with God. but it's the same sin that Satan fell to. Like he was already with God. He was like this the best angel. And then oh, I want to be God. So, I think >> It wasn't enough >> Yeah, it wasn't enough. Their position where God placed them. Oh, we want to be more. Right? >> Mhm. >> And it is pride. You're right. That is the thing that gets everyone. And **[77:08]** I hate to say it, but not not correcting is pride. Right? >> Yeah. >> Not correcting the record and helping other people. Yeah, not repenting. It's pride. >> Mhm. Oh, that was painful for me to say. >> I feel the pain, too. That like I think what you just said is true and so it it's like painful cuz that is what that comes down to. I was I was seeing the disobedience. But you're right. It's not it is disobedience, but it's also **[77:39]** >> actively wanting to be like God. >> Mhm. >> Like in disobedience like you're deceived, but that is also >> But that is also pride. It's that thing we keep on circling in this conversation and that makes my heart feel really like like concerned and grieved and ick for our movement. Like we >> Yeah. >> We all we really do need to repent. Um >> Yeah. >> Yeah, I and I repent for just like even **[78:09]** thinking some of these things before. Maybe in a in even in a slightly wrong way, right? Um and it does feel bad and but I think it's healthy. >> Yeah. >> When you know, I'm I'm getting a little bit older and I have to I have to repent for this. Like I don't always go to the doctor right away. >> [laughter] >> Oh, I'll get through it. I'll be fine. And I know Natalie, you're like you're laughing inside cuz you know I [laughter] do this. Um but I need to like you know get **[78:40]** check-ups and and so I I I had this feeling you know when I was I hey I pray for Bethel Church I pray for the charismatic church. During those times I was praying I I felt like it was a similar situation like the leaders of the charismatic church we should say hey maybe we should go to the doctor a little bit more often. >> Wow. >> Hey let's get a check-up. Is our theology okay? Like am I going too far in this or is this teaching slightly off **[79:10]** and I know I'm going to get the pushback. Oh you're being so legalistic. You're you're a you're like a Calvinist now. Um but I I do [clears throat] think we should be rigorous in our theology. And >> Yeah. >> it's just it is the way it is. >> That's really really good. Yeah. He needs to go to the doctor. That's right. >> Yeah. >> He's the great physician right? >> [laughter] >> Yeah and it's not the healthy who need a doctor it's the sick. Like that even lines up with Jesus own words. >> Mhm. **[79:40]** >> Um and then not realizing that we might be the sick. Like always thinking we're the always thinking that we're one with the physician and not identifying with the sick. >> Boom. See? It is very narcissistic to think 100% of the time we are one with the physician. >> Yeah. Ah so much need for it's good though it's healthy. >> Yeah. >> We need this. >> Wow. Wow. I mean it's this is good. Uh man uh Dusty you are such a gem you know like just to come on here and **[80:11]** >> Like a random person who will just say things that I don't really have any right to be saying. >> [laughter] >> No we're processing and you know we're not saying like we're we're creating the bar for theology or uh church reform or anything like that. We're we're we're honestly talking about what's on our hearts and what we think and we could be wrong. So, we're open to correction. Um but honestly, what we think could help the church be better. Like >> Yeah, that's good. **[80:42]** >> Like actually better, not just let's make the Bible better. >> [laughter] >> Yeah, and then people's lives can be changed in a way that's lasting, like enduring and meaningful and of eternal value, right? Like not the house of straw. >> Mhm. >> Right? Not the house built on sand. Like something that's really going to survive the fire. >> Yes. >> And that takes something healthier than what we've maybe been offering and then we've been steeped in. **[81:12]** Like it's not bad it's not a bad to recognize that. Just just get better, right? [laughter] Like we can get better. Yeah. >> Mhm. >> That's it. We can get better. So >> We can. >> Yes, and I believe it. I believe it. >> Amen. >> Um amen. So, uh yeah, we're we ran out of time, but is there anything you want to tell people specifically about the Passion Translation uh before we go? >> Um you don't need it. >> Okay. [laughter] >> You really don't need it. Like the Holy **[81:43]** Spirit um has been ministering to Christians with you know, more faithful, scholarly, rigorous translations forever. He's not going to leave you. You might actually encounter him in deeper, better ways. So, and you can still get something pretty. So, just and talk to your pastors. That's what I would say. Like please your pastors and warn them and ask them to engage with the Minor Prophets videos even though they're you know, it might be 4 hours long. It's a very significant 4 hours. Like if this is worth your time. Um yeah. **[82:14]** >> Awesome. Awesome. >> It's good advice. >> Yeah. Nellie, you have anything before we go? >> No, I'm just like I think we could just talk very happily for hours. And I'm like I have no idea how we're going to end this thing. We're just have to just >> [laughter] >> Ah, we got to invite Dusty over for some you know >> You're in SoCal, right? Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Come down this is SoCal sometime. Yeah. >> [laughter] >> Yeah. >> Well, if you're in town >> Everyone has to come to SoCal at some point in their lives. >> to our [laughter] house. >> I've been there. I was in I was a Bethel **[82:45]** student. I've definitely done that. >> down here. Yeah. >> Yeah, I'm still West Coast. You never know. >> We never know. Well, it's been awesome Dusty. This is This is so good. Like it it actually helped my heart. I can feel it right now. >> Me too. I feel like I'm in ministry too talking to you guys. >> Yeah. Yeah, and I I hope you guys watch and understand we're not here attacking Bethel or Brian Simmons. We're just telling the truth. We We actually love them. We're praying for them. And we just include and we include **[83:18]** ourselves. We want to be the the church Jesus wants. >> Yeah. So with that said you guys Love you guys and we'll see you later. Godspeed and God bless. >> God bless. >> Bye.