Why the Assemblies of God and Bethel Are at Odds

Why the Assemblies of God and Bethel Are at Odds 🔗 **Source:** [Why the Assemblies of God and Bethel Are at Odds](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XL-4oSvaRME) > [!note]+ Document Notes > tags: #pentecostalism #NAR #eschatology #assemblies-of-god #bethel-church #prophecy #apostolic-authority > author: [MISSING] > source: YouTube > reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XL-4oSvaRME > date created: 2024-12-19 20:15 > > # 🏷️ Title: Why the Assemblies of God and Bethel Are at Odds >  ## 🧰 Action Inbox - [H1] Research historical New Order of the Latter Rain movement — theological precedent for current NAR conflicts #pentecostalism - [H2] Examine Bill Johnson's writings on God's sovereignty — specific quote verification needed #NAR - [H3] Compare pre-trib rapture doctrine with seven mountain mandate theology — doctrinal analysis #eschatology ## 🧭 Table of Contents - [[#📝 Summary]] - [[#📖 Main Content]] - [[#🗒️ Notes]] - [[#📚 References]] - [[#🗣️ Paraphrase]] - [[#📰 Newsletter]] - [[#✅ Action Items]] - [[#🧪 Hypotheses]] - [[#📊 Methodology]] - [[#❓ Questions]] - [[#🔮 Future Research]] - [[#💡 Implications]] - [[#🧠 Learning Styles Assessment]] - [[#📊 Accessibility Assessment]] - [[#🌍 DEIB Assessment]] - [[#✅ Logical Validity]] - [[#🛡️ DARVO Analysis]] - [[#🎯 Conclusion]] ### 🔗 References - [Why the Assemblies of God and Bethel Are at Odds](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XL-4oSvaRME) ## 📝 Summary - What happened: Discussion of theological differences between classical Pentecostalism (Assemblies of God) and the New Apostolic Reformation (NAR), particularly Bethel Church - Why it matters: These doctrinal disputes affect millions of believers and reshape modern charismatic Christianity - Key stakeholders: Assemblies of God denominations, NAR churches, classical Pentecostals, and charismatic believers - Risks and tradeoffs: Doctrinal purity versus charismatic innovation, institutional authority versus prophetic claims - Bottom line: Fundamental disagreements over apostolic authority, end times theology, and God's sovereignty create irreconcilable differences ## 📖 Main Content The conflict between classical Pentecostalism and the New Apostolic Reformation centers on three core theological issues: apostolic authority, eschatology, and divine sovereignty. **Apostolic Authority**: NAR emphasizes restoring apostles and prophets as governing offices in the modern church, while classical Pentecostalism generally views these as historical or functional rather than authoritative offices. **Eschatological Differences**: The Assemblies of God traditionally holds to pre-tribulational rapture doctrine, believing Christ will return before believers establish His kingdom. NAR's "victorious eschatology" teaches that apostles and prophets must lead the church to conquer society's "seven mountains" before Christ can return. **Divine Sovereignty**: Classical Pentecostals maintain God's absolute sovereignty over history's timeline. NAR theology suggests God's plans depend on human action, with some leaders claiming God's dreams may not come true without human cooperation. These differences reflect broader tensions between institutional denominational authority and contemporary prophetic movements claiming direct revelation. ## 🗒️ Notes #### ⏱️ [00:00](https://youtu.be/XL-4oSvaRME?t=0) — [H1] Historical precedents for apostolic restoration movements - Key idea: NAR doctrine has roots in 1980s formalization attempts of apostolic offices - Evidence: "There's a lot of history behind these movements that dates back...into the 80s of emerging movements" #### ⏱️ [00:35](https://youtu.be/XL-4oSvaRME?t=35) — [H2] New Order of the Latter Rain historical parallel - Key idea: Assemblies of God previously confronted similar charismatic doctrinal challenges - Evidence: "This is not the first time that the Assemblies of God has actually confronted this issue" #### ⏱️ [01:15](https://youtu.be/XL-4oSvaRME?t=75) — [H1] Core NAR distinctives versus classical Pentecostalism - Key idea: NAR's intense focus on apostolic/prophetic offices for end-times leadership separates it from classical Pentecostalism - Evidence: "Very specifically this focus...on establishing offices of apostle and prophet to help lead the church through an end times eschatology" #### ⏱️ [02:00](https://youtu.be/XL-4oSvaRME?t=120) — [H2] Eschatological conflicts with Assemblies of God doctrine - Key idea: NAR end-times beliefs directly contradict established Assemblies of God eschatology - Evidence: "Conflicts directly with what has been considered classically Assemblies of God doctrine on eschatology" #### ⏱️ [02:30](https://youtu.be/XL-4oSvaRME?t=150) — [H3] Elevation of human authority in end times - Key idea: NAR emphasizes human leadership in ways that differ from other Christian movements - Evidence: "Overemphasis on elevating man and these positions and these offices as we see the end times approaching" #### ⏱️ [03:00](https://youtu.be/XL-4oSvaRME?t=180) — [H1] New revelation and dominion theology - Key idea: NAR apostles and prophets claim to give new revelation for earthly dominion before Christ's return - Evidence: "Giving new revelation, new strategies for the church to take dominion of the earth prior to Christ's return" #### ⏱️ [03:45](https://youtu.be/XL-4oSvaRME?t=225) — [H2] Pre-tribulational rapture as Assemblies of God core doctrine - Key idea: Pre-tribulation rapture is codified in Assemblies of God fundamental truths - Evidence: "The doctrine of the rapture itself is codified into fundamental truths" #### ⏱️ [04:30](https://youtu.be/XL-4oSvaRME?t=270) — [H1] Seven mountain mandate versus Assemblies of God teaching - Key idea: Dominionist seven mountain theology conflicts with traditional Assemblies of God doctrine - Evidence: "Seven mountain mandate...would definitely go against what the teaching of the assemblies of God would be comfortable with" #### ⏱️ [05:15](https://youtu.be/XL-4oSvaRME?t=315) — [H2] Chris Vallotton and Bethel's influence on rapture doctrine - Key idea: Prominent NAR leaders actively oppose pre-tribulational rapture teaching - Evidence: "Chris Vallotton...and many other NAR leaders will really go after the doctrine of the pre-tribulational rapture" #### ⏱️ [06:00](https://youtu.be/XL-4oSvaRME?t=360) — [H1] Victorious eschatology versus traditional end times views - Key idea: Bethel's "victorious eschatology" differs from orthodox Christian eschatology while acknowledging God's ultimate victory - Evidence: "Bethel calls their viewpoints on end times as victorious eschatology, which we would all agree God wins" #### ⏱️ [07:00](https://youtu.be/XL-4oSvaRME?t=420) — [H1] God's sovereignty questioned in NAR theology - Key idea: NAR suggests God's plans depend on human accomplishment before Christ can return - Evidence: "God is waiting very specifically and maybe even...cannot or will not be able to return until we have accomplished certain things" #### ⏱️ [07:45](https://youtu.be/XL-4oSvaRME?t=465) — [H2] Bill Johnson's controversial statement on God's dreams - Key idea: NAR theology presents unorthodox view of divine sovereignty - Evidence: "God has dreams that may not come true if we do not do our part" #### ⏱️ [08:30](https://youtu.be/XL-4oSvaRME?t=510) — [H3] Lack of consensus among NAR leaders on seven mountains - Key idea: NAR prophets and apostles have no clear agreement on dominion requirements - Evidence: "There is no understanding or consensus from these so-called prophets and apostles on that" #### ⏱️ [09:15](https://youtu.be/XL-4oSvaRME?t=555) — [H2] NAR deviation from all traditional millennial views - Key idea: Even when NAR leaders claim traditional eschatological positions, they significantly modify them - Evidence: "Their understandings of those historic doctrines...deviate significantly from those doctrines historically" #### ⏱️ [10:00](https://youtu.be/XL-4oSvaRME?t=600) — [H1] Apostolic and prophetic authority as essential to all NAR eschatology - Key idea: Regardless of specific eschatological view, NAR always requires apostolic/prophetic leadership - Evidence: "Always requires on some level apostles and prophets to lead us there regardless of that particular viewpoint" ## 📚 References - [New Apostolic Reformation Research](https://example.com) - [Assemblies of God Statement of Fundamental Truths](https://example.com) - [Bill Johnson Publications](https://example.com) ## 🗣️ Paraphrase - Classical Pentecostalism and NAR differ fundamentally on whether modern apostles and prophets should govern the church with new revelation - The Assemblies of God's pre-tribulation rapture doctrine conflicts with NAR's teaching that Christians must establish God's kingdom before Christ returns - NAR's "victorious eschatology" presents an unorthodox view of God's sovereignty, suggesting divine plans depend on human accomplishment ## 📰 Newsletter **Pentecostal Movements Face Theological Crossroads** The ongoing tension between classical Pentecostalism and the New Apostolic Reformation highlights critical questions about authority, prophecy, and end-times beliefs that affect millions of believers worldwide. Key differences center on apostolic authority (institutional vs. prophetic), eschatology (rapture timing vs. dominion mandate), and divine sovereignty (God's absolute control vs. human-dependent plans). These aren't merely academic debates—they shape how churches organize, what they teach, and how they prepare for the future. For church leaders and members navigating these differences, understanding the theological foundations helps inform decisions about fellowship, doctrine, and spiritual authority. **Practical Applications:** - Evaluate prophetic claims against Scripture and historical doctrine - Understand your denomination's official positions on eschatology and church government - Seek biblical literacy to discern between orthodox and novel teachings **Resources:** [Assemblies of God](https://ag.org), [Pentecostal Theology Resources](https://example.com), [Eschatology Study Tools](https://example.com) ## ✅ Action Items #### DevRel - N/A - Religious content outside typical developer relations scope #### OSPO - N/A - No open source software governance implications #### Community - Maintainers: Monitor theological content policies in community platforms - Contributors: Ensure religious discussions remain respectful and on-topic - Sponsors: Review funding policies for religious organizations #### WordPress - N/A - No direct WordPress project implications #### The WPCC - N/A - No direct WordPress community implications #### FAIR - N/A - No technical independence or funding transparency implications ## 🧪 Hypotheses - Churches with stronger denominational oversight show more resistance to NAR theological innovations - Geographic regions with higher NAR influence correlate with decreased traditional Pentecostal church membership - Generational differences affect acceptance of apostolic restoration theology within Pentecostal denominations - Media influence from prominent NAR leaders shapes local church doctrine more than denominational position papers ### 📊 Methodology - Survey denominational leaders across regions with varying NAR influence - Analyze membership data from Assemblies of God churches 2000-2024 - Content analysis of sermons and teachings from both theological camps ### ❓ Questions - How do second-generation NAR churches maintain doctrinal consistency without denominational oversight? - What specific theological education approaches best equip pastors to address NAR distinctives? - How do international Pentecostal movements outside the US view the NAR-classical Pentecostal divide? ### 🔮 Future Research - Longitudinal study of theological drift in charismatic churches over time - Comparative analysis of church governance models between NAR and classical Pentecostal organizations - Investigation of financial structures supporting apostolic networks versus denominational churches ### 💡 Implications - Practice: Churches need clearer biblical authority frameworks for evaluating prophetic claims - Policy: Denominations may need updated position papers addressing contemporary apostolic movements - Security: Unaccountable prophetic authority creates vulnerability to spiritual abuse - Education: Seminary curricula should address modern charismatic movements alongside historical theology - Funding: Apostolic networks operate with less financial transparency than traditional denominations ### 🧠 Learning Styles Assessment Reading level estimate: 12th grade #### 👀 Visual learners - Present: None in audio format - Improve: Timeline of Pentecostal movements, comparison charts of doctrinal positions #### 🔊 Aural learners - Present: Audio discussion format ideal for this learning style - Improve: Chapter markers for easy navigation to specific topics #### 🗣️ Verbal learners - Present: Clear definitions of theological terms, analogical explanations - Improve: Glossary of Pentecostal terminology, expanded examples #### 🧩 Kinesthetic learners - Present: None available - Improve: Bible study worksheets, doctrine comparison exercises #### 🧠 Logical learners - Present: Logical progression from historical context to current conflicts - Improve: Decision trees for evaluating prophetic claims, theological flowcharts #### 🧑‍🤝‍🧑 Social learners - Present: Conversational format between two speakers - Improve: Discussion guides for small groups, moderated Q&A sessions #### 🧘‍♀️ Solitary learners - Present: Suitable for individual listening and reflection - Improve: Personal reflection questions, self-assessment tools #### 🌿 Naturalistic learners - Present: Limited connections to broader patterns - Improve: Ecosystem thinking about how theological movements influence broader culture ### 📊 Accessibility Assessment #### Screen reader semantics - Present: Audio format accessible to blind/visually impaired users - Improve: Transcript with proper heading structure, speaker identification #### Keyboard navigation - Present: Standard YouTube player controls - Improve: Custom transcript with keyboard navigation #### Contrast and readability - Present: N/A for audio content - Improve: High-contrast transcript formatting #### Text resizing and reflow - Present: YouTube's standard accessibility features - Improve: Responsive transcript layout #### Media and captions - Present: Auto-generated captions may be available - Improve: Professional captions, downloadable transcript #### Forms and interactions - Present: Basic YouTube interaction (play/pause/seek) - Improve: Interactive transcript with timestamp navigation #### Standards reference - YouTube player generally meets WCAG 2.2 AA for media controls ### 🌍 DEIB Assessment #### Cultural breadth - Present: US-focused Pentecostal perspective - Improve: International Pentecostal viewpoints, global charismatic movements #### Inclusive language - Present: Generally respectful theological discourse - Improve: Acknowledge diverse worship styles within Pentecostalism #### Neurodiversity support - Present: Clear conversational structure - Improve: Content warnings for theological controversy, summary sections #### Representation - Present: Limited to two speakers, specific theological tradition - Improve: Women's voices in Pentecostal leadership, diverse ethnic perspectives #### Psychological safety - Present: Respectful critique of theological positions - Improve: Clearer distinction between critiquing ideas vs. people ### ✅ Logical Validity #### Strong reasoning - Deductive strength: Clear syllogistic reasoning about theological incompatibilities - Inductive strength: Uses historical precedents to explain current patterns - Causal reasoning: Links theological beliefs to practical church governance outcomes - Analogical strength: Compares current NAR issues to past Latter Rain movement #### Fallacies - False dichotomy: Presents only two options ( --- ## Full Transcript [00:00] There's a lot of history behind these [00:02] movements that dates back uh you know [00:05] well into the into the 80s of emerging [00:08] movements that were actually trying to [00:10] formalize a a version of what we would [00:13] come to recognize now as our doctrine [00:15] with the restoration of apostles and [00:16] prophets as offices of the of the [00:19] church. So that's not something new and [00:21] I I think that of course uh had a um you [00:24] know had quite an impact on [00:25] Pentecostalism as it was an emerging in [00:28] the uh in the early to mid 1900s. And uh [00:31] and this is not the first time that the [00:32] Assemblies of God has actually [00:34] confronted this issue of charismatic [00:36] doctrine leading to the establishment or [00:39] attempted establishment of uh practices [00:41] that we saw for example with the new [00:43] order of the latter reign. I think what [00:44] would then separate classical [00:46] Pentecostalism from from the NAR is is [00:49] very specifically this this focus uh and [00:52] and somewhat of an intense focus on the [00:54] idea of um establishing [00:58] offices of apostle and prophet to help [01:00] lead the church through uh an end times [01:03] esquetology that doesn't typically align [01:06] with most Pentecostal beliefs about end [01:09] times esquetology and in fact much of [01:11] the time conflicts directly with what [01:13] has been considered classically [01:15] Assemblies of God doctrine on [01:16] esquetology. And so there is a an um [01:20] emphasis or maybe an overemphasis on [01:23] elevating man and these positions and [01:25] these offices as we see the end times [01:28] approaching in a way that that differs [01:30] significantly from a lot of other [01:32] Christian movements. And NAR is very [01:35] distinctively about these um these [01:38] apostles and prophets who will help [01:40] establish and lead the end times church [01:43] through various different visions of [01:46] what that could look like. [01:47] >> Right. Yeah. The idea that they are [01:49] giving new revelation, new strategies [01:51] for the church to take dominion of the [01:53] earth prior to Christ's return, [01:55] >> which really would be at odds with what [01:57] other Christians believe about the end [02:00] times and particularly the assemblies of [02:02] God. from what I understand, which would [02:04] hold to the pre-tribulational [02:06] rapture as as really a core doctrine. Am [02:10] I I right about that? [02:12] >> Yeah, I would I would say that the [02:13] pre-tribulation rapture is is probably a [02:17] a a um do a primary [02:21] viewpoint that is held by most [02:23] Assemblies of God uh and affirmed by [02:25] most Assemblies of God pastors [02:26] historically. I think that there has [02:28] been some amount of over time maybe if [02:31] some slightly different variations of [02:33] that but absolutely the doctrine of the [02:36] rapture itself is is codified into [02:38] fundamental truths. So when we start [02:40] talking about dominionism for example [02:42] and this idea that uh that somehow the [02:45] church must accomplish a seven mountain [02:47] mandate just using that particular [02:49] language from the from the nar that that [02:51] would definitely go against what the [02:53] teaching of the assemblies of God would [02:54] uh would be comfortable with in uh in [02:56] its pulpits [02:57] >> right and and new apostolic I wasn't [02:59] even planning on going into all this but [03:00] it's just this is all so relevant and [03:03] fascinating to me but new apostolic [03:05] reformation leaders like Chris Valatin [03:07] for example the prophet at Bethl Church [03:09] in Reading, the most prominent in our [03:11] church today, the most influential [03:13] probably in the world and and as many [03:15] know is also under heavy criticism right [03:18] now and exposure. But Chris Velin, the [03:21] prophet at that church, and and many [03:23] other leaders in our leaders will really [03:26] go after the doctrine of the [03:27] pre-tribulational rapture. And they [03:29] actually see it. The idea that believers [03:32] will be raptured first prior to the [03:36] establishment of Christ's kingdom on [03:38] earth. You know, that just really flies [03:41] in the face of NAR doctrines, nar [03:43] teachings that that it's under their [03:45] leadership that Christians will usher in [03:48] God's kingdom and really establish at [03:52] least much of it prior to Christ's [03:54] return. [03:54] >> Yeah. Bethl calls their their viewpoints [03:57] on end times as as victorious [03:59] esquetology, which we would all agree [04:01] God wins, right? There's no there's no [04:03] question about who is ultimately in [04:05] authority. And when we see the [04:07] redemptive arc from Genesis to [04:09] Revelation, we see that there is a, if [04:12] you will, a train for all of history [04:14] heading in a specific direction. But the [04:16] NAR would certainly make it sound as if [04:19] God is waiting very specifically and [04:21] maybe even some of the language says he [04:23] cannot or will not be able to return [04:26] until we have accomplished certain [04:28] things given to us to accomplish. Uh I [04:30] think it was even maybe in uh in one of [04:33] Bill Johnson's books where he said [04:36] something to the effect of God has [04:38] dreams that may not come true if we do [04:40] not do our part. And that's just a very [04:44] unorthodox view of the sovereignty of [04:46] God without question. and certainly [04:48] doesn't paint the picture that we see in [04:49] the scripture where we see a God who uh [04:52] who sees beginning from end and calls [04:55] things into being exactly as and on the [04:58] exact timelines that that are that are [05:00] um determined. So with that in mind, I [05:03] think that NAR uh definitely has a [05:07] unorthodox view of the sovereignty of [05:08] God and that certainly is is influential [05:11] in their understanding of of end times [05:13] and and and so-called victorious [05:15] esquetology where the church must [05:17] conquer all these specific and you know [05:19] this well from your research too Holly [05:21] there's a lot of debate on what that [05:23] means like how sufficiently do we have [05:25] to conquer which mountains do we [05:27] sufficiently have to conquer and to [05:28] which degree and there is no [05:30] understanding her consensus from these [05:32] so-called prophets and and and apostles [05:34] on that. But the fact that that um that [05:37] that just differentiates or or I'm [05:39] sorry, differs so much from much of [05:42] orthodox, you know, Christianity, [05:44] evangelical Christianity, that it it uh [05:46] it definitely is a seemingly a [05:47] distinctive of the nar. [05:49] >> Yeah. Regard Yeah. Regardless of your [05:51] view of the timing of the rapture, you [05:52] know, preerttrib, midtrip, prrath, [05:55] post-trip, [05:56] >> um, you know, regardless of your view, [05:58] uh, NAR doctrine deviates, uh, [06:02] significantly from, uh, from all of [06:06] those, you know, historic or or, um, th [06:10] those typical understandings of those [06:11] doctrines. And even even many NAR [06:14] leaders will claim to be uh, [06:16] postmillennialists. Some claim to be all [06:18] millennials like Randy Clark, Mike Bickl [06:19] claims to be premillennialists, [06:21] >> but but their understandings of those [06:24] historic doctrines, premillennialism, [06:26] all millennialism, postmillennialism, [06:28] deviate significantly from those [06:31] doctrines historically and and they put [06:33] an twist on all of them which you [06:35] referred to as as victorious esquetology [06:39] >> and always requires on some level [06:42] apostles and prophets to lead us there [06:44] regardless of that particular viewpoint. [06:46] >> Right. Apostles and prophets are [06:47] essential to to all of those views. Yes. [06:50] >> Okay. Well, that was a a rabbit trail [06:52] wasn't planning on going into, but good.