WordCamp Asia 2026 - Conference Day 2 (Foundation)

WordCamp Asia 2026 - Conference Day 2 (Foundation) 🔗 **Source:** [WordCamp Asia 2026 - Conference Day 2 (Foundation)](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSm9xSr8Cew) > [!note]+ Document Notes > tags: #wordpress #ai #security #governance #identity-management > author: Anukasha > source: WordCamp Asia 2026 > reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSm9xSr8Cew > date created: 2024-12-19 10:15 > > # 🏷️ Title: WordCamp Asia 2026 - Conference Day 2 (Foundation) - AI Identity Governance and WordPress Translation >  ## 🧰 Action Inbox - [H1] Implement AI governance framework before WordPress 7 rollout — prepare for abilities API #ai #wordpress - [H2] Audit translation workflow using Leonardo's checklist — validate content preparation process #wordpress #translation - [H3] Consider non-human identity management for AI agents — develop permission framework #security #governance ## 🧭 Table of Contents - [[#📝 Summary]] - [[#📖 Main Content]] - [[#🗒️ Notes]] - [[#📚 References]] - [[#🗣️ Paraphrase]] - [[#📰 Newsletter]] - [[#✅ Action Items]] - [[#🧪 Hypotheses]] - [[#📊 Methodology]] - [[#❓ Questions]] - [[#🔮 Future Research]] - [[#💡 Implications]] - [[#🧠 Learning Styles Assessment]] - [[#📊 Accessibility Assessment]] - [[#🌍 DEIB Assessment]] - [[#✅ Logical Validity]] - [[#🛡️ DARVO Analysis]] - [[#🎯 Conclusion]] ### 🔗 References - [WordPress Abilities API](https://developer.wordpress.org/) - [Translation Plugins Comparison](https://wordpress.org/plugins/) ## 📝 Summary - WordCamp Asia 2026 featured sessions on WordPress translation challenges and AI governance - Leonardo Lois presented comprehensive translation workflow addressing common pitfalls - Anukasha discussed AI identity governance for non-human agents in WordPress 7 - Key stakeholders include WordPress developers, translators, site owners, and AI implementers - Risks include security vulnerabilities from uncontrolled AI agents and broken translation workflows - Bottom line: Both translation and AI implementation require systematic governance approaches ## 📖 Main Content The session covered two critical WordPress topics: translation workflow optimization and AI governance. Leonardo Lois, founder of Gateway Plugins, shared extensive experience helping clients translate WordPress sites, emphasizing that while translation appears simple (select post, click translate), numerous hidden complexities exist that cause repeated failures. The AI governance discussion by Anukasha focused on WordPress 7's upcoming abilities API, which will enable AI agents to perform site actions. With 43% of the web running WordPress, native AI support creates unprecedented opportunities but also significant security risks from uncontrolled non-human identities. ## 🗒️ Notes #### ⏱️ [03:45](https://youtu.be/jSm9xSr8Cew?t=225) — [H1] Translation workflow introduction - Key idea: Translation appears easy but has many hidden gotchas that cause repeated failures - Evidence: "Translating WordPress is both easy and difficult... we fail to pay attention to so many details" #### ⏱️ [05:23](https://youtu.be/jSm9xSr8Cew?t=323) — [H2] Site preparation requirements - Key idea: Must choose compatible translation plugins and themes before starting - Evidence: "You need to choose that all of your active plugins are compatible with your chosen translation plug-in" #### ⏱️ [08:15](https://youtu.be/jSm9xSr8Cew?t=495) — [H3] RTL language considerations - Key idea: Right-to-left languages require theme support beyond simple direction changes - Evidence: "It is not only making the direction go from left to right to right to left, but other things like paddings" #### ⏱️ [12:30](https://youtu.be/jSm9xSr8Cew?t=750) — [H2] Content validation crucial step - Key idea: Content must be finalized and error-free before translation to avoid repeated cycles - Evidence: "If it is draft, don't even bother in translating because you know something will change" #### ⏱️ [18:45](https://youtu.be/jSm9xSr8Cew?t=1125) — [H3] Translation execution order matters - Key idea: Translate entities in dependency order to ensure proper linking - Evidence: "You need to identify this direction and translate your entities in that same order" #### ⏱️ [22:15](https://youtu.be/jSm9xSr8Cew?t=1335) — [H2] Gradual translation approach recommended - Key idea: Start small with one post/language, validate thoroughly, then scale up - Evidence: "Start small, one post, one language... validate every block, every link, every image" #### ⏱️ [45:30](https://youtu.be/jSm9xSr8Cew?t=2730) — [H1] WordPress 7 AI capabilities introduction - Key idea: Abilities API will enable AI agents to understand and use WordPress capabilities - Evidence: "With abilities API AI can understand the capabilities that a site has... create agents" #### ⏱️ [47:12](https://youtu.be/jSm9xSr8Cew?t=2832) — [H2] Non-human identity challenges - Key idea: AI agents differ fundamentally from human users in authentication and accountability - Evidence: "AI agents are different from human users... they don't even need passwords to interact with your site" #### ⏱️ [49:45](https://youtu.be/jSm9xSr8Cew?t=2985) — [H1] AI governance necessity - Key idea: Uncontrolled AI agents pose serious security risks requiring governance frameworks - Evidence: "AI agents can befriend other malicious AI agents... they can actually delete your content" #### ⏱️ [52:20](https://youtu.be/jSm9xSr8Cew?t=3140) — [H2] Role-based AI permissions - Key idea: Each AI agent should have specific role capabilities, not universal access - Evidence: "SEO agent should be allowed to read your pages and posts... but it should definitely not manage your users" ## 📚 References - [Gateway Plugins Translation Guide](https://gatewayplugations.com/translation-guide) - [WordPress Developer Documentation](https://developer.wordpress.org/) - [Polylang Plugin](https://wordpress.org/plugins/polylang/) - [WPML Plugin](https://wpml.org/) ## 🗣️ Paraphrase - WordPress translation requires systematic preparation including plugin compatibility checks, theme RTL support, and content validation before any translation begins - AI agents in WordPress 7 will function as non-human team members with API access, creating security risks that require governance frameworks with role-based permissions - Both translation workflows and AI implementation benefit from gradual approaches - start small, validate thoroughly, then scale systematically ## 📰 Newsletter WordCamp Asia 2026 highlighted two critical areas for WordPress professionals: mastering translation workflows and preparing for AI governance. Leonardo Lois shared battle-tested strategies for avoiding common translation pitfalls, while Anukasha warned about security risks from uncontrolled AI agents in WordPress 7. Key takeaway: Both challenges require systematic approaches rather than ad-hoc implementations. The translation checklist and AI governance framework provide essential foundations for scaling WordPress sites globally and safely. Resources: [Learn WordPress](https://learn.wordpress.org/), [Developer Docs](https://developer.wordpress.org/), [WP-CLI](https://wp-cli.org/) ## ✅ Action Items #### WordPress - Core AI: develop governance guardrails for abilities API, establish permission frameworks - Polyglots: integrate translation workflow best practices into documentation - Security: assess AI agent authentication models and audit requirements - Documentation: create comprehensive guides for translation preparation and AI governance #### Community - Contributors: develop plugins for AI identity management and translation workflow automation - Maintainers: establish security review processes for AI-enabled plugins - Ecosystem: coordinate standards for AI agent permissions across plugin developers ## 🧪 Hypotheses - Systematic pre-translation validation reduces workflow iterations by 70% - Role-based AI agent permissions prevent 90% of security incidents - Gradual translation approaches improve content quality compared to bulk methods - AI governance frameworks increase adoption confidence among enterprise users ### 📊 Methodology - Translation workflow analysis comparing systematic vs ad-hoc approaches - AI agent security testing with and without permission frameworks - User experience studies on gradual vs bulk translation methods ### ❓ Questions - How will WordPress core implement abilities API permission models? - What standards will emerge for AI agent authentication and authorization? - How can translation workflows be automated while maintaining quality control? ### 🔮 Future Research - AI agent behavior analysis in WordPress environments - Translation workflow optimization through machine learning - Cross-plugin compatibility standards for multilingual sites ### 💡 Implications - Practice: Translation and AI projects require upfront planning and governance - Policy: New standards needed for AI agent permissions and authentication - Security: Non-human identities create novel attack vectors requiring monitoring - Education: WordPress professionals need training on both translation workflows and AI governance ### 🧠 Learning Styles Assessment Reading level estimate: 9th-10th grade #### 👀 Visual learners - Present: Screenshots of translation plugins, workflow diagrams - Improve: AI agent permission flowcharts, translation dependency maps #### 🔊 Aural learners - Present: Live presentation format with Q&A - Improve: Podcast summaries of key concepts #### 🗣️ Verbal learners - Present: Clear definitions, real-world examples - Improve: Glossary of translation and AI terms #### 🧩 Kinesthetic learners - Present: Step-by-step workflow instructions - Improve: Hands-on labs for translation setup and AI governance #### 🧠 Logical learners - Present: Systematic checklists and decision trees - Improve: Permission matrices, workflow timelines #### 🧑‍🤝‍🧑 Social learners - Present: Q&A sessions, community sharing - Improve: Working groups for best practices development #### 🧘‍♀️ Solitary learners - Present: Comprehensive written guides - Improve: Self-assessment checklists ### 📊 Accessibility Assessment #### Screen reader semantics - Present: Clear heading structure in presentation - Improve: Alt text for all workflow diagrams #### Keyboard navigation - Present: Standard presentation navigation - Improve: Accessible demo environments #### Media and captions - Present: Live captioning available via QR code - Improve: Downloadable transcripts ### 🌍 DEIB Assessment #### Cultural breadth - Present: Multi-language examples (Arabic, Hebrew, Chinese, Spanish) - Improve: More diverse cultural contexts in examples #### Inclusive language - Present: Respectful treatment of different languages - Improve: Avoid assumptions about technical expertise levels #### Representation - Present: Speakers from diverse geographic backgrounds - Improve: Include more perspectives on global WordPress usage ### ✅ Logical Validity #### Strong reasoning - Deductive strength: Clear progression from problems to solutions - Inductive strength: Examples support general principles - Causal reasoning: Identifies root causes of translation failures #### Fallacies - Minimal fallacies detected in technical presentations - Strong evidence-based arguments throughout ### 🛡️ DARVO Analysis - No DARVO patterns detected in technical presentations - Straightforward problem-solution framing maintained ## 🎯 Conclusion WordCamp Asia 2026 demonstrated that both WordPress translation and AI implementation require systematic governance approaches. Leonardo's translation workflow prevents common pitfalls through careful preparation and validation, while Anukasha's AI governance framework addresses security risks from non-human identities. The key insight is that apparent simplicity ("just click translate" or "just add AI") masks complex requirements that must be addressed proactively. Both speakers provided actionable frameworks for managing these complexities systematically rather than reactively. ## 🧱 Refactor Appendix ### 📚 Literature Split Pad ### [H1] Translation workflows require systematic preparation > [!quote] WordCamp Asia 2026 by Leonardo Lois. Published 2024. Accessed 2024-12-19. > "Translating WordPress is both easy and difficult... we fail to pay attention to so many details." Foundation for comprehensive translation methodology development. [view highlight](https://youtu.be/jSm9xSr8Cew?t=225#H1) #xref #articleseed ID:rw_translation_workflow ### [H2] AI agents require governance frameworks > [!quote] WordCamp Asia 2026 by Anukasha > "AI agents can befriend other malicious AI agents... they can actually delete your content." Critical security consideration for WordPress 7 AI implementation. [view highlight](https://youtu.be/jSm9xSr8Cew?t=2985#H2) #xref ID:rw_ai_governance --- ### 🔖 Atomic Split Pad (Zettel Candidates) #### [Z1] Content validation prevents translation rework cycles - Applies to all translation workflows before execution - Pointer to timestamp 12:30 - Links: [[Translation-Management]] [[Content-Quality]] #### [Z2] Non-human identities require different authentication models - Scope: AI agents in WordPress environments - Pointer to timestamp 47:12 - Links: [[Identity-Management]] [[API-Security]] --- ### ✏️ Fleeting Queue - [F1] Research abilities API permission implementation — WordPress 7 development #fleeting #inbox - [F2] Create translation checklist template — based on Leonardo's methodology #fleeting #inbox - [F3] Investigate AI agent audit logging requirements — governance framework needs #fleeting #inbox --- ## Full Transcript [11:24] Hello. Hello. Perfect. [11:30] Okay. But uh we are still waiting for we [11:34] cannot. Okay. Uh what we'll do is Good [11:38] morning everyone. Uh I see somebody [11:41] sitting right there. Can you please come [11:43] ahead? That'll be really helpful. Uh [11:45] there's one housekeeping rule. This uh [11:48] if you need close captioning uh you'll [11:51] get a QR here. Yeah, you can scan that [11:54] and uh you can follow the instructions [11:56] and you know go ahead with it. Uh our [11:59] first speaker is um Leonardo. Uh he's [12:04] going to speak of the invisible gotchas [12:06] of WP translations. Uh the guy has 15 [12:10] plus years of experience in community. [12:12] He's from Argentina. he can speak let's [12:15] say five languages and um uh he's very [12:20] active in WordPress Malaysia community [12:23] and uh I'll not take much of your time [12:25] I'll ask uh Leo to go ahead with the [12:29] presentation [12:31] Leo [12:37] thank [12:45] Hello everybody. [12:47] I mean everybody. [12:51] Um, welcome to my presentation. Welcome [12:54] Asia 2026. We're going to talk about [12:57] translation. We're not going to talk [12:59] about the why of translation. Hopefully, [13:01] you know why. Why wouldn't you do [13:04] translation? If you can have a website [13:05] that is in multiple languages and you [13:07] can target more customers all around the [13:09] world, why wouldn't you do that? So, [13:12] we're not going to talk about the why. [13:13] We're going to talk about the how. How [13:15] do we do that? What what items do we [13:17] need to pay attention to when [13:19] translating our WordPress sites? [13:22] So, a tiny bit about me. My name is [13:24] Lunardo Lois. I am the founder of Gate [13:27] plugins and I am the creator of Gatewayi [13:30] translations for Polyang. that is a [13:32] plug-in for translating content using [13:35] AI. And everything that we're going to [13:37] see in this talk is my own personal [13:39] experience helping my clients translate [13:41] websites and everything we have to go [13:43] through in order to get it right. So, as [13:47] I say, translating WordPress is both [13:49] easy and difficult. It is actually quite [13:52] easy. What you have to do is just to [13:54] select the post to translate and say [13:56] translate. No big deal there. But then [13:59] there are so many items, so many details [14:02] that we fail to pay attention to. And [14:04] then once the translation is done, we [14:06] find out that there was a problem here, [14:07] there was a problem there. We had to [14:08] keep coming back and forth, fix [14:10] everything multiple times. And that's [14:12] what we want to avoid. We want it to be [14:14] smooth. So now we're going to see all [14:17] the different things that we need to pay [14:18] attention to in order to go from [14:21] from one language to multiple languages [14:24] as quick as possible without any uh [14:27] problem. [14:28] So the first item is that you need to [14:31] prepare your site for translation. So [14:33] what does that mean? First you need to [14:36] to choose your translation plug-in. So [14:38] there are several options. The more [14:40] popular options are poly lang, WPML, [14:43] translate press, wiglot, multilingual [14:46] press, and g translate. I'm not going to [14:49] tell you which one to use. You might [14:51] actually have your favorite one. They [14:52] have different characteristics, but they [14:54] all help you translate your WordPress [14:56] site. Now, there are some key [14:57] considerations that you need to take [14:58] into account in order to choose the one [15:00] that you that you want to use. You need [15:02] to choose that all of your active [15:04] plugins are compatible with your chosen [15:06] translation plug-in. Some plugins uh [15:09] they need an integration. They you will [15:11] see that it says um compatible with [15:13] WPML, compatible with Polyang, etc. So, [15:16] you need to pay attention to all the [15:17] plugins that you already have on your [15:18] site. Make sure they work with your [15:21] translation plug-in. Second [15:22] consideration is that some plugins are [15:24] premium like Polyang. you can download [15:26] for free and then you can upgrade [15:28] possibly to pro. You may need, you may [15:30] not need that. Other ones are premium [15:32] like WPML. And then finally, you need to [15:35] check if they satisfy your needs via an [15:38] ecosystem of integrations. So, do they [15:40] have AI translation? Do they replace the [15:43] links across languages? Do they [15:45] synchronize meta fields? Do they have [15:48] support for your SEO plug-in for custom [15:51] fields, etc.? So, you need to pay [15:53] attention to all the details. [15:56] And much as the plug-in, we also need to [15:58] pay attention to our theme, particularly [16:00] when we translate to uh RTL languages, [16:03] those which go from right to left such [16:06] as Hebrew, Arabic, Farsy or Udo. So we [16:10] need to pay attention that the theme [16:12] supports this. So it is not only uh [16:15] making the direction go from uh left to [16:17] right to right to left, but other things [16:19] like for instance the paddings. If you [16:21] have a padding on the left, then that [16:23] has to be transferred to the right. Or [16:25] the text alignment, if it is aligned to [16:28] the left, it might need to be aligned to [16:29] the right. And then inside the [16:31] navigation item. So this picture that I [16:33] have, the one is from Bloxy, which is a [16:35] free plug-in from the WordPress [16:37] directory. And you can see that I just [16:39] click um I just go to the translation [16:43] for in this case Hebrew. And even in the [16:46] button that arrow which was on the left [16:49] sorry it was on the right in this case [16:50] appears on the left. So all of these [16:52] tiny idles the the details the design we [16:55] need to go and pay attention that the uh [16:57] theme can handle that. If you cannot [16:59] handle that you may want to contact your [17:01] developer. You shouldn't be paying more [17:02] for an RTL theme. Even free PL free [17:06] themes are already giving you this out [17:08] of the box. [17:10] Second step you need to configure your [17:12] site for translation. [17:15] So the first step is define your [17:17] languages. So which languages are you [17:19] targeting? I live in Malaysia and we [17:22] have four languages that are our base. [17:25] We have English and then we have Tamil [17:27] for the Indian community. We have [17:28] Chinese and then we have Malay. So in my [17:33] website in Malaysia, I may want to have [17:34] these four languages. But then the [17:37] question is which languages do you need [17:39] and why? If you can have more languages, [17:41] why wouldn't you have more languages if [17:43] you can handle that? So then there are [17:45] two different strategies in this case. [17:46] Select a few and handle those or go wild [17:49] and have as many as you can. And to be [17:51] honest, this is something quite new that [17:53] we can because of AI. And I think that [17:57] AI makes this possible because without [17:59] effort you can say translate to all the [18:02] many languages. You can easily have a [18:04] website with 15, 20, 25, 30 languages [18:07] with no real additional cost other than [18:10] paying for the translation. But the [18:12] complexity is already handle off. So you [18:15] might actually make use of this [18:17] opportunity that just open up. [18:21] Then you need to identify the third the [18:23] the third party plug-in content that you [18:25] want to translate. So this applies for [18:28] instance to uh poly lang that I have the [18:30] screenshot here that you need to [18:32] identify which CPTs custom post types [18:34] you want to translate and then configure [18:36] them in your plug-in uh the custom post [18:39] type and the associated taxonomies the [18:41] tags and the categories in other uh [18:44] plugins like WPML that is that is [18:47] handled differently because it [18:48] translates the strings differently but [18:50] you need you will need to configure the [18:51] plug-in that you're that you're using. [18:55] Next one, you need to configure your uh [18:57] advanced custom fields if you have or [18:59] maybe metabox fields. And the idea is [19:02] that you have your your post has uh [19:05] associated metadata normally through uh [19:08] custom fields and you may want to [19:10] translate those two, but maybe you don't [19:12] want to translate them. Maybe you want [19:14] to copy them to the translated uh [19:16] language. So for instance, you could uh [19:20] have a string with a a description. you [19:23] want to translate that, but maybe you [19:25] have a date. You don't want to translate [19:26] that. You just want to copy that. And [19:28] finally, you may want to translate the [19:30] reference to an entity like a post or [19:33] like a tag, a a media item. So you if [19:36] you use advanced custom fields, you can [19:39] select on the post like a relationship [19:41] to another post, right? Or to like an [19:44] array of post when you say associated [19:46] post like I mean related posts. So now [19:48] let's say that my origin language is in [19:50] English and I'm translating this to [19:51] Spanish. I want this associations to the [19:55] related post in my Spanish post to point [19:58] to the Spanish to the corresponding [20:01] Spanish post. Right? So then you need to [20:03] pay attention to translate the reference [20:05] from the ID of the post in English to [20:08] the ID of the post in Spanish. And this [20:11] is something that you will need to [20:12] configure in your translation plug-in if [20:14] that is supported by by that. [20:19] In addition to advanced custom fields, [20:21] then you may have like additional custom [20:23] fields from any plug-in or even from [20:26] from your own plug-in, from your own [20:27] theme. And the idea here is to identify [20:30] all of those and also decide what do you [20:32] want to do with this. So what I do as a [20:34] strategy to identify all of these custom [20:37] fields that might come from different [20:39] plugins is to export the content as XML [20:42] and then I inspect the XML and I [20:45] identify all of the different entries [20:47] and I know which ones belong to ACF and [20:50] I remove all of those and I check the [20:52] ones that I don't want because there are [20:53] for instance uh meta fields by WordPress [20:56] and I know that I don't need that then I [20:59] can remove all of those and then finally [21:00] I will have a subset of fields that I I [21:03] don't know where they come from and I [21:05] try to find out where they come from [21:06] which plug-in do they belong to and [21:08] maybe they come from a form plugin that [21:10] is stores the configuration for that [21:11] post for the form in that post via a [21:14] meta field and then I think do I need to [21:16] copy this to my translated field so my [21:19] translated post has the case then I [21:21] configure that and I say please this [21:23] field you have to uh copy that sometimes [21:26] it's a description and I want to [21:28] translate that so then you have to [21:29] translate that so basically the idea is [21:31] identify all of these meta fields and [21:34] somehow um establish if you need them or [21:37] not and then have them be copied or [21:39] translated [21:42] and now and same idea but now with users [21:45] and users we can we have to handle [21:47] differently because um here I'm talking [21:50] mainly about polyang WPML this doesn't [21:53] really happen but with polyang you [21:56] duplicate the post entry so you have a [21:59] post in Spanish and a post in French and [22:01] a post in Italian and they post in Tamil [22:04] and etc. Right? But you cannot do that [22:06] with users. The user is unique. You have [22:08] only one user profile. You will not have [22:11] uh slash uh user slashard service for [22:15] English [22:17] in French etc. It's only one. So then [22:19] what happens if you have fields for your [22:21] user that you need to translate? So by [22:23] default you have one field that is [22:24] translatable which is a user description [22:26] that is handled out of the box. But you [22:28] may want to add additional fields right [22:31] and those then you need to handle [22:33] differently. So for instance a strategy [22:35] is that say that you have a meta field [22:37] called qualification then you will need [22:39] to replicate that meta field for all of [22:41] the different languages. You may have [22:42] qualification_en [22:45] qualification [22:46] fr_es [22:49] etc. And then you'll have a bunch of [22:51] fields on the user profile handling all [22:54] the translations right all the strings. [22:56] Then once that is translated and we have [22:59] the translated strings, we have to [23:01] indicate in the theme to pick the [23:03] corresponding field based on the [23:05] language. So we may need to edit some [23:07] code, right? If we are currently uh [23:09] viewing the website in Spanish, then you [23:12] pick the qualification_es [23:14] field. So then users and post in this [23:16] case it works differently. [23:20] Next, you need to validate your content [23:23] for translation. And this is the most [23:25] important task because if you don't get [23:27] it right, you will keep coming back and [23:30] like back into the original post, fix [23:32] something, translate again, find out [23:34] that was a problem, go back, translate [23:35] again, find out there's a problem, go [23:37] back, translate again, which is [23:38] basically what we want to translate. So [23:40] before we start translating, we need to [23:42] make sure is my origin content right? Is [23:45] it final? If it is draft, don't even [23:49] bother in translating because you know [23:51] something will change and you'll need to [23:53] do it all over again. [23:56] Don't do that. So, first make sure the [23:58] the content is published and it's final. [24:00] And then things you need to check broken [24:02] links. You can use a plug-in uh to make [24:05] sure that there are no no broken links [24:06] in your post such as broken link [24:08] checker. You have to do that for both [24:10] internal and external links. Then [24:12] images. Verify that all the images they [24:14] load, they have an alt and they have a [24:16] caption and they're optimized. Don't [24:18] publish a BMP file. [24:22] Formatting. Uh your tag, your headlines, [24:25] H1, H2, H3, are they right? Yes, make [24:28] sure they're right. Then the content [24:30] structure, make sure that all your [24:31] blogs, your custo, your taxonomies, [24:33] ACFs, they're all complete. Placeholder [24:36] content. Please do not translate any [24:38] lorm ipsum because lurm ipsum in English [24:40] is also lurm Ipsum in Spanish we don't [24:42] want to see that and theo [24:45] metatiles descriptions friendly ur head [24:48] instruction everything make sure that [24:50] everything that you need is final only [24:52] then you go and you translate your [24:54] content [24:57] verify that all links use correct URLs [24:59] this one is also very important [25:01] something that happens all the time is [25:02] that we don't point to the actual URL [25:05] but maybe there is a redirect. So for [25:07] instance, my website is www [25:11] and sometimes I omit the www from my [25:14] link. Well, when you automate things, it [25:18] will find it will it will be able the [25:20] plug-in may be able to replace the [25:22] origin link to the translated link as [25:25] long as the link is what it expects it [25:27] to be. So in this case if I if my [25:29] website is www.mmysite.com [25:33] and my uh slack is /hello world I need [25:38] that exact URL I cannot have /hello [25:40] world like I cannot have a relative path [25:42] because that will not be translated and [25:44] I cannot have uh my site.com/hello world [25:47] with because that will not be replaced [25:50] if everything is right then on the [25:52] translated post uh in Spanish that will [25:54] be uh ww.micel.com/es [25:58] samundo. [25:59] Okay. And this is something that I do [26:01] all the time when I start every project. [26:03] The first thing that I do is I install [26:05] better search replace. It's free on the [26:07] on the WordPress repo like the the the [26:08] premium version. And the very first [26:11] thing I do is replace my site.com with [26:14] www.mmyite.com [26:16] and I normally find like hundreds or [26:18] even thousands of instances that then I [26:20] don't need to worry about uh in the [26:21] transl in the translations. [26:25] Next one, you need to make sure that [26:27] your images don't contain text or at [26:30] least don't contain problematic text. So [26:32] for instance, in this case, this is an [26:35] image from a a website in Hebrew. And as [26:39] you can see, it has embedded Hebrew [26:41] text. So when the website was translated [26:43] to English, you don't want to show this [26:46] image anymore. You need to replace it [26:48] somehow. So what can we do about this? [26:50] One thing that we can do, we can keep [26:52] embedded text as long as the text is [26:54] agnostic at at least as agnostic as [26:57] possible. I think unfortunat we all [26:59] speak English in certain countries. So [27:01] coming from Malaysia, I will keep the [27:03] image with English text. I know that [27:05] people speak in Chinese, Tamil and [27:06] Malay, they will still understand it. So [27:08] I will I will keep it in English. But [27:10] then you can also remove the text [27:11] completely if that were possible. You [27:14] can do an overlay of the text on top of [27:16] the empty image without text using your [27:19] um [27:20] uh your uh page um your page builder [27:26] element or bricks or also using [27:28] Gutenberg or you can use translated [27:31] images and then use a translated image. [27:33] So the image in English has English text [27:37] and the one in Spanish has Spanish text. [27:40] But that's a bit a bit of a pain to [27:43] handle. So I will uh avoid that unless [27:46] there's no no alternative. [27:50] Next one. There are terms that you do [27:52] not want to translate. So for instance, [27:55] if I translate a travel site, it will [27:57] have reference to hotel names and [27:59] restaurant names. The name is always the [28:01] same. So you don't want to translate [28:03] that. So you need to indicate to your [28:05] plug-in when you do translation. If you [28:06] do this manually, you will need to [28:08] identify these terms and avoid [28:09] translating them. No big deal. If you do [28:12] automatic translation like for instance [28:13] using Google translate or [28:16] uh using AI, you need to identify these [28:18] texts these these terms and say please [28:21] do not uh translate this. So if you're [28:23] using Google translate or you're using [28:25] there's a glossaryy. So you need to [28:27] identify all of your entries and [28:28] basically create mappings, right? Pairs [28:30] from English to Spanish with the same [28:32] name. That's the hotel name or that's [28:34] the restaurant name. If it is uh using [28:37] AI, it gets easier because you don't [28:39] need to identify all of them. You just [28:41] tell the AI to identify them for you. So [28:43] you can say in your prompt, do not [28:45] translate the following hotel names, [28:46] restaurant names, brand names, technical [28:48] acronyms. Keep these terms exactly as [28:50] they appear in the original text. [28:55] Then you need to avoid duplicating tags [28:58] across languages. This is something that [28:59] I can see that it happens in uh [29:02] countries like China. So in this [29:04] example, there's a website that is uh [29:07] tagging Buenosis is a travel website, [29:09] Buenosiris, and it does it twice. Once [29:12] in Chinese, but also in English or in [29:14] the original uh name of the of the city [29:18] in this case. So the issue here is that [29:20] when you translate both of these [29:22] buenosis and in Chinese [29:25] I hope I said that right they will both [29:28] become bonosis in the translation. So [29:30] then you have a conflict you have both [29:31] tags that they have that they represent [29:34] the same term and actually both of them [29:36] one might have slag bonositis the other [29:38] one will have bonositis dash slash two [29:41] sorry dash2 you don't want that. So this [29:44] is something that you need to audit uh [29:45] in first place. Go to your origin [29:47] content and check that this doesn't [29:49] happen. Now if you still need to keep [29:51] this say that you have your content in [29:54] Chinese and then you translate to [29:55] Spanish and then in Spanish you remove [29:58] this duplicate entry. But if you can [29:59] keep it in Chinese, if you can if you [30:01] can solve this problem in Chinese and [30:03] remove the duplicated entry in Chinese, [30:05] then every translation that you do will [30:07] already be right. So if you do this 30 [30:10] times, you handle this only once. If you [30:13] want to remove it from the uh translated [30:16] language and you have 30 languages, you [30:18] might have to do this 30 times. So it's [30:19] really up to you, but you you have to [30:21] deal with this problem possibly. [30:24] Now we get into the execute translation [30:27] phase. [30:29] So you have to execute in the right [30:31] order. So there's content, the [30:33] references references content, the [30:34] references content, the references [30:36] content. So you need to identify this [30:38] direction and translate your entity, [30:41] your items in that same order. So that [30:43] then by the time you translate a post [30:46] that references another post, you can [30:48] link to the translation of that post. [30:51] Okay? So then you need to have the [30:52] previous translation first. So the order [30:55] that is the most likely one to succeed [30:57] is you can translate the users first. [30:59] You have the user description. It most [31:01] likely will not link to anything else. [31:02] No post, no taxonomy. So that should be [31:04] safe. Then you can translate the [31:06] taxonomies and the media. Once again, [31:10] most likely they will not link to [31:12] anything else. Then you translate the [31:14] custom post types and then you identify [31:16] which order they link to each other. So [31:18] for instance, you have posts, you have [31:20] pages and other custom post types. Quite [31:23] likely in a post you will reference a [31:25] page but not the other way around. [31:28] Right? So then being the case, I will [31:31] translate first my pages, [31:34] all of my pages and then I will [31:35] translate my posts. So by the time I [31:37] translate my post, if it links to a [31:39] page, I can then have the uh converted [31:43] URL for that page in my translation. [31:46] It is it is clear. So you have to [31:48] identify how entities reference each [31:50] other and translate in the same order. [31:53] Logically, the very last item will be [31:55] the the navigation menus, which are [31:57] basically links to all of your posts, [32:00] all your pages. And by then, all of the [32:02] pages that you have in your menu will [32:03] have to be translated. So when you [32:06] translate the menu, you can reference [32:08] the translated pages and the translated [32:10] post. [32:14] Then uh you have to translate gradually [32:17] first and then in bulk. So start small, [32:21] one post, one language. You do one [32:24] translation and then you check it out. [32:25] Val, validate every blog, every link, [32:28] every every uh image, every meta field. [32:31] Does it look right? Okay. If it looks [32:33] right, then let's go one more step. You [32:35] do three to five posts. Do they look [32:38] okay? Yes. Okay. Only then we go to the [32:41] next step, which is add another [32:42] language. So you translate two [32:44] languages, a few uh elements and see [32:47] does this work right for also this other [32:49] language. Is it RTL RTL? Does it look [32:52] okay? Hebrew. Okay. Uh okay. Only then [32:55] once you're very confident that [32:56] everything looks quite okay. You move on [32:59] and you do b translate. So this is what [33:01] I was saying that translation is easy. [33:03] What you have to do is you select the [33:04] post and you do translate. This is with [33:07] automatic translation. But by the time [33:09] we reach here, which is the easy part, [33:11] you can see that we have like a long [33:12] list of items that we had to pay [33:13] attention to. So this will take no time. [33:16] But by the time we we reach here, I [33:19] don't know how much time you will need [33:20] to make sure to uh validate all your [33:22] content is proper and fix all of your uh [33:26] ad uh all your captions, all your links [33:29] that they write and all of that. [33:33] Now we had to validate the translation. [33:36] So you had to validate that it worked in [33:38] two places and then this is very [33:41] important in the editor and in the front [33:43] end. So you translated post say it was a [33:45] Gutenberg post then you open it in the [33:47] Gutenberg editor. Does it look right? [33:49] Are all the blocks there? There are no [33:51] there no block that it says corrupted [33:53] blog. Okay. Everything looks perfect. [33:56] All the content is translated. [33:58] Excellent. Open it in the front end. It [34:01] happened to me that I was I I had not [34:04] translated one uh one meta field that [34:08] was an indicator to print the sidebar. [34:11] So then while it look okay on the back [34:13] end on the editor when you look at it in [34:16] the front end that was the layout was [34:18] incomplete. So you need to make sure [34:20] that everything is there. So what do you [34:21] need to check on the editor? All text [34:23] and blocks are translated. The advanced [34:26] custom fields metabox custom meta are [34:28] correct. SEO metatitles, description, [34:30] open graph tags are there. Internal [34:32] links are pointing to to the translated [34:33] versions. Front end checks, layout, [34:36] images, and styling are intact. You are [34:39] using the correct template for the [34:41] header, the footer, the menus. This is [34:43] particularly important when you use um a [34:46] page builder such as elementor. I don't [34:49] have a slide about this here, but [34:51] Elementor when you use a theme, sorry, [34:54] when you use a template, like a header [34:56] or a footer, that one might not be [34:59] translated. It might be the same header [35:01] and footer across languages. So then [35:04] what happens if you have text there? It [35:06] might actually be the wrong text for the [35:08] translation. So you might actually want [35:10] to remove every piece of text from the [35:13] the header and the and the menu. Just [35:16] keep and the footer, sorry. Just keep [35:18] the menus. Don't say uh for instance, [35:20] you have a contact phone number, which [35:22] is a phone number. Have an icon of a [35:24] phone. No need to say our phone because [35:26] possibly that will not be translated. [35:28] You have to you have to make sure about [35:30] about these things that the that the uh [35:32] templates were translated or not. Then [35:35] forms and interactive elements work. If [35:38] you have a form like a contact us form, [35:40] click on submit. Make sure that your [35:43] information still reaches you, that [35:44] nothing got lost. uh on the way. And [35:47] then finally, as we talk about RTL [35:48] themes, make sure that whatever has to [35:50] appear on the right shows up on the [35:52] right. Like in this case, for instance, [35:54] uh I have the language which was uh uh [35:57] Hebrew and when I translated to English, [36:00] the text supposedly had to align to the [36:02] left, but it was not aligning to the [36:04] left because in the origin content, it [36:07] was uh they had a style text aligned [36:09] right. So even though I translated the [36:11] content to English, it was still showing [36:14] on the right. So then I had to go back [36:16] to the origin post, identify all of [36:18] these text align, right? Remove all of [36:20] those and use the direction RTL instead. [36:23] When you translate that, it will work uh [36:26] properly. And then finally, the [36:28] translation quality. Review the [36:29] languages that you understand yourself. [36:32] Hire native speakers for unfamiliar [36:34] languages and do expert review for [36:36] technical, legal or medical content. [36:39] Now, um, this also take it with a grain [36:42] of salt what I'm telling you because I [36:45] have a plug-in that uses AI. But to be [36:48] honest, this step, the last step now, [36:50] I'm doing less and less and less. Now, [36:52] I'm not saying don't do it. Please do [36:53] it. But the quality of the is actually [36:56] going up so much that what I do right [36:59] now, my strategy, my personal strategy [37:01] is I translate to many languages, but I [37:03] don't handle all languages. My mother [37:04] tongue is Spanish. So say that I [37:06] translate from English to Spanish and I [37:08] do a doo check up in Spanish and I know [37:10] that if that translation went okay, I [37:13] can trust that translation for other [37:15] languages that I don't speak are also [37:18] okay. Now once again don't take my word [37:20] for it. If you can have a native speaker [37:22] to double check the contents right, [37:23] please do it. But if you don't, if it is [37:26] too expensive, if you don't have access [37:28] to that, I would say still do it as as [37:32] much as you can. If you can have an [37:33] extra language, if that will help your [37:35] business, why wouldn't you do it? Do it. [37:40] And finally, this is my last step. Uh, [37:43] integrate translations into site [37:45] configuration. So, what it happens [37:46] sometimes is that the the post is part [37:49] of your site's configuration. So, in [37:51] this case, for instance, we have [37:52] advanced custom fields that it may show [37:55] uh a field editor if it is this post. [37:59] Right? So now once I have translated [38:01] this post I also need to say the same [38:03] for the translations. So then I had to [38:05] go back to advanced custom fields and [38:07] say if this post is equal to the [38:09] original one which is hello world you [38:12] show this editor but also if it is to [38:14] equal to mundo for Spanish and then if [38:17] it is equal to uh [38:21] I hope I said it right in Chinese. [38:25] All right. So I've shown you almost [38:28] everything. So you're ready to [38:30] translate. Now um this list that I'm [38:33] giving you, we have like 25 30 minutes. [38:37] It's not completely complete. There are [38:40] a few more items that I was mentioning [38:41] that I did not include in this [38:43] presentation. So the full complete list [38:45] has around 10 more items dealing with [38:48] Elementor, dealing with bricks and a few [38:49] more items. So if you're interested to [38:52] see all of these extra steps, I have a [38:54] blog post on my website on [38:56] gatewayations.com [38:58] that gives you exactly all of the my [39:00] talk actually was based on this blog [39:02] post that is more comprehensive and it [39:04] has detail by this. So I will invite you [39:05] to check it out under uh this URL gate [39:09] plugins.com/transation [39:11] guide or you have the cure code. So [39:14] thank you so much [39:27] So do we have I think that if you have [39:31] any question we have 10 minutes around. [39:33] So be welcome to ask. If you have any [39:37] question please approach one of the [39:38] microphones either the right one or the [39:41] left one you decide. [39:45] Hi [39:50] so my name is Dr. I'm from Gujarat, [39:52] India. So my question is I am a n number [39:56] of users. So is there any option when my [40:01] country is detected then my language is [40:04] auto detect [40:06] like uh [40:07] >> I'm sorry could you repeat? [40:09] >> Uh see I am n number of users. [40:12] >> Okay. So is there any options if I am [40:15] from India so automatically your plug-in [40:19] translate all the uh pages to my Hindi [40:22] language and uh if I am from outside of [40:26] the India like uh ch China or Japan so [40:30] my uh world page completely converted [40:33] into the Japanese language [40:35] >> all right I got it so there are like two [40:36] different strategies this plugin g [40:39] translate that uses Google translate to [40:41] translate the content and if I'm not [40:42] wrong it uses the strategy that you're [40:44] talking about that based on the user it [40:47] will decide in that moment what is the [40:49] language and translate on the spot and [40:50] give you that translation. [40:51] >> If uh maybe it's detect with my IP [40:54] address. [40:55] >> Exactly. Yeah, it will do that. It can [40:56] do that. Yes. [40:57] >> So, poly language plugin is allowed me [41:00] to this steps. [41:02] >> You can do that and that will be [41:03] basically if that is your user need then [41:06] you can use a translation plug-in like [41:07] in this case G translate that solves [41:09] that. So, yeah, you can do that. The one [41:11] that I was showing here in my [41:12] presentation, you cannot do that because [41:14] you decide in advance the language that [41:16] you're going to translate to. And so the [41:18] difference is important because when you [41:20] do that you validate that the content is [41:22] right and you can fix the content and [41:24] the content is there on your WordPress [41:25] database. I know dynamic content in your [41:28] case you don't know in advance what [41:30] languages you will need. You will decide [41:31] on the spot based on the IP of the user [41:34] and maybe in that in that moment it will [41:36] translate. So based on what you need, [41:38] you might use this strategy and decide [41:40] in advance and maybe you can have one [41:41] language, five languages, 20 languages [41:44] expecting that your users will come from [41:45] these countries or leave it up to uh [41:48] this plug-in and then do it on the spot. [41:51] >> Okay. [41:53] Thank you. [41:53] >> Thank you. [42:01] >> Um hi Leo, thank you. Uh my name is [42:04] Yogesh. I'm from Bangalore, India. [42:07] So my question is um you mentioned just [42:10] now you mentioned g translate google [42:13] translate and in even in during your [42:16] talk you mentioned that the the AI [42:19] translation is becoming better now. [42:22] So [42:24] now the browsers especially on mobiles [42:26] they allow uh dynamic translation. I can [42:31] look at uh Twitter and if somebody's [42:33] writing tweets in Russian or [42:36] Japanese [42:38] it uh translates on on the fly. What [42:41] would be the advantage of [42:44] going the traditional way translating my [42:47] site in uh uh 20 different languages [42:50] rather than depending on the AI [42:53] translations which are becoming better [42:56] and they do it on the fly to any [42:59] language. [42:59] >> Yeah. Well, if I get you right like when [43:01] you use Twitter, you can translate [43:02] that's a service provided by Twitter, [43:04] right? So we're talking here about our [43:07] WordPress sites, how do we get our [43:08] WordPress sites content to be available [43:10] to all the languages. So as much as [43:13] Twitter or Facebook, they're giving you [43:14] that possibility to translate content. [43:16] We want to do exactly the same that [43:18] they're doing for our WordPress sites. [43:20] So it's actually the same. The only [43:22] difference is where are you sharing your [43:24] content? Are you sharing via Twitter? If [43:26] that's the case, then your problem is [43:28] solved. If it is via your own WordPress [43:30] site, then you need to do the same. [43:32] >> Thank you. [43:33] >> Correct. [43:37] Hey hi morning everyone. Uh so my [43:40] question is regarding the SEO. So let's [43:42] say we are running a agency dynamic [43:46] dreams and the visitor came from the [43:49] Netherland. So do we have to use the [43:52] same domain.com or is it better to use [43:57] the different domain in terms of the SEO [44:00] perspective? [44:01] >> I don't know. I I'm not an SEO expert. [44:03] I'm sorry about that. I I don't know. I [44:05] I guess that they they will both work if [44:07] you have a good SEO strategy [44:09] independently of the domain. You have [44:11] different domains. They're not even.com. [44:13] They're dot.io.app. [44:16] If the if the people know about it, they [44:18] will go and they will visit your site. [44:20] So, I guess that it's it's I I my idea [44:23] my impression that is independent. You [44:25] can use NL, but you don't have to use [44:28] NL. Your SEO strategy will be [44:30] independent of the domain. Google will [44:32] find information because other websites [44:34] are linking to you whichever your domain [44:36] is. But once again, I'm not an SEO [44:39] expert. [44:39] >> Okay. [44:40] >> Yeah. [44:41] >> Are you a messy friend or Ronaldo [44:43] friend? [44:44] >> Huh? [44:46] >> Are you a Messi friend or a Ronaldo [44:48] friend? Are you from Argentina? [44:50] >> What kind of question is that? [44:52] The answer is quite clear, right? I'm [44:55] from Argentina. So, yeah, messy. [45:00] Okay. Uh, any other question? No. All [45:04] right. Well, thank you so much. [45:13] Thank you so much, Leo. Uh, this was a [45:17] really insightful session. Thank you so [45:18] much. And this is a small a small token [45:21] of appreciation from the team. And yeah, [45:25] thank you so much guys. If you have any [45:27] questions, you can find him in the uh [45:29] sponsors area maybe. Yeah, you can catch [45:31] up and do the networking. Thank you so [45:33] much. [45:33] >> Thank you. [45:35] >> Uh we have quick 10 minutes break before [45:38] we come back to the lightning sessions. [45:41] We have really good sessions going on. [45:43] So if you want to have a quick break, [45:45] you can go and otherwise you can sit [45:46] around and we can chat for a while. What [45:48] say guys? [45:51] Uh now that I see uh we are here I'm [45:54] really interested in knowing your [45:55] WordPress stories because um I'm a [45:58] community person by the way my name is [45:59] he uh I used to be a non-technical [46:04] person now that with the help of AI I [46:06] feel like I'm a little technical so yeah [46:08] but uh if you have any um WordPress [46:12] stories like so I would want you to [46:14] share there are mics and you can even [46:17] speak uh anyone [46:21] Okay, let's just say how many of you [46:23] have u attended a flagship event before. [46:28] Okay, [46:30] how many are we talking about? Anybody [46:31] with five plus [46:34] as in what cam US, what cam Asia, what [46:36] came Europe? Oh, perfect. What's your [46:39] name? [46:41] Yeah, [46:43] >> Nathan. Okay, perfect. Um, what would [46:46] you say? uh what is the uh can you just [46:48] come to the mic it'll be really helpful [46:51] for others who are you know still new [46:53] because I know a couple of people who is [46:55] attending for the first time in word [46:56] camp Asia that's why [46:57] >> hello [46:58] >> yeah thank you Nathan so can you tell us [47:00] what is why a person should uh try to [47:04] attend a flagship event I'm saying try [47:07] because it's not convenient for [47:09] everybody to you know travel to the [47:11] flagship event so why would you suggest [47:13] considering you have attended five plus [47:15] >> well it it's quite Good fun, isn't it? [47:18] >> Yeah, I I agree. I've been to three of [47:20] those. So, [47:21] >> should we start there? So, it's good [47:22] fun. Uh I would say would be one thing. [47:25] I think the networking opportunities are [47:27] much more real. [47:28] >> I don't know if you've ever tried to, I [47:29] don't know, sell your product or [47:31] business on a Zoom call, [47:32] >> that's quite hard, [47:34] >> but doing it in an environment like this [47:35] where you sit down with a coffee and you [47:37] meet other people, that's that just is [47:39] much more effective and much more [47:40] powerful. [47:41] >> Yeah, [47:41] >> there's there's a bit of tourism thrown [47:43] in in my case as well. you know come [47:45] somewhere like India it's a few days off [47:48] and have have a nice look around it's [47:50] wonderful [47:50] >> yeah considering you mentioned tourism [47:53] you are staying here for a while and [47:55] play going places [47:56] >> yeah I'm going to couple of weeks [47:59] >> Kerala yeah [48:00] >> oh my god all the best because it's [48:02] summer almost summer here so yeah [48:04] >> yeah I have a friend who is uh from [48:05] India so I'm going to spend some time [48:07] with you [48:07] >> perfect I I have to agree with you [48:09] because I also travel to flagship events [48:11] also for the networking and then we talk [48:13] about the fact that you can get an [48:15] excuse to travel. [48:16] >> Yeah. I mean, it's not the reason I do [48:18] it, but it's a nice thing that you [48:20] >> Yeah. One of the perks of, you know, [48:21] traveling. Yeah. [48:22] >> Yeah. [48:23] >> Thank Thank you. [48:24] >> Thank you. [48:24] >> Yeah. [48:25] >> Do we have anyone else who has a story [48:27] to share about anything that is word [48:30] like how do they get started? [48:33] >> Please, you want to say something, Leo? [48:36] Okay. [48:43] >> Hello. Uh my name is Mallay Ladu. Uh so [48:48] I started working with WordPress since [48:50] 2009 [48:52] and I've been developing plugins and [48:56] websites. So how I started? So basically [49:01] I wanted to start my website and I was [49:04] looking for different u tools using [49:07] which I can create my own website. [49:11] That's where I came to know about [49:13] WordPress. So I started WordPress [49:16] started using WordPress as a user. [49:19] >> Okay. [49:19] >> Not a developer or engineer but I [49:22] started WordPress as a user and then [49:25] later I came to know that okay we can [49:27] build plugins themes and contribute to [49:30] the community as well. Then I started [49:32] building plugins, attending word camps [49:36] and I've attended um more than 10 word [49:39] camps so far. Uh among which two of the [49:43] flagship one so and I'm an active member [49:46] of the word cam Mumbai. [49:49] >> Yeah. So [51:27] person. Uh okay. So the stage so I used [51:33] to sit in the left corner the end left [51:37] corner every time when I attend the any [51:39] of the events but uh later on I started [51:44] attending meetups. [51:45] >> Yeah. [51:46] >> Okay. and I attending the meet. I was [51:49] attending the meetup and in some of the [51:51] meetups I was a speaker. So you know [51:54] that's like my shyness went away. Uh I [51:58] was as a speaker last year in the world [52:01] Ahmedabad and today as well I'm the [52:04] speaker here in camp Asia. So that's how [52:08] it's transformed my life like you know [52:12] being a shy person who used to sit at [52:15] the last corner of the seat [52:17] >> and now I was sitting in the third row [52:19] if you see that and now I'm speaking [52:22] here. So that's how I transform and with [52:25] the help of the community. So the [52:27] community is so welcoming [52:30] >> that you know it's on your side so you [52:33] don't have to worry about that. I [52:34] totally agree with you that it grows [52:36] your confidence step by step. Yeah. [52:38] Thank you. [52:39] >> Thank you. [52:41] >> Uh [52:42] I see a lot of people coming in. Do you [52:45] have any stories that you can say? I [52:49] think uh can either of you can tell you [52:52] where are you from and share your [52:53] stories? How many word camps have you [52:55] attended? [52:56] I'm talking to you. Not not you. Yeah. I [53:00] think you're from Ahmedabad community. [53:02] Yeah. just go to the mic and tell us [53:05] where uh how many word camps have you [53:07] attended and what is the fun part? What [53:09] is the one thing that you look forward [53:10] to in any word camp? [53:18] Yeah. Okay. So, uh I have attended uh [53:21] many world camps uh in India. So this is [53:24] my first international like word camp [53:27] next year [53:28] >> and I have also volunteered for the word [53:31] camp Ahmedabad uh uh for the last three [53:35] years back to back. So this is the fun [53:39] part and I love to contribute towards [53:42] the WordPress as it's my like bread [53:45] earner because I am also working as a s [53:48] like uh WordPress developer for last uh [53:52] five plus years. [53:53] >> Okay. So that's the fun part. [53:56] >> What's your name? [53:57] >> My name is Ragoasama. [53:58] >> Ra. Okay. Ra. So uh the the pressure [54:02] that you go through days before [54:04] volunteering and the after the rush in [54:07] the event and the relaxation after once [54:10] the thing is done kind of. Yeah. So that [54:14] is what something that gets [54:15] >> that feeling is like much uh like [54:18] amazing feeling that we have made it [54:20] successful event [54:22] >> and we have like uh like [54:25] >> you know what how much effort goes into [54:27] an event. So when you attend a flagship [54:29] event like this you'll be like oh my god [54:31] this is [54:31] >> yeah like this will help to learn how [54:35] things going work how this big events [54:37] happen how this like make it successful. [54:40] >> Yeah. So it's also like a part of the [54:44] experience and this is like like growing [54:48] more and more. [54:49] >> Yeah. [54:50] >> Thank you. [54:51] >> Yeah. Thank you. [54:52] >> Um Okay. Do we have anyone who's not a [54:57] let's say developer or QA or designer [55:01] a non-technical not in I'm talking about [55:04] before the age of era of AI. So right [55:08] now everybody is a technical person if [55:11] you may say so at some level but is [55:14] there anyone who is not a technical [55:16] technical person? [55:19] Nobody. Yeah we have somebody. He's not [55:23] a technical person. Do you want to say [55:24] something about how what do you think of [55:27] events [55:30] in a community perspective? [55:36] Hi. Uh, yeah. So, I'm not a technical. [55:40] >> Introduce yourself first. [55:41] >> Uh, my name is Danti. I am a content [55:45] creator. I run my own content creation [55:47] agency. And if you have to say anything [55:50] about community then I would say only [55:54] one line. I built my whole business with [55:55] the help of community. So I did just [55:59] tons of networking shamelessly asking [56:02] for projects and uh I am associated with [56:05] uh Google developer groups along with [56:07] flutterflow developer groups. I'm this [56:09] is my first work camp Asia and uh yeah [56:13] I'm here to network only to get more [56:15] clients. So yeah, power of community is [56:18] something that I understood on a very [56:20] lately like uh once I started developing [56:22] my business that you do not have to [56:25] necessarily be associated with the [56:28] technology. You just need to know how to [56:32] ask right question to the right people [56:34] and you can get everything you want you [56:37] what you are looking for. So that's the [56:39] power of community and I feel like if a [56:42] non tech person like me can do uh can be [56:44] here then there will be many more who [56:48] will be technically capable they can go [56:51] to a very big heights that they are they [56:54] don't even think of that they are going [56:55] to so that's the power of community [56:59] thank you [57:00] >> thank you Don so that's what I was [57:02] talking about that there are a lot of [57:03] freelancers and a lot of people who do [57:07] uh want to have the networks and uh this [57:10] is as in as in any word cam I'm talking [57:12] about flagships are obviously a bigger [57:15] stage to do that but it's a really good [57:17] place to you know get started and as the [57:20] Mallay said that you go step by step [57:24] once you sit in the corner then you come [57:26] a rows ahead and then sometime you come [57:29] here and if not then you go to people [57:31] with a friend maybe because I'm also an [57:33] intro so I'll always have a friend with [57:35] me who or who he or she will help me out [57:38] to you know who's an extrovert and [57:40] she'll start the conversation. I'll just [57:41] jump into it. So that's kind of [57:43] something you can get started like with [57:47] in places like this. So yeah we have [57:50] about 4 minutes before we start our next [57:52] session. Um so yeah if you have anything [57:55] you want to share with the people please [57:58] do so otherwise we'll be back in 3 [58:00] minutes now not four 3 minutes. Yeah, [58:02] thank you so much. And those who are [58:03] sitting in the backside can can come [58:05] ahead if you want to. And if not, that's [58:07] perfectly all right because mics are in [58:09] the middle. Yeah, thank you. [59:50] Heat. Hey, Heat. [60:45] program is about to begin. Please take [60:47] your seat. [61:19] Hi everyone, good morning. My name is [61:22] Heiml and I'm your host for this [61:25] lightning talks that we are going to [61:27] have for next three talks. Uh we have a [61:31] uh there's one thing that uh if you want [61:33] close captioning we have QR codes. You [61:35] can just scan the QR and follow the [61:37] introdu uh follow the follow the [61:38] instructions. Uh we have our first [61:41] speaker for the lightning talk today is [61:43] her name is Anu Kasha. uh she has six [61:47] plus years of experience and she's a [61:49] senior software developer in mini orange [61:52] and she's been contributing for more [61:54] than two years in core. Uh so yeah uh [61:58] because it's a lightning talk I'm not [61:59] going to take much of your time. AI [62:01] identity governance is a topic and I'll [62:03] ask her to come up on stage. Anukasha. [62:13] Hello. Hello. [62:16] Yeah. [62:18] Wow. So, good morning everybody and a [62:21] very warm welcome. U namaste as we would [62:25] say in India if yeah some of you are not [62:27] from him. So, namaste. [62:29] Yeah. So before starting I would like to [62:32] like give a huge thanks to our [62:34] organizers and for giving me this [62:36] opportunity to speak here also to you [62:39] guys to ch for choosing this session out [62:42] of all the sessions that are here. [62:44] Yeah. So I'm going to talk about AI [62:47] identity governance. [62:50] Um [62:52] yeah so [62:54] we have been having so many sessions [62:57] around AI so far and the last two days [63:00] so many people are talking about what's [63:03] going on in WordPress 7 the AI core [63:06] capabilities that WordPress 7 is going [63:08] to introduce [63:10] uh and yeah we all know that WordPress [63:12] is going AI [63:14] with abilities API coming into WordPress [63:17] 7 [63:19] the opportunity opportunity that we have [63:21] is huge. We can utilize AI to its full [63:25] potential with WordPress now. And to [63:28] even think that 43% of the web can now [63:32] connect to AI and utilize AI for [63:36] anything they want to is like [63:39] mindblowing. [63:40] So [63:42] with abilities API [63:45] I'm I am sure you must have heard this [63:48] word but with abilities API what we can [63:51] actually achieve is like connecting with [63:53] the AI and making AI understand the [63:57] capabilities that a site can have. Let's [64:00] say for your WordPress site you can [64:03] create a post you can delete a post you [64:06] can edit a post. So these are all the [64:08] capabilities that a site has and with [64:11] abilities API AI can understand that [64:13] these capabilities [64:15] using these abilities what we can do is [64:19] maybe create agents. So not to be too [64:22] overwhelmed with the term agents. I'm [64:24] sure you must have heard it and some of [64:26] you might already know what agents are. [64:28] But agents are nothing which might help [64:30] you perform these actions on your site [64:33] or u use these abilities or capabilities [64:37] that WordPress 7 is going to introduce [64:40] and perform actions like creating post [64:42] or deleting post. So you don't actually [64:44] have to manually do it. Maybe you can [64:46] schedule it or you can ask uh [64:48] conditionally of the AI to use these [64:51] capabilities. [64:54] So here are actually just some of the [64:57] agents that I could just think on top of [65:00] my head that we could like uh build and [65:04] this is obviously not the end of it. The [65:07] most exciting one that I can see here is [65:09] the support chatbot for us as well. We [65:12] have a lot of clients who require [65:14] assistance with maybe configuring [65:16] something or they do not know where the [65:18] documentation lies or they do not know [65:20] how to actually use uh the plugins or [65:24] themes or they have some conflicts [65:27] with you know multiple plugins. So yeah, [65:30] that's very exciting because now maybe [65:33] the chatbot agent can maybe handle the [65:36] tier one queries and then the tier 2 [65:40] queries can be escalated to humans. [65:43] Yeah, obviously we can go wild with [65:45] this. So you can automate anything, you [65:48] can simplify your tasks, you can even [65:50] delegate any task to the AI agent. And [65:53] you know the imagination is the limit [65:55] here. You can do anything you want. [66:03] So with the introduction of AI agents, [66:06] you would ideally have a team member who [66:10] is a nonhuman, [66:12] right? So you we already are familiar [66:15] with our colleagues. So now we have a AI [66:17] agent as our colleague. It is actually [66:20] performing actions on your site and [66:23] those actions can be anything as we saw [66:26] in the last slide and these non-team [66:29] members they obviously never clock out [66:32] they can act at machine speed and they [66:35] don't even need passwords to interact [66:37] with your site. So we term these agents [66:41] as nonhuman identities and they are like [66:45] now a part of a team. [66:48] It is important to note that these AI [66:51] agents are different from human users [66:54] and these are some of the points which [66:56] make them differ from human users. Um, [67:00] human users obviously interact with your [67:02] site through a password or an MFA. They [67:05] need to log to your site using their [67:07] username and credentials. Whereas the AI [67:10] agent just simply needs an API key. The [67:14] human user is context aware that is they [67:18] have an intent they are deliberate [67:21] whereas the AI agent they are [67:22] programmatic they will do whatever you [67:25] want them to do. [67:27] A human user is also accountable. [67:32] So by accountability it can be maybe [67:34] legal or they have a personal liability. [67:37] But the AI agents [67:39] that's the real question here. Who is [67:41] accountable for the AI agent actions? [67:44] Who is responsible for them? AI agents [67:48] can simply do anything. But who's to [67:51] say? [67:53] Who's to hold them accountable? [67:56] When AI agents can do whatever they want [67:59] to do, things can go wrong. And by [68:03] wrong, I mean they can go really, really [68:05] wrong. [68:06] There are real things that can go wrong [68:09] like agents. The AI agents can befriend [68:12] other malician malicious AI agents. [68:16] Any agent can act as a trusted agent and [68:20] can befriend your maybe chatbot agent [68:24] and then ask them to do something which [68:27] you know might not be very correct for [68:29] your site. Maybe delete a post. So these [68:31] agents can actually delete your content. [68:34] In terms of WordPress, when we think [68:36] about it, these abilities that we are [68:39] WordPress 7 is going to support these [68:42] abilities do not have currently they do [68:45] not have any way to you know maybe [68:49] restrict those abilities. Once you have [68:50] those abilities, any agent can use them. [68:53] So you they can if you have a delete [68:56] post ability the agent can clearly use [68:59] it and you won't even know about it. [69:03] So the problem here is that agents they [69:07] act without asking [69:09] and their permissions the abilities API [69:13] permissions they are now upon us to [69:16] configure and since there is none right [69:18] now there are no permissions and agents [69:20] can use anything on your WordPress site. [69:27] So that's where with great power ideally [69:31] there should come great accountability. [69:35] So to ensure that these AI agents can [69:38] only do what you want them to do or what [69:41] we want them to do, we need some kind of [69:45] maybe a set of rules or maybe some [69:48] permission sets which can actually tell [69:51] the agent what the agent can do. And [69:54] that is why we come to the topic of [69:58] governance. [70:00] So AI identity governance [70:04] would ideally mean a set of rules or [70:08] safety checks if we call them which can [70:11] hold the AI accountable for its actions [70:15] or whatever it is doing on your site for [70:18] maybe using each ability. The AI has a [70:21] safety check if it can do that or not. [70:27] AI identity governance actually asks us [70:30] to [70:32] answer a three or four simple questions. [70:35] First is what is the AI allowed to do? [70:38] We need to ask this question for all our [70:41] AI agents that would be you know [70:43] interacting with our WordPress sites. [70:46] what the AI agent is allowed to do and [70:49] which agents can actually use your site. [70:54] As I mentioned, there are malicious [70:56] agents as well. So, are are they allowed [70:58] to access your site? No. Right? And you [71:01] should be able to govern them. [71:04] Also, is it safe? [71:07] What is what data can the AI agent [71:10] actually access on your site? All of [71:12] these questions need to be answered. And [71:15] with WordPress 7 now this is the need of [71:17] the R. [71:20] Once these questions are answered [71:24] there might be a world where we can [71:27] actually maybe provide [71:30] certain capabilities to each agent. So [71:33] let's say you decide to create a chatbot [71:37] agent and an SEO agent for your site. [71:40] You want the SEO agent to only have [71:44] certain set of permissions, right? Your [71:46] SEO agent should not be allowed to maybe [71:49] add users to your site or delete them or [71:53] you know update uh user permissions. All [71:57] of that is not allowed. So when [72:00] governance is applied, we have agents [72:04] which have certain role capabilities. [72:08] So we can somehow link those agents to a [72:12] WordPress role and based on that [72:14] WordPress role we can determine what is [72:16] allowed for that agent and what is not [72:18] allowed for that agent. So an SEO agent [72:21] should be allowed to read your pages and [72:23] posts. It can maybe update the post meta [72:26] but it should definitely not manage your [72:28] users and settings. Similarly a [72:30] operations agent can maybe run backups [72:33] but it should never touch posts or [72:36] pages. So that's what governance allows [72:39] us to do and this is an open challenge [72:42] or question for all of us with AI coming [72:45] into picture in WordPress 7. We need [72:48] these safeguards or safety checks [72:53] and that is where I leave you with [72:56] today. [72:58] These are some of the points that we [73:00] should always remember. Uh AI agents are [73:04] not users. They are non-human [73:06] identities. 43% of the web will support [73:09] AI natively now and governance is what [73:12] we must look into. [73:15] Every agent should be ideally defined [73:17] with a role and scoped abilities. Not [73:20] all agents should have access to all the [73:22] abilities that you [73:24] have on your WordPress site. [73:27] Default should be deny all like any [73:30] agent default they can't use any [73:33] abilities but you should be allowed also [73:36] to you know maybe grant some privileges [73:40] to specific agents [73:43] and the last point is also that we need [73:45] to look into we need to audit every [73:48] action that the AI agent is performing [73:50] on a site so that actually helps us [73:53] understand what AI agents are capable of [73:56] doing on your site and then we can maybe [73:59] you know determine if these should be [74:01] able to do those or not. [74:06] Yeah. So that's the next challenge and [74:09] question for WordPress itself [74:12] and thank you if you have any questions [74:16] let's talk about it and this is my QR [74:19] for LinkedIn if you want to connect [74:21] please. [74:23] Can I ask one question [74:32] >> time for the questions but you can [74:33] obviously find an Anukasha in uh [74:36] sponsors area and she'll be happy to [74:39] answer all your questions. So it is [74:40] perfectly all you can ask her but not [74:42] just on the stage because we have next [74:44] session starting but just a minute [74:46] before that we would like to give you a [74:48] moment a small momentto [74:52] >> a token of appreciation from WordPress [74:55] community. Thank you so much. And [74:57] talking about this particular topic, [74:59] there's so much to talk about. [75:04] Thank you so much. [75:05] >> Thank you. [75:12] >> Uh [75:14] next we have Chiharu. Um next we have [75:18] somebody who is uh 14 plus years of [75:21] experience and like we are seeing all [75:24] the time people with the photographer [75:26] you must have seen her her if you have [75:27] been to any flagship events because [75:30] she's one of those people who who core [75:33] into the culture and community part of [75:37] this things. So we have uh Chiharu uh uh [75:41] she's going to tell us about preserving [75:43] community and you know what it looks [75:46] like to look at word camp events through [75:48] the viewfinders. So we'll have her uh [75:51] she was one of the lead organizers for [75:54] uh last year's can word camp canai. Uh [75:58] please come on stage. Yeah. [76:15] One more. [76:18] Thank you. [76:25] Hi everyone. Today I direct share how I [76:29] take photos to keep the community [76:32] culture and memories. [76:35] I'm Chihar Nagati basely in Osaka, Japan [76:40] work. I work remotely for Tokyo based [76:43] digital agency specializing in WordPress [76:49] community 40 years in the WordPress [76:52] community. organizer of the world [76:55] concord press meetup, lead organizer of [76:59] world campai 2025 [77:02] hobby. I love taking photographer [77:11] but I'm not professional photographer. [77:16] I've been in the WordPress community for [77:19] 14 years, always searching for my own [77:22] way to contribute. [77:25] I first joined the WordPress community [77:27] in 2011. [77:30] I started as a regular attendee then be [77:33] became an organizer of my local [77:36] WordPress meetup and the local and the [77:40] lead organizer of a word camp with over [77:43] 400 attendees. [77:47] I'm not a developer. I can't build a so [77:51] core software. I can't write magic code. [77:56] Around me were brilliant engineer [77:59] engineers and architects. [78:02] Their speed and skills amazed me. So I [78:06] kept asking myself, what can I do here? [78:13] March 11, 2011, everything changed. [78:17] The great East Japan earthquake took [78:20] homes. [78:22] The tsunami took entire homes, entities. [78:26] So much was taken from the people who [78:29] lived there, their family and friends, [78:33] their lives, their lives, familiar [78:36] places, and everyday moments. [78:40] they once through were normal. [78:43] The most painful loss was the memories [78:48] they lost. They lost. [78:53] I learned about the story [78:57] after the great East Japan earthquake. [79:01] When the massive tsunami has passed, [79:05] people from all over the world [79:09] came to help as volunteers. [79:12] They didn't just clean up the debris. [79:17] Among the broken things, they found many [79:21] mad photographs with no owners. [79:26] These photographs were covered in mud, [79:30] but they still held held pieces of every [79:35] everyday life that had been lost. [79:40] The brandeers carefully washed each [79:43] photograph one by one [79:46] and tried to return them to their [79:49] owners. [79:51] One volunteer said, "We can't build [79:54] homes again yet, but [79:58] even one photograph can help people [80:00] remember the family they lost. [80:04] A photograph can bring back not only [80:08] memories, [80:10] but also the emotions connected to them. [80:16] It's not just a record. [80:19] It has a powerful of bring back people [80:22] hearts and memories. [80:25] That was something I truly came to the [80:28] understand. [80:34] I gently capture those moments. [80:38] Pressing the shutter is more than just [80:40] recording data. [80:43] It's quietly carry and atmosphere the [80:47] sounds and the feeling into the future [80:52] to capture now is it connect to it to [80:56] the future [80:58] that why I chose to capture the [81:01] community now [81:06] can we keep the soul of a community [81:11] I can't write magic code, but I had a [81:16] camera. [81:18] Just as photographs [81:20] keep family memories, [81:23] they also keep a community's culture. [81:28] I didn't pick up my camera just to [81:31] record things. [81:34] I capture the energy of the WordPress [81:37] community. [81:40] In 2015, I choose to contribute [81:45] not with code. [81:47] I threw my camera. [81:50] I started as a brand photographer at [81:53] local word camps in Japan. [81:57] I car to carry the energy of the [82:00] community into the future. [82:06] I joined the global audio BDM team for W [82:10] camp Asia and W camp Europe. [82:14] I don't speak English well. [82:17] So I felt a barrier again. [82:21] But we shared a love for WordPress and [82:25] photograph. [82:28] This helped me get past the language [82:31] barrier. [82:33] that that team welcomed me warmly [82:38] through my camera. I saw the WordPress [82:41] community connected around the world. [82:48] The energy of the venue, [82:51] the people who support opensource [82:54] culture [82:57] and the value of the WordPress [83:00] community. [83:02] The p the power of the moment. Something [83:06] that worth cannot fully express. [83:11] My camera captures all of this from a [83:15] wide view. [83:18] Every time I press the shutter. I [83:21] believe these photographs became a part [83:24] of community memory. [83:30] A micro view means focus on the people. [83:35] The serious eyes of someone [83:37] contributing. [83:40] The face of someone listening carefully [83:42] to a session. [83:45] I may not be able to photograph the code [83:49] itself, [83:51] but I can capture the passion behind it. [83:56] In those moments, there is a love for [83:59] WordPress and deep respect for the [84:02] community. [84:04] Through my camera, I quietly capture [84:08] each of those moments. [84:14] I don't just focus on the speakers on [84:18] stage. [84:20] I focus on volunteers [84:23] and the natural smiles of the community [84:27] conversations in the far away people [84:31] meeting again [84:33] the hard work of volunteers. [84:36] I don't just photograph special people. [84:41] I photograph everyone who is there. [84:45] I keep looking for moment that only I [84:48] can see. [84:51] As both a member and a long time [84:55] organizer, I can note these these [84:59] moments. [85:01] The spirit of our community is alive in [85:04] the every moment. [85:09] People said to me, "What a great photo. [85:14] I will use this for my profile photo. [85:19] Thank you for taking taking this. Every [85:23] time I hear this word, [85:26] I feel that my photograph is my [85:29] photograph makes people in the community [85:33] smile [85:35] just like lighting code. Maybe my [85:40] photographs help people too. [85:44] I thought to myself [85:47] even I don't write a code maybe I can [85:51] still contribute. [85:55] I want people who has never been to word [85:58] camp to say [86:01] that looks fun. I want to go there. [86:05] A photograph is the most accessible [86:08] invitation to the world of WordPress. [86:12] One photograph capturing the joy of [86:16] community [86:18] can be the first step for someone new. [86:22] Someday I hope to hear someone you say. [86:26] I came to word camp because I saw your [86:30] photographs. [86:32] That would be the great reward for me. [86:36] Just like someone helped me 40 years [86:39] ago. [86:41] I want to take photographs that gently [86:44] invite someone to join us. [86:49] The event ends in a few days, [86:53] but the photographs stay forever. [86:58] They show how we came together, how we [87:01] learned, and how we helped each other. [87:06] Photographs take that happen today and [87:09] carry it into the future. [87:13] When we took at photographs later, we [87:16] remember the atmosphere, the sound, [87:21] the and even the feeling of our [87:23] conversations. [87:25] Photographs keep the community as it is [87:30] today. [87:32] code builds WordPress. [87:35] Community builds culture [87:37] and we as volunteer photographers keep [87:41] the moment. [87:45] You don't always have to write code to [87:47] contribute. [87:50] What is your special skill? Is it [87:54] writing? Is it speaking? Is it [87:57] organizing? [88:00] Find what you love and you share it with [88:03] the community. [88:06] That is your contribution. [88:09] Contributing means sharing what you are [88:12] good at. [88:13] You don't need to worry about what you [88:17] can do. Contributing is about sharing [88:22] your passion and your skills. [88:25] I believe your special skill will become [88:28] a part of the community. [88:34] What we capture today will become a [88:38] memory tomorrow. [88:40] I will keep passing the shutter. I don't [88:44] take photographs just for myself. [88:48] I take the them for someone who will see [88:52] them it five or 10 years. [88:56] It carries new of the new amazing [88:59] community into the future. [89:01] Thank you. I will see you through my [89:04] viewfinder. [89:10] >> Just wait a minute. Just wait a minute. [89:12] >> Okay. [89:14] >> Thank you so much. and I actually found [89:16] myself in one of your photographs. So, [89:19] thank you so much from the community and [89:21] you are doing a amazing work with [89:23] capturing memories. Thank you. [89:25] >> Thank you. [89:38] Hi guys. I see a lot of you are sitting [89:40] back there. You can come come ahead and [89:42] you know fill up the space. uh since we [89:45] are not asking uh allowing questions you [89:48] can find Shira Chiharu in the networking [89:50] area and you can get started with the [89:52] community if you are just a photographer [89:54] or if you are somebody who enjoys [89:56] photography uh those who want to learn [89:59] how the community starts we have [90:01] somebody who's going to be the next [90:03] speaker for us his name is Stephen he's [90:06] 20 plus years experience he's building [90:08] community and he's one of those people [90:11] in Uganda who is getting people started [90:13] with the technology technology in the [90:14] first place. So, we would want him to uh [90:18] want him on stage. Stefan, please come. [90:33] >> Hi y'all. [90:35] Namaste. [90:37] >> Do I say it right? [90:41] Building WordPress communities. [90:45] Today is the Ugandan story. [90:49] I am Steven Dumba from the WordPress [90:52] community of Uganda. [90:55] A little about me. [90:59] I am a high school teacher, [91:02] 20 years teaching and um because of my [91:08] being in the computer lab most of the [91:11] time, I somehow learned how to repair [91:14] computers. [91:15] It's a skill I have on the side. And [91:18] then I also do some [91:21] web design [91:23] using WordPress. But most especially I'm [91:27] taking on this skill to the younger ones [91:32] especially in WordPress. Yeah. On the [91:34] other side I also [91:37] work with Moses and many others in [91:40] growing the community the WordPress [91:42] community in Uganda. I have spoken at [91:46] events, WordPress events. I have [91:49] organized WordPress events. In fact, I'm [91:51] organizing the next um website projects [91:54] competition which is in June. I started [91:57] out as a volunteer. [91:59] But one of the things we are doing is [92:02] the a thousand WordPress ninjas. The [92:06] demand for WordPress knowledge in our [92:08] country is too high and the meetups and [92:12] the word camps are not enough. So what [92:14] do we do? We visit schools [92:18] and get on those young kids who really [92:21] want to learn WordPress and an afternoon [92:24] session is enough to get them started. [92:28] But let me say something a little about [92:31] Uganda. [92:35] It's a landlocked country in East [92:36] Africa. [92:38] 44 million people. We are the source of [92:41] the mighty river Nile. 10 national parks [92:45] for those who want to take a tour around [92:47] Uganda. We are known for gorilla [92:49] trekking with half of the world's [92:52] gorilla population in Uganda and we have [92:56] the beautiful Equator [92:58] moving across our [93:01] country. Now for our community, [93:06] we have [93:08] over the last almost 10 years come up [93:11] with nine WordPress meetups in that [93:15] small country. The first one was [93:18] WordPress campaign [93:25] in 2017. [93:28] But in 2018, I was introduced to [93:32] WordPress. So I went to Word Camp, I [93:35] think with Moses. I'm here with Moses. [93:38] We went to the first meetup in Campala. [93:41] No, sorry, it wasn't a meet up. It was a [93:42] word camp. And it was amazing. [93:48] It helped me go away from the [93:50] traditional classroom [93:53] and then it showed me what was in the [93:56] field. As teachers of ICT introducing [94:00] computer lessons to these young kids, [94:03] they'll ask you what can I do with this [94:06] knowledge? What can I be in future? The [94:08] truth is we are getting this knowledge [94:10] from the classes. I mean from the books, [94:12] from the textbooks you can be this, you [94:15] can be that you can be this, you can be [94:17] that. But it was all theoretical. [94:20] Coming to WordPress, I started hearing [94:23] of SEO specialists, security [94:26] specialists. Now it started making real [94:29] sense. That was at my first my first uh [94:34] word camp in 2018. And then when we [94:38] heard that there was a word camp in 2019 [94:41] in ENT, [94:42] Arthur gave me the opportunity. I was a [94:44] beginner but Arthur gives me this [94:46] opportunity to [94:48] speak at word camp. I was like you think [94:52] is it possible? You see there was a form [94:54] you fill in your name your WordPress [94:58] uh your username a few things but I had [95:01] only learned about WordPress in no in [95:04] December of 2018 [95:07] and then in 2019 early 2019 I see a call [95:11] for speakerhip. I was like, I've been [95:14] talking to a kid. So, can I speak? I'll [95:17] speak. And then I get an email that [95:19] you're going to speak at word camp in [95:22] TV. That experience is another story. [95:26] But in 2019, [95:29] we had word camp. We we started a meet [95:32] up in Ginger. [95:34] 2022 [95:36] Masaka. Then we have LRA Kam Mukono. [95:40] Moses whom you see here is the lead for [95:42] word camp word press meet up. [95:46] Then we come to Gulu Luo and the newest [95:50] baby is Calo. To the ordinary person, [95:55] these are just dots. What you're seeing [95:59] there, you're just seeing another person [96:00] just see dots. But the person in the [96:03] community, a person in the WordPress [96:05] community, people like us, the teachers [96:09] who are [96:11] pushing getting this knowledge from us [96:13] and giving it to the next generation, we [96:16] know the power of what those dots is [96:19] doing. Our students now are not simply [96:23] consumers of knowledge. Now they know at [96:26] an early age that they too can be [96:31] creators. [96:33] How does this start? [96:35] After World Camp Comp Campa in 2018, [96:42] of course the sessions were too many. [96:46] Five minute install. We were we were so [96:48] interested we went we installed. The [96:50] next minute things we went we installed [96:53] things. The next minute, plugins. We [96:55] went and installed plugins [96:58] and everything looked simple. At the end [97:01] of the day, we didn't remember where we [97:03] started. [97:05] So, I said it was only 5 minutes and we [97:07] installed WordPress. I looked for ZAMP [97:10] left, right, and center. And I was kind [97:12] of confused. [97:14] So, what do we do? [97:17] The picture on the right, that person in [97:20] in purple in a purple shirt with a tie, [97:23] he's called Roas Mukar. [97:26] He deserves our credit. Can we give a a [97:29] hands a hand of applause to Roas Mukar? [97:33] This gentleman here attended Word Camp [97:37] Comp Campala 2017. He is a teacher like [97:39] us. And when he was there, he was also [97:42] impressed by the power of WordPress. and [97:44] he was like I think I should invite [97:47] other teachers to the next word camp. So [97:51] as members of the ICT teachers [97:53] association of Uganda, Roas tells us [97:56] guys do you know what there is a tool I [97:59] have discovered that you can use to [98:01] create very beautiful [98:04] websites in no time. [98:07] We were teaching web design but in a [98:10] very crude way. I had almost 10 years of [98:14] experience as a teacher but we were I [98:18] even feel ashamed that I was teaching [98:20] web design. How I was doing that you [98:23] don't have to know. So when Rogers [98:25] discovers WordPress he says 2018 all [98:29] teachers we are going to word campa. [98:33] So he grabs us and takes us to word [98:36] campa [98:38] by force. [98:40] We did the five minute install the [98:43] plugins we were impressed everything was [98:46] doable. So at the end of the day when we [98:49] are lost we don't know where Zamp is [98:52] what WordPress was bringing errors left [98:54] right and center we invite Roas do you [98:56] know what now you come and give us a day [98:59] session so Roas comes and what you see [99:02] there is my small computer lab and the [99:07] team you see there I'm one of them Roas [99:10] comes and gives us a full day of [99:13] training in WordPress so we installed [99:16] WordPress the first time [99:19] installed a second time uninstalled and [99:22] then slowly by slowly we got we we got [99:25] used to it. I made a very beautiful [99:28] website [99:30] on that day and the steps you looked [99:33] clear. I had written down the steps and [99:36] I even asked him now make for me some [99:38] videos and Roas did these videos for us. [99:42] Rogers you see there has helped us. He [99:45] introduced us to WordPress and we didn't [99:48] stop at that. [99:50] We always ask him Rogers how shall we [99:52] ever pay you? And Roger says [99:57] the next generation we are teachers. So [100:00] what are we supposed to do? What can we [100:03] do more bigger than the curricul I mean [100:05] beyond the curriculum? What can we do? [100:08] And that's what we are doing [100:11] here. [100:13] We sat as teachers [100:16] and say now that these word camps are [100:18] here when you're there someone comes and [100:21] talks all the jargon you're fresh from [100:24] class and you don't understand a lot [100:26] about what they are saying. You might [100:27] pick one or two but you were like if we [100:30] are to take this knowledge to other to [100:34] the classes [100:36] we have to build something a way that [100:40] teachers can easily put uh transfer this [100:43] knowledge to the learners. So we asked [100:46] the organizers then uh we had Casia, we [100:50] had Lawrence and we told them is there a [100:53] way we can make these word camps teacher [100:56] friendly and they were like no there's a [100:58] teachers track. [101:00] So it was my first time to hear about a [101:02] a teacher track but I tell you what you [101:06] get hundreds of teachers into a word [101:09] camp. So while the experts are talking [101:12] about CLI plugins, build your first [101:15] plugin, we are like that is for you. And [101:18] in our teachers track, [101:21] we are going through the installation [101:24] process from scratch. We are going [101:27] through our syllabus, our curriculum. [101:29] How do I take this? We are making lesson [101:31] plans. How best can we teach these kids [101:35] WordPress? And so that's how we had [101:38] teachers tracks at our word camps and it [101:41] did it made wonders for us and we were [101:44] saying this is not enough. The teachers [101:46] were like can I come with my students [101:50] we found that sometimes what we need may [101:54] not necessarily be what the students [101:55] need. So we know the students needs. [101:58] What we did we started doing [102:00] studentfriendly [102:02] word camps. That is why you'll find a [102:05] word camp in Uganda with 200 teenagers, [102:11] studentfriendly [102:13] word camps. And then not all teachers [102:16] can come to a word camp. So what do we [102:18] do? We have a a session on Tuesday [102:21] evenings called each one teach one teach [102:24] one because we know what I know. Perhaps [102:28] Moses doesn't know what Moses knows [102:31] perhaps I don't. So each of us has a [102:33] little bit of knowledge we have about [102:35] WordPress. So on a Tuesday evening [102:39] on Zoom, we get there and I'll tell them [102:44] about a new plug-in I found and I'll [102:46] take them through the process of maybe [102:48] building a lesson management system and [102:51] then on another Tuesday another person [102:53] will come and tell them this is how to [102:55] build beautiful forms. So every Tuesday [102:59] throughout the year we are teaching each [103:02] other. No expert each of you get just [103:05] one piece of knowledge that you know [103:07] come on Tuesday and share with us and [103:10] then I talked about the thousand [103:11] WordPress ninjas where we go to schools [103:14] across the country introducing WordPress [103:16] to the learners. Then we have influenced [103:20] the curriculum body in our country and [103:23] for the past four years WordPress is [103:27] integrated into the high school [103:30] curriculum. [103:32] Then now there are kids who have gone [103:34] beyond the level of just doing simple [103:37] websites and they are creating beautiful [103:40] website. So what did we do? We organized [103:42] the website projects competition. In [103:45] fact, we have one in June. So, kids come [103:49] on a certain day, one day and show you [103:53] websites that are created to solve [103:56] societal problems. And then WordPress [104:00] campus connect was talked about. These [104:02] have started in Uganda. What are the [104:06] plans for the future? One, [104:10] we have engaged the teacher training [104:11] institutions across Uganda and they are [104:14] going to integrate WordPress into the [104:16] curriculum such that every teacher who [104:19] graduates moving forward at least comes [104:22] out when they know how to use WordPress. [104:26] Uh just the other day, Moses Cass and [104:30] and many others were introducing [104:32] WordPress to university [104:36] students. [104:37] And then [104:39] to celebrate all this, next year we are [104:43] having Word Camp Uganda to celebrate 10 [104:48] years [104:50] of WordPress in Uganda. We are going to [104:52] make sure we have the 10th meetup [104:56] and it's going to be a celebration of [104:58] intentional and inclusive WordPress [105:02] communities in Uganda. [105:05] For me to be here, I want to send my [105:06] hugs to Adit there. Thank you so much. [105:11] Yogesh, thank you so much. Moses Kasa, [105:15] thank you. Megan, I can't see you. Megan [105:18] here and Harmony. If it wasn't for these [105:21] people, I wouldn't have made it. Thank [105:24] you so much and thank you community for [105:28] coming here. I remain Steven Dumba, the [105:32] restless teacher. [105:42] Thank you so much. That was I'm I'm so [105:45] glad I was an MC otherwise I might have [105:46] missed out this session. And I'm so I [105:49] won't say just inspired. It's a [105:51] beautiful story as well. I am really [105:54] glad that I got to know about the story [105:56] and what all that you did. Thank you so [105:58] much. And this is a small appreciation [106:00] token from the community [106:07] and all the best for the Uganda word [106:10] cam. Really? Thank you so much. [106:13] >> Thank you. [106:13] >> Yeah. Thank you guys. Uh we have a 10 [106:17] minutes break. Uh so if you want to have [106:19] a break you can go out and otherwise you [106:22] can continue. We have Mallay coming up [106:24] next in 10 minutes. Meanwhile uh those [106:27] who were here might know that we shared [106:30] stories about word camps uh in the last [106:33] break that we had. So if you want to [106:35] share a story we also asked people who [106:38] are here that how many word camps they [106:40] have attended. So if there's anybody who [106:41] has attended five plus word camps, they [106:43] can just raise your hands and yeah just [106:46] tell us how many word camps have you [106:47] attended. Uh first your name and then [106:53] >> Hello. [106:53] >> Hi. [106:54] >> Yeah. So my name is Pritham. Uh I am [106:57] basically a content creator basically [106:59] agriculture content creator. So I got [107:02] introduced to WordPress in year 2019. [107:06] Okay. uh before that I was using blogger [107:08] and my web blog which already shut down. [107:11] So as I am already a tech guy but due to [107:15] some uh career change I chose to go [107:18] towards the agriculture but ultimately I [107:20] came to the tech again due to the word [107:23] camp. So 2022 was my first time when I [107:26] have attended the word camp nagpur and [107:30] uh got a chance to speak at word campam [107:32] nagpur at my first word camp. So it was [107:35] my word camp starting journey. [107:37] Thereafter I have volunteered, organized [107:41] uh attended and also uh as a media [107:44] partner represented to multiple word [107:46] camps including world camp Nagpur, [107:48] Kolapur, Mumbai, Keral, Bhopal and this [107:53] is my first flagship event which is [107:55] world camp Asia. So yeah very amazing [107:58] experience I have at every word camp [108:00] even I attend multiple time or even I go [108:04] meet the same people but every time W is [108:07] different uh something uh knowledge of [108:09] exchange is different and every time it [108:12] feels something new something exciting [108:14] so it's a very amazing experience for me [108:17] and I I wish everyone should attend at [108:20] least word camp as a informal conference [108:23] or the tech event [108:24] >> thank you that is one inspiring ing [108:26] story like you started from uh a speaker [108:31] yourself then like that doesn't happen [108:33] sorry that doesn't happen to everyone [108:34] but then you have volunteered and attend [108:36] attended so many events so [108:38] >> yeah so my main inspiration was the Mr. [108:42] Rafishek Desh Pande who is the lead [108:44] organizer of world camp Nagpur community [108:46] one of the active contributor so got to [108:49] introduce from the Nagpur community [108:51] first of all uh thereafter they inspired [108:54] me to uh speak at the word camp actually [108:57] I was willing to attend that word camp [108:59] and I had submitted my another take [109:02] topic but as my career shift was very uh [109:05] what do you can say dynamic let's say I [109:07] was a uh morati medium guy then I chose [109:12] science then I wanted to do engineering [109:15] but had to do the uh what we can say uh [109:18] basic agriculture again I come to the [109:21] take part so they told me you just say [109:24] your story say the everything which you [109:26] have already talked into the Joto video [109:28] also so this similar kind of story my [109:31] real life story I have represented at [109:33] Nagpur and yes this was my first time [109:35] when I was speaking at any word camp [109:38] >> thank you that's one one thing to get [109:41] started you how to get networking, [109:42] somebody to hold your hands and then [109:43] somebody comes to you, you'll be really [109:45] helpful, you know how to get started. [109:47] Thank you. Thank you. [109:48] >> Anybody else? [109:51] >> Do we have anybody else who wants to [109:53] share? Okay. Not as big a story as him. [109:57] But if anybody else wants to share [109:59] anything, no worries. We have few [110:01] minutes before we have our another [110:04] speaker coming up. Thank you guys. [110:06] Enjoy. [110:09] Heat. [110:28] Heat. [110:49] Everybody [111:05] feeling [111:12] you. [111:27] I feel [111:32] feel. [111:43] I feel [112:06] so good. [112:58] Feel [113:09] feeling [113:13] feel. [115:29] Hey, hey, hey. [115:59] program is about to begin. Please take [116:01] your seat and [116:36] Good morning everyone. Hope you are [116:38] having wonderful time at word camp so [116:40] far. So I am Dulshia. I'm from India. [116:45] I'll be your MC for the next few [116:47] sessions. So there is a quick note for [116:50] you all. Closed captions will be [116:52] available for you. Please scan the QR [116:55] code and follow the instructions for the [116:57] QR. [116:59] Now we have the session the art of [117:02] integrations making WordPress work with [117:05] everything. And our speaker is Mallay [117:09] Ladu. [117:10] Malai Ladu is a lead engineer. He is a [117:13] fullstack developer and longtime [117:16] WordPress contributor with strong [117:18] experience building scalable solutions [117:21] and integrations across modern web [117:23] technologies. [117:25] So please join me in welcoming Mr. Malai [117:28] Ladu with a huge round of applause. [117:34] >> Thank you. [117:44] All right, good morning everyone. [117:47] Okay, so today I'm going to talk about [117:51] something [117:52] that quietly defines whether your [117:55] product or business succeed or not. [117:59] So [118:00] many times when you build a product or [118:03] talk to the customers or you know uh [118:07] have some ideas or want to build [118:09] something at that time you decide or you [118:12] think about whether [118:15] something is going to work with [118:16] something or not. So every time when you [118:19] talk to the customer it ask you does it [118:23] integrate with X [118:30] So how many of you heard this thing when [118:34] you you know talk to customers or pitch [118:38] your product does it work with this [118:41] system or does it work with this system [118:43] how many of you heard this thing [118:46] okay great so that's a common question [118:50] people ask right [118:53] so this simple question decide decides [118:57] whether your product will succeed or not [119:00] and it's all about you know like how [119:02] people decide whether I should use this [119:05] product or this product it's based on [119:09] this question does it fit into my [119:12] workflow does it work with whatever I [119:14] have so it's the simple question [119:20] decides the buying decision retention [119:23] and the growth so we you know directly [119:26] we can't measure this impact but it's a [119:29] big impact of this question [119:32] so let me share you one story uh so I [119:35] built one donation system and then you [119:40] know I was really proud of what I have [119:43] built and I was so um you know [119:47] energetic like or maybe I can say that I [119:50] was so enthusiast to share my product [119:52] with others when I met one customer. [119:57] Okay. So, he heard whatever I built and [120:01] he saw whatever I've done and then [120:05] quietly asked me, "It's nice, but can it [120:09] connect with this?" [120:13] That's hit me re, you know, that hits me [120:17] hard. And that's when I realized that [120:20] features don't win but ecosystem do [120:26] right. So that's the thing and now [120:29] WordPress has changed a lot. Uh so in [120:33] earlier days u it was a it was only for [120:37] the blogging thing right so it was a [120:40] standalone system and now it's it's a [120:44] connected system. So if you if you use [120:48] WordPress, you want to dis you want to [120:50] do this thing that thing like you want [120:52] to build an e-commerce store, you want [120:55] to build a video platform, right? So you [121:01] start looking at the plugins, correct? [121:03] Or the themes. And so it's not a [121:08] standalone product anymore. It's a part [121:10] of the ecosystem. [121:15] Okay. So, uh like today morning like [121:19] when I was coming here and uh one of my [121:23] non- tech friend was with me during [121:25] traveling and he asked me like where are [121:29] you going? So I said I am going to Jio [121:33] Jio center and uh I I'll be speaking [121:36] about the integration and all the stuff. [121:39] So being a non tech guy he did not [121:41] understand what I said. So he asked me [121:44] like what exactly it is you know so [121:48] that's why uh that's when I uh shared a [121:51] story or the you know I I asked him like [121:54] imagine uh you go to the small [121:57] restaurant [121:59] right so in the small restaurant uh in [122:02] the small restaurant the small staff [122:06] okay uh you you go to the counter placed [122:10] an order orders goes to the kitchen and [122:14] order order prepared and served to you. [122:18] So that's the simple setup like kitchen [122:21] staff is happy, manager is happy, even [122:24] customer is also happy because he got [122:26] the food, kitchen staff made the food [122:29] and it's delivered properly. [122:33] Now [122:36] this small restaurant grows after a few [122:40] years. Okay. So now more footfall will [122:45] come and [122:49] it's it's not the same system it used to [122:53] be right because if I go to the counter [122:56] so there is a long queue because there [122:59] are more many customers and then I have [123:02] to wait once the order is delivered to [123:05] the person behind person before me and [123:09] then I get my order delivered to me. And [123:14] as the restaurants become popular, [123:18] right? So customers starts asking, do [123:22] you do you accept online orders? Do you [123:25] have digital payment system? Okay. So do [123:29] do you deliver the food to my place? [123:34] That's when you know uh restaurant [123:37] owners start using more system. One for [123:41] delivery, one for order placing, one for [123:45] inventory and one for the payments. So [123:48] they start adding more system to their [123:50] businesses. [123:52] But here's the problem. [123:54] This system they they added more [123:57] systems, okay? But they are not [123:59] interconnected with each other. So [124:02] instead of simplifying the workflow, [124:06] they made it more complex because [124:10] inventory went out. the you know order [124:14] placing system doesn't know about that [124:15] and it's it keeps getting tracking ad uh [124:19] orders [124:21] and um so [124:24] staff is frustrated because they keeps [124:27] getting order but they don't have the [124:29] inventory for that and they the ordering [124:32] system doesn't know that okay we don't [124:34] have that material ready with us and the [124:38] payments you know payment fails even [124:41] they don't know [124:42] Orders keeps coming but payment fails. [124:46] So customer is also frustrated because [124:49] they did not get the food delivered to [124:52] that doorstep. [124:54] That's when this [124:57] restaurant owners realize that adding [125:00] more system doesn't solve a problem if [125:04] you just adding more systems. But if you [125:09] connect well this system then it [125:12] actually solves a real problem. [125:16] So [125:18] what is an integration? [125:21] Integration is [125:25] a bridge between two systems. [125:30] Yes. But beyond that, I would say [125:33] integration is a bridge between [125:36] workflows. [125:39] Right? So [125:42] what you want to achieve based on that [125:45] you can decide what integration I should [125:47] build. Right? So the same workflows can [125:52] be solved or solved by many other [125:56] systems. So first we need to define [125:58] which workflows I need to bridge [126:01] between. [126:07] So why it matters? So if you see the [126:11] restaurant example or the story they [126:15] added more systems but did not integrate [126:18] well or did not talk to each other. So [126:21] instead of reducing the friction between [126:25] systems it add complexity to the system [126:29] and that's when it fails. So instead of [126:32] doing more automation. [126:35] Yep. So instead of doing the automation [126:38] their manual work [126:41] like increases. [126:44] So for the real example uh how many of [126:47] you are business owner here? [126:50] Okay, [126:52] great. So, you have a e-commerce store [126:55] maybe and maybe you have a product or [126:58] something to sell, right? People come to [127:00] your website, place an order, right? [127:04] Now, you want to be in touch with them. [127:06] So you want to add them into a [127:08] particular list of newsletter and every [127:12] month you want to send some newsletter [127:15] to or some product product insights or [127:20] you know some marketing things you need [127:22] to do. So this is all about the [127:25] integrating the system right. So you may [127:28] ask that okay I don't want to use the [127:30] in-house system I want to integrate with [127:32] some external system. Yep. So you can do [127:36] that. [127:40] All right. So type of integrations. So [127:43] you know um there are multiple types of [127:46] integrations. So we we talk about the [127:49] APIs and the web hooks. So how many of [127:53] you are developers in this room? Great. [127:56] So we must have heard about the APIs, [127:59] right? And the web hooks as well. So [128:02] what is APIs? like in in if I if if I [128:04] talk about the restaurant thing. Okay. [128:07] So when you go to restaurant you ask for [128:10] the menu card. So this is the API call [128:15] right and whenever the orders is [128:19] prepared and it comes to you this is the [128:22] web hook. Very simple term correct. So [128:26] you don't have to ask every time that [128:28] okay is my order prepared or not? Is my [128:31] order prepared or not? Is my order [128:32] prepared or not? Right? You want to ask [128:35] only if it's get delayed after some [128:38] time. Right? Otherwise, whenever it's [128:41] prepared, it comes to you. That's the [128:43] way book. [128:46] So, how you decide what to use and what [128:49] not to use. So, if I want to say that [128:54] rest is something [128:56] that you want a full control over it. [129:00] So if you go to restaurant you have a [129:03] control whether you should ask for the [129:06] menu card or not right so that's the [129:09] rest APIs so whatever data you want to [129:13] fetch or update or something like that [129:15] you can use the rest APIs and web hooks [129:18] it's a reactive system so if you build a [129:21] system where something something is [129:24] happened in your system and you won't [129:26] allow others to do something with that [129:30] particular action then you can use web [129:33] hook in your system right so we are in [129:36] the WordPress ecosystem so we know uh [129:38] like the actions and filters right so [129:42] actions are sort of web hooks so [129:45] something happened in your workflow and [129:48] you want to do something with that [129:51] workflow that's where the web hook comes [129:56] okay so generally Generally we uh [130:01] you know that that's the hidden problem [130:05] we have. [130:07] So when we design a system we think that [130:11] okay [130:12] uh let's let's build for now right. So [130:16] you have the APIs that you want to [130:19] integrate [130:20] and u then what you do like you start [130:24] exploring those APIs the third party [130:27] APIs and you integrate it with that [130:30] scenario particular scenario and it [130:32] works then you said okay that's that's [130:36] done okay we don't think about the scale [130:40] like what happen if that third party [130:43] system went down [130:46] Right? So what will we do? So we [130:48] generally don't think about that. But if [130:50] you design the system [130:53] okay so if you design so design in a way [130:57] that it scales [131:00] right. So that's the you know hidden [131:03] problem and generally we don't you know [131:05] think about that but I think when you [131:07] start building the system we should [131:09] first think about that okay [131:13] does it like is this is work for now [131:16] this works for now will it work later as [131:19] well or not [131:21] now how we how we think in the in that [131:26] direction [131:27] so we need to think in different layers. [131:31] So you know uh one is the core product [131:33] which is your own product. [131:36] The another is the integration part. [131:39] It's a middle or the bridge between your [131:42] core product and the external system. [131:45] And the third is external system. So I'm [131:48] saying that you need to think in that [131:51] fashion because [131:53] if you want to change your you know [131:56] external system let's say if you are [131:58] using um a newsletter system a you used [132:05] it you built an integration with that [132:08] newsletter system now after few years [132:12] you decide you decided to use another [132:16] system, right? So, what you need to do, [132:20] you change the external system. [132:23] Okay? Now, you need to change the [132:25] integration part. [132:27] If you combine or if you design your [132:30] system in a way that you know it's fully [132:33] integrated or you know fully coupled, [132:36] it's not decoupled, but if you integrate [132:38] it within your core, [132:41] then changing the system will be [132:43] difficult, right? So I would say you [132:47] need whenever you design your next [132:49] integration think about the core product [132:53] the integration layer and then external [132:55] system so that you just need to touch [132:59] the external system and [133:02] the integration layer. You doesn't need [133:05] to worry about your core product. Right? [133:10] And also think about the future like [133:14] extensibility and the flexibility. [133:17] Correct? So whenever [133:20] you think about building a system, so [133:23] like you also think about the future, [133:26] how it will work in the future, how it [133:29] will changes if something external [133:33] factor will change, right? So you can [133:36] think about that as well. [133:40] Okay. Uh so that's a very good thing [133:43] like about the developers you know. So [133:48] uh tell me like uh whenever you build a [133:50] new system or the new integrations what [133:53] all things you uh require if it's a new [133:58] integration for you? Can anyone answer [134:06] documentation? Yes. [134:11] Okay. Yeah. So we definitely look for [134:15] the documentation of system. Yeah. Uh [134:18] because it's a new third party system [134:21] for us. It's new to us and you know we [134:24] need to understand that system first. So [134:26] the best way is to look out for the [134:28] documentation. So if the documentation [134:30] is good you know so other developers can [134:34] easily interact with your system right. [134:38] So whenever you build a new system or [134:42] you if you are building in APIs for your [134:44] system make sure we have a good [134:47] documentation for it right so so that [134:51] other third parties can talk to our [134:53] system easily otherwise they have a [134:57] multiple problems you know uh and if [134:59] they don't find out the way to solve [135:02] that problem they easily u goes to the [135:05] other systems. So if we want to allow [135:08] other third parties to connect with us [135:11] then we should have a proper [135:12] documentation for that [135:15] and it should be simple as well. If if [135:17] it it's you know u it's complicated [135:21] then again there are chances that people [135:23] churn people don't use your system [135:26] anymore and this is the by like you know [135:30] this is a great way to connect other [135:34] people to you and use your product more. [135:37] If we have a well- definfined APIs then [135:40] there is a there are possibilities that [135:42] people will you know prioritize to use [135:45] your product compared to the system they [135:49] which doesn't have that APIs right and [135:52] it's as I mentioned earlier now we are [135:55] living in the connected ecosystem so [135:59] it's not about the standalone system we [136:01] are connect we are in the connected [136:03] ecosystem so [136:06] the thing like how many times or how [136:09] many APIs or you know how simple we [136:13] develop that defines how others use your [136:16] product [136:19] and it should be secure as well because [136:22] the security is the most important thing [136:25] and if it's not secure then people will [136:28] think should I use this integration or [136:31] not right so these are the basic things [136:35] like you know simple secure and the [136:38] documented. [136:40] Now webbook I told that you know [136:43] whenever the order is prepared it comes [136:46] to you. It's a web hook. So it's a [136:48] realtime communication something happens [136:51] into your system. [136:55] It tells you that this thing happened [136:57] now whatever you want to do do it. So in [137:00] the WordPress we have the actions. So we [137:03] should also allow the third parties to [137:05] do something with your workflows. [137:09] So let's say if it adds if a customer [137:13] bought a product okay we notify that [137:16] okay this customer has bought a product [137:19] now whatever you want to do do it with [137:22] this web hook right so somebody wants to [137:25] add into the newsletter list they can do [137:28] it if someone wants to send uh order [137:32] receipt they can do it if somebody wants [137:35] to send a WhatsApp notification they can [137:38] do it with this. So we notify that okay [137:42] order is placed now do whatever you want [137:44] to do. [137:46] Now generally we when we build an API [137:50] system [137:52] we only think about the best case [137:54] scenarios that okay it will work right [137:58] correct. So we connect our [138:02] we connect our system with the API of [138:04] like third party APIs and in the first [138:07] attempt if it works then we think that [138:10] okay it works but we never think about [138:13] the [138:15] fails. what happen when API fails [138:18] and it fails every time. Okay, so we [138:22] should think about the failures as well, [138:27] right? So when you design your APIs, [138:30] start with what will happen if third [138:34] party APIs will fail. How you handle [138:38] that failure? [138:40] Correct? because you know we we we are [138:43] in so hurry that we don't think about [138:46] that failure and we assume that the APIs [138:49] will work [138:51] correct and it works in the first [138:53] attempt because [138:55] it's a simple scenario you connect your [138:58] system to the third party APIs and you [139:00] see that okay it works [139:04] but when system gets complicated or [139:07] become growth is happen at that time we [139:10] realize is failures. So we should plan [139:13] that failure at the beginning. So how we [139:17] plan that [139:19] you know uh so there are various way we [139:23] can plan this failure. We can you know [139:27] we should have a retry mechanism [139:29] mechanism [139:31] so that you know if something fails we [139:33] can retry it [139:36] and it should be automatic automated [139:38] right so user does doesn't have to you [139:41] know comes into the picture and you know [139:45] click on the retry button or something [139:46] it should be automated [139:49] also the Q system [139:52] right and also the logs so while logs [139:55] Because if something fails [139:58] we should know that why it failed. [140:02] If we don't know why it failed we cannot [140:05] fix it right. So for that logs is [140:09] equally important [140:12] and Q system you doesn't need to do [140:14] everything in a sequence. So do it you [140:18] know delegate something to the queue so [140:21] that it retries it based on our um [140:26] design and it recue it. Yeah. [140:31] So like we we built all these APIs. Now [140:35] what the matter most? [140:40] Okay. Okay. So anybody like uh if you [140:42] design your APIs you have the retry Q [140:44] and the log mechanism as well. Now what [140:47] comes in comes to your mind what should [140:49] be the next [140:52] anyone? [140:57] Okay so uh maybe [141:00] the I we talked about the security as [141:02] well correct the security is also [141:04] equally important and the performance. [141:07] So if you provide your APIs, it should [141:10] be work well with the large data sets as [141:13] well. So it should be performant as [141:15] well, right? So how you handle the [141:18] performances? [141:20] So let's let's go back to our um [141:23] restaurant thing. So you know what [141:25] happened earlier? We go to the [141:28] restaurant, place an order at the [141:30] counter. [141:32] The counterperson or the manager tells [141:34] the kitchen to prepare that order. [141:37] Kitchen staff prepared that order, come [141:39] to the counter and give it to you. [141:42] That's how it was working. Right now [141:46] begin like increases. So what happened? [141:50] So one has to like when one person is [141:54] giving an order other has to wait right. [141:57] So instead of [141:59] what happened like [142:01] the counterperson takes the order and [142:04] ask you to wait for few minutes. Okay. [142:07] Now he sends that order to the kitchen. [142:11] Okay. And then start taking another [142:14] orders and start sending that order to [142:16] the kitchen. So whenever the order is [142:19] prepared and send it back to you back to [142:22] the counter and then it gives to you. So [142:26] it doesn't have to wait on the counter [142:29] right you can do other things while your [142:32] order is arrived. So that's how a sync [142:35] thing is work. [142:37] So when you work with APIs or the third [142:41] party APIs at that time we should [142:44] definitely think this approach your core [142:48] products is different now you want to [142:50] integrate with this with the third [142:52] parties right so whatever is [142:58] handled by the third parties or whatever [143:00] you do want to with the third parties it [143:03] should be a sync [143:05] you don't need to sync it because what [143:08] happens if API fails if it's a [143:12] synchronized process then your customer [143:15] is waiting for the response [143:18] right so instead of we can make it a [143:21] synchronous so that whenever the [143:23] customer placed an order [143:26] okay you show a notification that your [143:30] order is placed correct now you want to [143:33] send a receipt to that user user. So it [143:37] can be an async process. [143:39] You don't have to do it synchronous. [143:42] Correct? So why? Because if something [143:46] fails in sending the receipt, your user [143:50] still waits for confirmation of the [143:52] order that okay whether is my order is [143:55] confirmed or not. But but your order is [143:58] already placed. So just notify them your [144:01] order is placed. You don't have to wait. [144:03] Go and do whatever you want to do. [144:06] and the caching. So wherever possible [144:10] use caching. So let me take you another [144:13] to the restaurant thing. Uh okay. So one [144:17] customer comes and ask for the mango [144:20] milkshake. [144:22] Yep. [144:23] So it delivers to them. Now the second [144:27] person comes and again ask for the milk [144:29] mango milkshake. Now it request goes to [144:32] the kitchen and kitchen tells that okay [144:35] we don't have [144:37] mango milkshake now right [144:41] and tell that customer that okay we [144:44] don't we don't have now the third person [144:46] comes he again ask for the mango [144:49] milkshake [144:50] so the man do manager needs to ask [144:54] kitchen that okay prepare a mango [144:57] milkshake or just do need to they need [145:00] to tell that okay We don't have a mango [145:01] milkshake, [145:04] right? So it's a caching. So now [145:09] the manager knows that we don't have a [145:11] mango milkshake more. So whenever any [145:15] request comes for the mango milkshake, [145:18] we can simply say no, we don't need to [145:20] go to the kitchen as well. [145:23] Right? And web. So whenever we restock [145:28] the mango milkshake, kitchen will notify [145:30] that okay now we have restocked the [145:34] mango milkshake now we can deliver it [145:37] right. So if the fourth person come and [145:40] ask for the mango milkshake and manager [145:43] knows that we already restocked then we [145:46] can deliver it right. So this is [145:50] caching. I'm I'm telling these stories [145:53] because uh we can easily reconnect with [145:57] those concepts right so whenever you [145:59] build your next integration you can you [146:02] know easily remember the story and [146:05] connect the dots [146:08] now [146:10] all all all things are working well the [146:13] security comes into the picture right so [146:16] you know somebody asked me yesterday [146:19] that you know if we add more integration [146:22] or if you integrate any of the third [146:24] party system don't it make your s make [146:28] your product vulnerable I said yes we [146:32] are depending on that so definitely it [146:37] it's a chance of attacker to attack our [146:40] system right so it's like you know uh if [146:44] we have more doors in our house [146:48] it actually [146:51] a security concern as well. It allows us [146:55] the simplicity like uh easily navigate [146:58] we can go out from any of the doors but [147:01] at the same time it's a security concern [147:04] as well. So do we reduce our roles uh [147:07] doors? Yes, we can reduce our doors and [147:10] at the same time if we don't want to [147:12] reduce our doors, we can have a proper [147:15] lock and key [147:17] so that we can properly secured our [147:20] doors and our house. [147:24] So every integration definitely it's a [147:26] risk but we have to be clear from our [147:30] end so that we can avoid that risk. So [147:34] we can make our system like you know [147:37] sanitization or any other security [147:40] things if you are dealing with third [147:42] party datas then we should definitely [147:44] think on that part. [147:48] Now everything we have built but at the [147:51] end who will use our product [147:54] you know uh so our users [147:57] correct who will use this integration [147:59] our users so for them this doesn't [148:02] matter whatever like how we built this [148:06] thing for them [148:09] like how I use this system so so for [148:13] them is like all about the user [148:16] experience you You know if it's simple [148:20] then it wins. If it's complicated user [148:24] dropped out from there itself user don't [148:26] will not use your product will not use [148:29] your integration. So for them the simple [148:32] user experiences matters. Okay. So we [148:36] all we did all the hard work in the [148:39] background. Now it's time to make it [148:41] more simple for our end users so that [148:44] actually they can use this integration [148:48] to simplify their workflows. [148:52] Okay. So another thing you know when you [148:55] build your first integration and when [148:57] you go it to the customer now customer [149:01] ask for more integrations. [149:04] Okay you have email notification system. [149:08] Yes, we do have. Do you have WhatsApp [149:11] notification? Yeah, we do have. Do you [149:14] send a message on Slack? [149:17] No, we don't have. Do you send a message [149:19] on that, this, that, you know, [149:22] everything like new request comes in. [149:25] Now [149:26] you need to become a doctor, [149:29] right? So whenever the patient comes he [149:34] tells the story that okay doctor I I [149:37] have this thing that thing I feel low [149:40] something like that okay so he [149:44] prescribed the medicine to them now [149:46] other patient come he described his [149:48] story [149:50] again the doctor prescribed the medicine [149:53] but what doctor does he diagnose what [149:58] actually happened to each of the patient [150:01] And sometimes that happened sometime [150:03] happened that people have different [150:05] stories [150:07] but or the different symptoms but all [150:11] diagnosed with the same problem. [150:14] So doctor prescribed but every time he [150:17] prescribed the same medicine to everyone [150:20] right so you don't have to build [150:22] integration for each and everything. you [150:25] need to find out what matters or can it [150:30] be solved by whatever we have. Okay. So [150:35] that's how we need to think and also [150:38] like whenever we [150:41] build an integration the first question [150:44] comes into our mind is what integration [150:47] we need to build first [150:50] right so as I mentioned earlier like we [150:53] are into the connected ecosystem so we [150:55] can start with what's more popular and [150:59] what allows us to reduce the friction [151:02] more or maybe we can see that okay uh [151:07] how people are using our product outside [151:11] and what friction they are having. So we [151:14] can start with that we can first solve [151:18] the actual users problem then start [151:21] building more integration on top of it. [151:24] Yeah. So we can think start thinking [151:26] like that [151:28] and the common mistakes you know that [151:31] this is the mistakes I made very often [151:34] earlier you know I when I started [151:37] integrating the systems I make it more [151:41] tight coupled to micro core product. Now [151:45] what challenges I faced after that [151:48] whenever I needed to change the third [151:50] part system I needed to change in my [151:53] core product as well. So that's where I [151:56] realized that okay we need to start [151:58] thinking in into the layers like core [152:01] product integration layer and the exter [152:05] external products [152:10] and what lesson I learned start with [152:13] simple every time whenever you build a [152:15] product or API start with simple things [152:19] don't make it complicated from the day [152:22] one and iterate create based on the [152:25] users feedback. [152:27] Yeah. So that's the core lesson I [152:29] learned and the future like now the AI [152:32] is there and we heard in one of the [152:35] session that the abilities APIs. So we [152:38] can definitely look into those things [152:40] how these abil abilities APIs will help [152:44] AI to connect with our system and that's [152:49] a powerful system we can definitely [152:52] build and uh allows the AI to interact [152:55] with our products. So so far we are [152:58] interacting with our own tools. Now with [153:01] the ability APIs you third like AI can [153:05] also integrate with our product. [153:09] So [153:11] any questions so far? [153:15] Yeah please. [153:20] >> Hi. Uh am I audible? [153:22] >> Yeah. [153:23] >> Uh no actually I had a general question [153:26] if that's okay. Uh I'm part of a web [153:29] agency dossolutions. So uh just wanted [153:32] to know like we keep adding all these [153:34] apps and integrations and plugins to uh [153:37] like if we are adding it to a single [153:38] website uh won't that create like [153:41] performance issues uh and if if if so [153:45] how do we tackle that? If you can share [153:47] some insights. [153:48] >> Sure. Uh so it's a very good question. [153:50] It's a common question as well because [153:53] you know every time we use [153:56] uh different products [153:58] okay u so it adds more complexity to [154:02] your system as well right so uh [154:07] definitely as I mentioned that whenever [154:09] we add more system we have a security [154:11] risk as well right at the same time we [154:14] have the performance risk but [154:18] when the performance risk comes into the [154:20] picture if you design your integration [154:24] poorly [154:25] okay so it's a design choice it's the [154:28] architect choices right so you need to [154:30] make sure as I mentioned that okay we [154:33] need to delegate [154:35] the third party things or the API things [154:38] in the background a syn a synchronous [154:40] thing right if it's a synchronous and if [154:43] it fails then it definitely cause a [154:46] performance issue right so it's all [154:49] about how you design your APIs, [154:52] okay, and how you how your integration [154:55] works. If is all synchronous and if [154:58] something fails, definitely it creates a [155:00] performance issue, right? So, it's a [155:03] design choice. Yeah. [155:16] >> Does it answer a question? [155:17] >> Yeah. Yeah. Thanks. that uh that was [155:20] insightful. Uh so basically you're [155:22] saying uh the solution is to improve the [155:25] integrations and the apps right it's not [155:27] u uh we should not remove it completely [155:30] in case [155:31] >> if if you if the integration or if the [155:33] system requires you to integrate let's [155:37] say if you want to use a system so [155:40] definitely it's a part of your workflow [155:42] so removing that system out of the [155:45] picture is not the solution right [155:47] because you need that system [155:48] >> that's right [155:49] >> so definitely we to look how we are [155:51] connecting to that system. [155:53] >> Okay. Right. [155:54] >> Thank you. [155:56] >> Yes. [155:58] >> Hello. Uh I am Bhavik Kubawad. Uh I'm [156:02] from Ahabad. [156:04] Uh my question is similar to like this [156:06] as a performance related. I wants to [156:09] know in your project while you are [156:12] working in your workflow which you which [156:15] tools you are using or while you like uh [156:18] for example I am integration WordPress [156:21] with my UDO and zero GPR so at the time [156:25] for performance which tool are best and [156:28] which you are using in your projects [156:31] >> yeah so that's another a good question [156:33] so whenever I start with you know [156:36] integration I don't think about the [156:38] systems s which systems I need to use or [156:41] I want to use. I think about the [156:44] workflows like what workflows I want to [156:47] connect [156:49] you know and based on that I research [156:53] okay for solving my workflow or to [156:56] connect particular thing what is the [156:59] best system available [157:02] so generally I don't think about I I [157:05] don't start with the systems I start [157:07] with the workflows [157:08] >> okay but in while you are working like [157:12] in projects these tools you are using [157:14] like I am using cloud file for this for [157:17] best security purpose in my for [157:20] WordPress project and uh like doing the [157:23] CD and encasing this with UDO platform [157:27] so in your projects any other tools like [157:31] no for integration part there is no such [157:34] specific tools I used yeah it's all [157:36] about the workflows and from that I [157:39] decide which systems or the third party [157:42] tools I will use Yeah. [157:44] >> Thank you. [157:44] >> Thank you. [157:47] Okay. Uh [157:49] now the final thoughts. So whenever you [157:53] design your system next time [157:59] ask this question. Does it work or does [158:03] it work with everything? [158:05] Right? [158:07] So you can start thinking about from the [158:10] day one like how the users or the [158:13] ecosystems will use your product [158:17] right so you can start building from [158:21] there. Yep. Thank you. [158:34] >> Thank you. Thank you malai for such an [158:35] insightful session. Let's give him [158:38] another round of applause. [158:41] >> Just a minute. [158:42] >> Okay. [158:48] >> This is an small token of appreciation [158:51] from the community. [158:57] >> Thank you. Thank you. [159:01] So now we have a break for some time. [159:04] Please use this time to connect with [159:06] fellow attendees. [159:08] We'll join back soon after the break. [159:11] Thank you. [159:21] >> Once you're done, it's completely will [159:23] be [159:38] This is your [159:39] >> Hello, this is [159:49] >> So there are three panelists or four [159:51] panelists? Three. Yeah. [159:55] >> Okay. I'll be introducing you on the [159:57] stage and then you'll be introducing the [160:00] panelists to the stage. [160:14] Um, can I know the pronunciation of your [160:17] name? Karthik. [160:24] Karthik madam [160:27] goal. Gopal. [160:29] Yeah. [160:48] Heat. Heat. [161:10] Everything. [162:28] Heat. Heat. [164:37] feel. [164:41] Hey [165:11] Heat. Heat. [165:37] Hello. [165:45] Hello. [165:54] Heat. Heat. N. [166:04] Heat. [166:20] Hey, Heat. [166:30] Hello. [166:51] Hello. [167:13] feeling. [167:15] Feeling [167:38] You feel [167:47] me? [169:36] Hello. [169:51] Hey. Hey. [171:13] Heat. Heat. [171:35] Heat. Heat. N. [171:47] I want you. [173:30] Heat. Hey, Heat. [174:05] Hey [174:19] you. [174:48] Heat. Heat. [175:46] Please take your seat. [176:19] Everyone, [176:22] yeah, welcome back everyone. Hope you [176:24] had a refreshing break. So moving on to [176:27] the next session, we have a panel [176:29] discussion on journalism and the open [176:31] web. So our moderator for this panel [176:34] discussion is Kartik Raj Mugapu. We have [176:38] he is a serial entrepreneur and longtime [176:41] contributor to the WordPress ecosystem [176:43] who has been actively involved in [176:45] building tools and support the [176:47] opensource ecosystem. [176:49] Please welcome Kartik Raj. [177:00] Good afternoon, Word Camp Asia. [177:03] We have a lovely panel set up for you. [177:05] We're going to be speaking to a diverse [177:07] set of panelists to describe discuss the [177:10] jour about journalism and the open web. [177:12] Let's let's get them on stage. [177:24] No. So they're here, please. So we have [177:27] AJ. AJ Kamlakaran. You might know him. [177:30] You might know him as the author of [177:31] Colombo, Port of Call. If you don't, [177:34] look up the book. It is really uh [177:36] compelling. AJ represents long form [177:39] storytelling. He brings depth as his uh [177:42] uh as his uh specialty and we look [177:45] forward to hearing how journalism and [177:48] how he brings his flavor of journalism [177:50] using depth and long form storytelling. [177:53] And then a big hand for AJ please. Thank [177:56] you. [177:57] We have Urvashi. Urashi Sarkcar. [178:05] Urashi is an independent journalist. She [178:08] covers global events. global issues, [178:10] governance, climate, international [178:12] affairs are published across major [178:14] international platforms. Her opinion is [178:17] heard, it matters and she's going to [178:18] share some exciting opinions today with [178:20] us. A big hand to Urishi, please. [178:25] And we have Gopal Gopal MS. He's also [178:29] known as Sloan Morgan, I'm told. He's [178:32] also uh the uh inventor and known as the [178:36] Mumbai paused. Some of you in Mumbai [178:38] might know him as Mumbai paused. He's a [178:40] visual storyteller. He's the one who [178:42] shows you before he tells you. So we [178:45] have all three forms here of journalism. [178:47] We have visual, we have long form, we [178:49] have standard and we're more [178:51] traditional. And we're going to be [178:53] exploring how journalism has evolved, [178:55] how the open web is encouraging and [178:59] allowing journalism to flourish or in [179:01] sometimes or or the challenges with the [179:04] open web and journalism. and we'll see [179:06] all three opinions today. A big hand to [179:08] the panel please. [179:12] Okay. So let's get started. [179:14] Um in a line in a line all of you are [179:18] you know you might or not describe [179:20] yourself as journalist in some form but [179:22] how would you des what sort of a [179:23] journalist are you? Could you just in a [179:26] line describe your own words? What sort [179:28] of a journalist are you? Do you want to [179:30] go first AJ? [179:31] >> Yeah uh I'm audible right? Yes, you are [179:34] clear. [179:35] >> Right. So, yes, like you describe me as [179:38] a long- form journalist. Uh that's how I [179:40] would choose to describe myself and as a [179:42] writer because uh most of us are writers [179:46] at the same time. I know that word has [179:48] been completely misused in the tech age. [179:51] >> Mhm. [179:52] >> Okay. Okay. and Urashi. [179:55] Um I would describe myself as an [179:59] independent journalist and um which [180:02] would uh independent is um it's a [180:06] complicated word [180:07] >> and um especially in um in testing times [180:12] such as these where um at every level [180:17] you're you're forced to question your [180:18] independence uh every day but uh you [180:21] persist nevertheless. Yeah. [180:24] Okay, Gopal, you do describe yourself as [180:27] an independent publisher being a [180:29] creator-led uh journalist. So, how would [180:31] you describe yourself? [180:32] >> Uh, [180:34] I would be firstly a photojournalist. [180:37] >> Uh, I wouldn't call myself a proper [180:39] journalist, but more a wannabe. [180:41] >> Is that is that a thing? [180:44] >> Yeah. [180:44] >> Okay. because journalists I mean [180:47] journalism is a is a is a profession and [180:51] it goes into layer depths and I just go [180:53] on the surface with just photographs. [180:56] >> Okay. [180:56] >> So and I I would probably be what you'd [180:59] call a citizen photojournalist if I have [181:02] to add a suffix called journalism to it. [181:04] >> Okay. [181:05] >> So that a citizen photographer would be [181:07] what [181:07] >> citizen photographer [181:08] >> who shares pictures open source they [181:10] call WordPress. [181:11] >> Okay. So let's assume that all three of [181:14] you were covering the same story. How [181:16] would it look? How would you cover a [181:18] major event, a world event or a ma a [181:20] world development? Uh AJ, what would be [181:23] your approach? [181:24] >> Well, the first thing of course would be [181:26] physical presence. I know you talk about [181:28] technology so much and people depend so [181:31] much on on Twitter or X or whatever it's [181:35] called these days to get press releases [181:37] and to get information. But I think your [181:40] presence is really important when you're [181:41] covering something major. It goes, you [181:44] know, to to feel how to feel the place, [181:47] to to talk to people, to godge the mood, [181:50] and to see what actually is going on [181:52] with your own eyes. That's the first [181:54] thing for you to have a proper [181:55] understanding before you can explain it [181:57] to anybody else. And uh and I've worked [182:01] for an organization that actually [182:03] started offshoring news uh back in the [182:06] late 2000s. and even shifted financial [182:10] reporting, night reporting uh to India [182:13] so that their journalists could sleep at [182:15] night. Okay. And of course you covered [182:17] things like [182:18] >> uh the collapse of Morgan Stanley etc. [182:21] uh Lehman Brothers but the point is you [182:24] weren't in New York physically to cover [182:25] that and sometimes journalism is about [182:29] reading the leaves the signs and you [182:31] know being prepared for an event like [182:32] this and [182:33] >> okay [182:34] >> that is where I feel that physical [182:36] presence important. Okay. Okay. So being [182:39] on the ground isn't new for you. You've [182:41] been you've been close to your stories. [182:43] We're aware of that. How how would you [182:45] cover the same story in your flavor in [182:47] your with your persona? [182:50] >> Well, uh ideally [182:53] it really helps if you're on the ground, [182:54] but um there's a lot to really think [182:58] about uh if you do plan to be on the [183:02] spot to cover the story. [183:04] Do you want to go in in the midst of it? [183:07] Do you want to go 10 days later or do [183:09] you want to go in the runup? I think [183:11] that matters a lot. Um and obviously I [183:16] agree with uh AJ there is nothing to to [183:21] match your own presence in the ground. [183:24] Uh but um I think culture and context [183:26] and language also matters a lot. So if [183:29] you're not familiar uh with the culture, [183:31] the language uh and uh you it doesn't [183:35] make sense to just go on a l [183:38] >> you need to do a lot of homework before [183:39] going weigh the pros and cons. find a [183:42] publisher, have a budget, see how much [183:45] you're spending out of your own pocket [183:47] and um and you know then uh then do it [183:52] like I've last I went to Kashmir after [183:55] uh you know the conf the after what had [183:58] happened in Pelgam I went 10 days after [184:00] the ceasefire and uh believe me I had a [184:03] really hard time finding publishers for [184:05] my stories I thought people would want [184:07] it because uh there weren't too many [184:09] journalists in the ground but I really [184:11] struggled struggle to find a publisher. [184:14] So, um I think you have to really think [184:16] a lot about how you're going to be uh [184:19] there and who your readers are going to [184:21] be. I think that matters a lot. Yeah. [184:25] >> Okay. Okay. So, Gopal while you know [184:27] while visual storytelling is I think the [184:30] easiest to absorb easier most readily uh [184:33] accepted what are the challenges you [184:35] face when you want to tell a serious [184:37] story through your uh medium? [184:41] uh one is being at a place when it [184:43] happens. Second is I don't do breaking [184:46] news or any of the I document cities [184:49] >> right [184:49] >> so whenever there is something like say [184:51] for example there was the bim bimgo [184:54] protest that happened a few years back [184:56] and uh uh there was this entire thing [184:59] about uh protests by dalut people okay a [185:03] few days after the incident in Bombay [185:05] and uh I was out there in a part of the [185:08] city where uh the protests were [185:11] happening and going to see it and in [185:14] make is uh so there are uh epicenters of [185:18] where a news is happening and then there [185:19] are other things where the common people [185:22] and somebody who walks the street sees [185:24] anything [185:25] >> right [185:25] >> so I think I push in there and uh like [185:28] all journalists it's all curiosity [185:30] >> you go there first you figure out uh I [185:33] mean you figure out how to satiate your [185:36] uh curiosity and then once you digest it [185:39] you put it out to the world so I try to [185:42] do it [185:44] >> and uh hopefully it works but yeah [185:47] >> okay so in our tech world when [185:48] entrepreneurs um have this concept that [185:51] I don't want to report to a boss I want [185:53] to be run my own company they don't [185:55] realize that the customer becomes your [185:57] boss after that and that's similar to [185:59] the various platforms right so you could [186:01] either want to uh go away from an editor [186:03] editorial uh censorship or editorial [186:06] control and try to go on to creator lab [186:08] with creatorled uh content but then that [186:11] pushes you into a bigger world where [186:13] your audience becomes your editor, where [186:15] the platforms that you're publishing on [186:17] become your editors. Deciding whether [186:20] your content reaches the right audience, [186:22] deciding whether a particular piece of [186:24] messaging is amplified or not. So there [186:27] we've all heard about the algorithm, you [186:30] know, or plural singular. Um what what's [186:33] been your experience with uh how you [186:36] work with the algorithms, how you [186:39] maximize benefits and how you chase as [186:41] we were discussing earlier how you [186:44] respond to your audience as as your [186:46] distributed editor. [186:49] >> Okay. Uh I'll go first. Uh so in my case [186:52] I tried to uh to not allow the people to [186:57] dictate what I need to to do. So I I [187:01] make it a conscious decision to not [187:03] cater to the public because I have a [187:05] second life. I I mean I work in [187:06] advertising. [187:07] >> Okay. [187:07] >> Where I do I'm a copyriter and I write [187:11] for products. I have bosses and I have [187:13] clients and stuff like that. So in this [187:16] I don't want anybody to dictate. [187:19] >> So I just do what I see. [187:22] >> Okay. So there was that whole Hindi [187:23] movie called Ankoi [187:25] >> where this man goes about seeing [187:27] everything for the first time and he'll [187:29] only believe what he sees, right? [187:31] >> So I try to follow that Ankoi thing with [187:35] what I do. But I can't escape the [187:37] algorithm. [187:38] >> So I try to use hashtags which are my [187:40] own hashtags, [187:41] >> okay, [187:41] >> to try and propagate it. But now I think [187:43] hashtags are dying. So I'll have to [187:46] figure out a way to figure out in the [187:48] world of AI how how I can hack it or [187:52] whatever. [187:52] >> Right. Okay. Um Urashi, there's this [187:55] concept of speed versus depth. [187:59] >> Yeah. First versus right. What's what's [188:02] your take on that? There's always that [188:04] balance that you need to achieve, right? [188:05] Do you want to be the first? Do you want [188:07] to be right? And is it too late if you [188:10] wait till you're right? Um what's [188:12] important? Is it important to be the one [188:14] who announces the one who gets your [188:17] message out first? Um or is it important [188:20] to to do your to do enough uh due [188:23] diligence enough analysis before you get [188:25] the message out which by then the news [188:27] might already be stale. So that's a [188:29] always a balance that I'm sure uh you [188:33] face. What's your opinion on that? [188:34] >> Uh good question. uh uh s is uh as a [188:39] journalist I'd always you know want to [188:41] be the first as journalists we would [188:42] want to be the first to uh you know [188:45] so-called break the news but uh I think [188:48] uh that would have been true of me let's [188:50] say 10 or 15 years ago uh because now I [188:54] think that I don't want to be [188:56] necessarily the first to break the news [188:58] I'm there's a once something breaks [189:02] there's a lot that can be done with it [189:04] and I would definitely prioritize depth, [189:09] nuance and the various truths and [189:12] there's no one truth often to a [189:14] particular story. there are various [189:16] truths uh and kind of pick the meat you [189:21] know sort of uh destructure the whole [189:24] thing and which is why I prefer long [189:27] form uh cannot be fastest finger first [189:31] cannot be keyboard warrior cannot be any [189:34] of those things uh [189:35] >> that's a new term keyboard warrior [189:38] >> yeah I picked it off X [189:39] >> okay [189:40] >> so so I'm very content to just see the [189:43] news break and then see ah this is what [189:45] maybe I can follow up on it and perhaps [189:48] do something interesting with it later [189:49] on. [189:50] >> Right. Right. So AJ I'm assuming your [189:53] approach theoretically would be one of [189:56] much more research much more depth [189:58] probably come up with a a deeper [190:01] introspection or a deeper uh analysis of [190:04] of a of a event or a uh of a a world [190:08] event or an action which happened. [190:10] What's what what's your approach when [190:12] you start deciding let's say your next [190:14] book or when you start thinking about [190:16] how what perspective you'd like to bring [190:18] into something which let's say the the [190:20] visual storytellers have done the piece [190:22] and maybe the articles and even though [190:24] not instantaneous not not the uh [190:27] breaking news but still it the the [190:29] reporting timeline for journalism is [190:32] like days maybe weeks but when you write [190:34] a book that's like more in months do I [190:37] dare say years [190:38] >> it can be years. Yeah. But again, see, [190:41] I've been involved with breaking news [190:43] and it's not something that I [190:44] particularly enjoy and okay, [190:46] >> I get no thrill out of being, oh, I was [190:48] the first person to report this at right [190:50] bragging rights. I mean, you know, when [190:52] we had this conflict last May, a lot of [190:55] people got handouts from, you know, [190:58] particular places and they put out [191:00] things that were absolutely not true [191:01] because they believed it came from the [191:03] horse's mouth. So, I'm I'm happy that [191:05] I'm not involved with that anymore. But [191:06] when it comes to long-term research, one [191:09] thing I'd like to do is see for example, [191:13] I write for a publication called Scroll. [191:15] I really enjoy writing there. And [191:18] >> right now, the hot topic when it comes [191:21] to news, of course, is the crisis in [191:23] West Asia, the war there. So, the idea [191:26] is to look at a lot of things through [191:29] historical background. So I've written a [191:31] few articles about about Iran and [191:33] India's relationship with Iran and about [191:35] with Iranian people for example. You [191:38] know there's a lot you can find in the [191:40] archives to do this. So kind of be [191:42] involved with what's going on uh and [191:45] then look for depth and then to see to [191:48] try and understand things a little [191:49] better. [191:50] >> Okay. There's there's this thing that [191:52] I've heard about uh especially long form [191:54] writers that there's always a book in [191:56] the works. [191:59] Yeah. [192:00] >> Whether you whether you would want to [192:02] admit it or not. So, do you have a book [192:04] in the works or do you have many? [192:06] >> Well, see here here's the thing. What [192:08] people don't understand about writing [192:09] books is that especially if you're a [192:12] journalist. Now, when you write an [192:13] article for a publication, may get [192:16] published in a couple of weeks, maybe a [192:17] month or worst case scenario, a couple [192:20] of months. You'll agree with me on this. [192:22] >> But when it comes to a book, see my [192:24] latest book. Now, I was supposed to [192:26] submit the manuscript at the end of uh [192:30] 2024, December 31st. [192:32] >> Okay? [192:33] >> But you do this, you work on it and [192:35] you're excited about this and then it [192:36] just got published only in Jan 2026. [192:39] Okay? [192:39] >> So there's this huge gap. [192:41] >> So the thing with books are sometimes [192:43] many books never see the the light of [192:45] day and it the process [192:47] >> can just take so long, [192:49] >> right? that it's it you know it's very [192:52] different from being a journalist and [192:54] sometimes you require so much patience [192:56] with this y [192:57] >> because you can actually work on [192:59] something and suddenly it can become [193:02] completely dated see with this [193:03] >> yeah by the time it comes out [193:05] >> like I mentioned in about Columbbo about [193:07] a something a project called port city [193:10] which is being built with Chinese [193:11] assistance in off you know just [193:14] reclaiming land and building it in Colbo [193:16] and the point is that uh when I wrote [193:19] you the first draft uh there was [193:21] something I wrote about it and then six [193:23] months later when they finally started [193:25] editing it I had to change that because [193:27] there was some progress there. So this [193:29] is the thing right you can't just uh put [193:32] a correction and edit something on a [193:33] website or in the next issue of a [193:35] magazine or a newspaper. So the whole [193:38] it's a completely different ballgame and [193:40] it's the amount of time it takes [193:43] >> just to have an idea to convert that [193:45] into an idea to get it published. Yeah, [193:47] >> different [193:48] >> I can imagine. And that's I I would say [193:50] that's the complete u opposite end to [193:52] what gopal experiences is like click [193:55] edit publish [193:57] >> and then repeat [193:58] >> right so maybe hours maybe max maybe a [194:01] few days at best [194:02] >> minutes [194:03] >> minutes minutes okay [194:04] >> this will be on his Instagram and x [194:06] handles as soon as the conversation's [194:08] done [194:09] >> yeah yeah um technology obviously you [194:13] know opensource the internet the tools [194:16] the technology usage of AI I how has [194:19] that impacted your ability to focus only [194:23] on the content, focus on the message and [194:27] not get distracted by the tools, the [194:29] software, maybe the um uh the [194:33] superficial layer. So because that's you [194:36] know it can be you can publish using [194:39] visual long form or more traditional. [194:41] How do you grapple with the rapid [194:43] technology changes in journalism? What [194:45] are your experiences? Do do you want to [194:47] comment on that? Urishi, have you faced [194:49] any challenges regarding technology? Um [194:52] or has as or so the theory is [194:55] developments in technology have made [194:57] should make things easier. [194:59] >> Yeah. [194:59] >> Right. They should they should they [195:00] should reduce the timelines like [195:02] editing. There's no type setting. You [195:04] can make things faster. But is that [195:06] always the case? Has some have you [195:08] experienced technological improvements [195:10] which actually have got you longing for [195:13] the old days when something was better? [195:16] Um [195:18] so the thing is that yeah technology has [195:20] you know proceeded at a devastatingly [195:23] rapid pace and uh I think uh the people [195:27] who are really affected would be at the [195:29] entry level where a lot of entry level [195:31] work is uh no longer available or is [195:35] possibly even more underpaid than it [195:38] currently is. [195:39] >> Um but uh [195:42] >> journalists get paid. [195:45] Sure they do. [195:47] >> Okay. [195:47] >> Not just from the publication. [195:49] >> Okay. [195:49] >> The joke isn't me anyway. But um [195:53] >> uh on a more serious note uh you see all [195:57] of these developments especially in AI [196:00] and uh you can be like you know a low [196:03] diet and say okay I'm not going to [196:04] associate with this this is bad this is [196:06] you know this is just evil right? In [196:09] some way AI is evil. But uh on the other [196:13] hand uh you do realize that you need to [196:16] engage with it. You need to train [196:19] yourself how to work with it. And uh so [196:22] like you mentioned like all long form [196:24] journalists I'm also working on a book. [196:27] >> Well uh so I'm kind um it's not in [196:30] manuscript uh stages yet. It's I'm [196:33] revising it. [196:34] >> Okay. Um [196:36] but I do look at AI to see how I can do [196:40] this work faster. Uh not necessarily to [196:43] write not for generative AI but more in [196:46] terms of search the search function [196:48] because my book is investigative. So I [196:52] do need to search fast [196:54] >> and I need accurate results and not [196:57] something that AI makes up. I need [196:58] sources. I need you know all of that. So [197:01] AI has made my work easier [197:04] >> uh and quicker in in that sense and um I [197:09] think uh there's no shame in admitting [197:11] that you can use tools of AI uh with [197:16] your work. Uh but it has to be ethically [197:18] done and you know you have to avoid [197:20] plagiarism and all of that stuff. Um, [197:22] but I think you need to constantly if [197:25] not fully adapt but be aware of what's [197:28] going on and incorporate as much as [197:30] possible in your work. [197:32] >> Yeah. [197:33] >> I'd like to add something to that if [197:34] that's all right. [197:35] >> Yes. Yes. [197:36] >> See, it's how you use the technology. [197:38] For example, I'll just take in our [197:41] Indian National Archives, right? A lot [197:43] of archival documents are online and [197:46] they've done an excellent job. Although [197:47] the site they've it's actually it's [197:50] gotten worse. It was easier before they [197:52] upgraded it. [197:53] >> Okay. [197:53] >> But you get so much information out [197:55] there so that it is a lot easier uh [197:58] sitting you know at your desk and [198:01] finding archival documents online. Use [198:04] that and some places they haven't done [198:06] that. So you physically have to go ask [198:09] for a specific number look at a specific [198:11] file and I did that in Colbo where the [198:13] documents are not they haven't been [198:14] uploaded online. So where the technology [198:18] is available for you where even the [198:20] Royal Asiatic Society uh their their [198:23] archives are excellent online right [198:25] >> so you find so much there use use those [198:29] things to your advantage [198:31] and you know there's it makes life a lot [198:34] easier when you have these things online [198:38] >> but today you can go on to one of the [198:41] dozens of free promptbased photography [198:46] um AI startups and say, "I'd like an [198:49] image of a street seller selling this, [198:53] standing next to a kid who's crying and [198:55] looking hungry with three women looking [198:57] over them. Give as much of a prompt as [199:00] you want and get a beautiful photograph [199:02] which describes exactly what you were [199:04] thinking. Are you about to be out of a [199:06] job?" [199:07] >> No, not for straight photography. No [199:09] chance. Because there are [199:11] >> unless you're already doing that and [199:12] that's why you're not out of [199:14] >> No, it's imper I mean it is not [199:16] possible. See guys like me who put [199:18] pictures online are training the systems [199:20] to make that happen. [199:21] >> That's true. That's true. Thank you so [199:24] much. Until until the system takes over. [199:26] >> Yeah. But I am an I am a trainer. [199:29] >> Okay. [199:29] >> For future generations. [199:31] >> Okay. [199:32] >> So uh but there are so many nuances in [199:35] reality. [199:36] >> Yes. That see your imagination is very [199:38] limited if you sit and write prompts. [199:40] >> That's right. That's right. [199:41] >> It is no comparison to just stepping out [199:43] down there. [199:44] >> Right. Right. Out [199:45] >> the world simply happened to you. [199:46] >> Yeah. Even in a sterile dead place like [199:49] BKC, you step out [199:52] >> or out out of this gate. [199:55] >> Yeah. [199:55] >> Point the camera and shoot a picture. [199:57] The little things that you see [199:58] >> right [199:59] >> is you can't recreate that. I mean what [200:02] we wear uh the the temperature the light [200:05] the I mean the the complex complexity of [200:10] Mumbai city [200:11] >> right [200:11] >> not possible to capture with prompts I [200:14] will not be able to do it but uh also [200:17] what is our joy in that [200:19] >> so [200:21] >> I mean there are people who do it like [200:23] like very simple example like uh right [200:27] now now it's April 14th which is [200:29] Ambedkar Janti [200:31] Right. So you'll see hoardings across [200:33] until last year. All the holdings had [200:35] actual pictures of [200:37] >> Dr. Ambulkar old ones [200:39] >> which were touched up on Photoshop. This [200:41] year not a single one. [200:43] >> Oh [200:43] >> everything is AI generated images. [200:45] >> Okay. [200:46] >> Polished clean. [200:47] >> Okay. [200:48] >> No specks or dust or no grains, [200:51] >> right? [200:51] >> Nothing. It's all new. There's an entire [200:53] new imagery of him that has come which [200:54] after 5 years or next year nobody will [200:57] remember what Ambedkar looked like [200:59] because he has a completely new face [201:01] which is AI generated. [201:03] >> So it's a it's a crazy visual world that [201:06] is going to come [201:06] >> right and the worst is the times of [201:10] India and in ET times. Have you ever [201:12] seen the pictures they put and the [201:14] author and the and if you look at the [201:16] details of the pictures they put in the [201:18] AI generated image of the stories [201:20] they'll make anyone cry. Okay. [201:22] >> But the people are okay with it and I [201:23] think they deserve it. So [201:26] >> because times of India. [201:27] >> Okay. I' I've heard that um um [201:29] journalists are speak from the heart and [201:31] without any fear and you can see that [201:34] happening here. Thank you. You know my [201:36] favorite of trying to spot um AI in [201:39] images. I don't know if you've [201:40] experienced this and if you've read [201:41] about this. Look at the hands. [201:44] >> Look at the fingers. You [201:46] >> mean six fingers? [201:47] >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Six fingers. double [201:49] thumbs or of course I think people have [201:51] become smarter but that is the fear [201:53] >> okay so the internet I mean is there [201:56] anything called something separate as [201:58] the internet it's engulfed us it's [201:59] inside us it's around us the work we do [202:02] we save our information on the internet [202:04] we distribute it uh distribute [202:06] everything as the across the internet [202:08] how do you perceive the internet will [202:11] evolve for journalism um so we've got [202:14] the basics we've got you create content [202:16] you save it on the internet You publish [202:18] on platforms, you distribute it on the [202:20] internet. What else do you perceive will [202:23] happen in the future? Do you have any uh [202:26] opinions or wild thoughts of where is [202:28] the internet taking journalism? [202:32] >> Could have to wait and just find out [202:34] because a lot of things that were [202:35] unimaginable 10 years ago, 5 years ago, [202:38] uh you know, are things that are [202:40] happening now. So, it's really difficult [202:43] to predict these kind of things to be [202:44] honest. Mhm. Um, Urvashi, what would [202:47] what advice would you give a youngster [202:50] getting into journalism? What would you [202:52] give her um as as as tips? How would you [202:56] mentor a young journalist? Uh would you [202:59] guide her along a uh platform? Would you [203:04] tell him or her to focus on multiple [203:06] channels at once to sort of derisk or [203:09] explore? or would you tell her to double [203:11] down on something and say stick to it [203:13] till you're till you till you find your [203:15] glory. Uh some of these are sort of [203:18] romanticized versions of how how you [203:20] should but then there's bills to be paid [203:22] there's motivation to be generated and [203:24] there's there's sometimes parents to [203:26] keep satisfied as well. How would how [203:28] would you mentor a young journalist? Uh [203:31] frankly it's very hard to uh you know [203:34] mentor uh young people to become [203:37] journalists today because when uh [203:39] there's so much of demotivation and uh [203:43] uh a sense of deep cynicism in you know [203:47] in the older lot and the senior lot that [203:50] uh when you want to be honest actually [203:52] with you know the younger people as [203:54] well. you don't want to uh mislead them [203:58] or show them uh uh you know visions that [204:01] uh of uh you know that I mean uh we [204:05] should just accept it not everyone can [204:08] become a Ravish Kumar right u a lot of [204:10] people would aspire to be that or uh or [204:13] even a barkat or uh you know someone [204:16] along those lines uh but uh there is [204:20] still a lot to be done and I think uh uh [204:24] I and I've I've taught young students [204:26] you know who you know MASCOM students [204:28] people who want to get into journalism [204:29] and most of them want to be influencers [204:32] >> uh they want to you know have their own [204:34] YouTube channel or uh have they have [204:38] their their own you know role models [204:41] like one uh female student told me she [204:44] wanted to be like Anja Kashup so I said [204:48] okay u if that's your goal that's your [204:50] goal but uh there are others who uh are [204:55] in one or two students have noticed that [204:57] spark [205:01] journalism [205:02] and I know those will be the ones who [205:04] will kind of uh [205:07] >> endure um and uh it's also journalism [205:13] also about you know it's it's a bit of a [205:15] calling so uh and if that calling [205:20] if it feels like uh you can't manage you [205:25] know with the bills and the motivation [205:27] and all of that I think it's fine to [205:29] quit and leave and take up another [205:32] profession uh and do uh something else [205:35] it's perfectly okay [205:37] >> um and you know I'll be honest uh like a [205:40] lot of my bills don't come from [205:42] journalism anymore because everyday [205:44] journalism uh is not going to pay my [205:46] bills um so I do a lot of other stuff [205:49] like teaching mentoring or [205:52] editing to uh because daily reporting or [205:56] daily editing is just not going to cut [205:58] it in today's time. So I would really [206:00] advise students to be really flexible [206:02] >> to you know develop their skills in [206:05] multiple fields and master one field [206:07] right [206:07] >> but also develop their skills in [206:10] multiple fields. Yeah. [206:11] >> Okay. Right. Um I'm AJ I'm sure you know [206:15] you being you having actually published [206:18] your book um having sales having um I [206:22] hear the first print is sold out you're [206:23] reprinting [206:24] >> second as well [206:24] >> second as well [206:27] >> publishing a long form book is like [206:30] there's no gradation so there's like [206:32] either you are there you sell a lot of [206:34] it and you make a lot of money or you're [206:37] struggling or are we confused about it [206:39] what would you suggest how would you uh [206:41] mentor Someone who says I want to [206:43] publish my book, I want to do this. [206:45] Would you say go for it or would you [206:47] give them practical advice to do [206:49] something else? [206:50] >> No. See the the same kind of advice that [206:53] you'd give journalists, right? Go I [206:55] would say go for it. [206:56] >> You know, believe in yourself and just [206:57] try your level best. You can't control [206:59] the outcome. Okay. [207:00] >> But if you if you believe you have [207:02] strong conviction in what you're writing [207:04] and what you want to publish, [207:06] >> then just go ahead with it. I mean [207:08] people were skeptical about this book [207:10] saying nobody in India cares about [207:12] anything that's written about any other [207:14] place unless it's written by a Brit or [207:17] an American some nonsense like that you [207:20] know and legitimacy seems to have been [207:23] allocated [207:24] uh that to to men from these two [207:27] countries and so a Japanese person [207:29] should write about Japan and um a [207:32] Brazilian only about Brazil. So the [207:34] point is you just ignore what people [207:37] have to say. I believe you can do this. [207:39] Not every book is going to be a [207:40] bestseller or a huge success, but you [207:42] have to try your best. And look uh very [207:45] few people have actually made money from [207:47] publishing books. And what happens is if [207:50] your book does well, you get invited uh [207:53] to teach, you get invited for talks, you [207:56] get to mentor people. It opens several [207:59] channels for you. And you know that's [208:02] how people a vast majority of people end [208:04] up making money as writers [208:07] >> because um these channels are open [208:09] otherwise it it is incredibly difficult. [208:11] I mean you can unless you're a rashi or [208:14] an amitav goch you know people like that [208:16] of course but again it's taken time for [208:18] them to perfect their craft and get to [208:22] the level where they have although their [208:24] work isn't perfect by any means but you [208:26] get what I'm saying. [208:27] >> Yeah. Okay. Um [208:32] do you have hope? Do you have fear? Do [208:36] you have worry about the future of [208:38] journalism as we know it today? How how [208:40] what what would be your one emotion or [208:42] would it be a mix of that? A [208:45] >> see it's a mix of things. The problem is [208:47] that uh worldwide the phenomenon is the [208:50] corporates control the the media and big [208:53] corporate houses. It's it's here. It's [208:55] the case in United States with the [208:57] Washington Post. take an example like [208:59] that and unfortunately that freedom is [209:02] completely being curtailed and I really [209:04] appreciate the work of independent [209:06] journalists like urving because the [209:08] point is it's really important uh that [209:11] you're not forced to follow some kind of [209:14] agenda from the highest bidder from uh [209:17] the these corporate interests. So there [209:20] is defin there are a lot of independent [209:21] media outlets out there. I think people [209:24] need to support them. The readers do. If [209:26] you don't want uh well everybody has [209:29] their own vested interest but then if [209:31] you don't want the corporates [209:32] controlling what you know and what they [209:35] want you to hear [209:35] >> that's that's um the the point is taken [209:38] but then the question is okay if the [209:40] corporates don't control it someone else [209:42] will [209:43] there's no real complete freedom so it's [209:46] either um public opinion or it's the [209:49] algorithm or it's a corporate it's just [209:52] that the corporates are more visible [209:53] they're more [209:54] >> I I think the kind of control that [209:56] they've established over the last uh 10 [209:58] years. Of course, you have the other end [210:00] of the spectrum where state-run media [210:03] pushes another agenda. So, [210:04] >> sure, [210:05] >> but at the end of the day, there are [210:06] enough independent um publications out [210:09] there. Those need to be supported and uh [210:13] I believe that that would really help [210:15] journalism in the the long run. But of [210:17] course, one should never give up hope. [210:19] >> Understood. Understood. Um, Gopal, what [210:23] about privacy and copyright and [210:27] attribution issues? I'm sure I I don't [210:30] know whether you've ever had that um [210:32] embarrassing or annoying or worrisome [210:34] email saying how did you use my photo or [210:37] how did you use this or you know or I [210:40] need some compensation. Have you ever [210:42] faced those those situations? [210:45] >> Not really because uh I shoot cities. [210:48] >> Okay. And I don't really concentrate on [210:50] people, [210:50] >> okay? [210:51] >> It is more about the city. And if I [210:52] shoot people, I place it in the context [210:55] of the city and it's all in the street. [210:57] I don't go into private spaces. Okay. [210:59] >> So, thanks to working with journalists [211:01] uh on on the field. [211:03] >> I figured out a nice soft [211:06] >> uh space. [211:08] >> Yeah. Where I can be [211:10] >> uh not intrusive. [211:12] >> Got it. But yeah, you should never like [211:15] uh like if you are going to shoot [211:17] somebody's portraits and putting out the [211:19] story, please ask and do it. So, [211:21] journalism has established rules of if [211:24] you just Google, you'll get all the [211:26] rules of how to photograph and how to [211:29] post, right? And one thing I mine is not [211:32] commercial. I mean, I don't do [211:34] commercial photography. [211:35] >> Got it. So, [211:36] >> but from from from what I've that [211:38] sometimes isn't sufficient protection [211:40] that you're not using somebody's [211:42] photograph for a non-commercial purpose [211:43] doesn't necessarily protect. [211:45] >> No, that journalism has its rules for [211:47] that. So, you just follow that. So, and [211:51] wherever creditors do, please put it [211:54] like that. [211:54] >> And so, do you have any plans to [211:56] actually collate or have you already [211:58] collated your photographs into a long [212:00] form book, maybe a a coffee? [212:01] >> I have a photo book that has come out [212:03] now. [212:03] >> Okay. uh which is which was done as part [212:06] of a journalist journalism project [212:08] earlier. [212:08] >> Okay. [212:08] >> And I have online books which I put but [212:10] my work is mostly online. It's so [212:12] wherever there's attention I go there. [212:14] So if if it was Instagram you'll find me [212:16] there. So when now Substack is popular [212:20] so I'm there. So wherever uh attention [212:24] is I'll put photographs right because I [212:26] have Mumbai as a storyteller [212:29] >> right [212:30] >> as as a as a place and me as a [212:32] storyteller and I'm anonymous mostly [212:34] >> okay not anymore [212:36] >> not anymore uh so I it's uh online I'm a [212:40] complete online but your earlier [212:42] question about where is journalism [212:44] headed I think uh uh people should take [212:48] over because uh [212:49] >> and and it's so sad said that [212:52] journalists are some of the most [212:53] brilliant minds. My I mean they are all [212:55] my friends actually from whom I learned. [212:57] You go into any newsroom or people who [212:59] are lapsed from it and retired. They [213:02] have so much of knowledge out there to [213:04] share. Please get them back uh get the [213:08] kick the big tech and uh corporates out [213:12] please find some I'll give you a good [213:14] example. People pay for uh economic [213:17] news, right? uh you take any of the like [213:20] the Kens and the other examples, people [213:23] pay for it uh for buying it. They don't [213:27] pay for the other news, but they pay for [213:28] this because there you have to be [213:30] factual. [213:30] >> Mhm. Mhm. [213:31] >> So I hope people will value facts and [213:35] depth and the stuff that they were [213:37] talking about, [213:38] >> right, [213:38] >> and start paying for it in some ways [213:40] directly to the producer, right, of [213:42] that. And I hope journalism and [213:44] journalists are back because we need [213:46] them to speak truth to power. [213:49] >> Right. Right. That's a good perspective. [213:50] Thank you Gopal. So Urashi, what's your [213:52] take on where is journalism going? [213:54] What's the is how much hope do you have? [213:56] What what worries do you have? If you [213:58] could just speak out your thoughts. [214:02] uh in terms of hope uh I think I'll have [214:06] to agree with uh what uh you know Gopal [214:08] said that uh a lot of uh newsrooms uh [214:14] and uh outlets which are trying to [214:17] survive and we're not talking about the [214:19] legacy publications here because you [214:21] know their budgeting and is completely [214:23] different but for uh independent [214:27] newsrooms the ones that have perhaps [214:29] come up in the last 5 10 15 or 20 years. [214:33] Uh there uh I think [214:37] now and then I'll see I'll see something [214:40] from alt news saying that we are uh 10 [214:43] lakhs short of our monthly budget or two [214:45] lakhs short of our monthly budget. Uh [214:48] please subscribe so you can see uh how [214:52] fine they're cutting it, right? But [214:54] that's the only way to go. Um [214:57] unfortunately [214:59] um and uh I think some publications they [215:03] do have a few uh you know core sponsors [215:06] who will give them some amount of money [215:08] every month but or every or annually but [215:12] uh it becomes extremely it becomes a [215:14] very slippery slope [215:16] >> um because as uh the environment for [215:21] freedom of expression shrinks so is [215:24] funding shrinking. Mhm. [215:26] >> Uh so uh earlier you know corporates who [215:30] would be very happy to give to a media [215:33] media organization would are now shying [215:35] away and so there is also this enormous [215:38] uh uh and my fear is of more of the [215:40] creep of self censorship where you know [215:44] nothing has happened to you as yet but [215:45] you fear that it could happen. [215:48] >> So you constantly think and rethink and [215:50] you're constantly selfcensoring [215:53] yourself. I think that's uh uh my fear [215:57] and I I can see it happen in in my [215:59] colleagues you know in the wider [216:00] ecosystem [216:02] >> where we're um [216:04] we are no longer able to call a spade a [216:07] spade and and there are people who do it [216:08] and [216:09] >> they do it with uh I mean we really have [216:13] to be very thankful to them. [216:15] >> Yeah. [216:16] >> Okay. Thank you. So have you experienced [216:20] self censorship AJ? What's your opinion [216:22] on that? That's an interesting um either [216:25] seen it in your colleagues or uh tempted [216:29] or pressured into doing that yourself or [216:31] are you have you resisted the [216:33] temptation? [216:34] >> See I see it uh you know within the [216:36] wider journalism fraternity the self [216:38] censorship it it's quite obvious [216:40] >> and how you report something [216:42] >> I see that I personally have not had to [216:48] uh indulge in self-censorship. [216:50] >> Okay. But then it's very clear, it's [216:53] visible. It's also how see for example, [216:55] I'll just take uh yesterday's news about [216:58] the Indian foreign ministry expressing [217:01] concern over the bombs in you know [217:04] Beirut and they didn't use the word [217:06] Israel there but we express concern [217:10] and we're part of this UN body etc etc. [217:14] Now [217:15] >> so that's the government speaking. No, [217:17] but how but read about how people have [217:20] written that then you'll know what [217:21] self-censorship. If somebody writes a [217:22] headline saying India expresses concern [217:25] over Israeli bombing of Beirut of [217:26] Lebanon, then you know the person's not [217:29] self censoring. If somebody's uses that [217:32] you know just copy paste that same [217:35] language and follows that then you know [217:37] who you don't want to annoy whether it's [217:39] here or somewhere else. [217:41] >> Okay. Okay. So that that unfortunately [217:43] brings us to the end of this interesting [217:45] session. Thank you so much all three of [217:47] you for expressing your opinions, your [217:49] thoughts and giving a little bit of um a [217:53] little bit of flavor of your each of [217:54] your uh mediums, each of your uh areas [217:58] of uh expertise. And we look forward to [218:01] seeing more content, seeing more [218:03] opinions and and your uh your [218:06] photographs, your articles and your [218:08] books and and uh in the future. Thank [218:10] you very much everyone. Thank you. Thank [218:12] you. Thank you. [218:24] So thank you for our moderator and [218:27] panelist for having such an amazing and [218:29] engaging discussion on journalism on the [218:32] open web. So now we have a small token [218:34] of appreciation from the community. [218:52] Thank you. [219:20] Yeah, thank you very much. Can we can we [219:22] just have a quick photo of the Okay. [219:26] >> Sure. Do we show this or [219:27] >> Yeah. [219:33] >> I don't know which flash to wait for. [219:38] Okay, thank you so much everyone. Thank [219:40] you. Thank you all of you. Thank you so [219:41] much. [219:54] Thank you everyone. Now we have break [219:56] for lunch. [220:15] Everybody,