Yorker  ## Metadata - Author: [[Crossword]] - Full Title: Yorker - Category: #podcasts - URL: https://share.snipd.com/episode/618a7d1c-6309-4776-8b14-b14dda4e2264 ## Document Notes ## Highlights - **Unusually High Interview Nerves** - Jonathan and Luke felt unusually nervous preparing to interview Matt Mullenweg, more than prior guests. - Their nervousness mixed respect and worry about saying something that might offend him or get them Transcript: Jonathan Luke, I don't know if I've ever felt as nervous as I have over the past couple of days in preparing for a guest conversation as the one that we just finished a few minutes ago. How are you feeling? Luke I also felt nervous, but not for the traditional, you know, we started this podcast all these years ago, a long time ago now. Jonathan More than five. I think it's like six plus at this point. Luke One of the reasons we did it, we thought, oh, this way we'll get to talk to people that we admire and we want to speak to. And, you know, starting a podcast is great for that. And there's been a few times where I've been nervous, right? Like Ryan Singer, I feel like I really botched that Perspectives episode because I was so nervous about it. And I was nervous also for John Gruber because I read him forever. I look up to him. But he did a really good job of setting me at ease. And I was nervous to speak to Matt Mullenweg too, but for a different reason. Jonathan What was the different reason, Luke? Luke Well, I've spoken to Matt privately and in person and whatever a few times we've met. So like the nervousness about like, what's he like? It was not there but i guess like i was nervous that i might say something that he would get offended at and then he would decide no these crossword guys they're no good and they have to be Banned i don't but no to be fair like to be completely fair i think that that matt was an absolute champion in that interview and he was completely reasonable. ([Time 0:00:03](https://share.snipd.com/snip/1e14d78f-f3ca-49ee-a05c-add5f4ac6d2d)) - **Preparation Fueled By Stakes And History** - They prepared more than usual because this interview caps multiple seasons and connects to ongoing project tensions. - The hosts wrestled with balancing personal feelings, fairness, and not doing a 'gotcha' interview. Transcript: Jonathan We don't want to overdo it. Right. But we did some of the most prep for this of, I think, at least for me, the most prep that I've ever done. Luke Yeah, yeah, me too. And I think the reason for that is, we talked to John Gruber, for example, you know, or Mary, and those were big, important perspectives episodes, but they were standalone in a sense. Whereas this for me is putting a kind of a cap on the last three seasons of Crossword. Right. Jonathan So I went back through and what we did is we split up our episodes together over season seven and eight. You listened to half, I listened to roughly the other half. And a couple of things that stood out to me there was one so first did you not do your season nine homework i didn't do season nine homework it's fresh enough on my head yeah a couple of things That stood out to me first was you famously calling out the fact that matt would not come on the show oh i did say that a long time ago. Luke Yeah. In like season seven or something. Right. Jonathan You're like, Matt wouldn't come on onto this, this podcast. So, uh, about that. He did. Um, the, the second is I, I, there was an episode that just really hit me. Uh, you were expressing how concerned that you were about the impact to you personally. And as I was listening back through it, and I, some of the same for me, because this is coming right off our WordCamp US experience. And we were feeling a lot of things and, and we used the, the context of our conversations together to process a lot of that. And it was really helpful for me to go back through and just remind me like, wow, this, this has really had a big personal impact on us. Luke Yeah, that was right around the time when a bunch of friends and people I admire in the project were getting banned for seemingly no good reason. And I was nervous that like just talking on Crossword would also get me banned. And I guess that's an extension of that is why I was nervous to talk to Matt today. But I just, I do want to be clear, like we have to give the guy credit. Like he came on Crossword. He talked to us about difficult topics. And, you know, I think he was open and honest with us. And I think it's a good episode. Jonathan Yeah. As I've been thinking back, like over this experience and in preparing for this, this question was like, well, what do we talk about with him? Right. Because we get feedback from folks who listen and they'll have ideas for questions or, oh, you guys should really, she should go on this or et cetera. And one of the discussions that you and I have had, we touched on in the last episode, because we're not journalists, right? Yes. We respect the work that journalists do. And yet we also feel this personal sense of like responsibility, even just in our own relationship to this project and this community, this ecosystem. So it was a bit of a struggle of like, what questions do we focus on? We don't want to do anything that makes Matt feel like it's a gotcha. We're not here to get some, some like confession out of him about something or get him to admit something. Like that wasn't the point. And I found it a bit of a struggle of how do I, like, where do we go with this? We don't want to just talk about AI. We don't want to just do some like talking points and how do we, how do we make it personal? And I found that really valuable. And it took a lot of time to work through that. ([Time 0:02:01](https://share.snipd.com/snip/22249dfd-cd4a-4603-898d-a0d7e497353e)) - **Matt Came Through In Conversation** - Luke and Jonathan described the interview as honest and substantive, saying Matt was open and reasonable. - Luke emphasized Matt was a 'champion' in the conversation and they felt grateful for his time. Transcript: Luke Well, whatever. It's been said a thousand times, but I really think we just were true to ourselves and true to like what our show is like. So we talked about our feelings and all that. Are we recording right now? Are we recording a crossword episode or are we recording the intro to the next Perspective episode? Jonathan No, this is the episode. This is the episode. So, Luke, you've spoiled it twice already, which is to say that you thought it was good. So let's, we're going to record the intro for it later. But what did you like about the episode? Did you want me to tell listeners I thought it was bad? Luke I think we should leave the specifics for the episode. That's what we won't spoil. There was one question or one thing I wish I said that in these perspectives episodes that we do, I always leave going, oh, there was this one thing that I wish I said. And since it's not in that episode, maybe I should say it now. Go for it. You can throw it out there. It really bugs me when, and having just spoken to him, like I feel like I would have, if we had time, I would have said this directly to his face, right? So directly to his face is more fiery than I intended. I didn't mean it in an aggressive way. I would have said this if we had the time. So I don't mean this is like a backhanded or an under the table sort of comment. I want it to be fair. Jonathan We wanted to respect his time. We're really grateful that he gave it to us, but there's only so much you can fit in. Luke So the thing that he had said that, you know, that because Silver Lake, WP Engine, they were suing him. Sorry, they were suing the project, right? They were suing the project and we should all feel bad about it but that they're not then the suits are against matt mullinwig they're not against wordpress.org as far as i know wasn't Jonathan Weren't wasn't it named in the suit wasn't that part of the the initial i couldn't remember as you were like as you were as you i'm hearing you say that it's like i thought that it was named And maybe we got dropped out of it, but like they did try to do like a far reaching. And then he's like, oh, this is my personal site was part of his response to it. Maybe I'm just remembering. Luke The, the, the context is that, you know, WordPress does belong to Matt because he's the one liable for it if someone decides to sue. And I don't think that's true, right? Like, because Silver Lake and WP Engine aren't going after the project. That's nonsense. Like, why would anybody be trying to, Wix might go after the project, right? Whatever, like various different website builders might go after the project and try and sue the project, in which case we would all feel ownership of that court case. But WP Engine aren't going after the project. They rely on the project and for the project to continue in a positive way. What they're going after is the negative things that Matt said about them on stage and they're going directly after, after Matt. We didn't have any choice about being dragged into this. Right. Right. Jonathan Well, so Luke, here's what I'm curious about. So we had the conversation, we had things that we took away from it and our, and our listeners can decide for themselves, like what, uh, you know, what they, uh, I'm, I'm happy. I'm really happy with we navigated. And I feel really grateful for Matt, for coming on and sharing that time with us. ([Time 0:05:32](https://share.snipd.com/snip/e5d3b1d4-028e-4f39-af3c-4348c60a2965)) - **Disagreement Over Who Was Sued** - Luke wanted to challenge Matt about who the lawsuits targeted and felt he didn't fully accept the hosts' perspective. - He argued WP Engine and Silver Lake seemed to sue Matt personally, not the project, which affected community perceptions. Transcript: Luke The thing that he had said that, you know, that because Silver Lake, WP Engine, they were suing him. Sorry, they were suing the project, right? They were suing the project and we should all feel bad about it but that they're not then the suits are against matt mullinwig they're not against wordpress.org as far as i know wasn't Jonathan Weren't wasn't it named in the suit wasn't that part of the the initial i couldn't remember as you were like as you were as you i'm hearing you say that it's like i thought that it was named And maybe we got dropped out of it, but like they did try to do like a far reaching. And then he's like, oh, this is my personal site was part of his response to it. Maybe I'm just remembering. Luke The, the, the context is that, you know, WordPress does belong to Matt because he's the one liable for it if someone decides to sue. And I don't think that's true, right? Like, because Silver Lake and WP Engine aren't going after the project. That's nonsense. Like, why would anybody be trying to, Wix might go after the project, right? Whatever, like various different website builders might go after the project and try and sue the project, in which case we would all feel ownership of that court case. But WP Engine aren't going after the project. They rely on the project and for the project to continue in a positive way. What they're going after is the negative things that Matt said about them on stage and they're going directly after, after Matt. We didn't have any choice about being dragged into this. ([Time 0:07:13](https://share.snipd.com/snip/8091fd15-5694-4ef6-a158-f66842e5f6d9)) - **Sincerity Versus Consequences** - Both hosts noticed Matt's sincerity and willingness to take risks, even when those actions had unintended consequences. - They observed sincerity matters but doesn't replace the need for responsible actions that avoid harming others. Transcript: Jonathan Of the things that stands out to me and we've talked about this consistently over the seasons is matt's sincerity and whether he's right or wrong in the end uh he certainly and most i would Say most people like believe that they're right but i i would argue that matt seems to especially feel like the risks that he's willing to take and the things that he was willing to say Like the first couple of podcasts that he did after the lawsuits like i remember listening like man i can't believe you're doing this like you're you're digging a deeper hole for yourself And yet there it seemed that this it seemed it was coming from a place of truly believing that he was fighting the good fight like doing the thing that needed to get done. And it sounds, at least from my perspective, he's, it seems like he's learned a lot in this process. And I appreciate the sincerity. Sincerity alone isn't enough to like take us in the right direction. It's important to me personally, because I think it's a one thing and then actions are an entirely they have to be consistent because even if your intentions are good, if you if your actions Cause harm, if you're if you're causing if there's there's always gonna be unintended consequences. And this is something I think I've seen pretty consistently is even though Matt believes that he's doing well and I and I can give him the benefit of the doubt. ([Time 0:10:53](https://share.snipd.com/snip/b86d779a-e3d1-4d60-a836-0b9af11465a7)) - **Actions Force Listener Loyalties** - Luke admitted Matt's actions pushed him to side with WP Engine despite disagreeing with their past contributions. - The episode highlighted how actions and tone can force listeners to choose sides, changing loyalties. Transcript: Luke Another thing i wish i'd have been able to say is you know speaking about like whose side should you take? Because definitely Matt wants you to pick a side. Then I wish I could have said, I would have defaulted 100% to your side. I would have defaulted to the side of WordPress.org. I agree. WP Engine has not traditionally and does not contribute enough. 100%. But because of the way you went about things, because of the way that you targeted and attacked, because of your actions, I'm left forced to support WP Engine. Because what you're doing is not okay. Anyway, I didn't say that. ([Time 0:12:20](https://share.snipd.com/snip/9a1023e3-7ca0-4196-94e7-89fd2c732cfa)) - **Luke's Missed Opportunity** - Luke wishes he had directly told Matt Mullenweg that he would have defaulted to supporting WordPress.org. - However, Matt's aggressive actions forced Luke to support WP Engine instead. - Luke felt that Matt's behavior of targeting and attacking others was unacceptable. - Jonathan noted that Luke had some pretty good puns throughout the season. - Jonathan also had a cricket reference that he couldn't quite work in. Transcript: Luke Another thing i wish i'd have been able to say is you know speaking about like whose side should you take? Because definitely Matt wants you to pick a side. Then I wish I could have said, I would have defaulted 100% to your side. I would have defaulted to the side of WordPress.org. I agree. WP Engine has not traditionally and does not contribute enough. 100%. But because of the way you went about things, because of the way that you targeted and attacked, because of your actions, I'm left forced to support WP Engine. Because what you're doing is not okay. Anyway, I didn't say that. Spoiler. Jonathan One of the highlights for me by the way is that you you had some pretty good puns uh throughout the season that i think you referred to like the mataclysm or the map apocalypse and i don't Think so i'm hoping that those uh no longer be are relevant for us in the future but it was uh i got to chuckle a couple of times out of listening to some of the stuff. Yeah. Luke And I mean, just to be clear, it wasn't all the whole interview wasn't all just like nothing questions. It wasn't all roses. Like I threw a few Yorkers in there and, and so did you, by the way. Yep. And so did you, by the way. Like there were some really tough questions and some questions that I think, not that we set out to stump anyone, right? We were just sharing how we really feel. And I think that that got through. Jonathan I had one disappointment, Luke. What was that? I had an idea for a cricket reference that I couldn't quite work in, but it was shaping up. Shortly after he was talking about Antarctica, I was like, okay, there's something here, but I didn't quite get that over the line. Luke, as ([Time 0:12:20](https://share.snipd.com/snip/933f0590-9999-4314-a3ae-658bc3d543a5)) - **Prepare For 6.9 And AI-Focused Topics** - Expect more coverage of WordPress 6.9 and AI themes in upcoming episodes. - Study AI's intersection with education and themes to prepare for future project discussions. Transcript: Luke Are you looking forward to? Normally, in this sort of world, no news is good news, right? But that's not the case for us as we have a podcast. So I guess we're going to speak about 6.9. There's a lot of AI and I've been studying AI really extensively from the perspective of the intersection with education. ([Time 0:14:31](https://share.snipd.com/snip/0fe7ee3f-284d-4a3e-ac0c-889ac432f77a))