Your Questions, Answered by the People Shaping WooCommerce

Your Questions, Answered by the People Shaping WooCommerce 🔗 **Source:** [Your Questions, Answered by the People Shaping WooCommerce](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yistFwxFhx0) > [!note]+ Document Notes > tags: [woocommerce, ecommerce, product-management, wordpress, business-strategy] > author: Do the Woo > source: YouTube > reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yistFwxFhx0 > date created: 2024-12-30 00:43 > > # 🏷️ Title: Your Questions, Answered by the People Shaping WooCommerce >  ## 🧰 Action Inbox - [H1] Consider WooCon 2024 event planning — funding and venue considerations #events - [H2] Implement commerce-focused admin mode with toggle option — backward compatibility challenges #ui-ux - [H3] Develop UCP/ACP integration strategy for AI commerce — 4% merchant fee capture #ai-commerce ## 🧭 Table of Contents - [📝 Summary](#-summary) - [📖 Main Content](#-main-content) - [🗒️ Notes](#️-notes) - [📚 References](#-references) - [🗣️ Paraphrase](#️-paraphrase) - [📰 Newsletter](#-newsletter) - [✅ Action Items](#-action-items) - [🧪 Hypotheses](#-hypotheses) - [📊 Methodology](#-methodology) - [❓ Questions](#-questions) - [🔮 Future Research](#-future-research) - [💡 Implications](#-implications) - [🧠 Learning Styles Assessment](#-learning-styles-assessment) - [📊 Accessibility Assessment](#-accessibility-assessment) - [🌍 DEIB Assessment](#-deib-assessment) - [✅ Logical Validity](#-logical-validity) - [🛡️ DARVO Analysis](#-darvo-analysis) - [🎯 Conclusion](#-conclusion) ### 🔗 References - [Loop WP Newsletter Issue 191](https://loopwp.com/newsletter/191) - [WP Repository Coverage](https://wprepository.com) - [Kestrel WP](https://kestrelwp.com) ## 📝 Summary - WooCommerce leadership discusses strategic priorities and community feedback following the Matt Mullenweg interview - Bo Leven (Artistic Director) and James Kemp (Core Product Manager) address merchant needs, agency programs, and technical roadmap - Key topics include competitive positioning, AI commerce integration, admin experience improvements, and event planning - Focus on balancing open source flexibility with user-friendly defaults and professional enterprise experience - Strategic challenges around backward compatibility, plugin ecosystem coordination, and diverse stakeholder needs ## 📖 Main Content This episode addresses specific questions from the WooCommerce community that weren't covered in the previous Matt Mullenweg interview. The discussion focuses on practical implementation challenges rather than high-level vision, with Bo Leven and James Kemp providing detailed insights into decision-making processes at WooCommerce. The conversation reveals tension between maintaining WordPress's open, flexible architecture while creating a more streamlined, commerce-focused experience. Key themes include the need for better merchant onboarding, cleaner admin interfaces, and positioning against platforms like Shopify while preserving WooCommerce's core value proposition of ownership and control. Technical discussions cover emerging AI commerce protocols (UCP/ACP), the complexity of WordPress plugin ecosystem coordination, and the challenges of implementing design system standards across thousands of third-party extensions. ## 🗒️ Notes #### ⏱️ [00:00](https://youtu.be/yistFwxFhx0?t=0) — [H1] Episode Introduction and Guest Introductions - Key idea: Follow-up episode addressing specific WooCommerce operational questions - Evidence: "Questions that people presubmitted for that interview were more focused on specific plans at Woo" #### ⏱️ [03:45](https://youtu.be/yistFwxFhx0?t=225) — [H2] Bo Leven's Role as Artistic Director Explained - Key idea: Artistic Director role spans product, business, partnerships, and commercial operations - Evidence: "My responsibility spans the product, the business, partnerships, sort of all of the commercial side of things" #### ⏱️ [06:12](https://youtu.be/yistFwxFhx0?t=372) — [H1] WooCommerce's Competitive Advantages Beyond Open Source - Key idea: Merchants care about ownership when they realize they don't have it - Evidence: "Merchants very much care about ownership the second they realize they don't have it" #### ⏱️ [09:30](https://youtu.be/yistFwxFhx0?t=570) — [H2] Control and Customization as Key Differentiators - Key idea: Freedom translates to practical control for merchants in their specific use cases - Evidence: "They have the ability to do things on their own store that they just can't do on a shared platform" #### ⏱️ [12:18](https://youtu.be/yistFwxFhx0?t=738) — [H1] WooCon Event Planning Considerations - Key idea: WooCommerce exploring bringing back WooCon but requires significant resource commitment - Evidence: "We're very much looking at that... when we do anything like that, we have to look at how much are we going to spend on it" #### ⏱️ [16:45](https://youtu.be/yistFwxFhx0?t=1005) — [H3] WordCamp Integration Challenges for WooCommerce Events - Key idea: WordCamps are volunteer-run and avoid promoting specific products - Evidence: "WordCamps are organized by a group primarily of volunteers... they don't want to be seen like pushing one specific product" #### ⏱️ [20:22](https://youtu.be/yistFwxFhx0?t=1222) — [H2] Multi-Stakeholder Prioritization Strategy - Key idea: WooCommerce balances merchants, builders, agencies, and shoppers as key stakeholders - Evidence: "We really are always prioritizing some combination of merchants, builders... and agencies" #### ⏱️ [24:35](https://youtu.be/yistFwxFhx0?t=1475) — [H1] AI Commerce Protocol Development (UCP/ACP) - Key idea: Most AI commerce features are still in closed beta, not broadly adopted - Evidence: "If you dig into them they're not actually live... you can think of them basically as beta" #### ⏱️ [28:50](https://youtu.be/yistFwxFhx0?t=1730) — [H2] Transaction Data Sources and AI Referrals - Key idea: Seeing significant AI-referred sales but not true agentic purchases yet - Evidence: "We're seeing a lot of that... where a user is engaging with an AI... then they go make that purchase" #### ⏱️ [32:15](https://youtu.be/yistFwxFhx0?t=1935) — [H3] 4% Merchant Fee Integration for AI Commerce - Key idea: Fee integration will start with WooCommerce payment plugins using shared payment tokens - Evidence: "The 4% fee... is something that we would probably integrate with our own payment plugins to begin with" #### ⏱️ [35:40](https://youtu.be/yistFwxFhx0?t=2140) — [H1] Admin Experience and Enterprise Professionalism - Key idea: Messy admin experience is a shared ecosystem problem requiring framework-level solutions - Evidence: "Every single different vendor... is partially responsible for this... it's actually kind of a platform or framework level issue" #### ⏱️ [42:30](https://youtu.be/yistFwxFhx0?t=2550) — [H2] WordPress Design System Progress - Key idea: WordPress design system work addresses WooCommerce's enterprise UI needs - Evidence: "The work that's going on... coming out of the Gutenberg project and driving the WordPress design system... is really doing some great work" #### ⏱️ [47:15](https://youtu.be/yistFwxFhx0?t=2835) — [H1] Commerce Mode for Admin Interface - Key idea: Users increasingly identify as WooCommerce users, not WordPress users - Evidence: "WooCommerce users... they identify as WooCommerce users not as WordPress users" #### ⏱️ [52:45](https://youtu.be/yistFwxFhx0?t=3165) — [H2] Technical Challenges of Menu Restructuring - Key idea: Moving menu items breaks plugin integration due to WordPress page ID dependencies - Evidence: "Moving orders just one level up completely changes that ID... plugins use to extend or add to those pages" #### ⏱️ [56:20](https://youtu.be/yistFwxFhx0?t=3380) — [H1] Hosted WooCommerce Platform Discussion - Key idea: Separate fork maintenance would be too resource-intensive for Automattic - Evidence: "Anything along the lines of fully forking and maintaining a separate version is a bit of a nightmare" ## 📚 References - [GitHub Orders Menu PR](https://github.com/woocommerce/woocommerce) - [WordPress Admin Redesign Project](https://wordpress.org) - [Checkout Summit Event](https://checkoutsummit.com) - [Loop WP Newsletter](https://loopwp.com) ## 🗣️ Paraphrase - WooCommerce's main competitive advantage is merchant control and ownership, but this needs better communication focused on practical benefits rather than abstract open source concepts - The team is seriously considering bringing back WooCon but needs to ensure sufficient resources for a high-quality, sustainable event - AI commerce integration is progressing with UCP/ACP protocols, though most implementations are still in beta with limited real-world adoption ## 📰 Newsletter **WooCommerce Leadership Shares Strategic Insights on Community Priorities** The WooCommerce team recently addressed community questions about platform direction, revealing interesting developments for WordPress shop owners and developers. Key highlights include potential plans for WooCon 2024, progress on AI commerce integration, and upcoming admin interface improvements. The team emphasized their focus on merchant control and customization as core competitive advantages while working to simplify the user experience. For developers, there's important news about design system standardization and backward compatibility considerations for upcoming UI changes. The discussion of "commerce mode" for the WordPress admin could significantly impact how clients experience their online stores. **Resources:** [Learn WordPress](https://learn.wordpress.org/), [Developer Docs](https://developer.wordpress.org/), [WP-CLI](https://wp-cli.org/) ## ✅ Action Items #### WordPress - Core: Notifications API implementation for reducing admin banner clutter - Design: WordPress design system expansion for commerce use cases - Meta: WordCamp integration policies for product-specific events #### WooCommerce - Core: Orders menu top-level migration with backward compatibility - Core: Commerce mode development with user role integration - Core: Settings menu restructuring based on community feedback - Marketing: Ownership benefits communication strategy for merchants - Events: WooCon 2024 feasibility assessment and budget planning - AI: UCP/ACP protocol integration with payment plugins - Design: Enterprise-level admin experience improvements #### Community - Agencies: A4A program expansion and freelancer inclusion criteria - Developers: Backward compatibility guidance for UI transitions - Events: Checkout Summit support and community event coordination ## 🧪 Hypotheses - Merchants will prefer commerce-focused admin interface over WordPress-centric navigation - Open source messaging resonates better when framed as "control" rather than "freedom" - AI commerce adoption will accelerate once major platforms move beyond closed beta - Unified design system will significantly improve plugin ecosystem consistency ### 📊 Methodology - User research with enterprise merchants on admin experience preferences - A/B testing of commerce mode vs traditional WordPress admin - Community surveys on event preferences and resource allocation - Plugin developer interviews on design system adoption barriers ### ❓ Questions - How can WooCommerce communicate ownership benefits before merchants experience platform limitations? - What's the optimal balance between opinionated defaults and customization flexibility? - How should AI commerce fee structures evolve as adoption increases? ### 🔮 Future Research - Enterprise merchant onboarding friction analysis - Plugin ecosystem impact assessment for major UI changes - AI commerce protocol standardization timeline and competitive positioning ### 💡 Implications - Practice: Admin interface changes will require developer education and migration planning - Policy: Need clear guidelines for design system adoption and backward compatibility - Security: AI commerce integration introduces new payment flow security considerations - Education: Community needs better understanding of ownership vs convenience tradeoffs - Funding: WooCon revival requires significant resource commitment and ROI analysis ### 🧠 Learning Styles Assessment Reading level estimate: 12th grade (complex business and technical concepts) #### 👀 Visual learners - Present: Screenshots of admin interface examples would enhance understanding - Improve: Mockups of proposed commerce mode, workflow diagrams for AI integration #### 🔊 Aural learners - Present: Podcast format with clear speaker transitions - Improve: Audio chapter markers, key point summaries #### 🗣️ Verbal learners - Present: Technical terms explained in context, business analogies - Improve: Glossary of WooCommerce-specific terminology #### 🧩 Kinesthetic learners - Present: References to GitHub PRs and community discussions for hands-on exploration - Improve: Interactive demos of proposed features, sandbox environments #### 🧠 Logical learners - Present: Clear cause-and-effect reasoning for technical decisions - Improve: Decision trees for feature prioritization, cost-benefit analyses #### 🧑‍🤝‍🧑 Social learners - Present: Community Q&A format, multiple perspectives from different roles - Improve: Discussion forums, collaborative feedback mechanisms #### 🧘‍♀️ Solitary learners - Present: Individual reflection opportunities through specific questions - Improve: Self-assessment tools for admin interface preferences #### 🌿 Naturalistic learners - Present: Ecosystem thinking about WordPress plugin relationships - Improve: Market environment analysis, competitive landscape mapping ### 📊 Accessibility Assessment #### Screen reader semantics - Present: Clear heading structure, speaker identification - Improve: Descriptive link text, ARIA labels for interface examples #### Keyboard navigation - Present: Standard video player controls - Improve: Timestamped navigation shortcuts, transcript synchronization #### Contrast and readability - Present: Standard video player interface - Improve: High-contrast transcript options, adjustable text size #### Text resizing and reflow - Present: Responsive video player - Improve: Reflowable transcript layout, zoom-friendly interface #### Media and captions - Present: Audio content available - Improve: Professional captions, downloadable transcript #### Forms and interactions - Present: Comment functionality for live questions - Improve: Accessible comment moderation, keyboard-navigable controls ### 🌍 DEIB Assessment #### Cultural breadth - Present: Global merchant perspectives mentioned - Improve: International market examples, non-US hosting considerations #### Inclusive language - Present: Professional, technical terminology with explanations - Improve: Plain language summaries, avoid insider jargon #### Neurodiversity support - Present: Structured conversation format with clear topics - Improve: Visual topic transitions, consistent speaker patterns #### Representation - Present: Multiple organizational roles and perspectives - Improve: Diverse use case examples, varied business models #### Psychological safety - Present: Respectful discussion of community concerns - Improve: Clear feedback channels, constructive criticism framing ### ✅ Logical Validity #### Strong reasoning - Deductive strength: Business decisions follow from resource constraints and user needs - Inductive strength: Past plugin adoption patterns inform design system approaches - Causal reasoning: Open source flexibility creates both benefits and complexity - Analogical strength: WordPress admin challenges parallel broader platform decisions #### Fallacies - False dichotomy: Presenting hosted vs. self-hosted as either/or choice rather than spectrum - Appeal to complexity: Using technical challenges to avoid addressing user experience problems - Hasty generalization: Extrapolating from enterprise merchant needs to all users #### Tone of voice - Overall tone: Professional and collaborative with acknowledgment of challenges and community input ### 🛡️ DARVO Analysis - Deny: No significant denial patterns observed - Attack: No attacks on community members or competitors - Reverse victim/offender: No victim/offender reversal present - Emotional cues and rhetoric: Balanced discussion of tradeoffs and challenges ## 🎯 Conclusion This episode provides valuable insight into WooCommerce's strategic thinking and implementation challenges. The key takeaway is that while the platform aims to become more commerce-focused and user-friendly, every change must carefully balance backward compatibility, plugin ecosystem stability, and diverse stakeholder needs. For WordPress professionals --- ## Full Transcript [00:19] Hello, welcome to the second episode of [00:22] [clears throat] Do the Woo, uh the [00:23] podcast where we talk about all things [00:25] Woo Commerce and I'm James Kemp. I'm the [00:27] core product manager at Woo Commerce. [00:30] >> And I'm Katy Keith, founder and CEO at [00:34] Barn 2. Two weeks ago, we interviewed [00:37] Matt Mullenweg about the future of Woo [00:40] Commerce. And a lot of the questions [00:42] that people presubmitted for that [00:44] interview were more focused on specific [00:46] plans at Woo. So, what we decided was [00:49] that instead of doing those questions, [00:51] then we would do an extra episode where [00:53] we put those questions to the people who [00:55] are responsible for the day-to-day [00:57] decision making at Woo. Now, we already [01:00] have James, uh, core product manager, as [01:02] he just said, as co-host. Uh, so he's [01:05] already perfectly placed to answer those [01:07] questions. And in addition to join him, [01:10] we've invited Bo Leven, artistic [01:12] director and lead at Woo. [01:15] >> Hey. Hey, Bo. [01:16] >> Hey, everybody. Good to be here. How you [01:19] doing? [01:20] >> Good to have you. Uh do you want to talk [01:23] a little about a little bit about what [01:25] your role is uh at Woo Commerce so that [01:29] people get a understanding of what [01:30] you're dealing with on a daily basis? [01:33] >> Yeah, sure. Uh so obviously uh my title [01:36] is maybe a non-standard one in the [01:38] space. Um so my title is artistic [01:40] director which is uh sort of a nod to [01:44] the craft of creating good products [01:47] basically. Uh so my responsibility spans [01:50] um the product, the business, uh [01:53] partnerships, sort of all of the [01:54] commercial side of things. Uh my [01:56] background is in engineering. Um and so [01:59] I sort of came came up through an [02:01] engineering uh line of work into product [02:05] and then now I'm responsible for the [02:06] entire WO business uh which spans the [02:09] sort of commercial side of it, the [02:10] community side of it um and all of the [02:13] software that makes that work. [02:16] >> Yeah. And that is exactly why we thought [02:17] that you were the person for the [02:19] questions that we've got today. [02:21] >> Yeah, look forward to it. [02:23] >> Thank you so much to all of those of you [02:25] who have already presubmitted questions [02:27] on social media. For those of you [02:29] watching live, you can ask B and James [02:32] your questions about anything to do with [02:34] Woo Commerce in the comments wherever [02:36] you're watching this and we'll try to [02:37] get to them during the live show. [02:42] >> Yeah. And before we dive in to the Q&A, [02:45] um we'd love if you could subscribe to [02:48] Do the Woo. Uh so we are part of the [02:51] Open Channels network and you will need [02:53] to subscribe individually at dotheoo.com [02:57] uh on YouTube at youtube.comdowthew. [03:08] >> Now let's get into the questions. First, [03:11] I'd like to do a group of questions uh [03:14] which Simon Harper basically published. [03:17] He did a commentary following the Matt [03:19] Mulleng interview where he raised some [03:21] lots of points, very interesting and [03:23] well thought through points. I'm just [03:25] going to put on the screen um for people [03:28] watching where there's video and a link [03:31] to his newsletter. It's the latest issue [03:33] of Loop WP newsletter issue 191. Um, so [03:38] if you're not already subscribed, then [03:39] you can do that and look at past [03:41] episodes. And other people also featured [03:44] the Matt Mullenweg interview, which was [03:45] great, such as the uh WP repository and [03:49] on X. Um, so we're going to go through [03:53] Simon's comments, which I've for some [03:55] reason lost in my notes. Um, [04:02] here's one of them. So, one question [04:04] that Simon had was about [04:08] from a sorry I've lost my place here [04:10] from a store owner's perspective. Oh, [04:12] yes. This was a bit about what are Woo [04:14] Commerce's competitive advantages and [04:16] how do they set Woo up for success in [04:18] the next five years. And Matt Mulleng [04:21] answered this question and he talked [04:23] largely about freedom being Woo [04:25] Commerce's biggest competitive advantage [04:28] and he also referred to open source and [04:31] Simon's response was that he understands [04:34] that from a development agency or a [04:37] builder perspective but what about from [04:39] a store owner perspective most don't [04:42] care about ownership or open source they [04:44] want something easy to use with as [04:46] little friction as possible. Yeah. Yeah. [04:50] It's a great question. Uh, so I think [04:52] I'll I'll start by agreeing with at [04:53] least the second half of what Simon's [04:54] saying there. Um, and and having a great [04:57] product that, you know, doesn't [04:58] introduce friction, that doesn't cost [05:00] too much, uh, that does all the things [05:02] that you need it to do. That's kind of a [05:04] baseline that that applies to everybody, [05:06] right? Um, on the point about, uh, [05:08] merchants not really caring about [05:11] ownership or open source, I think that's [05:13] a little bit of a failing of us, [05:14] frankly, us as a community. um helping [05:17] people understand the importance of [05:18] ownership. Um because merchants very [05:21] much care about ownership the second [05:23] they realize they don't have it. Uh and [05:26] so the you know you see this all over X [05:28] in particular. Um people who have been [05:31] like deplatformed or they can't do a [05:35] thing that they want to do because their [05:36] platform doesn't allow them to do that. [05:38] Uh and that's when they suddenly realize [05:40] like oh ownership is actually really [05:42] important and the best way that I get [05:43] that is open source. Um, so I think [05:45] that's that's like an education thing. [05:47] Um, but that's obviously not going to be [05:50] the the singular thing that makes the [05:51] difference. Uh, I think what comes along [05:54] with the open source nature of Woo. Um, [05:57] and that level of ownership and that [05:59] that freedom is the flexibility and the [06:01] customization. Um, and so so it's [06:03] actually sort of more of a control [06:05] thing. uh I often think of the uh [06:08] ownership side of things from a lens of [06:11] control for the user that is for the [06:13] merchant and so they have the ability to [06:16] do things on their own store that they [06:18] just can't do on a on a shared platform [06:21] where somebody else controls their [06:22] codebase somebody else is doing uh all [06:25] of their you know scaling and [06:27] maintenance and security and building [06:29] the product for them. Um, [06:32] if they don't have any ability to [06:34] customize that, then that's a real [06:37] blocker for a lot of merchants. They [06:39] want to do something different or [06:41] specific or, you know, they're in a [06:44] highly regulated market and being hosted [06:46] on somebody else's platform is just not [06:49] not a legal option for them or it's not [06:51] a preference or whatever. Um, and in all [06:53] of those types of use cases, Woo really [06:55] shines because people can take it and do [06:58] whatever they need to do with it. So I I [07:01] think of that I think that freedom piece [07:02] is really important. Um and from a [07:04] merchants's perspective I think the the [07:06] way we talk about that is actually more [07:08] about control than freedom control in [07:10] their hands. That is [07:12] >> yeah I totally agree. Um if we just say [07:15] open source what does that mean? We need [07:17] to talk about the benefit to the [07:18] merchant which might be freedom [07:20] flexibility and we need to be as [07:23] specific as possible so that they know [07:25] why it's a benefit. And I love your [07:27] point about the um they only miss things [07:30] like the lack of data ownership when [07:31] they've had a problem as a result. So [07:34] that's not a good selling point in the [07:35] first place. You need [laughter] to pick [07:36] out what those selling points are. And [07:39] >> yeah, [07:39] >> it's kind of the same as selling [07:40] security software or I guess insurance [07:43] of any kind. It's like nobody really [07:45] wants it and it's very difficult to [07:47] explain why you need it until you've had [07:50] some experience where it would have been [07:52] good to have it. [07:56] Now let's move on to events. So we were [08:00] talking with Matt Mulleng about whether [08:02] there was going to be more Woo Commerce [08:04] coverage at flagship word camps. He [08:06] spoke uh very positively about how he [08:10] would like to see Woo Commerce featured [08:11] more at word camps. He encouraged the [08:13] community to submit talks. I've already [08:15] heard of some people who are planning to [08:17] submit talks as a result of this. And he [08:20] also said, "I think this would be a cool [08:22] year to see another Woo Comp, the last [08:24] one having been in 2017." [08:27] And Simon's [clears throat] [08:28] followup in Loop WP was, "I don't think [08:31] this should be the community's sole [08:33] responsibility with Checkout Summit, [08:35] which is an independent event that's [08:37] coming up about Woo Commerce. There is a [08:39] clear community." Oh, it's gone. Uh, [08:41] there is a clear community appetite for [08:43] a dedicated Woo Commerce event. [08:46] automatic should be intentional about [08:48] this. So, the pressure is on. [laughter] [08:52] >> Yeah, I guess uh I'll agree with both [08:55] Matt and uh Simon. Um like I I would [08:58] love to see a Woo this year. Um [09:01] candidly, it is something that we're [09:02] looking at internally to see like can we [09:04] do it at the level that we want to do it [09:06] at. Um I'll say shout out to Ralpho. [09:08] checkout. I love that he's putting on a [09:11] checkout summit and I know we're a [09:13] headline sponsor for that event cuz [09:15] we're really happy to see events in the [09:17] community. Um, you know, we've sponsored [09:19] like words word set woo sesh uh in the [09:22] past. Um, obviously we sponsor do the [09:25] woo so like we we love to see events and [09:29] activity in the community. Um, but [09:32] putting on Woo Comp is, you know, it's [09:34] kind of a big deal. Uh and so when we [09:37] anything like that, it's the same as [09:39] anything else we might do. We have to [09:40] look at how much are we going to spend [09:42] on it, how much time are we going to put [09:43] into it. Um you know, how much of a [09:45] benefit is it actually going to be and [09:47] for whom? Uh and so we're we're very [09:50] much looking at that. Um, I'm I never [09:53] got to go to a Woo Comf uh previously. [09:56] And so, selfishly, I just want to put [09:58] one on because I want to go uh because I [10:00] think it would be really fun to go spend [10:02] time with folks who are deep in the Woo [10:04] community. Um, you know, people who are [10:06] building in the community. We have a lot [10:07] of partners who really want an event. [10:09] They want to get in touch. They want to [10:11] spend time with people who are building [10:13] with Woo or using Woo. Um, so I'm a big [10:16] fan of the idea uh and would love to do [10:18] it. Um, but uh no promises just yet [10:22] unfortunately, but we'll see. [10:24] >> Intriguing. [10:25] >> It does. Yeah, it does feel like [10:27] something that would help to not put but [10:29] keep Woo on the map and keep because it [10:32] is such a widely used plugin. It [10:34] definitely justifies something like its [10:36] own official event. Although I do [10:38] understand there's an opportunity cost [10:40] and it's a huge amount of work to put on [10:42] something like this. [10:43] >> Yeah. Yeah. And I think we've also [10:45] gotten used to uh I I see mention of of [10:48] like word camps. You know, word camps [10:50] are incredible events that are really [10:52] only possible because there's so many [10:55] volunteers involved in running it. Um [10:57] and then running like the coordinating [11:00] all of the contributions of the [11:01] volunteers who are part of it is a is a [11:04] huge job in and of itself. Um and so [11:07] yeah, we just have to make sure that if [11:09] we however it is that we go about doing [11:11] it, if we want to do a pretty large [11:14] scale event, it would most likely be um [11:17] that we're able to actually do it at a [11:19] level that, you know, shows up in the [11:22] way that we want to show up and is at [11:23] the the level of experience and quality. [11:25] We have great speakers and good food and [11:27] a good venue. All of those things um so [11:31] take time and money. So, we want to make [11:34] sure we do it right if we're going to [11:35] bring it back and that we do it [11:36] hopefully in a way that's sustainable. [11:38] You know, that it's not just we do it [11:39] once and then we say, "Well, that didn't [11:41] work out. We don't do it again." [11:43] >> Um, but that, you know, if we I would [11:45] love for it to come back and be a thing [11:47] that we do every year. [11:50] >> Dave, uh, in the comments has said, [11:53] "What about like a a Woo Commerce day, [11:56] uh, sort of bolted onto word camps?" [11:59] >> Yeah, that could be quite a nice [12:00] approach. Yeah, it's an interesting one. [12:02] Um, [12:05] WooCommerce is obviously technically [12:06] quite separate from WordPress as like an [12:10] official project and a foundation and [12:12] everything. Um, so I I think Matt was uh [12:15] talking last time about how the scale of [12:17] Woo Commerce maybe sort of tips that [12:19] balance a little bit. Um, so that could [12:21] be an option that would be interesting. [12:22] Um, we're definitely interested in [12:25] something that can uh not stand alone, [12:28] but we know that there are a lot of [12:30] people who are very interested in Woo [12:32] who aren't maybe as deep in the [12:34] WordPress uh ecosystem. And so there is [12:37] a bit of a, you know, do you do you [12:39] bring them into the WordPress ecosystem [12:42] first and then or very directly [12:44] alongside Woo or do you just embrace, [12:47] hey, this is merchants and commerce and [12:50] it's actually like kind of a different [12:51] audience in some cases. [12:53] >> Well, that kind of achieves both. If you [12:55] have it as an additional day adjacent to [12:58] a word camp, you've got the venue and [13:00] everything, so you've got a lot of [13:01] economies of scale to make it easier and [13:04] cheaper. And some people would go to the [13:06] word camp as well. Um the group you're [13:09] talking about thus e-commerce first may [13:11] or may not that's okay. Maybe tickets [13:14] would be separate or something like [13:15] that. But then that might bring a lot [13:17] more people. If you think about Word [13:19] Camp US, if it was an additional day, [13:22] then a lot of people that wouldn't [13:23] otherwise go to um Woo Comp or whatever [13:26] we're calling it, they might go and it [13:29] would get more people into Woo Commerce. [13:30] So I do like that idea. [13:32] >> Yeah. Yeah, it's a good one. Thanks, [13:34] Dave. [13:34] >> I I'm not sure that uh Word Camp would [13:37] allow it um because they don't want to [13:40] see they they don't want to be seen like [13:42] pushing one specific product, but [13:44] potentially as like I often see like [13:47] side events that happen um you know [13:50] nearby. They're not officially [13:52] associated, but they're like in the same [13:54] place. You've got the same people that [13:55] are already there. um and access to I [13:58] guess like some of the same uh speakers [14:01] that that might be able to do but then [14:04] you don't want to take away from word [14:05] camp um and like when do you do it so I [14:09] yeah I I think it's complicated I don't [14:10] think word camp would allow it [14:12] >> but that's just my [14:13] >> side event is a fair point because you [14:15] can organize what you want [14:16] >> but it is all automatic ultimately I [14:19] know word camps are independent but you [14:21] know what I mean [14:22] >> yeah yeah and I think that is an [14:24] important point though is that [14:25] especially word camps like they are [14:27] organized by uh a group primarily of [14:31] volunteers. Um they're they're not a [14:34] strictly automatic event. And so um [14:37] James's point of not wanting to muddy [14:40] that um is is excuse me [clears throat] [14:44] very valid. [14:47] >> So moving on um Simon has just turned [14:50] up. Oh, sorry I just clicked on the [14:52] wrong comment. There we go. Um, so [14:54] Simon, we are featuring the point that [14:56] you raised, so you're going to want to [14:58] go back and watch the recording later [15:00] and we're going to move on to your next [15:02] point next, which is that um, in the [15:05] Matt Mullen interview um, he was asked, [15:08] "Woomer serves merchants, product [15:10] builders, and agencies. Are their goals [15:13] aligned to those se segments and how are [15:15] they they prioritized?" And Matt [15:18] explained that there are goals tied to [15:20] each one, but he wasn't specific about [15:23] how they are prioritized. So Simon wrote [15:26] in his newsletter, I would love to hear [15:28] more on this. As a freelancer, I've been [15:31] rejected from the agency program in the [15:33] past and that hurt a little bit, but I [15:35] would love to know what are the goals [15:38] for each segment and how are those goals [15:41] being achieved? [15:44] >> Good question. Uh so I guess I won't [15:47] speak to like specific numeric goals um [15:50] as far as how they're uh prioritized. We [15:54] actually have different or sort of [15:56] suborganizations within automatic who [15:58] tend to focus on different parts of that [16:01] equation. Um, so for for example, we [16:03] have the A4A program. Um, automatic, [16:07] I always mix it up, not agencies for [16:09] automatic, it's automatic for agencies. [16:11] Um, and they focus exclusively on agency [16:14] programs. Um, so they're not necessarily [16:17] building product. Um, they're more [16:20] looking at, you know, incentive [16:21] structures and, um, I guess they are [16:25] actually building products to allow [16:27] agencies to manage websites and that [16:29] sort of thing. um but their focus is [16:31] exclusively on the agency side of [16:33] things. Um within our core uh [16:37] WooCommerce product group, that's where [16:40] things are a little muddier. Um and we [16:42] really are always prioritizing [16:45] um kind of some combination of [16:48] merchants, builders, and uh builders [16:50] sort of in general, like people who put [16:52] together Woo Commerce sites um and [16:55] agencies. [16:57] And and there's also uh one that we [17:00] often we like the collective community [17:02] often forgets to talk about really [17:04] important stakeholder is shoppers who we [17:06] refer to as shoppers like the customer [17:08] of the merchant. Um so looking at what [17:10] is that experience and what are we doing [17:13] to enable a really good experience there [17:15] is is the other important group that's [17:17] like one of the the top levels of [17:20] everything that we care about. Um, [17:24] again, I'd say from a priority [17:26] perspective, it really is a mix. Um, we [17:29] know that, for example, merchants won't [17:32] use Woo Commerce if they're not able to [17:34] make a good shopper experience. Um, and [17:37] developers or agencies uh won't use Woo [17:40] Commerce if they can't customize it and [17:42] build with it in a way that creates what [17:45] their merchants are looking for, which [17:47] ultimately is what their shoppers are [17:48] looking for. Um, so there's we go back [17:51] and forth uh over time and at different [17:54] times we sort of see that there's need [17:56] for more focus on different parts of the [17:58] experience, but there's pretty much [18:00] always something going on for all of [18:03] those different uh groups. So I know [18:06] that's not like maybe a specific answer [18:09] um that Simon's looking for, but I don't [18:11] know that there really is a super [18:13] specific one. [18:15] Yeah, I think one of the answer then [18:17] >> yeah, one of the things that we do is um [18:20] we work pretty closely with like a [18:22] number of different sized merchants as [18:24] well. Um and we'll you know iterate on [18:28] things with with with them and the goal [18:31] is to always try and improve the core [18:33] product uh you know so it's so it's [18:37] always improving based on what these [18:39] merchants actually need. Um, and I I I [18:42] think working with like the different [18:45] types of merchants and the different [18:47] sizes of merchants, uh, really helps to [18:49] get like a full view of what these [18:52] different people need. Um, [18:55] and yeah, we we also work quite closely [18:57] with some agencies and developers. Um, [19:00] you know, specifically Kestrel WP we've [19:02] worked pretty closely with uh on the [19:04] fulfillment stuff that that we've done. [19:07] Um, I'm always like out in the wild [19:10] listening to agencies and developers [19:12] about, you know, what what their needs [19:14] are. Uh, and we we try and bring that [19:16] back uh to the product as much as [19:19] possible. Um, so really it it's just a [19:22] case of like a lot of listening and [19:24] iterating and improving based on on what [19:27] we hear. Um, but yeah, as as Bose says, [19:29] we we [19:32] kind of focus on all of these different [19:34] segments. Like even within just the [19:36] merchant segment, there's so many [19:38] different types of merchants, uh, [19:40] different sizes of merchants. Like, you [19:42] know, a small merchant uh, who's just [19:44] selling a couple of products doesn't [19:47] need the same features that a massive [19:49] merchant selling thousands of products [19:51] needs. Um, so there's definitely like a [19:54] challenge there to to figure out what [19:56] the core product should offer that kind [19:59] of caters to both of these things. [20:01] >> Um, but yeah, it's something that we [20:04] always consider in a lot of the things [20:06] we do. Um, it's something we consider [20:08] with the the more core work that we were [20:10] doing uh and that we still are doing. Um [20:15] and yeah, it's uh it's an ongoing [20:17] process [20:19] >> and there has been a noticeable [20:21] improvement in that in the last two or [20:23] so years um where we are much more [20:25] active in going out and getting that [20:27] feedback and so on. [20:29] >> Let's move on to another part of the [20:32] Mulleng interview which Simon followed [20:34] up on which is the UCP side of things [20:37] and how will commerce move forward with [20:39] this. Now, Matt explained that [20:41] everything will be supported uh AI wise [20:44] and that Shopify are very good at [20:46] getting exclusive day of launch [20:48] announcements, but Woo Commerce won't be [20:50] left behind. Matt also mentioned that [20:52] surprisingly few people actually use [20:54] features like this and that in almost a [20:57] year there have been almost no [20:58] transactions. [21:00] And Simon's followup on that was, I [21:02] would love to know where Matt get this [21:04] gets this transaction data from, but [21:07] it's encouraging to hear that Woo [21:08] Commerce will support UCP. Yeah, I don't [21:11] know. Was Matt quoting specific [21:14] transaction data or talking more [21:15] generally about the fact that people [21:17] don't use this stuff much? [21:19] >> Yeah, I can speak to that one a little [21:20] bit. Uh, so there's a mix of both there. [21:24] So uh for example if people are using [21:26] Woo payments um we have pretty good [21:28] visibility of understanding what sort of [21:30] transactions are happening there um and [21:33] uh and where are they coming from um but [21:35] I think he was speaking a little more [21:37] generally from the perspective of like a [21:39] lot of these things have been announced [21:41] um but if you dig into them they're not [21:43] actually live and so or or they're live [21:46] only for very select groups or you know [21:48] very specific u partners with very [21:51] specific merchants. So you can think of [21:53] them basically as beta in a lot of cases [21:56] like a like a closed beta type release. [21:58] Um so they're really not like a a [22:01] broadly adopted technology yet. Um that [22:05] being said you know things are moving [22:06] very quickly. Um, and you know, we are [22:10] working with all of these folks, the the [22:12] Googles and the Open AIs and the [22:14] Stripes, etc. of the world. Um, to make [22:17] sure that we support them all and make [22:19] sure that we do it as much as possible [22:21] in a way that actually works with our [22:23] platform, which is pretty unique. Um, [22:26] you know, it's open. There are many [22:28] different payment types. There are all [22:30] sorts of different checkout flows and [22:32] whatever different concepts that need to [22:34] be supported that aren't necessarily [22:36] supported in more closed and narrowly [22:39] targeted platforms. Um so for example I [22:42] think uh Etsy was uh one of the launch [22:45] partners for ACP from memory. Um you [22:47] know they have a very specific control [22:49] environment. They sell certain things in [22:51] a certain way. uh frankly it's a lot [22:53] easier to build a new protocol or a new [22:56] especially in the payment space which is [22:58] very complex. Um you know they control [23:01] everything about that. So it's much [23:02] easier for them to collaborate and [23:05] design a new protocol and then ship it. [23:07] Um to do it on a an open flexible [23:10] platform like ours is way more [23:12] complicated. Um which is not to say that [23:14] it's not happening but it just takes [23:17] actually a bit more work to get it done. [23:19] Um so it's coming. Uh I will say on the [23:22] on the data side um other than Woo [23:24] payments we also have uh folks who opt [23:27] into sharing data with Woo Commerce um [23:30] or through Woo Commerce with automatic [23:32] technically um and so actually through [23:35] that we see a decent number of sort of [23:38] referred sales. I think Matt talked [23:40] about this as well. Um, so not [23:42] necessarily like a fully agentic [23:44] purchase where an automated AI is just [23:47] off making purchases on its own. U but [23:50] something where a user is engaging with [23:52] an AI probably conversational interface. [23:55] It's recommending a product and then [23:57] they go per the the person the you the [23:59] human goes and makes that purchase on [24:03] the website themsself. Uh so you can [24:05] think of that as like a referral as if [24:07] it was an ad or something else. uh we're [24:10] seeing a lot of that uh so we do see [24:12] data that supports that that is [24:14] happening a lot but technically that is [24:16] actually just uh a matter of the the LLM [24:19] in ingesting the catalog doesn't [24:22] actually require what people refer to as [24:24] agentic commerce um any sort of actual [24:27] like automated transaction process so [24:30] little bit different we are definitely [24:31] seeing a lot of that um and it's [24:33] continuing to grow so we're working [24:36] again working with these partners on how [24:38] can we help merch merchants get their [24:40] cataloges uh as fresh as possible into [24:43] these LLMs because that's a really [24:45] important part of that equation. Um you [24:47] know getting the latest product [24:49] information, the latest pricing, if [24:51] there's any deals going on. U so [24:53] figuring out how to basically bring that [24:56] data over live and real time um is also [25:00] something that's uh not actually defined [25:03] yet. There's not a standard mechanism [25:05] for doing that. um and is a little more [25:07] complex in our environment because we [25:09] have uh unstructured data, every type of [25:12] product you could imagine, people who [25:14] configure their site in all sorts of [25:16] different ways. Um so again, working [25:19] working with those partners to figure [25:20] out how we can do that best um to give [25:23] them the data that they need and give [25:25] merchants the sales that they're looking [25:27] for. [25:29] >> Yeah. Yeah. That kind of fits with how [25:31] I'm observing it as well. People are [25:33] being recommended products. There's not [25:35] much shopping going on yet, but it's [25:37] interesting to see where it'll go. Um, [25:39] just sometimes the media suggests it's [25:41] all happening now when really, as you [25:44] say, it's really in beta. [25:45] >> Yeah. [25:47] >> While we are on AI, we've got a question [25:49] also from Simon submitted via X, which [25:53] is, "Does Woo have any plans for how to [25:55] capture the 4% merchant fee for Agentic [25:58] Commerce?" [26:00] Yeah, James, I think you were following [26:02] up with our team internally and you had [26:03] a good answer for this one, right? [26:05] >> Yeah. So, we we've got um basically a [26:09] team of people that are digging pretty [26:11] deep into both ACP and UCP. So, ACP is [26:15] the the protocol that Stripe announced [26:16] and UCP is the protocol that Google [26:18] announced. Uh pretty similar, I guess, [26:21] in the way that you know that they work. [26:24] Um so, we're digging into both of them. [26:26] Um [26:28] the the 4% fee is [26:31] my understanding is it is something that [26:34] we would probably integrate with our our [26:37] own payment plugins to begin with. Um [26:40] where the kind of underlying structure [26:43] of what that looks like is extendable. [26:45] So uh other payment plugins would be the [26:48] ones that would also need to integrate [26:49] that um into their products uh using [26:53] what they call shared payment tokens. [26:56] Um, so yeah, it's all very technical, [26:58] but what I would say is that like with a [27:01] lot of the things we're doing, we plan [27:02] to build sort of the foundation that can [27:05] be extended and utilized by these other [27:08] systems. Um, so we don't know exactly [27:10] what that looks like right now, but it [27:11] is what the the team is working pretty, [27:15] you know, heavily on at the moment. Um, [27:18] and there's there's so much stuff that [27:21] they can do with all of this and that [27:22] they're looking at. Um, and it's quite [27:25] exciting actually. I'm I'm looking [27:27] forward to seeing what this sayic [27:29] commerce world looks like. [27:33] >> Yeah, [27:34] >> definitely. The final point that Simon [27:38] raised is about Woo Express. Uh Matt [27:41] Mullenweg was asked any plans to bring [27:43] back Woo Express and Matt explained that [27:46] a separate service like Woo Express is [27:48] no longer needed due to improvements at [27:50] WordPress.com which mean that every play [27:53] paid plan now supports themes and [27:55] plugins and have full scalability and [27:58] performance. However, Matt accepted that [28:00] onboarding could still be improved for [28:03] new merchants. Simon's response was I [28:06] disagree with Matt here. To remain [28:08] competitive, I think Woo should [28:09] reconsider a hosted decoupled version of [28:12] Woo Commerce after the failed Woo [28:14] Express attempt. [28:17] >> Um I I know Simon's here. Uh I'd love to [28:20] hear what he means by decoupled in that [28:22] uh response if he's able to drop it in [28:25] the chat. Um I guess I'll speak to the [28:28] other pieces. I think what Matt was [28:30] getting at with the onboarding is that [28:32] if I combine that with the idea of [28:34] hosted um I think there's this there's [28:38] this world where WooCommerce is too [28:41] complicated. [28:42] If you are starting from absolute zero [28:45] and have no knowledge of uh WordPress or [28:49] hosting or managing plug like all of [28:52] these things, right? And so I think [28:55] there the point of there being when I [28:58] when I hear hosted I [clears throat] [28:59] hear of like a hosted environment. So [29:02] you don't you're not really thinking [29:04] about hosting. So more of a [29:05] wordpress.com style thing where you just [29:07] go and you sign up and there's a [29:08] WordPress there for you. Um but there [29:11] should be a WooCommerce installed with [29:12] it as well. Um, and then if you [29:15] streamline that whole onboarding [29:17] process, uh, so that you're really not [29:19] having to think too much about domains [29:22] and a hosting account versus a WordPress [29:25] account versus a different any of the [29:28] any other accounts. Um, [clears throat] [29:30] if you can combine all of that, uh, and [29:33] the onboarding actually helps you with [29:35] the sort of selection and configuration [29:38] of whatever plugins and things you need [29:40] to actually make a full WooCommerce [29:41] site. Um, I agree. I think that's [29:45] actually something that's missing for uh [29:48] for sort of DIY merchants in particular. [29:51] Excuse me one sec. [29:54] >> Yeah. And we'll be talking a bit later [29:56] about the admin experience and which I [29:58] think fits into this a bit as well in [30:01] terms of making it really easy for [30:02] people. But first um actually that's the [30:06] next section. So that works well. [30:08] >> Good timing. In terms of the admin, um, [30:10] these are questions which people [30:12] presubmitted to the Matt Mullenweg [30:14] interview, but we decided one better [30:16] place for the two of you to answer [30:18] instead. The first one is from Dave [30:20] Loot, who is watching live, which is [30:24] that Woo Commerce is used by serious [30:26] businesses, but the back-end experience [30:30] feels messy because of notices, banners, [30:32] upsells, and scattered settings. What [30:35] would it take for Woo to feel enterprise [30:37] level professional in the WordPress [30:39] admin which includes the design system, [30:42] the guidelines, enforcement or something [30:44] else? [30:46] >> Yeah, it's a great question Dave. Uh we [30:48] think about this one a lot. Uh we [30:50] definitely see uh as James was [30:53] mentioning working with specific uh [30:55] merchants um many of which are quite [30:57] large. Uh we we see this as well. you [31:00] know, we see the sort of experience that [31:02] some folks end up with in WP admin. Um, [31:05] and I'll say ultimately that it is sort [31:09] of the uh the blessing and the curse of [31:11] how open and flexible things are, right? [31:14] And so every single different vendor, we [31:18] refer to them usually as vendors, like [31:19] person who makes a plug-in um is [31:23] partially responsible for this. uh and [31:25] so everyone who sticks another uh admin [31:29] notice or another banner or whatever on [31:31] the screen is contributing to this [31:32] problem. Um but ultimately I think it's [31:35] actually uh kind of a a platform or a [31:38] framework level issue. Um and so it's a [31:41] either a WordPress or a WooCommerce uh [31:44] pro problem to solve to some extent at [31:47] least. Um which would mean like to [31:50] actually provide better ways of doing [31:52] these things, right? Like the admin [31:54] notice hook is used by everyone because [31:56] it's easy. That's what all the examples [31:58] show. You can you can put one together [32:01] in I can go ask an LLM to put one [32:04] together for me now and it'll be done in [32:06] 2 seconds. Um so people use that, right? [32:09] Uh I think if if either at the WordPress [32:12] layer or the WooCommerce layer, if there [32:14] was a better easy to use API for how to [32:18] handle the concept of like a a glo [32:20] global notice or whatever um that they [32:22] would do that. I know there is there was [32:25] a notifications project in the in the [32:27] WordPress core uh project. I don't know [32:31] what happened to that. Um I don't think [32:33] it is proceeding or or it seems [32:36] >> the drafts look good. It was about [32:38] having one banner which would kind of I [32:40] don't know if it's a slider or something [32:42] but it would have everything in one [32:43] banner. Imagine that. [32:45] >> I know. It would be lovely. So, I mean I [32:48] I'll be honest like since that hasn't [32:50] moved forward very well at the WordPress [32:52] layer, we're looking at can we do [32:53] something at the Woo Commerce layer. Um [32:56] what's challenging though is whatever we [32:58] do at the Woo Commerce layer, uh [33:01] typically most Woo Commerce sites are [33:03] running a lot of WordPress plugins as [33:05] well. they're not just strictly Woo [33:07] Commerce things. Um, and so even if we [33:11] quote unquote solve that problem for Woo [33:13] Commerce, it doesn't necessarily solve [33:15] it for the entire experience that a [33:17] merchant is having. Um, so that is a [33:21] that is a tricky one. That's where I say [33:23] uh I think working with the WordPress [33:25] community on how to address that is [33:27] pretty important. Um, and part of that [33:30] is you mentioned actually the design [33:32] system. Um so the work that's going on [33:35] sort of coming out of the Gutenberg [33:37] project and driving the WordPress design [33:40] system um is really doing some great [33:44] work. Uh so I I see like a lot of the [33:47] early work on uh I forget I guess it's [33:51] called the admin redesign for WordPress [33:54] um really start setting some uh some [33:58] much better like just visual guidance [34:01] like uh components that are reusable. I [34:04] don't think they've solved the uh the [34:06] notifications [clears throat] [34:08] notifications or banners question just [34:10] yet. Uh but there's some really good [34:12] work that's happening there that uh [34:14] points to a very bright future. Um but [34:17] it will it you know frankly it requires [34:21] every plug-in developer to to play a [34:24] part in that. Um because it with the [34:28] flexibility that everyone has in WP [34:31] admin to to add you know admin notices [34:34] or hook into every page or whatever. um [34:37] when people abuse that it's our shared [34:40] users who end up suffering. Um so [34:45] >> yeah I will add to that as well that um [34:50] we are aware that there's like a lot of [34:52] UI that could be improved um you know [34:56] throughout the product of Woo Commerce. [34:59] Um but one of the things that is very [35:02] challenging for us which we kind of [35:04] experienced with the product editor uh [35:06] previously is when we roll this stuff [35:10] out we also have to consider like [35:11] backwards compatibility and how uh [35:14] plugins can integrate with these new UIs [35:17] and um you know rolling out a full [35:22] redesign of like everything is not [35:25] necessarily viable in some ways. [35:29] um in terms of like how the community [35:31] can extend it and and integrate with it [35:34] based on what they already have. Um so [35:37] there's a lot of consideration that we [35:39] need to take around that and and what [35:41] that looks like. And also [35:44] something I would like to hear from the [35:45] community is like um from the from the [35:48] plug-in developer community specifically [35:51] is [35:53] uh what approach could we take that [35:55] would best suit them like [35:58] um you know how could we roll out UI [36:02] updates uh in the best way for them that [36:06] they can you know integrate with them [36:08] without being like overwhelmed by okay [36:10] you know I have to completely rewrite my [36:12] whole product now cuz everything's [36:14] changed. Um, I think that's going to be [36:17] one of the the biggest challenges for [36:19] any sort of UI improvements we make. Uh, [36:22] and maybe, you know, as Wuk as WordPress [36:25] rolls out its new admin experience um, [36:28] when that happens [36:31] that that kind of process of updating to [36:34] the new way of doing things will happen [36:36] naturally. Anyway, [36:38] um but yeah, I would love to hear from [36:40] the community on like on that front [36:43] ideas around [36:45] uh what that sort of rollout process [36:47] might look like. [36:50] >> Yeah. What people need is a clear design [36:54] library and as you say this is WordPress [36:56] as much as Woo Commerce which needs to [36:58] include all the possible UI elements [37:01] including maybe things that aren't even [37:03] in core like I don't know maybe core [37:05] doesn't have radio buttons or something [37:07] those sorts of things so that people can [37:09] do it in a consistent way and also time [37:12] scales are really important because [37:14] there's been a bit of boy who cried wolf [37:16] in which things maybe have been [37:18] consulted on and then not happened and [37:20] we might have done some development work [37:22] to integrate with something that then [37:24] never gets implemented. So we don't want [37:26] to know too early in the sense of it's [37:29] time for you to start building for it. [37:31] We want to know it's definite. [37:33] >> Yeah. Yeah. I think that's all spot on. [37:35] especially the the design system as I [37:37] said there's there's a lot of of work [37:39] happening in that space uh for WordPress [37:42] and we're we're working really closely [37:44] to make sure that the WordPress design [37:47] system includes at least as you were [37:49] saying Katie all of the sort of visual [37:51] elements and different components that [37:53] are needed for Woo Commerce um where Woo [37:56] Commerce is already sort of a uh you can [37:58] think of it as like a superset of what's [38:00] required for WordPress WordPress has a [38:02] certain set of form elements and cards [38:05] and accordians and whatever that it [38:08] needs. Um, and then Woo Commerce because [38:09] it tends to deal with more complex data, [38:12] a lot of structured stuff, financial [38:14] information comes with extra needs. So, [38:16] we need currency fields and more [38:19] complicated date pickers and other [38:21] things like that. So, we're making sure [38:22] that all of that is is handled and [38:25] available. Um, and then yeah, I think to [38:27] some extent we we'll keep learning, [38:29] right? We'll keep finding new components [38:31] that aren't there yet and they'll need [38:33] to be added. Um but uh I think that work [38:36] is really positive and I think is uh [38:39] frankly like way overdue in the [38:41] WordPress ecosystem. Um like I I started [38:45] developing in the WordPress space in [38:48] 2004 I think. Um and was like a little [38:52] surprised back then that there wasn't a [38:54] consistent way of creating a form [38:56] element like an input text box or [38:58] something. uh and there's still not you [39:00] know there's sort of de facto standards [39:03] but there's not like a required official [39:05] way of doing it. So Woo Commerce is [39:07] actually a little bit further ahead in [39:09] some of that interestingly. So things [39:11] like our settings API already have a [39:13] structured approach to doing most things [39:15] which most developers use. Um but it's [39:18] obviously not constrained. You don't [39:20] have to use it. So, uh, that flexibility [39:23] again introduces a little bit of extra [39:26] complexity when you try and sort of [39:28] upgrade all of these things. [39:31] >> Yeah, I think we're all looking forward [39:32] to all these things coming to fruition. [39:36] While we're on the admin, let's move on [39:38] to the suggestion that a lot of people [39:41] have made about Woo Commerce becoming a [39:44] bit more arrogant in the admin. Um, like [39:47] maybe an e-commerce mode or something. [39:50] For example, Jake Hawks had a question. [39:53] What will it take to employ a highly [39:55] performant main menu that is laser [39:57] focused for active merchants and move [40:00] the prompts, promos, and general [40:01] distractions to appropriate locations? [40:04] And that's just one variant of lots of [40:06] things that I've seen people saying that [40:08] they want you to log into the admin and [40:09] it's all about your online shop. [40:12] >> Yeah. Yeah. Um, great question. Hot [40:15] topic. Uh, James and I talk about this a [40:17] lot. I like to think of it less as [40:20] arrogance and more as maybe like a a [40:22] gangly teenager coming of age [40:26] and it feels like that's like we're [40:28] we're kind of overdue for that. um in my [40:30] opinion I so I think you know we James [40:33] mentioned we work closely with a lot of [40:34] merchants um we work closely with a lot [40:37] of agencies and we are hearing more more [40:40] now than ever that WooCommerce users the [40:45] actual merchants they identify as Woo [40:47] Commerce users not as WordPress users or [40:51] their their mental model the thing that [40:52] they are laser focused on is Woo [40:54] Commerce um and and that's a sort of [40:56] shorthand way of saying they care about [40:58] their business. They're not necessarily [41:00] there to think about like what is [41:03] WordPress's posts and pages structure [41:06] and uh you know how do I navigate [41:08] between what are these top level [41:10] settings and why are none of them [41:11] related to commerce. They care about [41:13] their orders. They care about their [41:14] products. They care about like the the [41:17] data that helps them run their business. [41:19] Um so uh if you follow GitHub, you know [41:22] James actually has an open PR to move [41:24] the orders menu item to the top level. [41:27] Um he had a a a X post out recently [41:32] asking for feedback about potential [41:34] changes to the settings menu. Um we're [41:36] very much looking at at how we can do [41:38] this and if if it makes sense to do sort [41:41] of a full switch to a [41:45] coming of age mode or arrogant mode, [41:47] whatever you call it, commerce mode. Um [41:50] we we actually do think about that as [41:52] you know the default WordPress [41:53] experience is very uh content ccentric [41:56] and then WooCommerce kind of adds this [41:58] commerce experience to it. Um and so the [42:02] sort of simple reverso way of looking at [42:05] that is well what would a what would a [42:07] commerce centric experience look like [42:08] with content uh sort of added onto that? [42:12] Um, WordPress technically gives us the [42:15] flexibility to do that with the admin [42:17] menu structure. Like we could filter and [42:20] change the the menu structure to match a [42:22] commercecentric experience. But again, [42:25] it does get complicated with all the [42:27] other plugins in the ecosystem u because [42:30] they expect to hook in at a certain [42:32] place or they expect a certain menu item [42:34] to exist and if it doesn't then we don't [42:37] want to break things, right? Uh, so [42:39] probably if I was to guess, um, given [42:43] what we're looking at, I would guess [42:44] that we end up with some sort of option. [42:47] Um, as much as I would love to be able [42:49] to just make this a thing one way or the [42:51] other, um, I think the reality is that [42:54] we have a split between people who [42:56] really are commerce ccentric and people [42:58] who are uh, I don't know, sort of a [43:01] blended commerce and content experience. [43:04] uh and so they actually they enjoy or [43:07] they they like this sort of fully [43:09] integrated uh fully [43:12] I don't know uh not aligned I don't know [43:16] what the word I'm looking for there is [43:17] but but having everything [43:19] >> yeah as is versus just focusing on [43:23] commerce. So you know maybe it's like a [43:25] a full commerce mode or something like [43:28] that. Um, and for for brand new stores [43:31] that are going through the onboarding [43:32] experience and everything, we'd probably [43:34] default to it even and say, you know, [43:36] hey, if you're setting up a store, this [43:39] is probably what you want. Um, if for [43:43] some reason you don't or it doesn't work [43:45] with some plugin you're using or maybe [43:47] you're a developer and you you're very [43:48] very familiar with the existing [43:50] structure and you don't want to change [43:51] yet, um, then, you know, toggle this [43:53] thing and it'll flip back to the old [43:55] menu style. [43:56] So, I think we can figure that one out. [43:58] Um, I'd love to hear feedback from folks [44:01] on um sort of what they where or how [44:06] they would think that might cause [44:07] problems. Uh, we hear a lot of support [44:10] for it like in the abstract. Um, as a [44:13] lot of things, frankly, we hear a lot of [44:15] ideas. We hear a lot of folks say, you [44:17] know, we should do X. Um, and the main [44:20] reason that we don't is that it's always [44:22] harder than it sounds. there's always [44:24] some reason that it's difficult in the [44:27] sort of flexible ecosystem, whatever. [44:29] Um, and so figuring if we can figure [44:31] those things out, we'll do them if [44:33] they're the best thing for the merchants [44:35] and best thing for the users. [44:36] Absolutely. [44:38] >> Yeah. [44:38] >> Yeah. I think something [laughter] could [44:39] consider as well is to uh is to tie that [44:44] commerce mode to like a user role. [44:47] >> So maybe you know you can enable it for [44:50] store managers. So when store managers [44:51] log in, they see this commerce mode [44:53] because there's already some level of [44:55] customization that they get anyway. Um [44:58] but yeah, just to touch on the moving [45:00] the orders top level, um like you say, [45:04] it's always a lot harder than it sounds. [45:06] There's um the the way that WordPress [45:09] works is that wherever you put a menu [45:11] item, the page that renders once you [45:14] click that has like a unique ID and that [45:16] ID is what plugins use to extend or like [45:19] add to those pages. Um so moving orders [45:22] just one level up completely changes [45:25] that ID. So, we had to do a lot of work [45:27] uh to kind of maintain the original ID. [45:31] And I think [45:33] shifting the menu items anywhere else is [45:37] going to have the same issue. And maybe [45:39] it's something maybe it's like a [45:41] JavaScript level thing that they're [45:42] actually just it's like a faux menu and [45:45] it just redirects to the original page. [45:47] Um but there's considerations like that [45:49] that that make it a lot more challenging [45:52] than you might imagine. Like there's [45:55] there's plugins you can get that [45:57] customize the menu. Uh and I believe [45:59] they all work in like a JavaScript way. [46:01] So they just um they just insert the [46:04] menu with JavaScript and it just [46:06] redirects to the the page. Uh which [46:08] actually works really well, but it does [46:10] require that you're, you know, [46:13] successfully running JavaScript and [46:14] there's no like conflicts there. Um and [46:17] it feels a little bit hacky, but uh [46:21] yeah, it's it's a way to do it. Um, but [46:23] yeah, I I really like the idea of a [46:25] commerce mode. Um, what that looks like, [46:28] I don't know. So, I'm I'm [46:30] more than happy to hear feedback on on [46:32] that and what people think that [46:34] experience should be like. [46:36] >> Um, Katie, I will say that Simon has [46:38] followed up with his uh response about [46:41] decoupled. [46:42] >> Let's move to that. [46:44] >> Yeah. [46:45] >> Um, so I'll just read it out word for [46:47] word. I haven't read it yet, so bear [46:49] with me. uh he has said so when he says [46:52] decoupled he means a version of [46:54] WooCommerce that is maintained [46:55] separately so the core remains the same [46:57] for everyone but perhaps automatic [46:59] develops its own modules and add-ons [47:01] that are exclusive to the version or [47:04] it's a forked modified version of core [47:06] that is obviously maintained by [47:08] automatic and is optimized for a [47:10] self-hosted and truly managed platform [47:13] similar to how Shopify works. Um, so [47:16] he's essentially saying like we're [47:17] running one version of Woo Commerce that [47:20] everyone uses. [47:22] Uh, in summary, um, so he's saying [47:25] Shopify is customizable, but there are [47:27] certain things you cannot do in it [47:29] because it is a controlled environment. [47:31] Something is needed from Woo that can [47:33] compete apples for apples with Shopify. [47:36] I think you can do that. It's just [47:37] whether Matt or Automatic or B. Uh, I [47:41] don't know whether this decision falls [47:43] on you. [47:45] want to do it. [laughter] [47:48] Um [snorts] [47:49] I don't know what that means at the end. [47:50] Uh I think [47:52] >> but yeah basically whether we want [47:54] >> dictating into AI or something. Um so I [47:57] think uh if I'm getting this this right [47:59] uh I think the sort of core of the [48:02] suggestion is the decoupled bit is [48:04] basically like we should maintain our [48:05] own fork of woocommerce which is [48:08] decoupled from the core version and that [48:11] we can you know make specific changes uh [48:14] in a more controlled environment in a [48:15] more hosted sort of environment. Um [48:19] got it. So I guess uh my immediate [48:22] response is um anything along the lines [48:26] of fully forking and maintaining a [48:28] separate version is a bit of a nightmare [48:32] [laughter] [48:33] uh from a purely technical perspective. [48:36] It's just like so much overhead and so [48:38] much extra work. Um and frankly like we [48:42] are not a big enough organization to do [48:44] that and for that to make a ton of [48:45] sense. Um, so I I personally wouldn't [48:49] advocate for like a full forked separate [48:53] totally separate thing. Um, but I think [48:55] in the spirit of what what he's saying, [48:58] uh, the idea of [49:00] like offering something that's not your [49:03] normal woo. So take take normal woo and [49:06] maybe like apply some extra restrictions [49:08] to it or build some custom stuff on top [49:10] of it. You know, maybe it's packaging [49:12] specific extensions or whatever. Uh I [49:15] think that's totally valid and that's [49:16] very much what I was saying earlier. Um [49:18] so you know if you if you start looking [49:20] at the full user journey and and where [49:23] does the complexity come in it starts [49:25] right at the beginning. It's it's [49:27] hosting and domains and getting [49:28] WordPress set up and getting WooCommerce [49:30] set up. So that's sort of just your like [49:33] get out of the gate type complexity. Um, [49:36] and I think that's actually pretty [49:37] solvable and a lot of hosts already [49:38] solving that in various ways, right? [49:40] Like they have pretty good pretty smooth [49:42] onboarding processes. Uh, they simplify [49:45] the idea of registering or transferring [49:47] a domain. Uh, they'll they'll auto [49:50] install WordPress for you. Uh, to Matt's [49:52] point, WordPress.com does a really good [49:54] job of all of this. Um, and then the [49:56] next layer I think is is more like what [49:58] Simon's talking about, which is more of [50:00] the um uh like how much flexibility do [50:04] you actually have in that WooCommerce [50:06] environment and what uh are there extra [50:09] things added in? Are there we'll just [50:11] keep calling them extensions since [50:12] that's the model. Um, are there extra [50:15] extensions installed? Are they [50:16] configured in a certain way? Uh, can you [50:20] install other things? Can you uh can you [50:23] break your site in any way or is it [50:25] actually sort of controlled in a way [50:26] that you can't break it? And that's [50:29] really interesting figuring out how to [50:30] do all of that. Um it's it's relatively [50:33] complicated to do uh especially in the [50:35] commerce space because every merchant, [50:38] every business is different. Uh so [50:41] everyone has different needs. So [50:42] figuring out what's that set of uh [50:45] functionality that everybody needs uh [50:47] that that allows them to run a fully [50:49] capable business um is is relatively [50:53] complicated to to offer a broadly [50:55] appealing service in that way. Um but I [50:58] think yeah totally agree uh I think [51:00] that's actually like um something that [51:04] is most likely in our future. [51:08] Yeah, I think it touches on um it's like [51:12] the opposite of the opening question [51:14] about uh open source and like having [51:16] that freedom and flexibility to [51:19] >> completely do what what you want with [51:21] it. And there are a subset of merchants [51:23] that don't want that. you know, they [51:25] just want to in uh they just want to [51:28] launch a site, a store that they can [51:30] sell their product on and they don't [51:33] it's they don't care as much as having [51:35] the flexibility to customize that and [51:38] >> um you know with functionality maybe [51:40] maybe they want to insert their brand [51:42] into it and and just have a nicel [51:44] looking professional website. Um [51:48] so yeah, I do think there's space to [51:49] like target that kind of user. Um, like [51:53] you say, it's a very complicated [51:55] challenge uh and one that requires a lot [51:58] of capacity. [52:01] >> Yeah. And interestingly, Shopify isn't [52:03] as good at that as people think it is. [52:06] Uh, Patrick Ran published a really [52:07] interesting article about how it's a lot [52:10] harder to particularly with so the apps [52:13] um marketplace. He found a lot of them [52:15] didn't work. It wasn't really just a [52:17] plugandplay thing like people think. So [52:19] that might be an opportunity for Woo [52:22] Commerce. [52:23] >> Yeah, definitely. [52:26] >> Let's move to a question from Ian [52:28] Meisner from Kestrel um who wants to [52:32] know where's the line between helpful [52:34] defaults and overly opinionated and how [52:37] do we know when we're touching that [52:39] line? [52:41] >> Good question, Ian. Also, shout out to [52:43] Ian. I believe he's got I forget if it's [52:45] a GitHub discussion or maybe it was just [52:47] a GitHub uh issue open about the whole [52:51] is it an issue okay about the whole [52:52] conversation we were just talking about [52:54] earlier with like a sort of commerce [52:55] opinionated mode of moving menu items [52:58] and whatnot um I don't remember the the [53:00] issue number off the top of my head but [53:02] uh there's some good discussion on there [53:03] as well uh so the question of smart [53:06] defaults versus overly opinionated um uh [53:10] frankly I think they're kind of I think [53:12] what he's getting at is [53:14] uh opinions or defaults or opinions that [53:17] are unchangeable. [53:18] Um or you know we've made a choice for [53:21] you. Let's let's use uh what's a good [53:23] example? I don't know. Let's say I'm [53:26] based in the US. So let's say we like [53:28] decide that you can only ship your [53:30] packages with USPS. [53:33] Um you you could argue that that's a [53:34] smart default in the US. Um and being [53:37] opinionated and saying everyone's going [53:39] to do that. Uh, but if you can't, if you [53:41] just literally cannot change that, um, [53:44] that feels like we've crossed a line and [53:45] it's not very useful. Uh, for example, [53:48] Katie, trying to ship something via USPS [53:50] for you, I imagine is not very possible. [53:53] Um, so I think that's that's to me it's [53:56] more a question of like defaults are [53:58] great and actually to James' point [54:00] earlier, we have a lot of merchants who [54:02] really want us to be more opinionated [54:04] with defaults. They want us to tell them [54:07] like this is the best way to run your [54:08] store given what we know about it. Um [54:11] but to still have the option to change [54:13] those defaults. So, you know, I think [54:15] when the word is default to me that [54:17] implies there's still another choice. Uh [54:20] and I think that's I actually think that [54:21] we can go very very far down that line [54:24] before it's a problem. Um again, as long [54:27] as you can still change it. Yeah. So, [54:29] you're a lot more of that frankly um [54:32] because we're very aware that that is [54:34] that is a problem right now for [54:36] merchants who are trying to set up their [54:38] own store is that we basic we we don't [54:41] really do a lot of defaulting. Um and we [54:44] should [54:46] >> I wonder what as well if Ian is touching [54:48] on uh not just setting the default [54:50] settings but also default functionality. [54:54] Um, so things like uh cost of goods like [54:57] being available and just there for [54:59] everyone versus something that you can [55:01] turn on or off. [55:03] >> Gotcha. Yeah, that's a good question [55:05] too. Um, and I think like that is [55:08] something that we also haven't done [55:10] enough of in the past. Um, and what I [55:13] mean by that is if you look back, say [55:16] call it five years in the WooCommerce [55:18] space, uh, we really just put out Woo [55:21] Commerce core and then there's thousands [55:24] of extensions and it's kind of just, you [55:27] know, core does the the very narrowest [55:29] things it could possibly do. Um, and [55:32] then go and install a bunch of [55:33] extensions. U, so really not very [55:36] opinionated, not really defaulting to [55:38] providing a lot of functionality. Um, [55:40] and kind of the same thing goes for what [55:42] I was talking about with settings. Um, [55:45] that the the sort of market expectation [55:49] has shifted on that and we get constant [55:52] feedback that people don't expect to [55:55] have to go get separate extensions to do [55:57] a lot of this stuff. They just expect it [55:59] to be in the platform. Um, and so yes, [56:02] it's always going to be a balancing act [56:05] and like a line that we have to walk of [56:07] of putting too much in there and it just [56:08] being wasted code that isn't necessary. [56:13] Um, so what I look at is I try and think [56:15] about uh what are the capabilities that [56:18] core needs to have. So what like a good [56:21] example of this is the shipment tracking [56:23] changes that we've been making. Um like [56:26] we had dozens of extensions in the [56:28] ecosystem that offered some form of [56:30] shipment tracking and they all did it [56:33] differently. Uh and so none of them were [56:36] interoperable. You couldn't rely on any [56:38] of the on like uh a piece of data being [56:40] stored in a specific space uh specific [56:43] part of the database. And so making that [56:46] core like a core capability means that [56:49] there's a consistent place that that [56:50] data is stored, a consistent way of [56:52] accessing it. And then the actual [56:54] functionality that exposes it, that's a [56:57] different question. Like should the core [56:59] WooCommerce experience visually expose [57:03] how to do shipment tracking? And we [57:05] decided yes, I think it absolutely [57:07] should. Um, but then there's another [57:10] layer to that like should it do live [57:13] updated API based, you know, exactly [57:15] where is my shipment on its way to [57:18] someone's house kind of thing. Um, [57:20] that's not core functionality as far as [57:22] we're concerned, but we've provided this [57:24] uh solid capability uh and a core UI [57:28] that gives you what you need to then [57:30] sort of build on that functionality [57:32] through some other service. Uh, so it's [57:35] always a balancing act. I think it's [57:36] it's a lot uh it's a lot more nuanced [57:39] than just do we do it or not. So like I [57:42] said I think the I think about these [57:43] like core capabilities then core [57:46] functionality then then there's like [57:48] layers of how much of that actual [57:51] feature you expose to customers um [57:54] versus leaving it open for extensions to [57:57] build it out where it makes sense. [58:00] >> Yeah, that makes sense. We have two more [58:03] questions. Uh, one is from Rulfo from [58:07] Business Bloomer and Checkout Summit who [58:10] wants to know, "What's the update [58:11] regarding the official Woo Fullsight [58:14] editing theme?" [58:16] >> Cool. James, I think you got a good [58:19] update on this one, right? [58:21] >> I did. Yeah. Um, so the plan is to [58:24] release it. Uh, it's it's actually [58:27] almost complete. [58:29] um a lot of work has gone into it and [58:33] also that work has reflected back into [58:36] core as well in terms of like the blocks [58:38] that we offer and how they can be used [58:40] within this theme. Um [58:44] I will say that it we're we're releasing [58:46] it in um [58:49] we want to get it out there so people [58:50] can use it. So, it may not be a fully [58:53] polished experience, but we want people [58:55] to use the theme, uh, experiment with [58:58] it, you know, customize it, uh, find [59:02] what's good, what's bad, what's missing, [59:04] and we'll just iterate on it from there. [59:06] But it's in a pretty good state. Um, and [59:09] I would say [59:12] at least within like the next month or [59:14] two, we should see that coming to the [59:16] the WordPress repository as as a theme [59:19] that you can download and use. Um, and [59:22] yeah, I I think it's about time we kind [59:25] of replace storefront. [59:27] >> Yes, please. [59:28] >> Um, so I'm looking forward to it. But [59:30] yeah, it it's on its way. We're uh we're [59:32] just doing a little bit of polish. Um, [59:35] and then we're going to get it out there [59:36] so that people can use it. uh and [59:39] feedback on it. And you know, I expect [59:41] there's going to be blocks and changes [59:43] that come from people using that that [59:46] trickle back into core uh and generally [59:49] like improve those blocks for any [59:51] fullsight editing theme. Um I think the [59:54] the ecosystem of like fullsight editing [59:56] themes is interesting because you're [59:59] you're not necessarily building a theme. [60:01] It's like sort of a placeholder for [60:03] blocks. Um, and I guess it's an [60:07] opinionated way to display those blogs. [60:09] So, uh, yeah, on its way. [60:13] >> Yeah. [60:13] >> Interesting. I didn't know that. Have [60:15] any designs for it being released yet? [60:19] >> Uh, I am not sure. I know we have a demo [60:23] site which is like the fully uh speced [60:26] out version of it. I'm not sure if that [60:29] uh is public yet. Um, but maybe I'll [60:33] I'll ask and maybe it's something I can [60:34] share. Um, [60:35] >> yeah, we're just redesigning all our [60:37] demos to c because we use storefront [60:40] which is a bit old. So, I'm just [60:41] thinking, oh, maybe we should stop this [60:43] project. [60:44] >> Yeah, maybe. [60:46] I'll say, yeah, one of the things I'm [60:47] really excited about with this theme, [60:49] um, is having a modern foundation for [60:52] things like demos. Um, and for, you [60:55] know, obviously Woo Commerce core comes [60:57] with a lot of templates and blocks and [61:02] to really understand it, you've got to [61:03] build pages, you got to build a cart and [61:04] a checkout, a shop page, all of those [61:06] things. Um, and so being able to demo [61:08] all of that in a consistent environment. [61:10] Uh, and being able to sort of use that [61:12] from our perspective as a bit of a [61:15] design target. Uh, and so like does all [61:18] of this stuff work together? Um, does it [61:21] look great? You know, do is there a [61:23] standard set of CSS that we should tell [61:26] theme developers that, you know, as long [61:28] as you do this stuff, it'll look good [61:29] across everything. Um, can we optimize [61:32] the performance of everything in a [61:34] specific environment? Can we make sure [61:36] that it's all mobile friendly? There's a [61:39] lot of things that are actually really [61:41] really hard to do when you're just [61:43] trying to target every possible theme in [61:45] the world. Um that become a lot more [61:48] tractable when you just say, well, we're [61:50] going to, you know, the goal is that [61:51] it's compatible with every theme in the [61:53] world, but we're going to really [61:54] optimize it in this environment, which [61:56] we know top to bottom, and it's very [61:58] consistent. We can run performance tests [62:00] on it, like version after version. Um, [62:03] so I'm really looking forward to that [62:04] for for us internally from a development [62:07] perspective. And then also Katie, [62:09] perfect example, uh, from the community. [62:11] Um, like rather than every every [62:14] developer out there having to come up [62:16] with their own demo, uh, I'd love to see [62:18] it if it was just this standard theme [62:21] that everyone just sort of defaulted to [62:23] for their demos because that sort of uh, [62:27] coalescence of everybody's effort is [62:29] when you really get like leverage on [62:31] like that being a fantastic first [62:33] experience no matter which of these [62:35] solutions you're using. Uh, so I think [62:37] it helps with some of the fragmentation [62:39] that we see otherwise. [62:41] Yeah, that sounds good. And we have a [62:43] live question from Anne Blet, which is [62:46] very closely related, which is, "My [62:48] enterprise customers are all switching [62:50] to full-sight editing hardcore. What's [62:52] the status on all those blocks that seem [62:54] to be just blockified widgets without [62:57] settings?" Um, she also says that having [62:59] to um write custom CSS is expensive. [63:04] >> Yeah. So, uh, the the idea of just [63:06] blockifying widgets, um, that's kind of [63:09] obviously just a first step for us. It's [63:11] like, uh, how do we make these things [63:13] available in a full set editing, uh, [63:16] context? Um, but if there's specific [63:19] feedback on which ones do people need [63:22] settings for first, uh, let us know. [63:25] Reach out on X, uh, reach out on GitHub. [63:28] um that would be really useful to [63:29] understand which ones are people trying [63:31] to use and so we can prioritize actually [63:33] actually doing the sort of full [63:35] blockification if you like um but yeah [63:38] as I said that was just a first step and [63:40] we're sort of continuing down the path [63:42] but understanding the the priority of [63:44] them is is really useful [63:46] >> I think one of the one of the blocks to [63:48] look at which is really cool actually is [63:50] um the add to cart with options block uh [63:54] so if you if you are using a block theme [63:56] and you go in and edit your single [63:57] product template. Um, you can swap out [64:00] the add to cart section uh or the block [64:02] with the add to cart with options beta [64:05] block. Um, and the way that that works [64:08] is really cool. So, it you can enable uh [64:12] I think we call them pills. Uh, so sort [64:15] of buttons rather than drop downs. Um, [64:17] you can preview what it looks like for [64:19] simple products, variable products. Uh, [64:21] I think that's a really nice example of [64:24] where we want to get to with like all of [64:26] our blocks and just like that level of [64:29] detail and flexibility uh is is the goal [64:33] I would say. So check that one out. [64:35] >> Yeah. And and I will add um if you're if [64:38] you're giving feedback on which blocks [64:40] uh blockwidgets you would like to see [64:43] sort of more more detailed control over [64:46] it's also really useful to understand [64:48] exact use cases like exactly what are [64:50] you trying to customize what settings [64:53] would you expect to see but more useful [64:55] is actually like what is the sort of end [64:56] result that you're going for and then we [64:59] can figure out sort of reverse engineer [65:01] exactly what settings would you need to [65:03] be able to do that um you know do we [65:05] need to contribute additional controls [65:07] into Gutenberg or something or probably [65:10] not at this point. You know, there's [65:11] color pickers and sliders and padding [65:14] selections and most of the things are [65:16] there already. It's just a matter of uh [65:18] enabling them for specific blocks. [65:22] >> Yeah, that sounds good. Yeah, it all [65:24] just makes it so much more flexible for [65:26] people. Um, so that all sounds perfect. [65:29] Well, that is all the questions. So, [65:32] thank you so much, Bo, for coming on and [65:34] being so transparent in how decisions [65:36] are made and what's coming up. [65:38] >> Yeah, happy to be here and uh this was [65:41] fun. I'm sure we'll do it again [65:42] sometime. [65:45] >> Yeah, for sure. Uh the next episode we [65:47] have is with James Leage who is uh on [65:50] the AI team at Automatic. Uh and it is [65:53] titled AI Meets Woo and how AI is [65:56] already reshaping e-commerce. So, pop [65:58] that in your calendar. It's on Tuesday [66:00] the 10th of February at 11:00 a.m. ET [66:03] and 5:00 pm C. [66:06] >> Yeah. And after that, James and I will [66:08] be back every month to discuss a [66:10] different area of Woo Commerce. So to [66:12] make sure you don't uh miss upcoming [66:14] episodes, you can find all the options [66:17] for subscribing on dotheoo.com. [66:20] Um you can go to the YouTube channel, [66:23] you can subscribe on X and all the [66:25] different podcast networks as well. [66:28] Thank you. so much for watching. Bye. [66:31] >> Thanks everyone. Bye.