devrelshow episode 41 - Ondřej Chrastina from CKEditor 🔗 **Source:** [devrelshow episode 41 - Ondřej Chrastina from CKEditor](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lRJLmffQC4M) > [!note]+ Document Notes > tags: [developer-relations, rich-text-editor, ai-integration] > author: devrelshow > source: YouTube > reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lRJLmffQC4M > date created: 2024-12-19 10:30 > > # 🏷️ Title: DevRelShow Episode 41 - Ondřej Chrastina from CKEditor > <!-- deep-read:sections start --> ## 🧰 Action Inbox - [H1] Try CKEditor AI features with GitHub login — free playground demo #demo - [H2] Explore 15+ configuration demos on ckeditor.com — product evaluation #explore - [H3] Consider AI integration for rich text editing workflows — product strategy #ai ## 🧭 Table of Contents - [📝 Summary](#-summary) - [📖 Main Content](#-main-content) - [🗒️ Notes](#️-notes) - [📚 References](#-references) - [🗣️ Paraphrase](#️-paraphrase) - [📰 Newsletter](#-newsletter) - [✅ Action Items](#-action-items) - [🧪 Hypotheses](#-hypotheses) - [📊 Methodology](#-methodology) - [❓ Questions](#-questions) - [🔮 Future Research](#-future-research) - [💡 Implications](#-implications) - [🧠 Learning Styles Assessment](#-learning-styles-assessment) - [📊 Accessibility Assessment](#-accessibility-assessment) - [🌍 DEIB Assessment](#-deib-assessment) - [✅ Logical Validity](#-logical-validity) - [🛡️ DARVO Analysis](#-darvo-analysis) - [🎯 Conclusion](#-conclusion) ### 🔗 References - [CKEditor](https://ckeditor.com) - [DevRelShow](https://devrelshow.com) ## 📝 Summary - DevRelShow episode featuring Ondřej Chrastina, Developer Advocate at CKEditor - Discussion of career transition from QA engineer to developer advocate lead to individual contributor - Live demo of CKEditor's new AI features launched November 5, 2024 - Exploration of developer relations quadrants: marketing, community, advocacy, documentation - Technical showcase of rich text editing with real-time collaboration and AI integration ## 📖 Main Content Ondřej Chrastina discusses his role as Developer Advocate at CKEditor, part of the Tiugo family of products. He explains CKEditor as a rich text editor component that developers can embed in applications - similar to Google Docs or Word components for web applications. The product powers text editing in email clients, content management systems, and other applications requiring formatted text input. The conversation covers Ondřej's career evolution from .NET developer to QA engineer to developer advocate lead, and his recent decision to return to individual contributor work to focus more on hands-on technical exploration. He emphasizes the four quadrants of developer relations: developer marketing (showcasing integration), developer evangelization (bringing people to resources), developer community (connecting users), and documentation (though CKEditor's engineering team handles this). The technical demo showcases CKEditor's collaboration features and new AI capabilities. The AI integration stands out by understanding rich text formatting natively - when AI generates content, it creates properly formatted lists, headings, and other elements rather than plain text requiring manual formatting. The system supports multiple AI models (GPT-4, Claude Sonnet, Gemini) through a unified abstraction layer with per-unit pricing rather than requiring individual API keys. ## 🗒️ Notes #### ⏱️ [00:00:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lRJLmffQC4M&t=0) — [H1] DevRelShow Introduction and Schedule Changes - Key idea: Show moving to less frequent schedule due to conference travel - Evidence: "I'm still trying to do it about every two weeks, but once in a while I need to skip them" #### ⏱️ [00:03:22](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lRJLmffQC4M&t=202) — [H2] Guest Introduction - Ondřej Chrastina - Key idea: Developer Advocate at CKEditor with technical background - Evidence: "I'm the developer advocate at CK editor for quite some time already" #### ⏱️ [00:05:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lRJLmffQC4M&t=345) — [H1] What is CKEditor - Key idea: Rich text editor component similar to Google Docs for web applications - Evidence: "Rich text or WYSIWYG editor component that you can plug into your application" #### ⏱️ [00:08:15](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lRJLmffQC4M&t=495) — [H2] Developer Relations Four Quadrants - Key idea: DevRel covers marketing, evangelization, community, and documentation - Evidence: "Developer marketing, developer community, documentation, and developer advocacy" #### ⏱️ [00:12:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lRJLmffQC4M&t=750) — [H3] Engineering Team Owns Documentation - Key idea: Engineering team handling documentation frees DevRel for other activities - Evidence: "We have the whole team from R&D that is taking care of the documentation" #### ⏱️ [00:15:18](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lRJLmffQC4M&t=918) — [H2] Career Transition from Management to IC - Key idea: Moved from leading team to individual contributor for more hands-on work - Evidence: "My passion is like still the tinkering... play around try to put different value or hack it" #### ⏱️ [00:22:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lRJLmffQC4M&t=1365) — [H3] Career Path from QA to DevRel - Key idea: Started as QA "clicker monkey" then automated testing and moved to development - Evidence: "I started as the clicker monkey... then I use it for building my website and internal portals" #### ⏱️ [00:28:12](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lRJLmffQC4M&t=1692) — [H2] AI for Rapid Prototyping - Key idea: AI tools accelerate UI/CSS development for technical demos - Evidence: "It saves me so much time with setting up things... drafting the UI and the CSS" #### ⏱️ [00:32:55](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lRJLmffQC4M&t=1975) — [H1] CKEditor Demo - Google Keep Clone - Key idea: Live demonstration of rich text editing with note-taking application - Evidence: "I white coded the Google Keep clone in React. Then I put the CKEditor into the editing" #### ⏱️ [00:38:20](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lRJLmffQC4M&t=2300) — [H1] Real-time Collaboration Features - Key idea: Multiple users can edit same document simultaneously with live updates - Evidence: "You can see that we are both editing at the same time basically the same section" #### ⏱️ [00:42:15](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lRJLmffQC4M&t=2535) — [H1] AI Integration Demo - Key idea: New AI features launched November 5, 2024 for content generation - Evidence: "It was basically launched on 5th of November. So couple of days" #### ⏱️ [00:45:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lRJLmffQC4M&t=2730) — [H2] AI Rich Text Understanding - Key idea: AI generates properly formatted rich text rather than plain text - Evidence: "AI is thinking and speaking rich text... you already get the heading, you already get the list in place" #### ⏱️ [00:50:12](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lRJLmffQC4M&t=3012) — [H3] Custom AI Prompts and Actions - Key idea: Predefined prompts for common tasks like tone changes - Evidence: "These are basically customized prompts so you don't need to write... change tone be more professional" #### ⏱️ [00:55:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lRJLmffQC4M&t=3345) — [H2] AI Model Abstraction Layer - Key idea: Unified pricing and access to multiple AI models without individual API keys - Evidence: "You are subscribing to the CK editor AI... abstraction layer for paying for the tokens" #### ⏱️ [01:02:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lRJLmffQC4M&t=3750) — [H3] Getting Started Resources - Key idea: Free playground and 15+ demo configurations available - Evidence: "Sign it with GitHub and you can play with that... there are many demos, let's say like 15" ## 📚 References - [CKEditor Website](https://ckeditor.com) - [CKEditor AI Playground](https://ckeditor.com/ckeditor-5/demo/) - [DevRelShow](https://devrelshow.com) ## 🗣️ Paraphrase - CKEditor is a rich text editing component that developers embed in applications, providing Google Docs-like functionality for web apps - Developer relations encompasses four key areas: marketing (showcasing integration), evangelization (driving traffic), community building (connecting users), and documentation support - The new AI integration understands rich text formatting natively, generating properly structured content rather than requiring manual formatting of plain text output ## 📰 Newsletter 🚀 **New AI Features Transform Rich Text Editing** CKEditor just launched AI capabilities that change how developers think about content generation in applications. Unlike traditional AI chat interfaces that output plain text, CKEditor's AI integration understands rich text formatting - generating proper headings, lists, and structured content directly in your editor. **Key Benefits:** - Real-time collaboration with live editing across multiple users - Multiple AI models (GPT-4, Claude, Gemini) through unified pricing - Custom prompts for common tasks like tone adjustment - No individual API keys required - abstracted through CKEditor AI subscription **Try It Now:** Sign up with GitHub for free playground access at ckeditor.com, or explore 15+ configuration demos to see different implementation approaches. **Perfect For:** Content management systems, email clients, documentation platforms, and any application requiring rich text input with intelligent assistance. Resources: [CKEditor Demos](https://ckeditor.com/ckeditor-5/demo/), [Documentation](https://ckeditor.com/docs/), [AI Features](https://ckeditor.com/ckeditor-5/ai-assistant/) ## ✅ Action Items #### DevRel - Developer marketing: Create integration tutorials for popular frameworks, showcase AI features in conference talks, measure adoption metrics through playground signups - Education: Develop workshops on rich text editor implementation, create video tutorials for AI feature integration - Developer experience: Improve getting started documentation, create framework-specific SDKs - Community management: Monitor GitHub discussions, collect feedback on AI features, facilitate user showcases #### WordPress - Core: Evaluate CKEditor AI integration for Gutenberg blocks, assess performance impact - Community: Share integration examples at WordCamps, create plugin development tutorials - Documentation: Document rich text editing best practices, create integration guides ## 🧪 Hypotheses - Rich text AI that maintains formatting will have higher adoption than plain text AI requiring manual formatting - Developer advocates with hands-on technical experience create more authentic product demonstrations - Abstracted AI pricing models reduce friction compared to requiring individual API key management - Real-time collaboration features become table stakes for modern content editing applications ### 📊 Methodology - A/B test plain text AI vs rich text AI integration to measure developer satisfaction - Survey developer advocates on IC vs management preferences and productivity impact - Compare adoption rates between direct API integration vs abstracted pricing models ### ❓ Questions - How does AI-generated rich text affect content quality compared to human-authored content? - What percentage of CKEditor implementations actually utilize collaboration features? - How do developers balance AI assistance with maintaining authentic voice in content? ### 🔮 Future Research - Multi-modal AI integration combining text, images, and video in rich text editors - Real-time AI suggestion systems that don't interrupt natural writing flow - Collaborative AI where multiple users can interact with AI simultaneously ### 💡 Implications - Practice: Rich text AI integration requires rethinking content generation workflows - Security: AI abstraction layers introduce new dependencies and potential vulnerabilities - Education: Developer advocates need hands-on experience with AI tools for authentic demonstrations - Funding: AI feature development may require subscription model changes to cover token costs ### 🧠 Learning Styles Assessment Reading level estimate: 12th grade #### 👀 Visual learners - Present: Live demo screenshots, UI walkthrough of editor features - Improve: Architecture diagrams of AI integration, visual comparison of plain vs rich text output #### 🔊 Aural learners - Present: Full video discussion and demonstration - Improve: Audio-only podcast version, background music during demo sections #### 🗣️ Verbal learners - Present: Detailed explanations of technical concepts, analogies to familiar tools - Improve: Glossary of rich text editing terms, comparison tables #### 🧩 Kinesthetic learners - Present: Interactive playground demo, step-by-step integration walkthrough - Improve: Downloadable code samples, guided tutorial checklist #### 🧠 Logical learners - Present: Clear feature categorization, systematic demo progression - Improve: Decision tree for choosing AI models, performance benchmarks #### 🧑‍🤝‍🧑 Social learners - Present: Live Q&A format, discussion of team collaboration features - Improve: Community showcase examples, user story discussions #### 🧘‍♀️ Solitary learners - Present: Individual exploration encouraged through playground - Improve: Self-paced tutorial paths, reflection questions on implementation #### 🌿 Naturalistic learners - Present: Career evolution narrative, organic technology adoption patterns - Improve: Industry ecosystem context, natural workflow integration examples ### 📊 Accessibility Assessment #### Screen reader semantics - Present: Video has spoken content throughout demo - Improve: Detailed alt text for UI elements shown, transcript with visual descriptions #### Keyboard navigation - Present: Demo shows mouse interaction primarily - Improve: Demonstrate keyboard shortcuts, show focus management in editor #### Contrast and readability - Present: Clear video quality with readable text - Improve: High contrast mode demo, font size adjustment examples #### Media and captions - Present: Full transcript provided - Improve: Auto-generated captions, audio descriptions of visual elements ### 🌍 DEIB Assessment #### Cultural breadth - Present: International guest (Czech Republic), global remote work discussion - Improve: Examples from diverse geographic markets, multi-language editor demos #### Inclusive language - Present: Professional terminology, respectful interaction - Improve: Define technical jargon consistently, avoid idioms #### Neurodiversity support - Present: Clear structure with timestamps, multiple learning modalities - Improve: Content warnings for rapid UI changes, consistent heading structure #### Representation - Present: Diverse professional backgrounds (QA to DevRel transition) - Improve: Highlight accessibility features of editor, inclusive use cases ### ✅ Logical Validity #### Strong reasoning - Deductive strength: Clear progression from problem (plain text AI limitations) to solution (rich text AI) - Inductive strength: Career evolution examples support broader DevRel trends - Causal reasoning: Demonstrates cause-effect relationship between AI integration and improved developer experience - Analogical strength: Effective comparison to familiar tools (Google Docs, Word) #### Fallacies - Appeal to novelty: Emphasizing "new AI features" without addressing potential drawbacks - Hasty generalization: Assuming all developers prefer hands-on IC work based on personal preference #### Tone of voice - Overall tone: Collaborative and educational, authentic technical discussion with appropriate technical depth ### 🛡️ DARVO Analysis - Deny: No defensive patterns observed - Attack: No attacks on competitors or critics present - Reverse victim/offender: Not applicable to this technical discussion - Emotional cues and rhetoric: Positive enthusiasm for technology without manipulative elements ## 🎯 Conclusion This DevRelShow episode effectively demonstrates both the evolution of developer relations careers and the practical application of AI in rich text editing. Ondřej's journey from QA to DevRel leadership to individual contributor reflects broader industry trends toward specialization <!-- deep-read:sections end --> ## 📺 Video  --- # 📄 Full Transcript *Auto-generated from YouTube captions · timestamps roughly every 30 seconds · [watch on YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lRJLmffQC4M)* **[00:00]** Heat. [music] [music] Heat. [music] >> [music] **[00:31]** >> Hello, hello lovely people. Welcome to another episode of the Dell Show. You know, it's been a while. It's been a month now. Uh and I'm sorry for folks that were joining me every two weeks uh since I started the new job. uh you know traveling is back on my daytoday on my journey as a developer advocate which I was not doing that much at the previous company for reasons uh which mean that now I'm on the road once in a while and if you're a developer advocate you know that when you're on the road uh it's not **[01:02]** just party and like mingling with people there's a lot of things to do which mean that I'm usually busy from like the beginning of the day to the end of the day which make it a little bit harder to do the devil show when I'm on conferences So, I'm still I'm still trying to do it about every two weeks, but once in a while I need to skip them. Uh, with that said though, I have one plan uh two weeks ago, but unfortunately my guest was not available anymore, which happened. It's live. That happens to me. But uh do not worry folks, I'm **[01:33]** continuing continuing to do the devil show. um actually have so many guests in the wait list that now I'm entirely fully booked until the end of 2028 uh in terms of like having guests. So if you want to be on a show, please let me know because I had you at the end of the list and uh once your time that give you an opportunity to be on the show before and who knows like I may have cancellation, people that lack that don't have interest anymore to come on the show. people that cannot come on the show anymore for whatever reason. Maybe they're gonna change job, whatever. **[02:05]** Meaning that like there is plenty of opportunity to do the dev show with me. So u again super excited to be here. This is the before last show before the end of the year because you know I just told you travel. So I'm not going to be able to do a show in two weeks. Uh I'm going to be in the lovely Australia which going to be nice because live in Canada. Winter started now which mean that there is snow. It is cold. I have power outage once in a while. Uh now going to be in the like really hot and **[02:36]** sunny and shiny uh Sme for like about a week and a half for conference and meet up during that time. Uh not going to be able to do Devil's show. But do not worry have one last episode scheduled for the end of the year in about a month. And after that, you know what? It's going to be the holiday. It's going to be Christmas. probably Maria Carrie is is on freezing uh right now and she's like starting we're going to start to her her holiday song coming in the radio really really soon. But on that note, I'm blabbering for three minutes. This **[03:07]** is the devil show with Brad, but it's always the de show with the guest. The show is all about the guest and I have Andre with me today. How is live Andre? >> Hey, thanks for having me. It's it's going good. It's going good. But the weather it's similar as you have in in Montreal. Not not any snow yet, but yeah, we are getting closer and closer. >> Yeah, I mean like I've always lived in Winterland Canada. Uh I'm used to it, which doesn't mean that I like it. I mean, don't get me wrong, snow is beautiful. Uh you know, when we had full **[03:38]** snow and the snow were over like the tree was like that's beautiful, but it also means that I'm freezing my ass. It also means that I need to shovel it. It also means that like the streets like it's more dangerous to drive and and good thing though where I live uh in Quebec it's it's one of the province uh and Montreal BC is one of the city that is the most well equipped for uh snow in the world which mean that like life does not stop when it's getting cold and when we have snow. Still I prefer a weather **[04:10]** that is a little bit more warm but you know it's life. I live here I'm used to it. Uh on that note, uh for people that do not know you, tell us who are you? >> All right. So my name is Andre. You can call me Andreas, Andre, whatever transformation of the name suits your tongue or lung. So uh I'm the developer advocate at CK editor uh for quite some time already. Uh before that I was doing developer relations with other companies. I was uh mainly uh the **[04:41]** technical ones. So I was handling the GitHub, the open source communities, the open-source repositories. So yeah, that's that's uh me in the nutshell. Uh other than work, yeah, I like food. I like cooking. I like cooking. I like eating the food more. Uh I like beer. I like tasting it. I like to brew it. I like to try honestly not brew it well. uh so far and yeah technologically I **[05:12]** started as a .NET developer then I slowly went through the hype of the TypeScript and JavaScript and now I'm basically still writing it. >> That's that sounds great. So uh you know funny enough for people that are watching the show right now um Andre is on my team. So I run the developer relations team at Taigo and Taigo has a couple brands and product and CK is one of the brands. So uh I know Andre but we **[05:42]** started at Taigo about at the same time. Um like Andre started just a little a little bit before me. Uh so they hire a developer advocate and as someone to like run the team and I started just a little bit after but we never had the chance yet to meet in person because we started and we jump right away like everything we had to do but good news though I'm really happy because I said we're doing live stream right now obviously we work together we chat often on Slack we have meetings meetings but as I said we've never met in person and **[06:14]** this weekend uh like both our brands we represent at Taigo going to the same advanced JS nation in New York. Actually, it's not in New York, just outside of New York uh in uh Jersey. But, uh we both going to be there. So, we're going to have finally a face toface be able to meet in person. So, really excited to uh do that because I've been working remotely for about 14 years and and I'm good with that. But meeting people in person, it really changed the relation you have with your coworker after been able to do that. So, **[06:46]** super excited to be able to do that. Yeah, for sure. Like for for me it's super I'm super happy that we'll meet because honestly I started uh and I went to Poland which is the most let's say uh most u inhabited uh country of the employees of seek editor. So I I met I met like 80% of the team already and I mean the developers UI sales everybody but yeah we didn't basically met each other so I'm looking forward to that and **[07:18]** yeah I'm glad that we have some time even because yeah usually during conference you said it's a little bit more crazier than usual. It is. It is. So, Andre, uh, so right now you're a developer advocate, uh, focusing on a CK editor, uh, my product. What does that mean? So, what your job like for people listening like what's your job as developer advocate at CK editor? >> So, long story short, first I need to explain to the developers what the CK editor is. So, that's my bread and butter and that's my first goal. So **[07:50]** basically what I'm telling people when I'm on a conference or if they ask me what it is is the rich text or visic editor component that you can plug in into into your application. If you are developer and you used some of these you are basically uh in in the really good spot for me so because I can then go deeper. If you haven't like you are I don't know doing webs for I don't know for a living for the smaller companies you are doing landing pages you don't need the rich text editor that much or you are using it and you don't even know **[08:21]** about it so you can think of it as well uh if you're a business persona uh you can think of it of a Google component or sorry Google docs like component or a word life component that you can plug it into your application. So for example, if you are I don't know writing an email, the real the little text area where you can do bolds and these kind of things is the text editor itself. It's rich text editor and it's probably uh one of the few that are on the market **[08:52]** and yeah probably it's going to be CK editor with like 50% chance because it's quite uh well uh well well used on the market. So that's my uh elevator page that I'm using at the beginnings. >> Not that's good. So uh now let people know a little more about CK editor what it is. Uh we can have a demo like a technical demo later so people will understand some of the features of CK editor but about that so as a developer **[09:22]** advocate because that's kind of like the premise of the show is to help people understand what is developer relation. Uh so tell people a little bit I know there is no day-to-day in developer relation but like what is your job as an individual contributor focusing on cater? >> Yeah I always start with like this uh little four uh parts that developer and develop developer advocate can do. So, it's developer marketing, developer community, um developer um or **[09:53]** documentation, and uh which is the fourth one? I probably don't do it right now. Developer community, developer uh advocacy. Yeah, that's the one. I skipped that one. So, uh if I focus on the work that I do for the CK, it's developer marketing. So basically showcase the people how to use the uh CK editor, how to integrate it, how to get up to speed quickly, where are the resources, basically show uh how to uh integrate it uh in your application and **[10:25]** what it actually does and what's the benefit. Then you have the uh developer evangelization. Uh so basically talking to the people and bringing them to uh our our website or our repositories and these kind of things. developer community. Yeah. Uh I'm touching base with the people. Some people are already using CK editor and need to go deeper. But um many are like okay so there's there are editors how we can leverage the power. What does your platform do **[10:56]** behind the scenes and these kind of things? So you are trying to connect people and uh I'd like to uh call it like we are helping developer to help each other. So we're trying to interconnect them together and uh trying to uh trying to put them to the right place. And the last one is documentation. Honestly, this is what not what I'm covering in CK because we have the whole team from R&D that is taking care of the documentation. They are doing awesome job. They are uh basically saving uh my time for uh for **[11:26]** the other uh free quadrants. Yeah, that's that's the thing. Uh, you know, because yeah, a tigo I was working uh all the brands like the engineering own documentation which I didn't see that often at many companies but I like that approach because they're the one building their project so they know about it. It's also I feel like it also brings a faster documentation because usually when I own documentation the engineers were working product and I had to wait for them to have some kind of **[11:56]** like alpha version that can try but even there was not completed and I had to learn how about it was working just to be able to write the doc. So now I think the engineering team, the product team owning the documentation is quite different. Even if I was a little bit sad because I really like this is something that I hated to when I started as a developer advocate writing documentation but it really grown on me and the last two three companies that was one of my focus and I really loved writing documentation and I really because for me it's kind of like the **[12:28]** foundation it's the the most important pillar uh of of your product. You can have the best product out there. If your documentation sucks that that won't work that like people won't be able to be successful. >> So yeah know but as you said it brings benefit meaning like you don't have to do it which free you uh sometime to do other stuff uh where you can also have other impact on on your day-to-day job. >> True. True. And yeah if you take a look to the CK documentation it's awesome. uh **[12:59]** first thing that I wanted to go to uh I just wanted to go there get the source code and get the latest versions because yeah the documentation it's kind of have a little bit of a delay it's not like weeks but it's usually like days so if I see some internal demo I need to know how it's been configured I want to see the the documentation so my first steps in the in the company were like hey guys can I have an access can I install the development version can I have the nightly and Yeah, after that I'm all set **[13:30]** and I'm ready to like be like one step ahead uh from the developers that want to learn it. So I already have the hands-on hands-on experience from the let's say unpublished version from the documentation. It's really good. >> Oh, that's good. And uh now we talk about the role that you have for the last six months. But prior to that you were working at uh atkama if I if I said it right. uh you were a developer advocate lead. So um like sometimes a **[14:01]** title lead can mean different things. It can mean that you lead Derell because you're the only person or it can means you lead the team because you like you're a manager, you have people. So like can can you tell us a little more about who was that specific role at Atakama? >> Yeah. Yeah. If we are going to the history uh just brace yourself, we will go through all of the uh let's say specific names. So this one is Atakama with 2C right and you will see that we will go on with this let's say u **[14:32]** modifications but in Atakama it was a little bit of a detour of my let's say primary expertise because it was a big data atakama is doing the master data management and data quality and my role was there was to basically focus on the data quality and introduce the developer relations into that because they didn't have any developer relations before. So I kind of established the uh established the structure there what we should do. Again we defined what part of the **[15:03]** quadrant we will do. I put together the team at the end when I was uh finishing was already four people. I got super great uh students that were just finishing the college. So they were working part-time and two full-time uh full-time uh developer advocates. Yeah, it was a little bit harder because Atakama is a little bit bigger company and yeah, there were processes that you need to set in stone was a new role for the whole company. So set up the letter and basically doing the management stuff **[15:34]** at first and I was slowly trying to uh introduce their open source uh packages around their around their platform uh put together the put together the setup for their packages and basically my uh let's say finishing project was integration with snowflake. So if you don't know Atakama because they are uh they're they are pretty big. since they're one of the three in the gardener in this top magic quadrant in master data management and data quality but **[16:04]** yeah nobody like there is not many people that are using it on daily basis uh let's say from the front end and JavaScript developers but yeah if you know if you know Snowflake we did an integration with that so now you can install it and have these little uh data quality checks that are running the data the atakama engine and you can have them uh like by one click and this This is what we did as the let's say final project before I left. >> Yeah, that's good. I didn't use snowflake since since years, but like my **[16:36]** memory is that like it's a complicated beast. So like if there is a product that can just like make it make make [snorts] something specific really easily. Uh that's pretty cool. And and if you want to share, you don't have to if you don't want to, but I'll be curious uh because I was not part of your interview process. So you may have had that question but like like you were leading a team and now you decided to go in a individual contributor role. Uh so why the change you want to share maybe too personal? Oh no, I will definitely **[17:08]** share and I'm I'm like open book in that because yeah from what you might see or maybe you have already seen I like to dig in the code and like do the little experiments and then write about it or maybe do a little video but my passion is like still the tinkering right so basically play around try to like put a little different value or hack it a little bit and maybe bend it uh and see uh how the how the software works uh which yeah if you're doing manager you **[17:38]** probably touch the base with that you don't have that much of a time for this tinkering even though you can justify it or you can put the blocker in your calendar or something like that it's still you are pushing it but you are not doing it so the my like my driving main driving point was hey I would like to get back to the to the code even though I'm not coding that much anymore because yeah I'm just using AI to tell it what to do but still it's tinkering and I really like it. >> Yeah. No, and and it depends also on the **[18:11]** manager role. I mean like I'm a manager right now but I have a team of one. So I I don't do a lot of management. do a little bit of like leadership trying to think where devil is going at Target the main company on our brands and like how we're going to achieve our goal what are our goals how we're going to measure that uh thinking about bigger projects to have bigger impact like at some point having like something a developer community or like some kind of like VP expert uh program but like yeah more people you have under someone uh at some **[18:43]** point doesn't mean that you cannot do day-to-day stuff but like it's getting a little bit harder because became like a big part of your job is is management and not just like trying to do like I do right now. I do a lot of like individual individual contributor stuff within my own product. Uh but still managing devil and leading devil at the company level. But yeah, I understand where you're coming from. Uh when I was looking for a job, I was open to both because I like both. I like like building developer relation. I like to take developer **[19:13]** relation to the next step. But I also love to do the day-to-day things that a developer out could. So, so far I have uh the boat as well from my point of view. We'll see in the future, but for now uh for now I like it. Uh you mentioned about um the fact that like you code less and you use more AI so you do a lot of by coding. uh when you code uh would like to share a little more about like like your experience and how you see how we see AI and by coding as developer advocate. **[19:45]** >> Yeah, for me it's awesome tool because I don't really need to be that um uh precise. I don't need to set the gu guard rail that much because for me I need to test the stuff pretty quickly. I need to know how it works and basically get the idea of the concept. I know that my coding and my outputs are not this not something that you would put into the production uh like just yet, but I can explain the concepts and it saves me **[20:17]** so much time with uh setting up things. For me personally, and I think you will see it, I'm not a designer, but if I need to show something, I need to have a little bit of a wireframe or just like draft a little bit of the ideas. So, writing code is fine. Like I can probably save some time with AI, but not much. But drafting the UI and the CSS and like even like imagine it is hard and then writing into the like uh styles somehow and you have multiple frameworks **[20:49]** that you want to showcase for me it saves so much time and if I get a concept I can tune it I understand what it what it outputs but yeah it's just lifesaving like uh from the time perspective because if I want to play 10 run 10 projects I can do I can just like generate them see like how it works for I don't know CRM UI because I can generate it pretty quickly. I can see how it look like for content management system. I can generate some dummy content management **[21:19]** system fairly quickly. It's useless but it kind of shows what does content management system should do. Right. So that's that's how I use it. >> That makes sense. Um about your career though uh you know like rarely people start as developer advocate. They always have like most of the time they always have like another role where they got like more technical experience before realizing that like yeah maybe I can use my technical chop to like you know being a developer advocate to help developer **[21:50]** other developers being successful and uh for you you said you started as a net developer but I know that after that also you were a QA engineer uh >> yeah it was it was right before that uh because I started with a and it was like after bachelor's uh when I was studying my masters I started work as started to work at the company was doing um digital experience platform or enterprise marketing suite it's basically content management system online marketing **[22:21]** e-commerce everything in one place so you basically just install it and uh you are good to go for your digital presence and I started as the clicker monkey um in my CV it's a junior QA of course but I was basically clicking through the scenarios that I get and check checking the checking the outputs was like for three months and I really like it >> because you can learn how to use the platform itself then I use it for building uh building uh my website and a couple of internal portals it was really nice but during like I don't know this **[22:54]** three four months it starts to get repetitive and yeah you are trying to automate things so I was touching the base with the unit testing it was really early stage I I think it was like and I don't want to it's like 2013 2012 maybe so it was the the time where the unit testing like slowly starting to be uh wellestablished CI/CD was basically a swear word at the time uh everybody was running tests on their own machines or they were having some server that you **[23:26]** just needed to deploy it and then run something manually. So we basically re rewritten the whole uh monkey clicking scenarios into the this automation setup and that's where I started with net and I mean the actual coding because I also needed to write the code or change the code to have the tests passing and yeah I slowly got to the point and it's still QA in my CV. It was still QA on the paper. I was basically uh doing the **[23:56]** couple of pieces of the development for the content management module. Then I touch base with the online marketing module. then e-commerce modules and you learn a thing or two uh from these concepts and then I use it uh when we were basically spinning up our internal uh internal uh startup within the company where I just like was just like looking around because there were like five founding u persons that were like putting together the idea and the lean lean startup and **[24:27]** the business idea and so on and so forth and at certain point they needed to have the developer community and that's when me and my colleague went went into the developer relations because yeah we kind of needed the SDKs because it was headless everything that is headless needs some kind of tooling around detooling around so we started to tinkering around that and that's basically where the idea of the developer relations team uh were was established >> okay and and I need to say like it **[24:58]** wasn't for you but like I I I have a gigantic respect for QA folks. Uh I mean like it's it's not always appreciated job but like it's so important uh because you know as a developer you should do some testing before submitting your P like you should ensure that like it's working as good as it could and but like you build it. So sometimes it's not always easy to test your own things. Um even like test the code, but like also **[25:29]** uh like manually testing your stuff and like there's still going to have bugs. So having like a good QA person that come after you that try to basically destroy your thing. This is how I see QA but like in the positive way. They just try to use it properly but also use it has like any other users that don't know how it's working could use it. Uh that saves a lot of bugs. uh hopefully for the end users and I think it's a pretty uh it's a pretty important job. Um I love to I'm not I'm not an expert. I love to do some testing myself. Was a **[26:00]** when I was a uh freelancer or when I was a developer and I was um leading team my my engineers or my developer they hated me because I was testing everything and I was really meticulous. So finding issues and they were like Fred stop finding issues. like no if there's a bug like we need to know it's there maybe we don't need to fix it right now but we need to know it's there and uh they were like but user will never use it that way like don't don't say that user are really creative in the way that they use **[26:31]** the software that you build in the improper way that it should be used so yeah having great test is great >> yeah and there is there is also one thing that uh when you are already have established platform which we already had people are relying on certain behavior but certain people don't. So if the second group uh decided to raise the bug like hey this is not behaving correctly and you change it you basically affect the the first group and **[27:01]** we were balancing these two uh two posts uh very on a very high level because there were like little things like uh redirects of the URLs but at the end of the day it can affect your SEO and like how much you are making how much money you're making right so yeah it was the small things but at the end of the day it basically it basically uh can uh benefit like even the the QA and I I do have a respect for the QAS and yeah when I'm uh saying that I was a clicker **[27:33]** monkey I wasn't the QA yeah I was just doing the internship more or less but in the CV uh junior QA engineer for three months looks much better right >> yeah yeah than clicker monkey that sounds that sounds a little bit better as a title so Amazing. Uh and Andre uh we both uh are developer advocates. We could talk probably forever. Uh what I'm trying to do with that show is that when we are around like 30 minutes and it feels that we talk a little more about **[28:03]** like you know our vision of Devril or the experience of the guest. Uh from my point of view it's usually time to move to the demo. Uh usually I ask people like can tell me a little more about your company and your product and before going to the demo. you already introduced people to CK editor. Uh I don't know if there's anything else you want to add but if not uh let's move to the uh demo so uh you know people can understand a little more visually is the product also understand develop how they how they can they use it and I demo **[28:35]** today's is going to be also specific because there's a lot of things you can show about your product but it's going to be specific about the new AI feature that was launched not long ago am I right? Yeah, >> it was basically launched on 5th of November. So couple of days uh couple of days I think was share your screen. >> There you go. So uh what I would like to show you it's a basically free demos. It's my playground. As I said I like tinkering. So this is my tinkering. So **[29:07]** not everything will work. This is not a production. This is the demo that I will I'm showcasing to the people. First one is um it's the copy of the well-known uh system for making notes. Uh I think you might even re uh find out how it works. I basically recorded a free videos out of um out of it. It's basically I white coded the Google Keep uh Google Keep clone uh in React. Then I put the seek editor into **[29:38]** the editing of the node. And for the last one, I put the collaboration features. So this is uh what it does right now. And for today, I added the AI features in there. So what it is, it's basically a note takingaking occupation uh application. So if I need to make a note, uh I need to open up uh the setup. You can see it's super slow because I have something uh in my pocket. Uh basically my uh local server is running this uh thing and I will hopefully be **[30:09]** sharing it with Fred. But if I need to make the note, I just go there and I say like hey uh I don't know by mail and yeah you can see uh it's already uh working like a little little editor. But for people that do not know sk editor like like what we see right now that that looks a little bit like Google Docs or Word like this this is CK editor. >> Yes. Yes. Exactly. So uh for example if **[30:39]** you if I need to actually do the bullet points or if you want to have the actual checklist there. So for here I will probably uh just try to buy milk and I will do a lot of typos. This is one of the specialties of mine. So just uh get ready for that. So you you can have this little checklist. And yeah, if I go back, I have my note being saved there. If uh we would like to uh see the little bit more rich text formatting demo, I **[31:10]** can open up this one. It will load up uh the whole seek editor hopefully in a minute. Uh here you go. and it will load up the whole uh full text or rich text itself. So this is >> Go ahead. Go ahead. >> Yeah, sorry I cut you. I was just going to say as you said like now it to it took time to load the CK because it's an application you build running locally and and like there's a lot of things to keep in mind but like usually as a **[31:40]** developer if I use CK editor and I head to my application I assume it will load a lot faster than that. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. like this is this is a little bit lighter application because this one uh this one doesn't have so much optimal uh doesn't have uh that much application. It loads a little bit quicker. If I have this it's basically uh instant. So if I'm switching the if I'm switching the uh content and this one doesn't work. So uh we will see whether **[32:10]** this one doesn't work. So this one I won't show you. Uh this is for the UI. Yeah, this one I didn't hook up. But usually it's super quick. So if you go for example to CK editor, if you go to any demo, for example, this feature each one, it will loads in the in a second. You can see that there there is plenty of features and it doesn't really uh fits. Yeah, as I said, I build all the thing. I download whole bundle. I don't really care what is loaded. I just want to show uh what it does. So uh that's uh **[32:40]** that's one of the darker thing for having the quick demos and the quick uh showcases. But what I would like to do today or showcase you it's next to this which is just the note takingaking application. Uh there is also an implementation of the collaboration features. You can see here uh it's ole room which is my sodon name. uh by default if you don't configure it seek editor will give you the random name and as uh as uh this uh **[33:12]** persona I'm doing the changes you can see it's running on local host but and that's uh that's uh because uh that's that's the slowness because I also have the same application here on the different domain which is using angro uh and this one uh is uh basically the same application under the hood But I make this application multi-tenant. So what I can do is open up this rich text formatting demo and uh let the C editor **[33:43]** load and at the at the same time I will send this uh URL with this uh secret GUID which I'm using to identify my shared uh document. uh to open it up. You can see that there are already two people and because we already tested it out uh or I tested it out before. So now we have the third person so I can see what I'm writing and if uh you can uh Fred **[34:15]** write something. Yeah, this is Fred and I will do Eric. And I you can see that we are both editing at the same time basically the same section of the section of the document. And this is uh what the CK editor give you out of the box next to the editor. So that's what I wanted to show you. You don't just get the uh super cool uh Google Docs that you can embed it into application, but you just put put a couple of URLs into the platform and you have everything in **[34:45]** place. You have the you have the uh setup. You I can open open up the revision history. We can see uh who does who does what changes. I can go back to the editing. Uh if I if I turned it on, I didn't. We can have the tracking changes. We can even have the diffs in between versions. I can see who is there. Yeah, it's not Fred because as I said, it will give you the random name. So now Fred is Farley, right? So this is uh what this uh what this editor is **[35:16]** about. It has around like 300 features or something. And hopefully uh there won't be anything anything uh vulgar in there, Fred. And uh this is what you will get. And as the bonus we can have a new virtual friend. >> And just before you move there uh like of the collaboration that like we work on the same document it is not new. It is not your node application. You did not build that like it's part of CK editor. It's a feature that is part CK. **[35:48]** >> Thank you for Yes. I just built a front end. I have no back end with there. The only thing that I did was uh create react app. Oh, it was the vit uh because create create react app is dead. Uh so I just created the starter starter react. I put together uh I put together the configuration for seek editor. I put the I put the output basically from the builder and that's it. I didn't build any server. It's not running any server. The only thing that is uh being currently running next to it is this **[36:19]** tunnel from Fred to my computer because I didn't deploy it into the server. So that's that's what it is. And with the same manner, I didn't implement any AI service. I just configured another free plugins. And if I click on it, I already have this uh this uh AI. >> Can you zoom a little bit? >> Yes, sure. Yes. So let me zoom a little bit. >> Perfect. >> Yeah. Wonderful. Yeah. >> And let's ask it anything. Do you have anything in mind, Fred, that we can ask? **[36:50]** >> Oh god. Uh good question. I mean, uh, can I write a small paragraph that talks about cats? [snorts] >> Okay. Add a paragraph that talks about cats. Uh, add it to the beginning of the document. I just specify the the place so that we don't need to search for it since uh there is a zoom. But it will um **[37:23]** uh uh think for a little while but after that it knows the context of the whole document that we are write writing in. So if I just specify the the the beginning you can already see it. I can take a look to the preview. So it so will look like that. So welcome gets are fascinating creatures. They have been companions to humans for thousands of years and so on and so forth. So I can show the details uh have it highlighted and I can apply it. I don't have the **[37:54]** suggested um suggesting feature turned on for here. But if I did have I can also have the suggestion that this little nice div like you're suggesting in the different documents. So I just put it in there and it's uh there the and it's not visible here but if uh make me a list what to shop for I don't know uh pasta **[38:24]** bolo yes and add it to the beginning. Uh the important thing here is that uh AI is thinking and speaking rich text. So if you are used to the uh AI chat and conversational AI uh yeah you are getting the outputs then you are copying and pasting it and then you are spending an hours to fix the links fix the lists and these kind of things. If you are **[38:54]** using the uh this AI, you can see I already if I apply the changes, I already get the heading, I already get the get the list in place. So this is uh what is also uh interesting on this AI because it already knows what I want to do. >> Yeah. And it's it's so yeah that was one of my questions uh because you know every applications out there are integrating with AI where like sometimes it makes sense sometimes like yeah I can just go like on cloud or like chat GBT **[39:25]** and like copy paste my content but this AI feature is integrated within CK so it can manipulate different formatting can like really include stuff within your document. Uh I assume like now you said like had this at the beginning but you could have said like had this between this paragraph and this paragraph and would have been able to put it there. Now you decided to put a list but like it's it's able to manipulate the the like the content of document based on **[39:56]** your request with AI. So >> yes, that that's correct. And for that I have the second demo because yeah, my notes are really nice because they already have the collaboration and I can point people to how how I build it. That's why I like make it uh for a quick demo for the AI. But for here uh I have the let's say content management system uh CRM system and report system and product system at one place. Again I generated it via AI. So nothing super **[40:27]** super complicated but yeah I can for example open up this customer global logistics you can see what it does how much is the contract value and uh if I close the close the setup uh this is the CK editor already in place with the information about this customer and I can do basically the same with what I did but I think I have prepared the setup for the queue for uh performance because there are a lot of **[40:58]** other features that what you can do because there are quick actions so I will just be very very brief but these are the basically customized prompts so you don't need to write my uh change tone be more professional all the time into the chat um select select the proper select the proper um selection put it into the first paragraph and basically chat with the whole AI chat for quite sometime when I need to do basically the same thing all over and **[41:28]** over because I just want to have this paragraph professional or this paragraph professional. So I can just do it uh this way or you can just uh ask it here. Uh so let's put it like that. And let's ask it to change the tone or I'm not sure which one we would like to use. Which one we would like to use? You have any? >> Oh, go with other like explain explain **[41:58]** it to me like I'm five. Yeah. >> Yes. This one is my custom. I basically >> Okay. I thought it was part of like default the product. I was like that's brilliant. I love that. I didn't know. >> Yeah. Yeah. I was I was trying to put it in there. It's in the it's in the tests uh in the in the internal test. So, we are testing this one so we can see uh what it does. And yeah, in the uh the fourth quarter, it's last three months. So I think now we can already see it's doing the job that it should. **[42:29]** >> We're really really good. >> Yeah. And sometimes I actually use it. Uh I just copy and paste the I just copy and paste the text here and just ask it ask it uh to summarize me because because it also understands understands the tables and these kind of things which some other uh AIS you need to copy and paste it into CSV or like transfer the data somehow. For this one you can just ask and this is what I wanted to show you. We can just um take this as **[43:00]** the base and I can just create a new chat so that we are uh we are having the clean slate. We can choose the model that we are using. But the important thing is I created the internal guidelines. It's custom email guidelines which I generated via um uh CH GPT and put them as the URL to my guest. It already knows about it. But the idea behind it is you are having your internal documents they are secured and **[43:30]** you are having them integrated into the CK uh into the CK editor. And uh once it's loaded, I can ask it like, "Hey, write me an email to my CFO." Uh and uh highlight the last year uh results, only the good ones, and send him best wishes. **[44:01]** uh that 2025 uh might be even better. So if you have your boss already uh you can send it. I'm not sure why it's not loading. Yeah, this is always happening uh >> when you have the live demo, right? >> Demo god. >> So yes, I just change it. So, let me just copy copy the prompt and refresh it because I didn't paste the correct URL **[44:33]** before the before the setup. So, we'll see how it goes right now. So, let's open it up once again and see email guidelines. I will copy and paste my stuff. There you go. Perfect. now because I did have the small typo at the beginning of the URL. So now it has it and it's preparing the AI response for **[45:05]** that. It will give will tell me what I need to do and it automatically decides whether it should do the suggestions into the actual content or it should just reply me and have a conversation with me and show me um or tell me what I can uh what I can reply to my CFO, right? So this is and you can already see it's uh it's streaming the data so you don't get the reply right ahead. It's proposing the proposing the changes. So **[45:36]** now the AI decided to uh email to the that the email to the CFO should be should be put in there. You don't need to do it. You can just copy and paste it and use it as as you want to. But if you take a look, it says, "Hey, I'm reaching out to share some outstanding achievements from 2024 performance and I believe will be particular interest of you blah blah blah. This is what we did uh last year. The result reflects the dedication of your entire team blah blah blah." And you make your CFO a little **[46:06]** bit more happy. I tried it like three or four times. It always does similar thing, but it always gets the feeling what you want to do. Uh yeah, you can then to change the tone and so on and so forth. And then you can just either copy and paste it because yeah, this is also copy and pasteable. It's a rich text. So if I copy and paste it somewhere uh uh somewhere to the email editor, it will understand it and it will keep the keep the formatting or you can just apply and put it into the into the document itself. **[46:37]** >> So you could use that as um sorry was commenting earlier. I just realized I didn't know if you were ignoring me or I was on mute actually because one of my cattails is sleeping next to me and he's snoring so loud. I don't think my mic pick it up, but I mute myself. And anyway, I was saying that like it's great because you can also use it for for cash that may not be related to CK like you're already in it and you just tell like, hey, I was working on that report, but I need to send information to my CFO. I can just use it right now **[47:08]** and and copy paste this your mail client. Or if you use I assume CK editor would be also good for use case if like within your application as a developer uh you're building a email system uh people need to send so you can just like your CK editor could be your combos window for sending your email and and you'll be good to go with that. >> Yes. Yes. >> That's pretty cool. I have a question for you. So you show P models. Uh it seemed like they were focused on on chat GBT. We've seen it really quickly, but **[47:40]** like like do we have a choice of Okay. Yeah. Okay. I I >> Yeah, the choice the choice is yours. Although I'm using it most of the time because it like basically decides itself. Uh some of them has the reasoning, some of them don't. Of course, GGPT 4.1 does not have the reasoning, but it costs a little less. So if you and you can customize what users can use. So if you really want to start slow and you don't want to go and open the Sonet because it's a little bit more expensive per token, you can just **[48:11]** open them what they uh what they can do or you can just like pick just one just for them and basically isolate the user out of uh out of these choices because yeah I can imagine some older company that has some old system uh they introduced the AI or CK AI and with all of the quick changes, AI chat and there is also AI review which we didn't really start with. Uh then there are like reasoning and some web search and **[48:42]** resources and so on and so forth and they can feel overwhelmed. >> So you can start really slow you can start with like just quick action just one you can just have just one like hey um make it shorter make it longer. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So you can >> slowly iterate and get get them to up to speed >> and and about that um because I'm really curious that how it's working and and to be honest like even if like as I said at the beginning Andre is on my team I I do not focus on CK so I'm aware of the like **[49:13]** I not aware everything about the product because time and life but uh like doesn't mean that CK is like AI provider right now or you need to connect that to your actual account. So now you had chat GPT so you're using open AI you had intro uh you had I think Gemini too. So you I assume you need to at some point put some like API key as a developer and it's connected to your own account or like how how does how it's working that have access to all those with a CK editor. **[49:43]** >> Yeah. uh there is a abstraction layer because above all of these technically uh practically you are not providing any API keys to any of the systems you are subscribing to the uh C editor AI you if you subscribe or if you buy an add-on called C editor AI you get the access to everything and then you customize it you allow the models and yeah it's basically unified pricing per unit so we have abstraction layer for paying for the tokens uh which is yeah abstracted from **[50:15]** the actual model tokens. >> Awesome. Sounds good. Um is there anything else you wanted to show or or we are reaching the end? I have one thing that I wanted to show and this is the play with the with the UI. As I said I'm no designer so it will be pretty uh uh pretty uh basic but yeah like you don't really need to think about it as the something on the side. It can be like this clippy asking you things if you want to. You can like have this **[50:46]** little have this little playgrounds. You can pin it. You can pin it down and it still works like Yeah. What is it about? All right. So, it really depends how how you are work. Yeah, of course. Uh I didn't connect it to the to the service because probably my uh this subscription is already out because you need to provide the API key. But the idea is you are not uh forced to have the UI that the CK editor offers out of **[51:17]** the box. You are able to customize it into your application and basically allow people to use the AI really iteratively and slowly get up to speed. >> Sounds good. Sounds good. So uh great features. So if people want to try that, if developers listening or developer advocate to go and seek editor.com and I assume everything's there with the docs and tutorial and and like code demo on how to use that and how to get started. >> Yeah, like the the first thing that I'm **[51:48]** always uh sending people to. If you already know the seek editor rich text, just go and explore it for free. So just sign it with GitHub and you're you can play with that. Or if you just want to have a look and feel, there are many demos, let's say like 15. And these are the different configuration of the same component. So if you have the CK editor subscription, you basically have all of these and much more. These are just the just the uh different setups. So if you **[52:18]** take take a look to the CK editor AI, it will load and you can play uh with the CK editor itself as you uh saw me playing with that with this document about mind-blowing AI facts or you can paste your own document. Right? >> Sounds good. Awesome. So yeah, thanks for the demo. Uh that was enlightening. Hopefully it was useful for people listening to us. Any last word about developer relation **[52:50]** about yourself about CK editor because we are reaching the end of the show. >> Yeah, I'm thinking what what would be the most important thing uh like yeah if you don't know what the developer relations are. Yeah, just take a look at it. uh it's a great uh part of the software engineering and yeah I can't really recommend anything else for the people who are already technical but wants to get closer to the technical audience and be in touch with these **[53:22]** technologies and basically and what I like this is what I like the most basically learn without any without any uh like boring stuff because you can just ask people you can just get to this devil shows and uh basically get the knowledge out of uh basically get the knowledge for free, right? And without any work or that much of the work that you should be doing if you're doing it yourself. >> Awesome. So, uh thanks for your time, Andre. Thanks for being a guest on the **[53:53]** show. I appreciate that. Thanks for people watch us live. Uh you were a little bit silent today. No questions, no comment. Feel free to always say hi. Even if you don't have anything else to say, I love that. Uh but thanks for joining us. Thanks for people who will watch the recording. You're as important as the people who join us who join us live. So on that note, uh see you for the next episode. As I said at the beginning, not in two weeks because I'm going to be at an event. So the next episode is going to be December 11. So, **[54:25]** in a little less than a month, that's going to be the next episode of the DO show and the last episode, not of the Dro Show, but the last episode of this year because I have so many more amazing guests for the next year and the year after that going to come on the show. So, I wish everybody a good rest of the day or good rest of the week. It's nearly the weekend. Keep up. You still have like a day, day and a half left and it's going to be a weekend, folks. Uh, have fun. Stay safe and see you in about **[54:57]** a month for the next ever show. Bye everyone. >> Thanks for having me. Bye Fred. Bye everyone.