# Knowbility's Accessibility Internet Rally (AIR)  ## Episode metadata - Episode title: Knowbility's Accessibility Internet Rally (AIR) - Show: Accessibility Craft - Owner / Host: Amber Hinds, Chris Hinds, and Steve Jones - Episode publish date: 2023-08-21 - Episode AI description: Panel of guest speakers discuss the Accessibility Internet Rally (AIR), including its history and role in creating an inclusive digital world. They cover the importance of sponsors and website accessibility maintenance, share experiences and motivations of participants, delve into different roles and responsibilities, highlight positive experiences and a supportive community, discuss training and resources for accessibility, and address challenges of managing expectations. - Duration: 01:17:06 - Episode URL: [Open in Snipd](https://share.snipd.com/episode/cb992e4e-dbc0-4ef5-9344-537b4a74b8ca) - Show URL: [Open in Snipd](https://share.snipd.com/show/76b1dbe3-3402-4930-9cb9-951b31daf3b9) - Export date: 2026-02-17T23:34:03 ## Snips ### [Accessibility as Inclusion](https://share.snipd.com/snip/78602781-8b34-4a39-ac66-38bbbab0ba96) 🎧 05:40 - 06:26 (00:46) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/066c358b-a1ad-4aa5-8b9a-e2a97cbe1501" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - Accessibility means inclusion, ensuring everyone experiences content equally online. - Nobility focuses on this as a creative challenge rather than just legal compliance. #### 💬 Quote > We tend to approach this as a creative challenge. And that accessibility means inclusion, right? That you want everyone to be able to have the same experience as online. > — Sharon Rush Sharon Rush on Nobility's approach to accessibility #### 📚 Transcript lot of thunder and lightning around the legal mandates. And we respect that and value that and we're glad that those laws are in place. But for nobility, we tend to approach this as a creative challenge. And that accessibility means inclusion, right? That you want everyone to be able to have the same experience as online and to be able to get the same information. So we base a lot of what we do on the four principles that are outlined in the WCAG guidelines. And this little illustration that's here is sort of a cartoon illustration of those principles --- ### [Keep Project Scope Manageable](https://share.snipd.com/snip/4293712e-dbe2-476e-8d1e-e84cc51b7bf2) 🎧 10:55 - 16:16 (05:21) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/89f91b37-a1d6-4c0a-8dec-5a79b182ab50" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - Teams should keep project scopes small to meet AIR's 8-week timeline. - Smaller nonprofits are ideal to avoid overwhelming participants and ensure project success. #### 💬 Quote > We really encourage the nonprofits who participate to have a limited scope because we only have eight weeks to do this design. > — Sharon Rush Sharon Rush on nonprofit project scope for AIR #### 📚 Transcript here in Austin, we have AMD, we have Dell, we have Samsung, we have IBM. So, those teams will often come together. They already know each other, they work together and they want to learn more about accessibility together and they sign on as a team. But we also encourage individual developers and designers who maybe want to know more about accessibility, don't have a company team or their company may not support their participation necessarily so explicitly. So, you can sign up also as an individual. And then our challenge is to find these different roles that make up an ideal team and put these teams together. The people who signed up as individuals and put them together in a team. We try to be mindful of time zones and not have people from different parts of the globe on the same team. But sometimes it doesn't, this one story just kills me that because these people knew each other. Some of them work for IBM, one of them work for Google. They were in New York, London, I think one was in India, one was in Australia and they designed a website for a for a public radio station in Nairobi. So, it was a pretty eclectic team. They didn't win but they really won my heart. I just thought they were wonderful. We have trainers. So, part of the air process is that as you sign up and you commit your volunteer time for these eight weeks, you receive some pretty valuable training. People like Becky Gibson, Nick Steenout, really highly respected practitioners and trainers will do a series of trainings. All of the trainings are done over Zoom. They're recorded and if you can't make it during the time because we do have people participating from all around the globe, it's hard to find a time when everybody can be there. So, they're all recorded and they're available for you to come back and visit anytime during the contest. Visibility testers, one of the things that Nurbility Main Paints is a panel. We have about 1,000 people with disabilities of all kinds that are our user testers and we make that panel available to companies who want to do live usability testing with real people with real disabilities. And we make that panel available also to the teams so that as they're doing their work, if they want to get some input from users with disabilities, that that's an opportunity that's available to the judges, of course, who are going to judge site, Nurbility staff, did I leave out the mentors? Oh, Marianne, did I leave out the mentors? I did because each team also gets a mentor assigned to them and that's someone with the expertise and experience in accessibility who's assigned to your team to help you as you come to these crossroads and make decisions and Marianne's going to tell you a lot more about what it means to be a mentor. So we've got registrations open now. So if you go to the air site, if you go to nobility.org and you'll see lots of stuff about air on the site, the registrations open now through August 30th. And then starting the week of August 15th, if you sign up early, there's some trainings that are that start that week. And it continues on through the first week of September, but it's a great opportunity if you sign up early to go to those trainings live because then you have a lot of opportunity to interact with the trainers that I spoke about. On September 7th, we have what we call the kickoff. And that's when the teams from whatever company or however we've put these independent teams together are matched and they meet their nonprofit organization and they meet their mentor and they get to start. It's like, okay, this is the starting line, the starting gun, the starting flag, ready go. And you get matched up to your team and you get started on doing the design. On October 12th, we have what we call the checkpoint. So we have this sort of a social event. When we started, of course, it was Air Austin and it was very localized. Everybody was in Austin. We came together quite a bit. There was quite a bit of beer drinking and hoo-wrying and talking and sharing of information. And we missed that when we all went virtual during COVID. And we kept the virtual component after COVID because it really does make this a global experience. But we missed the part where we all got to just get together and chat. So we have this rally checkpoint on October 12th where people can kind of compare notes, talk, issue challenges, whatever. And then on November 12th, it's the final countdown where we really do count down the clock up to the --- ### [Multiple Roles for All Skill Levels](https://share.snipd.com/snip/2be1434c-c2d7-40cf-a3b3-17ec77b89724) 🎧 20:38 - 24:33 (03:55) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/e658b090-bddf-44bc-b48c-e62b31343445" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - Don't worry about being overly technical to join AIR. - Roles include content, design, development, liaison, and QA, allowing diverse skillsets on teams. #### 💬 Quote > You don't have to be technical. There is a nice role for everybody. We had somebody that ended up being a liaison with the non-profit. > — Adrienne Grace Adrienne Grace explaining AIR team roles and skills #### 📚 Transcript contest. And that's when I decided to sign up. I like Adrian. I didn't know anyone. I would sign up specifically to be a mentor because I guess I really like being a mentor. I love teaching. I think I love giving back to the community. And honestly, I think it's one of the best ways for me to learn is to get that different perspective from a new person's eyes. So I specifically signed up to be a mentor for those reasons. Didn't have a team in mind, but I was so glad to be paired up with Adrian and the rest of the team. Yeah, we had a good team. Nice. And can you explain more about what do you do during air? What's the time commitment? What's the instructor of the project? What are the steps that you have to follow? I know Sharon gave us a timeline of the deliverables. But how was it from your experience as both a team member or a mentor? Well, as a team member, yeah, we did all meet at the kickoff meeting and our information was shared because we were paired up and made into a team by a nobility. So we did not know each other. And I know they tried to kind of put different people's skills together. And I don't know if Sharon, you're going to talk about, I can see Marcia's question here in the Q&A about whether or not you have to be technical. But I would tell you know, you don't have to be technical. There is a nice role for everybody. We had somebody that ended up being a liaison with the non-profit. So that the non-profit didn't become bombarded with constant questions from, you know, five or six people. We had somebody that was really dedicated to the user content and analyzing and writing it. And that was really, I think, a great experience because their site had grown over time. And to really consolidate and really make great user content, we had somebody who was a designer specifically and made a whole style guide for us to follow. And then when we did have somebody that was also did the development did the hardcore coding. And then a few of us did user testing. And of course we have MJ who came in and answered all our questions. And then we moved to lead. So yeah. Andrew and those are team lead and keeping us on track We also met about like once a week, generally we had a standing meeting. Occasionally individuals would meet up together if they had to, for example, meet with our client or just meet together to like talk about some specific work that someone was doing. But we did have weekly meetings and generally the commitment was about two hours per week. But of course, as deadlines, depending on what your role was, like if you're a designer or content writer, you might have a heavier load earlier in the program. Developers in QA were busier towards the end of the program. Nice. And then going off of that tangent, what do you learn as a designer, a developer or a team lead or a mentor? We can start off with you, Adrian. This episode of accessibility craft is sponsored by equalized digital accessibility checker. The WordPress plugin that helps you find accessibility problems before you hit publish. A WordPress native tool accessibility --- ### [Communicate Availability Early](https://share.snipd.com/snip/18837b36-cf9e-46a2-87a8-703a2219463a) 🎧 30:40 - 33:00 (02:20) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/cc7a74ab-10c1-4a24-93e7-0ce74e52ac88" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - Be upfront about your availability at the start of AIR to help with team planning. - Teams self-manage time, so clear communication ensures balanced workload and successful collaboration. #### 💬 Quote > You have to be upfront at the beginning as much as you possibly can, that you have these time constraints. > — Sharon Rush Sharon Rush advising on managing time commitments in AIR #### 📚 Transcript manage. And I think that's where someone in Adrian's role, who's the team lead, might set expectations at the beginning or define it. How did you manage that Adrian? Did you have people with similar situations? Yeah, we did. And the person that had the least flexible amount of time had the most commitments, she ended up actually being the perfect person to be the liaison with the client, because the hours that she was available happened to also match when the client was available. So that was actually a really great win-win right there. And as MJ kind of indicated, there are peak periods if you're doing design, that's going to be much more upfront, as is the content analysis and writing, the building sort of, you know, in the middle with the testing, and that kind of goes through the end. So there were maybe, you know, a week or maybe even two weeks where somebody might have a bigger time commitment, but then, you know, after that, then it's much more in a supportive role. I would say, you know, that work that out probably with your team members upfront and just be honest about, hey, I can work X, Y, or Z evenings or a weekend, if you're, you know, if you're a student, we had one woman that was a new mom. And so she would, you know, maybe be off camera during our meetings. And but often I know work at night or early in the morning, because that was what time was great for her. And that's kind of a nice part about being a fully remote team. Yeah, so there's a flexibility depending on when people are available and how much they're available. That's good to hear. And then I just want to segue us into. Before you go on, can I just address that fact about being very upfront at the beginning as much as you possibly can, that when you first meet the team at that kickoff event, that you tell your team captain or your mentor or whoever is your central organizer, that it's that you have these time constraints. Because if, if, --- ### [Transparent Judging Process](https://share.snipd.com/snip/2f9906c4-b5c0-40d0-9b6d-40eff07bd267) 🎧 36:00 - 39:39 (03:39) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/ad3e1be7-4ade-492d-9215-7b12c0d06e77" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - AIR uses an open book judging form shared upfront with teams. - Teams submit 6-10 URL pages scored on WCAG criteria, accessibility extras, and penalties for late or incomplete submission. #### 💬 Quote > You do get a copy of the judging form well in advance. The sites are judged on accessibility criteria, and there are penalties for late submission. > — MJ Jawali MJ Jawali explaining the AIR judging process #### 📚 Transcript going off of that, so how are the teams evaluated? I know this happens at the end of the process. And I think MJ, you are part of that, you are part of that as a mentor. So can you explain that a little bit? Sure. So as Sharon was mentioning, there is a it's an open book test. You do get a copy of the judging form well in advance. So the team, the teams are well aware of what they're going to be graded on. And as a mentor, I go over the criteria and the entire judging form with the team like throughout. And we review it even especially at the end because I think, Adrian, you had to write a little blurb. As our team lead, you had to write a little blurb, basic information for the judges. So yeah, the judging form includes up to 10 different URLs of pages that the team feels confident will do well in the contest. You can very well create more than 10 pages of the team, but 6 to 10 pages are actually evaluated only. And then there's a whole list of success, usually there's a whole list of accessibility criteria that the pages are evaluated on, things from like text contrast, keyword. But there's a little stuff that doesn't fall into WCAG, so web content accessibility guidelines, such as having the nobility logo that's required in your design. There's also things you can do for extra credit, like aesthetics, exemplary effort, and some advanced things that the team can do that need to be accessible if you're going to do that such as data table, video, audio. And then there are penalties, and I don't know if we got any penalties, but penalties include late submission or not doing at least 6 pages and getting that submitted for review. So I hope that answers the question, Paula, about the judging form. Yeah, and... With us, you're audio. Oh, I think you're muted, Paula. Oh, I'm sorry, my cat muted me. And Adrian, how do you feel about being evaluated? Do you feel like you were just like, Carly on your work or that you feel just how do you feel the whole time? Oh, I felt like it was, you know, as she said, it's an open book cast. And it's really nice to have those sort of those guidelines up front and, you know, how many pages you know that you need that, the ability logo, those are small things, but it really is, of course aimed around the WCAG guidelines. And those are all the things that you need to keep in mind. And to be able to go through at different points and just make sure, hey, are we on task for this? Are we going to include this? Okay, we're not doing, you know, video or audio, so we don't need to worry about that. And then each person adding their, like MJ said, I had to write up a bit for the judges as well about our individual experiences and us collectively. So getting input from everybody about their experience is the --- ### [Fee Ensures Commitment](https://share.snipd.com/snip/dd82201f-8077-4e1f-99a4-6f83b03d9de2) 🎧 40:50 - 42:50 (02:00) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/0c10ae13-c8e3-4333-b1df-42c818a6b322" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - AIR charges a nominal fee to ensure commitment and reduce dropouts. - Scholarships exist for those who cannot afford fees, supporting inclusion and participation. #### 💬 Quote > People don't take it seriously if it doesn't cost something. We have scholarships for nonprofits and individuals who need them. > — Sharon Rush Sharon Rush on AIR participation fees and scholarships #### 📚 Transcript And I did want to answer, I saw some question of someone who said, I'm so confused, is there a fee to participate? And the answer is yes, there is a fee to participate. It's we think it's a pretty modest fee. It's like $25 a person. But what happened when we started, we didn't charge anybody anything. And here we are in Capitalist America. People don't take it seriously if it doesn't cost something. And so they just wouldn't show up or they just drop out of their team or even the non-profits sometimes would just stop coming to the meetings. So we after a couple of years, we said, okay, I think we're going to have to charge and we have charged ever since. And that problem has seriously diminished. We do have, I mean, if you're like someone who spoke here who said, I'm a student, maybe I can't even afford the $25 I'm living on ramen. Then, of course, we can, we'll look at scholarships. We have scholarships for some of the nonprofit groups, especially after COVID, so many nonprofits work it so hard. And their fee to participate is $150. So if you know a nonprofit, maybe a small community group and even the 150 is too much for them, we do have scholarship applications. But we're going to grill you pretty hard to make sure that you're really going to show up and you're really going to participate because people rely on you. You know, it's not like the client has a serious responsibility too. And if your client isn't there giving you the materials you need and giving you the feedback you need, you can be the best team in the world and not be able to make the progress that you want. So we do ask for those what we think are nominal fees in order for people to really demonstrate commitment to the program. Yeah, thank you, Sharon. I'm going to answer --- ### [Live Training Not Mandatory](https://share.snipd.com/snip/c413c3eb-19b6-4f31-95c7-da12c055e8f9) 🎧 49:20 - 49:57 (00:37) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/23d0dc2b-63ba-4e31-be3f-4646d82ae0b7" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - Missing live AIR training means losing interactive experience but recordings remain accessible. - Participants can still learn from training videos and materials anytime during the contest. #### 💬 Quote > If you can't come live, you can see the recording and have access to all the archives and materials. > — Sharon Rush Sharon Rush on AIR training attendance flexibility #### 📚 Transcript 5th? Would that prevent them from participating? No, because all the, all that would prevent them from is having the live experience. I mean, even though they're all on zoom, the trainings are very interactive. Becky and Nick are both just such great, great teachers. And so the training tends to be really interactive and you can get good questions answered if you can come live. But if not, you can see the recording and you have access to all the archives and the material links and all the --- ### [Blind Participant Cheating Misconception](https://share.snipd.com/snip/07d7d19e-e776-4283-b484-49209ac0ae0a) 🎧 55:16 - 56:53 (01:37) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/6d258426-0948-44e7-a242-73ebd0b1d69d" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - A blind participant was once accused of cheating for their involvement in a team. - A judge affirmed that including people with disabilities is actually smart, not cheating. #### 💬 Quote > I want to report that this team over here is cheating. [...] How are they cheating? They have a blind person on their team. [...] That's not cheating. That's being smart. > — Sharon Rush Sharon Rush sharing a story about a blind participant #### 📚 Transcript of surprised me, but but some people, you know, had other other ways they wanted to work. So not everybody did use the base camp, but we do make a base camp available to every team for free, of course. Do you want me to ask these questions? Do you want to ask the questions that have been coming in? Yeah, go ahead, Amber. Yeah. Okay, sure. So Sherry said, I'm totally blind and I just got my CPAC. I'm currently trying to find a career as a manual tester. Would this be a good idea for me to do? Uh, well, I can't think of any reason why not. I think it would be a great experience. And I think the people on your team would be really glad to have you on your on their team. I, uh, uh, one year, and this isn't when we were still doing it in person. So in the early years, we all came to this training center and all the coding happened in one day. I mean, those were very simple websites that we were that we were building. Like a hackathon. Yeah, it was like a hackathon, except I don't think there was even the word hack in the word hack about that. But so one, one year, and it was either two or three, year, two or three, and the judges had their room. The judges sat in the room and they would answer questions during the day. Anybody could come in and ask the judges anything they wanted. And so this one guy comes storming in and he said, I want to report that this team over here is cheating. And we all just kind of went really? What are they doing? How are they cheating? They have --- ### [WordPress Dominates AIR Sites](https://share.snipd.com/snip/0994e904-3e08-49a3-9cbc-44bf3bc5da4e) 🎧 01:00:10 - 01:02:20 (02:10) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/517753da-9c53-4580-bd9c-e5a09e23fb64" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - WordPress is now the dominant platform for AIR-built sites, favored for ease of maintenance. - Some platforms like Squarespace are avoided due to accessibility challenges and heavy code requirements. #### 💬 Quote > It's like 80% of the websites are built with WordPress. Squarespace just is not an accessible platform. > — Sharon Rush Sharon Rush on preferred platforms for AIR projects #### 📚 Transcript they do maintain it over time. Yeah, I think that that kind of leads to the question that made me decide to pop in an inter-emptial fabulous conversation. But circling a little bit back to you, I know they're not all built with WordPress, but you said a lot are and of course, as being a WordPress meetup, I'm curious if you have like do you provide a recommended starter theme or like plug-in set that you that teams can can use and if so, could you share some background on that? Because I think that sort of falls under this too like maintaining accessibility is having a good tool set for it. Right. Yeah, well, that's part of the training. That's part of the training that they that they receive when they when they go through it. There is a specific training for the nonprofits that say if you if your team has chosen WordPress, here are the here are the maintenance tools. For the developers themselves, we have a pretty broad library of tools that we recommend. They're not they're not exclusive to WordPress, but I'll tell you it's just happened. It's like 80% of the websites. It's it's way more than half of the websites now are built with WordPress. And so we're getting I think more and more that that tool set is becoming more and more the default just because of the way. It's so it's very easy for nonprofits to maintain. We do have nonprofits who've come to us with Squarespace sites and want us to just improve the accessibility. And we have to say, no, I'm sorry, we can't because they're the accessibility features are just too hard. There's too much coding that your developers would have to do to. I mean, Squarespace just is not an accessible platform. And and so we do we do have to kind of we try to deal with that at the registration time though, when the when the non-profits --- ### [Sign Up As Team or Individual](https://share.snipd.com/snip/110205d2-4d9d-43b2-b0eb-817653867c22) 🎧 01:03:20 - 01:05:05 (01:45) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/f5f29403-1ca7-4e9c-a540-0ab452d7304f" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - Registration can be done as a company team or individuals forming independent teams. - Signing up as a team reduces matchmaking issues and promotes smoother collaboration. #### 💬 Quote > You can register as a team... Usually the people who sign up as a team are companies. But six people can put themselves together and sign up as a team. > — Sharon Rush Sharon Rush on registration options for AIR participation #### 📚 Transcript paid theme. But but we we only recommend free tools that's free and open source tools because just because of the nature of what we're doing and. Yeah, I know at this meetup in general, we get a lot of questions from attendees about like, what's a good team? What's good point? So if you had a list, I know people would definitely appreciate what are ones that nobility says are good starting points. Okay, you bet. I'll share that with the slides. Yeah. Sharon asked, do team sign up individually with each individual advising that they want to be on said team? And they said we'd have to have a team name for you going in. But I think I saw in the registration form, you can register as a team. Is that correct? That's correct. You could register as a team. And the the team fee is just the same as it would be if it was individuals. It's $150 and teams are generally six people. So so yeah, you can you can just sign up entirely as a team. Usually the people who sign up as a team are companies. You know that I mentioned the marketing firm that signed on as a team. A couple of banks have signed on Dell last year. Dell had five or six teams. I don't know. They had a bunch of teams last year. Microsoft people do sign on as as teams. And then they're usually companies, but there's no reason that six independent people couldn't put themselves together and call themselves, you know, the air rangers or whatever they wanted their name to be and and sign on as a team. And and then that --- ### [Independent Team Beats Company Giants](https://share.snipd.com/snip/54bc8aa3-37d6-4f71-85ce-029bb2ec381e) 🎧 01:14:00 - 01:15:50 (01:50) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/db140418-f28f-4e47-b1cf-3d051391c67f" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - Independent teams often outperform company teams in AIR due to passion and client focus. - Adrienne's team won second place despite competing against big-name company groups. #### 💬 Quote > Last year the teams that won first and second were both independent teams. I was intimidated at first but focused on the client needs. > — Adrienne Grace Adrienne Grace recalling AIR competition experience #### 📚 Transcript the individual participants did so so that's a big that's that's a great point Adrienne I didn't see any of the questions did we get all the questions you had Paula? Yeah I think we answered all the questions so if we have any closing thoughts before we sign off Sharon, Adrienne, or MJ? And also maybe just remind everyone how they could follow up with you if there's a social media or some other preferred way to getting contact with you if they have questions each one of you. Well there's yeah there's air I'm going to put this in the chat air at nobility.org is a really that's monitored by about three or four of us so somebody will answer you very quickly. And what about you Adrienne and MJ a good way to get a hold of you if anyone wanted to follow up or find you on social media? You can contact me our website is vnbcreative.com or I'm on twitter at at I'll put both of these in the chat and I'm at at Adrienne underscore grace underscore OC. So apparently there are a lot of valetering graces out there. Yes and for me I have put my email address it's mj at mjoweley.com or you can find me on LinkedIn username mjoweley. Great well thank you so much we really appreciate you all coming and sharing this about air I know I keep thinking --- Created with [Snipd](https://www.snipd.com) | Highlight & Take Notes from Podcasts