# Episode 78: University Open Source Engagement  ## Episode metadata - Episode title: Episode 78: University Open Source Engagement - Show: CHAOSScast - Owner / Host: CHAOSS Project - Guests: [Sayeed Choudhury](https://share.snipd.com/person/3862b6d2-5418-4885-8797-70f3047b8808), [Zach Chandler](https://share.snipd.com/person/7cb3f22c-73d0-4052-87a8-c7e1c6858925), [Clare Dillon](https://share.snipd.com/person/d3dd7c0b-a152-4166-8575-85c4c66504d8), [Allison Kittinger](https://share.snipd.com/person/3983778d-e1a1-44e7-bfc5-87b309c51a51) - Episode publish date: 2024-01-30 - Episode AI description: Join the panelists from various universities as they discuss the relationship between open source software and university missions, the role of libraries in supporting OSS, and the collaborative culture fostering community and innovation. They explore the challenges and promises of developing universities OSPOs and highlight the potential of OSS in enhancing educational experiences and research output. - Duration: 40:29 - Episode URL: [Open in Snipd](https://share.snipd.com/episode/a9577077-fcd0-4b1d-8d53-a925e111c131) - Show URL: [Open in Snipd](https://share.snipd.com/show/53d35173-57a3-4157-8040-c3e76d6df197) - Export date: 2026-02-17T23:32:21 ## Snips ### [Universities Value Open Source Mission](https://share.snipd.com/snip/8bd0e98f-1cdb-44ef-ba8e-9ca059486911) 🎧 01:49 - 03:07 (01:18) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/2aeee1a4-49a1-4150-895d-7f8da457f8d5" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - Universities view open source software as integral to their mission for research and education. - OSS serves as a research output and enhances student learning opportunities through community engagement. #### 💬 Quote > open source software helps the university meet its mission, whether that's the research, the education, in particular the dissemination or translation type of functions of the university > — Sayeed Choudhury Sayeed Choudhury on why universities care about open source software #### 📚 Transcript Why does your university care about open source software? So it's a good question. What's interesting in the question is the assumption is that the university does care about open source software, but I think that's a fair assumption. I'll say in the case of Carnegie Mellon, there's an institutional perspective on this and then individual one. From an institutional perspective, I think it's fair to say open source software helps the university meet its mission, whether that's the research, the education, in particular the dissemination or translation type of functions of the university. We're finding that open source software is a great way to showcase the work that's happening in Carnegie Mellon, getting it out beyond the walls of Carnegie Mellon, certainly within the institution as well. I would say on an individual basis, the faculty increasingly think of open source software as a primary research object unto itself. So we typically talk about papers, data, increasingly hardware, but open source software is one of those major research outputs. And the students certainly see it as an important part of their education, experience and opportunities to learn and interact with other students, private companies, so on. Based in the libraries, I'll say that it's a key part of the overall open science program. --- ### [Support Open Source via Libraries](https://share.snipd.com/snip/4ad29be5-247f-44d7-8604-533b7f06b39f) 🎧 08:05 - 09:53 (01:48) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/fd19f28e-3b87-4d76-87f0-30592ab7a01e" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - Establish designated roles or offices for open source support in universities to foster intentional growth. - Collaborate with libraries and librarians who have experience with scholarly publishing and open access. #### 💬 Quote > maybe it's expanding beyond that capacity of someone who's a librarian, maybe a subject librarian or a scholarly communications librarian, and maybe universities will eventually need an open source librarian or an open source program office to really sort of give that support a home > — Allison Kittinger Allison Kittinger on the library's role in open source support #### 📚 Transcript Thanks, everyone. I have a follow up question. Something that has been on my mind for a while, and I don't think I personally have a great answer, is what is the relationship with universities' engagement with open source and libraries? This seems to be a really historical relationship, and it's always been a little unclear to me, and I'd love any insight on that. And if I can talk as a librarian or a former one, I see a lot of, as I mentioned before, sort of analogies between open source and things that are already happening in libraries, like scholarly publishing, digital scholarship, public humanities, things like that. And I think that sort of through supporting those things, librarians are naturally supporting open source software. A lot of universities don't necessarily have an open source librarian, but I think a lot of them are sort of picking up that information and trying to support their faculty to the best of their ability. With your scholarly communications librarian, you might be familiar with a lot of the open publishing licenses, and then maybe someone comes to you with a question about software publishing, and then you familiarize yourself with software licenses. And sometimes, and I think this is happening now, you know, open source is becoming such an imperative part of open science that maybe it's expanding beyond that capacity of someone who's a librarian, maybe a subject librarian or a scholarly communications librarian, and maybe universities will eventually need an open source librarian or an open source program office to really sort of give that support a home and make it something that's intentional. That's actually how my scholarly communications job came about. It's like a lot of the subject librarians were already --- ### [Libraries' Neutral Role in OSS](https://share.snipd.com/snip/3fd98a4b-3283-40c6-a269-48e3cd857f0d) 🎧 10:46 - 12:08 (01:21) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/20d88cc3-584a-4096-b509-7d99c5faba0c" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - Libraries offer neutrality and curation crucial for open scholarship and software management. - Open source software curation helps identify and improve software quality within universities. #### 💬 Quote > libraries’ neutrality and... a curation function that's very important... to be honest, one of the questions is how much curation is necessary for open source software > — Sayeed Choudhury Sayeed Choudhury on the importance of libraries in open source management #### 📚 Transcript Yeah, I just plus one to everything Alton just said. And if I can sort of reinforce in some cases and maybe build upon others, one thing about libraries, particularly within the university context is they are a neutral entity, so they don't speak. So when you think about something like open scholarship, which ideally should permeate every division, college school or aspect of the university, it's a little difficult to say the engineering school is going to own that or the school design is going to own that because then there's somewhat of an anchoring effect. And it becomes, oh, that's engineering. Division cares about open scholarship. I don't want to worry about it. Whereas if it's in the libraries, there's an easier case in my opinion to say this is a cross cutting institutional type of activity. So I think that's why a lot of open scholarship with the nice programs is very clear alignment if you will with the library. The other thing I'll say is the library has a curation function that's very important. So whether that's paper versus data software or any kind of artifact, to be honest, one of the questions is how much curation is necessary for open source software. One of the most provocative statements I heard early on in my journey was when Stephen Walling asked where he said, we don't need more software. We have more than enough software. We just need to know which of those software are in what state and how to basically improve the state --- ### [Creating OSS Policy Framework](https://share.snipd.com/snip/2fcb45b3-1c54-43fd-a7fc-38c7aa7dc11a) 🎧 13:59 - 15:00 (01:00) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/f48e80ee-af31-4cd0-b99b-8f9b87ad79d1" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - Clare Dillon is developing an open source policy framework for Irish universities. - The project involves engaging diverse stakeholders including developers, tech transfer offices, and librarians. #### 💬 Quote > One of the projects we're working on is about trying to actually create framework for open source policy for Irish University > — Clare Dillon Clare Dillon describing her current work on open source policy #### 📚 Transcript This morning, I mentioned that Liro's Ospo, some of the work there has been inspired by our National Open Research Forum. And one of the projects we're working on in the context of that is about trying to actually create framework for open source policy for Irish University. So it's basically to help folks that may not have an open source policy, understand what they may want to address in that and to give them some examples of what's happening elsewhere in the world around that. So I spent the first half of the day looking at that and looking at international examples of open source policies. And we were talking about how to bring together the various stakeholders in Irish universities to get input into that to see what would be relevant in our context and the Irish context based on how we were doing that. So it's the kind of project that is really interesting because the goal is to actually bring in different voices, not just folks that might be software developers, but perhaps also individuals who might work in the technology transfer offices and universities, those folks that may know more about their IP strategy. --- ### [Building University OSS Community](https://share.snipd.com/snip/7d54a650-d0de-48e9-b450-45b70d5cdc05) 🎧 20:38 - 22:25 (01:47) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/6f58b75f-73f9-4cc0-ae9e-3bfdbe3479b9" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - Sayeed Choudhury's role is to convene a university open source community and act as a knowledge clearinghouse. - They review curriculum to identify where open source software is used, supporting community building. #### 💬 Quote > We call ourselves a community convener and a center of competency... a one stop shop, so to speak > — Sayeed Choudhury Sayeed Choudhury on his role in growing the open source community at Carnegie Mellon #### 📚 Transcript People are referring others to the hospital or talking about the hospital in good ways. I mean, I'm aware of the good ways, talking about the hospital in good ways without me or our community manager feedback and I think that's kind of a nice and flexion point. This is great. As somebody who has done personally a lot of community building around the chaos project for seven years, people are difficult. Community building is very hard. Do you look at the work that you're doing as building community within your respective universities and maybe you could talk a little bit about that. I think you've all alluded to this but definitely speak to that. I'll jump in by saying there are no difficult people in car, you know, I'm not. I don't know what you're talking about. But in case I'm wrong, definitely a key part of the message about the hospital has been we call ourselves a community convener and a center of competency to Zach's point. There are people here who know much more about software than I do. So I'm not going to walk into every room saying, hey, I'm the open source expert. But if one thinks about the breadth issues and everyone's alluded to that that anyone might be thinking about or not thinking about working with open source, that's a key way to sort of say we can be a clearing house for information and resources and context and networking. We can help students identify internship opportunities or courses. Compuse is our community manager. He's done a review of the curriculum, where it's open source be used in the classroom. So we definitely are trying to position ourselves as the one stop shop, so to speak. If you're focused on open source at a high level and a specific kind of need, whatever is the hospital, the place where you become and start answering those questions. I think that's a really important role. It's difficult one to do in a university context. But I think it's a critical --- ### [Focus OSS Efforts Strategically](https://share.snipd.com/snip/d7f14ad9-beb6-45bf-8c53-c7d64cb41c95) 🎧 29:53 - 30:47 (00:54) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/2e7f4036-ad5e-4d49-876c-94a0b7428668" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - Avoid trying to do everything at once in university OSS programs. - Focus on key priorities aligned with community needs and allow growth to happen organically. #### 💬 Quote > For the sustainability of the project, you have to sort of... get to pace yourself there and try to focus on some maybe key things > — Allison Kittinger Allison Kittinger advising on managing scope in OSS program development #### 📚 Transcript And you see so many directions you can go in and so many amazing projects that are already happening. And it's like, yeah, like I want to be everything all the time to everyone because this is so amazing. And I think for the sustainability of the project, you have to sort of, and get to pace yourself there and try to focus on some maybe key things that you can do that might even achieve the goals in a different way that you're thinking about more long term. But yeah, it's like a self-imposed like scope creep out of excitement, maybe not going too broad too quickly and really trying to zero in on what your community specifically is interested in and what they need and how you can provide that. And maybe as we talked about the university sort of an organism or a garden, maybe some of those other things you're interested in doing will grow organically from what you start with. --- ### [Open Source Reaches Diverse Roles](https://share.snipd.com/snip/6e95dc3b-c79c-4e89-a1e6-1051bbfbc7d2) 🎧 31:30 - 32:59 (01:29) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/f04f303d-dc47-4d71-a6ce-6131924635be" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - Open source impacts a broader audience beyond developers including legal and tech transfer staff. - Tailoring communication to diverse university roles is essential for broader engagement. #### 💬 Quote > open source is bigger than software or the impact is bigger than software... it really points to that potential impact for society > — Clare Dillon Clare Dillon on the wide-reaching effect of open source in academic communities #### 📚 Transcript Ireland is about this idea of being able to reach people who you didn't traditionally think were like into open source or are concerned about open source. But it turns out they are and they care like folks in the technology transfer office, for example, who again are not developers, but are keen to get involved because they see this as a growing momentum in general that they have to be able to support as well within their university context. Now that's then both that opportunity and it's a wonderful thing because it's a game that you're starting to be able to talk to these people. But the challenge that comes with that is that a lot of the stuff that's out there today around open source is aimed at a techy audience, like it's aimed at developers. And sometimes you have to translate these things for an audience who hasn't got that background. And that's challenging. That is another shiny thing that we don't work on because you see the potential of you can understand why people are getting excited about it and the potential for open source. And they're like, how can I learn more? And you're like, well, you can look at and then you go, oh, no, you can't really look at that because that wouldn't speak to you. And you can look, no, no, that's going to speak to a different audience. It's probably not going to resonate. And then you're like, oh, no, that's all going to, like, assume that you've got all this background knowledge about how to contribute to Git Hub and blah, blah, blah. So in some respects, there's lots of opportunity and excitement and people wanting to learn. And the job of work seems enormous, actually, for all of us in terms of helping to spread this idea and the value of open source and how to do it right beyond maybe the usual suspects of folks that would have a particular type of background. --- ### [Unexpected OSS Licensing Challenge](https://share.snipd.com/snip/c36ea70f-4e79-4ac5-8082-5e6e68d94835) 🎧 33:04 - 35:40 (02:35) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/89341890-a339-4dfc-89fe-ad3138bc7440" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - Sayeed experienced a dean urgently seeking clear guidance on OSS licensing. - The encounter highlighted challenges in providing definitive OSS advice within universities. #### 💬 Quote > I want to be able to go back to him and say... this is the recommendation I have > — Sayeed Choudhury Sayeed Choudhury sharing an encounter with a university dean about open source licensing #### 📚 Transcript Yeah, I think I alluded to earlier that one of the gains I feel we have at CMU is that people are beginning to think about the hospital as that one stop, sort of shop or open source. And maybe just going a little deeper on that. One of the questions or maybe even metrics I look at in a lot of the work we're doing is are we able to persuade an individual, back to member student, administrator, take your pick, to think about a facet of open source that they hadn't thought about before. And then a positive way that it's actually made their work better or advancing with their goals and so on. It just governance is one that comes to mind in several conversations I've had where faculty or students would say, we have this project and we want it to grow. And some multiclars point, an assumption sometimes is I just need another software developer. Well, actually, maybe not. Maybe what you need is other people working instead of you taking another software developer, other grad students saying, you're going to do this now. So are we having more of those kinds of conversations or somebody says, I never thought about that before, but it's really important I do and thank you for helping. Unexpected challenge, I'll put out there, be careful what you wish, right? Right, where it prints or not. But what happens when you meet someone who's been thinking about this a lot and has a very immediate question and as a class. And I'll give you a very real world case when I arrived at CMU, the equestrian, he asked me to give a talk. I said, sure, I'm happy to do that. And then just as I'm about to start, he brings somebody up and goes, Oh, say, this is Marshall A. Berry. He's the dean of computer science. I think you're a computer scientist and why first off at CMU. So I've just anxious the whole time wondering what he's thinking. And then he comes up to me, the idea goes, I need you to tell me what license to pick. So I can tell Michael Cleash. He's clearly been thinking about it for a while. And the challenge is he wants a very clear answer. He wants me to say, this is the last shot all of your faculty should use it. And not an expert advice. It's right new enough to say, can't answer that definitively and easily for you right now. I can certainly work with people like to transfer others in the open source community, the foundations that are doing this kind of work and come back to you with a much better sort of fleshed out, robust kind of answer. But I don't want that to linger forever, right? I want to be able to go back to him and say, I have no work internally and externally. A lot of experts on this. And this is the recommendation I have. So there may be those moments where you're thinking, boy, I wish, you know, the dean of someone would just ask me for something. And then they do and you go, oh --- Created with [Snipd](https://www.snipd.com) | Highlight & Take Notes from Podcasts