# I Will Have Mercy, Not Dogma  ## Episode metadata - Episode title: I Will Have Mercy, Not Dogma - Show: Data Over Dogma - Owner / Host: Daniel McClellan and Daniel Beecher - Episode publish date: 2026-04-13 - Episode AI description: They unpack the Maccabean revolt: Seleucid vs Ptolemaic politics, Hellenization, guerrilla warfare, temple rededication, and the Hasmonean aftermath. They trace how the revolt influenced apocalyptic literature, priesthood disputes, and later Roman takeover. They also revisit the prophetic critique, its focus on elite injustice and ritual hypocrisy, and a listener's corrective about violent or exclusionary prophetic texts. - Mentioned books: [The Bible Says So](https://share.snipd.com/book/a0b9a249-0904-4ce3-b0d7-6000458cd9b3) by [Dan McClellan](https://share.snipd.com/person/25209d25-3415-4657-89e2-eb3b0f8104cb) - Duration: 01:04:33 - Episode URL: [Open in Snipd](https://share.snipd.com/episode/2635f8b2-18d1-4c54-8c79-8e92184bf702) - Show URL: [Open in Snipd](https://share.snipd.com/show/8153b1cc-d781-49fd-92d5-a4bef70d1be5) - Export date: 2026-07-08T01:10:39 ## Snips ### [Hellenization Drove Internal Jewish Conflict](https://share.snipd.com/snip/d455dc64-6873-4f19-9051-5b99334927c7) 🎧 08:57 - 17:44 (08:47) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/dde55266-1409-433b-ab91-566062c710a6" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - McClellan explains Hellenization created an internal split between Hellenizers and traditionalists in Judea, increasing political friction. - The Seleucids imposed high-priest appointments and cultural practices, pressuring elites to choose assimilation or resistance. #### 💬 Quote > And so there's a little bit of waning of some of the, uh, Torah observance and some of the practices you get, uh, people are like, Hey, we should have a gymnasium. > — Dan McClellan Dan McClellan on cultural pressure from Hellenistic rule #### 📚 Transcript **Dan McClellan:** And this is the Seleucid and the Ptolemaic kingdoms. And so these are rulers who are fighting over this territory, and it kind of goes back and forth a little bit. And we recently talked about the letter of Aristeas and the origins of the Septuagint. And that was based on Alexandria, where for a time the Seleucids held sway. But one of the things that happens is the Seleucids come in and they're governing in and around Judea for a while. And you have Hellenistic culture is kind of taking over. They come in and they're like, this is how we dress now. This is the food that we eat. This is the, these are the clothes that we wear. You know, this is how we leave the skin on our genitals and you know, all that kind of stuff. And, and the locals are kind of like, but you do have a lot of folks who are in the, the upper echelons of society who can see the writing on the wall and they understand that, hey, we need to of integrate if we want to have livable lives. And so, go **Dan Beecher:** ahead. Sorry, my understanding is that while they were sort of under the Seleucid Empire's purview, were still allowed quite a bit of autonomy. Their rulers were still allowed to rule the area and stuff, but that's always a tenuous position. **Dan McClellan:** Exactly. It's **Dan Beecher:** always the **Dan McClellan:** whim of the overlords. The winds of change might be blowing in another direction at any moment. And so you've got a lot of folks who want to take advantage of the opportunities provided by this vast network economically and all this kind of stuff. And so there's a little bit of waning of some of the, uh, Torah observance and some of the practices you get, uh, people are like, Hey, we should have a gymnasium. That's kind of like, uh, you know, that's like getting an NFL football team. You're on the map now. Um, but you know, you've got a, if you go participate in, in the gymnasium, you got to do so in the nude and, you know, you've got kind of a conspicuous handicap. I was kicked **Dan Beecher:** out of my gymnasium for doing that. **Dan McClellan:** Yeah, well, things have changed. And you basically get this internal conflict between the Hellenizers, the ones who are like, we should integrate, we should reform our culture to be in agreement with theirs, and the more traditionalists who are like, no, we've got to observe our laws and rules and we cannot integrate. And so there's, it's a bit of a, you know, there's some insularity there. They're not quite separatists, but they're definitely not letting their kids go and play with the Hellenizers. So we've got some internal conflict. And then the winds of change change, as is their won't. Although I've been ridiculed that it should be pronounced as is their won't. **Dan Beecher:** Well, then how do you separate the two? One's **Dan McClellan:** with an O and one's with an A. Come on. And we get Antiochus IV Epiphanes, who exceeds to Seleucid rule around 175 BCE. **Dan Beecher:** Is he named Antiochus just because the seat of the Seleucid power was in Antioch? I read that it was in Antioch and I just thought Antiochus, that just, is he named after the place? I **Dan McClellan:** mean, it certainly sounds like it's related. I couldn't tell you off the top of my head which direction that relationship flows. Some **Dan Beecher:** listener is going either yes, obviously, or no. Some listener knows. Anyway, go on. **Dan McClellan:** And we have accounts of what happened because of Antiochus's ostensible desire to kind of mitigate the influence of Jewish conventions and traditions. Was tired of these people doing their own thing. And our sources, our main sources for this are like 1st and 2nd Maccabees, because they are considered 1st Maccabees more so than 2nd Maccabees, but to some degree 2nd Maccabees as well. They are considered to be pretty historical. And even Josephus is relying on, at least 1st Maccabees, in parts of his retelling of that history, which is more recent than the biblical history that he's retelling. But basically, it seems that Antiochus IV banned circumcision, banned Sabbath observance, banned things like Torah study, and then apparently tried to repurpose the Jerusalem temple so that there could be Greek cults doing their thing in the temple. And then we also have, in this time period, you have the high priesthood. That's the main thing. That's the big leagues. And you have competing high priests, and they're starting to forge political alliances. And the high priesthood is something that is going to be an installation of the Seleucid rule rather than something that's hereditary, something that is internal. And so there begins to be a lot more friction, and the Hellenizers find themselves in kind of an unfortunate position, and the traditionalists are now finding themselves more directly under the boot of the Seleucid Empire, **Dan Beecher:** but now ready to fight back. Do you get the sense that Antiochus was... Was Antiochus trying to do something to sort of calm the tension between the Hellenizers and the traditionalists? Or was he just being a jerk? Was he just like, we're just going full Hellenizing, and you guys need to just do what I say. **Dan McClellan:** I think both of the books of Maccabees present him as kind of just being a jerk, but certainly... I mean, **Dan Beecher:** they would, wouldn't they? Like, considering the perspective from which they're being written, they have a very distinct perspective. Do we have any Seleucid documentation of this **Dan McClellan:** from their side? I'm trying to think. springs to mind. But I do. Let me think. You know, there's some archaeological data from some of the sites and cities and things like that. But textual stuff, apart from maybe some brief inscriptions just letting us know who was where, I don't think we have anything that represents the Seleucid side of the story. Interesting. But the book of 1 Maccabees and the book of 2 Maccabees are also quite different in their kind of ideological bent. Because Maccabees is more like, it's trying to tell the story in as historical a way as the author is able to, which is, you know, it's still not Herodotus, but it is, it's not 2nd Maccabees, because 2nd Maccabees is more dramatical. It's more rhetorical. You've got martyrdoms, and you've got speeches, and you've got miracles and things like this. So, and there's a degree to which 1 Maccabees is also more about political alliances. It's not talking about God as much, and it is ending with trying to prop up the legitimacy of the Hasmonean dynasty, which is where this is all headed. This is going to end up with the establishment of the Hasmonean or the Hasmonean, you know, you will hear it pronounced two different ways, dynasty, which would be when Judaism kind of is autonomous and free once again. And that would last for a handful of decades. --- ### [Hasmonean Rule Was Brief And Historically Dated](https://share.snipd.com/snip/268783a8-e073-4bb5-b9cd-3221f7405328) 🎧 21:37 - 29:35 (07:57) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/2ca7fabb-2c9a-4dd0-8589-7a1fcf204cf0" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - The Hasmonean kingdom lasted roughly 141–63 BCE and briefly restored Judean autonomy before Pompey's Roman annexation. - 1 and 2 Maccabees treat Rome as an ally, which helps date those books to before Roman domination (pre-63 BCE). #### 💬 Quote > The Hasmonean dynasty kingdom lasts from 141, I think, BCE down to 63 BCE. > — Dan McClellan Dan McClellan summarizing the Hasmonean period #### 📚 Transcript **Dan McClellan:** And so the Hasmonean dynasty kingdom lasts from 141, I think, BCE down to 63 BCE. So you got almost 80 good years of an independent Judean kingdom, which was also characterized by a lot of infighting and a lot of fractured alliances and things like that. And this is also the context for the retreat of the Essene population to Qumran. Oh, wow. The real separatists. And there's an argument there. I think the majority of scholars would probably say that one of their main beefs was that they don't believe the Hasmonean priestly line has a legitimate claim to the priesthood. Interesting. That they are not, because the palace and the temple were supposed to be separate. And so this kingdom was established based on the conflation of the two. This one family is going to take over rule of both. Okay. **Dan Beecher:** So the high priests at the temple are now the rulers of the people as well. **Dan McClellan:** Yeah. And so this is considered a no-no by these traditionalists who run off to Qumran. And to be clear, **Dan Beecher:** for those who didn't catch on to this, the Yassins in Qumran were the ones who had who tucked away the dead sea scrolls that we found correct **Dan McClellan:** for mostly yeah it's it's a lot more complicated than that but yeah there's there there these texts are probably being brought in from from a variety of places for a variety of reasons and it's probably different groups over the centuries who are are um stuffing them in these caves but but yeah i think it's just one guy who collected them all and just put them in his attic and then they **Dan Beecher:** found them. **Dan McClellan:** You know, throughout most of my adult life, tax season is the only time when I get a look at my full financial picture. And it's usually horrifying, which is why I'm glad I don't have to think about it for the rest of the year. But with Monarch, you can see where your money's going throughout the entire year. You want to make progress with your money. 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It's not your average personal financial app. They actually have built AI tools. They call it Monarch Intelligence. It was trained by certified financial planners and advisors. So basically, 24-7, you've got a financial coach who is ready and able to assist you. You can ask it questions. It can give you good advice. You've got a weekly recap that the AI will produce for you. That's really great. It makes things easy, like splitting bills. You can split bills just by uploading a receipt and Monarch will automatically parse the items and prices for you. And then you just share a link or a QR code with your friends and everybody just takes care of their own thing. That's actually a fantastic use of Monarch just right there. **Dan McClellan:** Achieve your financial goals for good with Monarch, the all-in tool that makes money management simple. Use code DOGMA at Monarch.com for half off your first year. That's 50% off at monarch.com code dogma. So **Dan Beecher:** Dan, I spent years paying so much money for wireless service. I was with all the big wireless carriers. I've tried them all. And the truth is I don't need much from my wireless. I just need to talk, to text, and to be on the internet. And that doesn't require any fees and high bills. It turns out you can actually get that for almost nothing by switching to Mint Mobile. Yeah, **Dan McClellan:** Mint Mobile is here to rescue you with premium wireless plans starting at just 15 bucks a month. And all these plans come with high speed data they come with unlimited talk and text delivered on the nation's largest 5g network and it's very simple there are no long-term contracts no hassle you can bring your own phone your own number you can activate with an e-sim in just minutes and you can start saving immediately ditch overpriced wireless and get three months of premium wireless service from Mint Mobile for 15 bucks a month. This is a service that I use. I think it is so much simpler than the plans I've had to wrestle with in **Dan Beecher:** the past. If you like your money, Mint Mobile is for you. Shop plans at mintmobile.com/dogma. That's mintmobile.com/dogma. Upfront payment of $45 for three-month, five-gigabyte plan required, equivalent to $15 a month. New customer offer for first three months only, then full price plan options available. Tax and fees extra. See Mint Mobile for details. Okay, so we've gotten rid of the sort of the Greeks, the Hellenists, the whatever, and now Rome's encroaching, coming from the other side, I guess. Yeah, and initially **Dan McClellan:** Rome is friendly toward the Hasmonean dynasty. So there's kind of a little brother, big brother thing going on there where they're friendly. And this is why the scholars think that 1 and 2 Maccabees were written before 63 BCE, because Rome is treated as more of an ally than an enemy. written after then, it would be hard for the authors to represent Rome as friendly and not as ultimately the enemies to this new kingdom that was being set up. **Dan Beecher:** Sorry, I'm just going to process one thing really quickly. The Seleucid Empire still exists. It just doesn't extend through Judah. Is that right? Correct. **Dan McClellan:** Although I'm not sure when the Seleucids are not to last for too much longer. I think that 63 BCE might have been the end of the Seleucid Empire as well. Oh, **Dan Beecher:** wow. **Dan McClellan:** Yeah. I think because I think the whole Seleucid Empire is part of that annexation. Okay. In fact, let me take a look real quick. Yeah, the Seleucid dynasty ends. It's dissolved around 64 BCE. They're a rump state. They're occupying a small part of Syria. And then the Roman Republic annexes them in 64 BCE under Pompey the Great. So it sounds like Rome was like, take care of the Seleucids. Okay, now they're out of the way. --- ### [Daniel Reflects Maccabean Era Concerns](https://share.snipd.com/snip/8ec3520a-44fc-4478-8e63-8ad223f8b532) 🎧 29:54 - 32:56 (03:02) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/3642ca6b-be0e-415c-9285-acd015c898e5" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - McClellan connects Daniel and other apocalyptic texts to Antiochus IV and the Maccabean crisis, not to later Christian readings. - Prophetic 'predictions' show precise contemporary detail then drift into inaccuracy once authors project future divine intervention. #### 💬 Quote > The abomination that makes desolation, that is... representative of Antiochus IV Epiphanes taking over the temple and desecrating it. > — Dan McClellan Dan McClellan on Daniel's historical referent #### 📚 Transcript **Dan McClellan:** And Maccabean Revolt is also likely the context for the main apocalyptic eschatological layers of the book of Daniel, which is also primarily about the Seleucid Empire, Antiochus IV, the fourth epiphanies. And only it's probably written long before 1st and 2nd Maccabees written. And this is the funny thing about these prophecies. People are like, oh, they're just so accurate that scholars just said there's no way on earth they're real because prophecy is not real. And the reality is that no, they're inaccurate. They start to get more and more accurate to the point where it's very clear that this is an eyewitness. And then they go back to being entirely inaccurate once the account says, and then God showed up. Which, you know, the best way to account for how that can be is that they're being written by someone who's in this specific time period right before they say God showed up. And they're, you know, the stuff that just happened, they can represent very accurately. The stuff that happened two centuries ago, they're a little fuzzy on. Right, right. But then, you know, the stuff from their own day, yeah, remarkably accurate. And then the stuff that's in their future, remarkably inaccurate, which is precisely what we see. So the abomination that makes desolation, that is going to stand in the temple and all that kind of stuff, that is supposed to be representative of Antiochus IV Epiphanes taking over the temple and desecrating it, using pagan offerings on the altar to desecrate the temple. So when people talk about Daniel and the 70 weeks and all that kind of stuff, that all culminates in the Maccabean revolt. That's when that is looking forward to. So it is not about Jesus. It's certainly not about the 21st century. So that's another source that people use for trying to understand what was going on, only it's such a difficult source to use because we're taking these eschatological prophecies and we're trying to tease out what actual historical events might be going on behind them and might be inspiring these prophecies that are so loosely connected to what's going on, where they're using coded language to try to refer to these events. --- ### [Maccabean Crisis Shaped Judaism's Beliefs And Canon](https://share.snipd.com/snip/9870b34a-f9a8-4e6a-9619-0fbdf6c525c1) 🎧 34:23 - 37:33 (03:10) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/d64ef140-ede8-42e6-9f86-1167c0daf436" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - The Maccabean period catalyzed major religious developments: notions of resurrection, afterlife reward/punishment, and formalization of scripture. - The upheaval likely drove public enforcement and dissemination of the Pentateuch as identity-shaping law. #### 💬 Quote > This is a pivotal period... It was a very, very formulative period in the history of Judaism. > — Dan McClellan Dan McClellan on the formative impact of the Maccabean era #### 📚 Transcript **Dan McClellan:** this is also the period that's probably responsible for the rise of ideologies about resurrection and ideologies about heaven and hell. Because a lot of scholars think it's in this time period that they're contemplating, why is all this bad stuff happening to God's people? And why are we not seeing God's enemies being punished? And this is when a lot of the literature that's being generated is starting to contemplate the possibility that this is being offloaded to the afterlife, where you wait until the afterlife to get your just desserts, whether for good or for bad. And that's why First Enoch has stuff about postmortem divine punishment as well as postmortem divine reward. So a very, very formulative period in the history of Judaism. And there are scholars who argue that the Hasmonean Kingdom, the rise of the Hasmonean Kingdom, might have been the catalyst for the actual formalization of the Pentateuch and its formal kind of publication, publicization, maybe even enforcement. This might be what actually results in the rise of what we can refer to as Judaism as an identity. Because it would be, you know, you've got a new Hasmonean kingdom. We've restored what we have not had since the end the 7th century BCE, the beginning of the 6th century BCE. We've got all these texts from that time period. Let's now use this as our charter myth, as our kind of, this is the tradition that establishes our identity as a new actual kingdom. We've done, we've restored things. And we're reading the literature that was written hundreds of years ago saying, oh, it's going to be so great when we restore things. And maybe the Hasmonean priests and rulers were like, that's now, so let's get this literature out there, and that will help shore up the identity of our people as an independent, autonomous kingdom. There's an argument to make that that's when finally everybody becomes aware of the Pentateuch and all the laws and all of these because it's in that time period, it's in the second century BCE that suddenly you start to see evidence of widespread concern for purity. And you start to see awareness of, oh, we're not supposed to eat pork. And you begin to see literature where they're suddenly debating, well, how do we reconcile, you know, parts of Deuteronomy with parts of Exodus where they don't fit well together? And so I think there's, I'm interested in seeing where the discussion goes, but I think there's probably a good case to make that this is when the scriptures actually become a public document and a public force within the life of Judeans. --- ### [2 Maccabees Shows Prayers For The Dead](https://share.snipd.com/snip/1ef1d01b-4077-432e-87b4-638005977094) 🎧 38:26 - 40:46 (02:20) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/4dd284a4-b2cd-43ba-bc17-cfd835a58fbe" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - McClellan reads 2 Maccabees 12 where Judas collects 2,000 drachmas for sacrifices for fallen soldiers. - He highlights this as an early textual instance of praying and offering for the dead and belief in resurrection. #### 💬 Quote > So they all bless the ways of the Lord... He took up a collection, man by man, to the amount of 2,000 drachmas of silver and sent it to Jerusalem to provide for a purification offering. > — Dan McClellan Dan McClellan reading and explaining 2 Maccabees 12 #### 📚 Transcript **Dan McClellan:** There's a part in 2 Maccabees, 2 Maccabees chapter 12, pretty sure it's verse 42. But Judah, Maccabee, and his troops, they come upon some of their other soldiers, and they're dead. And they find that they have contraband on them. Then under the tunic of each one of the dead, they found sacred tokens of the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbids the Jews to wear. And it became clear to all that this was the reason these men had fallen. So they have pagan contraband on them. And then it says, so they all bless the ways of the Lord, the righteous judge who reveals the things that are hidden. And they turn to supplication, praying that the sin that had been committed might be wholly blotted out. The noble Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves free from sin, for they had seen with their own eyes what had happened as the result of the sin of those who had fallen. He took up a collection, man by man, to the amount of 2,000 drachmas of silver and sent it to Jerusalem to provide for a purification offering. In doing this, he acted very well and honorably taking account of the resurrection. For if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead. So this is basically an endorsement of, or at least an acknowledgement that the people who were in charge of the Maccabean revolt believed that they could offer posthumous sacrifices in the Jerusalem temple that would result in forgiveness of the sins of dead people. So proxy ordinances for the dead, forgiveness of sins after you've died. Well, **Dan Beecher:** and the resurrection of those people. **Dan McClellan:** Yes. And so they've already died. They're going to be resurrected. Or at this point, maybe the resurrection is only if you're righteous. Right. And they're making the offering on the behalf of already dead people in the hopes that they can turn their fate around even after death. --- ### [Prophetic Critique Targets Ritual Without Justice](https://share.snipd.com/snip/a4956a91-6ecb-44fb-a6f5-7836b7b03ecf) 🎧 53:05 - 01:01:18 (08:12) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/3958a8de-19e9-4c19-a838-226668d5c0e2" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - The prophetic critique targets performative ritual when social injustice persists: prophets denounce festivals and sacrifices while elites exploit the poor. - Amos and Isaiah demand justice for the oppressed as the true purpose of covenantal worship. #### 💬 Quote > I hate, I despise your festivals, and I take no delight in your solemn assemblies... But let justice roll down like waters and righteousness like an ever-flowing stream. > — Dan McClellan Dan McClellan quoting Amos and Isaiah on ritual versus justice #### 📚 Transcript **Dan McClellan:** this is where the 8th century prophets step in, and they start excoriating the wealthy. And it's because—but the interesting thing is the target of their excoriation, what they're excoriating them for, is their offering of sacrifices and their celebrations of the festivals and the Sabbaths and the new moons and all this kind of stuff. And so the critique takes on an odd flavor. So, for instance, here is Amos 5, 21 through 24. I hate, I despise your festivals, and I take no delight in your solemn assemblies. Even though you offer me your burnt offerings and grain offerings, I will not accept them, and the offerings of well-being of your fatted animals I will not look upon. Take away from me the noise of your songs, I will not listen to the melody of your harps. But let justice roll down like water and righteousness, Here like an ever-flowing stream. So you have this contrast between all the kind of public displays of piety, which are required by the law, and the righteousness and justice. And then here we have Isaiah, the very first chapter of the book of Isaiah. Verse 11 is where this starts. What to me is the multitude of your sacrifices, says the Lord. I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams and the fat of fed beasts. I do not delight in the blood of bulls or of lambs or of goats. When you come to appear before me, who asked this from your hand? And we talked in a recent episode about why it's actually when you come to see my face. **Dan Beecher:** Right, Who **Dan McClellan:** asked this from your hand? Trample my courts no more. Bringing offerings is futile. Incense is an abomination to me. New moon and Sabbath and calling of convocation. I cannot endure solemn assemblies with iniquity. Your new moons and your appointed festivals my soul hates. They have become a burden to me. I am weary of bearing them. When you stretch out your hands, I will hide my eyes from you, even though you make many right. I will not listen. Your hands are full of blood. Wash yourselves, make yourselves clean, remove your evil deeds from before my eyes. Cease to do evil, learn to do good, seek justice, rescue the oppressed, defend the orphan, plead for the widow. So again, we're condemning these folks who no doubt are the **Dan Beecher:** superstars of their society. Well, and they're very clearly doing the religion. They're not being condemned for not doing the religion, for not being participants. It's quite the opposite. They're doing their job. I mean, the way that I interpret what you just read, and you can correct me if I'm wrong on this, is just that it isn't as a condemnation of the sacrifices as much as it is a condemnation of doing the sacrifices but not doing the righteousness that should be attendant to those sacrifices. **Dan McClellan:** Right, right. And that's, I think, exactly what the issue is, is that according to the 8th century prophets—and this is where it starts—you do see it in, like, Jeremiah. You do see it in some of the exilic and post-exilic literature. Not just Deutero-Isaiah, but Third Isaiah. You see it a little bit in there as well. But the idea seems to be, you are, and where is the passage where it says this? There's a reference to, I think it's in Isaiah, there's a reference to grinding the faces of the poor. But the poor, the oppressed, the orphan, the widow, these always come up as kind of the canary in the coal mine of social justice. These are the people whose well-being is how you can tell if your society is doing well or not. And I think the condemnation of the public displays of piety is precisely because for the 8th century prophets, the purpose of the law is to a just and righteous society where not everybody necessarily has to be on the same footing, but everybody has to have what they need to get by. They need to be able to survive. They need to be able to have the things that they need and not be oppressed. And so when the wealthy are exploiting the justice system, exploiting the economy, exploiting the system of cult and things like that, they are basically undermining the intent of the law. They're destroying it. But at the same time, they're going out to participate in the public facing demands of the law, the demands of the law that allow them to engage in costly signaling and show everybody else out there. Look how righteous I am. I was at the sacrifice like we just had somebody was just talking about. What's the the spokesperson for the White House's name? Levitt. Yeah. came up to the the podium and was like did you just hear that very loud amen because we were just doing a prayer back there yeah i saw and it's like whoa why would you come out and be like **Dan Beecher:** could you tell we were praying we wanted to make it very loud like were you all able should we go back and do our costly signaling again? Or did you catch it on mic? **Dan McClellan:** Yes. And this is a way to put on display, look how righteous and pious we are when she's then going to talk about how, no, screw all the LGBTQIA, screw the poor, screw the immigrants, screw the minorities. It's wartime baby. Uh, that's, you know, I, I, I used to, I used to be baffled by that Buffalo Springfield song. Um, and I forget the title. Um, something happened in here, what it is. You know, the, you know, the old children's tale from the sea. Anyway, there's a part of the song where it goes, people waving signs. Most of them say, hooray for our side. Right. And I'm like, wait a minute. From what I have, the way I'm reconstructing the Vietnam War in my own memory, based on what I've heard, everybody hated the Vietnam war. And, uh, why, why is the song saying that most of the people are cheering it on? And, and now I'm, I'm realizing, well, I'm looking at so many people cheering on, uh, and obviously asinine, unnecessary, stupid war that somebody who cannot think a half a move ahead is started. And so, yeah, I can see it now. I get it. Thank you, Buffalo Springfield. I get it. But that's an example of this very thing of performing for the public in order to advance your own standing within the social identities that are important to you while behind their back grinding the faces of the poor. So, yeah, and it goes on. You see it in Amos. You see it in 3rd Isaiah. You see some in Jeremiah. And you even have Hosea 6-6, for I desire steadfast love and not sacrifice the knowledge of God rather than burnt offerings. And how do you put on display steadfast love and the knowledge of God? Well, obviously, you create a just society. You will stand up for the poor and the needy and the oppressed and the orphan and the widow. --- ### [Use The Prophetic Critique Transparently](https://share.snipd.com/snip/7d908caa-d3dd-4afb-9d24-096b9db47154) 🎧 01:02:14 - 01:12:23 (10:09) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/e9665e9b-9ce6-41af-9782-cda76239a58d" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - McClellan accepts a corrective: use the prophetic critique but acknowledge its problematic elements instead of cherry-picking. - He vows to be transparent about leaving disagreeable parts of texts while leveraging their moral critiques. #### 💬 Quote > If we're going to do that, we need to be transparent about the fact that we're leaving the bad. > — Dan McClellan Dan McClellan responding to Simone's critique about selective use of prophetic texts #### 📚 Transcript **Dan McClellan:** I've made a video on the prophetic critique a handful of times just because I don't think we've – I've lived in a time where it is – what was being criticized is so abundantly on display. Right. You agree. I agree with the prophetic critique. As do I. Yes. However, I have been called out by a member of my own Patreon community, somebody who wrote a wonderful treatise about where I've gone wrong. And when this individual pointed me to this, I was like, ah, okay, you got me. Um, because, and, and this is not, this is not something I'm unaware of. It's just something that I have neglected because I've, I've done the very thing that I've criticized others for doing, which is isolate the part of the text or the tradition that is helpful to me and my identity politics and ignoring the parts that doesn't serve that rhetorical interest or those rhetorical goals. Because while the prophetic critique seems to be making all these very righteous kind of distinctions between where things go right and things go wrong is that the people writing it also were advocating for a lot of very bad stuff up to and including there was a lot of ethnocentrism going on. There was a lot of maltreatment of foreigners and things like that. It's more rhetoric. The appeal to the orphan and the widow is more rhetoric than it is actual concern. where the poor and the orphan and the widow and the foreigner function kind of rhetorically as the canaries in the coal mine. But in actual practice, they usually still get neglected by the very people who appeal to them. And an example that I bring up is how the laws of Hammurabi, the prologue to the laws of Hammurabi, basically like, oh, Hammurabi is such a righteous king, and he has made provision for the widow and the orphan. And then you can look throughout all of the laws of Hammurabi, and there is nothing that provides anything for the widow and the orphan. In fact, the only time they're mentioned is when either they're being restricted or something like that is going on. So it's rhetorical. And I lost sight of that in these videos where I've talked about the prophetic critique because, and I want to read some from this. Simone is the name of my friend. Remembering the Prophetic Critique, a response to Dan McClellan is the title of their sub stack post on this. But I am accused accurately of stripping context from the texts and from not paying attention to what's important about this. And I want to try to find, okay, the poor treatment of the most vulnerable in society might be condemned, Simone writes, but so are foreigners in the many oracles against the nations, such as in the first chapter of Amos and throughout the rest of the prophets. And the social order envisaged as ideal is still thoroughly hierarchical, in which women serve more of a role as symbols than people, and those symbolic women are often subjected to horrific abuse. The restoration of the proper order of the world in Deutero-Isaiah involves the humiliation of the feminine Babylon, and the restoration of Israel to their proper place at the height of the order of creation, redeemed to serve the cult of the creator. And you can see sexual violence is frequently used in this rhetoric about how God is going to punish the, not only members of the house of Israel, but the foreigners as well, **Dan Beecher:** which is **Dan McClellan:** something that we've talked about before. Is **Dan Beecher:** that considered a part of the prophetic critique, or is that sort of separate, like a separate thing that's happening alongside in the same books? **Dan McClellan:** It's happening alongside in the same books. So it's not necessarily that it is an element of the prophetic critique, but it is definitely the prophetic critique is being abutted to these other things. This narrative of redemption is couched in cosmogonic language, which is also an ideology of cult, hierarchy, and property relations in which God is supreme monarch and Israel, both the land and the people, are his hereditary property. It is not only the mistreatment of the vulnerable, which is a sign of cosmic imbalance, but any disruption of this entire system. And when disruption occurs, punishment is collective and brutal. And don't have time, obviously, to go through the whole thing. It's a pretty long post, but I think it's a very **Dan Beecher:** insightful— Well, let's try to remember to put the— **Dan McClellan:** Yeah, we can link to it in the show notes. In the show notes, yeah. And so I think it is an insightful critique of my misrepresentation, to some degree of the prophetic critique. And I have thanked Simone for pointing this out through other channels. But I think it's helpful to know what the prophetic critique is, because I do think that in many ways, what was being criticized is still going on today. I think it is very similar to Jesus's criticism of those who stand on the street corner and pray to be seen of men and disfigure their faces when they fast to be seen of men so that they can get that social reward. And the Carolyn Levitt thing, the first thing I thought of is when you pray, go into a closet and pray in secret. Don't come out before the cameras and say, did you, could you hear us praying? We just want to make clear we were praying. We can go keep praying if that, but at the same time, there is the, the prophetic critique is kind of self-defeating in that it is surrounded by so much that points in the opposite direction, so much maltreatment of women, of the oppressed, of widows, of the foreigner. And as well as she points out, or as they point out, I'm going to be honest here, I've never checked to see what Simone's preferred pronouns are, But when disruption occurs, punishment is collective and brutal. Punishment in this time period, including punishment administered by prophets or advocated for by prophets, was violent, was retributive, was not the kind of thing we should be advocating for. So I think a helpful corrective and a mea culpa, and also a thank you to Simone for pointing all this out so publicly so that I could not ignore it. I **Dan Beecher:** mean, okay, I see the point, which is that these people who are pointing out vast amounts of hypocrisy are themselves hypocrites in the sense that they're calling for justice over performative religion. But then they're not really that indigestion. **Dan McClellan:** There's a degree to which it's still just structuring power. Right. **Dan Beecher:** But by the same token, the critique itself is important and valid and necessary. And we should be that critique of the hypocrisy of today, because there is the same level of like calling on scriptures, calling on gospels, calling on religion and saying, you know, this is what's guiding my support for the maltreatment of my countrymen or of people who are, you know, foreigners here or whatever. and that is and and and i think that it's fair to say that that is a a hypocritical position um **Dan McClellan:** yeah i think so i think we can we can take the good from it and and reject the bad but and and i think what simona is saying is if we're going to do that, we need to be transparent about the fact that we're leaving the bad. And that's what I have been leaving out. I have been ignoring the fact that there's an awful lot of bad. So yeah, I think, I think absolutely the critique can and should be leveraged. But um, an act of negotiation. Yeah. This is us going into texts and saying, okay, we're, we're fiddling with it. We're going to take this. We're going to leave that because this is more directly supports our rhetorical goals and this rather undermines them or doesn't, or doesn't align with our, our morals or things like that. So, uh, I take the, the critique. I do think the prophetic critique is something that people should be aware of. And I am glad that it was pointed out that I've been a little selective in the past in my leveraging of the prophetic critique in light of everything that is surrounding it. there are other things that I didn't highlight from that critique. So by all means, go check it out. And yeah. --- Created with [Snipd](https://www.snipd.com) | Highlight & Take Notes from Podcasts