# The Holy Dunk  ## Episode metadata - Episode title: The Holy Dunk - Show: Data Over Dogma - Owner / Host: Daniel McClellan and Daniel Beecher - Episode publish date: 2026-01-12 - Episode AI description: This discussion dives deep into the significance of Jesus' baptism, exploring its narrative discrepancies across the Gospels. The hosts unpack baptism's origins, connecting it to Jewish ritual and the themes of forgiveness and rebirth. They also reveal fascinating links between Deuteronomy and Assyrian vassal treaties, challenging listeners to rethink biblical laws and their historical contexts. Additionally, they highlight peculiar injunctions around warfare and preservation in Deuteronomy, making for a thought-provoking exploration of ancient texts. - Mentioned books: [The Bible Says So](https://share.snipd.com/book/a0b9a249-0904-4ce3-b0d7-6000458cd9b3) by [Dan McClellan](https://share.snipd.com/person/25209d25-3415-4657-89e2-eb3b0f8104cb) - Duration: 01:00:10 - Episode URL: [Open in Snipd](https://share.snipd.com/episode/a3d24f08-a0b2-4597-8547-ffd8eb6d27c3) - Show URL: [Open in Snipd](https://share.snipd.com/show/8153b1cc-d781-49fd-92d5-a4bef70d1be5) - Export date: 2026-02-17T23:32:21 ## Snips ### [Baptism's Origins And Historical Plausibility](https://share.snipd.com/snip/f7e94542-006f-4877-965e-8142dceea02b) 🎧 06:11 - 09:38 (03:26) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/fdd7c9d8-e337-4802-b3e0-2427d1a8d421" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - Baptism likely evolved from Jewish mikvah into a ritual signaling forgiveness and rebirth rather than mere purity. - Dan McClellan argues Jesus' baptism is probably historical because its awkwardness would be embarrassing to invent. #### 💬 Quote > Why else would they have Jesus subordinating himself to another claimant to this messenger from God role? > — Dan McClellan Dan McClellan on why Jesus' baptism likely reflects a historical event #### 📚 Transcript **Dan McClellan:** Yeah, we're going to talk about the development of that. And I think it marks an interesting contrast where the theology of the baptism kind of grows, whereas the significance of John the Baptist's death kind of effaces, goes away, as we progress through time in the composition of the Gospels, as it becomes more important to have Jesus actually being the one who's in charge when it comes to this baptism. Maybe **Dan Beecher:** one of the things that we should do before we dive into the actual accounts of the baptism is talk a little bit about what baptism is and what it's for and when did it start happening. I don't know. It's a weird, I mean, it's a very interesting ritual. And I don't, did it start in the Hebrew Bible or is it new? Well, it's new to the New Testament. Yeah, **Dan McClellan:** we talked a bit about this when James McGrath was on the show talking about his biography of John the Baptist. And I think, and we talked a bit there about how baptism seems to have been kind of an incremental elaboration on the mikvah, which was a purification bath. That was something that Second Temple Jewish folks did quite frequently. And we even have examples of this at Qumran, among the Essene community that occupied that area and seems to have been responsible for gathering most of the Dead Sea Scroll manuscripts. And this was a way to ritually purify yourself. And the elaboration, the change that we talked with James about, was that it was not so much a matter of ritual purification so much as a means of receiving forgiveness for sins. So that's the main contribution that John the Baptist maybe made. It might be John the Baptist who actually was like, we're going to do it like this from now on and introduce this new way of thinking about the significance of immersion within water. But it seems to have built on the foundation of the mikvah. Sort of a, **Dan Beecher:** yeah, like a ritual cleanliness sort of thing. **Dan McClellan:** Yeah, where rather than just ridding yourselves of temporary impurities that you may have accumulated the course of your day, or in preparation for doing something that requires ritual purity, now it is this kind of liminal ritual between a period of sinfulness, purification from your sins, forgiveness for your sins, and now you are a new person moving forward. So it almost kind of becomes a rebirth kind of thing, and that gets picked up later on by later Christian authors. But a lot of scholars think this is probably historical. We've got that embarrassment criterion that why else would they have Jesus subordinating himself to another claimant to this messenger from God role? And then the gospel authors kind of struggling to make it not seem like Jesus is subordinating himself, if it was not something that goes back to the very origins of the story, meaning it's probably historical. --- ### [Mark Presents A Coronation Moment](https://share.snipd.com/snip/c95a84fe-a671-434c-85f1-639292628052) 🎧 11:24 - 11:44 (00:20) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/cffb9c17-8445-4ca2-b02b-9486c24f1491" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - Mark's brief baptism scene emphasizes Jesus' anointing, not the reasons for baptism. - The voice and Spirit combine Psalm 2 and Isaiah motifs to coronate Jesus as Messiah. #### 💬 Quote > You are my son, beloved with you i am well pleased. > — Mark (read by Dan McClellan) Reading Mark's baptismal account and its coronation imagery #### 📚 Transcript **Dan McClellan:** So Mark 1.9 is where it starts. In those days, Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee and was baptized by John in the Jordan. And that's the account of the actual act of the baptism. And just as he was coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens torn apart and the spirit descending like a dove upon him. --- ### [Matthew Softens The Embarrassment](https://share.snipd.com/snip/d0743990-99fd-40b1-b288-044b98495a06) 🎧 19:42 - 26:41 (06:59) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/4fad3219-6207-4e9f-b5be-b398492f30a4" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - Matthew reframes the awkwardness by having Jesus insist on baptism to "fulfill all righteousness." - Matthew makes the heavenly voice public to identify Jesus to the crowd. #### 💬 Quote > Let it be so now for it is proper for us in this way to fulfill all righteousness. > — Matthew (read by Dan Beecher) Dan Beecher quoting Matthew's account explaining Jesus' consent to baptism #### 📚 Transcript **Dan McClellan:** Then Jesus came from Galilee to John at the Jordan to be baptized by him. John would have prevented him saying, I need to be baptized by you. And do you come to me? But Jesus answered him, let it be so now for it is proper for us in this way to fulfill all **Dan Beecher:** righteousness. Then he consented. You came really close to doing like a Bill and Ted voice on that part, which I love that we're proper for us in this way to fulfill all righteousness. There's just something great about that. Anyway, yeah. We're **Dan McClellan:** going to fail most egregiously. Yeah. Now that the holidays are over, you might be feeling like you've got a big spending hangover. The drinks, the holiday food, the gifts, it all adds up. Luckily, Mint Mobile is here to help you cut back on overspending on wireless this January with 50% off unlimited premium wireless. We have this plan for all of my girls. They do not have any of the problems I have with service, particularly when I'm at their schools waiting for them. 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Initial plan term only. Over 50 gigabytes may slow when network is busy. Capable device required. Availability speed and coverage varies. See mintmobile.com. **Dan Beecher:** episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. Dan, I don't know about you. I tend not to be a New Year's resolution guy myself. Shocking. In part because I always forget about my resolutions and then I feel bad about myself. But what if my resolution was to do something that made me feel a little better about myself? I think that might be a good New Year's resolution. And I think that one of the good ways to do that is to get yourself into therapy. I know that for me, therapy has worked wonders in my life when I've gone through some really tough times. And I think that the new year doesn't have to be about new year, new you. It could just be new year, slightly less burdened, happier you. And that, to me, is a really good goal. **Dan McClellan:** Yeah, I think a lot of folks out there who have never tried therapy might be surprised how life changing it can be to be given the tools to be able to think in new ways about how you're doing and to be able to communicate with people around you. And a really good facilitator of that can be BetterHelp. BetterHelp therapists are fully licensed in the U.S. They work according to a strict code of conduct. And BetterHelp has a therapist match commitment. They do the initial matching work for you so you can focus on your therapy goals. They have a short questionnaire that helps to identify your needs and preferences. And if you aren't happy with your match, you can switch to a different therapist at any time from all their tailored recommendations. And they have over 30,000 therapists, one of the world's largest online therapy platforms, having served over 5 million people globally. And they have an average rating of 4.9 out of 5 stars for a live session based on over And And Jesus had been baptized, just as he came up from the water, suddenly the heavens were open to him, and he saw God's Spirit descending like a dove and alighting on him. And a voice from the heavens said, this is my Son, the Beloved, whom I am well pleased. So we got lots of changes here. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, Matthew was getting real artistic-y licensee, where he's, one, addresses the elephant in the room, wait a minute, why would Jesus go subordinate himself to this dude? And has John the Baptist recognized, whoa, I don't hold a candle to you. Why would I need to baptize you? I need to be baptized by you. And Jesus says, just do the thing. And it's to fulfill all righteousness, which, what does that mean? Well, maybe it just means, as an example to everybody else, you have to get baptized. None of you have any excuse because look, Jesus who had no sins got baptized. And he even recognized, I got to. I don't need it, but I got to do it anyway. So Matthew has thought of everything. **Dan Beecher:** more important than jumping through all the hoops. Yes. Yes. This is just- You literally have to do the bureaucracy. You got to fill it out in triplicate. You've got to send one half to HR. **Dan McClellan:** Look, if the gospel is not a checklist, what is it? What are we even doing here? Yeah, yeah. And then we do have Jesus is the one who sees God's spirit descending like a dove and alighting on him. And here we're kind of inching a little closer to actually seeing a dove. Yeah. Because it's like, it lands on and alights on him. **Dan Beecher:** It does still keep it simile. It says like a dove. Right. And then the voice **Dan McClellan:** changes, though. It does not say you are my beloved son. So now we have to understand this voice being heard by others. This voice is a sign to others, an identification of Jesus to others as God's son, the beloved, with whom I am well pleased. Again, Psalm 2, again, Isaiah 11, Isaiah 42. All of this is still in the background, but Matthew's like, oh, I'm going to juice this up. --- ### [Luke's Prayerful, Bodily Dove Image](https://share.snipd.com/snip/73a9f6f4-9f24-4953-84c9-a61fff4b12c0) 🎧 27:26 - 28:27 (01:00) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/3d505843-9bed-4a39-88c7-4c6d24c9c27d" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - Luke emphasizes Jesus' prayer and describes the Spirit's descent as a bodily dove. - Luke compresses chronology and sometimes omits naming John as the baptizer. #### 💬 Quote > The Holy Spirit descended upon him in bodily form like a dove. > — Luke (read by Dan McClellan) Dan McClellan reading Luke's version noting the 'bodily form' phrasing #### 📚 Transcript **Dan McClellan:** Luke 3.21, Now when all the people were baptized, and when Jesus also had been baptized and was praying, the heaven was opened, and the Holy Spirit descended upon him in bodily form like a dove. Like a dove. Yes. And a voice came from heaven. You are my son, the beloved. With you, I am well pleased. So again, **Dan Beecher:** the voice addresses Jesus again, but there is a bird. There's like, it seems like there's an actual physical bird now. **Dan McClellan:** Yes. So the Greek here is somatiko idi, which would be bodily appearance. The spirit, the Holy One, the bodily appearance of a dove. So now it actually, it is a dove that is in view. And now it descends upon him. And Luke doesn't actually narrate the actual baptism itself. --- ### [Paulic Adoption Shapes Gospel Imagery](https://share.snipd.com/snip/0d78ad73-fb0c-43a4-a4a5-32d7488f0d0e) 🎧 30:13 - 31:56 (01:42) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/506d7328-ac15-44bc-9622-2b4ffe378010" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - Pauline theology likely influenced gospel baptism narratives by linking Spirit reception to adoption. - The baptism scene resonates with believers' experience of adoption described in Paul. #### 💬 Quote > For all who are led by the Spirit of God are children of God. > — Paul (referenced by Dan McClellan) Dan McClellan connecting Romans/Galatians adoption language to baptismal narratives #### 📚 Transcript **Dan McClellan:** And we have some interesting things in the letters of Paul that suggest to some scholars that the story is being crafted with this notion of baptism being an adoption. Because we've got, let's see, Romans 8, 14. For all who are led by the Spirit of God are children of God. For you did not receive a spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, And And also in Galatians Galatians in the baptism, we got the same thing. Spirit sent. You are my Son. And so maybe the whole baptism story is intended to reflect or kind of resonate with people who have understood their own reception of the Spirit as their own adoption into the family of God, and now they are joint heirs with Jesus. Oh, and now the story of Jesus being baptized says the same thing. So it might be an attempt on the gospel authors to try to appeal to that conceptualization of adoption into the family of God. --- ### [John Recasts Baptism As Identification](https://share.snipd.com/snip/927e5d9b-efd5-4865-a6f7-0729038b3493) 🎧 33:46 - 35:34 (01:47) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/da0c510a-af53-4645-a3ff-3bfaac39ec42" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - John's Gospel reframes baptism as identification rather than the act itself. - John focuses on the Spirit remaining on Jesus and anticipates his baptizing with the Spirit. #### 💬 Quote > He on whom you see the Spirit descend and remain is the one who baptizes with the Holy Spirit. > — John (read by Dan McClellan) Dan McClellan summarizing John's testimonial use of the baptism theme #### 📚 Transcript **Dan McClellan:** John 1, verse 29, the next day he saw Jesus coming toward him and declared, here is the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world. So he got a very developed kind of soteriological framework going on here. And the he here is John the Baptist. John the Baptist, yes. This is he of whom I said, after me comes a man who ranks ahead of me because he was before me. I myself did not know him, but I came baptizing with water for this reason, that he might be revealed to Israel. And John testified, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it remained on him. I myself did not know him, but the one who sent me to baptize with water said to me, He on whom you see the Spirit descend and remain is the one who baptizes with the Holy Spirit. And I myself have seen and have testified that this is the chosen one. And so we've got the baptism again isn't narrated at all, but here the whole point of baptism is kind of reconfigured to be a means of identifying Jesus. It's kind of like God, you know, we could go to the Gethsemane scene where Judas is like, the one I kiss. That's Jesus. And here, John, God is like, hey, go dunk people in water so that I can use that as a mechanism for pointing out to you who the chosen one is. Look **Dan Beecher:** for a guy with a bird. Yeah. **Dan McClellan:** And it won't have anything to do with the actual process of dunking this person. It will have to do with the bird landing on him. And it's all symbolic because he's going to baptize with the Holy Spirit. --- ### [Deuteronomy Mirrors Assyrian Treaties](https://share.snipd.com/snip/be4af190-b1d5-4c07-bbe9-8aaf712224d3) 🎧 49:26 - 52:17 (02:50) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/948f3e10-a4f9-4753-8b0e-dc315aae9b43" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - Deuteronomy's language mirrors Neo-Assyrian vassal treaties, suggesting later composition. - Scholars view Deuteronomy as a constructed 'second law' shaped in post-exilic political contexts. #### 💬 Quote > This covenant is framed in language that is very, very reminiscent of what are called Neo-Assyrian vassal treaties. > — Dan McClellan Dan McClellan describing Deuteronomy's treaty-like framing #### 📚 Transcript **Dan McClellan:** Yeah, well, it's a mess, yeah. This is, Deuteronomy means the second law. We know this was probably begun under the reign of King Josiah toward the end of the pre-exilic period, and it was kind of added to over the following centuries, and it's basically trying to prop up a Davidic line and the necessity of a Davidic king and all this stuff. But one of the things that it does is it purports to be Moses's kind of farewell tour before he goes off to wherever he goes off to. And he reviews an awful lot of the stuff that God told him and that he turned around and told Israel. Only when you compare it to all the other stuff from Genesis to Numbers, it differs in a lot of ways. And one of the main ways it differs is that it's really about a covenant that is being made between God and Israel. Only this covenant is framed in language that is very, very reminiscent of what are called Neo-Assyrian vassal treaties, and particularly those of like S.R. Haddon and other emperors. And so a lot of critical scholars, again, this is something probably written toward the end of the 7th century BCE, so that it would make use of the most authoritative kind of treaty literature of the 7th century BCE makes an awful lot of sense. Okay. So it's talking about a time period that is several hundred years before these texts are being written. So it's basically inventing a golden age in the past. **Dan Beecher:** Right. And it's not just talking about it. It's talking as though the author is in the midst of it. It's talking as though this is somewhat a contemporary talking to the contemporaries of that time. Yes. **Dan McClellan:** And one of the giveaways that it is not from that time is the authors, particularly in the Deuteronomistic layers of other texts outside of Deuteronomy, will frequently say, and then this happened, and then this happened, and to this day, you can still go see that place. Oops. But here in Deuteronomy 20, we've got a series of rules about warfare, how to engage in warfare, and there are three main segments. The first one is verse 1 through 9, and then we have 10 through 14, and then we have 15 through 20, and all of them are very different, and they get increasingly disturbing as we go through. --- ### [Deuteronomy's Conquest Rules Are Genocidal](https://share.snipd.com/snip/a0bf7d45-3f24-49ef-9fcc-63397bcda442) 🎧 53:56 - 55:35 (01:39) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/e364a034-b22b-4bd6-a73e-4108bed0c141" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - Deuteronomy 20 prescribes brutal conquest: forced labor for surrenders and killing males when besieged. - Dan McClellan calls these instructions genocidal and culturally destructive. #### 💬 Quote > When the Lord your God gives it into your hand, you shall put all its males to the sword. > — Deuteronomy (read by Dan McClellan) Dan McClellan reading and critiquing Deuteronomy 20: besieged towns and slaughter rules #### 📚 Transcript **Dan McClellan:** When you draw near to a town to fight against it, offer it terms of peace. It sounds good, but let's be clear. They're engaged in a campaign of conquest. They're not just out enjoying their day, frolicking when suddenly a town shows up and it's like cake or death and you have to offer it peace. If it accepts your terms of peace and surrenders to you, then all the people in it shall serve you at forced labor. So the terms of peace are be subjugated to us. Right. Become our corve labor, become enslaved to us. Right. Slave **Dan Beecher:** or death is a **Dan McClellan:** much worse choice than cake. Yes. I'll have cake, please. Very well. Didn't realize there was going to be more cake. Yeah. But if it does not accept your terms of peace and makes war against you, then you shall besiege it. And when the Lord your God gives it into your hand, you shall put all its males to the sword. You may, however, take as your plunder the women, the children, the livestock, and everything else in the town, all its spoil. You may enjoy the spoil of your enemies, which the Lord your God has given you. And this is particularly disturbing. This is describing basically a genocide because at this time, these towns are basically individual people groups. These are ethnic groups and you're basically destroying them. --- ### ['Kharam' As Ritual Purging](https://share.snipd.com/snip/4cc16eb2-311c-45d6-b877-6e6ac926ad14) 🎧 57:41 - 01:00:06 (02:25) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/ff0cb7e2-dfcc-4cc4-aab3-a359a2d3e107" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - Verse 15 escalates to annihilation (kharam) for towns in Canaan as ritual purification. - McClellan explains this as purging impurity from the land, not mere military policy. #### 💬 Quote > You must not let anything that breathes remain alive. > — Deuteronomy (read by Dan McClellan) Dan McClellan on Deuteronomy's command to annihilate inhabitants of Canaan #### 📚 Transcript **Dan McClellan:** Verses 15 through 18 are usually agreed by scholars to be part of a secondary layer, literary layer, that this has added on later. Because when you read through from verse 1 all the way to verse 14, it's like, okay, here are rules for war. Here's what happens when you go and you out to conquest other cities. But then verse 15 qualifies everything that it has just said. Thus shall you treat all the towns that are very far from you, which are not towns of these nations here, but as for the towns of these peoples that the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance. In other words, verse 15 jumps and says, what I just talked about, that was only for the people who are not occupying the land of Canaan that the Lord your God is giving you. When it comes to the towns in the land of Canaan, you must not let anything that breathes remain alive. Indeed, you shall annihilate them, the Hittites and the Amorites, the Canaanites and the Perizzites, the Hivites and the Jebusites, just as the Lord your God has commanded, so that they may not teach you to do all the abhorrent things that they do for their gods, and you thus sin against the Lord your God. Woof. Yes, indeed. And the NRSVUE has rendered annihilate a verb, well, the noun is kharim, and this is kind of ritual slaughter of a people. And we find this, and this is a term that is used in the Meshia inscription, and it's also known from some Sabean inscriptions. The Sabean people and language were an old South Arabian language, and people who occupied deeper inland in Arabia. But that was the notion basically of ritual slaughter of a people. So in the previous verses, it was kill all the men. They're of no use to us. They're only going to get in the way. We will take and enjoy the women and the children because they can function as concubines or we can raise them as our own, either enslaved population or children. to fight back or whatever. Right. And they're not going fight back. But when it comes to harem, that's ritual slaughter. Everything must go. It's a fire sale. --- ### [Don't Cut Trees, Kill People: A Disturbing Clause](https://share.snipd.com/snip/c59adc24-3f6f-4458-8cec-c75a5e5ec694) 🎧 01:04:21 - 01:06:55 (02:34) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/cfc9089b-0829-447a-b172-e9e52e58df7e" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - Oddly, Deuteronomy forbids destroying fruit trees during sieges while commanding human annihilation. - The hosts call this a morally jarring attempt to limit destruction by privileging property over people. #### 💬 Quote > If you besiege a town for a long time... you must not destroy its trees by wielding an axe against them. > — Deuteronomy (read by Dan McClellan) Dan McClellan reading the injunction against cutting fruit trees during sieges #### 📚 Transcript **Dan Beecher:** And then verse 19 comes in and goes, but you stay away from those trees. Yeah. This is something that has been much debated by scholars. **Dan McClellan:** 19 and 20. If you besiege a town for a long time, making war against it in order to take it, you must not destroy its trees by wielding an axe against them. Although you may take food from them, you must not cut them down. Any trees in the field human beings... Any... Excuse me. Are trees in the So are a lot of scholars who, in the past, past who've said, okay, look, it was a practice of the Assyrians when they were doing their scorched earth campaign to cut down fruit-bearing trees. particularly the ones in the region that would be important would be like date palms and olive trees and stuff like that. that take five to 20 years to mature, but can then produce fruit for a century. Those are very, very important resources. And so a lot of scholars thought, okay, so what this is doing is kind of looking at the Neo-Assyrian siege tactics and saying, don't be like them. That is usually not taken so seriously these days. There's got to be something else going on here. And there are scholars who suggest that this is having to do with not destroying things that are producing fruit. So you've got other parts of Deuteronomy where it's like, don't boil a kid in its mother's milk. And it talks about, there's another part in Deuteronomy 22 where it talks about not destroying things that are bearing fruit. Maybe that has something to do with this. Maybe it just has to do with trying to offer kind of a tiny little token suggestion of humanity. However, it is pretty inhumane to be like, don't hurt the trees. The trees aren't people. Yeah. Why would **Dan Beecher:** you hurt the trees? Expressly saying they're not jerks like humans. They're just trees. They didn't do anything to you. **Dan McClellan:** Yeah. So it is an odd little attempt to try to qualify the genocidal instructions that are going on here. --- Created with [Snipd](https://www.snipd.com) | Highlight & Take Notes from Podcasts