# Ep. 357: Focus and Interruptions  ## Episode metadata - Episode title: Ep. 357: Focus and Interruptions - Show: Getting Things Done - Owner / Host: GTD® - Guests: [Arjan Broere](https://share.snipd.com/person/1c018973-966d-447b-867d-e3ce2c653f86), [David Allen](https://share.snipd.com/person/51d575cd-e0f1-42f5-b105-763cb9f79be0) - Episode publish date: 2026-04-08 - Episode AI description: Arjan Broere, GTD trainer for the Benelux region, shares practical tips on community growth and handling interruptions. David Allen, GTD founder and productivity expert, discusses managing attention, external systems, and realistic planning. They explore focus as an internal skill, digital channel overload, anticipating surprises, and making space for catch-up and intentional rest. - Duration: 31:10 - Episode URL: [Open in Snipd](https://share.snipd.com/episode/04d0e40a-db0d-489d-aec7-5a105fb9da7b) - Show URL: [Open in Snipd](https://share.snipd.com/show/12e59f12-ee70-49f6-b3f4-da6ed8fdb1bf) - Export date: 2026-07-08T01:10:39 ## Snips ### [Chasing Absolute Focus Creates Preday Tension](https://share.snipd.com/snip/e8bfa5a8-b80a-44ba-8dc5-684f0182222b) 🎧 04:30 - 05:56 (01:26) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/b3ed49f7-96bf-44ae-bd4c-1eb26a734461" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - Seeking to eliminate all interruptions creates tension before the day even starts. - Arjan observed that framing interruptions as threats leads people to overreact instead of accepting surprises as normal inputs. #### 💬 Quote > The more you look for it, the more you seem to push it away. > — Arjan Broere Arjan on the paradox of seeking focus #### 📚 Transcript **Arjan Broere:** Yeah. Last couple of years, I think we've all seen an increase in the growth of books, methods, all kinds of searches for focus. How do I somehow steer my attention, my focus to what it deserves to be on? How do I somehow eliminate distractions? And I find that sometimes that search kind of reminds me like the books on happiness, that kind of paradoxically, the more you look for it, the more you seem to push it away. And the more you accept that some things just are the way they are, the more the byproduct seems to be satisfaction and increased happiness. So some of these methods encourage you to be off the radar and to make yourself less visible. And in and of itself can be good advice, but it almost seems like there is some tension building up before the workday even has started. So make sure that you're not found or less interrupted or that your technology is something of a hostile apparatus in your toolkit, rather than it being an extension of the things you can use to think better. And then I did some rereading of getting things done. I across a quote I must have read earlier from David on interruptions, and it really resonated. And that kind of is how the book works, that you've read it at some point, but didn't have the eyes to really see it. then, and it was about interruptions being mismanaged inputs. And then circling back to the concept of mind like water, that if you're appropriately engaged with your environment, you see stuff for what it is. --- ### [A Phone Call That Wasn’t A Problem](https://share.snipd.com/snip/961a8b52-b32c-42de-8d8e-d300db3dc0a1) 🎧 06:49 - 07:29 (00:40) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/cfe11bbf-2c97-4e8c-869d-5ddbe4d838e5" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - John Forrester received an unexpected call from Catherine Allen that led to a job offer and major life change. - He used the story to show some interruptions are valuable opportunities, not problems to avoid. #### 💬 Quote > If I treated that as a bad interruption, closed off from the world, didn't take the call, I could have missed that window. > — John Forrester John on a beneficial unexpected interruption #### 📚 Transcript **Arjan Broere:** I **John Forrester:** have a quick reference on that. If I thought of all of the interruptions that come to me as bad things happening, I wouldn't be here right now. Many years ago, I got an interruption in the middle of the day. A call came in from Catherine Allen and she said, come have dinner with David and me tonight. We want to talk to you about something. They offered me a job. So if I treated that as a bad interruption, closed off from the world, didn't take the call, I could have missed that window. Now, likely they would have tried to interrupt me again a day or two later, but that was not a bad interruption. It was a well-managed input because it led to much better things in my life. --- ### [Reframe Interruptions As Surprises](https://share.snipd.com/snip/b639d75d-936e-40b5-b637-099542bea416) 🎧 09:02 - 09:59 (00:57) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/6de34b7e-f6f5-4939-be17-4f67be661141" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - Reframe interruptions as surprises and opportunities rather than automatic negatives. - David advises accepting new inputs and deciding how to engage instead of building tension by trying to block everything out. #### 💬 Quote > There are no interruptions. There are surprises. There are things that you didn't expect. > — David Allen David on changing how we label incoming events #### 📚 Transcript **David Allen:** There are surprises. There are things that you didn't expect. But I do all kinds of things in the day that I didn't expect. Take a nap, not on my calendar. Have a chat with somebody that just showed up at the front door or out the window. Those aren't interruptions. They are new opportunities to engage with people and enrich my life to some degree, in some way, shape, or form. I understand that's probably a tough thing to swallow if you're, I don't know, 28, 38, 48, and you're getting 300 emails a day. But then I go, well, guess how many thoughts do you have that interrupted yourself out of your own mind on the day? 300 emails is nothing compared to that. You know, so, okay, so I'll stop for now. So what else, Arianne, does that key off for **Ana Maria Gonzalez:** you? I also --- ### [Focus Comes From Managing Your Inner Environment](https://share.snipd.com/snip/e04611fc-914f-456b-b08e-3678efd4d7a7) 🎧 10:24 - 11:42 (01:18) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/3c873fdb-4e4e-4999-82e9-032e95907da8" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - Focus depends on internal mental conditions as much as external environment. - Ana Maria explained that you can be focused in a noisy room if internal distractions are managed through GTD practices. #### 💬 Quote > Focus is a function of the mind. > — Ana Maria Gonzalez Ana Maria on internal vs external focus #### 📚 Transcript **Ana Maria Gonzalez:** So that focus is on creating the conditions, but in the external, but the conditions need to be created first on the internal. Because as we know, focus is a function of the mind. So even in a highly distracted space or environment, I can still be focused. And the opposite can be true. It can be the conditions are there. And I, to David's point, and yet I can be focused because I'm being interrupted internally. So I think it's also important for people to understand that, yes, I think I'm not discounting the value of creating the conditions because I think we all do it one way or the other, right? But that's not going to do the trick if that's what you're looking for in terms of focus. And I remember a while when it could not be the exact words, but something along the lines of if you do GTD, you can focus. If you do GTD, you can relax. And the opposite is also true, right? If you don't do GTD, you can focus. Or if you don't do GTD, you can't relax or different words, meaning with GTD, which basic, which at the end of the day is helping us with the internal, right? --- ### [Do A Mind Sweep Before You Dive In](https://share.snipd.com/snip/e2331fc2-4a3c-457a-be8f-9ebedfe48cd6) 🎧 13:30 - 14:28 (00:58) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/19eb8fe2-5bed-41e2-9260-bde2543019e2" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - Do a mind sweep and verbalize vague tensions before starting work to regain control. - Arjan recommends writing down internal nags so you can decide actions and stop them amplifying every incoming item. #### 💬 Quote > If you start a workday and feel a vague sense of tension and you do a mind sweep and see if you can verbalize what it exactly is and see it on paper rather than have it bouncing around in your head. > — Arjan Broere Arjan on using mind sweeps to reduce amplification #### 📚 Transcript **Arjan Broere:** amplifier is turned to max if you continuously feel a vague sense of I shouldn't be here, should be doing something else. I don't know what I should be doing. Someone in the hallway just asked something and I didn't take note of it and it's not very important, but I need somehow to follow up on. And in those volatile waters, the smallest impact can lead to waves. And the opposite, I think, is also true that if you start a workday and feel a vague sense of tension and you do a mind sweep and see if you can verbalize what it exactly is and see it on paper rather than have it bouncing around in your head and decide if that's actionable and if so, what the action would be, then I think you also train the awareness that sometimes my attention is pulled away by something. What is it? And if it's an inner source, you're trying to verbalize it, it immediately gives you more grip and control. And even though it's something you need to take care of and maybe very big, you can then decide to either if you can't do anything about it now, to for now let it rest because you have decided on an action. --- ### [An External System Stops Amplified Anxiety](https://share.snipd.com/snip/b88979b8-bc56-42a8-a1b7-53fa422b1611) 🎧 16:43 - 17:45 (01:01) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/a66e8255-b693-493e-8687-77c6084610c8" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - The mind is a poor long-term store for tasks and priorities, so external systems reduce magnified anxiety. - David cites cognitive limits and a clean system to be ready for surprises. #### 💬 Quote > If you're still using your mind in your office, your mind's a crappy office. > — David Allen David on limits of relying on memory #### 📚 Transcript **David Allen:** your point, Arjan, too, if you're still using your mind in your office, your mind's a crappy office. And it wasn't designed to remember or remind, prioritize or manage relationships between more than four things. You know, new cognitive science data basically validates that. So the problem is if you've got some sort of an external system, a calendar and maybe a kind of a funky to do list, you kind of don't trust it because you got a bigger bunch of stuff in your head. So you don't really trust either one. And so feeling that kind of subliminal out of control, then to your point, any new thing coming in is magnified tremendously. I think you used the word as amplified. Yeah. Good way to express it. It goes up in spades. So the whole idea of being able to keep your house clean so that you're ready for surprise. --- ### [Expect Large Unscheduled Portions Of Your Day](https://share.snipd.com/snip/fc42b1db-c3d6-4fde-91f7-1c060f710a10) 🎧 18:38 - 19:22 (00:43) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/9cff43da-4aa9-436b-b1be-7f6fbe046132" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - Historically about 40% of the day can be unexpected, and that predates email and phones. - David warns packing every minute creates friction because surprises have always been common. #### 💬 Quote > A common statistic was if you're planning more than 60% of your day, forget it because 40% of your day is going to be a surprise. > — David Allen David on historical unpredictability of work #### 📚 Transcript **David Allen:** And that was before email. That was before mobile phones. That was before any of this stuff. And if that was true then, imagine what percentage of your day is going to be unexpected, you know, now with this coming up. But if you're, for instance, in wall-to meetings and 40% of your day is coming in that you can't deal with while you're in those meetings, you know, welcome to G you need. When are you going to have catch up time? When are you going to have reflection time? When are you going to, you know, bring up the rear guard so that they don't shoot you in the back? So, you know, don't shoot the messenger, you know, for us folks. We're just reporting, you know. --- ### [Capture Quickly And Return Immediately](https://share.snipd.com/snip/f8a6cf0f-4fee-462a-beaa-a6a00512d801) 🎧 20:55 - 21:54 (00:59) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/03ac71f4-38f8-40b8-8f0b-2ffec907e2df" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - When interrupted, capture a quick note and re-enter the task instead of assuming 23 minutes to refocus. - John argues with GTD practice you can return immediately by recording the interruption and continuing. #### 💬 Quote > I don't take 23 minutes to stop doing something. I'll take a note. I'll throw in my entry. I'm back where I am. > — John Forrester John on rapid recovery after interruptions #### 📚 Transcript **David Allen:** and another thing you know arian thank you to your to your point about the all a lot of the new literature about focus there's all kinds of statistics that are being quoted out there about how much time it takes to refocus once you get interrupted i think 23 minutes yeah read. 23 minutes. Imagine being jumped by four people in a dark alley you don't expect and having to wait 23 minutes to fight the second one. I don't think so. I don't think so. You need to be so present that you're now and then now and then now. I don't take 23 minutes to stop doing something. I'll take a note. I'll throw in my entry. I'm back where I am. There's no 23 minutes to get back to what I was doing. It's silly. This was maybe Tyson's. Well, it's not silly. It's probably true for most people that don't get **Arjan Broere:** GTP or don't get the clear space idea. --- ### [Role Determines How Much Deep Focus Is Realistic](https://share.snipd.com/snip/b74d2892-8117-41f5-bc39-ce160de28f19) 🎧 22:17 - 23:21 (01:03) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/96be2ff8-2965-45ea-9c9b-561ea9fed3dc" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - Different roles require different attention mixes: makers need long focus, minders must stay available. - Arjan points out deep focus for hours is unrealistic for many support and management roles. #### 💬 Quote > I think the aim at your deep focus for hours at an end, I think that would be difficult to imagine what kind of role that would be in this day and age. > — Arjan Broere Arjan on role-based attention needs #### 📚 Transcript **Arjan Broere:** They have to switch, have to be available, they'd like to solve problems, every now and again dig into something, but also then have part of the attention on a potential incoming message where they can help someone. Like the project manager and the manager probably will be doing a lot of planning, feedback, goal setting. So the aim at your deep focus for hours at an end, I think that would be difficult to imagine what kind of role that would be in this day and age. But even if you had it, then there would be so many other roles that wouldn't be in that kind of work for whom mainly adding value is helping others or coaching or giving feedback or being available at the right time. And somehow, like a lot of people in those roles say, well, one day is hectic, the other is less, but it evens out. And throughout the week, I know how to take care of stuff. And one day is hectic and I'll take attention. The only thing I need to do is just 10 minutes before leaving or wrapping up, I need to just do kind of a check out. And if I then do a mind sweep, check the calendar for tomorrow, I'm back on the board. Nothing crazy has happened. --- ### [Externalize Thinking With Prototypes And Whiteboards](https://share.snipd.com/snip/5fb6a491-b0f1-4314-bc17-f61a6a749c40) 🎧 27:22 - 28:30 (01:07) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/cb806df3-22ac-4de6-8201-c25925fcff95" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - Use externalization and interaction to boost thinking instead of solitary screen time. - Arjan endorses prototypes, whiteboards, and movement to make abstract ideas easier and more productive. #### 💬 Quote > Most of the best thinking is done externalizing as having a prototype, having all kinds of stuff, visual, using a whiteboard, moving. > — Arjan Broere Arjan on the extended mind and externalizing thought #### 📚 Transcript **Arjan Broere:** Yeah. I really liked the extended mind of the book that the author of this chapter called Rodin was wrong. And then she comments on the famous statue by Rodin, the thinker, where there's one guy crouched on his own thinking. And she makes the point with a lot of research that most of the best thinking is done externalizing as having a prototype, having all kinds of stuff, visual, using a whiteboard, moving, so using space rather than being confined in one place with others. So verbalizing, getting criticism, being challenged. And those three with others moving and externalizing make it so much more dynamic and engaging. And she said, and I think that she has a valid point, that on your own, behind the desk, without any communications, that's so unnatural to think. Also because very abstract concepts in your mind are much more difficult to manipulate than when you have words to them or a prototype or something to really physically work on or move. And I think she really makes a valid point that the hours on end working on your are so much not productive. --- ### [Make Pauses Intentional Not Avoidant](https://share.snipd.com/snip/0ed6696b-98b7-4446-9cd3-ae5c1946a094) 🎧 28:48 - 29:55 (01:06) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/fa667d4c-befa-485d-8dd5-472c330aac9f" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - Manage your intention when you switch tasks: relax intentionally versus avoid intentionally. - David says intention separates productive pauses from procrastination and firefighters maintain trained intentionality despite many false alarms. #### 💬 Quote > My intention is to relax because my brain's been working hard. That's different than my intention is to avoid something I ought to be doing. > — David Allen David on intentionality behind task switching #### 📚 Transcript **David Allen:** I think an important point to make is that what matters is your intention. My intention is to relax because my brain's been working hard. That's different than my intention is to avoid something I ought to be doing. So it looks like the same thing. You're looking at the same, you know, you're looking at two people doing what looks like the same activity. One of them may be doing it to relax, but with an intention of cleaning up, using my time productively. The other one is going, I've got avoid that ugly email that I should write. I don't want to do that. And so your intentionality, I think, is something you can manage. In the fire department, they have an intentionality to make sure they deal with that stuff. That's part of their job. They're trained that way. That's their reflex. And 95% of the alarms are false alarms. Talk a reason to be frustrated. But they don't are frustrated. They there's an alarm. Okay, let's go do that. --- Created with [Snipd](https://www.snipd.com) | Highlight & Take Notes from Podcasts