# Do You Feel Loved?  ## Episode metadata - Episode title: Do You Feel Loved? - Show: Hidden Brain - Owner / Host: Hidden Brain, Shankar Vedantam - Guests: [Greg Walton](https://share.snipd.com/person/e92e7e1d-4258-4ad3-a01c-0a35028c5ee7), [Sonia Lubomirsky](https://share.snipd.com/person/d9a2d76e-8090-4f54-b11c-ebcab3b3af02) - Episode publish date: 2026-04-20 - Episode AI description: Sonia Lyubomirsky, happiness researcher and author, explains why being loved is different from feeling loved and how conversation, vulnerability, and small rituals build real closeness. Greg Walton, Stanford psychologist, explores negative thought spirals, tiny triggers, and practical mindset shifts to prevent downward loops. They focus on connection skills, listening, and simple strategies to feel more loved and less overwhelmed. - Duration: 01:33:11 - Episode URL: [Open in Snipd](https://share.snipd.com/episode/40b55faa-bd2a-4b5e-b783-1a90bd5d08de) - Show URL: [Open in Snipd](https://share.snipd.com/show/c94a26f6-1a03-4020-a574-bec10c59f432) - Export date: 2026-07-08T01:11:15 ## Snips ### [Breakup Over Texting Responsiveness](https://share.snipd.com/snip/b16fd5b1-d056-44ae-ba2b-aa3fba3f9977) 🎧 08:47 - 10:26 (01:38) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/a2b81c07-18d4-4532-b40d-a7f29d16fa1a" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - Sonia ended a relationship because her partner didn't text quickly enough and she interpreted slow replies as not caring. - He showed love in other ways, but the texting currency mattered more to her and ultimately led to the breakup. #### 💬 Quote > The main reason was he just didn't text me like often enough or kind of speedily enough. > — Sonia Lubomirsky Sonia Lubomirsky recounting why she broke off a relationship #### 📚 Transcript **Shankar Vedantam:** Tell me what happened. I had a **Sonia Lubomirsky:** relationship with someone who really did love me, who I knew loved me, but I actually broke it off. And it's going to sound almost crazy about what the main reason was that I broke it off. And the main reason was he just didn't text me like often enough or kind of speedily enough. You know, he took so long to respond to my messages. And, you know, I often think that the texting is like the currency of modern relationships, right? That's what a lot of us are doing in relationships is texting. And I realized later it's just the lack of texting, that lack of responsiveness did not make me feel loved. And that was at the heart of it. **Shankar Vedantam:** What did you hear when he did not text you quickly enough, Sonia? What went through your head? It's **Sonia Lubomirsky:** like, I don't care enough. Yeah, the worst interpretation is like something like, I don't care enough about your feelings. Like, I know you're waiting. And it's like this thing, this idea that he's like, if you really loved me, you would care, you would know how important it is to respond right away, and you still are not doing it. And so that's what's going on in my head. **Shankar Vedantam:** Did you have a breakup conversation where you actually told him the reason you were breaking up with him? Yes, **Sonia Lubomirsky:** and we actually have had that texting conversation repeatedly before the breakup. And, you know, and he would apologize, and he would sort of do better for a little while. And he would explain all the ways that he did show love to me, just not and not through texting. --- ### [Being Loved Is Not The Same As Feeling Loved](https://share.snipd.com/snip/2cbd3b61-fef1-4cc1-9d0a-81aca83de0dc) 🎧 14:54 - 15:59 (01:04) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/d6c209c8-f7b1-40a3-b6d7-ca0038d7c20d" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - Feeling loved and being loved are often different, and many people are loved yet still don't feel loved. - A survey Sonia Lubomirsky cites found ~70% report at least one relationship where they don't feel as loved as they'd like, including communities. #### 💬 Quote > I think the interesting case ... are the times when we are loved, but we don't feel loved. > — Sonia Lubomirsky Sonia Lubomirsky on the gap between being loved and feeling loved #### 📚 Transcript **Shankar Vedantam:** difference between being loved and feeling loved. Sonia, let's start there. I think most of us assume that being loved and feeling loved are the same thing, aren't they? I **Sonia Lubomirsky:** think often they are. But I think that the interesting case, you know, for me as a psychologist are the times when we are loved, but we don't feel loved. And it could be that we're not even seeing the, whatever the other person is doing to make us feel loved. We're not perceiving it. We're not somehow taking it in. We're not internalizing it. That love isn't being felt. How common do you think it is, **Shankar Vedantam:** this discrepancy between being loved and feeling loved? Do you think it happens a lot? I **Sonia Lubomirsky:** think it happens a lot. You know, Harry Reese, my co-author, and I did a survey where we asked people, are there relationships in your life that you sometimes don't feel as loved as you would like to be, you know, or as frequently as you'd like to be? And something I think like 70% said that, yes, there's at least one relationship in which I don't feel as loved as I want to be. I actually think that number is an understatement. You know, I actually think it's a lot higher than that. --- ### [Small Slights Signal Not Being Loved](https://share.snipd.com/snip/11070936-17de-42e3-8a85-e14a8db50347) 🎧 18:20 - 18:56 (00:35) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/a4f2ee2a-0356-4ca0-8e48-6a0b2b692b78" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - Common triggers for not feeling loved include not being invited, forgetting important events, and not being understood. - These events signal being unseen and drive perceptions of not being loved even when affection exists. #### 💬 Quote > Often it's not being invited... not remembering something important to you. > — Sonia Lubomirsky Sonia Lubomirsky on moments that make people feel unloved #### 📚 Transcript **Sonia Lubomirsky:** that they shared with you, Sonia? Often it's not being invited. Actually, that was a very common one, not being invited to something, sort of not being included to maybe a social event, not remembering something important to you. I think feeling loved is very highly related to sort of feeling understood. And so when people feel like, I'm not really seen, I'm not understood, that this person never asked me about this passion of mine. Forgetting a birthday. Often it's those kinds of events that really drive it home. --- ### [Reveal Blemishes At The Right Pace](https://share.snipd.com/snip/0853f64f-1eaf-4585-992f-657ea8e0a190) 🎧 25:59 - 26:52 (00:52) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/bd05932a-51b6-49b7-92e5-6a3ccf2294bc" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - Disclose vulnerabilities at the right pace instead of hiding flaws; showing blemishes can deepen connection. - Lubomirsky cites JFK's apology boosting approval as evidence that admitting mistakes can increase liking. #### 💬 Quote > One of the keys to feeling loved is being known to the other and if you're hiding your vulnerabilities ... you won't feel loved. > — Sonia Lubomirsky Sonia Lubomirsky on why showing imperfections fosters love #### 📚 Transcript **Sonia Lubomirsky:** because we think that that person wouldn't love me anymore if they kind of knew about this weakness of mine, this fault of mine, or this bad deed that I made. And, you know, we're not always wrong, right? I mean, sometimes people really do dislike others for certain traits or behaviors. But we do it, we sort of overdo it, we do it too much. And of the keys to feeling loved is being known to the other and if you're hiding you know your vulnerabilities your contradictions your sort of messy insights from the other person you won't feel loved because you'll always wonder if they really knew me then they wouldn't love me and it turns out that we often when we disclose or show some of those contradictions or blemishes at the right pace, right? We don't sort of dump them all at once. When the person already knows us a little bit, we often actually better liked. --- ### [Social Media Amplifies Performance Not Connection](https://share.snipd.com/snip/e74fe83f-f74b-46fe-af85-6311abf4799b) 🎧 29:22 - 30:30 (01:08) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/ef15fd48-588c-496b-a94e-fbec4d6afdfc" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - Social media amplifies performative displays, reducing genuine connection because posts lack personalized attention. - Sonia prefers a friend texting a joke directly because it signals they're thinking of you, which forges connection better than public posts. #### 💬 Quote > People are posting their most positive moments... You can't do that [connection] on social media. > — Sonia Lubomirsky Sonia Lubomirsky on how social media increases performance over intimacy #### 📚 Transcript **Shankar Vedantam:** You're presenting yourself. I'm someone who likes this kind of music. I'm someone who basically goes on these kinds of vacations. I'm someone who wears these kinds of And I would imagine that in some ways, social media is amplifying our drive to perform. **Sonia Lubomirsky:** Absolutely. Absolutely. People are posting sort of their most positive moments in their lives, right? This is me on my vacation looking really great. They're not posting so much about sort of the fullness of their life. talking, although it could be more than two people, but it's just easier to think about a dyad where you're really reading the room. You're really reading the other person and sort of, and asking them just the right level of deep question where they feel like they're really seen and heard where I, and I'm showing them I really care. You can't do that on social media. You know, it just, it doesn't come off, you know, so that's why like, if a friend shares a really funny joke on social media, you know, I might appreciate it. But I really appreciate it is they email me or they text me with that joke because I feel like they are, you know, they're thinking about me. They think that I would really appreciate that. --- ### [Make The Other Person Feel Loved First](https://share.snipd.com/snip/f1f4be52-5498-4f38-93d4-e754f2aa6e97) 🎧 33:15 - 34:16 (01:00) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/7f7ce241-8570-4b4c-bc05-490bffb3e91e" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - Change the conversations in your relationship rather than changing yourself or your partner to feel more loved. - Start by making the other person feel loved through genuine curiosity; reciprocity usually follows. #### 💬 Quote > What you have to change is the conversation... The first step is try to make the other person feel loved. > — Sonia Lubomirsky Sonia Lubomirsky advising on how to create feeling loved #### 📚 Transcript **Shankar Vedantam:** What **Sonia Lubomirsky:** I mean by this is that we think that to feel more loved, we need to change ourselves, sort of make ourselves more lovable and also show how lovable we are, hide our blemishes. Or maybe we change the other person. Maybe we try to get them to love us more, to somehow see our positive qualities more. But actually, it's good news. The conclusion that Harry and I reached is actually good news, which is that you don't have to change yourself. You don't have to change the other person. What you have to change is the conversation. And a relationship, again, is like a series of conversations. And it's a lot less overwhelming to think about it that way. Another huge insight that we had writing the book is that if I want to make myself feel loved, the first step is try to make the other person feel loved. That's really what comes first. And it's counterintuitive because we think like, again, we're focusing on ourselves. It's very, again, it's evolutionarily adaptive for us when there's a problem to focus on ourselves, figure out what's wrong. --- ### [The Seesaw Underwater Metaphor For Reciprocity](https://share.snipd.com/snip/c293b315-0cf8-46c5-ad65-95eb4a480fb1) 🎧 37:08 - 38:52 (01:44) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/84a69760-fbda-459d-bc6b-4ae4442648b4" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - The seesaw metaphor explains reciprocity: showing curiosity and warmth lifts the other person out of the water, enabling reciprocal openness. - Lifting someone requires temporarily submerging yourself, but mutual lifts restore balance. #### 💬 Quote > When I show genuine curiosity ... it's as though I'm pressing down on the seesaw and it lifts you up a little bit. > — Sonia Lubomirsky Sonia Lubomirsky on how asking and listening fosters mutual openness #### 📚 Transcript **Sonia Lubomirsky:** very powerful what we're talking about so the seesaw we spell see like underwater. And the reason we spell it this way is this idea that there's a seesaw underwater and we're sort of partially submerged and sort of say you and I are sitting on opposite end of the seesaw. So most of us are submerged, but maybe the top of our heads or the top of ourselves are showing. And that's what's going on in most of the world. Like we're showing just like a little tip of ourselves to one another, just kind of maybe the shiny parts, maybe the positive qualities, right? Most of us, like it's kind of the iceberg, right? It's under the water. We're not really showing to each other. And then the idea is that again, we're sitting on the seesaw. And then when I show genuine curiosity and interest in you, and I ask you a question, what has been on your mind lately? And I show warmth and acceptance, you feel a sense of warmth and trust and safety. And it's as though I'm pressing down on the seesaw. And it lifts you up a little bit. It lifts you up a little bit. So you're able to show a little bit more of yourself to me, right? You're able to reveal a little bit more of your inner self, a little more of your full self, maybe some vulnerabilities. and how difficult it was, I listen really well to you. I'm really listening. I'm asking questions. And that makes you even more, you know, feeling even more safe and trusting and even more comfortable, you know, sort of lifting more of yourself out of the water. And then that reciprocation happens, right? And then you ideally then reciprocate and then show interest and curiosity in myself and lift me out of the water. --- ### [Listen To Learn Not To Reply](https://share.snipd.com/snip/69048a9f-b25b-49a2-949e-2345be7d0cf2) 🎧 39:52 - 40:52 (00:59) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/b96a685b-81b8-4d2d-84e8-266f3d63be2d" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - Listen to learn, not to respond: ask follow-ups and remember details to show you care. - Sonia describes Marco who listened like 'there will be a quiz' and recalled specific past details to signal attention. #### 💬 Quote > Most of us listen to respond... This guy Marco was listening to learn. > — Sonia Lubomirsky Sonia Lubomirsky describing high-quality listening and Marco #### 📚 Transcript **Sonia Lubomirsky:** Marco was the best listener I've ever met in my life. And I don't know how he became such a great listener if it's just like genetic. I do think we can learn to be better listeners. But he also had a great memory too. So most of us listen to respond, right? So we're kind of like, while we're listening, ostensibly, we're really rehearsing what we're going to say next, right? And we're kind of waiting for the mic to be given back to us when you think about it. So this guy, Marco, was not doing this. He was listening to learn. Listening to learn is like listening like there's going to be a quiz tomorrow. **Greg Walton:** Right. And **Sonia Lubomirsky:** you would remember everything. And you would say, Sonia, remember that time you were telling me about your, you know, your mom and this happened and you were wearing a red, that red dress and you were sitting over there. It's so incredibly compelling. Right. Because you feel like, wow, he really cares about me. Like he's very thoughtful. He's paying attention. Right. And by the way, I don't have that kind of memory. --- ### [Coffee Shop Strangers Share Love Rituals](https://share.snipd.com/snip/440808dd-5a8e-4354-8ff3-5d32e25b6bca) 🎧 46:32 - 48:07 (01:35) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/ff7f4388-5353-4fdd-9d94-4d0c59073d14" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - While Sonia and Harry brainstormed in a Brooklyn coffee shop, strangers approached to share rituals that made them feel loved. - Examples included a shared Spotify playlist and a photo frame that lights up prompting single-word messages. #### 💬 Quote > One woman... said they have this shared Spotify list... Another person said they have a picture frame that lights up randomly throughout the day. > — Sonia Lubomirsky Sonia Lubomirsky recounting people sharing love-preserving rituals #### 📚 Transcript **Sonia Lubomirsky:** was actually incredible. So this was in January, last January in Brooklyn, New York. was sort of a dark, cold day. And this has never really happened anytime because I'm often in coffee shops talking to people, but I've never been sort of approached so consistently by others. So we were sort of brainstorming ideas for our book. And I would say at least three different people just came up to us and started talking to us. Like, you know, and some of them were one of them was really shy and said, I'm really sorry to interrupt, but I want to tell you. So they heard we were talking about feeling loved. And and so they gave us different stories from their lives. And sort of one woman, maybe 28 or something, her boyfriend, I think, lives in Mexico, she said. And so it's really hard for them to sort of maintain that relationship. It's distance. And so she mentioned how they have this shared Spotify list. And so on a regular basis, they will add songs to the shared list that are meaningful to them. And that makes them feel loved. Another person said that he and his partner have a picture frame that has a picture of the two of them. And it lights up kind of randomly throughout the day. And when it lights up, they send each other a word, just one word that sort of expresses their feelings. And it could be, you know, love. It could be yearning. It could be curiosity. It be loneliness, right? Sort of loneliness. And that makes them feel loved, to feel like that they really feel connected to the other person. And it was so beautiful. It was so beautiful that people kept, like, they wanted to share, which made us think that, like, wow, this is really hitting a nerve. --- ### [How Negative Spirals Self-Reinforce](https://share.snipd.com/snip/32053c7a-31f9-4407-bc19-23aa6fb43d38) 🎧 56:43 - 58:36 (01:53) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/340a3b9c-0502-4f6d-9a11-19bfbaaba8b7" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - Negative thought spirals begin when one bad thought primes the next, creating a self-reinforcing vortex. - Greg Walton frames this as automatic patterning where 'I did something bad, I'm bad' escalates without intervention. #### 💬 Quote > That experience of having one bad thought kind of primed the next thought. > — Greg Walton Greg Walton explaining the mechanics of spiraling thoughts #### 📚 Transcript **Shankar Vedantam:** How do we find our way out of such negative thought spirals? At Stanford University, psychologist Greg Walton studies how our minds can entrap us and what we can do to avoid these traps. Greg is the author of Ordinary Magic, the science of how we can achieve big change with small acts. He joined us on a recent episode of Hidden Brain titled U2.0, Stop Spiraling. Today, he's back on the show to respond to your questions and comments about that episode. Greg Walton, welcome back to Hidden Brain. Thank you for having me. Greg, I'm going to start by playing you a story of a listener who called in. Her name is Sherry, and she shared how she struggled with negative thought spirals as a young woman. It really escalated quite a bit as I grew out of my teens and into my 20s that it started to become so bad. You know, all of these thoughts about how I wasn't living up to who I should be. That was stupid. You shouldn't have said that. Why did you do that? Regrets about the past. These kinds of terrible looping thoughts that at some point had me thinking about suicide quite a bit. Because I just didn't think that there was a way out of all of that. I'm **Shankar Vedantam:** going to come back at the end of the show, Greg, with more of Sherry's story. Sherry tells us how she got out of her doom loop. But for now, can you start by talking about Sherry's experience of spiraling? What she went through is hardly unique, is it? **Greg Walton:** No, of course not at all. So that experience of having one bad thought kind of primed the next thought. So I did something bad, I'm bad. I did something else bad, I'm really bad. That vortex, as you describe it, makes a lot of sense. --- ### [Promote Growth Mindset After Setbacks](https://share.snipd.com/snip/5bc8b4cb-b35e-4db7-9778-722527c0e7de) 🎧 01:00:54 - 01:02:51 (01:56) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/25877bcc-b94f-4d66-b1c2-53d6f939fad9" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - Foster a growth mindset: frame failures as 'not yet' learning steps and support effort with guidance. - Walton suggests parents and teachers emphasize learning value and staying with students through hard material. #### 💬 Quote > When you make a mistake, it's not a sign that you're dumb... It's a sign that you haven't gotten something yet. > — Greg Walton Greg Walton on using growth mindset to prevent spirals #### 📚 Transcript **Shankar Vedantam:** Yeah, a fixed mindset is the **Greg Walton:** idea that you have a certain amount of intelligence. That's what you have. And you're either smart or you're not smart. And there's not much you can do to increase that. And if you have that fixed mindset and you approach a learning situation, maybe you take a math test, if you don't do very well, that fixed mindset tells you you're not good at this. You're not a math person. You shouldn't try at this. And it leads people to become unresilient when they're faced with learning challenges. **Shankar Vedantam:** You've done research looking at how students can avoid spirals and cultivate what's called a growth mindset. So for a parent like Lucia, who is basically dealing with the 16-year son who feels like his life is over, how would you recommend she deploy this idea of a growth mindset to help her son, Greg? **Greg Walton:** Yeah. So I think one thing to say is that Lucia's role is one important role as a parent. And there's other people around that child too, including all of the educators around them who are playing important roles and all of the peers around that child as well. And what all of those actors want to be able to do in that circumstance is really talk about the value of learning and growth and the opportunity for learning and growth. So when you make a mistake, it's not a sign that you're dumb, that would be a tiff bit. It's a sign that you haven't gotten something yet. You know, just in the same way that a toddler who falls down as they're learning to walk, they're not a non-walker, right? They're just a child who hasn't yet gotten the competency of walking. So in math class, if you fail a test, that means you don't understand that material yet. And the parent's role and the teacher's role and the peer's role is all to come together to support that learning process, to play their roles well. --- ### [Write It Out To Break Rumination](https://share.snipd.com/snip/c9acd5c3-92d5-4831-9ed2-7aefafb98eed) 🎧 01:20:01 - 01:21:08 (01:06) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/976c6c58-fba0-4d76-ac69-9b18e4f09dd9" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - Try expressive writing to break rumination: write deepest thoughts to create a narrative with a beginning, middle, and end. - Walton cites Pennebaker's method as a way to pin down worries and stop repetitive 'I'm bad' loops. #### 💬 Quote > If you write it down... you can tell a story that has an end and kind of put a pin on it. > — Greg Walton Greg Walton recommending expressive writing to stop spirals #### 📚 Transcript **Greg Walton:** And what this is, is really just taking the time to write about the deepest thoughts and feelings that you have, especially thoughts and feelings that aren't yet processed. And it's helpful because it helps people to tell stories of challenges that have a beginning, a middle, and an end, and to kind of stop that ruminative cycle that I could hear Chris worrying about and that the caller at the beginning, Sherry, I think was describing as well, that kind of ruminative thought cycle. Because if you write it down, it's ridiculous to write something down like, I'm bad, I did something bad, I'm bad, I did something bad, I'm bad, I did something bad. Like that's a boring, that's not going to work. So when you write it down, you can tell a story that has an end and kind of put a pin on it. And then once you've put a pin on it, you can start to do the second part of the work and to think about what you want to do with the time that you have and the circumstance that you're in, what would be of meaning to you, what would be of value to you. --- ### [A Single Act Of Belief Can Change Trajectories](https://share.snipd.com/snip/1dd1f3bd-93aa-4d62-b541-774e79833f17) 🎧 01:23:23 - 01:24:27 (01:04) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/6cc2f5b1-7ede-480e-8e6d-f66c529b77fd" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - Being seen by someone with authority can unlock one's sense of potential and reverse downward spirals. - Walton recounts an alum whose boss declared 'this is going to be one of our stars', which transformed his self-view and career trajectory. #### 💬 Quote > He says, 'this is going to be one of our stars.' And that was the moment that he realized that he could become the kind of worker that he wanted to become. > — Greg Walton Greg Walton on how endorsement from a superior sparked growth #### 📚 Transcript **Greg Walton:** And one of the people there, he told a story. He'd started work at a company he long admired, a company he greatly respected, a company he was proud to be at, but he felt he was floundering. He didn't feel he understood his job well. He thought he was not doing well. He was worried he might get laid off. He was in the probationary period. And the company was, his office was in Orange County, but the company had a headquarters on the East Coast. And the boss of his boss came in one day from the East Coast. And so his boss and his boss of his boss are standing near his desk talking, but not to him. And then his boss comes to his desk and puts his hand on his shoulder. And he says, this is going to be one of our stars. This is going to be one of our people. And the boss boss then introduces himself and shows the person a great deal of respect. And he told this story and he said that that was the moment that he realized that he could become the kind of worker at this company that he wanted to become. --- ### [Break Challenges Into Proximal Goals](https://share.snipd.com/snip/727f7b9a-0854-4122-8365-8963a3e51de2) 🎧 01:27:16 - 01:28:14 (00:58) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/7fa96723-fbb9-4ad3-bfcb-62d31876494f" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - Use proximal goals: break big problems into specific daily targets to build confidence and momentum. - Bandura-style study: telling kids 'do six pages per day' beat 'do as many as you can' for math progress. #### 💬 Quote > Do six pages per day... That increased kids' confidence in their ability to do math, and it increased their performance. > — Greg Walton Greg Walton on proximal goals improving outcomes #### 📚 Transcript **Shankar Vedantam:** Yeah, absolutely. So we call this proximal goals. **Greg Walton:** And this was an idea that was researched in the 80s by my colleague, Al Bandura, studying originally kids who were really struggling in math. So these were elementary school kids who were way behind in math. And in one of the studies that he did, he gave kids a bunch of math worksheets. And in one condition, he said, do as many as you can. And in the other condition, he said, do six pages per day. And it's the same thing, but the six pages per day breaks it down and says, here's what my goal is. I'm going to do six pages per day. And that increased kids' confidence in their ability to do math, and it increased their performance in math. And the psychology of it is really that when you break it down into manageable bits and you work on each bit and you accomplish each bit, you feel a little bit better. --- ### [Use Checkpoints To Stop Constant Ruminating](https://share.snipd.com/snip/aff18ade-29e2-44c7-a0f7-b2214867e63e) 🎧 01:28:44 - 01:29:34 (00:50) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/a0282bfa-381e-4e2a-9d06-aaccae55a08f" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - Set checkpoints for decisions to avoid daily rumination; schedule reassessments instead of constant worry. - Estelle used a six-month check to judge job fit, which freed daily energy and clarified exit plans. #### 💬 Quote > I said in six months from now... In six months I'm going to ask myself honestly, do I love it here? > — Estelle (listener) Listener Estelle describing using checkpoints to assess job fit #### 📚 Transcript said in six months from now, I just started a new job. In six months, I'm going to ask myself honestly, do I love it here? Is this where I want to be? And six months go by and I didn't lose that job. But when I asked myself honestly at the six month checkpoint, is this how I want to feel? The answer was no. I didn't enjoy what I was doing. I didn't want to keep doing what I was doing for the rest of my life. I started figuring out what my exit plan was going to be and I decided I was going to go back to school and I was going to completely change my career. I still use this strategy now. I set checkpoints for myself, and I give myself reasonable metrics that I can keep track of and check in with myself at some later point and see if something is still working for me or if it's not. And if it's not, then I can change it. --- ### [Use Loved Ones To Pull You Out Of Spirals](https://share.snipd.com/snip/0d7c4b22-0692-4ff0-a3b2-863ee61aa96c) 🎧 01:32:39 - 01:33:38 (00:59) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/46c6ec83-5888-4d9a-a150-695e35339e04" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - Lean on others when spiraling: seek visits, supportive friends, and new routines to re-enter upward momentum. - Listener Mark used travel, family time, and a new partner's healthy habits to shed addictions and start upward growth. #### 💬 Quote > I needed to use people who love me to help me get out of this spiral... When I came back, I was ready to start life again. > — Mark (listener) Listener Mark on relying on social support after bereavement #### 📚 Transcript **Greg Walton:** I mean, they're essential. We are a social animal and we do not do any of this work by ourselves. We always do it with other people. Mark's story is a beautiful story, a beautiful story of self-insight and of leaning on others and of, you know, when you're in a very dark space, like if you've lost a spouse, for example, who you love very much, and I could hear that in Mark's voice, the world can seem very dark. And then if you can interact with people who aren't in that headspace and people who care about you and people who can share with you other ways of viewing the world, opportunities, things that are of interest, those opportunities and things that are of interest can come into your way of seeing as well. And I think that that's part of the story that Mark is telling us there. And it's a lesson for all of us. --- ### [Love Lists Stopped A Suicidal Thought Loop](https://share.snipd.com/snip/46d62a84-3c12-4d16-980b-ff34ef17af14) 🎧 01:33:52 - 01:34:59 (01:07) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/d819744f-e8f4-4044-8f78-5e477fd6fd1c" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - Sherry escaped suicidal spirals by writing 'love lists'—lists of reasons she loved her mother—which displaced looping negative thoughts. - She now uses love lists as gratitude, meditation, and a gift to others to reduce rumination. #### 💬 Quote > When I started to make this list of reasons why I love my mother... those other looping negative spiraling voices didn't have space. > — Sherry (listener) Listener Sherry on using love lists to overcome spirals #### 📚 Transcript kinds of terrible looping thoughts that at some point had me thinking about suicide quite a bit, because I just didn't think that there was a way out of all of that. Something dropped into me one day to make a list of reasons why I loved my mom. And when I started to make this list of reasons why I love my mother, I realized, maybe not quite right at that exact moment, but down the road, I realized looking back that when I was immersed in thinking about why I love someone, that those other looping negative spiraling voices didn't have space. They weren't there. This became a lifelong practice for me. This was 30 some years ago that I made that very first list. I now I call them love lists and it's a tool that I use as a combination of a gratitude tool, a personal development tool, a meditation tool, and it's a gift. --- ### [Label Thoughts And Diagnose Root Causes](https://share.snipd.com/snip/f2626666-e192-40da-93bd-f0881ccc35d2) 🎧 01:35:55 - 01:37:04 (01:08) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/de97c69d-5b44-4202-a8ed-44b292526e5f" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - Use meta-awareness and labeling: note that anxious spirals are temporary thoughts and ask what's the root cause. - Walton practices writing anxieties down and diagnosing their origin to address underlying issues rather than symptoms. #### 💬 Quote > This is a thought, this is a time of anxiety... If I could figure out that reason, I can work on the thing that actually matters. > — Greg Walton Greg Walton on meta-awareness to escape spirals #### 📚 Transcript **Greg Walton:** Yeah, I mean, I think definitely the kind of, you know, 3am anxiety experience, like anxiety peaks, you know, early in the morning, you can't sleep, you wake up. I think one thing that helps is to just write down the things that you're anxious about, right? So you that's something I've definitely done. I think another thing that helps me is just the kind of meta-awareness that this is, it's almost a mindfulness, is that this is a this is a time of anxiety, and things will look a little bit different at a different time, maybe from a different perspective, maybe just at 10 in the morning in light of a conversation with somebody I care about or somebody who cares about me. So that meta-awareness is also helpful. And I think that the surfacing is really important to be able to say what it is and then to kind of diagnose it. Like, where is it that that is coming from? Why is it that I'm having this anxiety at this time? There's a reason for I might not know the reason for that, but there's a reason for that. And if I could figure out that reason, it's almost like understanding the root cause. --- Created with [Snipd](https://www.snipd.com) | Highlight & Take Notes from Podcasts # Snips updated after 2026-04-05T10:16:17 ### [Breakup Over Texting Responsiveness](https://share.snipd.com/snip/b16fd5b1-d056-44ae-ba2b-aa3fba3f9977) 🎧 08:47 - 10:26 (01:38) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/a2b81c07-18d4-4532-b40d-a7f29d16fa1a" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - Sonia ended a relationship because her partner didn't text quickly enough and she interpreted slow replies as not caring. - He showed love in other ways, but the texting currency mattered more to her and ultimately led to the breakup. #### 💬 Quote > The main reason was he just didn't text me like often enough or kind of speedily enough. > — Sonia Lubomirsky Sonia Lubomirsky recounting why she broke off a relationship #### 📚 Transcript **Shankar Vedantam:** Tell me what happened. I had a **Sonia Lubomirsky:** relationship with someone who really did love me, who I knew loved me, but I actually broke it off. And it's going to sound almost crazy about what the main reason was that I broke it off. And the main reason was he just didn't text me like often enough or kind of speedily enough. You know, he took so long to respond to my messages. And, you know, I often think that the texting is like the currency of modern relationships, right? That's what a lot of us are doing in relationships is texting. And I realized later it's just the lack of texting, that lack of responsiveness did not make me feel loved. And that was at the heart of it. **Shankar Vedantam:** What did you hear when he did not text you quickly enough, Sonia? What went through your head? It's **Sonia Lubomirsky:** like, I don't care enough. Yeah, the worst interpretation is like something like, I don't care enough about your feelings. Like, I know you're waiting. And it's like this thing, this idea that he's like, if you really loved me, you would care, you would know how important it is to respond right away, and you still are not doing it. And so that's what's going on in my head. **Shankar Vedantam:** Did you have a breakup conversation where you actually told him the reason you were breaking up with him? Yes, **Sonia Lubomirsky:** and we actually have had that texting conversation repeatedly before the breakup. And, you know, and he would apologize, and he would sort of do better for a little while. And he would explain all the ways that he did show love to me, just not and not through texting. --- ### [Being Loved Is Not The Same As Feeling Loved](https://share.snipd.com/snip/2cbd3b61-fef1-4cc1-9d0a-81aca83de0dc) 🎧 14:54 - 15:59 (01:04) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/d6c209c8-f7b1-40a3-b6d7-ca0038d7c20d" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - Feeling loved and being loved are often different, and many people are loved yet still don't feel loved. - A survey Sonia Lubomirsky cites found ~70% report at least one relationship where they don't feel as loved as they'd like, including communities. #### 💬 Quote > I think the interesting case ... are the times when we are loved, but we don't feel loved. > — Sonia Lubomirsky Sonia Lubomirsky on the gap between being loved and feeling loved #### 📚 Transcript **Shankar Vedantam:** difference between being loved and feeling loved. Sonia, let's start there. I think most of us assume that being loved and feeling loved are the same thing, aren't they? I **Sonia Lubomirsky:** think often they are. But I think that the interesting case, you know, for me as a psychologist are the times when we are loved, but we don't feel loved. And it could be that we're not even seeing the, whatever the other person is doing to make us feel loved. We're not perceiving it. We're not somehow taking it in. We're not internalizing it. That love isn't being felt. How common do you think it is, **Shankar Vedantam:** this discrepancy between being loved and feeling loved? Do you think it happens a lot? I **Sonia Lubomirsky:** think it happens a lot. You know, Harry Reese, my co-author, and I did a survey where we asked people, are there relationships in your life that you sometimes don't feel as loved as you would like to be, you know, or as frequently as you'd like to be? And something I think like 70% said that, yes, there's at least one relationship in which I don't feel as loved as I want to be. I actually think that number is an understatement. You know, I actually think it's a lot higher than that. --- ### [Small Slights Signal Not Being Loved](https://share.snipd.com/snip/11070936-17de-42e3-8a85-e14a8db50347) 🎧 18:20 - 18:56 (00:35) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/a4f2ee2a-0356-4ca0-8e48-6a0b2b692b78" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - Common triggers for not feeling loved include not being invited, forgetting important events, and not being understood. - These events signal being unseen and drive perceptions of not being loved even when affection exists. #### 💬 Quote > Often it's not being invited... not remembering something important to you. > — Sonia Lubomirsky Sonia Lubomirsky on moments that make people feel unloved #### 📚 Transcript **Sonia Lubomirsky:** that they shared with you, Sonia? Often it's not being invited. Actually, that was a very common one, not being invited to something, sort of not being included to maybe a social event, not remembering something important to you. I think feeling loved is very highly related to sort of feeling understood. And so when people feel like, I'm not really seen, I'm not understood, that this person never asked me about this passion of mine. Forgetting a birthday. Often it's those kinds of events that really drive it home. --- ### [Reveal Blemishes At The Right Pace](https://share.snipd.com/snip/0853f64f-1eaf-4585-992f-657ea8e0a190) 🎧 25:59 - 26:52 (00:52) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/bd05932a-51b6-49b7-92e5-6a3ccf2294bc" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - Disclose vulnerabilities at the right pace instead of hiding flaws; showing blemishes can deepen connection. - Lubomirsky cites JFK's apology boosting approval as evidence that admitting mistakes can increase liking. #### 💬 Quote > One of the keys to feeling loved is being known to the other and if you're hiding your vulnerabilities ... you won't feel loved. > — Sonia Lubomirsky Sonia Lubomirsky on why showing imperfections fosters love #### 📚 Transcript **Sonia Lubomirsky:** because we think that that person wouldn't love me anymore if they kind of knew about this weakness of mine, this fault of mine, or this bad deed that I made. And, you know, we're not always wrong, right? I mean, sometimes people really do dislike others for certain traits or behaviors. But we do it, we sort of overdo it, we do it too much. And of the keys to feeling loved is being known to the other and if you're hiding you know your vulnerabilities your contradictions your sort of messy insights from the other person you won't feel loved because you'll always wonder if they really knew me then they wouldn't love me and it turns out that we often when we disclose or show some of those contradictions or blemishes at the right pace, right? We don't sort of dump them all at once. When the person already knows us a little bit, we often actually better liked. --- ### [Social Media Amplifies Performance Not Connection](https://share.snipd.com/snip/e74fe83f-f74b-46fe-af85-6311abf4799b) 🎧 29:22 - 30:30 (01:08) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/ef15fd48-588c-496b-a94e-fbec4d6afdfc" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - Social media amplifies performative displays, reducing genuine connection because posts lack personalized attention. - Sonia prefers a friend texting a joke directly because it signals they're thinking of you, which forges connection better than public posts. #### 💬 Quote > People are posting their most positive moments... You can't do that [connection] on social media. > — Sonia Lubomirsky Sonia Lubomirsky on how social media increases performance over intimacy #### 📚 Transcript **Shankar Vedantam:** You're presenting yourself. I'm someone who likes this kind of music. I'm someone who basically goes on these kinds of vacations. I'm someone who wears these kinds of And I would imagine that in some ways, social media is amplifying our drive to perform. **Sonia Lubomirsky:** Absolutely. Absolutely. People are posting sort of their most positive moments in their lives, right? This is me on my vacation looking really great. They're not posting so much about sort of the fullness of their life. talking, although it could be more than two people, but it's just easier to think about a dyad where you're really reading the room. You're really reading the other person and sort of, and asking them just the right level of deep question where they feel like they're really seen and heard where I, and I'm showing them I really care. You can't do that on social media. You know, it just, it doesn't come off, you know, so that's why like, if a friend shares a really funny joke on social media, you know, I might appreciate it. But I really appreciate it is they email me or they text me with that joke because I feel like they are, you know, they're thinking about me. They think that I would really appreciate that. --- ### [Make The Other Person Feel Loved First](https://share.snipd.com/snip/f1f4be52-5498-4f38-93d4-e754f2aa6e97) 🎧 33:15 - 34:16 (01:00) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/7f7ce241-8570-4b4c-bc05-490bffb3e91e" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - Change the conversations in your relationship rather than changing yourself or your partner to feel more loved. - Start by making the other person feel loved through genuine curiosity; reciprocity usually follows. #### 💬 Quote > What you have to change is the conversation... The first step is try to make the other person feel loved. > — Sonia Lubomirsky Sonia Lubomirsky advising on how to create feeling loved #### 📚 Transcript **Shankar Vedantam:** What **Sonia Lubomirsky:** I mean by this is that we think that to feel more loved, we need to change ourselves, sort of make ourselves more lovable and also show how lovable we are, hide our blemishes. Or maybe we change the other person. Maybe we try to get them to love us more, to somehow see our positive qualities more. But actually, it's good news. The conclusion that Harry and I reached is actually good news, which is that you don't have to change yourself. You don't have to change the other person. What you have to change is the conversation. And a relationship, again, is like a series of conversations. And it's a lot less overwhelming to think about it that way. Another huge insight that we had writing the book is that if I want to make myself feel loved, the first step is try to make the other person feel loved. That's really what comes first. And it's counterintuitive because we think like, again, we're focusing on ourselves. It's very, again, it's evolutionarily adaptive for us when there's a problem to focus on ourselves, figure out what's wrong. --- ### [The Seesaw Underwater Metaphor For Reciprocity](https://share.snipd.com/snip/c293b315-0cf8-46c5-ad65-95eb4a480fb1) 🎧 37:08 - 38:52 (01:44) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/84a69760-fbda-459d-bc6b-4ae4442648b4" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - The seesaw metaphor explains reciprocity: showing curiosity and warmth lifts the other person out of the water, enabling reciprocal openness. - Lifting someone requires temporarily submerging yourself, but mutual lifts restore balance. #### 💬 Quote > When I show genuine curiosity ... it's as though I'm pressing down on the seesaw and it lifts you up a little bit. > — Sonia Lubomirsky Sonia Lubomirsky on how asking and listening fosters mutual openness #### 📚 Transcript **Sonia Lubomirsky:** very powerful what we're talking about so the seesaw we spell see like underwater. And the reason we spell it this way is this idea that there's a seesaw underwater and we're sort of partially submerged and sort of say you and I are sitting on opposite end of the seesaw. So most of us are submerged, but maybe the top of our heads or the top of ourselves are showing. And that's what's going on in most of the world. Like we're showing just like a little tip of ourselves to one another, just kind of maybe the shiny parts, maybe the positive qualities, right? Most of us, like it's kind of the iceberg, right? It's under the water. We're not really showing to each other. And then the idea is that again, we're sitting on the seesaw. And then when I show genuine curiosity and interest in you, and I ask you a question, what has been on your mind lately? And I show warmth and acceptance, you feel a sense of warmth and trust and safety. And it's as though I'm pressing down on the seesaw. And it lifts you up a little bit. It lifts you up a little bit. So you're able to show a little bit more of yourself to me, right? You're able to reveal a little bit more of your inner self, a little more of your full self, maybe some vulnerabilities. and how difficult it was, I listen really well to you. I'm really listening. I'm asking questions. And that makes you even more, you know, feeling even more safe and trusting and even more comfortable, you know, sort of lifting more of yourself out of the water. And then that reciprocation happens, right? And then you ideally then reciprocate and then show interest and curiosity in myself and lift me out of the water. --- ### [Listen To Learn Not To Reply](https://share.snipd.com/snip/69048a9f-b25b-49a2-949e-2345be7d0cf2) 🎧 39:52 - 40:52 (00:59) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/b96a685b-81b8-4d2d-84e8-266f3d63be2d" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - Listen to learn, not to respond: ask follow-ups and remember details to show you care. - Sonia describes Marco who listened like 'there will be a quiz' and recalled specific past details to signal attention. #### 💬 Quote > Most of us listen to respond... This guy Marco was listening to learn. > — Sonia Lubomirsky Sonia Lubomirsky describing high-quality listening and Marco #### 📚 Transcript **Sonia Lubomirsky:** Marco was the best listener I've ever met in my life. And I don't know how he became such a great listener if it's just like genetic. I do think we can learn to be better listeners. But he also had a great memory too. So most of us listen to respond, right? So we're kind of like, while we're listening, ostensibly, we're really rehearsing what we're going to say next, right? And we're kind of waiting for the mic to be given back to us when you think about it. So this guy, Marco, was not doing this. He was listening to learn. Listening to learn is like listening like there's going to be a quiz tomorrow. **Greg Walton:** Right. And **Sonia Lubomirsky:** you would remember everything. And you would say, Sonia, remember that time you were telling me about your, you know, your mom and this happened and you were wearing a red, that red dress and you were sitting over there. It's so incredibly compelling. Right. Because you feel like, wow, he really cares about me. Like he's very thoughtful. He's paying attention. Right. And by the way, I don't have that kind of memory. --- ### [Coffee Shop Strangers Share Love Rituals](https://share.snipd.com/snip/440808dd-5a8e-4354-8ff3-5d32e25b6bca) 🎧 46:32 - 48:07 (01:35) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/ff7f4388-5353-4fdd-9d94-4d0c59073d14" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - While Sonia and Harry brainstormed in a Brooklyn coffee shop, strangers approached to share rituals that made them feel loved. - Examples included a shared Spotify playlist and a photo frame that lights up prompting single-word messages. #### 💬 Quote > One woman... said they have this shared Spotify list... Another person said they have a picture frame that lights up randomly throughout the day. > — Sonia Lubomirsky Sonia Lubomirsky recounting people sharing love-preserving rituals #### 📚 Transcript **Sonia Lubomirsky:** was actually incredible. So this was in January, last January in Brooklyn, New York. was sort of a dark, cold day. And this has never really happened anytime because I'm often in coffee shops talking to people, but I've never been sort of approached so consistently by others. So we were sort of brainstorming ideas for our book. And I would say at least three different people just came up to us and started talking to us. Like, you know, and some of them were one of them was really shy and said, I'm really sorry to interrupt, but I want to tell you. So they heard we were talking about feeling loved. And and so they gave us different stories from their lives. And sort of one woman, maybe 28 or something, her boyfriend, I think, lives in Mexico, she said. And so it's really hard for them to sort of maintain that relationship. It's distance. And so she mentioned how they have this shared Spotify list. And so on a regular basis, they will add songs to the shared list that are meaningful to them. And that makes them feel loved. Another person said that he and his partner have a picture frame that has a picture of the two of them. And it lights up kind of randomly throughout the day. And when it lights up, they send each other a word, just one word that sort of expresses their feelings. And it could be, you know, love. It could be yearning. It could be curiosity. It be loneliness, right? Sort of loneliness. And that makes them feel loved, to feel like that they really feel connected to the other person. And it was so beautiful. It was so beautiful that people kept, like, they wanted to share, which made us think that, like, wow, this is really hitting a nerve. --- ### [How Negative Spirals Self-Reinforce](https://share.snipd.com/snip/32053c7a-31f9-4407-bc19-23aa6fb43d38) 🎧 56:43 - 58:36 (01:53) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/340a3b9c-0502-4f6d-9a11-19bfbaaba8b7" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - Negative thought spirals begin when one bad thought primes the next, creating a self-reinforcing vortex. - Greg Walton frames this as automatic patterning where 'I did something bad, I'm bad' escalates without intervention. #### 💬 Quote > That experience of having one bad thought kind of primed the next thought. > — Greg Walton Greg Walton explaining the mechanics of spiraling thoughts #### 📚 Transcript **Shankar Vedantam:** How do we find our way out of such negative thought spirals? At Stanford University, psychologist Greg Walton studies how our minds can entrap us and what we can do to avoid these traps. Greg is the author of Ordinary Magic, the science of how we can achieve big change with small acts. He joined us on a recent episode of Hidden Brain titled U2.0, Stop Spiraling. Today, he's back on the show to respond to your questions and comments about that episode. Greg Walton, welcome back to Hidden Brain. Thank you for having me. Greg, I'm going to start by playing you a story of a listener who called in. Her name is Sherry, and she shared how she struggled with negative thought spirals as a young woman. It really escalated quite a bit as I grew out of my teens and into my 20s that it started to become so bad. You know, all of these thoughts about how I wasn't living up to who I should be. That was stupid. You shouldn't have said that. Why did you do that? Regrets about the past. These kinds of terrible looping thoughts that at some point had me thinking about suicide quite a bit. Because I just didn't think that there was a way out of all of that. I'm **Shankar Vedantam:** going to come back at the end of the show, Greg, with more of Sherry's story. Sherry tells us how she got out of her doom loop. But for now, can you start by talking about Sherry's experience of spiraling? What she went through is hardly unique, is it? **Greg Walton:** No, of course not at all. So that experience of having one bad thought kind of primed the next thought. So I did something bad, I'm bad. I did something else bad, I'm really bad. That vortex, as you describe it, makes a lot of sense. --- ### [Promote Growth Mindset After Setbacks](https://share.snipd.com/snip/5bc8b4cb-b35e-4db7-9778-722527c0e7de) 🎧 01:00:54 - 01:02:51 (01:56) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/25877bcc-b94f-4d66-b1c2-53d6f939fad9" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - Foster a growth mindset: frame failures as 'not yet' learning steps and support effort with guidance. - Walton suggests parents and teachers emphasize learning value and staying with students through hard material. #### 💬 Quote > When you make a mistake, it's not a sign that you're dumb... It's a sign that you haven't gotten something yet. > — Greg Walton Greg Walton on using growth mindset to prevent spirals #### 📚 Transcript **Shankar Vedantam:** Yeah, a fixed mindset is the **Greg Walton:** idea that you have a certain amount of intelligence. That's what you have. And you're either smart or you're not smart. And there's not much you can do to increase that. And if you have that fixed mindset and you approach a learning situation, maybe you take a math test, if you don't do very well, that fixed mindset tells you you're not good at this. You're not a math person. You shouldn't try at this. And it leads people to become unresilient when they're faced with learning challenges. **Shankar Vedantam:** You've done research looking at how students can avoid spirals and cultivate what's called a growth mindset. So for a parent like Lucia, who is basically dealing with the 16-year son who feels like his life is over, how would you recommend she deploy this idea of a growth mindset to help her son, Greg? **Greg Walton:** Yeah. So I think one thing to say is that Lucia's role is one important role as a parent. And there's other people around that child too, including all of the educators around them who are playing important roles and all of the peers around that child as well. And what all of those actors want to be able to do in that circumstance is really talk about the value of learning and growth and the opportunity for learning and growth. So when you make a mistake, it's not a sign that you're dumb, that would be a tiff bit. It's a sign that you haven't gotten something yet. You know, just in the same way that a toddler who falls down as they're learning to walk, they're not a non-walker, right? They're just a child who hasn't yet gotten the competency of walking. So in math class, if you fail a test, that means you don't understand that material yet. And the parent's role and the teacher's role and the peer's role is all to come together to support that learning process, to play their roles well. --- ### [Write It Out To Break Rumination](https://share.snipd.com/snip/c9acd5c3-92d5-4831-9ed2-7aefafb98eed) 🎧 01:20:01 - 01:21:08 (01:06) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/976c6c58-fba0-4d76-ac69-9b18e4f09dd9" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - Try expressive writing to break rumination: write deepest thoughts to create a narrative with a beginning, middle, and end. - Walton cites Pennebaker's method as a way to pin down worries and stop repetitive 'I'm bad' loops. #### 💬 Quote > If you write it down... you can tell a story that has an end and kind of put a pin on it. > — Greg Walton Greg Walton recommending expressive writing to stop spirals #### 📚 Transcript **Greg Walton:** And what this is, is really just taking the time to write about the deepest thoughts and feelings that you have, especially thoughts and feelings that aren't yet processed. And it's helpful because it helps people to tell stories of challenges that have a beginning, a middle, and an end, and to kind of stop that ruminative cycle that I could hear Chris worrying about and that the caller at the beginning, Sherry, I think was describing as well, that kind of ruminative thought cycle. Because if you write it down, it's ridiculous to write something down like, I'm bad, I did something bad, I'm bad, I did something bad, I'm bad, I did something bad. Like that's a boring, that's not going to work. So when you write it down, you can tell a story that has an end and kind of put a pin on it. And then once you've put a pin on it, you can start to do the second part of the work and to think about what you want to do with the time that you have and the circumstance that you're in, what would be of meaning to you, what would be of value to you. --- ### [A Single Act Of Belief Can Change Trajectories](https://share.snipd.com/snip/1dd1f3bd-93aa-4d62-b541-774e79833f17) 🎧 01:23:23 - 01:24:27 (01:04) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/6cc2f5b1-7ede-480e-8e6d-f66c529b77fd" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - Being seen by someone with authority can unlock one's sense of potential and reverse downward spirals. - Walton recounts an alum whose boss declared 'this is going to be one of our stars', which transformed his self-view and career trajectory. #### 💬 Quote > He says, 'this is going to be one of our stars.' And that was the moment that he realized that he could become the kind of worker that he wanted to become. > — Greg Walton Greg Walton on how endorsement from a superior sparked growth #### 📚 Transcript **Greg Walton:** And one of the people there, he told a story. He'd started work at a company he long admired, a company he greatly respected, a company he was proud to be at, but he felt he was floundering. He didn't feel he understood his job well. He thought he was not doing well. He was worried he might get laid off. He was in the probationary period. And the company was, his office was in Orange County, but the company had a headquarters on the East Coast. And the boss of his boss came in one day from the East Coast. And so his boss and his boss of his boss are standing near his desk talking, but not to him. And then his boss comes to his desk and puts his hand on his shoulder. And he says, this is going to be one of our stars. This is going to be one of our people. And the boss boss then introduces himself and shows the person a great deal of respect. And he told this story and he said that that was the moment that he realized that he could become the kind of worker at this company that he wanted to become. --- ### [Break Challenges Into Proximal Goals](https://share.snipd.com/snip/727f7b9a-0854-4122-8365-8963a3e51de2) 🎧 01:27:16 - 01:28:14 (00:58) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/7fa96723-fbb9-4ad3-bfcb-62d31876494f" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - Use proximal goals: break big problems into specific daily targets to build confidence and momentum. - Bandura-style study: telling kids 'do six pages per day' beat 'do as many as you can' for math progress. #### 💬 Quote > Do six pages per day... That increased kids' confidence in their ability to do math, and it increased their performance. > — Greg Walton Greg Walton on proximal goals improving outcomes #### 📚 Transcript **Shankar Vedantam:** Yeah, absolutely. So we call this proximal goals. **Greg Walton:** And this was an idea that was researched in the 80s by my colleague, Al Bandura, studying originally kids who were really struggling in math. So these were elementary school kids who were way behind in math. And in one of the studies that he did, he gave kids a bunch of math worksheets. And in one condition, he said, do as many as you can. And in the other condition, he said, do six pages per day. And it's the same thing, but the six pages per day breaks it down and says, here's what my goal is. I'm going to do six pages per day. And that increased kids' confidence in their ability to do math, and it increased their performance in math. And the psychology of it is really that when you break it down into manageable bits and you work on each bit and you accomplish each bit, you feel a little bit better. --- ### [Use Checkpoints To Stop Constant Ruminating](https://share.snipd.com/snip/aff18ade-29e2-44c7-a0f7-b2214867e63e) 🎧 01:28:44 - 01:29:34 (00:50) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/a0282bfa-381e-4e2a-9d06-aaccae55a08f" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - Set checkpoints for decisions to avoid daily rumination; schedule reassessments instead of constant worry. - Estelle used a six-month check to judge job fit, which freed daily energy and clarified exit plans. #### 💬 Quote > I said in six months from now... In six months I'm going to ask myself honestly, do I love it here? > — Estelle (listener) Listener Estelle describing using checkpoints to assess job fit #### 📚 Transcript said in six months from now, I just started a new job. In six months, I'm going to ask myself honestly, do I love it here? Is this where I want to be? And six months go by and I didn't lose that job. But when I asked myself honestly at the six month checkpoint, is this how I want to feel? The answer was no. I didn't enjoy what I was doing. I didn't want to keep doing what I was doing for the rest of my life. I started figuring out what my exit plan was going to be and I decided I was going to go back to school and I was going to completely change my career. I still use this strategy now. I set checkpoints for myself, and I give myself reasonable metrics that I can keep track of and check in with myself at some later point and see if something is still working for me or if it's not. And if it's not, then I can change it. --- ### [Use Loved Ones To Pull You Out Of Spirals](https://share.snipd.com/snip/0d7c4b22-0692-4ff0-a3b2-863ee61aa96c) 🎧 01:32:39 - 01:33:38 (00:59) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/46c6ec83-5888-4d9a-a150-695e35339e04" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - Lean on others when spiraling: seek visits, supportive friends, and new routines to re-enter upward momentum. - Listener Mark used travel, family time, and a new partner's healthy habits to shed addictions and start upward growth. #### 💬 Quote > I needed to use people who love me to help me get out of this spiral... When I came back, I was ready to start life again. > — Mark (listener) Listener Mark on relying on social support after bereavement #### 📚 Transcript **Greg Walton:** I mean, they're essential. We are a social animal and we do not do any of this work by ourselves. We always do it with other people. Mark's story is a beautiful story, a beautiful story of self-insight and of leaning on others and of, you know, when you're in a very dark space, like if you've lost a spouse, for example, who you love very much, and I could hear that in Mark's voice, the world can seem very dark. And then if you can interact with people who aren't in that headspace and people who care about you and people who can share with you other ways of viewing the world, opportunities, things that are of interest, those opportunities and things that are of interest can come into your way of seeing as well. And I think that that's part of the story that Mark is telling us there. And it's a lesson for all of us. --- ### [Love Lists Stopped A Suicidal Thought Loop](https://share.snipd.com/snip/46d62a84-3c12-4d16-980b-ff34ef17af14) 🎧 01:33:52 - 01:34:59 (01:07) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/d819744f-e8f4-4044-8f78-5e477fd6fd1c" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - Sherry escaped suicidal spirals by writing 'love lists'—lists of reasons she loved her mother—which displaced looping negative thoughts. - She now uses love lists as gratitude, meditation, and a gift to others to reduce rumination. #### 💬 Quote > When I started to make this list of reasons why I love my mother... those other looping negative spiraling voices didn't have space. > — Sherry (listener) Listener Sherry on using love lists to overcome spirals #### 📚 Transcript kinds of terrible looping thoughts that at some point had me thinking about suicide quite a bit, because I just didn't think that there was a way out of all of that. Something dropped into me one day to make a list of reasons why I loved my mom. And when I started to make this list of reasons why I love my mother, I realized, maybe not quite right at that exact moment, but down the road, I realized looking back that when I was immersed in thinking about why I love someone, that those other looping negative spiraling voices didn't have space. They weren't there. This became a lifelong practice for me. This was 30 some years ago that I made that very first list. I now I call them love lists and it's a tool that I use as a combination of a gratitude tool, a personal development tool, a meditation tool, and it's a gift. --- ### [Label Thoughts And Diagnose Root Causes](https://share.snipd.com/snip/f2626666-e192-40da-93bd-f0881ccc35d2) 🎧 01:35:55 - 01:37:04 (01:08) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/de97c69d-5b44-4202-a8ed-44b292526e5f" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - Use meta-awareness and labeling: note that anxious spirals are temporary thoughts and ask what's the root cause. - Walton practices writing anxieties down and diagnosing their origin to address underlying issues rather than symptoms. #### 💬 Quote > This is a thought, this is a time of anxiety... If I could figure out that reason, I can work on the thing that actually matters. > — Greg Walton Greg Walton on meta-awareness to escape spirals #### 📚 Transcript **Greg Walton:** Yeah, I mean, I think definitely the kind of, you know, 3am anxiety experience, like anxiety peaks, you know, early in the morning, you can't sleep, you wake up. I think one thing that helps is to just write down the things that you're anxious about, right? So you that's something I've definitely done. I think another thing that helps me is just the kind of meta-awareness that this is, it's almost a mindfulness, is that this is a this is a time of anxiety, and things will look a little bit different at a different time, maybe from a different perspective, maybe just at 10 in the morning in light of a conversation with somebody I care about or somebody who cares about me. So that meta-awareness is also helpful. And I think that the surfacing is really important to be able to say what it is and then to kind of diagnose it. Like, where is it that that is coming from? Why is it that I'm having this anxiety at this time? There's a reason for I might not know the reason for that, but there's a reason for that. And if I could figure out that reason, it's almost like understanding the root cause. ---