# Group Think  ## Episode metadata - Episode title: Group Think - Show: Hidden Brain - Owner / Host: Hidden Brain, Shankar Vedantam - Guests: [Coltan Scrivner](https://share.snipd.com/person/4c9ee6c3-4484-4c66-8e0e-faca4b4e3664), [Jay Van Bavel](https://share.snipd.com/person/16b69d07-eedb-467c-9b87-1c6f86adb811) - Episode publish date: 2026-03-23 - Episode AI description: Coltan Scrivner, a researcher of morbid curiosity who studies why people seek horror and true crime, and Jay Van Bavel, a psychologist who studies how group loyalties shape behavior. They discuss how group identity can alter taste, sight, and choices. They also explore why people crave scary stories, how fear can bond people, and when morbid curiosity becomes harmful. - Duration: 01:27:56 - Episode URL: [Open in Snipd](https://share.snipd.com/episode/25a4dff0-b29f-40dd-8ae7-e3890f081c5f) - Show URL: [Open in Snipd](https://share.snipd.com/show/c94a26f6-1a03-4020-a574-bec10c59f432) - Export date: 2026-07-08T01:10:39 ## Snips ### [Mandela Used Sport To Create National Identity](https://share.snipd.com/snip/ecd65bf7-978d-4f57-b210-1642295fabc5) 🎧 00:52 - 02:08 (01:16) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/64dae77e-3fa6-4b29-a1f0-c43e4b450262" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - Nelson Mandela wore the Springboks cap and jersey at the 1995 Rugby World Cup final to signal unity across racial divides. - Francois Pinar recalled Mandela's gesture moved him to tears and helped black and white South Africans cheer together after South Africa won 15-12. #### 💬 Quote > He had the green Springboks cap and jersey. > — Jay Van Bavel Jay Van Bavel on Nelson Mandela using sports symbolism #### 📚 Transcript **Shankar Vedantam:** Other politicians might have turned to speeches and policies. Madiba turned to sports. Play **Jay Van Bavel:** continues. Offside by New Zealand. He used the Rugby World Cup, was being hosted in South Africa. And during the apartheid era, South Africa had been banned from competition. And the South African team was known as the Springboks, and they were beloved by the white South Africans and despised by the black population. But what Mandela did was he went out onto the podium, not just as the president, but as a fan. He had the green Springboks cap and jersey. And he used it as a way to make a statement that we're one team, we're one country now. And he took a symbol of oppression and used it as a symbol of togetherness. The President to the captain. **Shankar Vedantam:** The Springboks team captain, Francois Pinar, remembers the moment Madiba walked into the team's locker room. It was before the finals against New Zealand. He said, **Jay Van Bavel:** good luck boys, and they turned around. And my number was on his back, and that was me. I couldn't sing the anthem because I knew I would cry. I was just so proud to **Shankar Vedantam:** be South Africa that day. The match was a nail-biter. It went into overtime. South Africa ended up winning 15-12. --- ### [Identity Primes Change Taste Preferences](https://share.snipd.com/snip/0b300e11-835b-49aa-954b-78408c8922bd) 🎧 07:48 - 08:29 (00:40) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/b0a5fa41-0495-4523-a049-063126fa3b52" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - Making a social identity salient shifts preferences toward identity-linked products and symbols. - In Ottawa, priming Canadian identity made people prefer maple syrup over honey in a randomized taste test. #### 💬 Quote > When they were primed with their Canadian identity, they liked the maple syrup more than the honey. > — Jay Van Bavel Jay Van Bavel on a taste test showing identity-driven preferences #### 📚 Transcript **Jay Van Bavel:** taste test. They were able to sample honey or maple syrup. And then we randomly flipped a coin and assigned people to one of two conditions. Half of the people were primed to think about their personal identity. So they talked about like books they liked as an individual. The other half of the people were primed to think about their Canadian identity. And what we found is that when they were primed with their individual identity, they tended to like the taste of honey and maple syrup roughly the same. But when they were primed with their Canadian identity, they liked the maple syrup more than the honey. And so what it suggests is that when your identity is salient, it makes you prefer things that are associated with that identity. And for Canada, maple syrup is one of the big ones. --- ### [Groups Reframe Sensory Perception](https://share.snipd.com/snip/7da57ad0-98df-4fbb-8f17-eb9ea07e7a37) 🎧 10:31 - 11:30 (00:58) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/44defd96-ae00-4b9b-bae0-b7ea2343bd03" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - Group labels change sensory judgments so the same sensory input is evaluated differently for in-group versus out-group sources. - Sussex students rated an identically smelly shirt as less disgusting when labeled as from their university than when labeled as a rival's. #### 💬 Quote > When people were primed to think that this was an outgroup member shirt, they thought it was much more disgusting. > — Jay Van Bavel Jay Van Bavel on the University of Sussex smelly t-shirt study #### 📚 Transcript **Shankar Vedantam:** This **Jay Van Bavel:** has to be one of my favorite studies. Yeah, so this was run in the UK, and they wanted to see how identity might shape our smell. And so they used a very clever trick to, you know, manipulate people's social identity. And then they had them smell this stinky shirt, which, you know, they had a research assistant wear this shirt for like a week, you know, sweating in it, exercising in it, not taking it off. And then they put it in this like sealed bin and they had participants come in and smell this shirt. And what they did was they manipulated the shirt. So it either had a logo from the rival university, which was the University of Brighton, or the other half the students got to see this with a Sussex, University of Sussex logo. And so what they found is that when people were primed to think that this was an outgroup member shirt, they thought it was much more disgusting, much more putrid and odorous than when they thought the exact same smelling shirt was from a member of their own in-group. --- ### [Tajfel's Minimal Groups Produced Strong Bias](https://share.snipd.com/snip/edc00011-ee3d-4712-9ee3-4af61828545c) 🎧 15:17 - 16:15 (00:57) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/43f5d897-3202-4540-aa5e-7f6fb25334b1" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - Henri Tajfel randomly assigned youths to arbitrary art-favoring groups and had them allocate money among groups. - Participants favored their assigned in-group and preferred maximizing the difference between in-group and out-group payouts. #### 💬 Quote > The moment that you're part of a team or part of a group, you will give more money to members of your in-group and less money to the out-group. > — Jay Van Bavel Jay Van Bavel describing Tajfel's minimal group experiments #### 📚 Transcript **Jay Van Bavel:** This, I think, is one of the most important studies in the history of psychology, maybe in the history of the social sciences. So this was a study run by Henri Tajfel and his colleagues. He ran this study where he basically just randomly assigned youths to one of two groups, and he did it on just trivial information. So what type of abstract art they liked, and these young people didn't know these artists at all. And in fact, it didn't matter who they actually liked. He just flipped a coin and gave them false feedback anyways. The **Shankar Vedantam:** volunteers in the Clay and Kandinsky camps were then told to divvy up money among people in the different groups. And **Jay Van Bavel:** what he found is that the moment that you're part of a team or part of a group, you will give more money to members of your in-group and less money to the out-group. Even if you never interact or meet those people, even if you never expect that they'll meet you. And the thing he also found is that what people really care about is maximizing the difference in money they give to the in-group and out-group. --- ### [Basking Makes In-Group Wins Feel Personal](https://share.snipd.com/snip/277a7f44-c7d2-4460-bcc4-62bd1b7001aa) 🎧 16:51 - 17:49 (00:58) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/a4cf36e7-931b-45f0-8f42-fc1fa9fa22d9" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - People vicariously experience in-group successes as if they happened to themselves. - NYU students showed brain responses suggesting they felt reward when fellow NYU students won money in lab tasks. #### 💬 Quote > When they saw NYU students win money, they actually had a brain response that suggested that they were feeling as if they had won the money. > — Jay Van Bavel Jay Van Bavel on neural evidence for basking in reflected glory #### 📚 Transcript **Jay Van Bavel:** And I've seen the same pattern over and over again. The moment that people are assigned to a team or a group, even though they often can know it's a coin flip that's determining this, means that they like those people more. They want to be friends with them. It shapes their automatic evaluations of those individuals. And we ran a study where NYU students thought they were interacting economic decisions with members of NYU, which is their members of their own in-group, or Columbia, which is a high status school across New York City. And what they did was they would give more money to NYU students and Columbia students. But what was even more interesting is when they saw NYU students win money, they actually had a brain response that suggested that they were feeling as if they had won the money. And so what it suggests is what is referred to in the literature as basking in reflected glory, is that when your in-group does well, it makes you feel good. You have a response in your brain as if you won or something good happened to you. --- ### [Stop Rewarding Out-Group Dunking Online](https://share.snipd.com/snip/1f760f59-eb55-46f5-a393-80d714f212cf) 🎧 30:10 - 30:41 (00:31) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/7ec261c7-ac36-4693-9418-242934d779d9" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - Avoid designing for outrage on social media because moralized attacks amplify in-group sharing and deepen polarization. - Van Bavel's research shows content dunking on out-groups is 67% likelier to be shared and rarely crosses to the other side. #### 💬 Quote > The biggest single predictor of making something go viral is dunking on the out group, saying something negative about the other side. > — Jay Van Bavel Jay Van Bavel on how social media incentivizes out-group attacks #### 📚 Transcript **Jay Van Bavel:** So when people use powerful moral, language around political topics, it seems to go more viral. People are 15 to 20% more likely to share it. But what happens is who's sharing it? It's people who are part of your own political in-group. It doesn't cross over to the other side when you use that language. And we have a new study out where we found that the biggest single predictor of making something go viral is dunking on the out group, saying something negative about the other side. And that's 67% more likely to get shared. --- ### [Cheese Choking Sparked A Lifelong Collaboration](https://share.snipd.com/snip/4638594a-b672-4e4c-8177-f7b5677dc894) 🎧 35:13 - 36:54 (01:41) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/00f5a208-642c-43c9-a4df-b9af0b83adef" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - Jay Van Bavel choked on a cube of cheese at a grad school reception and Dominic Packer performed the Heimlich to save him. - That near-death moment transformed them from chilly office-mates into lifelong collaborators and co-authors. #### 💬 Quote > He gave me the Heimlich. It came out. And I remember at the end of this... it bonded us together. > — Jay Van Bavel Jay Van Bavel recounting the choking incident that bonded him with Dominic Packer #### 📚 Transcript **Jay Van Bavel:** So one of the rituals of being a graduate student at most universities is they bring in guest speakers. As a grad student, you're at the bottom of the pecking order, but you get to meet the speakers, take them for lunch, and then they often have a nice wine and cheese reception. And so at the wine and cheese reception, you know, I was a poor student. I was eating as much cheese as I could, drinking as much free beer as I could. And I wasn't paying attention to what I was eating. And I dropped this cheese cube, it was about the size of a dice, into my throat. And it got plugged in my throat. And I started choking. And I tried to rinse it down with some beer, but that just made the situation worse. At that point, I had zero oxygen going to my brain. And I thought back to the times I used to work in the oil field of Alberta. I had to watch all these safety videos. And the first thing I learned was that if you're choking, most people can save you as long as you don't leave the room. But it's so embarrassing to choke that most people who die do so because they just want to be alone and not have other people see them. So I went to the bartender and I couldn't speak, but I kind of like, you know, made the universal choking signature. And then I twisted into him with my back and, but he didn't really know what was going on and didn't help me that much. So I grabbed Dominic's hand and pulled him into the men's room and he didn't know what was going on either at that point. But I communicated to him that I need him to do the Heimlich on me or I would die. And he looked like white, like he had seen a ghost. But eventually he got in the position, I kind of like started moving his hands towards my diaphragm and he gave me the Heimlich. It came out. And I remember at the end of this, you know, there was professors coming in to use the washroom and out and they're looking at us like, what are you guys doing in here? But it bonded us together. This weird near-death experience, almost me almost dying at the wine and cheese and him having to save my life created a bridge. --- ### [Build Inclusion By Creating Small Shared Goals](https://share.snipd.com/snip/aeaafcb4-1912-460e-8532-bdb5840556fc) 🎧 41:10 - 43:16 (02:06) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/27fce4c5-bef3-4ba1-a226-0a9876d55cb5" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - Start small and build shared goals to create inclusive group identities that reduce prejudice. - Jay Van Bavel recommends finding common ground, having people work together, and creating superordinate goals like sports teams or projects. #### 💬 Quote > Start small, find any common ground you can with somebody. And then you need to build on that, you know, by having them work together for something bigger. > — Jay Van Bavel Jay Van Bavel on practical steps to form broader, inclusive identities #### 📚 Transcript **Shankar Vedantam:** Yeah, **Jay Van Bavel:** she did this amazing study, really mind-blowing in how she pulled it off. She did this study in northern Iraq, and it was at a period of time where ISIS had caused chaos. People had been forced to flee their homes and live in refugee camps. And eventually they were liberated in 2016. And she went into these neighborhoods and created a summer soccer league. And she got a sample of Muslims and Christians, and she had them play on these summer soccer teams. And they generated a sense of connection with people from these other religions who were on their teams. Even though they didn't want to play with people from other religions, having them on their team increased their connection with them. And measured all of these positive outcomes as a consequence of this. And it's hard to imagine a more divisive situation to walk into other than religious differences after a period of religious terrorism and people being forced to go to refugee camps. But what this showed is that being part of the same team, working towards a common shared goal, and especially I think what she found was also that teams that won, that were successful at doing this, had even tighter bonds. That shows how sports and just any type of connection we can build with people working towards common purpose can bridge gaps that we might have thought were completely unbridgeable. **Shankar Vedantam:** Now, I suppose you could say that, you know, people cheering a soccer star or people cheering fellow members of the team, you know, that's a cheap form of group identity. It's not as real as religion or something that is much more longstanding. But in a way, you know, all of our group loyalties are probably shaped by similar forces, you know, small accidental events that over time, you know, become, you know, the pillars of our lives. **Jay Van Bavel:** Yes. When we think of identities, it's probably best to just start small, find any common ground you can with somebody. And then you need to build on that, you know, by having them work together for something bigger and, you know, maybe competing against other groups in a way that's not harmful or dangerous, or at least having a common sense of purpose. --- ### [Soccer League Bridged Sectarian Divides](https://share.snipd.com/snip/330179cf-5e24-4a31-86ba-b27a9031c44d) 🎧 41:34 - 42:22 (00:47) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/4ca0fd6e-5d96-40cf-95d1-3187cd66c34a" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - Salma Moussa ran a summer soccer league in northern Iraq mixing Muslim and Christian youths after ISIS. - Teams that played—and especially winning teams—showed increased intergroup connection and reduced hostility. #### 💬 Quote > Being part of the same team... increased their connection with them. > — Jay Van Bavel Jay Van Bavel describing Salma Moussa's soccer intervention in northern Iraq #### 📚 Transcript **Jay Van Bavel:** And she got a sample of Muslims and Christians, and she had them play on these summer soccer teams. And they generated a sense of connection with people from these other religions who were on their teams. Even though they didn't want to play with people from other religions, having them on their team increased their connection with them. she measured all of these positive outcomes as a consequence of this. And it's hard to imagine a more divisive situation to walk into other than religious differences after a period of religious terrorism and people being forced to go to refugee camps. But what this showed is that being part of the same team, working towards a common shared goal, and especially I think what she found was also that teams that won, that were successful at doing this, had even tighter bonds. --- ### [Representation Reduces Policing Bias](https://share.snipd.com/snip/09528b2c-0e7e-4c9b-bdb0-e0a5acee7677) 🎧 44:48 - 45:17 (00:28) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/98eb1ce0-20fb-4b4c-8d40-c2e3b1e23785" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - Increasing diversity among authority figures changes behavior and reduces biased actions. - In Chicago, black and Hispanic officers made fewer stops, arrests, and used less force, especially when interacting with black civilians. #### 💬 Quote > Black and Hispanic officers in particular made fewer stops in arrest and used force far less often than white officers. > — Jay Van Bavel Jay Van Bavel on research linking police diversity to improved outcomes #### 📚 Transcript **Jay Van Bavel:** So there's fascinating research in Chicago where they've to understand what you can do to improve policing. And one of the most impressive studies on this, it a massive, large-scale study, they found that increasing the diversity of police officers made a significant difference in police behavior. And so, black and Hispanic officers in particular made fewer stops in arrest and used force far less often than white officers. And this was especially true when they interacted with black civilians. --- ### [Earthrise Can Expand Identity To Humanity](https://share.snipd.com/snip/f11d0250-46b2-4603-b109-5607d6ddc83d) 🎧 48:20 - 49:25 (01:05) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/c4630888-3b5c-478b-87be-039ddc30bf38" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - Expanding identity to 'all humanity' can motivate cooperation for global threats like climate change. - Astronauts report lasting feelings of awe and connectedness after seeing Earth that shift perspectives toward common human purpose. #### 💬 Quote > If we can get people to see themselves as connected to all of humanity, we might be able to change the way they think about themselves. > — Jay Van Bavel Jay Van Bavel on astronauts' Earthrise effect and global cooperation #### 📚 Transcript **Jay Van Bavel:** a problem like climate change, we need a level of international cooperation we've never seen before. And the experience of these astronauts suggests it's possible. Many interviews with astronauts who've ever seen the Earth from above have this experience of awe and connectedness with all of humanity. And many say they're changed by it permanently. It's now approaching lunar sunrise. And for all the people back on Earth, the crew of Apollo 8 has a message that we would like to send to you. In the beginning, God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth will move out more. It's not feasible for us to get everybody up to the moon, but what it suggests is that if we can get people to see themselves as connected to all of humanity, we might be able to change the way they think about themselves. They suddenly see themselves as part of something bigger, part of something bigger than their nation. --- ### [Morbid Curiosity Serves A Learning Function](https://share.snipd.com/snip/3200fc14-47f8-49a6-b338-548bfb2cc907) 🎧 53:39 - 56:06 (02:26) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/9d749c80-171f-4938-8904-63a38909e2f7" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - Morbid curiosity evolved as an attention system to learn about danger from others' experiences. - Colton Scrivner argues stories of harm teach survival-relevant cues by showing what led to victimization or escape. #### 💬 Quote > Our interest in things that are scary or dangerous... is about learning about things that could be dangerous and what happens to people who experience things that are dangerous. > — Colton Scrivner Colton Scrivner explaining evolutionary basis for fascination with the morbid #### 📚 Transcript **Shankar Vedantam:** Colton joined us on a recent episode titled Murder Mystery. If you missed it, you can find it in this podcast feed or at hiddenbrain.org. Today, he returns to the show for our popular segment, Your Questions Answered. We received so many notes and stories from listeners about this episode. Colton Scrivener, welcome back to Hidden Brain. Thank **Coltan Scrivner:** you for having me back on. Colton, **Shankar Vedantam:** let's start by looking at one metric of the scale of our interest in what you call morbid curiosity. What is the scale of the entertainment industry that caters to gore and to horror? I **Coltan Scrivner:** think people think about it as just being the horror genre, and that's where morbid curiosity lies. But really, almost any story that we tell has elements of violence or disease or social betrayal, predators. I there's any number of stories from drama to thrillers to even romance films have elements of violence and danger that can pique our morbid curiosity. So I would say it's really kind of storytelling broadly that can pique our morbid curiosity. Many **Shankar Vedantam:** of us, of course, think that people who rubberneck or people who watch horror movies, these must be creepy people themselves. You've studied these people. Is that what you find? That's **Coltan Scrivner:** not what I find. I think the intuition, I understand, you know, especially if you're somebody who doesn't really like horror movies or true crime, maybe someone who watches a lot of horror movies might have something wrong with them. But that's simply not what the empirical science seems to show. It seems to show that not only are those people who really love scary things pretty normal psychologically, but actually morbid curiosity itself is fairly normal. So most people have some degree of morbid curiosity, and sometimes that's not displayed through an interest in horror movies or true crime, but as I mentioned, through maybe an interest in thriller movies or maybe dramas that have a particularly compelling villain. You **Shankar Vedantam:** argue that there is an evolutionary reason for our obsession with the scary and the creepy. What is that reason? Well, **Coltan Scrivner:** our interest in things that are scary or dangerous, it really is about learning about things that could be dangerous and what happens to people who experience things that are dangerous. --- ### [Three Types Of Horror Fans Explain Why People Enjoy Fear](https://share.snipd.com/snip/3af1cfb2-fa07-4cbe-a4c0-2cf7f3b5bb27) 🎧 01:10:06 - 01:10:58 (00:51) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/44dff872-2e8d-4854-8a4b-6e5eb58230dc" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - Horror fans split into three psychological types with distinct motivations. - Colton Scrivner identifies sensation seekers, white knucklers who enjoy overcoming fear, and dark copers who use horror to process difficult emotions. #### 💬 Quote > One of those types was the sort of adrenaline junkie... the white knucklers... and the dark copers. > — Colton Scrivner Colton Scrivner summarizing typology of horror consumers #### 📚 Transcript **Coltan Scrivner:** And one of those types was the sort of adrenaline junkie, right? That high sensation seeker, horror fan. And those people enjoy horror for the sensations that they get from it. But many people were lumped into one of the other two categories. So another category, we call that the white knucklers. And these are people who said that they did enjoy horror, but they didn't actually enjoy those extreme sensations very much. And they don't necessarily enjoy feeling afraid. Rather, what they seem to have enjoyed is the experience of overcoming fear, right? So that doing something challenging and then overcoming it is what they enjoyed. And then there was a third category that we called the dark copers. And those people, what they really focused on when they were going through a frightening simulation, like a horror movie or a haunted attraction, is that it helped them deal with difficult emotions. --- ### [Paranormal Hunt Produced Real Physiological Responses](https://share.snipd.com/snip/cc328862-269f-49e5-bd92-54a9e11b1b07) 🎧 01:27:45 - 01:32:17 (04:31) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/a5ddccd6-fc2d-4962-98d4-5ab460a85f96" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - Colton Scrivner joined a paranormal investigation at the Sorrel Weed House and felt a distinct brush on his leg in the basement. - Even non-believers showed physiological arousal when told a room was haunted, matching reports of sightings and touches. #### 💬 Quote > Despite the fact that I don't believe in ghosts, I was in a place where people believe there were ghosts. And my body certainly responded as if there were ghosts there. > — Colton Scrivner Colton Scrivner recounting his haunted house investigation experience #### 📚 Transcript **Shankar Vedantam:** Can you paint a picture of the place for me and describe for me what happened? Yeah, **Coltan Scrivner:** so this was at the Sorrel Weed House in Savannah, Georgia. It's an old sort of Civil War era mansion, beautiful, huge mansion, and is famous for being paranormally active, in part because Savannah itself is famous for being a haunted location, and in part because there were some tragedies that took place at the house. There was a woman who, I believe, she hung herself in relation to an affair, which is a pretty common story at haunted locations. I was in Savannah not that long ago and did go on a paranormal investigation there was a late night one with about 10 or 12 of us. And one of the more frightening spaces in the house is the basement. I think basements are inherently a little creepy anyway. And certainly when you're in the basement of a famously haunted mansion, they're extra creepy. And one reason that the basement is considered one of the scarier places in the Sorrelweed house is that there's a pretty common apparition that people see down there of what appears to be a very tall soldier. And he's kind of standing at the end of this long hallway, this long dark hallway. And many people report seeing this soldier You know, when I was there, there was a small wooden chair at one end of that hallway. I think it's important to mention here that I don't really believe in ghosts. And I love paranormal hunts. find them kind of a fun, scary play. I mean, I certainly feel afraid at times when I'm there. And so when I went and sat in the chair, you know, I looked down this long, dark hallway and reminded myself that I don't believe in ghosts. And so I start to kind of see, you know, the outlines of a uniform or a gun or a tall man. And it's funny how that works, you know, and there's a really great study that made me feel very validated when I read it. And it was a study showing that regardless of whether or not people believe in the afterlife, their bodies actually respond very similarly to potential hauntings. So in this case, it was like a light that flickered. And in the control group, you know, the control group was told nothing about the lab space they in potentially being haunted. And then the experimental group, they were told that someone had died in that room not long ago and someone had seen a ghost in there. And in both the experimental and the control group, they asked, you know, do you believe in the afterlife? And it didn't matter if you believed in the afterlife or not. If you were in the experimental group where the light flickered, and you were told about a ghost, your body had that physiological arousal, that sort of preparation for fight or flight. And in the control group, you know, it made no difference at all. People just thought it was a light that was faltering. And of course, it didn't matter if you believed in ghosts or not, because you didn't have an intuition that a ghost might be there. So, you know, despite the fact that I don't believe in ghosts, I was in a place where people believe there were ghosts. And my body certainly responded as if there were ghosts there. I understand that at one point you felt a physical sensation on your right leg. Tell me what happened, Colton. Yeah, it's one thing to see something, right, or hear something, but when you feel something, that feels more real, right? That feels harder to fake. And so there's two ghosts, I guess, that are commonly reported in the basement. One of them is the soldier, right? That's the kind of frightening one. But there's also apparently the children who lived there originally like to play in the basement. And some people report, you know, seeing toys in the basement that get moved around, or they report feeling kind of things brushing up on their legs about the height of a small child. And I was there and I was wearing shorts because it was in Savannah. It fairly warm out, even though it was late at night. And I was standing kind of by myself. We'd split up to kind of the exact thing they tell you not to do in horror movies where we split up a little bit. And I was standing kind of by myself and I felt something kind of brush up against my leg. And of course, I looked down and there's nothing there. But I, it was a very distinct sensation. And then, you know, just a moment or two later, you know, someone else who was 15 or 20 feet away in our group, kind of let out a small yelp and said she felt something touch her leg. So unless there was a very sneaky cat or something in there, you know, we had very similar experiences again. And we were told about the potential ghost children in the basement. --- Created with [Snipd](https://www.snipd.com) | Highlight & Take Notes from Podcasts