# What Art Does For Your Brain  ## Episode metadata - Episode title: What Art Does For Your Brain - Show: Hidden Brain - Owner / Host: Hidden Brain, Shankar Vedantam - Guests: [Daisy Fancourt](https://share.snipd.com/person/ac4a8aca-8b7b-473d-bdfd-f69b6af87ef9) - Episode publish date: 2026-08-24 - Episode AI description: Daisy Fancourt, a psychobiologist at University College London who studies how the arts affect health, explains why art can change how we feel. She discusses music’s mood-regulating power and how group singing boosts social support and lowers stress. She outlines arts-based tools for emotional regulation, brief daily creative habits, and how long-term engagement links to better mental and brain health. - Mentioned books: [Art Cure](https://share.snipd.com/book/c0549404-3f93-495e-937d-4faf99c8a2fb) by [Daisy Fancourt](https://share.snipd.com/person/ac4a8aca-8b7b-473d-bdfd-f69b6af87ef9) - Duration: 49:18 - Episode URL: [Open in Snipd](https://share.snipd.com/episode/b22006e2-25ff-43a0-ae2d-73361fe95af0) - Show URL: [Open in Snipd](https://share.snipd.com/show/c94a26f6-1a03-4020-a574-bec10c59f432) - Export date: 2026-09-02T23:32:18 ## Snips ### [Singing Calmed Distressed Children In Hospitals](https://share.snipd.com/snip/194d7756-c233-4a81-adc4-3b145af145fe) 🎧 03:59 - 06:01 (02:01) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/a9bae225-eee6-421a-95dd-4145ea359bee" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - Daisy Fancourt watched singing calm anxious children during hospital ward visits, often stopping crying and creating social connection. - She repeated this across pediatrics and saw parents regain agency by singing with their children, improving feeding and bonding. #### 💬 Quote > I was seeing directly that singing with children who were really anxious and crying and distressed would stop them crying and would actually completely calm them down. > — Daisy Fancourt Daisy Fancourt on singing with pediatric patients #### 📚 Transcript **Shankar Vedantam:** I **Daisy Fancourt:** feel really lucky because I was born into a family of professional musicians, so the arts were just so much a part of my day-to upbringing. I don't think I really reflected on what a privilege that is to have that kind of exposure at such a young age. I mean, I remember so clearly that if ever I felt stressed or worried about anything as a teenager, I used to go and play the piano just sort of instinctively. And I knew that was something that would help me. And I certainly have noticed that a lot of the relationships the friendships that I built early on they came through playing music with friends being in orchestras or bands or being involved in musical theatre so I think it was a lot more fundamental and foundational to me than I necessarily appreciated at that young age. **Shankar Vedantam:** I understand, Daisy, that while you were in college, you began working in a pediatric hospital. Tell me about this work, where it was and what you did. It **Daisy Fancourt:** was an incredible program that was open to students at Oxford University where I was studying. And alongside your studies, you could train to go and deliver arts programs in hospitals. And it was something I just jumped at immediately because I was still fascinated by science and medicine and keen to find a way to blend the two. So we received training and then worked in paediatric hospital wards doing singing workshops with the children. And I was just completely blown away by the impact that I saw the singing having. I kind of expected it to be a nice bit of entertainment. But actually I was seeing directly that singing with children who were really anxious and crying and distressed would stop them crying and would actually completely calm them down. And I saw these amazing interactions between patients and their siblings that actually music was providing this form of emotional and social connection for them, even in this very challenging and kind of often inhumane kind of environment of the hospital. --- ### [Theatre Performance Distracted A Burn Patient](https://share.snipd.com/snip/e836d32c-d99b-4ffd-8f4f-4eba96cb47b8) 🎧 07:34 - 08:07 (00:33) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/88408a6e-e19d-4ecc-89c3-a6ca4b51ca52" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - A theatre troupe performance in an emergency department distracted a boy with severe burns so he stopped asking for morphine and began smiling. - The performance reduced his perceived lack of control and shifted attention from pain to play. #### 💬 Quote > He suddenly wasn't asking for pain relief. He was smiling and laughing along with what they were doing. > — Daisy Fancourt Daisy Fancourt describing a theatre group's impact in ER #### 📚 Transcript **Daisy Fancourt:** Well, after I finished college, I actually got a full-time job working in our National Health Service, so working in hospitals, designing new arts programs. And one of the wards we worked on was in the emergency departments. And I remember there was a little boy who'd come in who'd had really terrible burns, and there was a delay in managing to get morphine to him and he was calling out for pain relief. But actually there was a theatre group that we had in the hospital and they started doing this performance for him in the emergency department. And again, it was just this complete change in his behaviour. He suddenly wasn't asking for pain relief. He was smiling and laughing along with what they were doing. --- ### [Anticipation In Art Delivers Repeated Dopamine Hits](https://share.snipd.com/snip/796cb1c9-fde6-4bc2-bc01-2508a6f38a6b) 🎧 12:30 - 13:38 (01:07) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/4f0ae56a-923e-4df9-8438-e8909ba90b36" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - Arts engagement triggers dopamine via reward networks during anticipation and resolution, not just at peak moments. - Daisy explains tension and resolution in music or stories provide repeated dopamine 'doses' that boost momentary happiness. #### 💬 Quote > Arts experiences are constantly about tension and resolution and anticipating what might happen and seeing if we're right or having our expectations thwarted. > — Daisy Fancourt Daisy Fancourt on neuroscience of arts and dopamine #### 📚 Transcript **Daisy Fancourt:** It's actually one of the things people report the most when you ask them how they feel when they engage in the arts. They'll often say they feel happier. And we actually are really starting to understand more about the neuroscience of why this is. Because when we engage in the arts, we are essentially activating pleasure centres in the brain and reward networks like the dopaminergic system, which leads to the release of neurotransmitters like dopamine, which are involved in those feelings of happiness, of pleasure. And actually, we used to think that we just got these dopamine releases at the kind of peak moments of arts experiences, like if you're listening to a song and that chorus comes back and you have that kind of yes moment. But we also now know that you get those in anticipation of those moments. It's the build up to the return of that chorus. Or if you're reading a story, it's those moments when you're about to find out who the murderer is in a big detective novel, for example. And actually, that's why the arts are so effective at giving us these dopamine releases, because arts experiences are constantly about tension and resolution and anticipating what might happen and seeing if we're right or having our expectations thwarted. --- ### [Aesthetic Distance Lets Us Rehearse Emotions Safely](https://share.snipd.com/snip/413dad64-1d67-4bf1-9b7f-e3259459edbd) 🎧 14:35 - 15:53 (01:17) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/3779b906-6e9f-45fc-833a-28769265d836" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - Sad or scary art produces mixed emotions safely because 'aesthetic distance' lets us feel without real-world consequences. - That safe rehearsal helps brains practice emotion regulation and provides authentic social connection via shared feeling. #### 💬 Quote > Because we know it's art, our brain treats us a little bit differently. So we've got a little bit of an aesthetic distance between us and that arts experience. > — Daisy Fancourt Daisy Fancourt on why sad or scary art can feel good #### 📚 Transcript **Daisy Fancourt:** And the reason for this is that when we engage in arts, in, for example, sad or scary or shocking arts experiences, we actually experience positive and negative emotions simultaneously. So if you experience those sad, scary or shocking events in real life, it would just be probably deeply traumatic. But because we know it's art, our brain treats us a little bit differently. So we've got a little bit of an aesthetic distance between us and that arts experience. And that distance means that we experience those emotions, but we don't have to respond to them. We don't have to change the scary experience in our lives. We've not got to try and stop that fear. So actually we get to contemplateate it that means our brains get to rehearse how they might regulate their emotions or think about how we might respond in the real world and that's actually something our brains love to do and it's actually really good for us as well because our brains are prediction machines so when we engage in the arts we're actually helping to expose ourselves to new situations that can help us navigate complex experiences when they come up in our real lives. And also that those experiences, even like listening to sad songs when we're feeling sad, it can give us a feeling of kind of authentic emotional connection, the feeling that other people might have experienced similar emotions. --- ### [Arts Bundle Multiple Health-Promoting Ingredients](https://share.snipd.com/snip/a938a664-e2ac-4a96-839a-a92c18740a54) 🎧 22:38 - 23:08 (00:29) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/be1837e4-57aa-4c4c-a9a2-e2492a388f13" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - The arts combine social connection, physical activity, cognitive stimulation, multisensory input, and imagination into one intervention. - This bundling explains why arts programs often deliver compounded health benefits beyond single-focus interventions. #### 💬 Quote > The arts organically bring lots of those ingredients together. But the arts also do bring extra things as well. > — Daisy Fancourt Daisy Fancourt on why arts are powerful for health #### 📚 Transcript **Daisy Fancourt:** Very much so. And I think we see this across lots of different kinds of arts experiences. They can be this vehicle to us getting social interaction or physical activity in dance, for example, or cognitive stimulation. So things that we already know are really good for our health. So the arts organically bring lots of those ingredients together. But the arts also do bring extra things as well. They're a chance more multi-sensory stimulation and creativity and an appreciation of aesthetics and the use of our imagination. --- ### [A Week At Berklee Reoriented An Attorney's Life](https://share.snipd.com/snip/5c8ff23a-a84d-45fc-ab78-484fbea6a17e) 🎧 25:15 - 26:36 (01:21) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/a8bfb98b-da59-4506-ae6d-ad53b692a493" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - Shay, an attorney, rediscovered singing at a week-long Berklee course and rebuilt her life balance by making music central again. - The course boosted mastery, confidence, and eventually led her to perform and tour while keeping legal work. #### 💬 Quote > That course made her feel so happy, built that sense of mastery, really changed her whole outlook on herself and what she could do as well as the rest of her life. > — Daisy Fancourt Daisy Fancourt telling Shay's transformation story #### 📚 Transcript **Daisy Fancourt:** Shay is an attorney who currently now lives in Houston. And she is someone who described to me that she had a really successful career as an attorney, but just wasn't feeling really fulfilled from that work. She describes her life as being kind of grey rather than technicolour. And she was really concerned about this, particularly as her mother became very unwell with developed cancer. And her mother was saying to her, I really want you to find that sense of fulfillment in your life. But Shay remembered being really happy through singing experiences when she was younger. So she took this big leap and she signed up to a week-long music course at Berklee College, a kind of unconventional vacation. And she described to me how this was a complete turning point in her life, that that course made her feel so happy, built that sense of mastery, really changed her whole outlook on herself and what she could do as well as the rest of her life. So after that, she decided that she was going to shift her attorney work and still carry on, but actually make much more space for music in her life and she started doing more singer songwriting work and even doing tours and now like years later she says that she's completely transformed that sense of well-being in her life she's managed to use music to sort of compensate and balance out the things that she wasn't getting through her work and i feel like shay's story is such a one. --- ### [Regular Arts Engagement Halves Future Depression Risk](https://share.snipd.com/snip/2c162d37-e78b-4d04-bddd-6b7ea28d8736) 🎧 27:41 - 28:37 (00:56) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/f7d4d2b9-27d4-4edd-a769-a306204ede17" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - Longitudinal cohort analyses show regular arts hobbyists have about half the risk of developing depression over 10 years. - Daisy's team adjusted for demographics, behaviors, genetics, and past history, finding an independent protective relationship. #### 💬 Quote > People who engage regularly in the arts and have an artistic hobby actually have about half the risk of developing depression over the next 10 years. > — Daisy Fancourt Daisy Fancourt on epidemiological findings linking arts to lower depression #### 📚 Transcript **Daisy Fancourt:** And actually, a lot of these cohort studies, which I analyze in the US and in the UK, have looked at people's arts engagements. And they've included lots of questions about their arts behaviours. So over the last 10 years, my team and I have been publishing dozens of papers, actually looking at how arts engagement relates to the risk of developing depression over the following decades. And we found that people who engage regularly in the arts and have an artistic hobby actually have about half the risk of developing depression over the next 10 years. So you could say, well, are these people just healthier or wealthier or have other patterns of behaviours in their lives? But as epidemiologists, we use statistical methods to basically try and account for all the other factors that could explain this relationship. So demographics, behaviors, genetics, other aspects of people's lives or even their past histories. And we've actually seen that this relationship is independent of these factors. --- ### [Arts Build Cognitive Reserve And Younger Brain Age](https://share.snipd.com/snip/f66e9d53-3b5c-49aa-965a-0ff54640f2e7) 🎧 30:10 - 31:50 (01:39) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/48cc7c61-e6b2-472b-a64d-2eda4c7322a8" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - Arts give a whole-brain workout activating visual, motor, memory, and emotion networks, building cognitive reserve. - Amateur/professional artists show 'younger' brain ages and delayed dementia symptoms by roughly five to seven years. #### 💬 Quote > People who are amateurs or professionals, their brains actually are younger as they get older compared to their chronological age. > — Daisy Fancourt Daisy Fancourt on arts and brain aging #### 📚 Transcript **Shankar Vedantam:** So **Daisy Fancourt:** when we engage in the arts, we're really giving our brains quite an effective whole brain workout. We're involving so many different regions of the brain that might be involved in the visual processing of sheet music, for example, or the motor response that's required or the memory or the emotions that are being activated. And what we've seen through a lot of studies now is that when people are regularly engaged in the arts, it actually supports their cognition. They develop increased cognitive functioning. And we can see this evident in neuroimaging studies that have shown increases in the size and connectivity between different brain regions when people engage regularly in the arts. But we can also see this over time. As people get older, those who've got more regular patterns of arts engagement actually have better preservation of their cognition. And in fact, they even tend to have younger brain ages. We can estimate someone's brain age based on how their is connecting and the patterns of connectivity across brain regions. And people who are amateurs or professionals, their brains actually are younger as they get older compared to their chronological age. So that's on average about five to seven years younger as they head into older adulthoods, their brains are. And actually we've seen that this is related as well to a delayed onset of the symptoms of dementia because with dementia even if your brain is starting to accumulate some of the plaques that are typical of conditions like alzheimer's disease people who've got higher levels of what we call cognitive reserve they're actually able to compensate for longer so their brains are able to adapt and deal with it so that they don't show the outside symptoms of dementia until later on. --- ### [Do A Creative Commute Instead Of Scrolling](https://share.snipd.com/snip/b9b4d467-524d-4023-8a4f-f45bbe7870e7) 🎧 36:21 - 37:07 (00:45) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/2a06201a-e9ab-4e9d-bdd5-7b93d99aab5c" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - Do embed a daily 'dose' of the arts like a creative commute: replace phone scrolling with music or reading on the train. - Daisy uses consistent short periods (10–20 minutes) to make arts a habitual, sustainable practice. #### 💬 Quote > When I'm on my train each day I'm not allowed to scroll my phone instead I use that time to sit and listen to music or to read my book. > — Daisy Fancourt Daisy Fancourt on fitting daily arts into a commute #### 📚 Transcript **Shankar Vedantam:** I **Daisy Fancourt:** think it's great to think about this in the same way we think about our diet our exercise. We're used to target 10,000 steps a day or eat five fruit and vegetables a day or whatever. And I think having a simple rule like that is a really great way of starting. Now, for some people, that might be 10 or 15 or 20 minutes that you're able to put aside. And there can be really easy ways of doing this, sort of simple swaps that you can have in your life so for example one that I do is I have what I call a creative commute so I can't I live too far away to to cycle or run to work but when I'm on my train each day I'm not allowed to scroll my phone instead I use that time to sit and listen to music or to read my book and that's a really easy way of making sure I get those minutes every single day --- ### [Choose Daily Short Sessions Over Occasional Long Ones](https://share.snipd.com/snip/24830f98-c919-4e8a-a9e7-48841a1d2f4a) 🎧 37:13 - 37:55 (00:42) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/919bf984-4b16-4205-8c32-1e0846022055" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - Prioritise consistency over intensity: aim for short daily engagement rather than sporadic long sessions. - Regular engagement yields immediate mood benefits and long-term brain-health effects when sustained for months or years. #### 💬 Quote > If we're engaging regularly, it's much more likely to become a habit that sticks. > — Daisy Fancourt Daisy Fancourt on consistency in arts engagement #### 📚 Transcript **Shankar Vedantam:** You say that it's important to focus on consistency. So rather than trying to get four hours in one day and nothing for the rest of the week, it's more helpful to get 20 minutes every day? If **Daisy Fancourt:** we're engaging regularly, it's much more likely to become a habit that sticks. So you're much more likely to find that you don't just cancel that one day and then realise it's been a couple of weeks since you did everything. But it also means you can be getting those benefits day to day. And lots of the immediate benefits people get from arts engagement are for things like stress and for mood. And those are things that we can all benefit from having the little pick-me embedded in our day-to lives. And we also see that a lot of the evidence about the long-term benefits is really focused on sustainability of engagement. --- ### [Join A Group And Push Toward 50 Hours To Mastery](https://share.snipd.com/snip/ab47153b-96ea-41b9-ac46-2e5b778f20b7) 🎧 38:32 - 39:16 (00:43) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/62c54c20-0f39-44ae-8ba9-810e10839064" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - Try joining local groups or taking lessons and aim for ~50 hours to reach comfort and skill where flow and deeper enjoyment emerge. - Use YouTube or online communities as low-cost starting supports if classes aren't available. #### 💬 Quote > If you can do something for 50 hours, then actually you tend to have the level of skill that means you can really fly with it on your own. > — Daisy Fancourt Daisy Fancourt on building artistic skill and confidence #### 📚 Transcript **Daisy Fancourt:** They haven't got the right skills. So it can be really effective to start a hobby, an arts hobby, by joining a local group or by having a couple of lessons, a bit of instruction to get you going, or even using things like YouTube. So you've got some videos or an online community for some support to get you going. And actually, for things that involve a certain level of skill to be able to really get the most of them. So things like craft activities or learning musical instruments. Literature now suggests that if you can do something for 50 hours, then actually you tend to have the level of skill that means you can really fly with it on your own and really start to enjoy it and get into the flow of it. So that can be good for people to recognise that it might take a few weeks to feel like they're really comfortable with an artistic hobby. --- ### [Savor Art With Full Attention Not Background Noise](https://share.snipd.com/snip/3ffe9422-85b5-42fd-9769-8a1b7853d58f) 🎧 46:02 - 46:53 (00:50) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/9e07acea-cd2d-4e2d-9fe4-25821ccf255d" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - Give the arts full attention to maximise benefits: set aside focused time rather than treating art as background noise. - Deep attention increases emotional responses, flow states, brain synchronization, and dopamine release. #### 💬 Quote > When we give it full attention, all of our emotional responses are heightened, our stress responses are heightened as well. > — Daisy Fancourt Daisy Fancourt on focused versus passive arts engagement #### 📚 Transcript **Daisy Fancourt:** Yes. When we listen to music, for example, quite in the background, it can still be having some benefits for us, like reducing stress response, for example. But if it's not getting our full attention, we're not going to be getting the maximum impact from it. So I think it's really important that we are consciously aware about how much we are passively engaging in the arts versus giving it that full attention. Because when we give it full attention, all of our emotional responses are heightened, our stress responses are heightened as well. And also we've got a chance to really get into the flow of what we're doing. And if we can really get into that flow state, that feeling of complete absorption where we're forgetting everything else in our lives, it has profound benefits for our mental health. And it also has profound benefits for our brain health. It leads to synchronization between particular brain regions and enhances our overall attention as well. --- Created with [Snipd](https://www.snipd.com) | Highlight & Take Notes from Podcasts