# You 2.0: The Practice of Patience  ## Episode metadata - Episode title: You 2.0: The Practice of Patience - Show: Hidden Brain - Owner / Host: Hidden Brain, Shankar Vedantam - Guests: [Jennifer Tosti-Kharas](https://share.snipd.com/person/cf2a15bc-d8c8-42ab-a8b2-a38eb9ab9e9e), [Sarah Schnitker](https://share.snipd.com/person/263d4cd5-acc7-46a5-a5e2-317509a5636b) - Episode publish date: 2026-01-19 - Episode AI description: Join psychologists Sarah Schnitker and Jennifer Tosti-Kharas as they explore the art of patience and the pursuit of meaningful work. Sarah reveals the three types of patience and how impatience can harm our health and relationships. She shares insights on training ourselves to develop patience and the surprising benefits it has during tough times. Meanwhile, Jennifer discusses the challenges of pursuing passions, the evolution of callings, and the importance of balancing aspirations with practical realities. Their engaging conversation highlights how both patience and purpose are essential for a fulfilling life. - Mentioned books: [Is Your Work Worth It?](https://share.snipd.com/book/ccfc8873-9de4-4faf-8f7d-5fc9dd2d9813) by [Jennifer Tosti-Karis](https://share.snipd.com/person/6847f506-7a27-4c61-be83-a6f84b731475), [Christopher Wong Michelson](https://share.snipd.com/person/d90f474e-067a-45e8-9f65-cb91431823b7) - Duration: 01:40:43 - Episode URL: [Open in Snipd](https://share.snipd.com/episode/1659df20-bb30-4480-8e03-cbd06c8707de) - Show URL: [Open in Snipd](https://share.snipd.com/show/c94a26f6-1a03-4020-a574-bec10c59f432) - Export date: 2026-02-17T23:21:48 ## Snips ### [Bamboo Parable Of Hidden Growth](https://share.snipd.com/snip/25430763-557b-4c6a-b71a-c2a045cf2147) 🎧 00:46 - 02:05 (01:18) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/22dd9ae0-3597-4094-9348-033d3416d269" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - A Chinese parable about bamboo illustrates hidden growth during long periods of apparent stagnation. - The hermit explains that unseen root growth precedes sudden visible success, urging persistence. #### 💬 Quote > During all those years when it appeared that nothing was happening, the bamboo was growing, underground. > — Shankar Vedantam Shankar Vedantam introducing the bamboo parable #### 📚 Transcript **Shankar Vedantam:** This is Hidden Brain. I'm Shankar Vedanta. In a famous Chinese parable, a man, frustrated with all of his failures, exiles himself to the woods. There, he meets a hermit with whom he shares his frustrations. Give me one good reason not to quit, the man tells the hermit. The hermit points to a tall patch of foliage. You see this bamboo? He asks. I nurtured it for a year, and it did not grow as much as an inch. But the hermit did not give up. The second year, he waters and nurtures the plot again. Nothing. A third year goes by. Again nothing. Year four, the same. By the fifth year, the hermit says, a tiny sprout emerged from the earth. And within six months, the tree grew 100 feet tall. During all those years when it appeared that nothing was happening, the bamboo was growing, underground. Hidden from view, it had been rapidly spreading roots. All the time you had been struggling, the hermit told the man, you were growing strong roots. --- ### [RG3: Pressure To Return Too Soon](https://share.snipd.com/snip/f6df50b2-9cc7-4f0d-bdc1-698f37578be9) 🎧 05:20 - 10:24 (05:03) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/9784f3b3-1cee-4340-834c-882c4536df30" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - Sarah Schnitker recounts RG3's rushed return from injury and the social pressure that pushed him back too early. - He later regretted returning quickly, believing it harmed his long-term career. #### 💬 Quote > Sometimes we want something so bad that we're willing to hurt ourselves for it. > — Sarah Schnitker Sarah Schnitker on RG3 returning from injury too quickly #### 📚 Transcript **Shankar Vedantam:** in 2012, a quarterback for the Washington, D.C. football team was injured during a game against the Baltimore Ravens. What happened to Robert Griffin III, or as he was called? Yes, **Sarah Schnitker:** RG3, Baylor's hometown hero. What happened in that game is that he was tackled and they took him off the field, said, no, we're not going to play the rest of the game. They brought in Kirk Cousins, able to actually win the game. But RG3 really sustained this tough injury. RG3, now it looks like he's hurt his right leg. I mean, this would be devastating. You can watch his right leg. He's going to get, oh, that didn't look good. So **Shankar Vedantam:** the next day was confirmed that he had a sprain and RG3 was asked to sit out the next game to heal. But the team's head coach reported that the star quarterback had been medically cleared to play. So he came back in that game to success. But all was not well with his knee, was it? No, **Sarah Schnitker:** all was not well. And the team doctor who had supposedly medically cleared him has since then said, no, I did not clear him. He should not have been playing. And I think there was just this immense pressure for our G3 to move back in. He was the superstar. He was this rookie sensation, the Heisman Trophy winner. He was all this energy behind him. And the coach and team just wanted him out there. **Shankar Vedantam:** The fans wanted him out there as well. I mean, I remember, you know, reading the newspapers in Washington, D.C. at the time. And, you know, there was incredible excitement about RG3 coming to town. The Washington football team had not been a good team for a long time. And the belief was that he was going to turn everything around. And, you know, everywhere went, he was treated like the, you know, like the second coming of the Messiah. **Sarah Schnitker:** Indeed, indeed he was. And I think in the United States, and especially in our sports stories, we love a recovery story that someone gets injured and they show this amazing grit and push through and come out of it. And so I think this narrative of this superstar, almost superhuman, who can instantly recover was pushing RG3 to come back. **Shankar Vedantam:** So he came back that same season to some success. But later on the season, during a wildcard game in January of the following year, things took a turn for the worse. What happened, Sarah? **Sarah Schnitker:** Yes, things took a turn for the worse indeed. And he was tackled again and he re-injured his LCL. And he also tore a reconstructed ACL. And this is pretty devastating. I actually remember the fans at the time just being so sad that this rookie quarterback who is seen kind of as the messiah of the team was injured again and had to sit out that season. **Shankar Vedantam:** So he ended up getting reconstructive surgery in the offseason. But of course, a few months later, the new season began. RG3 was encouraged to rush back into his starting role, even though he had not played a single game in the preseason. Adidas even got behind his return with a campaign all in for week one. **Sarah Schnitker:** It's wild to me how intense this became. And I mean, I think in many ways, it's unheard of to have your first game back be on week one and not do any preseason. And what you saw in that game was exactly what you'd expect, that this person was not ready. They were getting tackled a lot, that there was not that speed and agility. The RG3 needed more time to recover and needed more time to practice before going out into a real live game. And you saw them throughout that year, never really got back to his condition that he was in when he began as a rookie the year before. **Shankar Vedantam:** And in many ways, this is a tragic story, Sarah, because again, RG3 entered the football league with just such incredible promise and hype. What became of his career? Well, **Sarah Schnitker:** you know, he never really performed the way that was hoped. And on social media said he regrets his decision to go back so quickly and wishes he had taken the time because he might have had a different career. I know I shouldn't have played that year. But when you're a player and you're in fight or flight mode, you're always going to choose to fight. --- ### [The Dean Scream And Urgency Mismatch](https://share.snipd.com/snip/8cbc90b9-dbf7-438f-839f-40d81e4e7ff6) 🎧 11:09 - 14:26 (03:17) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/622aef70-8e6d-4802-aeea-6bfbe434813b" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - Howard Dean's energetic post-Iowa speech became the infamous 'Dean scream' when TV viewers couldn't hear the cheering crowd. - The mismatch between felt urgency and reality undermined his campaign momentum. #### 💬 Quote > He starts to sound a little bit unhinged. he ends with this full-throated kind of scream. > — Sarah Schnitker Sarah Schnitker describing Howard Dean's post-Iowa speech #### 📚 Transcript **Sarah Schnitker:** got this huge, incredible early lead from this energy and really had such a grassroots upswelling that people were excited. They were eager. He just went into Iowa with all this energy and excitement. There **Shankar Vedantam:** was a U.S. who called Dean the Harry Truman of our time, the kind of plain-spoken Democrat that we need. So he had a lot of enthusiasm behind him. What happened in that Iowa caucus? Oh, **Sarah Schnitker:** the Iowa caucus, it did not go so well for him. His main rivals, John Kerry, John Edwards, they really outperformed him. He came out third, and he might have been able to recover from that. But there is this infamous speech he gave that night after coming in third that many say may have doomed him. **Shankar Vedantam:** So this was on January 19, 2004. Dean and his supporters gathered at the Valais Ballroom in West Des Moines, Iowa. And what he was looking to do was not just to concede Iowa, but to quickly reignite the enthusiasm of his supporters. What happened, Sarah? Well, **Sarah Schnitker:** his supporters were really enthusiastic at this speech. So he started yelling louder and louder. Now, unfortunately, the TV viewers who are watching this could not actually hear just how loud the crowd was. And so as he begins to shout over these cheers and get louder and louder, he starts to sound a little bit unhinged. he ends with this full-throated kind of scream. **Shankar Vedantam:** We're going to Washington, D.C. to take back the White House! Yeah! To **Sarah Schnitker:** me, it sounds like a dying goat. And this final, yeah, became known as the Dean scream or the I have a scream speech. But this was just replayed over and over on the news and really undermined kind of the seriousness of his candidacy. **Shankar Vedantam:** I think he was trying very quickly to get his supporters turned around after this defeat. And I think part of the problem was a mismatch between how urgent he felt the situation was and how urgent the situation actually was. **Sarah Schnitker:** Indeed. And, you know, sometimes when you have a loss or defeat, it's actually OK to take a few moments and lick your wounds to just take the time, heal a little bit. But you see when you watch this video that he just wanted everyone to be pumped up and have that same energy that he had a week before Iowa. And instead of kind of letting that loss take its course and then come back, he just wanted instantly to push back into that energy and excitement and that kind of winning celebration mode. --- ### [Galaxy Note 7: When Failing Fast Backfires](https://share.snipd.com/snip/598a524e-5558-4767-9860-fba71a6e099b) 🎧 15:30 - 16:58 (01:27) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/63e93ff9-ebc2-4ddc-bc54-ff8347b97e81" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - Samsung rushed the Galaxy Note 7 to beat Apple and released phones with faulty batteries that overheated worldwide. - The rush led to recalls, lost trust, and significant brand damage. #### 💬 Quote > In their rush, they had some fatal flaws to those batteries. > — Sarah Schnitker Sarah Schnitker on Samsung releasing the Note 7 prematurely #### 📚 Transcript **Sarah Schnitker:** Samsung had seen that they might have an opportunity. Apple iPhone 7 was going to be coming out that year, and everyone had heard, oh, it's going to be kind of a dull update. And Samsung thought this could be a great opportunity to deliver their new splashy product with the Galaxy Note 7. And so they were rushing to this deadline. However, as we heard in that clip, things did not go well. In their rush, they had some fatal flaws to those batteries. And this was creating all kinds of issues worldwide. And I think most ominously on airplanes, that the devices were overheating. And there was serious fear that this could cause a fire on a plane that would be really catastrophic. And so people were afraid to travel with their devices. There were warnings that came out. It was not good. I **Shankar Vedantam:** mean, I understand that Samsung eventually had to issue a recall. You know, regulators started banning the phone from various locations. This is not what you want when you're trying to sell a device to consumers. This **Sarah Schnitker:** is not what you want. And I was actually a Samsung owner at the time. And I remember like, oh no, should I still be having this Samsung? I hadn't upgraded it. It led to some serious loss of confidence in the brand. --- ### [Brains Hate Uncertainty](https://share.snipd.com/snip/305c8d83-ecf6-4eb0-af80-eeda24328a83) 🎧 19:48 - 21:03 (01:15) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/cfefcff6-71ad-419f-911d-8acbe29589e2" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - Humans crave certainty because uncertainty historically signaled threat and risk to survival. - That craving drives people to embrace quick, sometimes harmful, fixes when anxious. #### 💬 Quote > Human beings want to have answers. We want to have a predictable world where we know when I do X, I get Y. > — Sarah Schnitker Sarah Schnitker on why people seek certainty during crises #### 📚 Transcript **Sarah Schnitker:** Yes, human beings want to have answers. We want to have a predictable world where we know when I do X, I get Y. And so we really struggle in situations like the global pandemic when we don't know what's going on, we don't know what to do, and you see people resorting to really dangerous behaviors like drinking bleach because someone told them this is a way to fix it, said it with certainty. And so we rush forward toward that certainty, even though it might actually harm us. **Shankar Vedantam:** And in some ways, when you see a story like this, you know, with a compassionate lens, the people who are doing this are doing this because they're afraid. They're doing this because they're worried. They're doing this because they're scared. They don't know what's going to happen. And they're trying to protect themselves. **Sarah Schnitker:** Exactly. And I think this is not just kind of a minor fear. It's a global pandemic. And I'm afraid I'm going to die or my loved ones are going to die. And our minds just latch on to something that sounds certain and take action. --- ### [Patience Needs Courage](https://share.snipd.com/snip/70adc403-d143-4914-956c-f9b4420d8763) 🎧 28:34 - 30:34 (01:59) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/cb65270d-2b58-4003-bc8a-9e4bec11217f" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - Patience has a virtuous form but can become passivity when overused, creating a harmful 'too patient' stance. - Effective action balances patience with courage to avoid passivity or recklessness. #### 💬 Quote > Virtuous patience, good patience, is always a virtue. But there is a vice of what might be called too much patience. > — Sarah Schnitker Sarah Schnitker on limits of patience and need for courage #### 📚 Transcript **Shankar Vedantam:** I'm curious, Sarah, about the potential limits of patience. In his famous letter from Birmingham jail, the Reverend Martin Luther King Jr. expressed his frustration with hearing the word wait time and time again when it came to civil rights. In another speech he made on the subject, he actually makes a case for the virtues of impatience. Here he is. We have also come to this hallowed spot to remind America of the fierce urgency of now. This is no time to engage in **Jennifer Tosti-Kharas:** the luxury of cooling off or to take the tranquilizing drug of gradualism. **Shankar Vedantam:** Is patience always a virtue, Sarah? **Sarah Schnitker:** I think what we might say is that virtuous patience, good patience, is always a virtue. But there is a vice of what might be called too much patience. So you can be reckless and move forward with violence and recklessness toward your goal, which we often think about as impatience. But you can also fall prey to passivity or inaction or in waiting too long. And so to truly be doing patience well, we have to find that real sweet spot, that golden mean between recklessness and passivity. And so you see that MLK is calling out in this speech that, no, we should not be waiting any longer. We demand rights and equality. And MLK is just a really interesting example for patience because it takes immense patience to practice civil disobedience. And yet he knew that patience had its limits and that just waiting around is not going to get you there towards a just and good society. --- ### [Name Your Frustration](https://share.snipd.com/snip/923c6f72-39a3-4f4a-8e2e-e83794f015c1) 🎧 41:06 - 42:36 (01:29) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/7f79b42e-5eef-42cb-af21-d1182c76d870" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - When impatient, stop and name the feeling instead of suppressing it to reduce its power. - Observing the emotion briefly makes it easier to respond patiently. #### 💬 Quote > People who are patient don't actually try to suppress their feelings. Instead, they acknowledge them and that it's okay to take that moment and say, oh, I'm really frustrated... > — Sarah Schnitker Sarah Schnitker advising on emotional regulation to build patience #### 📚 Transcript **Shankar Vedantam:** I want to go over some of your ideas on how we can build patience. You say that one way to do this is that when we're feeling impatient, we should stop and reflect on the experience. Now, I think most people want to do exactly the opposite. They don't want to focus on the fact that they're feeling impatient. In fact, they want to get rid of that feeling as quickly as possible. What's the point of dwelling on it, Sarah? **Sarah Schnitker:** Yes, I think it's somewhat counterintuitive, right? We often think of patients like, don't be upset, don't be upset. But we actually find that does not work. And people who are patient don't actually try to suppress their feelings. Instead, they acknowledge them and that it's okay to take that moment and say, oh, I'm really frustrated with this person in the workplace who is asking me the same question for the 15th time this week or my partner who is making that funny noise that they always make or my child who's throwing a temper tantrum, right? We actually stop and pause and say, oh, this is what I'm feeling. And just let that feeling be there for a moment. That actually removes some of the power of that feeling. And what you also see is if you can almost try to observe that feeling as a third person, of just feeling it to say, okay, this is what I'm feeling. I can understand why. --- ### [Reframe To Reduce Impatience](https://share.snipd.com/snip/22dd0124-09c5-4ad7-b56c-8a20ae6fbb15) 🎧 42:46 - 43:40 (00:54) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/f8cfc130-5940-492f-8750-9416abdb7ea5" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - Reappraise waiting moments by finding a benefit or seeing the other's perspective to reduce impatience. - Framing a line as practice or a child's tantrum as lack of words helps you stay calm. #### 💬 Quote > One common reappraisal strategy is benefit finding. So what is the good thing that I can notice in this scenario? > — Sarah Schnitker Sarah Schnitker explaining reappraisal as a patience strategy #### 📚 Transcript **Sarah Schnitker:** Yeah. So reappraisal is really just this trick of learning to think about a situation differently. So one common reappraisal strategy is benefit finding. So what is the good thing that I can notice in this scenario? And I know for myself, sometimes it's just, oh, great, this is an opportunity to practice my patience waiting in this line. Reappraisal could also include about it from someone else's perspective. So why is this three-year screaming on the ground and kicking? Oh, because they don't have the words or the capacities to tell me what they want. And so this is all they've got, and I'm going to feel for them and how they're feeling. And so that reappraisal is just shown across many, many studies just to be a highly effective way of regulating and helping yourself become more patient. --- ### [Use Flow To Survive Waiting](https://share.snipd.com/snip/cd56dbff-0918-4540-bd0e-f3ffa0bf36cb) 🎧 43:41 - 45:34 (01:53) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/a34fefb9-0329-4875-8ecf-6526592aa0a4" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - Seek flow during waiting by immersing in absorbing tasks to make uncertain periods tolerable. - Use travel writing, games, or creative tasks to turn downtime into productive flow time. #### 💬 Quote > Engaging in these flow experiences really helped people across time, not just in the moment, but even later when the researchers followed up with them. > — Sarah Schnitker Sarah Schnitker discussing flow during COVID lockdowns #### 📚 Transcript **Shankar Vedantam:** researcher Kate Sweeney ran a study that looked at how people spent their time during the COVID-19 pandemic. She found that some people were better able to deal with their impatience than others. Can you describe for me what the study found? Yes. **Sarah Schnitker:** What Kate and her colleagues found is that when people were able to immerse themselves in activities and experience what we call flow, that state really helped people to cope well with COVID-19 and all the stressors of the pandemic in China, in particular, during the most intense lockdowns. And so engaging in these flow experiences really helped people across time, not just in the moment, but even later when the researchers followed up with them, people who were able to do that were able to be patient, whether it was cooking homemade meals or playing video games even, which we often think of as a negative thing. They found that that can actually induce a flow state. And this was important in that time of really heightened uncertainty. **Shankar Vedantam:** You know, I find sometimes when I'm waiting in line or waiting on hold, I'll pull out my phone and I'll start playing a game of chess. And within about five or six minutes, I'm so absorbed in the game that when someone finally comes on the phone, I'm like, why are you interrupting my game? This is far more important than anything I need to talk to you about. Exactly. How dare you have come back so quickly? **Sarah Schnitker:** Yes, I feel the same way. I love to do my writing when I travel. And so it makes that wait in the airport or on the plane just so much faster when I'm like, oh, no, the flight's almost over. I want longer. --- ### [Purpose Makes Patience Sustainable](https://share.snipd.com/snip/3efb5c30-da7f-4d99-a62f-d3ec51b0893c) 🎧 45:46 - 47:05 (01:19) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/5f4737ac-5930-4cd5-9b84-34156e503a6a" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - A strong sense of purpose (a 'why') makes patience easier and sustains long-term practice. - Purpose beyond self motivates reappraisal, naming emotions, and growth in patience over time. #### 💬 Quote > When you have that big why, it becomes much easier to practice the how, to actually practice your reappraisal, to practice your naming of the emotion... > — Sarah Schnitker Sarah Schnitker on how purpose supports patience #### 📚 Transcript **Shankar Vedantam:** We've talked previously on the show, Sarah, about how purpose can give us patience when it comes to achieving difficult goals. When we know why we are doing something, it becomes easier to bear the setbacks along the way. Talk about the role of purpose in helping us deal with our impatience. It **Sarah Schnitker:** can really motivate us to do better when it comes to patience, when we have a reason for that waiting and for that suffering, that we need a higher order purpose, a why. Why do I continue to suffer in this way? Why should I wait for this thing patiently? When you have that big why, it becomes much easier to practice the how, to actually practice your reappraisal, to practice your naming of the emotion, to get into that flow state. And what we find is that when that purpose is bigger than yourself, it's not just about me and my pleasure and my positive emotions. Instead, it's something bigger than me. We find in our research that when people have that, they're actually able to be more patient and they actually grow more in patience over time. --- ### [Ramadan As Patience Training](https://share.snipd.com/snip/5abb756b-31d3-471a-80d2-bfe6ca588310) 🎧 47:15 - 49:13 (01:58) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/afc729ee-1b03-4f2d-b92c-10bc2a5e61f8" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - During Ramadan, Muslim adolescents trained in fasting and communal rituals and showed increased patience. - Gains in patience persisted a month after Ramadan ended, especially when tied to communal purpose. #### 💬 Quote > Ramadan in Islam actually is called the month of patience. > — Sarah Schnitker Sarah Schnitker describing research on adolescents during Ramadan #### 📚 Transcript **Sarah Schnitker:** So Ramadan in Islam actually is called the month patience. And so during the month of Ramadan, devout Muslims will dry fast from sunrise to sunset. So that means no food or drink, not even water across all of daylight. And this is an incredibly challenging time, but it's also a time of great spirituality. And that the Islamic community, you see there are all kinds of special rituals and prayers and meals to break the fast or to begin it. And so what we found in our research is that when teenagers were engaged in this Ramadan sacred time, that they actually grew in their patience. And then what was really cool is that a month after Ramadan was over, so back to just kind of normal daily life, they actually sustained some gains in patience. So they were still more patient than before Ramadan had began. So what we interpret as going on here is that they are doing this really difficult training in patience, and it feels like suffering in the moment. And you really want to be able to get that drink and having to wait for that sun to set is difficult. So when they practice their patients, but do it for a bigger reason, to bring glory to Allah and to be a part of their community and do this together with others, it really seems to be a powerful intervention that I'm not doing this for myself, for my physical fitness. I'm doing this because this is what good Muslims do. And we are doing this for the sake of this higher power. And that is an incredibly potent experience. And our data show that it indeed has these benefits for patients long term. --- ### [Impatience Harms Health](https://share.snipd.com/snip/75e30c26-cef6-44b3-a4c8-a32864247e94) 🎧 50:14 - 51:14 (00:59) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/f6f20efe-9987-417d-b34b-b612c8744af4" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - Chronic impatience correlates with higher heart risk, anxiety, loneliness, and depressive symptoms. - Conversely, growing patience helps reduce depression and improves stress handling over time. #### 💬 Quote > One of the most robust associations we found in my research is that impatience is associated with greater depressive symptoms. > — Sarah Schnitker Sarah Schnitker summarizing health costs of impatience #### 📚 Transcript **Shankar Vedantam:** I'm wondering, Sarah, if we can take a moment and talk about what scientists like yourself are finding about the costs of impatience. Yes, **Sarah Schnitker:** we see that impatience leads to not just irritability or negative emotions, but higher risk of heart problems, difficulty handling stressors. Stress starts to actually become anxiety. We see it can lead to a lack of self-control. We also see that impatience is associated with loneliness. So I think this makes a lot of sense. If you are unable to be patient with other people and you are impatient toward them, that's going to be a strain on the relationship. It's going to be harder to have those deep connections. Then we also see one of the most robust associations we found in my research is that impatience is associated with greater depressive symptoms. --- ### [Be Gentle With Your Progress](https://share.snipd.com/snip/338b98d7-6dbd-4dea-8138-0295a9558993) 🎧 52:10 - 53:35 (01:25) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/7ad1b59c-df3c-4e32-a0ba-96096efda344" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - Be patient with yourself: accept limitations and treat growth as a slow process requiring practice. - Avoid expecting quick mastery and give yourself repeated, small chances to improve. #### 💬 Quote > Patience with ourselves is partly recognizing our own limitations as humans, that we are not superhuman... > — Sarah Schnitker Sarah Schnitker on self-patience and realistic expectations #### 📚 Transcript **Sarah Schnitker:** Patience with ourselves is quite critical. Oftentimes, people have expectations for themselves that might even be higher than the expectations they have for others. And so patience with ourselves is partly recognizing our own limitations as humans, that we are not superhuman, that we are just human beings and flawed like everyone else. Just like we have to have self-compassion, we also have to have patience with ourselves and realize that growth and whether that's growth in kind of our character, our morals, our abilities, our relationships, that we're not going to be where we want to be right now and that it's a long game. There was a famous quote, I think it was Stanislaw Leck said, you have to have a lot of patience to become more patient. And, you know, someone might listen to a session like this and say, okay, I'm going to become more patient and really try to do it quickly and then become discouraged and just give up and say, oh, I'm just an impatient person. I can't be good at this. So I think learning to have patience is a slow go and it's going to take a lot to practice. --- ### [Harrison Ford's Carpentry Detour](https://share.snipd.com/snip/a7496dc6-521a-4181-b9df-91a5c35d4876) 🎧 56:42 - 57:26 (00:44) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/2bd7ddfc-ee2b-4c0d-aa9c-f409cc1df5f8" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - Harrison Ford left acting to work as a carpenter while supporting his family but kept pursuing acting on the side. - A chance reading gig led to his casting in Star Wars and a major career turn. #### 💬 Quote > He had purchased a rundown home in the Hollywood Hills and spent his free time teaching himself to fix it up. > — Shankar Vedantam Shankar Vedantam recounting Harrison Ford's pre-fame carpentry work #### 📚 Transcript **Shankar Vedantam:** But Harrison Ford never quite gave up the dream of landing a major film role. One day, he ran into an old acquaintance as he was working on a carpentry project for the director Francis Ford Coppola. The acquaintance? A young director named George Lucas. The director asked the wannabe movie star to read lines with actors auditioning for his new film. It was a little project called Star Wars. The rest, as they say, is history. Harrison Ford landed a starring role in one of the most significant movie franchises of the 20th century. He hasn't done many carpentry gigs since then. --- ### [Meaning Is In The Eye Of The Worker](https://share.snipd.com/snip/ecb4f656-8695-4ab6-8f84-a6c3475f99d0) 🎧 58:32 - 01:00:06 (01:33) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/97bfa12d-50bb-4709-8a61-610116fb2759" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - People view the same work as a job, career, or calling depending on personal meaning, not job type. - About one-third of people typically report each orientation across occupations. #### 💬 Quote > The meaning of the work in this framework is really in the eye of the beholder. > — Jennifer Tosti-Kharas Jennifer Tosti-Kharas explaining job/career/calling distinctions #### 📚 Transcript **Shankar Vedantam:** She suggested that people think of their work in one of three ways, as a job, as a career, or as a calling. Talk about these three categories and what Amy found when she asked people to talk about their work. So **Jennifer Tosti-Kharas:** just to break them down, a job orientation is when you work primarily for the extrinsic rewards from that work. So work is a means to an end, and it's typically a financial end. So working primarily for the money it provides, and maybe then you pursue a passion outside of work, that's a job. A career is when you similarly work as a means to an end, but this time it is the means to advancing within either an organizational hierarchy, picture climbing the typical career ladder, or gaining respect and centrality in an occupational community. So picture like, you know, coders who like to gain the respect of others, like, whoa, you wrote that code, that would be a career orientation toward the work. Then finally, we have a calling. And when work is a calling, it is not a means to an end, but a meaningful end in and of itself. It is a source of fulfillment, of passion. You often feel consumed by the work. And often, but not always, you would say your work makes the world a better place. It's just a major, major part of who you are, pretty much inseparable from life compared to the other two. --- ### [Callings Increase Engagement And Purpose](https://share.snipd.com/snip/e99c78e8-6f56-464b-ab03-86c22a744d99) 🎧 01:02:03 - 01:02:57 (00:54) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/d2cbd705-751f-4d2d-b39e-1b1679eec63d" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - Callings boost engagement: higher effort, attendance, quality work, and life meaning beyond the job. - This extra engagement spills into broader well-being and purpose. #### 💬 Quote > These are the employees who go above and beyond. They put in the effort. > — Jennifer Tosti-Kharas Jennifer Tosti-Kharas on benefits of experiencing work as a calling #### 📚 Transcript **Jennifer Tosti-Kharas:** Yeah, a lot of the benefits of calling are really driven by an extra engagement in and motivation to do that work. So these are the employees who go above and beyond. They put in the effort. They show up to work. They don't miss as much work. The work they do is potentially very good and very high quality. They're very diligent about it. They just, they care about doing that work a lot. there are benefits for the worker themself. So research, including my own, has found that experiencing a calling toward your work spills over to benefit your life as a whole. So we might say it gives your life meaning, it gives you a purpose. That's really good for us in general. --- ### [The Downside Of Overstrong Callings](https://share.snipd.com/snip/1803d8e6-bb33-47d2-aeef-a70c61d54055) 🎧 01:03:17 - 01:04:21 (01:03) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/593a0865-0a20-451d-97b3-b61273cb4a39" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - Strong callings can become overcommitments that harm health, relationships, and sustainability. - Callings are healthiest in a balanced, moderate range rather than at extremes. #### 💬 Quote > That extra passion... can turn into an over commitment where you're almost doing too much. > — Jennifer Tosti-Kharas Jennifer Tosti-Kharas on costs of intense callings #### 📚 Transcript **Jennifer Tosti-Kharas:** Yeah, so this is sort of that other side of the coin that as good as callings can be, there's also this side of it where that extra passion, that extra effort, that willingness to go above and beyond can turn into an over commitment where you're almost doing too much. You're putting in too much of yourself and then not leaving room for other areas of your life and potentially opening yourself up to exploitation. So along with my co-author on my book, Is Your Work Worth It? Christopher Michelson, we've started exploring in some more recent work this notion that maybe callings are best experienced not as an extreme high or an extreme low, but really in this sort of middle space. And when we push to those extremes is when we see some of the downsides, either we're not at all committed or we're overcommitted. --- ### [Align Work Values With Partners](https://share.snipd.com/snip/992aae45-f10d-4f1d-b380-88e58e3e33fc) 🎧 01:04:23 - 01:07:12 (02:49) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/39e1ac10-35bb-4e86-9e44-64a1291030ef" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - If partners hold different work orientations, know that incongruence can reduce job satisfaction and re-employment odds. - Communicate values and negotiate shared expectations to reduce tension. #### 💬 Quote > Greater incongruence not only leads to uncertainty and a longer job search but ultimately a lower probability of re-employment... > — Jennifer Tosti-Kharas Jennifer Tosti-Kharas on couples with different work orientations #### 📚 Transcript **Shankar Vedantam:** We heard from a listener named Elizabeth who says she and her husband have very different expectations about what they will get out of work. I **Sarah Schnitker:** grew up in a family focused on each of us kids finding our calling. Fast forward to me as an adult, and I've tried all different kinds of helping professions in my 15 years post-college in the work field, and I'm still trying to figure it out. And my is tired of me complaining about work not being the perfect fit for me. My husband grew up in a blue collar community. And to him, work is work, you just find something that pays the bills. And the idea of a calling, that's kind of a foreign concept. And so this has been this tension that I've been examining more and more as I continue to seek and not find my calling. In **Shankar Vedantam:** some ways, Jen, what Elizabeth is saying is that people who think of their work as a job and people who think of their work as a calling might look at one another with mutual incomprehension. So **Jennifer Tosti-Kharas:** Elizabeth, thank you for sharing that perspective. That is actually such a common occurrence for couples to have what we might call incongruent work orientations. One feels it's a job, the other feels it's a calling, that it can make it hard to know what do I really want in work? And that this is, and you almost question, just as Elizabeth is doing, you know, is this really what I want? And is, you know, what sort of what am I looking for? And what do I value? And greater incongruence not only leads to you know uncertainty and a longer job search but ultimately a lower probability of re-employment the more incongruence of your work orientation with your partner the less satisfied you are with your job there's an interesting caveat to that unless you are the one with the higher calling, and then you are more satisfied with your job. So it's almost this like social comparison. Now, Elizabeth's example, I think, speaks more to the seeker nature of this. But it suggests that if she were to be employed and feel that that work was her calling, she might actually experience more satisfaction as a function of her husband viewing his work as just a job. --- ### [Check Calling Sustainability Regularly](https://share.snipd.com/snip/87915e9a-706b-486d-9319-d18aa46f298d) 🎧 01:29:10 - 01:30:48 (01:38) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/2172bb26-12fe-4207-9d95-f8f4f7528cb4" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - If a calling threatens health or finances, assess sustainability and consider adjustments to preserve longevity. - Monitor whether sacrifices undermine your capacity to continue the work long term. #### 💬 Quote > If this is a long game and if you are your psychological health, your physical health, your relationships... are compromised, it can keep you from doing the work. > — Jennifer Tosti-Kharas Jennifer Tosti-Kharas advising on balancing passion and well-being #### 📚 Transcript **Jennifer Tosti-Kharas:** telling and powerful about what Catherine said just now is that, I mean, to me, this is such a prototypical downside of a strong calling story in that it's almost like you can't help but not do it. You know it's probably too much. You know that probably it's not great for your health or not great for your relationships, but you've got to do it almost at all costs. I mean, to me, this is that strong calling verging on a too strong calling. And so in terms of how to balance this better, I do think, I mean, Catherine seems nothing if not self-aware about the situation. That would be the first step is just are you even sort of aware of the toll that it's taking on you? She seems to be and then at the same time saying, but she still continues to choose it. I think it's very important to pay attention to if this is a long game and if you are your, you know, psychological health, your physical health, your relationships with others who enable your life or keep you grounded are compromised, but it actually can affect the longevity and sustainability of your ability to do that work. So I think if things get too out of whack, that in and of itself can keep you from doing the work that is so meaningful to you. So if that really is a priority in a big picture, longer term way, are these actions sustained? Can I sustain these actions over time? --- ### [Job Craft To Add Meaning When Options Are Limited](https://share.snipd.com/snip/cd5c6125-98d5-400e-ac05-ed82a9157361) 🎧 01:35:33 - 01:37:31 (01:57) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/68fcdd7c-e642-401f-ae64-b096891986e7" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - If you lack privilege to pursue a calling, consider job crafting to make existing work more meaningful. - Change tasks, relationships, or perspectives to increase fulfillment without quitting for financial risk. #### 💬 Quote > If you have the privilege to be able to change what you do or who you do it with, is there a way you can, as we call it, job craft... > — Jennifer Tosti-Kharas Jennifer Tosti-Kharas addressing privilege and making work meaningful #### 📚 Transcript **Jennifer Tosti-Kharas:** I think that's absolutely true. I mean, there are so many people, if we think about our world and how many people really don't even have freedom to choose whether to work, what they do for work, how much control and autonomy they have over their own, what their own workday looks like. Absolutely, these are questions of privilege, and I don't want to pretend otherwise. I think, first of all, it's important that we think about a society in which no one has to do work that is truly meaningless or denigrated or what David Graeber once referred to as bull**** jobs that just sort of exist to perpetuate a hierarchy with no intrinsic value or purpose. So a subset of the people who do have some choice over what they do for their work, I think the decision to prioritize, well, as Jen says, paying the mortgage and what's safe, I think that's a defensible position. You shouldn't feel less than because you prioritized stability, security, even a certain lifestyle over work that maybe was more lovable or more likable. However, it would be nice if that work didn't make you feel sad or make you feel that you actively dislike it. you have the privilege to be able to change what you do or who you do it with, is there a way you can, as we call it, job craft, to turn that work of patient care into something that seems, you know, less like a drudgery and more like a source of what you find meaningful about work? And I think this is one of the mechanisms that gets to one person's job being another person's calling. are you making of the work? --- ### [Discerning A Calling Through Iteration](https://share.snipd.com/snip/64bd9bfb-d0bf-46af-b296-a04d35339e58) 🎧 01:41:54 - 01:43:46 (01:52) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/4f0265fc-b9b2-48a8-aa0f-131cbc35c0e2" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - To find a calling, pursue iterative, reflective experiences rather than random trial-and-error. - Talk to role models, reflect on signals, and use classes or coaches to guide the search. #### 💬 Quote > It's more about having experiences, but not just at random... but really thoughtfully learning through trial and error. > — Jennifer Tosti-Kharas Jennifer Tosti-Kharas on pathways to finding a calling #### 📚 Transcript **Jennifer Tosti-Kharas:** The one I just described, I know my one true calling, and I sort of venture toward it. And then this other path called discerning a calling, which is really what I see for your callers. It's more about having experiences, but not just at random, not just randomly trying things, know, throw the spaghetti at the wall and see what sticks, but really thoughtfully learning through trial and error. It has to be an iterative, reflective learning process. So you try something, you learn what you liked about it, you learn what you didn't like about it, you try, you know, adjust it accordingly and try again. And that that in and of itself is a pathway toward people ultimately at the end of this feeling like they're in work that was a calling. And also paying attention to, you know, what kind of signals are you getting from outside? So are there people who are exemplars and have a sort of career that you might want? What can you learn from them? Talking to them, talking about their journey, talking about how they knew. I mean, really just talking about callings, getting people's stories and finding inspiration from it. And when all else fails, or not even when all else fails, but just let's not forget, there are also resources, you know, I for the number of times that people have said, they took talk to a coach, or they took a class on, you know, how to change careers, or how to make a pivot, or how to get to meaningful work. I mean, I do think and humbly, as someone who wrote a book about this, I do think reading books, taking courses, talking to a coach, you know, just putting some time and attention to this question of how can I find a calling, it can help. --- Created with [Snipd](https://www.snipd.com) | Highlight & Take Notes from Podcasts