# Broad Stripes, Bright Stars, and White Lies  ## Episode metadata - Episode title: Broad Stripes, Bright Stars, and White Lies - Show: Sidedoor - Owner / Host: Smithsonian Institution - Guests: [Marla R. Miller](https://share.snipd.com/person/f16571a1-37ed-4b1d-b4b9-91230cc9655d), [Marc Leepson](https://share.snipd.com/person/54b2cf83-194f-4856-9066-cb9d8c8c22a3) - Episode publish date: 2026-04-15 - Episode AI description: Marla R. Miller, historian and biographer of Betsy Ross, and Marc Leepson, journalist and author of Flag: An American Biography, unpack myths around the first American flag. They trace the origin story, museum evidence, and how images and family tales made the Betsy Ross legend stick. The conversation also follows how the flag transformed into a sacred national symbol over time. - Mentioned books: [Betsy Ross and the Making of America](https://share.snipd.com/book/c852b973-0da5-4cf4-9357-8ee49ceb5622) by [Marla R. Miller](https://share.snipd.com/person/93a094ae-9945-4fc5-a283-bb525b2e2fef), [Flag](https://share.snipd.com/book/997c9393-f30d-42e8-a17d-048c3c25663d) by [Marc Leepson](https://share.snipd.com/person/54b2cf83-194f-4856-9066-cb9d8c8c22a3) - Duration: 30:33 - Episode URL: [Open in Snipd](https://share.snipd.com/episode/9a2834eb-8ae6-4c96-ab92-ac3cbd23a949) - Show URL: [Open in Snipd](https://share.snipd.com/show/fa9f2106-4050-4379-b8f0-ab3877b94867) - Export date: 2026-07-08T01:12:29 ## Snips ### [No Known Original 13-Star Revolutionary Flag](https://share.snipd.com/snip/98a3bd17-6065-441c-8e35-bf6fa4151fbc) 🎧 04:01 - 04:54 (00:53) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/59c988f3-ec47-4bd9-8523-666940bcd0e0" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - The Smithsonian doesn't hold an original 13-star Revolutionary flag because none have been definitively identified. - Jennifer Locke Jones says no one has actually seen a 13-star flag from the Revolutionary period, so origin and maker remain unknown. #### 💬 Quote > I have never actually seen a 13-star original flag from the Revolutionary period. > — Jennifer Locke Jones Jennifer Locke Jones on the museum's flag collection #### 📚 Transcript **Lizzie Peabody:** So there's only one Star-Spangled Banner. Correct. **Jennifer Locke Jones:** And it was the flag that inspired Francis Scott Key at the Battle of Baltimore in September of 1814 to write the words which later became our national anthem. **Lizzie Peabody:** Okay, so the Star-Spangled Banner is gigantic. It is really something to see. But I was here on a different mission. I wanted to see the Betsy Ross flag, 13 stripes, 13 stars in a circle, from the Revolution, not the War of 1812. Can you show us the **Jennifer Locke Jones:** first American flag? No, we don't have that here. Really? No. I have never actually seen a 13-star original flag from the Revolutionary period. So we really don't know who made it, what it looked like, or if it still exists. --- ### [Early American Flags Were Military Tools](https://share.snipd.com/snip/8798df69-ccf1-49b5-810f-5f1bbb5c3f37) 🎧 09:07 - 11:11 (02:04) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/e8819874-8b9a-4995-9ed1-c3c9f6c45ba9" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - Flags in early America were mainly military tools, not civic symbols, so few civilians cared who made the first flag. - Marc Leepson notes the June 14, 1777 resolution has no recorded debate or credited designer, indicating it was an administrative detail. #### 💬 Quote > From the time we were born in 1776 until 1861, it was almost unheard of for individual Americans to fly the flag. > — Marc Leepson Marc Leepson on flag usage before the Civil War #### 📚 Transcript **Lizzie Peabody:** the Continental Congress voted to create a new American flag. Now someone just had to design it. And I know what you might be thinking. This is where Betsy Ross is like, hold my flag in a veil. **Jennifer Locke Jones:** I got this. But no. The congressman who is credited with actually establishing the look for the first flag was from New Jersey, and it's Francis Hopkinson. Francis Hopkinson was a signer of the Declaration **Lizzie Peabody:** of Independence and a man of many talents. **Marc Leepson:** He wrote operas, he wrote plays, he wrote songs, and he was one of the designers of the Great Seal of the United States. **Lizzie Peabody:** And, like any working artist, he understood the value of a nice line-itemed invoice. He **Marc Leepson:** sent a bill to Congress, which is in the National Archives itself. And that bill says, you know, I'm charging you X amount of money for the design of the flag of the United States. Putting that together, historians believe that it was Francis Hopkinson who designed the first American flag. **Lizzie Peabody:** But for all his talents, Hopkinson wasn't known to sew. So maybe he designed the flag, and then George Washington asked Betsy Ross to bring Hopkinson's vision to life. Mark Leibson says it would be great if we could prove this, but we can't. The whole process of designing the flag is a big blank spot in American history. I mean, you have to remember, flags were just tools the military used. The whole process of creating this new flag have been like redesigning a shovel. **Marc Leepson:** That's one reason why we don't know, you know, who made the first American flag, because nobody cared about it. Very, very few people cared about it. If you read the annals of the Continental Congress, the day that they passed the first flag resolution, June 14th, 1777, there's no mention of who introduced it. There's no mention of any vote or discussion. So it's a strong indication that it was --- ### [Civil War Created The Cult Of The Flag](https://share.snipd.com/snip/8554e0ee-62fb-4fd8-a53f-01cf98254a1a) 🎧 11:29 - 13:45 (02:16) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/89a62579-1045-4e45-bb61-35a67b7447da" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - The Civil War transformed the flag into a sacred national symbol almost overnight, creating a fertile moment for myths. - Marc Leepson explains Northern flag displays, Medal of Honor citations, and the rise of Flag Day and the Pledge of Allegiance during and after the war. #### 💬 Quote > Almost overnight, when the war started, in the North, you saw flags in front of people's houses, schools, churches. > — Marc Leepson Marc Leepson on the flag's symbolic rise during the Civil War #### 📚 Transcript **Lizzie Peabody:** Until in 1861, a rebel army captured Fort Sumter and raised a Confederate flag, starting the American Civil War. There **Marc Leepson:** are very few things in history that change almost immediately. But that's what happened with the flag. Almost overnight, when the war started, in the North, you saw flags in front of people's houses, schools, churches. Women wore little flags in their hats, lapel pins. They put them on wagons. The **Lizzie Peabody:** flag became a symbol for the Union, something for Northerners to rally around. And as the war went on, this pride deepened and turned to love. You **Jennifer Locke Jones:** know, we also have a large Medal of Honor collection here at the museum. And many of the medals of honor during the Civil War period were for flag bearers. Oh, wow. The movement of the flag up and down the field during battle shows the front line of battle. And so capturing the flag or dropping the flag or carrying the flag was seen as very important because you needed to know where your line was, your military line was when you're in battle. And so if someone was killed, if the flag bearer was killed and the flag dropped, the men didn't know where they were, then there was chaos. And so somebody had to step up and actually pick that flag up again. And hold it. And hold it. And they're **Lizzie Peabody:** vulnerable because they're not armed because they're holding the flag. That's correct. More than 600,000 Americans died during the American Civil War, nearly as many as in every other American war combined. No family was untouched by death and sacrifice. And it was during this time that the flag went from being a utilitarian tool to a sacred icon. And **Marc Leepson:** this is the time in American history where what historians call the cult of the flag started. This is when we had the first movement for a National Flag Day holiday. This is when we had the Pledge of Allegiance written, 1892. --- ### [Family Story Turned National Myth By Canby And Weisgerber](https://share.snipd.com/snip/493f44c8-a575-46f7-8cb8-d479ed2b70c3) 🎧 13:52 - 17:03 (03:11) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/b497d696-abec-4590-8908-a965b0711020" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - William Canby publicly promoted the Betsy Ross story in an 1870 Historical Society of Pennsylvania speech based on family accounts. - Charles Weisgerber later reinforced the myth with paintings and museum promotion after buying the Betsy Ross house. #### 💬 Quote > This lady is the one to whom belongs the honor of having made with her own hands the first flag. > — William Canby (read by PJ Tabbit) Excerpt from William Canby's 1870 speech promoting Betsy Ross #### 📚 Transcript **Lizzie Peabody:** By this time, Betsy Ross was long dead. But her grandson, William Canby, he was alive and well. And he'd grown up hearing the story that his grandmother sewed the first American flag. So he might have thought, if people love the flag so much, Grandma Betsy should get some credit. So in 1870, he gives a speech to the Historical Society of Pennsylvania. Mr. **Marc Leepson:** President and the gentlemen of the Historical Society of Pennsylvania. **Lizzie Peabody:** This is a long speech that kind of goes on and on. For a tolerably full account of the colonies' flags. And on. leaders of the revolution were men of intelligence and experience in military. But then Canby drops a bomb. He tells the crowd that the Continental Congress actually adopted the American flag during a secret session in early 1776. And then he reveals who made the flag that General Washington presented during that secret meeting. Elizabeth Betsy Ross. This lady is the one to whom belongs the honor of having made with her own hands the first flag. And after a rousing speech like that, it's no wonder people were shouting the name Ross from the rooftops. Seriously, though, the Betsy Ross story took hold, mostly because Canby had really good timing. The country was healing after a brutal civil war, and having a single flag was a powerful symbol. Plus, America had plenty of founding fathers. Now it had a founding mother. So Betsy Ross was already on her way to becoming an American icon when something sealed her bonneted face forever in the collective American imagination. A painting. **Marc Leepson:** When I do talks, when I get to Betsy Ross, I say, you know, I know what you're thinking, right? And I know what they're thinking. They're thinking of that picture. You know, Betsy Ross sitting in her parlor on Arch Street. The flag is on her lap. A sunbeam is coming through, illuminating it. The Flag Committee of the Continental Congress is hovering over her. **Lizzie Peabody:** You've probably seen this painting at some point in your life. It was even on stamps in the 1950s. For me, it was in that fourth grade social studies book. That **Marc Leepson:** picture is completely made up. **Lizzie Peabody:** The painting we all know was dreamt up by a guy named Charles Weisgerber. He painted the birth of our nation's flag more than 100 years after the scene supposedly took place. And it's entirely a product of his imagination. But accuracy wasn't Weisgerber's goal. It **Marc Leepson:** was part of Weisgerber's promotion of the Betsy Ross myth, and not coincidentally, the Betsy Ross house, which he owned and was his tourist attraction. So, I mean, I don't want to be cynical. **Lizzie Peabody:** It was part of his marketing plan. **Marc Leepson:** Listen, you're 100 percent right. **Lizzie Peabody:** Charles Weisgerber, marketing genius, was also apparently a Betsy Ross superfan. He loved her story so much, he bought her old house in Philadelphia and spent the rest of his life promoting her legacy. --- ### [Betsy Ross As Professional Government Contractor](https://share.snipd.com/snip/383a0526-f987-4f21-8769-c7001cace678) 🎧 18:10 - 23:01 (04:50) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/62df8e8c-0212-47da-9d09-1e58bc1a8aa2" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - Marla R. Miller reconstructs Betsy Ross as a commercial upholsterer and contractor who hustled for government work during 1776. - Miller suggests Ross likely taught Washington a simpler way to cut a five-pointed star and later bid on flag contracts. #### 💬 Quote > I always say, like, it's Betsy Ross government contractor is what we need to be thinking. > — Marla R. Miller Marla R. Miller on Betsy Ross's role as an upholsterer and contractor #### 📚 Transcript **Lizzie Peabody:** Marla Miller didn't plan to write a book about Betsy Ross. She just wanted to read one. But when she went off in search of a good biography, all she found were children's books and a whole bunch of other weird stuff. You'll **Marla R. Miller:** see salt and pepper shakers with like a little mini Betsy Ross. There's many, many dolls and all kinds of silliness. **Lizzie Peabody:** There's a Pez head that comes out. There's a Betsy Ross Pez head? There's a Betsy Ross Pez head. So Miller figured if there's no book on Betsy Ross, maybe she should just write one. And she did. She's the author of Betsy Ross and the Making of America. And there's one thing she thinks we should all know about Betsy Ross. She **Marla R. Miller:** was a badass. That's how I like to think about her. Betsy Ross got the job done. **Lizzie Peabody:** Ross was hustling and sewing her entire life. She started working when she was a teenager to help support her family. **Marla R. Miller:** She was the eighth of their 17 children. Oh my gosh. Hold on. What? Yeah. Not all survived to adulthood, as is common in that time and place. But she was in the middle of a big family. Betsy **Lizzie Peabody:** was born Elizabeth Griscom. And at the age of 21, she rebelled against her strict Quaker upbringing. She ran away and married John Ross, who was not a Quaker. And this led her family to basically disown her. So she and John fled to the big city, Philadelphia. They opened up an upholstery shop, and things were really good for a couple of years, until John died in an explosion during the Revolutionary War. So **Marla R. Miller:** there she is. It's January of 76, and she's a young widow. And at that time, in the course of the Revolution, Philadelphia is fearful that the British Navy is going to appear. And so there is a mad scramble to create what's **Lizzie Peabody:** essentially the first navy. And what does the Navy need? You know, besides ships. That's right, flags. Anyone who could push a needle through a piece of fabric was competing for government contracts to sew these flags. It didn't matter if you were a dressmaker, a saddler, or an upholsterer. The government was desperate for flags. And Ross no longer had her family or a husband to help support her. She was desperate, too. And **Marla R. Miller:** I think that Betsy Ross saw that happening and wanted to get on the Rolodex for those contracts. And so I always say, like, it's Betsy Ross government contractor is what we need to be thinking. Betsy **Lizzie Peabody:** Ross, government contractor, wasn't sitting at home quietly sewing on her lap. She was out kicking butts and taking names. She sniffed tobacco, ran a commercial upholstery shop, and wasn't afraid to get her hands dirty. **Marla R. Miller:** It's pretty physical labor. I mean, this is one of the things that I appreciate about Betsy Ross, because we think of her as being this, you know, sedate little seamstress. But if you ever look upholstery tools, if you look at the needles that upholsterers use, they are wicked. Okay, **Lizzie Peabody:** so in the spring of 1776, Betsy Ross is out competing for these flag contracts, and George Washington needs a flag maker. The historical record is a little fuzzy here, but this is what Marla Miller thinks probably **Marla R. Miller:** went down. George Washington and two other members of the Continental Congress come to her shop. And they hand her a sketch and say, Could you make us one of these? And she looks at that and says, Well, yeah, these red and white stripes, they look good. And **Lizzie Peabody:** I see you have this field of stars and they have six points. And Betsy says, you know, the star should be five pointed, right? And they're like, yeah, we know, but it's really hard to make a five pointed star. And Betsy says, nothing easier. She pulls out, we don't know if it's fabric, **Marla R. Miller:** we don't know if it's paper, but she folds out a little scrap, just so, and with one snip of the scissors, out pops this five-pointed star. And so they, you know, applaud. They're there. That looks great. **Lizzie Peabody:** Love it. They all cheer. Marla Miller says this is most likely the Betsy Ross contribution to the American flag. General Washington couldn't figure out how to make a five-pointed star for his new flag. And she gave him some help. And she did it simply because she had the skills to pay the bills. --- ### [Notarized Family Accounts Built The Betsy Ross Claim](https://share.snipd.com/snip/f4e9a331-cf7a-44b1-919d-5d70918daa06) 🎧 24:00 - 26:08 (02:08) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/99ef1ef4-1aeb-42a9-a8e2-e73b23db535a" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - The notarized family testimonies collected in the 19th century formed the archival basis for the Betsy Ross claim, but they remain family stories. - Mark Leepson warns family recollections are the weakest historical evidence. #### 💬 Quote > The Betsy Ross story is based 100% on family stories. > — Marc Leepson Marc Leepson on the evidentiary basis for the Betsy Ross myth #### 📚 Transcript **Lizzie Peabody:** at this work. She would appreciate the work. But all we have to go on are the Ross family stories. Family **Marc Leepson:** stories are the least reliable form of historical evidence. This **Lizzie Peabody:** is historian Mark Leapson again. The **Marc Leepson:** Betsy Ross story is based 100% on family stories. And when historians judge the merits of historical evidence, you know what's on the bottom? Family **Lizzie Peabody:** stories. After all, families have a way of embellishing the accomplishments of their ancestors. But let's take a closer look at the story William Canby told the Pennsylvania Historical Society in 1870. Where did he get it from? **Marla R. Miller:** I always like to take it back a generation because he got the story from Betsy's daughter, Clarissa. Clarissa is in many ways the hero of this tale. **Lizzie Peabody:** Clarissa worked beside her mother in the upholstery shop for years. Doing what? Making flags. Miller says that by the mid-1800s, revolutionary heroes were starting to die of old age. And there were a ton of books being written about them. But Clarissa wasn't seeing her mom's name anywhere. And **Marla R. Miller:** so she allegedly sits her nephew down, William Canby, and says, I want you to take this down. This story **Lizzie Peabody:** is important. And she tells little Will how his grandmother showed the father of our great nation how to make a five-pointed star for the flag. And Canby is like, that is so cool. But what if people don't believe us? Is there any proof of this? And Clarissa's like, well, here's the deal. No, there really is no proof. And so **Marla R. Miller:** instead, he asked all of these relatives to go to an attorney, go to a notary, and tell the story as you remember hearing it. And then that became sort of the archival basis for the story as it was in 1870. So instead of letting this story **Lizzie Peabody:** get distorted generation to generation in a game of family telephone, the notarized accounts are like a voicemail from the past. --- ### [1857 Diary Star Doodle Corroborates Family Tale](https://share.snipd.com/snip/92ee9789-10ac-43eb-b6d4-9d464abee50e) 🎧 26:14 - 27:20 (01:06) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/70de7bd7-87bd-4ea5-8b41-5c2fb87a763e" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - Marla R. Miller found an 1857 diary doodle: artist Joseph Boggs Beal sketched a five-pointed star after hearing the Ross family account. - That sketch is a contemporaneous family-circulated clue that the five-point story circulated mid-19th century. #### 💬 Quote > At the bottom of this page is a five-pointed star. > — Marla R. Miller Marla R. Miller describing Joseph Boggs Beal's diary entry #### 📚 Transcript **Lizzie Peabody:** It's still something from a family member, but from another perspective. This is interesting. So one **Marla R. Miller:** of Betsy's extended family members is an illustrator named Joseph Boggs Beal. He was very important in the 19th century **Lizzie Peabody:** as an artist. While Miller was digging through the Ross family historical documents, she came across one of Boggs Beal's diaries. And while she was leafing through it, she found an entry from February 1857. Boggs Beals is heading over to Clarice's house for a big family gathering. All **Marla R. Miller:** the players are there. And in the diary, although he's an artist, there are no other doodles. At the bottom of this page is a five-pointed star. And I looked at that and it gave me a chill and it's hard not to think. He came home from that and wrote up, you know, his evening and that he heard a story that night about a five-pointed star. --- ### [Focus Beyond Firsts To Richer Historical Stories](https://share.snipd.com/snip/b4c64b3b-984c-453a-9404-e2dd452a538d) 🎧 27:57 - 29:29 (01:32) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/7de0300a-91c6-47f4-979e-9209f1f6d5a1" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - Stop fixating on who was 'first' and instead explore broader historical contributions and contexts. - Jennifer Locke Jones and Marla R. Miller advise focusing on perseverance, nuance, and the many flagmakers like Rebecca Young and Mary Pickersgill. #### 💬 Quote > I don't think that that's the way we should be thinking of history. It isn't always about the first. > — Jennifer Locke Jones Jennifer Locke Jones on shifting historical focus from firsts to nuance #### 📚 Transcript **Lizzie Peabody:** Miller says this is the problem with being fixated on the first, because we miss the rest of the story. Should we stop asking who sewed the first American flag? I would very **Marla R. Miller:** much love it if that happened. Why? It just derails more thoughtful and interesting conversations. You know, we have this tendency in our culture to want to look for firsts, and they're almost all flawed. So what really is the first one, and what does it tell us? I'm not sure it's a useful question. The first is just that **Jennifer Locke Jones:** it's a first, but it doesn't mean it's the most important. This is the Smithsonian's Jennifer Jones **Lizzie Peabody:** again. I **Jennifer Locke Jones:** don't think that that's the way we should be thinking of history. It isn't always about the first. It is about perseverance. And I think part of our work as historians is to give our history more nuance and add to that narrative, because that makes us more rich as **Lizzie Peabody:** a nation. Marla Miller, Mark Leapson, and Jennifer Jones all agree on one thing. Our history is too rich to fixate on a single accomplishment in any one person's life. This would be like focusing on an individual thread in an intricately woven tapestry. --- Created with [Snipd](https://www.snipd.com) | Highlight & Take Notes from Podcasts # Snips updated after 2026-04-05T10:16:17 ### [No Known Original 13-Star Revolutionary Flag](https://share.snipd.com/snip/98a3bd17-6065-441c-8e35-bf6fa4151fbc) 🎧 04:01 - 04:54 (00:53) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/59c988f3-ec47-4bd9-8523-666940bcd0e0" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - The Smithsonian doesn't hold an original 13-star Revolutionary flag because none have been definitively identified. - Jennifer Locke Jones says no one has actually seen a 13-star flag from the Revolutionary period, so origin and maker remain unknown. #### 💬 Quote > I have never actually seen a 13-star original flag from the Revolutionary period. > — Jennifer Locke Jones Jennifer Locke Jones on the museum's flag collection #### 📚 Transcript **Lizzie Peabody:** So there's only one Star-Spangled Banner. Correct. **Jennifer Locke Jones:** And it was the flag that inspired Francis Scott Key at the Battle of Baltimore in September of 1814 to write the words which later became our national anthem. **Lizzie Peabody:** Okay, so the Star-Spangled Banner is gigantic. It is really something to see. But I was here on a different mission. I wanted to see the Betsy Ross flag, 13 stripes, 13 stars in a circle, from the Revolution, not the War of 1812. Can you show us the **Jennifer Locke Jones:** first American flag? No, we don't have that here. Really? No. I have never actually seen a 13-star original flag from the Revolutionary period. So we really don't know who made it, what it looked like, or if it still exists. --- ### [Early American Flags Were Military Tools](https://share.snipd.com/snip/8798df69-ccf1-49b5-810f-5f1bbb5c3f37) 🎧 09:07 - 11:11 (02:04) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/e8819874-8b9a-4995-9ed1-c3c9f6c45ba9" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - Flags in early America were mainly military tools, not civic symbols, so few civilians cared who made the first flag. - Marc Leepson notes the June 14, 1777 resolution has no recorded debate or credited designer, indicating it was an administrative detail. #### 💬 Quote > From the time we were born in 1776 until 1861, it was almost unheard of for individual Americans to fly the flag. > — Marc Leepson Marc Leepson on flag usage before the Civil War #### 📚 Transcript **Lizzie Peabody:** the Continental Congress voted to create a new American flag. Now someone just had to design it. And I know what you might be thinking. This is where Betsy Ross is like, hold my flag in a veil. **Jennifer Locke Jones:** I got this. But no. The congressman who is credited with actually establishing the look for the first flag was from New Jersey, and it's Francis Hopkinson. Francis Hopkinson was a signer of the Declaration **Lizzie Peabody:** of Independence and a man of many talents. **Marc Leepson:** He wrote operas, he wrote plays, he wrote songs, and he was one of the designers of the Great Seal of the United States. **Lizzie Peabody:** And, like any working artist, he understood the value of a nice line-itemed invoice. He **Marc Leepson:** sent a bill to Congress, which is in the National Archives itself. And that bill says, you know, I'm charging you X amount of money for the design of the flag of the United States. Putting that together, historians believe that it was Francis Hopkinson who designed the first American flag. **Lizzie Peabody:** But for all his talents, Hopkinson wasn't known to sew. So maybe he designed the flag, and then George Washington asked Betsy Ross to bring Hopkinson's vision to life. Mark Leibson says it would be great if we could prove this, but we can't. The whole process of designing the flag is a big blank spot in American history. I mean, you have to remember, flags were just tools the military used. The whole process of creating this new flag have been like redesigning a shovel. **Marc Leepson:** That's one reason why we don't know, you know, who made the first American flag, because nobody cared about it. Very, very few people cared about it. If you read the annals of the Continental Congress, the day that they passed the first flag resolution, June 14th, 1777, there's no mention of who introduced it. There's no mention of any vote or discussion. So it's a strong indication that it was --- ### [Civil War Created The Cult Of The Flag](https://share.snipd.com/snip/8554e0ee-62fb-4fd8-a53f-01cf98254a1a) 🎧 11:29 - 13:45 (02:16) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/89a62579-1045-4e45-bb61-35a67b7447da" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - The Civil War transformed the flag into a sacred national symbol almost overnight, creating a fertile moment for myths. - Marc Leepson explains Northern flag displays, Medal of Honor citations, and the rise of Flag Day and the Pledge of Allegiance during and after the war. #### 💬 Quote > Almost overnight, when the war started, in the North, you saw flags in front of people's houses, schools, churches. > — Marc Leepson Marc Leepson on the flag's symbolic rise during the Civil War #### 📚 Transcript **Lizzie Peabody:** Until in 1861, a rebel army captured Fort Sumter and raised a Confederate flag, starting the American Civil War. There **Marc Leepson:** are very few things in history that change almost immediately. But that's what happened with the flag. Almost overnight, when the war started, in the North, you saw flags in front of people's houses, schools, churches. Women wore little flags in their hats, lapel pins. They put them on wagons. The **Lizzie Peabody:** flag became a symbol for the Union, something for Northerners to rally around. And as the war went on, this pride deepened and turned to love. You **Jennifer Locke Jones:** know, we also have a large Medal of Honor collection here at the museum. And many of the medals of honor during the Civil War period were for flag bearers. Oh, wow. The movement of the flag up and down the field during battle shows the front line of battle. And so capturing the flag or dropping the flag or carrying the flag was seen as very important because you needed to know where your line was, your military line was when you're in battle. And so if someone was killed, if the flag bearer was killed and the flag dropped, the men didn't know where they were, then there was chaos. And so somebody had to step up and actually pick that flag up again. And hold it. And hold it. And they're **Lizzie Peabody:** vulnerable because they're not armed because they're holding the flag. That's correct. More than 600,000 Americans died during the American Civil War, nearly as many as in every other American war combined. No family was untouched by death and sacrifice. And it was during this time that the flag went from being a utilitarian tool to a sacred icon. And **Marc Leepson:** this is the time in American history where what historians call the cult of the flag started. This is when we had the first movement for a National Flag Day holiday. This is when we had the Pledge of Allegiance written, 1892. --- ### [Family Story Turned National Myth By Canby And Weisgerber](https://share.snipd.com/snip/493f44c8-a575-46f7-8cb8-d479ed2b70c3) 🎧 13:52 - 17:03 (03:11) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/b497d696-abec-4590-8908-a965b0711020" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - William Canby publicly promoted the Betsy Ross story in an 1870 Historical Society of Pennsylvania speech based on family accounts. - Charles Weisgerber later reinforced the myth with paintings and museum promotion after buying the Betsy Ross house. #### 💬 Quote > This lady is the one to whom belongs the honor of having made with her own hands the first flag. > — William Canby (read by PJ Tabbit) Excerpt from William Canby's 1870 speech promoting Betsy Ross #### 📚 Transcript **Lizzie Peabody:** By this time, Betsy Ross was long dead. But her grandson, William Canby, he was alive and well. And he'd grown up hearing the story that his grandmother sewed the first American flag. So he might have thought, if people love the flag so much, Grandma Betsy should get some credit. So in 1870, he gives a speech to the Historical Society of Pennsylvania. Mr. **Marc Leepson:** President and the gentlemen of the Historical Society of Pennsylvania. **Lizzie Peabody:** This is a long speech that kind of goes on and on. For a tolerably full account of the colonies' flags. And on. leaders of the revolution were men of intelligence and experience in military. But then Canby drops a bomb. He tells the crowd that the Continental Congress actually adopted the American flag during a secret session in early 1776. And then he reveals who made the flag that General Washington presented during that secret meeting. Elizabeth Betsy Ross. This lady is the one to whom belongs the honor of having made with her own hands the first flag. And after a rousing speech like that, it's no wonder people were shouting the name Ross from the rooftops. Seriously, though, the Betsy Ross story took hold, mostly because Canby had really good timing. The country was healing after a brutal civil war, and having a single flag was a powerful symbol. Plus, America had plenty of founding fathers. Now it had a founding mother. So Betsy Ross was already on her way to becoming an American icon when something sealed her bonneted face forever in the collective American imagination. A painting. **Marc Leepson:** When I do talks, when I get to Betsy Ross, I say, you know, I know what you're thinking, right? And I know what they're thinking. They're thinking of that picture. You know, Betsy Ross sitting in her parlor on Arch Street. The flag is on her lap. A sunbeam is coming through, illuminating it. The Flag Committee of the Continental Congress is hovering over her. **Lizzie Peabody:** You've probably seen this painting at some point in your life. It was even on stamps in the 1950s. For me, it was in that fourth grade social studies book. That **Marc Leepson:** picture is completely made up. **Lizzie Peabody:** The painting we all know was dreamt up by a guy named Charles Weisgerber. He painted the birth of our nation's flag more than 100 years after the scene supposedly took place. And it's entirely a product of his imagination. But accuracy wasn't Weisgerber's goal. It **Marc Leepson:** was part of Weisgerber's promotion of the Betsy Ross myth, and not coincidentally, the Betsy Ross house, which he owned and was his tourist attraction. So, I mean, I don't want to be cynical. **Lizzie Peabody:** It was part of his marketing plan. **Marc Leepson:** Listen, you're 100 percent right. **Lizzie Peabody:** Charles Weisgerber, marketing genius, was also apparently a Betsy Ross superfan. He loved her story so much, he bought her old house in Philadelphia and spent the rest of his life promoting her legacy. --- ### [Betsy Ross As Professional Government Contractor](https://share.snipd.com/snip/383a0526-f987-4f21-8769-c7001cace678) 🎧 18:10 - 23:01 (04:50) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/62df8e8c-0212-47da-9d09-1e58bc1a8aa2" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - Marla R. Miller reconstructs Betsy Ross as a commercial upholsterer and contractor who hustled for government work during 1776. - Miller suggests Ross likely taught Washington a simpler way to cut a five-pointed star and later bid on flag contracts. #### 💬 Quote > I always say, like, it's Betsy Ross government contractor is what we need to be thinking. > — Marla R. Miller Marla R. Miller on Betsy Ross's role as an upholsterer and contractor #### 📚 Transcript **Lizzie Peabody:** Marla Miller didn't plan to write a book about Betsy Ross. She just wanted to read one. But when she went off in search of a good biography, all she found were children's books and a whole bunch of other weird stuff. You'll **Marla R. Miller:** see salt and pepper shakers with like a little mini Betsy Ross. There's many, many dolls and all kinds of silliness. **Lizzie Peabody:** There's a Pez head that comes out. There's a Betsy Ross Pez head? There's a Betsy Ross Pez head. So Miller figured if there's no book on Betsy Ross, maybe she should just write one. And she did. She's the author of Betsy Ross and the Making of America. And there's one thing she thinks we should all know about Betsy Ross. She **Marla R. Miller:** was a badass. That's how I like to think about her. Betsy Ross got the job done. **Lizzie Peabody:** Ross was hustling and sewing her entire life. She started working when she was a teenager to help support her family. **Marla R. Miller:** She was the eighth of their 17 children. Oh my gosh. Hold on. What? Yeah. Not all survived to adulthood, as is common in that time and place. But she was in the middle of a big family. Betsy **Lizzie Peabody:** was born Elizabeth Griscom. And at the age of 21, she rebelled against her strict Quaker upbringing. She ran away and married John Ross, who was not a Quaker. And this led her family to basically disown her. So she and John fled to the big city, Philadelphia. They opened up an upholstery shop, and things were really good for a couple of years, until John died in an explosion during the Revolutionary War. So **Marla R. Miller:** there she is. It's January of 76, and she's a young widow. And at that time, in the course of the Revolution, Philadelphia is fearful that the British Navy is going to appear. And so there is a mad scramble to create what's **Lizzie Peabody:** essentially the first navy. And what does the Navy need? You know, besides ships. That's right, flags. Anyone who could push a needle through a piece of fabric was competing for government contracts to sew these flags. It didn't matter if you were a dressmaker, a saddler, or an upholsterer. The government was desperate for flags. And Ross no longer had her family or a husband to help support her. She was desperate, too. And **Marla R. Miller:** I think that Betsy Ross saw that happening and wanted to get on the Rolodex for those contracts. And so I always say, like, it's Betsy Ross government contractor is what we need to be thinking. Betsy **Lizzie Peabody:** Ross, government contractor, wasn't sitting at home quietly sewing on her lap. She was out kicking butts and taking names. She sniffed tobacco, ran a commercial upholstery shop, and wasn't afraid to get her hands dirty. **Marla R. Miller:** It's pretty physical labor. I mean, this is one of the things that I appreciate about Betsy Ross, because we think of her as being this, you know, sedate little seamstress. But if you ever look upholstery tools, if you look at the needles that upholsterers use, they are wicked. Okay, **Lizzie Peabody:** so in the spring of 1776, Betsy Ross is out competing for these flag contracts, and George Washington needs a flag maker. The historical record is a little fuzzy here, but this is what Marla Miller thinks probably **Marla R. Miller:** went down. George Washington and two other members of the Continental Congress come to her shop. And they hand her a sketch and say, Could you make us one of these? And she looks at that and says, Well, yeah, these red and white stripes, they look good. And **Lizzie Peabody:** I see you have this field of stars and they have six points. And Betsy says, you know, the star should be five pointed, right? And they're like, yeah, we know, but it's really hard to make a five pointed star. And Betsy says, nothing easier. She pulls out, we don't know if it's fabric, **Marla R. Miller:** we don't know if it's paper, but she folds out a little scrap, just so, and with one snip of the scissors, out pops this five-pointed star. And so they, you know, applaud. They're there. That looks great. **Lizzie Peabody:** Love it. They all cheer. Marla Miller says this is most likely the Betsy Ross contribution to the American flag. General Washington couldn't figure out how to make a five-pointed star for his new flag. And she gave him some help. And she did it simply because she had the skills to pay the bills. --- ### [Notarized Family Accounts Built The Betsy Ross Claim](https://share.snipd.com/snip/f4e9a331-cf7a-44b1-919d-5d70918daa06) 🎧 24:00 - 26:08 (02:08) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/99ef1ef4-1aeb-42a9-a8e2-e73b23db535a" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - The notarized family testimonies collected in the 19th century formed the archival basis for the Betsy Ross claim, but they remain family stories. - Mark Leepson warns family recollections are the weakest historical evidence. #### 💬 Quote > The Betsy Ross story is based 100% on family stories. > — Marc Leepson Marc Leepson on the evidentiary basis for the Betsy Ross myth #### 📚 Transcript **Lizzie Peabody:** at this work. She would appreciate the work. But all we have to go on are the Ross family stories. Family **Marc Leepson:** stories are the least reliable form of historical evidence. This **Lizzie Peabody:** is historian Mark Leapson again. The **Marc Leepson:** Betsy Ross story is based 100% on family stories. And when historians judge the merits of historical evidence, you know what's on the bottom? Family **Lizzie Peabody:** stories. After all, families have a way of embellishing the accomplishments of their ancestors. But let's take a closer look at the story William Canby told the Pennsylvania Historical Society in 1870. Where did he get it from? **Marla R. Miller:** I always like to take it back a generation because he got the story from Betsy's daughter, Clarissa. Clarissa is in many ways the hero of this tale. **Lizzie Peabody:** Clarissa worked beside her mother in the upholstery shop for years. Doing what? Making flags. Miller says that by the mid-1800s, revolutionary heroes were starting to die of old age. And there were a ton of books being written about them. But Clarissa wasn't seeing her mom's name anywhere. And **Marla R. Miller:** so she allegedly sits her nephew down, William Canby, and says, I want you to take this down. This story **Lizzie Peabody:** is important. And she tells little Will how his grandmother showed the father of our great nation how to make a five-pointed star for the flag. And Canby is like, that is so cool. But what if people don't believe us? Is there any proof of this? And Clarissa's like, well, here's the deal. No, there really is no proof. And so **Marla R. Miller:** instead, he asked all of these relatives to go to an attorney, go to a notary, and tell the story as you remember hearing it. And then that became sort of the archival basis for the story as it was in 1870. So instead of letting this story **Lizzie Peabody:** get distorted generation to generation in a game of family telephone, the notarized accounts are like a voicemail from the past. --- ### [1857 Diary Star Doodle Corroborates Family Tale](https://share.snipd.com/snip/92ee9789-10ac-43eb-b6d4-9d464abee50e) 🎧 26:14 - 27:20 (01:06) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/70de7bd7-87bd-4ea5-8b41-5c2fb87a763e" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - Marla R. Miller found an 1857 diary doodle: artist Joseph Boggs Beal sketched a five-pointed star after hearing the Ross family account. - That sketch is a contemporaneous family-circulated clue that the five-point story circulated mid-19th century. #### 💬 Quote > At the bottom of this page is a five-pointed star. > — Marla R. Miller Marla R. Miller describing Joseph Boggs Beal's diary entry #### 📚 Transcript **Lizzie Peabody:** It's still something from a family member, but from another perspective. This is interesting. So one **Marla R. Miller:** of Betsy's extended family members is an illustrator named Joseph Boggs Beal. He was very important in the 19th century **Lizzie Peabody:** as an artist. While Miller was digging through the Ross family historical documents, she came across one of Boggs Beal's diaries. And while she was leafing through it, she found an entry from February 1857. Boggs Beals is heading over to Clarice's house for a big family gathering. All **Marla R. Miller:** the players are there. And in the diary, although he's an artist, there are no other doodles. At the bottom of this page is a five-pointed star. And I looked at that and it gave me a chill and it's hard not to think. He came home from that and wrote up, you know, his evening and that he heard a story that night about a five-pointed star. --- ### [Focus Beyond Firsts To Richer Historical Stories](https://share.snipd.com/snip/b4c64b3b-984c-453a-9404-e2dd452a538d) 🎧 27:57 - 29:29 (01:32) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/7de0300a-91c6-47f4-979e-9209f1f6d5a1" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - Stop fixating on who was 'first' and instead explore broader historical contributions and contexts. - Jennifer Locke Jones and Marla R. Miller advise focusing on perseverance, nuance, and the many flagmakers like Rebecca Young and Mary Pickersgill. #### 💬 Quote > I don't think that that's the way we should be thinking of history. It isn't always about the first. > — Jennifer Locke Jones Jennifer Locke Jones on shifting historical focus from firsts to nuance #### 📚 Transcript **Lizzie Peabody:** Miller says this is the problem with being fixated on the first, because we miss the rest of the story. Should we stop asking who sewed the first American flag? I would very **Marla R. Miller:** much love it if that happened. Why? It just derails more thoughtful and interesting conversations. You know, we have this tendency in our culture to want to look for firsts, and they're almost all flawed. So what really is the first one, and what does it tell us? I'm not sure it's a useful question. The first is just that **Jennifer Locke Jones:** it's a first, but it doesn't mean it's the most important. This is the Smithsonian's Jennifer Jones **Lizzie Peabody:** again. I **Jennifer Locke Jones:** don't think that that's the way we should be thinking of history. It isn't always about the first. It is about perseverance. And I think part of our work as historians is to give our history more nuance and add to that narrative, because that makes us more rich as **Lizzie Peabody:** a nation. Marla Miller, Mark Leapson, and Jennifer Jones all agree on one thing. Our history is too rich to fixate on a single accomplishment in any one person's life. This would be like focusing on an individual thread in an intricately woven tapestry. ---